We're a few weeks in, and people have had a chance to test the waters a bit, and while I'm a big proponent for 8th, and I really do believe that GW are really trying this time, and I'm willing to forgive a lot in the Indexes because I believe they are very far from representative of what the different codex are gonna look like, it's still interesting to see what unit was crowbared into your army just to make good on the "everything we currently sell is gonna have rules" promise and compare or maybe have someone dispute the judgment of lowest rung unit.
Who knows, maybe someone will show you the way you've missed to use that unit.
For me, as an AdMech, it's Servitors.
Servitors have the ridiculously unflexible unit size of 4.
They have a statline of ws 5+/bs 5+, but realistically will have 4+/4+, as they do benefit from a tech priest within 6" unlocking their mindlock. Still. It's another limitation.
Their base cost of 2 makes you think that maybe you can use them as disposable wounds, but then you realise that they come as standard with a servo-arm for 11 points.
This makes them a 13 point model with T3 and a 4+ save and nothing else for survivability. They've only got a single wound each. That's a very soft target.
So surely that servo arm means they are a melee unit? Well.. no. They're Move 5" with no options for transports, and they have one single attack.
The one thing that they can do, is be a heavy weapons team, as they can take two heavy weapons, and a plasma cannon is 21 points. That's a really good price tag... on anything else.
But making these two 23 points each is basically throwing away the points.
a 4+ to hit weapon team, that becomes 5+ if they have to move a single step, 6+ if their priest leaves them too, that can in no way get more than two extra bodies to die before them, and even those for being T3 4+sv are coming at a steep price means they just don't have any place on the field. If you could at least get some more bodies in the unit, even at 13 points per wound, they would at least not die to the first round of small arms fire.
I just can't find a use for these things, and it feels like they were mostly thrown in for completion. There's nothing they synergise with. I think the best use case is cheesing with the Understrength Unit rule, making it a 2 man unit rather than taking the extra two servo arms, then running two plasmacannons and just hoping you get first round so you can get one round of shooting with them. Maybe that's worth the 46 points?
Chaos: All the Khorne units I've fielded so far have been fine (or amazing) and I haven't heard many complaints from most chaos players. The only thing that comes close are cultists, they seem like your paying points for a dead unit because they will die easy, literally anything will beat them off of the objective they're sat on.
Imperial Guard: Vanquishers are a bit lack luster this edition.
Orks: Despite the vast number of losses reported they aren't looking bad, the only unit that seems that bad are the flyers which don't really put any hurt down this edition without the blasts from bombs.
Blood Angels: Not really seen much here except some Sanguinion guard get vaporised on the turn they deep struck.
Imperial knights: Consentrated fire power (from firing lines at least) can take one down a turn and the chainsword is quite bad compared to the feet.
Dark Eldar: Only played one game against them but Wyches do not seem to hit as hard as people have been claiming, neither do a lot of their units. Of course might be bias: it was our first game of 8th ed and I took Zerkers.
Those are just the armies I've been able to take a good look at in action so far (none of this "well they're theoretically bad").
Automatically Appended Next Post:
G00fySmiley wrote: a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights
Has anyone played a game with one yet? Yes they're expensive but maybe in practise they'll bring the hurt...
Grots - 3 pts for s2 t2 ld4. When you can have 6 pts boyz with a free nob, mob rule, and all the great stuff
Runtherd - cause of grots
3 types of big meks after the faq - They're pretty expensive and now can't really cover all that much with clarifications to "entirely within". Can still be used in walker lists, i guess, but why not just take an extra walker instead?
Burna bomber - all ork flyers are quite mediocre but the burna bomber does exactly what a blitza bomber does but worse.
Flash gitz - too expensive and too restrictive. With the clarifications to battle fortress and no re-rolls inside transports they're pretty worthless. Traditionally so.
Killa kanz - they're not as bad as in 7-th but still one of the worst walkers in the game.
Meganobz (arguably) - just too expensive. And lost so much punch. They're still almost twice as tough as boyz point-for-point vs small arms fire but are less choppy and anything with multi-damage and some ap chews through them really quickly.
Biker nobz - so expensive. Regular bikers ain't amazing but are still better than nob bikers.
