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It's not actually a parking lot. There's a lot of COVER, just not LOS-blocking. I find it a little broken that the board has a look a certain way to get a fair game vs Tau. Especially when the BRB says nothing about how much terrain to use.

It's not just vs tau. It's against ANYTHING shooty army. No LOS blocking terrain is inherently unfair for an assault army.

A normal game of 40K has 20-25% terrain, some of which has to be LOS blocking, otherwise, wtf is the point of even having LoS in the game?

Previous BRBs were clear on the 20-25% and so far it has proven to be a good starting point.

Martel732 wrote:
I find it a little broken that the board has a look a certain way to get a fair game vs Tau.

But if shooty armies have LOS over all of the board they have an immediate advantage, Tau or not. It's a shooting gallery vs anyone who has to get close and that seems a bit unfair to me when shooting is already good. Some LOS blocks would at least make them think a bit about their deployment and give shorter-ranged armies a chance to get into effective range.

Maybe GW should have codified this.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe GW should have codified this.

Or maybe you could "forge the narrative" and bring along a couple of pieces of LOS blocking terrain of your own. Buy somebody's unwanted terrain off of ebay or bring along a couple of shoe boxes if you don't want to spend much.

Are you both agreeing to not use Los terrain, or just your opponent who didn't want to? Because that's probably a large reason why your BA never survive past turn one apparently

 Wolfblade wrote:
Are you both agreeing to not use Los terrain, or just your opponent who didn't want to? Because that's probably a large reason why your BA never survive past turn one apparently

its more of if he doesn't agree he loses out on a large portion of his opponenets cause they want no los breaking terrain. So game breaking setup vs no games

There's usually a little, but i can't put much behind it. It doesn't help that blasts only need to see one model.

kambien wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
Are you both agreeing to not use Los terrain, or just your opponent who didn't want to? Because that's probably a large reason why your BA never survive past turn one apparently

its more of if he doesn't agree he loses out on a large portion of his opponenets cause they want no los breaking terrain. So game breaking setup vs no games

sounds better to not play honestly, nothing but frustration from being target practice.

Sikplex wrote:
So I've been interested in starting Tau (1500pt?) and after reading through forums etc it seems lile they get a lot of Hate.
I've yet to play against one(beginner) or see a Tau army.

Now, I don't need my army to be full competitive- I want to be able to enjoy playing it without cheese!

So I was thinking maybe just 1 Riptide? And basing my army on infantry/ stealth suits?

What would a generic list look like without the Riptide spam and cheese?

And is the Start Collecting box a good start?

Thanks guys.

My simple response is this: the "hate" isn't very well founded. What really happens is, people don't want to change . So they hate anything that makes them change. It isn't that Tau are any different than any other faction, its just that not taking the Tau abilities into account will definitely cause an opponent problems.

I personally have never used the Riptide Wing Formation. it is EXTREMELY good and probably the only thing i nthe codex that even DESERVES the hate, honestly. Even that Formation has the same achillese heel every Tau unit has: Not fearless, hates melee. So the formula for beating Tau hasn't changed since day one. Have Fast melee. If your opponent does not want to embrace this reality and pretends like "shooting is the only thing worth focusing on" well let them enjoy their dirt nap after playing you. But if they adjust, they will be just fine.

Play what you want. That's what I would tell you.


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ALSO: for help on the less cheesy stuff, visit my blog. I focus it a lot of the road less travelled, so you can dig through the posts and see what you can find in the weay of help there. =) http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/

I don't think its quite that easy in 7th. I think your criterion should be fast durable melee. TWC and wraiths are viable, asm are not. You can naysay me, but I maintain that durability/pt is a critical stat when facing off against Tau. BA and Orks just don't have it.

I also have to put a qualifer on the statement that riptides hate melee when they can beat almost any unit in my fast melee codex, including my Sanguinary guard or death company. They are particularly effective against the ragged remnants of squads that make it to the Tau deployment zone. It's good to be an MC.

Furthermore, I'd say base riptides deserve every ounce of hate they get because of their mathematical reality. Very undercosted unit.

