Makes me a little bit jealous as Orks.

Seriously though, 50 man Conscript squads just don't die, and then with FRSRF commands/fall back and shoot commands, they can get SO many shots (4 shots each at 12", up to 200! ). And here I was thinking Ork Shoota Boyz were shooty.

Throw in some Manitcores/Wyverns, and maybe a super heavy; you've got so much firepower - and that's before the Heavy Weapon Team spam. XD

Not sure if I'm complaining or not - That amount of firepower just decimates 30 man squads, even with a 5+ KFF. Even if you get to melee, they fall back, and shoot you with everything they've got.

I think I need more Kommando squads to tie things up; but terrain can make it tough to get there in melee (-2 charge distance is brutal).

Thoughts on dealing with IG shooting as an Ork, and in general?

Now imagine trying to fight them as Death Guard with 7 models per 50 Conscript unit...

I'm unsure how to fight IG as any army currently. Better tacticians who have a better knowledge of the Indexes will probably comment soon but I am having a hard time seeing anyone beat a semi well built IG list.
Hopefully the rumour about IG infantry units going up in point cost comes true

I could care less about the IG. I have no idea how to deal with the nids who can get charges on turn one and have tons of Monstrous Creatures who shred you.

IG wouldn't need a points increase instead they just need the conscripts maximum squad sizes reduced. Way to early to ask for nerfs before the rules are even out.

That sounds utterly fearsome; I may have to add an infantry blob or two as allies just to give me an excuse to paint some Cadians.

Broxus, the rules are out. You can go to a store and check out their shop copy.

@Tiberius501

Yeah; I'm not sure what a 7 man squad would do vs 50 Conscripts. Average math says that 50 Conscripts at 1 shot each will do on average a total of 1.8 unsaved wounds versus Sv3+; but this can spike incredibly high depending how the dice fall.

And that's only 1 shot each - realistically it'll be 2-4 shots each, depending on range (thanks orders!).

Hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+, with Conscripts receiving their 5+ save has you looking on average to need about 150.15 shots to clear out a full squad in one go - an unrealistic amount of firepower for any army to deliver upon a single unit.

But this thread isn't just about Conscripts - it's about the entire combined might of the Astra Militarum.

I agree with you, I think any army will have a hard time beating a semi-decently built AM/IG army - they can field so many solid infantry and vehicles together, that it's nearly impossible to deal with it all in a reasonable manner. Vehicles are much more durable nowadays, and can output a ton of firepower (looking at you Taurox Prime, with your 20 Taurox Gatling shots); Manticores, Wyverns, and Basilisk will ruin your day from across the table, without line of sight, and get anywhere from 1-4d6 per unit.

We'll see what the first FAQ holds, along with the Codexes.

My perspective is only from an Ork players, but let me tell you, it doesn't feel fun when the AM/IG can bring... more of everything to the table than you - infantry, durable tanks (and more of them), better deep striking troops (plasma scions > everything) - and their units have better BS, range, and damage at a cheaper price. I realize I'm complaining about a gunline army being able to outshoot a horde army (one with notoriously poor to-hit); but when you do reach melee, and then they just fall back AND shoot your face in with the retreating squad, plus the rest of the army, it's just :shrug:. And don't even get me started on the super heavies/titans they can bring to the table - good luck dealing with them via Tankbustas.

I'd like Orks to be able to do more than just push a tide of models forward and hope you get lucky enough to have them miss most of their shots before you hit melee. I want to roll a lot of dice, even if I don't hit much, with my guns - and not feel like the only thing I can ever do is hope to get in melee with my faction, at the cost of being able to do anything else.

Maybe Orks aren't for me as a faction - but I doubt that's the case; I love the lore, I love the models, and I love the general hilarity that is the Ork faction as a whole. And when the green tide hits melee... :CHOPPA:

Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

Well first of all, you will have a hard time finding an IG player who is running around with hundreds of conscripts. Few have the patience to field/paint that many. Secondly, I already told you how to beat IG as orks in the other thread:

My brother is an ork player. Here is the advice I have given him:

You have no other option but to rush. IG excel at range & our artillery decimates. The faster you get into melee, the better.

If your opponent is using tanks he will be wasting most of his points on them. Bring some cheap transports/warbuggies etc & just charge & smash into them. If they have a screen of conscripts, just use weird boy jump & shoot open a pocket to get your vehicles through. They will be forced to keep falling back, unable to shoot. Meanwhile the rest of your boyz advance & tear them apart.

If he has mostly infantry you need to think of your opponent like an M&M. Hard outer shell, soft inside. If you break through their initial conscript outer line you can push in & wipe out HWT's etc. How? Use several weird boyz that teleport in lots of shootas etc. Use splitfire, choose your targets wisely & you will catch many out of cover meaning you will likely kill them. You can also throw in some kommandos to create more chaos. Your remaining boyz need to be close behind ready to charge shortly after.

Yep. My leafblower guard is coming back. 150 guardsmen. All painted. I may add more depending on when I get the index and write the list.

fe40k wrote:


Seriously though, 50 man Conscript squads just don't die,

Wow man you are so cool the Conscripts meme

charge into them with rhinos/other high t vehicle? they'll have to fall back, yes they can use an order to now shoot but it uses up that order and defo stops them doing 4x shots.

I was fielding 200+ fully painted guardsmen in 7th and they generally did ok. I'm a bit worried that if I do the same thing in 8th people are just going to be more annoyed

 DoomMouse wrote:
I was fielding 200+ fully painted guardsmen in 7th and they generally did ok. I'm a bit worried that if I do the same thing in 8th people are just going to be more annoyed

Do you... do you have movement trays?

Seems like a simple solution would be to not allow Conscripts to take orders...they are, after all, conscripts and poorly trained.

The problem with blobs of troops is that they're immune to morale tests with some very simple additions and mechanics.

The balancing factor in 8th edition against gigantic blobs of troops should be morale, but it simply doesn't apply when it should. If you light up the conscripts and kill 10 of them, they shouldn't be able to shoot someone in the head and call it all good. They should take the battleshock test the same way everyone else does.

The old balancing factor was templates, and AP that could slay them easily on most weapons. Both of these have been nerfed into oblivion.

broxus wrote:
I could care less about the IG.

So you DO care about Imperial guard? I think you meant to say "I couldn't care less"

I keep hearing about these big conscript blobs as being the future, however, they die quick.

 Hollow wrote:

broxus wrote:
I could care less about the IG.

So you DO care about Imperial guard? I think you meant to say "I couldn't care less"

I keep hearing about these big conscript blobs as being the future, however, they die quick.

Shed some light, how are you killing them?

By reminding the person planning to build them how long they'll take to paint?

As amusing as it is to math out, I think the all-Conscript army is likely to remain pure mathhammer unless some very determined, very patient player brings them to a tournament. You'll pretty much never see them in normal play, it's just too many models for a typical player to manage. Not to mention how expensive it would be to buy all those models (re-cast/china-cast aside), since they use the same models as infantry squads.

As long as they don't reach a certain critical mass they're fine, and I don't think most people will have enough models to get them to critical mass.

I don't have access to the new army books atm being in China and won't be back to the UK until July so can somebody tell me about how HWT squads play now? They were damn awful before, and I know ID is gone but there are a multitude of multiple damage weapons so don't know if that offsets it. Are they playable now? What differences do they have in 8th that will help them?

Wow man... who, 6 months ago, could expect that the most OP armies in 8th could be Orks, Tyranids and Imperial Guard?

Talk about shaking the meta!

You'll see me with a 50-man blob on Conscripts.

I already have one. One. I don't plan to make another. It's $100 per block of conscripts if you use the cheap snap-fit models, $150 if you use regular guardsmen boxes.

Conscripts have terrible dollars-to-points efficiency and are tedium to paint and build.



As for killing them, field big blobs of infantry of your own. Or, anything with a Vulcan Mega-Bolter or Punisher Cannon.

 Purifier wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I was fielding 200+ fully painted guardsmen in 7th and they generally did ok. I'm a bit worried that if I do the same thing in 8th people are just going to be more annoyed

Do you... do you have movement trays?

No, I've not needed them yet... The models are all varnished and built to be as hard-wearing as possible so I can just tip them onto the battlefield to speed up deployment. I am thinking about making some movement trays for 8th though, as there's no longer any downside to having solid ranks of infantry! I rarely don't finish games in tournament time limits. Efficient play and the GW assault dice app make life easier. Plus I kept a reference sheet of everything I'd need to look up on hand.

I genuinely think that conscripts were almost as powerful in 7th as they are in 8th, but people didn't mind it as much as you had to bolt on a couple of reasonably-costed tax units. I think GW made a mistake in making them a standard troops option without limits tbh. I wouldn't be unhappy if they were increased to 4pts and guardsmen to 5pts. I could still take 200 conscripts plus support characters for <1000pts!

 ross-128 wrote:
By reminding the person planning to build them how long they'll take to paint?

As amusing as it is to math out, I think the all-Conscript army is likely to remain pure mathhammer unless some very determined, very patient player brings them to a tournament. You'll pretty much never see them in normal play, it's just too many models for a typical player to manage. Not to mention how expensive it would be to buy all those models (re-cast/china-cast aside), since they use the same models as infantry squads.

As long as they don't reach a certain critical mass they're fine, and I don't think most people will have enough models to get them to critical mass.

to be fair I don't know a single guard person who doesn't have almost 100 infantry models. I play DKOK guard and orks and I have about 150 of each infantry. They are cheap as chips. Ffs guard models are easily available in the secondary market or 3rd party manufacturers and one of the easiest model to collect. They style of guard models haven't changed since 2nd edition. My second edition orks are tiny compared to current ork models and my steel legion models make a perfect conscript squad for my DKOK. Unfortunately I only have 68 steellegion infantry models and 60 DKOK infantry models. 10 plasmagunners, 8 meltagunners, 7 flamers, like 4 of each heavy weapon team. (And various other units like a dozen sergeants, commanders, medics, vox casters, so anyone who has played guard or orks have a crap ton of infantry this isn't theory hammer. It's not terribly hard for me to paint another 30 infantry to spam another squad of conscripts in a month.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You'll see me with a 50-man blob on Conscripts.

I already have one. One. I don't plan to make another. It's $100 per block of conscripts if you use the cheap snap-fit models, $150 if you use regular guardsmen boxes.

Conscripts have terrible dollars-to-points efficiency and are tedium to paint and build.



As for killing them, field big blobs of infantry of your own. Or, anything with a Vulcan Mega-Bolter or Punisher Cannon.