2 types of painboyz - cause if you REALLY want to field a painboy to supplement your amazing wierdboys you take Grotsnik
Stompa - too expensive, doesn't do all that much damage and easy to deal with
3 types of buggies - cause koptas are better
That's around 50% of the codex. Which is still an improvement over the last codex! So, not bad, i guess.
Chaos: All the Khorne units I've fielded so far have been fine (or amazing) and I haven't heard many complaints from most chaos players. The only thing that comes close are cultists, they seem like your paying points for a dead unit because they will die easy, literally anything will beat them off of the objective they're sat on.
Imperial Guard: Vanquishers are a bit lack luster this edition.
Orks: Despite the vast number of losses reported they aren't looking bad, the only unit that seems that bad are the flyers which don't really put any hurt down this edition without the blasts from bombs.
Blood Angels: Not really seen much here except some Sanguinion guard get vaporised on the turn they deep struck.
Imperial knights: Consentrated fire power (from firing lines at least) can take one down a turn and the chainsword is quite bad compared to the feet.
Dark Eldar: Only played one game against them but Wyches do not seem to hit as hard as people have been claiming, neither do a lot of their units. Of course might be bias: it was our first game of 8th ed and I took Zerkers.
Those are just the armies I've been able to take a good look at in action so far (none of this "well they're theoretically bad").
Automatically Appended Next Post:
G00fySmiley wrote: a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights
Has anyone played a game with one yet? Yes they're expensive but maybe in practise they'll bring the hurt...
I have taken a stompa on several occasions, they have a lot of guns that hit like ork shooting so you roll d3,d6, 2d6 shots so average 1,2,or 4 hits. they do well in combat but playing a 2 knights list they were taken out within a few turns. 40 wounds is nice but when you are losing them d3 and d6 at a time they go fast 12" move also goes down quick as they go down to 9 inches for movement at 20 wounds and 6 inches at 20. I put a kff big mek plus some nobz inside it keeps getting crippled before they even get to pile out to charge (and whiel 5++ is good for 1/3 dmg reduction it is not exactly reliable). in one game I was taken to below 30 wounds by a single lascannon dev squad. (3 hits, 11 wounds so not exactly a stellar roll on his part either)
It would be not overcosted around 600 points but still not worth bringing and it would be a great value at around 500... really it should probably fall somewhere in the middle there and is ~300 points over costed which is cripplingly useless at non apocalypse size games.
There are plenty of underwhelming choices for the IG. The Vanquisher, as mentioned, is pretty worthless, as is the exterminator. The Taurox has a nasty case of anti-synergy, merging a high speed transport with 30pts worth of not very good long range shooting.
But the real winner for garbage has to be Wyrdvane Psykers, who are somehow worse than Astropaths, which are the exact same battlefield role and can even be played with the same models.
I wouldn't say "absolute" garbage, but yeah pretty much
I'd add Pink Horrors in Matched Play to that as well. Literally no reason to take 1 Pink when 5 Brims cost the same for 5x the wounds
But conversely, Pinks are absolute gold in Narrative games because Split is free and 10 Pinks cost the same as 10 Brims, yet 10 pinks include 20 Blues and 20 Brims
Talk about balance. A unit should not be utter crap in 1 form of play, yet a near auto-take in another.
Daemonblades, Helrifles, Conversion Beamers, special grenades, relics, the list goes on and on. Half my Inquisition is now simply no longer playable if I want to WYSIWYG, and the other half either isn't technically Inquisition anymore or lost all of it's appeal. I guess Coteaz is still usable, but I've always preffered the radical Inquisitor style - and that's (option-wise) entirely dead. But out of all that, the Jokaero are the worst.
Seriously, how are Jokaero not Characters, but a single model with 3 wounds, with no option to add another one, and their digital weapons got crippled, too. Oh, and their buff is limited to <Ordo> units, which is literally just Inquisitors, Acolythes and other Jokaero. Awesome.
I have 4 and I will give them a try, but I'm not looking forward to it. Maybe just have them twin-link each other and snipe with their lascannon nope, their digital weapons are still crippled.
I wouldn't say "absolute" garbage, but yeah pretty much
I'd add Pink Horrors in Matched Play to that as well. Literally no reason to take 1 Pink when 5 Brims cost the same for 5x the wounds
But conversely, Pinks are absolute gold in Narrative games because Split is free and 10 Pinks cost the same as 10 Brims, yet 10 pinks include 20 Blues and 20 Brims
Talk about balance. A unit should not be utter crap in 1 form of play, yet a near auto-take in another.
