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How is the blast wound discussion related in any way to Tau non cheesy list construction.

Because if you're playing Tau you better be sure to know the rules for your most iconic weapon on your most iconic model.

SemperMortis wrote:

My simple response is that you are wrong.

Tau abilities: Overwhelming firepower, massed overwatch, ridiculously under priced MC and GMC units, army wide Ignores Cover.

How do I play? I have several different lists I love to use.
1: Kan Wall, 12 Kanz, 2 Dreadz and boyz/bikes in support
2: Speed Freak: LOTS of bikes MSU style with Pks and either Stormboyz or Boyz in Trukkz/BWs
3: Dakka Boyz: 5 Mek Gunz, Lootas, and maybe BWs with either Kill Kannons or Lobbas.
4: Foot sloggin: Lots and lots of cheap boyz models supported by MSU Bikes
5: Combinations of these.

I'm wrong? You think fast melee isn't the answer? You feel that Dirge Casters, Howling Banshees and expert use of terrain and the like wont mitigate these terrible things about the Tau Empire? and Ignores cover isnt army wide. it can be stopped and any Tau General will tell you to kill the Markerlight support early if youre gonna waste time shooting the Tau.

But lets go down the road of what if there was an answer to beating Tau Empire. Where might that take us? A more productive one, i imagine.

Kanwall: doomed against Tau Empire. Dont do it any more. If that change doesn't sit well with you, it illustrates my point. Kanwalls havent been good for a very long time and that's not likely to change. Tau Empire arent responsible for that sucking. So yeah. Not a Tau issue.

Speed Freak: LOTS of bikes MSU style with Pks and either Stormboyz or Boyz in Trukkz/BWs: Actually not a terrible ploy against Tau empire. Play the objectives and this will be tough for the Tau to stop. Obsec is a thing, and Orks who reserve their forces AND MSU Obsec can weather the storm plenty long enough to simply be too much to kill in too little a window. RESERVES. key words. Interceptor is done WITHOUT markerlight support in 80% of the Tau lists so its actually better to take it that way than to take it while they have the support. Tau arent that accurate without it. HOWEVER.... You aren't presenting enough of a melee threat in any one unit to take advantage of the Tau weaknesses here. You need to hit hard in melee against Riptides. That means Klaws. That means ablative wounds aplenty. Fast Melee is the only thing you can do that's going to work and its got to be convincing melee. It also happens to work against a lot of other enemies besides so there is literally no down side. I dont like small ork units though. they dont bring enough melee to the table to really be the answer. You need Meganobz and HQ's and the like in there, which means possibly multiple detachments to get them in there. I sue two CAD's so I can get the characters I want.

3: Dakka Boyz: 5 Mek Gunz, Lootas, and maybe BWs with either Kill Kannons or Lobbas. Doomed to failure. Agreed. Trying to outshoot the competitive Tau Empire simply wont succeed, and this does not qualify as fast melee.

4. Love it. Heres why: Even the most fearsome Tau force (Dual Surges, with Riptide Wing attached, and Markerlights with some dudes just loitering around otherwise) cannot kill enough, fast enough when you have that much obsec and that much of it is so dirt cheap. Killing everything on the board can be fun but it doesnt necessarily win Tau the tournament. I ran a list like this and it was excellent against Tau empire. The reason it worked is because i took Ten Meganobz to the party along with a flood of Gretchen and Orks, one Bike unit for ultra fast super duper punching and added the character to it. Three claws in the biker unit did WORK and KEPT doing work. Did he try to kill it. Obviously. Did i use terrain to hide on the approach in round one? Definitely. Surges dont overwatch and so it was basically just a couple Riptides overwatching. totally fine. the 2x7 lootas, which was essentially all the shooting i really had, was dedicated to punching out his Markerlight support but other than that, nothing much to do but watch the bikes rip things up and the horde run to catch up behind trukks that work EXTREMELY well when you kill the Markerlights. suddenly the cover matters.

This should not be taken as some false modesty about the Tau Empire. I already said that the Tau Empire is good. What i will not concede is that it deserves the level of hate it gets. thats what i disagree with,.