If you get creative (and a little heretical) you can get a mass of mutants to use as conscripts if you use the old Eye of Terror mix and matching. I remember one example used a spare pair of legs, an Ork head, some zombie armies and a marauder head to make one.

Yeah. I have 200 guard models (official gw guard models) plus about 100 cultist models that can be repurposed quickly. Buying another 200 guard models wouldn't bother me. I can paint 100 in a weekend. Spray grey. Black boots and rifles. Flesh faces. Three color standard.

Alternatively, commission a Skaven player to do it for you. Remember those days? :3

gungo wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
By reminding the person planning to build them how long they'll take to paint?

As amusing as it is to math out, I think the all-Conscript army is likely to remain pure mathhammer unless some very determined, very patient player brings them to a tournament. You'll pretty much never see them in normal play, it's just too many models for a typical player to manage. Not to mention how expensive it would be to buy all those models (re-cast/china-cast aside), since they use the same models as infantry squads.

As long as they don't reach a certain critical mass they're fine, and I don't think most people will have enough models to get them to critical mass.

to be fair I don't know a single guard person who doesn't have almost 100 infantry models. I play DKOK guard and orks and I have about 150 of each infantry. They are cheap as chips. Ffs guard models are easily available in the secondary market or 3rd party manufacturers and one of the easiest model to collect. They style of guard models haven't changed since 2nd edition. My second edition orks are tiny compared to current ork models and my steel legion models make a perfect conscript squad for my DKOK. Unfortunately I only have 68 steellegion infantry models and 60 DKOK infantry models. 10 plasmagunners, 8 meltagunners, 7 flamers, like 4 of each heavy weapon team. (And various other units like a dozen sergeants, commanders, medics, vox casters, so anyone who has played guard or orks have a crap ton of infantry this isn't theory hammer. It's not terribly hard for me to paint another 30 infantry to spam another squad of conscripts in a month.

One or two Conscript blobs is reasonable to achieve for sure, and probably a nice wound buffer to round out any IG list. They're also not likely to be too much of a pain to deal with. A significant speed-bump and hardy objective holder, but they're not going to break the game or anything.

The all-conscript army is roughly 550 Conscripts plus the supporting characters to give them orders and commissars. That is the list that is likely to remain pure mathhammer, as I'm sure very few people have 500+ models.

No one will do a straight up 550 conscripts when they can spam hvy weapons or scions or command squads as well. But it's seriously not unreasonable to immediately see 200-300 conscripts by the BAO which is the first major tournament. As stated above I can easily paint a handful more squads and have 200+ conscripts in a month and the other guy above me has 300 + conscripts. This isn't theory hammer. Unless there is a day 1 FAQ you WILL see 250-300 fully painted conscripts lists in less then a month. And I've seen many more pictures of well painted guard armies online with 300+ infantry. It's actually fairly common and looks extremely cool. I think you seriously underestimate guard players it's such a well established army. Heck many of the guard players who have 300+ infantry also have a dozen or more tanks and several baneblades or a baneblade and several FW superheavies. I have 6 leman russes (magnetized), 1 baneblade magnetized, 3 valkyires/vendetta and 1 FW vulture and 6 chimeras (only 2 tauroxs magnetised) and I don't think I have an abnormal guard army. Again not really a theory hammer.

Yeah I literally played the same guard army ive played since 5th in 8th and damn are those conscripts good. Ive always run 40-50 infantry and a 40-50man conscript blob with priest support and yarrick and the powr those conscripts can put out with an officer is amazing. The main problem is that because blast and template weapons have become pretty poor against hordes there isnt much of a counter to it save sniping the characters and trying morale damage but thats actually quite tricky it seems. Maybe its just us adjusting to accepting the fact that taking a number of sniper units isnt just a points sink.anymore like it was in 7th

 Latro_ wrote:
charge into them with rhinos/other high t vehicle? they'll have to fall back, yes they can use an order to now shoot but it uses up that order and defo stops them doing 4x shots.

I lvoe that conscripts ar enow being treated as a unit you should tarpit, rather than as a tarpit unit. Something has gone horrifically wrong.

 Purifier wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

broxus wrote:
I could care less about the IG.

So you DO care about Imperial guard? I think you meant to say "I couldn't care less"

I keep hearing about these big conscript blobs as being the future, however, they die quick.

Shed some light, how are you killing them?

Sure,

Flamethrowers, assault cannons, hurricane bolters, bolters, snipers, and assault squads.

Just snagged 200 more guardsmen fully painted on the cheap. I can now drop 450 guardsmen down with full commissar compliment to negate battleshock and some room for other things.

#gittinGud2017

 Galas wrote:
Wow man... who, 6 months ago, could expect that the most OP armies in 8th could be Orks, Tyranids and Imperial Guard?

Talk about shaking the meta!

The next question is of course who thinks those will still be considered OP six months from now?

broxus wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

broxus wrote:
I could care less about the IG.

So you DO care about Imperial guard? I think you meant to say "I couldn't care less"

I keep hearing about these big conscript blobs as being the future, however, they die quick.

Shed some light, how are you killing them?

Sure,

Flamethrowers, assault cannons, hurricane bolters, bolters, snipers, and assault squads.

So what I seem to be hearing across threads is "if you use many times their worth in points to take them down, they die easy." That doesn't really seem like amazing tips.

 Blacksteel wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Wow man... who, 6 months ago, could expect that the most OP armies in 8th could be Orks, Tyranids and Imperial Guard?

Talk about shaking the meta!

The next question is of course who thinks those will still be considered OP six months from now?

Orks won't. People claiming orks are OP now are basically just lumping them in with the other "horde" armies. The difference being, 3 points for a conscript and 4 for a guardsman is a good deal. 6 points for an ork boy is not even close to the same value. You also really need transports on top of that, if you want them to do damage. Or you can look at gretchin, which are the same price as a conscript while being weaker in virtually every way.

 Purifier wrote:

broxus wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

broxus wrote:
I could care less about the IG.

So you DO care about Imperial guard? I think you meant to say "I couldn't care less"

I keep hearing about these big conscript blobs as being the future, however, they die quick.

Shed some light, how are you killing them?

Sure,

Flamethrowers, assault cannons, hurricane bolters, bolters, snipers, and assault squads.

So what I seem to be hearing across threads is "if you use many times their worth in points to take them down, they die easy." That doesn't really seem like amazing tips.

Alternately "Easy one-round squad wipes are much harder to come by in 8th than they were in 7th".

(They still exist, but they're not the norm anymore. You have to devote actual effort to killing things.)

(Or point Flash Gitz at them. F*** Flash Gitz.)

 Purifier wrote:

broxus wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

broxus wrote:
I could care less about the IG.

So you DO care about Imperial guard? I think you meant to say "I couldn't care less"

I keep hearing about these big conscript blobs as being the future, however, they die quick.

Shed some light, how are you killing them?

Sure,

Flamethrowers, assault cannons, hurricane bolters, bolters, snipers, and assault squads.

So what I seem to be hearing across threads is "if you use many times their worth in points to take them down, they die easy." That doesn't really seem like amazing tips.

Not to mention that Flamers now for the most part only doing D6 hits and not negating armour. Plus if you're in range to flame them, you're in rapid fire range. Also, you've got to get into Flamethrower range.

9 Crisis suits armed with 3 flamers each can on average do 42 wounds to the blob. But those 9 suits cost 621 points.

Really from what I can see the problem with conscripts is scaling - they synergize a bit too well with commissar and company commanders. If the commissar scaled so that the unit would lose a max of the multiple of ten (minimum 1), that would let morale at least whittle away at them. If conscripts, being the chaff, fairly recent recruits, had to actually roll to accept commands - say against their own leadership like in the past, or against a commissar's if one is nearby, suddenly orders are still useful but not automatic on them. I'd honestly rather see fixes like this and then seeing how it works out in the wild before just upping their points.

What are people's thoughts on stormtroopers? They seem fairly balanced to me and finally useable, except for plasma where they just skyrocket past the norm. This seems more a problem with the buffs and cost reductions plasma has received than with the stormies themselves though.

HWS are super fragile, so anything you can get into the backline, or anything with long range/ignores line of sight will be able to remove the pretty easily.

Artillery vehicles are also fairly squishy as far as vehicles go, but more importantly can be tied up in melee, so Kommando squads, warbikers, or stormboyz or anything fast or with deepstrike can get to them and keep them from being effective. Even if they fall back, they can't take orders, so can't shoot.

Taurox Primes with Gatling are probably broken, but remember the are T6, so tankbustas, rokkits, and klaws wound them on 3+, and their short range means they need to get close to you.

Scions, and especially command squads of them, are definitely busted, but their best option is plasma, which is only good if it has good targets. Using small squads in cover to deny deep strike, or units of cheap stuff like grots can keep them out of range of the things they want to shoot: characters, tanks, heavy infantry, and your big guns. Remember, if they don't come in by turn 3 they are dead, so if you can force your opponent to put them down somewhere that isn't that great, you've eliminated a lot of their value.

Leman Russes are expensive with low damage output, but high durability. Tank Commanders and Pask are scarier, but as a rule of thumb for Orks, if it doesn't have a punisher cannon, you can probably afford to focus on killing other things. If it has triple heavy flamers, stay away if you can, as it makes an expensive unit useless. Or hit it with things that don't care about being on fire, like empty trucks, which hilariously can force the tank to fall back and not shoot, or be locked in combat with a durable, but cheap model.

Most of the superheavies are very expensive, even given what you get for them, and are good targets for tankbustas. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT YOU SHOULD NEVER CHARGE A BANEBLADE (or baneblade variant) BECAUSE THEY CAN SHOOT OUT OF COMBAT BUT YOU CAN'T SHOOT IN.

Now for the conscripts. Instead of marching 30 boyz at them, you need to maximize your ability to get close fast. Da Jump is good for one squad, but I would actually suggest trucks. It takes 2-3 full conscript blobs with all members in rapid fire range and getting FRFSRF to kill a truck. If you have your lobbas working over their HWSs they should have a lot less stuff to shoot at them that likes shooting at them, so they are decently survivable. Furthermore, you can charge with the trucks to eat overwatch fire, or just force them to fall back next turn or be tarpitted, while you boyz do other stuff if there are more important targets available. Remember, every time they use the order to shoot after falling back, they are not using FRFSRF, so you are cutting their firepower in half. Also, when you do charge them, see if you can use the 3" + 3" pile in and consolidate to get into combat with other units, as this means they don't get to overwatch you and have to fall back with multiple units.

