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We wont agree and thats fine. 440 is not an unfair price for it. Sorry. You can pop 8 wounds on it in one turn. Its been done many times, with far less impressive units pulling the trigger.

Tau Empire is strong and you need to take its strength into account. Claiming you cant beat it is simply absurd. As a started this conversation and will repeat here: the enemy has necessitated it in Tau lists, not the other way around. And fast melee is your answer. embrace it or suffer the consequences. Even Blood Angels can deep strike terminators in on it and charge the round they show up. So other than an unwillingness to change, I think we will just have to disagree. This is kind of going nowhere and its just becoming a "uh huh" and then "nuh uh" situation. No winning on this one.

Deep striking a terrible unit (45ppm, really?), getting intercepted, and then trying to assault is not a solution to Tau empire. It's not unwillingness to change, it's that your proposed solution does not work in practice. It's not as simple as "fast melee". It has be cost effective, high durability/pt fast melee. Some lists just don't have this. I guess I'm expected to stick Celestine out in front of a squad at this point.

"You can pop 8 wounds on it in one turn. Its been done many times, with far less impressive units pulling the trigger. "

The odds are heavily against this for most lists. Layered saves that can not be removed are brutal. We're talking 43 B4 melta shots or lascannon shots to kill it one turn. Or 8 relentless grav cannons. This is why Tau gets hate that you don't understand. For 440. 43 lascannons or 8 grav cannons. 440. We have very different definitions of fair.

I've beaten Tau, but only through ridiculous, unreproduceable luck, or with lists that aren't practical vs the field.

"Tau Empire is strong and you need to take its strength into account"

If I had choices that let me do that, I would. But I can't manage a 440 pt unit that sucks up 43 lascannons/8 grav cannons/100's of CC attacks.

6x Grav Cannons with rerolls to hit. Not that tall of an order.

Any kind of fast psychic deathstar will also crush a Stormsurge.

I don't know why you even bother listing Lascannons. You know they don't work right? You've done the math. That's why tourney BA players bring things like Meph and Lib Dreads to deal with GMCs, alongside Relentless Grav.

Not even Eldar is consistently bringing mono-faction lists this point. Allies are a necessity at this point.

Your refrain "why even play BA with allies" -- that's TRUE. Tourney players aren't fluff/faction snobs, and that's why players don't always play hardcore meta games.

"6x Grav Cannons with rerolls to hit. Not that tall of an order. "

I wouldn't say that, but okay.

I've never understood the fascination with lib dreads because they are very expensive and die very quickly.

All of the ally combos ever won't make 440 a fair price for a Stormsurge. Nor will it make 200 whatever fair for a Riptide. They need to be significantly more expensive to reflect their capabilities better.

How expensive are 43 Lascannons?

The difference is a Lib Dread can actually kill something if it makes CC.

Yoyoyo wrote:
How expensive are 43 Lascannons?

The difference is a Lib Dread can actually kill something if it makes CC.

I don't even know how to get 43 lascannons on the table.

That's a HUGE if, because everyone knows it's dangerous. It and its big ol 3 hull points. I can understand the concern if they had a more reasonable number like 6 hull points. That would make them more on par with MCs in terms of durability.

Librarian Dreadnaught: Can’t cast powers in a vehicle, so be wary of that. But he is the bane of monstrous creatures with his Force weapon. I have seen people drop this guy down near some stormsurges then completely annihilate them in CC

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/12/10/space-marinesfast-attack-lucius-pattern-dreadnaught-droppod/

I don't know what to say Martel. You probably know you are stubborn as hell. Either try new stuff, or don't. It's your 40k, after all.

Biker librarian with force axe and psychic shriek attached to a minimal scout biker squad is the neatest way for a space marine to kill a riptide / surge (or other tough MC). Scout bikers are LoS meat shields that give the lib Scout to help him gain position. The bike helps survivability T+1 + Jink and more importantly mobility to enable him to get within 18" of the beast for psychic shriek. Psy shriek auto-hits ignores toughness, armour save, cover saves, fnp and inv and has the potential to do up to 9 wounds to a riptide in a single casting. If you roll low and it does nothing then you slap force on your axe and charge in. Instant death on your ap2 weapon means you only have to do 1 unsaved wound to kill it. The unit comes in tons cheaper too pointwise.