Despite this, I'd still probably play what you want. BA players and Ork players should be used to getting decimated by Tau now.

Martel plays against a bunch of WAAC idiots but doesn't think it's their fault for playing overpowered lists or filling the table with advantageous terrain. He blames GW for giving them the option to do it instead of the players for being jerks.

So he goes to his store or plays his friends and has a miserable time and has grown bitter.

 Lance845 wrote:
Martel plays against a bunch of WAAC idiots but doesn't think it's their fault for playing overpowered lists or filling the table with advantageous terrain. He blames GW for giving them the option to do it instead of the players for being jerks.

So he goes to his store or plays his friends and has a miserable time and has grown bitter.

Blaming people for playing to win seems silly. Other games don't require people to self-nerf. They also don't have so much of the game hinge on something like terrain, which isn't purchased with points or quantifiable. It's actually quite valuable to have huge sections of the board blocked off, yet no points are paid for that privilege. Tau players pay points for their shooty units. It is more fair for them to just be turned off by a free board element? I don't see a good to fix for this other than charging points for terrain and making it part of a list.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think its quite that easy in 7th. I think your criterion should be fast durable melee. TWC and wraiths are viable, asm are not. You can naysay me, but I maintain that durability/pt is a critical stat when facing off against Tau. BA and Orks just don't have it.

Ironic you mention that Martel: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/03/musings-on-speed-vs-power.html

Martel732 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Martel plays against a bunch of WAAC idiots but doesn't think it's their fault for playing overpowered lists or filling the table with advantageous terrain. He blames GW for giving them the option to do it instead of the players for being jerks.

So he goes to his store or plays his friends and has a miserable time and has grown bitter.

Blaming people for playing to win seems silly. Other games don't require people to self-nerf. They also don't have so much of the game hinge on something like terrain, which isn't purchased with points or quantifiable. It's actually quite valuable to have huge sections of the board blocked off, yet no points are paid for that privilege. Tau players pay points for their shooty units. It is more fair for them to just be turned off by a free board element? I don't see a good to fix for this other than charging points for terrain and making it part of a list.

There are rules for how terrain gets placed and players are supposed to be alternating putting pieces down. Whether the piece is advantageous for you and penalizing for them is up to you with what pieces you pick and where you place them. Do your opponents refuse to play you/give you crap if you bring some of your own legal terrain and place it according to the rules? Then yeah, blame the players.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think its quite that easy in 7th. I think your criterion should be fast durable melee. TWC and wraiths are viable, asm are not. You can naysay me, but I maintain that durability/pt is a critical stat when facing off against Tau. BA and Orks just don't have it.

Ironic you mention that Martel: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/03/musings-on-speed-vs-power.html

So do you agree or disagree that tau is a brutal matchup for ba?

 Lance845 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Martel plays against a bunch of WAAC idiots but doesn't think it's their fault for playing overpowered lists or filling the table with advantageous terrain. He blames GW for giving them the option to do it instead of the players for being jerks.

So he goes to his store or plays his friends and has a miserable time and has grown bitter.

Blaming people for playing to win seems silly. Other games don't require people to self-nerf. They also don't have so much of the game hinge on something like terrain, which isn't purchased with points or quantifiable. It's actually quite valuable to have huge sections of the board blocked off, yet no points are paid for that privilege. Tau players pay points for their shooty units. It is more fair for them to just be turned off by a free board element? I don't see a good to fix for this other than charging points for terrain and making it part of a list.

There are rules for how terrain gets placed and players are supposed to be alternating putting pieces down. Whether the piece is advantageous for you and penalizing for them is up to you with what pieces you pick and where you place them. Do your opponents refuse to play you/give you crap if you bring some of your own legal terrain and place it according to the rules? Then yeah, blame the players.

I dont recall ever having an alternating terrain thing in the 7th edition book. Wheres that listed? Tournaments generally place the terrain. In casual games the host does and at the store someone usually sets it up and just asks the other guy if he likes it or not.