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Under blast it says it can wound and hit, then goes to say follow the rules for normal shooting. Which means out of LoS, no wound allocated.

That doesn't make much sense to me. I'll look again when i'm home.

Yea, it is a contradictory rule. There was big thread on it in YMDC, people never agreed in the end :\

I can see it going both ways honestly.

 Jancoran wrote:


I'm wrong? You think fast melee isn't the answer? You feel that Dirge Casters, Howling Banshees and expert use of terrain and the like wont mitigate these terrible things about the Tau Empire? and Ignores cover isnt army wide. it can be stopped and any Tau General will tell you to kill the Markerlight support early if youre gonna waste time shooting the Tau.

Nope, I agree fast melee is the only answer my Ork army has to Tau. Unfortunately, it doesn't work about 90% of the time because the Tau can still out shoot and out maneuver those lists because JSJ.

 Jancoran wrote:

But lets go down the road of what if there was an answer to beating Tau Empire. Where might that take us? A more productive one, i imagine.

Kanwall: doomed against Tau Empire. Dont do it any more. If that change doesn't sit well with you, it illustrates my point. Kanwalls havent been good for a very long time and that's not likely to change. Tau Empire arent responsible for that sucking. So yeah. Not a Tau issue.

I agreed from the start that ALL Ork walkers are doomed against Tau. I still use it occasionally against other factions for the surprise factor and the target saturation factor. Its not that the change doesn't sit well with me its the fact that the Tau have literally removed 3 different units from my codex because they just won't function at all against them.

 Jancoran wrote:
Speed Freak: LOTS of bikes MSU style with Pks and either Stormboyz or Boyz in Trukkz/BWs: Actually not a terrible ploy against Tau empire. Play the objectives and this will be tough for the Tau to stop. Obsec is a thing, and Orks who reserve their forces AND MSU Obsec can weather the storm plenty long enough to simply be too much to kill in too little a window. RESERVES. key words. Interceptor is done WITHOUT markerlight support in 80% of the Tau lists so its actually better to take it that way than to take it while they have the support. Tau arent that accurate without it. HOWEVER.... You aren't presenting enough of a melee threat in any one unit to take advantage of the Tau weaknesses here. You need to hit hard in melee against Riptides. That means Klaws. That means ablative wounds aplenty. Fast Melee is the only thing you can do that's going to work and its got to be convincing melee. It also happens to work against a lot of other enemies besides so there is literally no down side. I dont like small ork units though. they dont bring enough melee to the table to really be the answer. You need Meganobz and HQ's and the like in there, which means possibly multiple detachments to get them in there. I sue two CAD's so I can get the characters I want.

You can't play the objective against Tau with this list unless you are running Zhadsnarks Biker boyz and are spamming MSU Bikes everywhere because if you try to outlast Tau with only 6 units of bikes and 4-6 units of boyz in Trukkz/BWs your going to last about 2-3 turns at most. Durability is a thing and Orks DO NOT HAVE IT. Yes the entire Tau faction has Ignores cover because markerlights, and since theres literally no chance of me getting rid of them all because Orks suck at shooting and my bikes are trying to hide I will be getting lit up with ignores cover weapons, most of which are at least AP4 so no saves of any kind.

 Jancoran wrote:
3: Dakka Boyz: 5 Mek Gunz, Lootas, and maybe BWs with either Kill Kannons or Lobbas. Doomed to failure. Agreed. Trying to outshoot the competitive Tau Empire simply wont succeed, and this does not qualify as fast melee.

I agreed from the start, so thats why I don't try to out shoot Tau. So I "changed" one of the ways I play because i know I won't ever win with it against Tau.

 Jancoran wrote:
4. Love it. Heres why: Even the most fearsome Tau force (Dual Surges, with Riptide Wing attached, and Markerlights with some dudes just loitering around otherwise) cannot kill enough, fast enough when you have that much obsec and that much of it is so dirt cheap. Killing everything on the board can be fun but it doesnt necessarily win Tau the tournament. I ran a list like this and it was excellent against Tau empire. The reason it worked is because i took Ten Meganobz to the party along with a flood of Gretchen and Orks, one Bike unit for ultra fast super duper punching and added the character to it. Three claws in the biker unit did WORK and KEPT doing work. Did he try to kill it. Obviously. Did i use terrain to hide on the approach in round one? Definitely. Surges dont overwatch and so it was basically just a couple Riptides overwatching. totally fine. the 2x7 lootas, which was essentially all the shooting i really had, was dedicated to punching out his Markerlight support but other than that, nothing much to do but watch the bikes rip things up and the horde run to catch up behind trukks that work EXTREMELY well when you kill the Markerlights. suddenly the cover matters.