It may be frustrating to try to stay in combat with conscripts, but being charged by 24 boyz and their trucks will wipe half the squad a turn, so it is still worth trying to get to grips with them.

The other option is to go full Green Tide, with enough support units to maximize your charges. Once you get a couple of units into combat (even if they've each lost 10 guys), they will wipe 50 conscripts a turn. With no chance to fall back and shoot you. Just *poof* gone. This will be trickier to do, since you still need enough stuff to stop HWSs and Taurox Primes from mangling your infantry.

Also note that only woods, craters, and battlescape reduce charge by 2", all other terrain does not, and barricades actually give you an extra 1."

In addition, commentary from those who have been playing suggests that tables need a lot more LOS blocking terrain on them in this addition because of the nerfs to cover saves. This should help keep you from being shot to death on your way up field.

But this is just my 2 cents. I don't play Orks and could be very wrong about some things.

@MaxT: I'm a Ork/Xenos, I don't get snipers.

@Commissar Benny: Just because you don't have the models/patience, doesn't mean other people won't as well - it's a damn effective list, expect to see it at tournaments. Weirdboyz can move one squad per turn (max); and Shootas are unreliably going to hit things (5+ BS). Conscripts cost less, and shoot more, even for the same BS - sure, the Shoota Boyz charge, but then the Conscripts fall back and return fire in their face.

But yes, you need to get EVERYTHING in melee at the same time - hard, even more so with a footslogging list.

@Kaiyanwang: I'm memeing? How so? Bringing up a legitimate unit that concerns me with it's potential, and asking about the best way to deal with it as an Ork is a meme?

@Latro_: Yeah; your best bet is tying them up in melee and requiring them to fall back; it'll negate half the shots (order).

@Elbows: 100% agree - the issue is the scaling on a mob of Conscripts; Guard squads are now balanced around being 10 man strong, and I presume the orders were designed with this number in mind. That said, it's magnified 5 times on a single Conscript squad - I'd say that Conscripts should either require a 1/6 roll for an order to succeed, or that only 1/5 of the unit benefits from any given order. These numbers reflect that a Conscript squad is 5 times as large as a normal guard squad.

@Marmatag: Exactly - having morale not apply to these models is a huge deal. If I lose half my Ork boyz, and don't have another squad nearby, I'll lose the other half (or most of it) as well - for Conscripts, morale literally doesn't matter if a Commissar is nearby; 1d3 dead is not an issue when there's 50 of them.

Morale killing should be an effective method of dealing with them.

@Inquisitor Lord Katherine: Money isn't an issue when it comes to tournament lists - also, I don't have any of those weapons that you mentioned, I'm an Ork. The most amount of shots I can output from one weapon is 3d6 (Deffstorm Mega Blasta on Gorkanaut, 365 points), or 45 shots from one unit, if I get lucky (1/3 chance, 255 points).

@ross-128: Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean it won't happen. People who play Warhammer 40k have deep pockets - and even if they don't, it's not hard to improvise models from other lines, or pick up a ton of models cheap on ebay.

@gungo: 100% agreed; you WILL see these lists in future tournaments. They're too effective not to be run. Plus, Guard armies are notoriously huge in any edition, so people will have a lot of models, or at least, no aversion to getting a large amount.

@Bobug: I support the removal of template weapons - however, there isn't enough firepower in the Index of most armies lists nowadays to bring down 50 models in one go. Which is reasonable, otherwise, why bring hordes? Morale should be the effective counter to a horde, but a commissar makes that point moot. Also; I'm an Ork, I don't have sniper units.

@SilverAlien: Yeah, haha. With templates and morale removed, you can't deal with them effectively - and enough dice will bring anything down; that was the Ork philosophy, I see the guard have accepted it as well (and are doing it better =( ).

@Blacksteel: Orks won't be considered OP in 6 months time; at least not against competent players. They're in a better spot then they were before, but they still have a number of issues; issues that other armies don't have.

@Kurhanik: Agreed - orders are 5x as effective on them, due to squad sizes. That's the real issue - I'd say either they have a 1/6 chance of successfully accepting an order, or only 1/5 of the squad should benefit; it keeps them in line with orders on other guard squads, who are 10 units max.

@Purifier/A Town Called Mallus: Yup - the amount of firepower required to dislodge them is exceedingly high when it comes to points costs. If you hit on 4+, wound on 3+ and they get a 5+ cover save; you need on average 150.15 shots to kill a full squad. Who has that kind of firepower, for those numbers?

@SuspiciousSucculent: Fair enough points: It's hard to maneuvar that much firepower and models into range of their squads, especially after getting shot up by the rest of their forces. Conscripts are cheap as chips; your other forces aren't.

gungo wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
By reminding the person planning to build them how long they'll take to paint?

As amusing as it is to math out, I think the all-Conscript army is likely to remain pure mathhammer unless some very determined, very patient player brings them to a tournament. You'll pretty much never see them in normal play, it's just too many models for a typical player to manage. Not to mention how expensive it would be to buy all those models (re-cast/china-cast aside), since they use the same models as infantry squads.

As long as they don't reach a certain critical mass they're fine, and I don't think most people will have enough models to get them to critical mass.

to be fair I don't know a single guard person who doesn't have almost 100 infantry models. I play DKOK guard and orks and I have about 150 of each infantry. They are cheap as chips. Ffs guard models are easily available in the secondary market or 3rd party manufacturers and one of the easiest model to collect. They style of guard models haven't changed since 2nd edition. My second edition orks are tiny compared to current ork models and my steel legion models make a perfect conscript squad for my DKOK. Unfortunately I only have 68 steellegion infantry models and 60 DKOK infantry models. 10 plasmagunners, 8 meltagunners, 7 flamers, like 4 of each heavy weapon team. (And various other units like a dozen sergeants, commanders, medics, vox casters, so anyone who has played guard or orks have a crap ton of infantry this isn't theory hammer. It's not terribly hard for me to paint another 30 infantry to spam another squad of conscripts in a month.

So you play Death Korps using the AM rules? The DKoK list doesn't have conscripts.

fe40k wrote:
@SuspiciousSucculent: Fair enough points: It's hard to maneuvar that much firepower and models into range of their squads, especially after getting shot up by the rest of their forces. Conscripts are cheap as chips; your other forces aren't.

Part of why I think Trukk boyz could be helpful is that it is a lot easier to maneuver them to where they need to be. As it stands, especially with people still setting up and using terrain designed for 7th's cover rules, the shooting coming at you will be painful. I think that boards need to be much denser to balance this out, which will be a huge help for Orks. The cover nerfs hit Orks hard. Conscripts are cheap as chips, for sure, but if you can get your stuff where it needs to be while still having about 2/3 of your forces left, you start mulching them VERY quickly. Getting there is going to be tough until people start putting more LOS-blocking stuff on the battlefield, though.

Odd question, but for we whom prefer Veteran armies/something other than the endless tide of bodies, is there a option for something else. And by option, I mean something that is competitive and feasible.

(Also, some of us cannot stand the thought of painting 200+ figures)

 master of ordinance wrote:
Odd question, but for we whom prefer Veteran armies/something other than the endless tide of bodies, is there a option for something else. And by option, I mean something that is competitive and feasible.

(Also, some of us cannot stand the thought of painting 200+ figures)

Tempestus Scions squads with full plasmas seems very powerfull and viable.

They're strong, but they don't have the staying power to carry an army by themselves. I don't think IG can really pull off a straight elite infantry list, mostly because that's the Space Marines' turf. Space Marines just do the whole elite infantry thing better.

However, plasma scions could be good support for a parking lot list. A parking lot list isn't exactly going to be top-tier either, but it could pull off some surprise victories simply by subverting the meta.

See, the meta in 8th is shaping up to be very infantry-heavy. This means most all-comers lists will be skewed away from anti-tank. They'll have some, but they're not likely to be prepared for a full parking lot list because they're not expecting to see one.

So, take a bunch of tanks. Hellhounds, Punisher Russes, and Taurox Primes for anti-infantry. Manticores for anti-tank, maybe Vendettas depending on how their cost works out, since lascannon boating is potentially a good vehicle-borne AT option. Scions fill out your troop slots so you can take high-CP detachments, and bring lots of plasma to shore up your AT ability. You won't need Commissars for this list, so you can take tech-priests instead to make your tanks more annoying to remove. Just make sure to space your stuff carefully to minimize enemy deep-strike opportunities, board control is one area where you'll struggle.

Because the tanks will put plenty of units on the table, your scions can all start in reserve. But if you see an enemy clogging too much board space to make deep strikes happen, you can stuff them in the Taurox Primes instead. Their jobs: plasma enemy AT units to death, assassinate characters, and teleport onto objectives.

It won't be top-tier, if someone list-tailors against you you'll get wrecked. Even an accidental bad match-up (or some unlucky rolls on multi-wound weapons) could ruin your day. But if someone isn't expecting it, they might quickly find that they don't have enough AT to deal with it. And then that AT dies, and you're laughing as your tech-priests repair any chip damage their anti-infantry weapons manage to put on your tanks.

i think the 'fix' to conscripts is pretty straight forward (in a way that reworking the points aren't, because they're too far down
at the shallow end, and changing the value means re-examining the value of guardsmen, cultists, gretchin, orks, neophyte hybrids and etc.

An additional rule offers a better solution.
'Ill-trained, Ill disciplined': a conscript squad cannot benefit from orders or the summary execution rule.

Alternately, change the squad size, and cap the maximum at 20, or even 10 like normal guard. Doesn't make much sense to train them to act like blobs when the (few) survivors will never be organized in that fashion.



@ross-128: the thing with anti-tank weapons is they're also just really good weapons in general, and deal with marines, 2 or 3 wound infantry, bikes, and even characters once you clear away the chaff. You don't really lose out buy bringing them, even against a lot of all foot armies. The AP alone is often worthwhile.

It's interesting to see the turnaround. Footguard in 7th was considered dead and I was a fool for running it (especially 50 odd veterans with all the upgrades (which I did for fluff but people said was stupid and wasteful)) and now it's strong.

Even though my particular vets got fethed over, I'm hoping they get fixed in the FAQ or IG Codex otherwise I don't know what I'm going to do with my army.

With my tyranids, my initial plan is going to be to first use lictors and/or Deathleaper to go after the commissar. If that fails, two brood of termagant supported by a tervigon, which I would take anyway, and venomthropes. Cast horror on conscripts. -2 to hit rolls between that and thrones. Fire preferred-enemy fleshborers until conscripts dead. Rinse&repeat.

