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Sonic Keyboard wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

Turn one move and flat out
Turn two move and disembark
Turn three charge

So three turns to locked in combat, 1.5 to destination.

Disembarking and not being able to charge straight away, especially with a lack of LoS-blocking terrain, is just ringing the dinner bell. Getting to your target in 1.5 turns means nothing if you have to wait around an extra turn to get shot to bits, especially Tau shooting. It's silly not to admit Martel has a very solid point when it comes to BA v Tau, especially on a parking lot.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Disembarking and not being able to charge straight away, especially with a lack of LoS-blocking terrain, is just ringing the dinner bell. Getting to your target in 1.5 turns means nothing if you have to wait around an extra turn to get shot to bits, especially Tau shooting. It's silly not to admit Martel has a very solid point when it comes to BA v Tau, especially on a parking lot.

It's not just tau however, that's literally the case for ANYTHING assault focused army vs any shooting focused army.

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

Fair question.
BA Rhinos/Razorbacks/Landraiders take three turns to get Marines into melee, that means the Tau player can ignore them for at least two turns.

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

Using the 1d4chan tactic I mentioned on turn 2 you would disembark and shoot with the tacs in transports while the jump packs charged into CC after. Then turn 3 the tacs could get into CC too. So it would be turn 2 charge for the jump packs and turn 3 charge for the rest.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Disembarking and not being able to charge straight away, especially with a lack of LoS-blocking terrain, is just ringing the dinner bell. Getting to your target in 1.5 turns means nothing if you have to wait around an extra turn to get shot to bits, especially Tau shooting. It's silly not to admit Martel has a very solid point when it comes to BA v Tau, especially on a parking lot.

It's not just tau however, that's literally the case for ANYTHING assault focused army vs any shooting focused army.

Well, most of the assault oriented armies use fast units like bikes and thunderwolves or assault vehicles. BA have jump packs unis, drop pods which are more effective than trukks or raiders, and a formation with terminators that can assault even if they arrive by deep strike. Problem with BA against shooty armies seems to be that their units are quite expensive which means no MSU style and they can only field deathstars that are not as effective as the SW ones.

Jump packs and pods are NOT more effective than raiders and trukks, that's the problem.

Yes, the whole BA codex is basically overcosted in the 7th ed meta. Some worse than others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SolarCross wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

Fair question.
BA Rhinos/Razorbacks/Landraiders take three turns to get Marines into melee, that means the Tau player can ignore them for at least two turns.

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

Using the 1d4chan tactic I mentioned on turn 2 you would disembark and shoot with the tacs in transports while the jump packs charged into CC after. Then turn 3 the tacs could get into CC too. So it would be turn 2 charge for the jump packs and turn 3 charge for the rest.

This doesn't work too well after you lose a couple of Rhinos.

Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

I hate that Martel has hijacked this into a BA discussion...
But I don't know how you couldn't be competitive with BA if you ran a
Fleshtearers Strike Force - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 1 Troop, 1 FA
Optional: 1 HQ, 3 Troops, 1 Elite, 5 FA, 3 HS, Fortification, 1 Lord of War

+ HQ +

········Captain [Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Power fist, Storm shield]

········Chaplain [Auspex, Crozius Arcanum, Power fist]

+ Elites +

········Command Squad
············Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
············Veteran [Bolt Pistol, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
············Veteran [Bolt Pistol, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
············Veteran [Bolt Pistol, Grav-gun, Storm shield]
············Company Champion
············Sanguinary Novitiate

+ Troops +

········Cassor the Damned [Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod]

········Tactical Squad [Flamer, 4x Tactical Marine]
············Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
············Tactical Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]

+ Fast Attack +

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

········Bike Squad [2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker]
············Biker Sergeant [Bolt Pistol]

+ Heavy Support +

········Devastator Squad [4x Devastator Marine, 2x Grav-cannon with grav-amp, Rhino]
············Devastator Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Chainsword]

········Devastator Squad [4x Devastator Marine, 2x Grav-cannon with grav-amp, Rhino]
············Devastator Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Chainsword]

········Devastator Squad [4x Devastator Marine, 2x Grav-cannon with grav-amp]
············Devastator Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Well this is fuzzy actually.