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"Split" was over corrected. It was never an issue in competitive play (Everyone just used brimstones for efficiency.), and GW swung the nerf bat to "contain the problem" that was only a problem because of the psychic phase. I'm confident we may see things toned down less as things are updated in the future.
I wouldn't say "absolute" garbage, but yeah pretty much
I'd add Pink Horrors in Matched Play to that as well. Literally no reason to take 1 Pink when 5 Brims cost the same for 5x the wounds
But conversely, Pinks are absolute gold in Narrative games because Split is free and 10 Pinks cost the same as 10 Brims, yet 10 pinks include 20 Blues and 20 Brims
Talk about balance. A unit should not be utter crap in 1 form of play, yet a near auto-take in another.
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No, price should be upped across the board, and splitting horrors should be accounted for in that cost, working as they are supposed to in Matched as well. Saving points to come in later in summons is fine, saving them for eventualities that may not come is not gonna happen. Why would you even do that if you can just get all of the horrors at once instead and guarantee them on the board instead of having to wait for your opponent to activate them?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this will probably be revisited in the proper codex though.
Assault Centurions... 4" move on an assault unit, and can only ride in land raiders and storm ravens. Also, they cost a boatload of points, and have no invulnerable save. Yeah, they're trash.
But the real winner for garbage has to be Wyrdvane Psykers, who are somehow worse than Astropaths, which are the exact same battlefield role and can even be played with the same models.
Perhaps I'm misreading something here but a-are implying that the Astropath is bad in any way shape or form? Cause as he is right now, he's absurdly undercosted and may perhaps be the best force multiplier in the game for 15 points.
But the real winner for garbage has to be Wyrdvane Psykers, who are somehow worse than Astropaths, which are the exact same battlefield role and can even be played with the same models.
Perhaps I'm misreading something here but a-are implying that the Astropath is bad in any way shape or form? Cause as he is right now, he's absurdly undercosted and may perhaps be the best force multiplier in the game for 15 points.
Yes, I was very unclear. The Astropath is wicked good despite being cheaper than a minimum squad and enjoying protection from character status.
I wouldn't say "absolute" garbage, but yeah pretty much
I'd add Pink Horrors in Matched Play to that as well. Literally no reason to take 1 Pink when 5 Brims cost the same for 5x the wounds
But conversely, Pinks are absolute gold in Narrative games because Split is free and 10 Pinks cost the same as 10 Brims, yet 10 pinks include 20 Blues and 20 Brims
Talk about balance. A unit should not be utter crap in 1 form of play, yet a near auto-take in another.
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No, price should be upped across the board, and splitting horrors should be accounted for in that cost, working as they are supposed to in Matched as well. Saving points to come in later in summons is fine, saving them for eventualities that may not come is not gonna happen. Why would you even do that if you can just get all of the horrors at once instead and guarantee them on the board instead of having to wait for your opponent to activate them?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this will probably be revisited in the proper codex though.
If you think ALL horrors should have their price increased then I believe you have a poor idea of balance. Currently pinks are not used, period, due to cost and inefficiency with split. People would simply not play Daemons if they somehow made them more expensive.
*If you are stating price should be REDUCED for all three options COMBINED with split, that would be more accurate. Because a single splitting pink horror costs 24pts, and is useless to me when a squad of 11 models with a single split costs 23.
I also disagree that saving them for casualties won't happen, because in all of my games I've done exactly that. Why would you? Because advancing constantly and summoning backfield horrors that didn't exist on turn 3-4, but are there now to hold a point, is a terrific ability to have.
I wouldn't say "absolute" garbage, but yeah pretty much
I'd add Pink Horrors in Matched Play to that as well. Literally no reason to take 1 Pink when 5 Brims cost the same for 5x the wounds
But conversely, Pinks are absolute gold in Narrative games because Split is free and 10 Pinks cost the same as 10 Brims, yet 10 pinks include 20 Blues and 20 Brims
Talk about balance. A unit should not be utter crap in 1 form of play, yet a near auto-take in another.
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No, price should be upped across the board, and splitting horrors should be accounted for in that cost, working as they are supposed to in Matched as well. Saving points to come in later in summons is fine, saving them for eventualities that may not come is not gonna happen. Why would you even do that if you can just get all of the horrors at once instead and guarantee them on the board instead of having to wait for your opponent to activate them?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this will probably be revisited in the proper codex though.