Voss wrote:
i think the 'fix' to conscripts is pretty straight forward (in a way that reworking the points aren't, because they're too far down
at the shallow end, and changing the value means re-examining the value of guardsmen, cultists, gretchin, orks, neophyte hybrids and etc.

Except it really doesn't mean that. Go look at the value of the units you mentioned, then look at guard. Hybrids cost more than a guardsman despite being almost identical, gretchin cost as much a conscript but are notably worse, cultists cost more than guardsman but are worse.

Guardsman and conscripts are both a point too cheap compared to basically every other army in the game. You can see this is a running theme, every other army pays roughly the same amount. Sure, cultists are marginally worse the neophyte hybrids for the same point, but guard are cheaper than both for no good reason.

So no, changing the value of IG conscripts and basic guardsmen would just put them in line with every other balanced faction.

SilverAlien wrote:

Voss wrote:
i think the 'fix' to conscripts is pretty straight forward (in a way that reworking the points aren't, because they're too far down
at the shallow end, and changing the value means re-examining the value of guardsmen, cultists, gretchin, orks, neophyte hybrids and etc.

Except it really doesn't mean that. Go look at the value of the units you mentioned, then look at guard. Hybrids cost more than a guardsman despite being almost identical, gretchin cost as much a conscript but are notably worse, cultists cost more than guardsman but are worse.

Guardsman and conscripts are both a point too cheap compared to basically every other army in the game. You can see this is a running theme, every other army pays roughly the same amount. Sure, cultists are marginally worse the neophyte hybrids for the same point, but guard are cheaper than both for no good reason.

So no, changing the value of IG conscripts and basic guardsmen would just put them in line with every other balanced faction.

And all those other factions have powerful units and special abilities to call upon, which in turn make them more powerful than the Guard. Guard do not have special abilities, skills, or powerful units. They have cheap bodies, and that is apparently what we do in this new edition.
So please do not try and take our sole advantage from us.

Uh, guard has orders, which is more than some armies. The only thing ad mech has is canticles, which is roughly equivalent to orders. Not a whole bunch more that you don't have.

 Purifier wrote:
Uh, guard has orders, which is more than some armies. The only thing ad mech has is canticles, which is roughly equivalent to orders. Not a whole bunch more that you don't have.

And you get orders even if you bring a squad of Deathwatch.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Uh, guard has orders, which is more than some armies. The only thing ad mech has is canticles, which is roughly equivalent to orders. Not a whole bunch more that you don't have.

And you get orders even if you bring a squad of Deathwatch.

How do you figure that? I just don't understand what you mean by this.

 Purifier wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Uh, guard has orders, which is more than some armies. The only thing ad mech has is canticles, which is roughly equivalent to orders. Not a whole bunch more that you don't have.

And you get orders even if you bring a squad of Deathwatch.

How do you figure that? I just don't understand what you mean by this.

Canticles only work if your detachment is all Mechanicum.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Uh, guard has orders, which is more than some armies. The only thing ad mech has is canticles, which is roughly equivalent to orders. Not a whole bunch more that you don't have.

And you get orders even if you bring a squad of Deathwatch.

How do you figure that? I just don't understand what you mean by this.

Canticles only work if your detachment is all Mechanicum.

Right, now I get it. I thought you were telling me that I still got my version of orders, but right, you mean he still gets his orders while I lose my Canticles. Which is entirely true.

fe40k wrote:


@Kaiyanwang: I'm memeing? How so? Bringing up a legitimate unit that concerns me with it's potential, and asking about the best way to deal with it as an Ork is a meme?

I cannot take seriously an un-counterable blob. That's about it. Especially seeing its weak spots, and the way unconventional deployment of troops (deep strike, infiltrate) changed in the current edition.

 master of ordinance wrote:
And all those other factions have powerful units and special abilities to call upon, which in turn make them more powerful than the Guard. Guard do not have special abilities, skills, or powerful units. They have cheap bodies, and that is apparently what we do in this new edition.
So please do not try and take our sole advantage from us.

Nope, guard has access to special rules (orders are generally one of the better special rules out there) and has access to a ton of powerful units. Even without templates they have excellent tanks and most of the oddball units got buffed.

The index is in no way weak outside of infantry spam, certainly not to the point they need notable undercosted infantry than are virtually impossible to deal with without overspending.

Also, a Leman Russ Punisher goes through Conscripts like butter, and it comes up to only 211 points at BS3+, which is only 11 points more than the conscripts and their supporting characters.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, a Leman Russ Punisher goes through Conscripts like butter, and it comes up to only 211 points at BS3+, which is only 11 points more than the conscripts and their supporting characters.

Nobody forbids you to put there 2, one that hits with 2+ and one 3+, given that they can wound with 5+ or better a lot more stuff

Maybe it is just me but I think people are really over rating fall back from non-flying units. I may be wrong, but I feel like it is pretty easy to deny with positioning in many cases. Some of that is dependent on the positioning of my opponents models but if they spread out at all, you just surround one model and they are stuck.

Breng77 wrote:
Maybe it is just me but I think people are really over rating fall back from non-flying units.

People are over-rating a lot of stuff after 8th edition came out.

In the guard itself I would be more annoyed for the point cost of weapons for models with a 3+ or better.
Said this, I appreciate immensely that the designer finally understood that a power fist is not the same weapon in the hands of a SM captain or a guard sergeant, so I don't want to complain that much, at the moment.

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem with blobs of troops is that they're immune to morale tests with some very simple additions and mechanics.

The balancing factor in 8th edition against gigantic blobs of troops should be morale, but it simply doesn't apply when it should. If you light up the conscripts and kill 10 of them, they shouldn't be able to shoot someone in the head and call it all good. They should take the battleshock test the same way everyone else does.

The old balancing factor was templates, and AP that could slay them easily on most weapons. Both of these have been nerfed into oblivion.

The balancing factor now is snipers. Seriously, take 2-3 Vindicares. *BLAM* the Commissars and then smash the Conscript units.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, a Leman Russ Punisher goes through Conscripts like butter, and it comes up to only 211 points at BS3+, which is only 11 points more than the conscripts and their supporting characters.

Which will eventually kill the entire unit (but not the LC supporting them) at more points. It also doesn't really "cut through" a unit of 50. It slowly whittles down a unit of 50 if it devotes the entire game to killing just the conscripts. Between the short range, snap fire on the heavy bolters, and the possibility that the conscripts themselves could knock you down to bs 4+. Then we consider that additional blobs of conscripts don't require a separate LC, meaning 3 units of conscripts+LC vs 3 tank commanders is going to be a 133 point difference rather than 11 points.

It is better than most suggestions but no, it still doesn't actually counter the unit.

Audustum wrote:
The balancing factor now is snipers. Seriously, take 2-3 Vindicares. *BLAM* the Commissars and then smash the Conscript units.

A significant portion fo armies lack snipers (orks, chaos and tyranids). But tyranids can just spam cheap infantry as well and orks and chaos being useless garbage is considered balanced by most, so I guess that's fine. The absurdly large toolbox available to the imperium once again means other armies get screwed over.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Maybe it is just me but I think people are really over rating fall back from non-flying units.

People are over-rating a lot of stuff after 8th edition came out.

In the guard itself I would be more annoyed for the point cost of weapons for models with a 3+ or better.
Said this, I appreciate immensely that the designer finally understood that a power fist is not the same weapon in the hands of a SM captain or a guard sergeant, so I don't want to complain that much, at the moment.

Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

Breng77 wrote:
Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

What are you assaulting them with? Because they can probably overwhelm most things in melee with sheer number of attacks, not to mention RF overwatch and the round or two of shooting they got off against anything that didn't deepstrike. Unless you want to tarpit them (which isn't really accomplishing much against the cheap spammable tarpit) most melee units either get gunned down before hand, or don't have enough attacks to actually take down the conscripts.

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

What are you assaulting them with? Because they can probably overwhelm most things in melee with sheer number of attacks, not to mention RF overwatch and the round or two of shooting they got off against anything that didn't deepstrike. Unless you want to tarpit them (which isn't really accomplishing much against the cheap spammable tarpit) most melee units either get gunned down before hand, or don't have enough attacks to actually take down the conscripts.

Ork Boyz, if you jump them in can get a charge (albeit a long one) prior to taking damage. Their overwatch (from a 50 man squad) likely does 2 wounds. The Orks can reliably kill 20 + Conscripts. Their attacks back really are not that scary, if the remaining 30 get in to attack they kill 3 orks. So with overwatch they would be lucky to kill say 8 orks. The only way they are getting that many attacks back is essentially by letting me stay in combat through their turn because I will lock them up with positioning. Otherwise they remove the 20 models closest to my squad, and likely get almost no return attacks.

Breng77 wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

What are you assaulting them with? Because they can probably overwhelm most things in melee with sheer number of attacks, not to mention RF overwatch and the round or two of shooting they got off against anything that didn't deepstrike. Unless you want to tarpit them (which isn't really accomplishing much against the cheap spammable tarpit) most melee units either get gunned down before hand, or don't have enough attacks to actually take down the conscripts.

Ork Boyz, if you jump them in can get a charge (albeit a long one) prior to taking damage. Their overwatch (from a 50 man squad) likely does 2 wounds. The Orks can reliably kill 20 + Conscripts. Their attacks back really are not that scary, if the remaining 30 get in to attack they kill 3 orks. So with overwatch they would be lucky to kill say 8 orks. The only way they are getting that many attacks back is essentially by letting me stay in combat through their turn because I will lock them up with positioning. Otherwise they remove the 20 models closest to my squad, and likely get almost no return attacks.

If you are using da jump we are talking about a weirdboy, which has a cost of it's own and isn't that reliable. Then you have to get the charge. This is also a tactic you can manage once a turn tops.

You also messed up some math. You get 5 wounds on overwatch, not 2 (though the 8 total is correct). Which means you drop below the threshold for extra attacks after your first turn, and overwatch itself only has to be slightly more effective than normal to cut your charge down to 3/4ths its effectiveness.

So again not a counter. You are spending marginally more (25 boyz + weirdboy is 12 more points than LC and 50 conscripts), for a tactic that is risky (miss the charge, overwatch is better than average, potential perils), and doesn't scale (think of how badly this goes for the orks if three units of conscripts are near each other. Can't use da jump more than once a turn afterall).

That right there is pretty much why Boyz are 6 points. They may not win a shootout with equal points' worth of guardsmen/conscripts (mostly due to FRFSRF, and in the guardsmen's case better BS), but shooting isn't what the Orks want to do anyway. They're S4, T4, WS3+, and get 2 attacks base (3 with a choppa, their default melee option) to the guardsman's 1. And now they go first on the charge. This means not only do they get 2-3x as many attacks in melee, but those attacks hit more, wound more, and receive fewer wounds in return.