Flamers and Blasts do not use the same rules for wound allocation. they differ. The ITC made a decision on this and so if you are playing in the ITC, they made them work the same. If you are not there actually IS a difference in how that works for blasts vs. Template weapons.

So It's easy to see how this debate gets started.

 Jancoran wrote:

My simple response is this: the "hate" isn't very well founded. What really happens is, people don't want to change . So they hate anything that makes them change. It isn't that Tau are any different than any other faction, its just that not taking the Tau abilities into account will definitely cause an opponent problems.

I personally have never used the Riptide Wing Formation. it is EXTREMELY good and probably the only thing i nthe codex that even DESERVES the hate, honestly. Even that Formation has the same achillese heel every Tau unit has: Not fearless, hates melee. So the formula for beating Tau hasn't changed since day one. Have Fast melee. If your opponent does not want to embrace this reality and pretends like "shooting is the only thing worth focusing on" well let them enjoy their dirt nap after playing you. But if they adjust, they will be just fine.

Play what you want. That's what I would tell you.

My simple response is that you are wrong.

Tau abilities: Overwhelming firepower, massed overwatch, ridiculously under priced MC and GMC units, army wide Ignores Cover.

How do I play? I have several different lists I love to use.
1: Kan Wall, 12 Kanz, 2 Dreadz and boyz/bikes in support
2: Speed Freak: LOTS of bikes MSU style with Pks and either Stormboyz or Boyz in Trukkz/BWs
3: Dakka Boyz: 5 Mek Gunz, Lootas, and maybe BWs with either Kill Kannons or Lobbas.
4: Foot sloggin: Lots and lots of cheap boyz models supported by MSU Bikes
5: Combinations of these.

So lets break this down, I always use terrain to my advantage because I have a 6+ armor save so DUH. Take that off your argument points list. Kan Wall won't function vs Tau because they will die en mass to SMS and missile pods not to mention Riptides. Plus they are slow and have short ranged weapons. So ALL my Walker are relegated to the Shelf vs Tau.

Speed Freaks: The only list that really stands a chance against Tau. I currently have 25 Bikes, soon to be 35. Running them MSU style either with Zhad as my warboss or using 2 CADS i can get 6 units of 4 bikes with 1 having 5 (Warboss/Zhad) The bikes and warboss eat up 750ish points and are supported by Boyz in Battle Wagons or Trukks depending on how I am feeling. The downside to this? Tau can delete 1-3 of my Bike squads PER TURN depending on their build. SMS, Ion Accelerator or even Massed Fire warriors can destroy bikes. The only success i have against Tau with this list is to HIDE EVERYTHING i can turn 1, Race up the field and hide again or flat out if I cant and then hope to god that the Tau don't eat my entire list in those 2 turns of shooting before I get a chance to retaliate. Once in Combat I have to ignore the riptides because the only model in each of those units who can do something to it is the PK Nob and with Over Watch, normal casualties and the Riptide getting to swing first I pretty much have to ensure that I hit a riptide with at least 2 units of boyz/bikes or it will win.

Dakka Boyz: Yeah instant lose. There's nothing that you can do versus tau with ork shooting.

Foot Sloggin.......not even funny. I have had a green tide eaten alive by Tau before it could cross the board.


So when you say change the way I play what you really mean is "I don't want to admit that my Army is OP as hell against the weaker factions and therefore I am going to give a lame version of L2P to justify my slaughter of Orks/BA/Nids."

Also, saying Riptides have the weakness of not having fearless is kind of lame in itself. they are LD 9. Try using a CC army that has LD 7 and get back to me. Plus, if you are really concerned that a riptide wing will run away or that the last riptide will need to roll Snake eyes to stay in combat you can always pay 3PTS to give it Heroic morale.

No, Tau deserve the hate they get, not because they force others to change the way they play, but because against an army that isnt in the TOP TIER its not really a game and more of a slaughter. Not to say that severely handicapped Tau lists are amazing but I have yet to play a game where my opponent didn't take at least 1 riptide and a squad of Missilesides.