Sadly BA don't have direct access to Psychic Shriek, but then allies for any IoM are an easy thing.

Also Toughness is approximately equal to AV - 4 so T6 is only equivalent to about AV10 (except even S3 can wound T6 whereas AV10 is immune to S3 while at the other end S9+ wounds T6 on a 2+ but auto-glances AV10).

An AV12 front Dread in CC is equivalent to T8, an AV13 Dread is T9.

I've tried a bunch of new stuff. I guess financially speaking and thematically speaking, I'm drawing the line at dreadnoughts cowering in FW pods. I'm still not convinced that this flavor-of-the-week scheme won't be shut down by minor meta adjustments, either. It's still just a bunch of hp 3 vehicles at the end of the day. No saves, much less layered saves. I've fought against lucius pods and didn't find them that hard to deal with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SolarCross wrote:
Biker librarian with force axe and psychic shriek attached to a minimal scout biker squad is the neatest way for a space marine to kill a riptide / surge (or other tough MC). Scout bikers are LoS meat shields that give the lib Scout to help him gain position. The bike helps survivability T+1 + Jink and more importantly mobility to enable him to get within 18" of the beast for psychic shriek. Psy shriek auto-hits ignores toughness, armour save, cover saves, fnp and inv and has the potential to do up to 9 wounds to a riptide in a single casting. If you roll low and it does nothing then you slap force on your axe and charge in. Instant death on your ap2 weapon means you only have to do 1 unsaved wound to kill it. The unit comes in tons cheaper too pointwise.

Sadly BA don't have direct access to Psychic Shriek, but then allies for any IoM are an easy thing.

Also Toughness is approximately equal to AV - 4 so T6 is only equivalent to about AV10 (except even S3 can wound T6 whereas AV10 is immune to S3 while at the other end S9+ wounds T6 on a 2+ but auto-glances AV10).

But T6 magically stops something from being doubled out by anything in game, which makes the FNP unremovable. T6 is leagues better than AV 10, especially when layered saves come into the picture. Toughness is much better than AV because of saves. S3 CAN wound T6, but is very unlikely to do through the armor saves.

Martel732 wrote:


But T6 magically stops something from being doubled out by anything in game, which makes the FNP unremovable. T6 is leagues better than AV 10, especially when layered saves come into the picture. Toughness is much better than AV because of saves. S3 CAN wound T6, but is very unlikely to do through the armor saves.

T6 does not stop instant death only it prevents instant death from double strength weapons. Instant Death from Force still kills T6+ and denies FnP. Against Force on a ap2 weapon the riptide only has its inv to prevent losing all its wounds at once.

Force does nothing at all to AV. AV can take some saves: inv and cover saves. They don't get an armour save but that is moot in most cases as high AP weapons (bolters and lasguns) usually can't harm them at all because of their are low strength or because high strength weapons usually are also low AP which would ignore even good armour saves (like 3+ / 2+) anyway. AV is only worse than equivalent Toughness against middling strength weapons with modest or no AP: autocannons & multilasers. That said vehicles tend to have higher AV than MC toughness. An Av 14 Landraider is like T10.

 SolarCross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


But T6 magically stops something from being doubled out by anything in game, which makes the FNP unremovable. T6 is leagues better than AV 10, especially when layered saves come into the picture. Toughness is much better than AV because of saves. S3 CAN wound T6, but is very unlikely to do through the armor saves.

T6 does not stop instant death only it prevents instant death from double strength weapons. Instant Death from Force still kills T6+ and denies FnP. Against Force on a ap2 weapon the riptide only has its inv to prevent losing all its wounds at once.

Force does nothing at all to AV. AV can take some saves: inv and cover saves. They don't get an armour save but that is moot in most cases as high AP weapons (bolters and lasguns) usually can't harm them at all because of their are low strength or because high strength weapons usually are also low AP which would ignore even good armour saves (like 3+ / 2+) anyway. AV is only worse than equivalent Toughness against middling strength weapons with modest or no AP: autocannons & multilasers. That said vehicles tend to have higher AV than MC toughness. An Av 14 Landraider is like T10.