Boyz are good. They're just not good at shooting, because they're not a shooty army. They're an assault army that happens to have guns. Get them in melee and krump some heads, they'll earn their points back easily.

Even if the unit you charge does fall back and shoot you, just charge again. Yes, you're trading wounds doing that. But would you rather stand back and trade BS5+ S4 A2 for those wounds, or shoot your guns anyway because it doesn't stop you from charging, then charge for an additional WS3+ S4 A3? You're looking at the difference between rolling two dice and five, with three of those on a significantly better to-hit value. Plus, if they're using an order to fall back and shoot, they're not using an order to FRFSRF, so you've still cut that unit's damage output in half.

The only excuse Boyz would ever have for not charging is if the target has enough flamethrowers to actually make them worry about surviving overwatch.

"Hmm, I've got all these models who are WS3+ and BS5+, and whose melee has a better rate of fire than their guns. I think I'll sit back and shoot. Man, I wonder why my Orks suck so much?"

 ross-128 wrote:
That right there is pretty much why Boyz are 6 points. They may not win a shootout with equal points' worth of guardsmen/conscripts (mostly due to FRFSRF, and in the guardsmen's case better BS), but shooting isn't what the Orks want to do anyway. They're S4, T4, WS3+, and get 2 attacks base (3 with a choppa, their default melee option) to the guardsman's 1. And now they go first on the charge. This means not only do they get 2-3x as many attacks in melee, but those attacks hit more, wound more, and receive fewer wounds in return.

Boyz are good. They're just not good at shooting, because they're not a shooty army. They're an assault army that happens to have guns. Get them in melee and krump some heads, they'll earn their points back easily.

Even if the unit you charge does fall back and shoot you, just charge again. Yes, you're trading wounds doing that. But would you rather stand back and trade BS5+ S4 A2 for those wounds, or shoot your guns anyway because it doesn't stop you from charging, then charge for an additional WS3+ S4 A3? You're looking at the difference between rolling two dice and five, with three of those on a significantly better to-hit value. Plus, if they're using an order to fall back and shoot, they're not using an order to FRFSRF, so you've still cut that unit's damage output in half.

The only excuse Boyz would ever have for not charging is if the target has enough flamethrowers to actually make them worry about surviving overwatch.

"Hmm, I've got all these models who are WS3+ and BS5+, and whose melee has a better rate of fire than their guns. I think I'll sit back and shoot. Man, I wonder why my Orks suck so much?"

Except they are hideously slow, not very tough for their points, and have bad transports (either no where near enough capacity or hideously expensive and still lacking in capacity). He's literally discussing the single situation boyz aren't bad: a unit of 25 or more with da jump psychic power. That's the only situation you aren't getting butchered. Because boyz work in units of more than 20 that can easily get into close combat without taking a ton of fire, and there is a single way for orks to do that.... unreliably... once a turn.

Damage potential means nothing if you can't utilize it. That's why boyz are still fairly garbage.

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Very true. It just seems like every conscript thread I see goes "even if you assault they just fall back and shoot you." That may happen but it isn't automatic.

What are you assaulting them with? Because they can probably overwhelm most things in melee with sheer number of attacks, not to mention RF overwatch and the round or two of shooting they got off against anything that didn't deepstrike. Unless you want to tarpit them (which isn't really accomplishing much against the cheap spammable tarpit) most melee units either get gunned down before hand, or don't have enough attacks to actually take down the conscripts.

Ork Boyz, if you jump them in can get a charge (albeit a long one) prior to taking damage. Their overwatch (from a 50 man squad) likely does 2 wounds. The Orks can reliably kill 20 + Conscripts. Their attacks back really are not that scary, if the remaining 30 get in to attack they kill 3 orks. So with overwatch they would be lucky to kill say 8 orks. The only way they are getting that many attacks back is essentially by letting me stay in combat through their turn because I will lock them up with positioning. Otherwise they remove the 20 models closest to my squad, and likely get almost no return attacks.

If you are using da jump we are talking about a weirdboy, which has a cost of it's own and isn't that reliable. Then you have to get the charge. This is also a tactic you can manage once a turn tops.

You also messed up some math. You get 5 wounds on overwatch, not 2 (though the 8 total is correct). Which means you drop below the threshold for extra attacks after your first turn, and overwatch itself only has to be slightly more effective than normal to cut your charge down to 2/3rds its effectiveness.

So again not a counter. You are spending marginally more (25 boyz + weirdboy is 12 more points than LC and 50 conscripts), for a tactic that is risky (miss the charge, overwatch is better than average, potential perils), and doesn't scale (think of how abdly this goes for the orks if three units of conscripts are near each other. Can't use da jump more than once a turn afterall).

Weirdboy is pretty reliable given that he will be at minimum +3 to cast for this power, which means needing to roll a 4+ on 2D6. Which is essentially the same as rolling a 2+ on 1D6, and you have command points to re-roll a dice. This power will basically always go off. The charge is less dependable. As for overwatch yes I forgot to double their shots. It comes out to 4.6. TO cut down my charge to 2/3rds its effectiveness you really need a huge overwatch killing 10 models. That is double the odds. I actually think it works better for orks if their are more units as If I can pile into additional units more win for me. Kommandos can also join in the assault if more squads exist, potentially eating the overwatch for the large boyz squad. But as you are continually convinced nothing orks do will work I don't know what to say. All counters don't need to be cheaper in points. The weirdboy doesn't need to be included because the armies are the same points, so unless I am trading units (and even then) it doesn't matter what each unit costs. In the end all I really need to do is tie up the conscripts allowing the rest of my units to advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
That right there is pretty much why Boyz are 6 points. They may not win a shootout with equal points' worth of guardsmen/conscripts (mostly due to FRFSRF, and in the guardsmen's case better BS), but shooting isn't what the Orks want to do anyway. They're S4, T4, WS3+, and get 2 attacks base (3 with a choppa, their default melee option) to the guardsman's 1. And now they go first on the charge. This means not only do they get 2-3x as many attacks in melee, but those attacks hit more, wound more, and receive fewer wounds in return.

Boyz are good. They're just not good at shooting, because they're not a shooty army. They're an assault army that happens to have guns. Get them in melee and krump some heads, they'll earn their points back easily.

Even if the unit you charge does fall back and shoot you, just charge again. Yes, you're trading wounds doing that. But would you rather stand back and trade BS5+ S4 A2 for those wounds, or shoot your guns anyway because it doesn't stop you from charging, then charge for an additional WS3+ S4 A3? You're looking at the difference between rolling two dice and five, with three of those on a significantly better to-hit value. Plus, if they're using an order to fall back and shoot, they're not using an order to FRFSRF, so you've still cut that unit's damage output in half.

The only excuse Boyz would ever have for not charging is if the target has enough flamethrowers to actually make them worry about surviving overwatch.

"Hmm, I've got all these models who are WS3+ and BS5+, and whose melee has a better rate of fire than their guns. I think I'll sit back and shoot. Man, I wonder why my Orks suck so much?"

Except they are hideously slow, not very tough for their points, and have bad transports (either no where near enough capacity or hideously expensive and still lacking in capacity). He's literally discussing the single situation boyz aren't bad: a unit of 25 or more with da jump psychic power. That's the only situation you aren't getting butchered. Because boyz work in units of more than 20 that can easily get into close combat without taking a ton of fire, and there is a single way for orks to do that.... unreliably... once a turn.

Damage potential means nothing if you can't utilize it. That's why boyz are still fairly garbage.

Boyz are cheap, you only need to throw distractions at your opponent to force them to ignore your other threats that then hit home.

Is really people calling Boyz bad? Who plays with a single unit of 30 boyz? Go big or go home. Bring 90 boyz to the table supported by 1500 points of other Ork units and see how they look much more terrifyng.

Really people, calling Ork Boyz garbage. A S4/T4 model with 3 (2+choppa)attacks base, WS3+ and, ok a 6+ save and 5" movement. All of that for 6 points... that gain +1 attack if they are 20 or more.
What do you wan't people? Really. Explain me. What do you want for 6 points a piece?

Conscripts are undercosted, ok. But the low end is so full of units that you really don't have margin. Boyz for 4 or 5 points are absurdly OP. 6 is perfect for them.

Breng77 wrote:
Weirdboy is pretty reliable given that he will be at minimum +3 to cast for this power, which means needing to roll a 4+ on 2D6. Which is essentially the same as rolling a 2+ on 1D6, and you have command points to re-roll a dice. This power will basically always go off. The charge is less dependable. As for overwatch yes I forgot to double their shots. It comes out to 4.6. TO cut down my charge to 2/3rds its effectiveness you really need a huge overwatch killing 10 models. That is double the odds. I actually think it works better for orks if their are more units as If I can pile into additional units more win for me. Kommandos can also join in the assault if more squads exist, potentially eating the overwatch for the large boyz squad. But as you are continually convinced nothing orks do will work I don't know what to say. All counters don't need to be cheaper in points. The weirdboy doesn't need to be included because the armies are the same points, so unless I am trading units (and even then) it doesn't matter what each unit costs. In the end all I really need to do is tie up the conscripts allowing the rest of my units to advance.

The weirdboy also perils if the roll goes over 12, so that weirdboy can take a peril before he risks death. Which again, is an issue if you plan to sue it multiple times. Which is why the weirdboyz cost does matter, he can easily end up dead after doing this 2-3 times, and may not contribute much else.

I was assuming 25 boyz, which costs 150 points (same as 50 conscripts). At 30 boyz, we are talking about conscripts+company commander (with LC and weirdboy balancing each other out mostly). Which means either the conscripts get a second fight phase if they can't withdraw, or they can retreat, fire and then overwatch again.

If you pile into more units, you die. A unit of 50 conscripts kills 4-5 orcs, and you are stuck dividing your attacks. Your boyz might not even survive past the first fight phase if you try to take that many on.

Yes counters should at least be equivalently priced, ideally you want cheaper. But they should be roughly the same.

Also note: orks aren't bad boys are bad. Orks have good options (kommandos for example). Boys are just lack luster because they still lack an effective delivery system, outside a single psychic power usable once per turn with a psyker who will end generally end up dead in a few turns.

And no, 6 points isn't that cheap. That's actually right on the line between mind range infantry and horde infantry which makes sense given they also straddle that line in power. It does mean you can't afford to let them be just a distraction (that's what gretchin are for)..