That simply wouldn't happen. A surge can pretty much annihilate a mob of boyz in 1 turn, a Riptide wing which can shoot at different targets can easily decimate the rest of the Foot sloggin boyz which leaves just the MSU bikes and specialist squads alive and they won't last past turn 2. Meganobz are utter trash versus Tau, Tau can choose to either drown them in weight of fire or AP2 weapons.

 Jancoran wrote:
This should not be taken as some false modesty about the Tau Empire. I already said that the Tau Empire is good. What i will not concede is that it deserves the level of hate it gets. thats what i disagree with,.

Nope, they deserve that level of hate because as mentioned above with my anecdotal evidence, I have yet to come across a Tau player who doesn't bring at least 1-2 broken units. Most of them love to brag about how great they are at the game when for them its literally a game of sitting in the back of the table and remove units.

A Stormsurge is very innacurate without Markerlight support. Also, shutting it up with Bikers and three Klaws gets the job done. Space the characters out though so stomps cant get am all at once.

You can hate the Tau Empire all you like. The original poster should keep in mind that the orks arent one ofthe stronger codex's to begin with so to some extent, the hate depends entirely on what people choose to play. Dont let that discourage you.

The Tau Empire suffered for a very long time in the basement of 40K and I won with it then. Its truly become effective now and I play it now.

Bring the Greater Goods shining light to the universe!

 Jancoran wrote:
A Stormsurge is very innacurate without Markerlight support. Also, shutting it up with Bikers and three Klaws gets the job done. Space the characters out though so stomps cant get am all at once.

You can hate the Tau Empire all you like. The original poster should keep in mind that the orks arent one ofthe stronger codex's to begin with so to some extent, the hate depends entirely on what people choose to play. Dont let that discourage you.

The Tau Empire suffered for a very long time in the basement of 40K and I won with it then. Its truly become effective now and I play it now.

Bring the Greater Goods shining light to the universe!

The problem is getting them there. 3 PK Nobz or 1 Nob and 2 ICs with PKs in a Warbike squad or Nob bike squad = Primary target. 3 PK nobz without any other models to be ablative wounds is 210pts, for 3 models with T5 6Ws total and 4+ save no ++ or +++. yeah nah, not worth it.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Play without makerlights, then tau is fine.

That's like telling a Marine to play without chapter tactics or Gaurd to play without orders. Doable but really why?

Because he asked for Tau minus the cheese, and markerlights break all sorts of rules in the game, and make cover irrelevant.

Marker lights are not more cheesy than SM chapter tactics, Guard orders, ad mech canticles of the ommissiah / doctina imperitives. I'd take guard orders over markerlights anyday.

Guard can also negate cover using their orders and do alot more besides. Silent ignores cover exists on every close combat weapon in the game which is why tau really could use some means of putting ignores cover on their shooting because of all the factions they are the worse for CC.

I think sometimes people just cry cheese because they can't play for gak and can't admit it.

How would you make Tau balanced then? Skip the Kroot? LOL
I would freaking play guardsmen ANY day instead of marker spam gunlines. Its not a question of individual effectiveness of said unit, its about synergy, the cheesy kind of synergy.

I think sometimes people have their head too far up their rear to figure out what has the potential to be cheese and should avoid debating the subject alltogether.

It still comes down to Riptides and Stormsurges being undercosted. Period.

I wouldnt mind playing against riptides and stormsuges, if markerlight werent in it or being used alot. Hence making Tau minus the cheese.