Good luck getting your force weapon to a Stormsurge or Riptide. Most deathstars even buckle to Tau shooting. And you can guess what their target will be.
Whenever I use a list with librarians vs Tau, they are the first things to die. Frequently before they even get to move if Tau get first turn.

Not having an armor save on AV is crippling. I don't know what game you've been playing, but non-free vehicles are basically garbage now. Your AV 14 LR is by far the worst unit in my codex.

Martel732 wrote:

Not having an armor save on AV is crippling. I don't know what game you've been playing, but non-free vehicles are basically garbage now. Your AV 14 LR is by far the worst unit in my codex.

That is because 90% of players play Space Marines so if you are going to play 40k 90% of your opponents will have AV on anything tougher than infantry and no MC at all. So it makes sense to maximise on melta/armourbane/High RoF S6-8 meagre AP shooting and leave all the MC hunting tricks at home. Certainly for a TAC list. Tau MC are not cheese they are just meta-resistant.

 SolarCross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Not having an armor save on AV is crippling. I don't know what game you've been playing, but non-free vehicles are basically garbage now. Your AV 14 LR is by far the worst unit in my codex.

That is because 90% of players play Space Marines so if you are going to play 40k 90% of your opponents will have AV on anything tougher than infantry and no MC at all. So it makes sense to maximise on melta/armourbane/High RoF S6-8 meagre AP shooting and leave all the MC hunting tricks at home. Certainly for a TAC list. Tau MC are not cheese they are just meta-resistant.

I play against lots of MCs all the time. They are far more troublesome than any vehicle. I maximize my MC killing power, and still usually fail. Because wants BA to carry melta. For their cost, Tau MCs are super cheese. They are far too cheap.

Martel732 wrote:
Good luck getting your force weapon to a Stormsurge or Riptide. Most deathstars even buckle to Tau shooting.

No, they don't.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/03/40k-tournament-championship-top-16-lists.html

Two Riptide Wings allied into other armies, no Stormsurge, no Tau primaries.

How many psychic armies do you see? Screamerstar took the win btw.

Martel732 wrote:
All of those things should also probably cost more as well. TWC: way undercosted. IG psykers: undercosted. Wuflen: WAY undercosted. Void shields: undercosted

I'd agree on every other example you mention, but as for the IG psykers bit... are you sure about that?

50 points for a T3 W2 model with a 5+/5++, for 50 points. Yep, a warp charge, a primaris power plus one randomly generated power, but for another 25 points you can obtain, get this, another warp charge and another randomly generated power! What a steal! Those librarians and their power armor and their bikes don't stand a chance against the undercosted-ness of the Primaris Psyker!

Seriously, IG's HQ psykers are balanced, if not just a little overcosted. They are very expensive given how incredibly fragile they are, but are generally effective force multipliers. It doesn't make guardsmen they buff way OTT OP though. It's still mostly just lasgun shots. Except those rare occasions where they sometimes Rend (and do you really think giving IG infantry an option to deal with those crazy tough MCs is really gamebreaking? Or maybe those occasions where you can get that 4++ on a blob. Regular guardsmen getting a 50/50 non-rerollable save (unless you're in combat and you get a priest hymn off, which is actually fairly difficult to accomplish)? Inconceivably cheesy, am I right? Guardsmen should come off the table as soon as the opponent looks at them funny, right?

Unless you're referring to the Elites choice Wyrdvane Psykers, in which case I'm not even sure where to begin.

 KommissarKiln wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All of those things should also probably cost more as well. TWC: way undercosted. IG psykers: undercosted. Wuflen: WAY undercosted. Void shields: undercosted

I'd agree on every other example you mention, but as for the IG psykers bit... are you sure about that?