If you think ALL horrors should have their price increased then I believe you have a poor idea of balance. Currently pinks are not used, period, due to cost and inefficiency with split. People would simply not play Daemons if they somehow made them more expensive.
I also disagree that saving them for casualties won't happen, because in all of my games I've done exactly that. Why would you? Because advancing constantly and summoning backfield horrors that didn't exist on turn 3-4, but are there now to hold a point, is a terrific ability to have.
I think all horrors that can split should have that represented in their initial cost, instead of being priced like individual units. I think splitting should just be what they do, instead of being an option that you pay for as you go along. What are you gaining from not just running all three units, all three types of horrors, down the field instead of waiting for them to pop out? Sure, they can then be mass fired down, but then you've got something else that isn't being shot at instead, right? Because they could have been taken down by the same amount of fire over 3 rounds instead, leaving more open to pick off other units in your army if you choose the summoning path. And if they happen to hit a wall of conscripts, the three units will take it down considerably quicker than one unit that then becomes another that then becomes another, right?
Being more nimble around the field is the one bonus I see. You're not gonna take up a huge swat of land with way too many models.
If you remove the option to select individual horror models as a unit type, you need to REDUCE their cost. You stated they should be increased, which would destroy the unit.
Pink horrors are useless specifically due to their cost.
A single squad of pink horrors, if split was factored in, costs 240pts. If you even attempt to increase that then Fielding even a basic BATALLION for Tzeentch will cost nearly 1000pts before adding anything other than Tax.
As to what I gain from them being separate? I have multiple, smaller, weaker units I can comfortably leave behind to camp objectives. Exactly what horde troops are useful for. Summoning is tied to power rating, and I do not want nor need to rely on summoning things that are effectively unlikely to ever be summoned.
As far as not taking up a large amount of space with back field summoning, once again I disagree. I can summon 30 Brimstone's for 60 points with a roll of around 10+ on 3d6.
I do not think you play Daemons, or have not played them in 8th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an additional note, if you FORCE all pinks to split, this means the average cost for a single troop choice currently would be 240pts, $105, and a total of 50 models built and painted.
koooaei wrote: Grots - 3 pts for s2 t2 ld4. When you can have 6 pts boyz with a free nob, mob rule, and all the great stuff
Runtherd - cause of grots
3 types of big meks after the faq - They're pretty expensive and now can't really cover all that much with clarifications to "entirely within". Can still be used in walker lists, i guess, but why not just take an extra walker instead?
Burna bomber - all ork flyers are quite mediocre but the burna bomber does exactly what a blitza bomber does but worse.
Flash gitz - too expensive and too restrictive. With the clarifications to battle fortress and no re-rolls inside transports they're pretty worthless. Traditionally so.
Killa kanz - they're not as bad as in 7-th but still one of the worst walkers in the game.
Meganobz (arguably) - just too expensive. And lost so much punch. They're still almost twice as tough as boyz point-for-point vs small arms fire but are less choppy and anything with multi-damage and some ap chews through them really quickly.
Biker nobz - so expensive. Regular bikers ain't amazing but are still better than nob bikers.
2 types of painboyz - cause if you REALLY want to field a painboy to supplement your amazing wierdboys you take Grotsnik
Stompa - too expensive, doesn't do all that much damage and easy to deal with
3 types of buggies - cause koptas are better
That's around 50% of the codex. Which is still an improvement over the last codex! So, not bad, i guess.
Painboys on a bike is a great thing, and Big meks still rocks. And while Flash Gitz and Gretchins are useless Skorchas, Bikers, Nob Bikers and Manz are at least decent. On the other hand you forgot to mention Lobbas and Burnas which are even worse than Flash Gitz. Many of Orks units simply suffer from "while perfectly decent it is still not as good as taking more boyz and weirdboyz instead"
First, on the Splitting Horrors topic: I think that you should only be able to take Pink Horrors in your initial list, and that they should cost like 14 ppm or something with free splits into blues and brims as appropriate. You only get the little horrors when Pinks die rather than being able to take just a unit of Brims for 20 pts. To me, that is cheesier than splitting Horrors, that you can spam stupidly cheap and durable Brims instead of having to take the bigger ones.