Actually, you can deal with one Riptide and one squad of Missilesides with orks.

That said, don't try to reason Jancoran, I've tried before and the guy keeps on insisting that because he can beat worse players with bad lists using the best possible list etc. the army doesn't "suck".

He does that when you talk about any underdog, be it Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar, ... I think he likes the challenge - and that's fine - but doesn't understand that "barely playable" is very far from "on the same foot".

I can beat a single riptide and missilesides with BA, I'm not going to pretend I can't. Lascannons are actually useful vs missilesides.

morgoth wrote:
Actually, you can deal with one Riptide and one squad of Missilesides with orks.

That said, don't try to reason Jancoran, I've tried before and the guy keeps on insisting that because he can beat worse players with bad lists using the best possible list etc. the army doesn't "suck".

He does that when you talk about any underdog, be it Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar, ... I think he likes the challenge - and that's fine - but doesn't understand that "barely playable" is very far from "on the same foot".

lol, im sure any of my lists could easily beat a single riptide and a squad of missilesides, the problem is that they never come alone

My only success versus Tau (which is very little) has come against 1 new player and 2 other Tau players who the Dice god abandoned.

I know orks have a distinct lack of lascannons.

But orks do have tankbustas with S8 to kk it's (only AP2) and lootas. And power klaws

 Wolfblade wrote:
But orks do have tankbustas with S8 to kk it's (only AP2) and lootas. And power klaws

Tankbustas are armed with rokkitz S8 AP3 assault 1 Ranged 24. They are relatively cheap but they have 6+ armor and aren't worth shooting at MC. They also die to Tau EXTREMELY quickly and versus Riptides...yeah not worth it at all.

I don't know what KK is except Kan Klaws?

Lootas? S7 AP4 averaging 2 shots a turn and ranged 48, decent but again they die far to quickly verus Tau and can't do much versus Riptides or even Broadsides. PKs are great, just don't expect to ever use them.

May bad, should have been pk, stupid auto correct.

(Also, the rock it's really or he missilesides not the riptide.

Against a full in tourney list, orks will get crushed, but one riptide and missileside squad? That's a chance for the orks.

 Wolfblade wrote:
May bad, should have been pk, stupid auto correct.

(Also, the rock it's really or he missilesides not the riptide.

Against a full in tourney list, orks will get crushed, but one riptide and missileside squad? That's a chance for the orks.

True, but thats the problem....its a chance. I have to spam the best units in my codex (Warbikers) or at the least I have to play a specific way/field a specific build to have "a chance".

Against almost any faction orks can be a bit more picky with what they field. I have surprised a number of SM opponents with a Kan list. They spammed flamers and other anti-horde weapons and got stuck facing off against 12 kanz 2 dreadz and a Morkanaut. Against Tau there are no surprise lists, you either play the fastest MSU list possible or you lose.

That's a problem with the game though, or GW rather and their inability to balance anything. It's not inherently tau's fault that orks suck or BA suck. They'd have just as much trouble against SM/crons/eldar, possibly with less of a chance depending on the mission type.

I disagree. I don't struggle vs Crons nearly as much as Tau or Eldar. Tau have a pretty special niche with their cheap interceptor.

BA and Orks are assault armies in a shooting game.

GW could do one errata to help fix a lot of problems though and get rid of assault vehicles and just have all vehicles function as them so long as they do not come in via deep strike. suddenly those fast rhinos and BW would get ard tops and actually get those turn 2 assaults. Heck it would even buff some weaker units like banshees and khorne marines

morgoth wrote:
Actually, you can deal with one Riptide and one squad of Missilesides with orks.

That said, don't try to reason Jancoran, I've tried before and the guy keeps on insisting that because he can beat worse players with bad lists using the best possible list etc. the army doesn't "suck".

He does that when you talk about any underdog, be it Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar, ... I think he likes the challenge - and that's fine - but doesn't understand that "barely playable" is very far from "on the same foot".

To be fair, complaining about how unbalanced an army is won't change anything, but learning how to adapt to a changing meta/balance/list will actually achieve something. Some armies are easier to adapt with than others though.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
BA and Orks are assault armies in a shooting game.