50 points for a T3 W2 model with a 5+/5++, for 50 points. Yep, a warp charge, a primaris power plus one randomly generated power, but for another 25 points you can obtain, get this, another warp charge and another randomly generated power! What a steal! Those librarians and their power armor and their bikes don't stand a chance against the undercosted-ness of the Primaris Psyker!

Seriously, IG's HQ psykers are balanced, if not just a little overcosted. They are very expensive given how incredibly fragile they are, but are generally effective force multipliers. It doesn't make guardsmen they buff way OTT OP though. It's still mostly just lasgun shots. Except those rare occasions where they sometimes Rend (and do you really think giving IG infantry an option to deal with those crazy tough MCs is really gamebreaking? Or maybe those occasions where you can get that 4++ on a blob. Regular guardsmen getting a 50/50 non-rerollable save (unless you're in combat and you get a priest hymn off, which is actually fairly difficult to accomplish)? Inconceivably cheesy, am I right? Guardsmen should come off the table as soon as the opponent looks at them funny, right?

Unless you're referring to the Elites choice Wyrdvane Psykers, in which case I'm not even sure where to begin.

I thought they were cheaper than that, being IG models. Okay, that's pretty reasonable. I"m not sure what a 440 pt IG squad looks like exactly, then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Good luck getting your force weapon to a Stormsurge or Riptide. Most deathstars even buckle to Tau shooting.

No, they don't.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/03/40k-tournament-championship-top-16-lists.html

Two Riptide Wings allied into other armies, no Stormsurge, no Tau primaries.

How many psychic armies do you see? Screamerstar took the win btw.

Daemons are really good. Probably better than Tau, even. But that doesn't prevent Tau from having some unfair models. It just means demons have even more, or theirs are more exploitable.

Or, psychic powers > markerlights/riptides.

Keep in mind that psychic deathstars generally a good counter to tau.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Or, psychic powers > markerlights/riptides.

Keep in mind that psychic deathstars generally a good counter to tau.

That's mainly due to built-in rerollable invulns or access to invisibility. But yes, that's why those two things are super common.

Martel732 wrote:
Deep striking a terrible unit (45ppm, really?), getting intercepted, and then trying to assault is not a solution to Tau empire. It's not unwillingness to change, it's that your proposed solution does not work in practice. It's not as simple as "fast melee". It has be cost effective, high durability/pt fast melee. Some lists just don't have this. I guess I'm expected to stick Celestine out in front of a squad at this point.

"You can pop 8 wounds on it in one turn. Its been done many times, with far less impressive units pulling the trigger. "

The odds are heavily against this for most lists. Layered saves that can not be removed are brutal. We're talking 43 B4 melta shots or lascannon shots to kill it one turn. Or 8 relentless grav cannons. This is why Tau gets hate that you don't understand. For 440. 43 lascannons or 8 grav cannons. 440. We have very different definitions of fair.

I've beaten Tau, but only through ridiculous, unreproduceable luck, or with lists that aren't practical vs the field.

"Tau Empire is strong and you need to take its strength into account"

If I had choices that let me do that, I would. But I can't manage a 440 pt unit that sucks up 43 lascannons/8 grav cannons/100's of CC attacks.

Let me be clear on what you just said: You have a unit that you can use...you dont want to. You have Celestine...and you dont want to use her either. You can bring allies to help but you dont wanna'. You dont THINK a Stormsurge can be torrented...so it must not be able to be torrented? You think three Kataphron squads cant get it done? They can. You think three Power Klaws and a lucky stikk wont? It will. My sisters of Battle army can bring it down in one go and you're asking me to think its indomitable.

No. I think i wont buy into the hysteria..

the REALITY of 40K is simple: threats exist that necessitate the Stormsurge in order to defeat them. it is an unfortunately expensive model that requires another 200 points to play at full excellence (either in the form of the Buffmander + Droneswarm or else the Drone-Net). Your army has answers. "I dont wanna use them" is an unacceptable answer. I dont wanna use the Stormsurge +200 points but guess what? I need to.

So at some point you have to stop bemoaning the need for change and...just...change.

I said it won't work. Big difference. Even with assault from deep strike BA terminators are cripplingly expensive for such fragile models. 45 ppm for T4 W1? No, thanks. YOU try using them. These things won't touch Tau after the interceptor fire clears.