As for what's useless in my armies:
Dark Angels: Servitors (for the same reasons as the AdMech ones the OP mentioned), Land Speeder Typhoons (too expensive for how fragile they are), Drop Pods (way too expensive especially since they can't get a squad close enough to do that much, at least with some weapons).
Tau: Aun'shi (a melee Tau character that's not a battlesuit? No, just no.), Riptides (GW hit these big guys with the nerf bat really hard), Shield Drones (the FAQ put the final nail in their coffin).
Chaos Space Marines: Forgefiend (too expensive for what it does). Really not all that bad, though.
Death Guard: Lord of Contagion (Comparable wargear and stats to Typhus, but lacking some of his abilities and costing 20 points more?!)
Chaos Daemons: Furies (many reasons), Screamers (too expensive for what they do), Soul Grinder (too expensive, but perhaps I just haven't figured out its niche yet).
Celestians, and to a lesser degree, Exorcists and Repentia.
Celestians are expensive Battle Sisters, iwth +1 WS and a bodyguard rule. Except the only character we have worth protecting with something this expensive doesn't even need the protection.
Exorcists are now outclassed in firepower by pretty much every other dedicated tank, even outclassed by razorbacks and immolators to an extent, with random hits, and random reduced damage. Even retributors with heavy bolters are arguably better.
Repentia are a long way better than before... but they're still expensive, fragile units.
Granted, of these, nly the exorcist was a mainstay before.
Imperial Guard: Some variety of Leman Russ. At least the Basilisk is cheap. Or veterans probably, since ordinary guardsmen are cheaper and don't come in platoons anymore [and can't make a big squad anymore either]
Sisters of Battle: Celestians. I can't find a use for them, that wouldn't be better served for less by Battle Sisters, and even better served by Dominions. And, since they nerfed Seraphim Hand Flamers and decreased the cost of Storm Bolters, the only reason I can see to take anything other than Dominions is to have a unit of Seraphim to follow Celestine around and absorb fire/surround tanks for her to kill.
I'm going to have to disagree about the Chaos Cultists. I run two squads of 22-ish, and they take some real time to chew through. It's also not a pricey way to sneak some flamers in.
Cultist only seem bad because Imperial Guards are much better and cheaper.
But I'm pretty sure that after Codex drop and you can't mix Imperial Guard with Normal Space Marines without losing sinergies, faction stratagems, etc... but you can field Cultists and Chaos Space Marines together, that situation will be corrected.
ZergSmasher wrote: First, on the Splitting Horrors topic: I think that you should only be able to take Pink Horrors in your initial list, and that they should cost like 14 ppm or something with free splits into blues and brims as appropriate. You only get the little horrors when Pinks die rather than being able to take just a unit of Brims for 20 pts. To me, that is cheesier than splitting Horrors, that you can spam stupidly cheap and durable Brims instead of having to take the bigger ones.
This is similar to my ideas posted here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730757.page I'd be ok with Pink and/or Blues as viable options to begin the unit, with Brims only seeing the table if Blues die
I'd be happy if we all took the Split Horror discussion here.
Reaver Jet Bikes, went from being the best unit in the codex to arguably the worst, doubled in price but without Skilled Rider's old 3+ cover save are actually more fragile even with the 2 wounds and 4+ armour save. No real improvement in their shooting and their close combat ability has dropped like a stone, there is literally nothing they can do that half a dozen other unit sin the index can't already do better, and in many cases for cheaper as well.
Lorek wrote: I'm going to have to disagree about the Chaos Cultists. I run two squads of 22-ish, and they take some real time to chew through. It's also not a pricey way to sneak some flamers in.
And an absolute godsend against the deep striking nightmare units out there.
G00fySmiley wrote: a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights
PODS
What are you talking about? I assume you're talking about Drop Pods, and they seem, to me, pretty decent.
Well I disagree the 9" rule and the point cost. Why take pods when you get razorback spam. Pods being Nerfed shelved my whole army.
it's okay to disagree
Not a fan of what they did to pods.
~ triple the price
They now come in when you want them and don’t scatter. Except you already got half of them turn one and they had the guidence to mitigate scatter anyway. Even with a bad scatter roll, you were still in meta/flamer range after you disembarked. So while a buff, it’s a minor one.