I've been using Chaos for the past few months and just had my first game against Tau. Both of us made a couple mistakes, but despite some shocking Overwatch the Tau player called the game on turn two because everything was getting assaulted. The largest gun in my army is a Storm Bolter.

 Insectum7 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Actually, you can deal with one Riptide and one squad of Missilesides with orks.

That said, don't try to reason Jancoran, I've tried before and the guy keeps on insisting that because he can beat worse players with bad lists using the best possible list etc. the army doesn't "suck".

He does that when you talk about any underdog, be it Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar, ... I think he likes the challenge - and that's fine - but doesn't understand that "barely playable" is very far from "on the same foot".

To be fair, complaining about how unbalanced an army is won't change anything, but learning how to adapt to a changing meta/balance/list will actually achieve something. Some armies are easier to adapt with than others though.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
BA and Orks are assault armies in a shooting game.

I've been using Chaos for the past few months and just had my first game against Tau. Both of us made a couple mistakes, but despite some shocking Overwatch the Tau player called the game on turn two because everything was getting assaulted. The largest gun in my army is a Storm Bolter.

sounds like bad placement on your friend's part. against Chaos he should have been as far away as possible if you were mostly melee and have been moving away as things went. it also depends on your list though, if you are running 4 demon princes with 2++ rerollable then yes you will get there and wreck him, that is sort of a counter tau list.

I've been playing since 1985 and in all those years you always see the group of players who hate an army for cheese.....every edition.....every codex. It's always the same mentality and they hate when you disagree with them no matter how much sense you make.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Well this is fuzzy actually.

Flamers and Blasts do not use the same rules for wound allocation. they differ. The ITC made a decision on this and so if you are playing in the ITC, they made them work the same. If you are not there actually IS a difference in how that works for blasts vs. Template weapons.

So It's easy to see how this debate gets started.

There's still a definite contradiction in Barrage. A lot of people play the barrage rule of Line of Sight when allocating starts at the centre of the blast marker rather than the model that fired the blast. It's not hard for both players to overlook it - I lost a heap of Wolves to it about a month ago, didn't realise it for a turn and a half.

Here is a very friendly list

Cad------- farsighted enclaves

HQ: cadre fireblade: 60 points

Troops: crisis suit: 23 points

Troops: crisis suit: 23 points

Fast attack: y'hvara riptide with FNP: 265 points

Lord of war: tau'nar supremacy armor: 600 points

Riptide wing-----

Riptide with burst cannon, SMS and interceptor: 220 points

Riptide with burst cannon, SMS and interceptor: 220 points

Riptide with burst cannon and SMS: 215 points

Drone net----

4 squads of 4 marker drones: 224 points

This list is fairly fluffy and very friendly, it does alright though against wraith knight spam.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

sounds like bad placement on your friend's part. against Chaos he should have been as far away as possible if you were mostly melee and have been moving away as things went. it also depends on your list though, if you are running 4 demon princes with 2++ rerollable then yes you will get there and wreck him, that is sort of a counter tau list.

Nahh, just spells and some fast models. When you have units that can move 12, get moved 18 in the Psychic phase, and then run with taking the highest of 2d6, you can get anywhere on a 4x6 table pretty quickly.

 Jaxler wrote:
Here is a very friendly list

Cad------- farsighted enclaves

HQ: cadre fireblade: 60 points

Troops: crisis suit: 23 points

Troops: crisis suit: 23 points

Fast attack: y'hvara riptide with FNP: 265 points

Lord of war: tau'nar supremacy armor: 600 points

Riptide wing-----

Riptide with burst cannon, SMS and interceptor: 220 points

Riptide with burst cannon, SMS and interceptor: 220 points

Riptide with burst cannon and SMS: 215 points

Drone net----

4 squads of 4 marker drones: 224 points

This list is fairly fluffy and very friendly, it does alright though against wraith knight spam.

lol whut...

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Under blast it says it can wound and hit, then goes to say follow the rules for normal shooting. Which means out of LoS, no wound allocated.