"My sisters of Battle army can bring it down in one go"

How?

" You think three Power Klaws and a lucky stikk wont? It will."

I doubt this, but I doubt you'll get there even more.

Celestine.. maybe? Doesn't seem like she really helps that much vs Tau as she herself can't do anything to them and can only protect one squad for being Tau-loled off the table.

What happened to lesser codices being able to hang with just the general? None of your "answers" are actually from my army. In which case, why bother putting any BA on the table at all?

Martel732 wrote:
I said it won't work. Big difference. Even with assault from deep strike BA terminators are cripplingly expensive for such fragile models. 45 ppm for T4 W1? No, thanks. YOU try using them. These things won't touch Tau after the interceptor fire clears.

"My sisters of Battle army can bring it down in one go"

How?

" You think three Power Klaws and a lucky stikk wont? It will."

I doubt this, but I doubt you'll get there even more.

Celestine.. maybe? Doesn't seem like she really helps that much vs Tau as she herself can't do anything to them and can only protect one squad for being Tau-loled off the table.

What happened to lesser codices being able to hang with just the general? None of your "answers" are actually from my army. In which case, why bother putting any BA on the table at all?

Your "doubt" has no bearing on the subject, but you express it frequently.

Sisters of Battle are IDEAL for killing a Stormsurge or anything big like it. they can lay down about 30 STR 8 AP 1 shots on it in turn one. It goes down super fast.

Ive flat our proven the orks can kill it with the bikers as ablation. Ive had it done to me as well. Twas a bummer. Turn two...splat. I even have a hilarious picture of a Buzzgob Stompa smashing my unwounded Stormsurge and getting four six's. sigh.

Celesting and her friends can soak all the overwatch for you if thats your concern and then the real threat can kill the Stormsurge without her. interceptor is cool and stuff, but its without the help of markerlights. what you can do is have units shoot from an angle that takes the nearest Tau models away from the Surge. Clear out those within 6" of it before charging and charge with more than one unit. Your formation lets you drop and attack wit hthree units. So why wouldnt you.

Despair isn't a reason. Thats all Im saying Martel.

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Blast markers can cause hits, and when you roll to wound you can create a pool of infinite wounds. But under the wound allocation rules, unless you have permission via barrage, ignore LOS (like tau SMS homing rule, or magnus) you are not allowed to allocate those wounds to units you cannot see. so you might have 150 wounds to apply, but barring a special condition, you cannot allocate those wounds to anyone you cannot see. so you have 149 wasted wounds, or that 1 guy got really shot to death 150 times over.


And to the OP, just have fun rocking rail rifle pathfinders, piranhas, and burst cannon crisis suits.

"So why wouldnt you. "

Because the units I have to purchase to do so are terrible and ineffective for their cost.
Also, bringing OIF is an autolose vs SW or demons.

" but its without the help of markerlights"

Drone net is all the rage in my group unfortunately. I haven't figured out a way around this.

Martel732 wrote:
"So why wouldnt you. "

Because the units I have to purchase to do so are terrible and ineffective for their cost.
Also, bringing OIF is an autolose vs SW or demons.

" but its without the help of markerlights"

Drone net is all the rage in my group unfortunately. I haven't figured out a way around this.

The point was...the Stormsurge is not so cheap when you consider the cost of the Drones to make it awesome.

Also, Drone nets are NO LESS than 224 points. a StormSurve 440, and Riptide wing is about 700 points fully decked out with FnP, its toughest version. Add leader. Remaining points is likely around 300-400 points to spend. the list writes itself when you do that. Farsight Crisis drops for Obsec most likely.

Pretty good. dual Stormsurge is even more restrictive obviously and scary as it should be but oh so few models on the board.

Knowing those two builds are likey the most powerful you will see, you know the starting point as the opponent for planning.