The units with markerlights are mortal. The Riptides and Stormsurges can't be engaged with a remotely reasonable points cost of models for Orks or BA. You might be able to outscore them, but they're more likely to table you. I'd have to fight the tau at 1.25:1 or 1.5:1 pts to clear enough melee power to win. Tau are the defender every battle, and typically that alone is a 1.5X force multiplier.

Everything in warhammer is mortal. Just as tau are really crap in melee right... Just never get there, full BS overwatch support fire.

And yes tides and surges are overpowered/priced, but without marker spam atleast there is a chance, maybe even if he gets first turn.

I'd rather the Riptides/Stormsurges just cost a lot more as they should.

Riptides/Stormsurges are actually quite good in melee as well. You can't just send any old unit to take them out. Riptides beat the gak out my premiere CC units. Of course, my units aren't named TWC or Wulfen, so what did I expect?

As shameful as it is, BA are just terrible at fast melee in 7th ed. I guess that's just the reality here.

"Everything in warhammer is mortal."

If something takes 10X its point cost in resources to take out, it's effectively immortal. Because you lose the game trying to take it out.

Indeed they should, and as such imbalanced pricepoint wouldnt you rather meet them without markerlights support atleast? Or you dont belive markerlights makes any difference and you just kill the ML's off easely when its your turn?


Blood Angels, yeah, GW could have done a better job to say the least.

I target ML with everything every turn. Shooting their MCs is a waste. They are effectively immortal, regardless of what Tau players say. Do the math on them. It's nuts. You can't drop pod them. They'll just intercept you. Unfortunately, regular marine units kind of suck at shooting on a per point basis, so this doesn't really work too well, either.

BA should counter these fethers by being fast melee. But instead, we just get our faces shot off because marines have the durability of grots vs Tau. We don't have T5 multiple wound cavalry or invisibility or cheap invuln saves, so we're fethed. There is one specific BA build that does okay that involves a ton of lucius pods and dreads. But I'm not building that for the waning days of 7th. I'll just hope that GW does take a gak on me again in 8th.

Markerlights make a difference, but again, these can be removed from the table by reasonable use of force. They are much more vulnerable to assault than the MCs.

Last I played the game (a while back, mind you) the worst that Tau could bring to the table was the Riptide Wing/Stormsurge/Coordinated Fire without ITC nerfs (Coordinated Fire apparently got an official FAQ nerf at a later point while I was gone). As long as you don't bring those units or play with those rules, you should be fine for most games. You might want to bring a more sub-optimal list for facing certain factions or against certain players, like I was doing with my Eldar.

SemperMortis wrote:

Nope, I agree fast melee is the only answer my Ork army has to Tau. Unfortunately, it doesn't work about 90% of the time because the Tau can still out shoot and out maneuver those lists because JSJ.

It depends on how the Tau player is set up. If he's castled in a corner, thanks to Supporting Fire you are toast (bonus cheese points if he hides behind a Void Shield Generator). If he has his units more spread out across multiple objectives and/or has stuff hiding in reserves, you can rapidly pac-man your way through his more isolated units in melee. Thing is, you'll need multiple fast melee units or he can just play "avoid the deathstar" while shooting you to pieces all game.

Basically, don't play Tau with the standard book missions. Maelstrom or a modified version of such is the way to go; it makes the Tau player spread his units out and actually move or he'll lose on objectives.

SemperMortis wrote:
I agreed from the start that ALL Ork walkers are doomed against Tau. I still use it occasionally against other factions for the surprise factor and the target saturation factor. Its not that the change doesn't sit well with me its the fact that the Tau have literally removed 3 different units from my codex because they just won't function at all against them.

Believe me, it wasn't just Tau that made massed Ork walkers irrelevant. I once played my friendly Eldar list against a guy running a Kan Wall (possibly some dataslate or formation). It tabled him in three turns. And let's not even begin to discuss what even the most basic of Necron lists does to Kans...

SemperMortis wrote:
You can't play the objective against Tau with this list unless you are running Zhadsnarks Biker boyz and are spamming MSU Bikes everywhere because if you try to outlast Tau with only 6 units of bikes and 4-6 units of boyz in Trukkz/BWs your going to last about 2-3 turns at most. Durability is a thing and Orks DO NOT HAVE IT. Yes the entire Tau faction has Ignores cover because markerlights, and since theres literally no chance of me getting rid of them all because Orks suck at shooting and my bikes are trying to hide I will be getting lit up with ignores cover weapons, most of which are at least AP4 so no saves of any kind.