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Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think its quite that easy in 7th. I think your criterion should be fast durable melee. TWC and wraiths are viable, asm are not. You can naysay me, but I maintain that durability/pt is a critical stat when facing off against Tau. BA and Orks just don't have it.

Ironic you mention that Martel: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/03/musings-on-speed-vs-power.html

So do you agree or disagree that tau is a brutal matchup for ba?

I've never seen your list, even after the 100 millionth complaint about them. Lol. I am sure you are familiar with my point of view on Codex's winning games. They don't. So if you are talking about a specific matchup, I could comment if you provide a basic pic of the board and your army lists in front of me. As I have mentioned, VASSAL is very handy for showing thing like this. For example, a matchup one guy on Dakkadakka got into it with me on, that I then simulated, is pictures here:



I am willing to agree that the Blood Angel Codex requires a higher degree of skill to win with, because its units lack some of the options that make the others attractive. What does that mean? You actually have to PLAY the game and not just roll dice at peoples face like some armies like Eldar attempt and I also think the Blood Angels have some very cool unique units that are really where they shine.

I have multiple lists that I use. I don't have a single list. Just as there is not a single board set up. But I'll try to scribble down the next one.

Martel732 wrote:
I have multiple lists that I use. I don't have a single list. Just as there is not a single board set up. But I'll try to scribble down the next one.

I tend to crate a "Master list" from which I deviate a little as new threats become apparent. That way I "know" my list very well and the changes are minor enough to assimilate without taking away from that familiarity. I find that armies get easier to win with the more you use the same general pattern because you're not forgetting things or getting distracted by all the new stats and things you have to keep in mind.

That is off topic however. Sorry, original poster. As this pertains to Tau Empire, my favorite force, I'd say start with a really good core and start learning how to win with what you enjoy playing. the more familiar you get with it, the more you can imagine how little changes would help. I learned to REALLY be good using Tau Pathfinders for example. I also was one of the only Tau Generals I know who plays without Crisis Suits for most of my Warhammer career. I dabbled here and there, but I found that other units were more fun to use in order to gain the same results. My use of Sniper Drones is a rarity with most Generals as well. Many own them. Almost no one fields them.

So Theres lots of ways to win, but some require you to get more familiar and skilled with them than other more push button units. Still fun though if you dont mind learning and are getting lots of practice games in.

Martel732 wrote:
There's usually a little, but i can't put much behind it. It doesn't help that blasts only need to see one model.

...the blast would kill only one model due to how LoS Wounds interaction takes place.

Spetulhu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it a little broken that the board has a look a certain way to get a fair game vs Tau.

But if shooty armies have LOS over all of the board they have an immediate advantage, Tau or not. It's a shooting gallery vs anyone who has to get close and that seems a bit unfair to me when shooting is already good. Some LOS blocks would at least make them think a bit about their deployment and give shorter-ranged armies a chance to get into effective range.

Space Wolves and GSC are currently making a mockery of fields like that.
The less terrain there is the easier it is for the Wulfen boosted TWC and Cult Ambushes to slip past the cheap outer defences and start breaking the expensive and useful stuff. Terrain becomes negotiable "If you can't see through it I can't charge through it" becomes something to genuinely consider rather than something to scoff at.
Martel - how many people play Space Wolves or GSC where you play?

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's usually a little, but i can't put much behind it. It doesn't help that blasts only need to see one model.

...the blast would kill only one model due to how LoS Wounds interaction takes place.

That's genuinely stupid. It's not like an explosion would avoid somebody because the firer can't see them.

Not really sure about BA as I don't play them and I don't see a BA player here since a lot of time, but orks can win against tau. Maybe a 100% overpowered list breaks them most of the times, but against a typical competitive list orks can definitely win. Just play superfast MSU, you won't get tabled with 25 kill points and you can score a lot of points. Typical eldar and supercheesy SM are almost impossible for orks, not tau. Yes tau are better on average than orks but the gap between those armies is not that huge.