With so few SIGNIFICANT models to kill, the likely priority is the Riptide Wing. Easiest to charge, easiest to stay in melee with for a round and get freed on the opponents turn if luck holds out and they were wise enough to use their Nova Reactor for shielding instead of shooting.

ill pm you my thoughts on a list for this. I don't have the codex so i hope my points are correct. You can look it up and tell me if Im off.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Blast markers can cause hits, and when you roll to wound you can create a pool of infinite wounds. But under the wound allocation rules, unless you have permission via barrage, ignore LOS (like tau SMS homing rule, or magnus) you are not allowed to allocate those wounds to units you cannot see. so you might have 150 wounds to apply, but barring a special condition, you cannot allocate those wounds to anyone you cannot see. so you have 149 wasted wounds, or that 1 guy got really shot to death 150 times over.


And to the OP, just have fun rocking rail rifle pathfinders, piranhas, and burst cannon crisis suits.

My copy of the rules specifically states blasts can hit AND wound models out of line of sight. Sounds like permission to me.

Yea then it says follow normal shooting rules; so you hit, you wounded, but you can't allocate out of LoS.

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Blast markers can cause hits, and when you roll to wound you can create a pool of infinite wounds. But under the wound allocation rules, unless you have permission via barrage, ignore LOS (like tau SMS homing rule, or magnus) you are not allowed to allocate those wounds to units you cannot see. so you might have 150 wounds to apply, but barring a special condition, you cannot allocate those wounds to anyone you cannot see. so you have 149 wasted wounds, or that 1 guy got really shot to death 150 times over.


And to the OP, just have fun rocking rail rifle pathfinders, piranhas, and burst cannon crisis suits.

My copy of the rules specifically states blasts can hit AND wound models out of line of sight. Sounds like permission to me.

You are correct, then can hit, and can "wound" (as in add more numbers of wounds), which puts wounds in a wound pool. But to allocate those wounds to models, check out the wound allocation section of BRB. Without LOS on models to apply wounds from the wound pool, those bonus wounds go to waste. So infinitely large non-barrage, now LOS ignoring blast marker hits an infinite number of models, but solely 1 is in line of sight, then the infinite number of wounds -1 (or whatever it takes after saving throws) are not allowed to wound models out of LOS per the allocating wounds rules in brb.

And no, it doesn't make sense that an explosion would say, "ahh dang, the guy that shot me can't see you, guess you're safe this time," but it is the rules per wound allocation.

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Martel I am telling you, you can't allocate wounds out of LoS even if it is a blast. The only thing that can do that are stomps, barrage, or specific LoS ignoring rules like that one psyker geokinesis ability.

Edit: I remember the argument now for LoS wound allocation.

Under blast, it specifically says you can.

Blast markers can cause hits, and when you roll to wound you can create a pool of infinite wounds. But under the wound allocation rules, unless you have permission via barrage, ignore LOS (like tau SMS homing rule, or magnus) you are not allowed to allocate those wounds to units you cannot see. so you might have 150 wounds to apply, but barring a special condition, you cannot allocate those wounds to anyone you cannot see. so you have 149 wasted wounds, or that 1 guy got really shot to death 150 times over.


And to the OP, just have fun rocking rail rifle pathfinders, piranhas, and burst cannon crisis suits.

My copy of the rules specifically states blasts can hit AND wound models out of line of sight. Sounds like permission to me.

FAQ. As I mentioned before, the core rules have templates and blasts working differently.

 Wolfblade wrote:
It's not just vs tau. It's against ANYTHING shooty army. No LOS blocking terrain is inherently unfair for an assault army.

I won't play a game unless there is LOS blocking terrain (and impassable terrain). Having units just move and shoot all over the board is just ridiculous. Movement and positioning should matter.

Games with no LOS blocking terrain are ridiculously unfair to melee armies to the point where there is no point in even playing. The board should always have several pieces of LOS blocking terrain (and not tiny pieces, but significant ones).

ITC tournament standard is an LOS blocker in the middle as well as 25% around the rest of it. We got out our Gekkalculators and figured out that with the three standard deployment zones, the best way to arrange a board was buildings at 45 degree angles towards the center point, and an LOS blocker in the middle. this created the maximum chance fora fair deployment zone, given the three primary types of deployment. Fun fact.