 Galas wrote:
Is really people calling Boyz bad? Who plays with a single unit of 30 boyz? Go big or go home. Bring 90 boyz to the table supported by 1500 points of other Ork units and see how they look much more terrifyng.

Really people, calling Ork Boyz garbage. A S4/T4 model with 3 (2+choppa)attacks base, WS3+ and, ok a 6+ save and 5" movement. All of that for 6 points... that gain +1 attack if they are 20 or more.
What do you wan't people? Really. Explain me. What do you want for 6 points a piece?

Conscripts are undercosted, ok. But the low end is so full of units that you really don't have margin. Boyz for 4 or 5 points are absurdly OP. 6 is perfect for them.

Not over costed, it really is the fact they lack any good way to get close. No transports can hold a unit of 30 and restricted to one use of da jump per turn. Combine that with the fact they are fairly fragile (toughness 4 and 6+ armor is rarely an improvement on 5+ armor, particular given what will likely shoot at the boys) and it's easy to rip them up before they get close. The fact even a small unit can do good damage helps, but they still struggle greatly and aren't what you want to focus on in an ork army, better to focus on commandos, bikes, etc.

The thing about boyz is... if your enemy is shooting them and not your more elite units, you win. If your enemy don't shoot them and they reach meele at full strenght, you win.

 Galas wrote:
The thing about boyz is... if your enemy is shooting them and not your more elite units, you win. If your enemy don't shoot them and they reach meele at full strenght, you win.

No, generally boys aren't that tough. Most 4-5 point infantry are as tough while being cheaper (with conscripts being even more absurd at 3). They aren't good at being cheap chaff, if you want them to actually be wroth what you spent, you need them to do damage, because that damage potential is a large part of their price tag.

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Weirdboy is pretty reliable given that he will be at minimum +3 to cast for this power, which means needing to roll a 4+ on 2D6. Which is essentially the same as rolling a 2+ on 1D6, and you have command points to re-roll a dice. This power will basically always go off. The charge is less dependable. As for overwatch yes I forgot to double their shots. It comes out to 4.6. TO cut down my charge to 2/3rds its effectiveness you really need a huge overwatch killing 10 models. That is double the odds. I actually think it works better for orks if their are more units as If I can pile into additional units more win for me. Kommandos can also join in the assault if more squads exist, potentially eating the overwatch for the large boyz squad. But as you are continually convinced nothing orks do will work I don't know what to say. All counters don't need to be cheaper in points. The weirdboy doesn't need to be included because the armies are the same points, so unless I am trading units (and even then) it doesn't matter what each unit costs. In the end all I really need to do is tie up the conscripts allowing the rest of my units to advance.

The weirdboy also perils if the roll goes over 12, so that weirdboy can take a peril before he risks death. Which again, is an issue if you plan to sue it multiple times. Which is why the weirdboyz cost does matter, he can easily end up dead after doing this 2-3 times, and may not contribute much else.

I was assuming 25 boyz, which costs 150 points (same as 50 conscripts). At 30 boyz, we are talking about conscripts+company commander (with LC and weirdboy balancing each other out mostly). Which means either the conscripts get a second fight phase if they can't withdraw, or they can retreat, fire and then overwatch again.

If you pile into more units, you die. A unit of 50 conscripts kills 4-5 orcs, and you are stuck dividing your attacks. Your boyz might not even survive past the first fight phase if you try to take that many on.

Yes counters should at least be equivalently priced, ideally you want cheaper. But they should be roughly the same.

Also note: orks aren't bad boys are bad. Orks have good options (kommandos for example). Boys are just lack luster because they still lack an effective delivery system, outside a single psychic power usable once per turn with a psyker who will end generally end up dead in a few turns.

And no, 6 points isn't that cheap. That's actually right on the line between mind range infantry and horde infantry which makes sense given they also straddle that line in power. It does mean you can't afford to let them be just a distraction (that's what gretchin are for)..

 Galas wrote:
Is really people calling Boyz bad? Who plays with a single unit of 30 boyz? Go big or go home. Bring 90 boyz to the table supported by 1500 points of other Ork units and see how they look much more terrifyng.

Really people, calling Ork Boyz garbage. A S4/T4 model with 3 (2+choppa)attacks base, WS3+ and, ok a 6+ save and 5" movement. All of that for 6 points... that gain +1 attack if they are 20 or more.
What do you wan't people? Really. Explain me. What do you want for 6 points a piece?

Conscripts are undercosted, ok. But the low end is so full of units that you really don't have margin. Boyz for 4 or 5 points are absurdly OP. 6 is perfect for them.

Not over costed, it really is the fact they lack any good way to get close. No transports can hold a unit of 30 and restricted to one use of da jump per turn. Combine that with the fact they are fairly fragile (toughness 4 and 6+ armor is rarely an improvement on 5+ armor, particular given what will likely shoot at the boys) and it's easy to rip them up before they get close. The fact even a small unit can do good damage helps, but they still struggle greatly and aren't what you want to focus on in an ork army, better to focus on commandos, bikes, etc.

SO if the weirdboy does it twice, he is straight up the best transport in the game for his points. He can deepstrike 30 models, remind me what does a drop pod cost?

2nd, why are we assuming that All the conscripts get to swing, it is highly likely they will be a bit spread out and I can hit them so that they won't max out their attacks. Same with the pile in if I clip the end of a squad and it contributes 3 or 4 guys to the assault, and then gets locked in I win. My math for the orks was for 15 of them and the Nob getting to swing. Which would do ~25 wounds. If I included the 24 that survive the overwatch 38 conscripts die. The way I look at it is neither of us will swing with everyone, I'll swing with more. Then they either choose to fight back and stay in combat, or lose the close models and basically get no retaliation. Same thing with units like commandos, you clip your opponent so they cannot swing at full effectiveness. Point of fact, there is basically no way all 50 conscripts get to fight in the combat, or all 30 remaining, it is too hard to get that many in range unless they are essentially sitting in a giant square, not screening for their army.

You continually try to make the sides even, they may not be. me having more boyz does not mean my opponent auto has a company commader buffing his unit. He might have an extra tank somewhere not helping his conscripts.

SilverAlien wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
That right there is pretty much why Boyz are 6 points. They may not win a shootout with equal points' worth of guardsmen/conscripts (mostly due to FRFSRF, and in the guardsmen's case better BS), but shooting isn't what the Orks want to do anyway. They're S4, T4, WS3+, and get 2 attacks base (3 with a choppa, their default melee option) to the guardsman's 1. And now they go first on the charge. This means not only do they get 2-3x as many attacks in melee, but those attacks hit more, wound more, and receive fewer wounds in return.

Boyz are good. They're just not good at shooting, because they're not a shooty army. They're an assault army that happens to have guns. Get them in melee and krump some heads, they'll earn their points back easily.

Even if the unit you charge does fall back and shoot you, just charge again. Yes, you're trading wounds doing that. But would you rather stand back and trade BS5+ S4 A2 for those wounds, or shoot your guns anyway because it doesn't stop you from charging, then charge for an additional WS3+ S4 A3? You're looking at the difference between rolling two dice and five, with three of those on a significantly better to-hit value. Plus, if they're using an order to fall back and shoot, they're not using an order to FRFSRF, so you've still cut that unit's damage output in half.

The only excuse Boyz would ever have for not charging is if the target has enough flamethrowers to actually make them worry about surviving overwatch.

"Hmm, I've got all these models who are WS3+ and BS5+, and whose melee has a better rate of fire than their guns. I think I'll sit back and shoot. Man, I wonder why my Orks suck so much?"

Except they are hideously slow, not very tough for their points, and have bad transports (either no where near enough capacity or hideously expensive and still lacking in capacity). He's literally discussing the single situation boyz aren't bad: a unit of 25 or more with da jump psychic power. That's the only situation you aren't getting butchered. Because boyz work in units of more than 20 that can easily get into close combat without taking a ton of fire, and there is a single way for orks to do that.... unreliably... once a turn.

Damage potential means nothing if you can't utilize it. That's why boyz are still fairly garbage.

Pretty simple solution seems to be having a mix of fast units and footsloggers. Any of the 14" move vehicles will work, stormboyz would work too since they can move 12", advance, and still charge. Kommandos can also count as "fast units" if they deep strike. A 9" charge is pretty easy for Orks, 9 points a model is not a bad deal when it buys the rest of your army the one turn they need to dictate the terms of the fight.

Let's say you have a Darn of War deployment with 24" separation. The fast units charge first-turn, suppressing enemy fire for that turn and doing some damage. They don't need to survive the enemy's turn, just deny or suppress their first turn of shooting. Big footslogger mob moves 5" up, runs d6". If they have any targets that aren't in melee with the vehicles, might as well shoot because hitting on 6 is better than nothing. Second turn move 5" up again, now unless you rolled a 1 the previous turn you're in charge range (you're looking at 11-8" of charge).

If you brought a Warboss (and you probably do have a Warboss, with your mandatory HQ slots) you can even advance again, because he lets your guys charge after advancing. Easy turn 2 charge, especially with Ere We Go giving you re-rolls on it.

That's probably going to be a big thing with how to do well with Orks: hit in two waves. First wave is fast distraction units, who provide suppression so the big block of slow, killy units can hit the next turn. It's kind of the reverse of what Tyranids do, with their speedy gaunts and slow MCs (or speedy MCs followed by slow MCs in the case of Nidzilla).

For any deployment with less than 24" of separation, Trukks can do it. And Trukks are probably going to be surprisingly durable distractions, considering they have 10 wounds and the Ramshackle rule can let them just nope away multi-wound hits. Otherwise, Trukks allow you to spend your first turn shooting at 5+ instead of 6+ (open-topped) and then guarantee you a trivially easy second-turn charge (12" embarked, 3" disembark, 5" move, charge).

SilverAlien wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The thing about boyz is... if your enemy is shooting them and not your more elite units, you win. If your enemy don't shoot them and they reach meele at full strenght, you win.

No, generally boys aren't that tough. Most 4-5 point infantry are as tough while being cheaper (with conscripts being even more absurd at 3). They aren't good at being cheap chaff, if you want them to actually be wroth what you spent, you need them to do damage, because that damage potential is a large part of their price tag.

I'm sorry but to me the problem is with how cheap Conscripts and Guardsmen are, not with Orks. And I don't agree with this (need to be ultra tought and ultra offensive by the minimun point cost). After years and years of playing Fantasy with Greenskins, one learn to accept the great loses of your hordes and to support them with your more elite units. Obviously they aren't good alone as being cheap chaff. Because they aren't cheap chaff. They are ofensive cheap chaff, and they give your opponent the dilema of focusing them or suffering theyr offensive power.