It depends on the markerlight source and how many markerlight sources the Tau player brought. A Mark'O Commander will pump out enough markerlights to bring most any deathstar to its knees, but will struggle against MSU unless he has redundant sources for markerlights.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
4. Love it. Heres why: Even the most fearsome Tau force (Dual Surges, with Riptide Wing attached, and Markerlights with some dudes just loitering around otherwise) cannot kill enough, fast enough when you have that much obsec and that much of it is so dirt cheap. Killing everything on the board can be fun but it doesnt necessarily win Tau the tournament. I ran a list like this and it was excellent against Tau empire. The reason it worked is because i took Ten Meganobz to the party along with a flood of Gretchen and Orks, one Bike unit for ultra fast super duper punching and added the character to it. Three claws in the biker unit did WORK and KEPT doing work. Did he try to kill it. Obviously. Did i use terrain to hide on the approach in round one? Definitely. Surges dont overwatch and so it was basically just a couple Riptides overwatching. totally fine. the 2x7 lootas, which was essentially all the shooting i really had, was dedicated to punching out his Markerlight support but other than that, nothing much to do but watch the bikes rip things up and the horde run to catch up behind trukks that work EXTREMELY well when you kill the Markerlights. suddenly the cover matters.

That simply wouldn't happen. A surge can pretty much annihilate a mob of boyz in 1 turn, a Riptide wing which can shoot at different targets can easily decimate the rest of the Foot sloggin boyz which leaves just the MSU bikes and specialist squads alive and they won't last past turn 2. Meganobz are utter trash versus Tau, Tau can choose to either drown them in weight of fire or AP2 weapons.

To be fair, the Tau player Jancoran fought against in this example wasn't applying his firepower very intelligently. That unit of Lootas should have been ctrl+alt+deleted by the Stormsurge in the first Tau shooting phase, or at least made to run. With the best Ork shooting unit negated, the Riptide Wing goes all-in on the Biker unit it is dead. Stormsurge hoses the rest of the list down.

SemperMortis wrote:
Nope, they deserve that level of hate because as mentioned above with my anecdotal evidence, I have yet to come across a Tau player who doesn't bring at least 1-2 broken units. Most of them love to brag about how great they are at the game when for them its literally a game of sitting in the back of the table and remove units.

Alternatively, fight fire with fire. Tau player wants to bring a Stormsurge? You can bring out a Stompa and enough Ork bodies to fill the points difference. Tau player busts out a Riptide Wing? Bring whatever crazy formation you want. Tau player refuses to a little army parity adjustment? Don't play him.

If the Tau players on here are to be believed, there are Tau players who don't take the most OP cheese units to every fight.

I'm still looking for my crazy formations... I've got like 20-25 mediocre ones.

I own IKs, but they are joke compared to undercosted Tau MCs. I would rarely ever use an IK in a general list. They are too fragile/pt.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still looking for my crazy formations... I've got like 20-25 mediocre ones.

I own IKs, but they are joke compared to undercosted Tau MCs. I would rarely ever use an IK in a general list. They are too fragile/pt.

Sounds like its time to bust out Ye Olde Apocalypse Rules to find something truly crazy for Blood Angels. After all, just because it isn't tournament legal doesn't mean it can't be used in casual play if your opponent consents.

Nah I mostly do tourney preps for the other guys. I don't have time. Or an army, really.

Stompa is another Ork walker....it doesn't function in even remotely competitive environments. 770pts for an AV13 12HP walker that has 1 good weapon and a bunch of crappy ones.

Ohh an for that 770pts it doesn't even get a fething Invul save. Of course I could take a big mek and give him the MFF so the Stompa has a 4++....of course thats another 100pts added to the already over priced Stompa that doesn't bring much to the table to begin with.

Orks have zero answers to Tau Cheese. We have a chance of winning with speed freak lists but that is about it.

Martel732 wrote:
It still comes down to Riptides and Stormsurges being undercosted. Period.