 Blackie wrote:
Not really sure about BA as I don't play them and I don't see a BA player here since a lot of time, but orks can win against tau. Maybe a 100% overpowered list breaks them most of the times, but against a typical competitive list orks can definitely win. Just play superfast MSU, you won't get tabled with 25 kill points and you can score a lot of points. Typical eldar and supercheesy SM are almost impossible for orks, not tau. Yes tau are better on average than orks but the gap between those armies is not that huge.

Orks get across the board in massed trukks to assault in MSU. BA have the wonderful choices of podding in and hiding behind their Drop Pods, hoping the Tau blow them up so whatever doesn't die in the explosion can try to charge across the 7" minimum at the Tau lines, get overwatched back another couple of inches then getting shot up completely in the next Tau shooting phase because they could no longer get a model to make combat.
Alternatively they pod in lotsa Dreads with lotsa flame templates and lotsa Lucius Pods.
They can't really swarm the Tau like Orks can.

BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's usually a little, but i can't put much behind it. It doesn't help that blasts only need to see one model.

...the blast would kill only one model due to how LoS Wounds interaction takes place.

That's genuinely stupid. It's not like an explosion would avoid somebody because the firer can't see them.

I just looked it up. Blasts can kill out of los just like i thought.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it a little broken that the board has a look a certain way to get a fair game vs Tau.

But if shooty armies have LOS over all of the board they have an immediate advantage, Tau or not. It's a shooting gallery vs anyone who has to get close and that seems a bit unfair to me when shooting is already good. Some LOS blocks would at least make them think a bit about their deployment and give shorter-ranged armies a chance to get into effective range.

Space Wolves and GSC are currently making a mockery of fields like that.
The less terrain there is the easier it is for the Wulfen boosted TWC and Cult Ambushes to slip past the cheap outer defences and start breaking the expensive and useful stuff. Terrain becomes negotiable "If you can't see through it I can't charge through it" becomes something to genuinely consider rather than something to scoff at.
Martel - how many people play Space Wolves or GSC where you play?

Two sw, no gsc.


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 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

I've done that. I use all of these things. But not having access to free anything an in fact paying extra for fast backfires. In my view, its actually easier to win with de because they have assault transports.
I
I don't own any lucious pods and im not messing with that so close to 8th.

I'm willing to accept that tau are a mathematical sweet spot vs ba, even more than other lists. Cheap intercepting ias is just too much.

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

Fair question.
BA Rhinos/Razorbacks/Landraiders take three turns to get Marines into melee, that means the Tau player can ignore them for at least two turns.
Bikes and Jump Packs are both in the fast attack slot meaning you need to take two troops for every four units.
BA don't have access to a Landspeeder that can transport and the rest take up fast attack slots.

If you use pods you can threaten with everything on turn two.

In Dawn of War or Vanguard Strike Orks can threaten with everything on turn one or threaten everything on turn two, it minimises cooperative overwatch, they're also attacking with a heap of small, cheap units that can still match or beat Fire Warriors or Drones in melee.

Overwhelming firepower meets overwhelming numbers.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
BA have a few other ways to get across the table than pods:

Fast Rhinos / Razorbacks
Bikes Scout and Regular
Jump packs
Land Speeders

I couldn't comment on how effective they are compared with pods against Tau but they are options.

How about making LOS blocking terrain out of your transports? 1d4chan/tactics mentions this:

A useful tactic when using Razorbacks is to have them two or three abreast, filled with tactical troops with heavy flamers and a squad of assault marines with jump packs behind, using the vehicles for cover. Being a fast vehicle, the Razorbacks can race forward 12", firing their main weapons, whilst the assault marines use their JP to keep up. Once close enough, the tactical marines get out and hose the enemy with fire, whilst the assault marines mop up in CC.

Fair question.
BA Rhinos/Razorbacks/Landraiders take three turns to get Marines into melee, that means the Tau player can ignore them for at least two turns.

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

morgoth wrote:

Any transport can move 18" a turn and gets about 1" of free pivot.

How do you take three turns exactly?

Turn one move and flat out
Turn two move and disembark
Turn three charge