But I'll repeat. Boyz are perfect. The problem is with Conscripts and Guardsmen. Again'st Hormagaunts/Termagaunts or Chaos Cultists, Orks Boyz are balanced.

Breng77 wrote:
SO if the weirdboy does it twice, he is straight up the best transport in the game for his points. He can deepstrike 30 models, remind me what does a drop pod cost?

2nd, why are we assuming that All the conscripts get to swing, it is highly likely they will be a bit spread out and I can hit them so that they won't max out their attacks. Same with the pile in if I clip the end of a squad and it contributes 3 or 4 guys to the assault, and then gets locked in I win. My math for the orks was for 15 of them and the Nob getting to swing. Which would do ~25 wounds. If I included the 24 that survive the overwatch 38 conscripts die. The way I look at it is neither of us will swing with everyone, I'll swing with more. Then they either choose to fight back and stay in combat, or lose the close models and basically get no retaliation. Same thing with units like commandos, you clip your opponent so they cannot swing at full effectiveness. Point of fact, there is basically no way all 50 conscripts get to fight in the combat, or all 30 remaining, it is too hard to get that many in range unless they are essentially sitting in a giant square, not screening for their army.

You continually try to make the sides even, they may not be. me having more boyz does not mean my opponent auto has a company commader buffing his unit. He might have an extra tank somewhere not helping his conscripts.

If he does it once he is arguably better than most, as transport capacity is less than 30 units for the majority. Though most are considered a bit expensive anyways.

Depends on how spread out the conscripts are. I was assuming relatively condensed, because I don't see much reason not to. With a 3" move, you are getting a good portion in the fight. Also note, if you don't consolidate towards them, and you kill all models within 1" of yours... they can just not move at all, and won't be locked into combat.

15 boys and the nob aren't even getting 20 wounds average (30 with all of them), conscripts have a 5+ save remember?

Showing you can beat a unit by using more points is rather pointless. Of course you can. But you don't get more points. If you are overspending here to deal with conscripts, the rest of your army is at a disadvantage and thus struggling.

 Galas wrote:
But I'll repeat. Boyz are perfect. The problem is with Conscripts and Guardsmen. Again'st Hormagaunts/Termagaunts or Chaos Cultists, Orks Boyz are balanced.

Eh, I disagree but I can see where you are coming from. I prioritize price tag/toughness and mobility over the potential damage for melee units and that's generally not been a bad choice in previous editions. Might not be true these days, but I just see warning signs all around them.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, a Leman Russ Punisher goes through Conscripts like butter, and it comes up to only 211 points at BS3+, which is only 11 points more than the conscripts and their supporting characters.

Which will eventually kill the entire unit (but not the LC supporting them) at more points. It also doesn't really "cut through" a unit of 50. It slowly whittles down a unit of 50 if it devotes the entire game to killing just the conscripts. Between the short range, snap fire on the heavy bolters, and the possibility that the conscripts themselves could knock you down to bs 4+. Then we consider that additional blobs of conscripts don't require a separate LC, meaning 3 units of conscripts+LC vs 3 tank commanders is going to be a 133 point difference rather than 11 points.

It is better than most suggestions but no, it still doesn't actually counter the unit.

Audustum wrote:
The balancing factor now is snipers. Seriously, take 2-3 Vindicares. *BLAM* the Commissars and then smash the Conscript units.

A significant portion fo armies lack snipers (orks, chaos and tyranids). But tyranids can just spam cheap infantry as well and orks and chaos being useless garbage is considered balanced by most, so I guess that's fine. The absurdly large toolbox available to the imperium once again means other armies get screwed over.

I've tested it [outside of vacuum], and the Punisher makes a mess out of conscripts/equivalent. I'm hoping to put it to the test a bit more rigorously, in more battles with more aggressive opposition on saturday.

Lots of whining about a meta that doesnt exist yet. How about we play some games and have a few tournaments before we start talking about how powerful and weak armies are in 8th ed. It is funny every thread seems to be "my army now sucks and every other army is more powerful". Obviously this can't be true so let's wait and see.

SilverAlien wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
SO if the weirdboy does it twice, he is straight up the best transport in the game for his points. He can deepstrike 30 models, remind me what does a drop pod cost?

2nd, why are we assuming that All the conscripts get to swing, it is highly likely they will be a bit spread out and I can hit them so that they won't max out their attacks. Same with the pile in if I clip the end of a squad and it contributes 3 or 4 guys to the assault, and then gets locked in I win. My math for the orks was for 15 of them and the Nob getting to swing. Which would do ~25 wounds. If I included the 24 that survive the overwatch 38 conscripts die. The way I look at it is neither of us will swing with everyone, I'll swing with more. Then they either choose to fight back and stay in combat, or lose the close models and basically get no retaliation. Same thing with units like commandos, you clip your opponent so they cannot swing at full effectiveness. Point of fact, there is basically no way all 50 conscripts get to fight in the combat, or all 30 remaining, it is too hard to get that many in range unless they are essentially sitting in a giant square, not screening for their army.

You continually try to make the sides even, they may not be. me having more boyz does not mean my opponent auto has a company commader buffing his unit. He might have an extra tank somewhere not helping his conscripts.

If he does it once he is arguably better than most, as transport capacity is less than 30 units for the majority. Though most are considered a bit expensive anyways.

Depends on how spread out the conscripts are. I was assuming relatively condensed, because I don't see much reason not to. With a 3" move, you are getting a good portion in the fight. Also note, if you don't consolidate towards them, and you kill all models within 1" of yours... they can just not move at all, and won't be locked into combat.

15 boys and the nob aren't even getting 20 wounds average (30 with all of them), conscripts have a 5+ save remember?

Showing you can beat a unit by using more points is rather pointless. Of course you can. But you don't get more points. If you are overspending here to deal with conscripts, the rest of your army is at a disadvantage and thus struggling.

 Galas wrote:
But I'll repeat. Boyz are perfect. The problem is with Conscripts and Guardsmen. Again'st Hormagaunts/Termagaunts or Chaos Cultists, Orks Boyz are balanced.

Eh, I disagree but I can see where you are coming from. I prioritize price tag/toughness and mobility over the potential damage for melee units and that's generally not been a bad choice in previous editions. Might not be true these days, but I just see warning signs all around them.

15 boyz get 60 attacks (if part of the larger squad), that is 40 hits, ~27 wounds, or ~18 unsaved wounds (2/3rds go through) (17.78) The Nob with PK gets 4 attacks, hits twice, likely wounds twice = 2 wounds 18+2 = 20 dead conscripts on average. 60*2/3*2/3*2/3 = 17.78. 4*.5*5/6 = 1.67, so 19.45 is the exact number. Pretty close to 20 on average. So yes they are getting 20 wounds on average.

If he removed the closest models I likely cannot hold him anyway but then he doesn't swing back at all. If he doesn't and I've piled in enough to hold him if possible, it is still likely that the remaining 30 models cannot all be within 1" of a model within 1" of my boyz.

It is realistically very hard to get that many models into combat range. If we grant it as easy. Then the orks do it as well and I get 96 attacks from the boyz 100*2/3*2/3*2/3 = 28.4 dead conscripts + nob = 30.
Only 20 to strike back, which do 2 wounds to the orks. He loses another model to morale leaving 19 for next turn. Then they are stuck in and I murder the rest next turn. Their best situation the next turn is to charge me with 100 more conscripts (which somehow all can get in combat (they likely cannot).

If likely he cannot charge with both squads and get max into combat, then either more orks survive the first squads charge, or if only once charges.
I interrupt with command points and kill off the first squad (average kills it to a maybe 2 models).

Stay tied up with the second squad with my 18 boyz against the 50 man new blob, Now I have a chance to charge that with something else (maybe I jump in another squad.)

But say I don't. I swing first killing 17 guys from that group. He swings back killing 3 orks. So I have 14 + Nob, and he has 32.

On his turn he either brings the 3rd squad in or not. (Presumably it might be dealing with other things by now). If not he kills another 3 orks. I swing Killing 12 more conscripts. (and another from morale very likely), so it is 11+nob vs 19.
My turn, I kill another 12. He is down to 7 models, who might kill an ork, he might lose another to morale.

I wipe him out on his turn if nothing joins the combat, or he cannot leave.

So my 30 orks + Nob (if everything can always swing like you propose) Attrition down 2 entire conscript squads in combat, or 205 points vs 300. If the conscripts don't play to leave combat they lose. They hit on a 5+, and wound on a 5+ with a single attack. Unless they are paying points for buffs, but then I could have included more buffs for my unit as well (Waagh banner anyone?).

If I bring other squads in to help I remove all the conscripts even quicker. I'm not saying it is easy, or this will always happen. But if you assume both sides get to swing everyone, orks win.

As for why the conscripts might not be super bunched up is that not everyone will have 90, and if he is trying to bubble wrap to deny deepstrike he needs to spread out a least a little. Even bunched up only 3 rows of infantry really get to fight some are in base to base maybe 4. So it depends on how wide the ork line is.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, a Leman Russ Punisher goes through Conscripts like butter, and it comes up to only 211 points at BS3+, which is only 11 points more than the conscripts and their supporting characters.

Which will eventually kill the entire unit (but not the LC supporting them) at more points. It also doesn't really "cut through" a unit of 50. It slowly whittles down a unit of 50 if it devotes the entire game to killing just the conscripts. Between the short range, snap fire on the heavy bolters, and the possibility that the conscripts themselves could knock you down to bs 4+. Then we consider that additional blobs of conscripts don't require a separate LC, meaning 3 units of conscripts+LC vs 3 tank commanders is going to be a 133 point difference rather than 11 points.

It is better than most suggestions but no, it still doesn't actually counter the unit.

Audustum wrote:
The balancing factor now is snipers. Seriously, take 2-3 Vindicares. *BLAM* the Commissars and then smash the Conscript units.

A significant portion fo armies lack snipers (orks, chaos and tyranids). But tyranids can just spam cheap infantry as well and orks and chaos being useless garbage is considered balanced by most, so I guess that's fine. The absurdly large toolbox available to the imperium once again means other armies get screwed over.

Hogwash. The armies that lack snipers are more than capable of hitting the IG back in other ways. Orks and Tyranids swarm just as hard. Daemons have a lot of options which really depend on your patron. Take Disgustingly Resilient for example. FNP behind an armor save? Even that conscript gunline is gonna struggle when it's wounding most of the Nurgle Daemons on 5+ or 6+, then has to get through armor and then has to get through FNP. Khorne's guys seem to get plenty of attacks to kill them in melee without relying on battle shock either.