The stormsurge is 440 points in its optimal form. Saying thats undercosted with t6 and only 3+ armor is crazy. Effective? Yeah, like every 440 point unit its good. But its very far from unkillable like some comparable units can become. Nope. Wulfen, at 440? Oh hell yeah. Thundercavalry? Ig blobs with psyker/priests? Renegade Knights with void shield support. The list goes on.

T6 and 3+ armor says no.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It still comes down to Riptides and Stormsurges being undercosted. Period.

The stormsurge is 440 points in its optimal form. Saying thats undercosted with t6 and only 3+ armor is crazy. Effective? Yeah, like every 440 point unit its good. But its very far from unkillable like some comparable units can become. Nope. Wulfen, at 440? Oh hell yeah. Thundercavalry? Ig blobs with psyker/priests? Renegade Knights with void shield support. The list goes on.

T6 and 3+ armor says no.

You forgot to mention the 5+++ FnP that come standard for GMC.

But even at 8 wounds, 3+/4++/5+++ seems somewhat vulnerable at 440 pts, so I don't disagree with your conclusion...

I can still note that Stormsurges aren't limited in their firepower until their last wound is removed, while multi-model units like Wulfen and Thundercav have their effectiveness reduced for ever 1 or 2 wounds they fail, as a benefit to fielding Stormsurges/Riptides/etc., right?



Edit: to address the OP: avoid netlists, and you've got a decent chance of avoiding the worst of the worst in terms of cheese.

If you really need to avoid cheese, take no more than 1 of any unit, not counting Troops, with the important caveat that you avoid multi-model Stormsurge units.

1 Stormsurge and 1 Riptide is potent but not gamebreaking. 2 Stormsurge and 3 Riptides can be problematic, so, y'know, don't do that gak.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still looking for my crazy formations... I've got like 20-25 mediocre ones.

I own IKs, but they are joke compared to undercosted Tau MCs. I would rarely ever use an IK in a general list. They are too fragile/pt.

Sounds like its time to bust out Ye Olde Apocalypse Rules to find something truly crazy for Blood Angels. After all, just because it isn't tournament legal doesn't mean it can't be used in casual play if your opponent consents.

We're allowed to use Apoc formations?
Since when?
Didn't read that properly.

The D Missles of a Stormsurge are single use, they only need realistically 1 turn to earn their points back, any survivability or melee ability is just a bonus.

The offensive power of a Stormsurge is ridiculous for its cost, the fact that it has just enough durability to use it almost guaranteed every-time is what makes it broken. If the Stormsurge was ANY more survivable you would see people start taking the D-Shotgun and have in march up the field.

 Quickjager wrote:
The D Missles of a Stormsurge are single use, they only need realistically 1 turn to earn their points back, any survivability or melee ability is just a bonus.

The offensive power of a Stormsurge is ridiculous for its cost, the fact that it has just enough durability to use it almost guaranteed every-time is what makes it broken. If the Stormsurge was ANY more survivable you would see people start taking the D-Shotgun and have in march up the field.

It requires surviving markerlights to activate the D nature of their missiles. It requires being within 10" (after the 12" move phase movement) to be within the D Shotgun range.

Beyond that, it requires targets worthy of a D weapon for the Stormsurge's D weaponry to be worthwhile - not a guarantee by any means.

Stormsurges wouldnt even BE necessary in any list if people werent taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, Storm lords, Buzzgobs version of a stompa, Magnus, Belakor and the list goes on. But they do. The Stormsurge isnt the issue at 440. The claim that its undercosted is simply absurd. Its not only expensive but it relies on YET more points, no less than 8 Drones hitting to maximize its potential, as others pointed out.

Riptide Wing is kinda nuts. Its one Formation. Just dont use that formation as I have chosen to do and you will be fine.

I wish we could just play the game and bask in how awesome it is instead of always ending up in...this... place. oh well

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurges wouldnt even BE necessary in any list if people werent taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, Storm lords, Buzzgobs version of a stompa, Magnus, Belakor and the list goes on. But they do. The Stormsurge isnt the issue at 440. The claim that its undercosted is simply absurd. Its not only expensive but it relies on YET more points, no less than 8 Drones hitting to maximize its potential, as others pointed out.

Riptide Wing is kinda nuts. Its one Formation. Just dont use that formation as I have chosen to do and you will be fine.

I wish we could just play the game and bask in how awesome it is instead of always ending up in...this... place. oh well

The thing is, we don't disagree - if there weren't targets worthy of the D the Stormsurge has access to, the Stormsurge wouldn't be considered so potent in the first place.

But frankly, ignoring the reality that is the Riptide wing (or dismissing it as "its one Formation" as if that changes its prevalence in the overarching reality of gaming in WH40k), even when one doesn't individually exploit the blantent potency of the formation... is just... I dunno, it just seems silly.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It still comes down to Riptides and Stormsurges being undercosted. Period.

The stormsurge is 440 points in its optimal form. Saying thats undercosted with t6 and only 3+ armor is crazy. Effective? Yeah, like every 440 point unit its good. But its very far from unkillable like some comparable units can become. Nope. Wulfen, at 440? Oh hell yeah. Thundercavalry? Ig blobs with psyker/priests? Renegade Knights with void shield support. The list goes on.

T6 and 3+ armor says no.

All of those things should also probably cost more as well. TWC: way undercosted. IG psykers: undercosted. Wuflen: WAY undercosted. Void shields: undercosted.

I say yes despite T6 and 3+ armor because GMC USRs are so damned obnoxious as are its weapons systems. 440 is a joke for a GMC, just as 295 is. GMCs have layered saves you can't get rid of. It's also got what? 8 wounds? Not every 440 pt unit is remotely this good. You specifically cherry picked up other undercosted units to compare it to. I can't field anything remotely as effective for 440, nor can Orks, for example.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurges wouldnt even BE necessary in any list if people werent taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, Storm lords, Buzzgobs version of a stompa, Magnus, Belakor and the list goes on. But they do. The Stormsurge isnt the issue at 440. The claim that its undercosted is simply absurd. Its not only expensive but it relies on YET more points, no less than 8 Drones hitting to maximize its potential, as others pointed out.

Riptide Wing is kinda nuts. Its one Formation. Just dont use that formation as I have chosen to do and you will be fine.

I wish we could just play the game and bask in how awesome it is instead of always ending up in...this... place. oh well

Because it's not awesome. It's okayish. Because GW has no math skills. Trying to say the thing is fair at 440 is freaking nuts. You're just spoiled by 7th ed undercosted GMCs and MCs. Miscosted units get spammed and abused.

"taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, "

These units are terrible compared to GMCs of the same cost or cheaper. That's my point. Oh noes I've got to inflict 6 12 AV glances. Whatever shall I do? IKs are so fragile as to *almost* be a liability. Their pricing does not line up with MCs/GMCs.

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurges wouldnt even BE necessary in any list if people werent taking IMPERIAL Knights, Renegade Knights, Storm lords, Buzzgobs version of a stompa, Magnus, Belakor and the list goes on. But they do. The Stormsurge isnt the issue at 440. The claim that its undercosted is simply absurd. Its not only expensive but it relies on YET more points, no less than 8 Drones hitting to maximize its potential, as others pointed out.

Riptide Wing is kinda nuts. Its one Formation. Just dont use that formation as I have chosen to do and you will be fine.

I wish we could just play the game and bask in how awesome it is instead of always ending up in...this... place. oh well

honestly buzzgob's stompa is about how much a stompa should cost but is forced to take subpar weapons. gaze is cool and all but hitting on 5's, can pay 100 points for another gun beyond big shootas, and while it can do some dmg in close combat with d and stomps av13 and having to pay to get any kind of inv save on top of its price makes it. nice but not on the same level as the more points efficient titans and GMC. personally I prefer a custom stompa but it gets up to around 855 points before kff, mekz, and lootaz with meks. I go flame belcha, head, tccw, deffcannon w/ supergatler, deth arsenal, power field, repair crew, supercharger, 2x tl shootas all in he runs over 1k but always a laugh on the table throwing out ungodly firepower and if my opponent is smart just completely ignored whiel the res tof my army disappers (and they try and stay out of LOS).