Then there's that guy who took like 9 Daemon Princes and Bel'akor as his whole army. I believe he's over in the Daemon Tactics thread and I think he also crushed an IG force.

I don't think other armies are being screwed over at all. You just have to learn to build and play different. This is a major meta shift. It's gonna be months before it's stabilized enough to know how everything shakes out.

fe40k wrote:
Makes me a little bit jealous as Orks.

Seriously though, 50 man Conscript squads just don't die, and then with FRSRF commands/fall back and shoot commands, they can get SO many shots (4 shots each at 12", up to 200! ). And here I was thinking Ork Shoota Boyz were shooty.

Sure, they can get "so many shots".
But not this way. Units may be affected by only one Order per turn, and it happens during the Movement phase.

"Get Back in the Fight" allows for you to Fall Back, if you can, and fire that turn.

Throw in some Manitcores/Wyverns, and maybe a super heavy; you've got so much firepower - and that's before the Heavy Weapon Team spam. XD

If you're taking a Superheavy, it's requiring its own Detachment.

Not sure if I'm complaining or not - That amount of firepower just decimates 30 man squads, even with a 5+ KFF. Even if you get to melee, they fall back, and shoot you with everything they've got.

It's Lasguns. No AP modifiers, nothing like that. Yeah there's a lot of shots, but you're basically unchecked for it. Hug cover as you advance and fire wildly back at the Conscripts.

I think I need more Kommando squads to tie things up; but terrain can make it tough to get there in melee (-2 charge distance is brutal).

What you need is line of sight blocking terrain. That's something people don't seem to get.

Thoughts on dealing with IG shooting as an Ork, and in general?

Make sure the table has LOS blocking terrain and don't just charge in?

If you have access to Sniper weapons, then take out the aura generators.
If you have access to things that can mess with Leadership, use it.
Etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Maybe it is just me but I think people are really over rating fall back from non-flying units.

People are over-rating a lot of stuff after 8th edition came out.

In the guard itself I would be more annoyed for the point cost of weapons for models with a 3+ or better.
Said this, I appreciate immensely that the designer finally understood that a power fist is not the same weapon in the hands of a SM captain or a guard sergeant, so I don't want to complain that much, at the moment.

What bugs me is that we're still, as far as I've seen, the only army required to outfit the leader of our squads with weapons different to the rest of the squad.
No Guard Sergeants with Lasguns or Tempestors with Hellguns is really irritating.

MaxT wrote:
Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

*Furiously looks through Chaos index to find Sniper entry*

Huh its apparently forbidden knowledge for Chaos, and Orks, and Dark Eldar, and Nids, and Genestealter Cults.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

*Furiously looks through Chaos index to find Sniper entry*

Huh its apparently forbidden knowledge for Chaos, and Orks, and Dark Eldar, and Nids, and Genestealter Cults.

It's really hard to find in the Chaos index. Part of the problem is the way GW split up the rules and gave everything wonky names. For some reason the sniper units are called Sorcerers and the sniper rifles are called Infernal Gaze. Just to be wacky, GW also made Chaos snipers only have half range, but they do get 3 shots (though admittedly they are locked to hitting on a 4+ for some reason. Demons in the scopes?)

I can totally see why you might not notice at first. GW really should work on making the indices more readable.

 Kanluwen wrote:
[
Make sure the table has LOS blocking terrain and don't just charge in?

The Mortars, Wyverns, Basilisks and Manticores crammed behind the wall of flesh just giggle and keep firing. As do the commissars, which can hide behind LOS blocking terrain yet still hand out effective immunity to morale.

Yes, Guard players can decree that you can't interact with the things that are killing your army until you murder the wall of conscripts the hard way.

Bring all the snipers in the world, but the corners of standard-issue GW ruins are quite effective at completely hiding a single model on a 25mm base.

@Kanluwen:

You can't hug cover with a 30 model squad; only elite armies (Space Marines) can reliably use cover this addition.

@Voss:

Yeah, that's the problem - the Conscripts are chaff; but 50 wounds is no joke to chew through; especially when they have a reasonable change of hurting you back.

IG vehicles meanwhile are behind this wall of chaff, and don''t need LOS to drop 4d6+ attacks on your squads of infantry/other units as they advance.

The only hope is to deepstrike in and tie them up; but GL getting that close if the Guard player is any decent.

@Audustum/other:

Xenos don't have snipers - Only Imperium armies get that now.

What are we supposed to do about support characters, without snipers? Gotta fight through everything to try and catch out a character; it's our only real way of getting to them.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

*Furiously looks through Chaos index to find Sniper entry*

Huh its apparently forbidden knowledge for Chaos, and Orks, and Dark Eldar, and Nids, and Genestealter Cults.

**Pssst** Take a Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with the Warptime power. Teleport in 9" from the Commissar. Cast Warptime for a bonus 5" move. Cast another power of your choice for lols (your choice of doing Mortal Wounds or casting Prescience to hit things better). Fire your combi-bolter at something. Make a 4" Charge. Smack him in the face with your Force Axe for no save (unless Lord Commissar who has 5+ invul) and d3 damage on each wound. Praise Lorgar.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Commissars are T3, 3 wounds and a 5+ save.

Bring snipers.

*Furiously looks through Chaos index to find Sniper entry*

Huh its apparently forbidden knowledge for Chaos, and Orks, and Dark Eldar, and Nids, and Genestealter Cults.

**Pssst** Take a Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with the Warptime power. Teleport in 9" from the Commissar. Cast Warptime for a bonus 5" move. Cast another power of your choice for lols (your choice of doing Mortal Wounds or casting Prescience to hit things better). Fire your combi-bolter at something. Make a 4" Charge. Smack him in the face with your Force Axe for no save (unless Lord Commissar who has 5+ invul) and d3 damage on each wound. Praise Lorgar.

I'm puzzled how this is done if there is a 50 man conscript unit on the table? And also little bit about how the snipers would be going to help if there is any Los blocking terrain on the table.

The point was Chaos can use teleporting Terminators, buffed by a Psychic Power, to single out enemy characters.

**Pssst** Take a Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with the Warptime power. Teleport in 9" from the Commissar. Cast Warptime for a bonus 5" move. Cast another power of your choice for lols (your choice of doing Mortal Wounds or casting Prescience to hit things better). Fire your combi-bolter at something. Make a 4" Charge. Smack him in the face with your Force Axe for no save (unless Lord Commissar who has 5+ invul) and d3 damage on each wound. Praise Lorgar.

The point was Chaos can use teleporting Terminators, buffed by a Psychic Power, to single out enemy characters.

The Same characters that have two or three 50 man Conscript squads wrapped around them. How? you have to be 9" from the conscripts too. Not just 9" from one model. The Guard deploy into a corner, then wrap the entire army in 10" deep conscripts. Good Luck.

So now they're stuck in a corner? Go take control of the all the objectives. And since you don't get cover for intervening models anymore, you just shoot the things behind with your own guns.

So now they're stuck in a corner? Go take control of the all the objectives. And since you don't get cover for intervening models anymore, you just shoot the things behind with your own guns.

Excellent, you have chosen a gun duel with Guard. They win.

it's not the conscripts alone.
If 300 conscripts + 6 commissar cost 1080 pts...even at 1500 pts you are looking at 3 more company commanders and 4 HWT with lascannons and 2 HWT with mortars. That is an unholy amunt of bodies and dakka. At 2000 you add another 5 HWT with lascannons and scout sentinels to deny even more deepstrike zones. We are talking about 300+bodies on the ground and 27 lascannons...plus orders.
Conscripts alone does not win game. they force you to use an inordinate amont of firepower to kill them all while heavy weapns kill you turn after turn. Also, conscript does not hide in a corner: they rush you and force you to react. 3 pts a body is just too low a price for what they can do. The guard is squishy, but they are too many and can bring too many guns
Edit: as stated before, if the only way to kill 600 pts of units is to employ 1200+ pts of countermeasures...you autolose.

Protip, if you are fighting a gun battle against an IG player using HWTs, shoot the HWTs with literally anything, and they will die. They are amazing points efficient on offense (and should probably have the base points bumped up, to be fair), but they fold like a house of cards, have no protection from shooting except line of sight, which only mortars ignore, so they have to be in LoS to hurt you.

Admittedly this is easier for some armies to do than others, but if you can shoot them, they die, and if they can shoot you, you can shoot them (except mortars. Mortars are good).

Scarier stuff to look out for are Manticores and other guard things that still shoot a ton, but don't insta-die to return fire.

Agreed. The only Heavy Weapons Teams I would deploy outside of a Superheavy or Bunker would be Mortars and Heavy Bolters. Simply because they are so cheap. Others are just going to die. As guard you are not going first very often.

true enough. instead of HWT, take manticores and basilisks. still scary as hell
my point was that conscripts cost a dime a dozen and still have a gret fire support. if you try to fight them, you are not fighting the rest.

Indeed. I suspect they will go up a point. Just to make up for their orders efficiency. I'm not sure if Guardsmen will or not. You have to invest a lot more to give orders to 5 guard squads. Ether way I see myself purchasing more bodies. Although probably not from GW.

 Neferhet wrote:
4 HWT with lascannons and 2 HWT with mortars. That is an unholy amunt of bodies and dakka. At 2000 you add another 5 HWT with lascannons

HWT? I don't think that word means what you think it means... HWT (Heavy Weapon Team) = single base w/one heavy weapon. HWS (Heavy Weapon SQUAD) = three bases, each with a heavy weapon for a total of three heavy weapons in the squad.

 don_mondo wrote:

 Neferhet wrote:
4 HWT with lascannons and 2 HWT with mortars. That is an unholy amunt of bodies and dakka. At 2000 you add another 5 HWT with lascannons

HWT? I don't think that word means what you think it means... HWT (Heavy Weapon Team) = single base w/one heavy weapon. HWS (Heavy Weapon SQUAD) = three bases, each with a heavy weapon for a total of three heavy weapons in the squad.

yes absolutely.

sooooo Elysians!!!

Having faced 2 IG armies now, I can confirm they put out a lot of Dakka. They seem suited to take down armies that are right in the middle concerning numbers/toughness which conveniently happens to be space marines. Since space marines make up likely half or more of armies you face, they are pretty good.

I'd love to see a fight between 2 horded up IG armies, if anyone has enough dice to make that happen.

Might need to digitize, as there might not be enough dice in the whole store/club

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Might need to digitize, as there might not be enough dice in the whole store/club

There's enough dice all right, but who wants to count it all out?