Need to drop 9” away. Ouch. No more drop flamers. But the kicker is the troops getting out also need to be 9” away, and as they arrive at the end of the movement phase, you can’t get any closer. OK I guess for non-melta, non-flamer shooting units that can’t deepstrike on their own. I say shooting units, because most marine assault units can natively DS, so aren’t getting anything out of the pod.
They can only hold infantry. No dreads, no cents, no terminators/jump packs/primaris. Just basic guys
I get that pods were a little cheep for what they did. And that’s when people were paying points for them. But this is a little too hard of a nerf.
I still might take one with my sternguard, or if I want to take a footslogging character like cassius or sicarius. But the day of the drop pod is over.
The rest of it I understand-- the "9 inches away" thing is a standardized thing they're doing now and it does make things simpler since IIRC every unit that can deep strike or have other special deployments have that rule.
But I do agree that the price is out of whack and the limitation on units that can use it is bad-- a slight increase would easily have been justified, but triple is overdoing it. And it both screwed some armies over and renders some very fluffy armies illegal to be unable to drop pod dreads.
For eldar the worst unit has to be Dire Avenger. At 17ppm they are absurdly over priced for what they do. Less T, Save, and a comparable gun to a marine and more expensive. Ya overwatch on 5 is nice but most of these will be killed before you even get a chance to charge them. The exarch upgrades are nigh useless. Guardians arnt that great either so it pretty much shoehorns me into taking all the detachments that dont require troops.
Imateria wrote: Reaver Jet Bikes, went from being the best unit in the codex to arguably the worst, doubled in price but without Skilled Rider's old 3+ cover save are actually more fragile even with the 2 wounds and 4+ armour save. No real improvement in their shooting and their close combat ability has dropped like a stone, there is literally nothing they can do that half a dozen other unit sin the index can't already do better, and in many cases for cheaper as well.
Sadly I have to agree.
For Harlequin: the Death Jester. Pretty low firepower, no melee weapons. His abilities (pick the model that flees from moral in the unit he attacked, and targetting characters) are pretty meh and don't justify the cost.
koooaei wrote: Grots - 3 pts for s2 t2 ld4. When you can have 6 pts boyz with a free nob, mob rule, and all the great stuff
They are a buffer/utility unit. They do a lot of good in this edition esp when buffed. When you roll up against an assaulty opponent they will buffer you from being charged. They can also be used to take the overwatch so other units don't need to.
Runtherd - cause of grots
It's a cheap character that actually has a decent weapons, decently tough. Actually pretty good for the points.
3 types of big meks after the faq - They're pretty expensive and now can't really cover all that much with clarifications to "entirely within". Can still be used in walker lists, i guess, but why not just take an extra walker instead?
There's dozens and dozens of useful builds on them, some offensive, some buff, some are a mixture, plus they repair stuff. Big mek on a warbike with two komba skorchas is a funny combo.
Burna bomber - all ork flyers are quite mediocre but the burna bomber does exactly what a blitza bomber does but worse.
Still not useless
2 types of painboyz - cause if you REALLY want to field a painboy to supplement your amazing wierdboys you take Grotsnik
Grotsnik is a 1 only, special character
3 types of buggies - cause koptas are better
Except, two are wartrakks, only one is a buggy. Koptas are 4W, buggies are 5W and trakks are 6W. Koptas aren't better per se. Koptas are more fragile and cost more points.
I cant be bothered responding to the rest of your post...
Painboys on a bike is a great thing, and Big meks still rocks.
Not sure why you need a biker painboy - he's 100+ pts. If you're running a painboy to supplement your forces, you're better off just taking more of those forces. If you're running him to heal up your wierdboyz and still supplement your forces, you're better off with Grotsnik as he's a painboy with 5+ fnp, warboss damage output, 4+ armor for just a couple points more than a regular painboy. And you don't need to move fast to help out your wierdboys.
pismakron wrote: Skorchas, Bikers, Nob Bikers and Manz are at least decent.
I didn't include bikers in the useless list. In fact, i think that min squads with free nobs are passable. However, they outshine nob bikers cause those are simply WAY too expensive for the mediocre durability they possess. Why would you really need nob bikers? If you want Skorchas are also too expensive for what they do. And you can't shoot them the turn they arrive. They might fit in mech lists but why would you take any of the buggies for such a price over koptas or warbikerz is beyond me. Warbikers are tougher and deal more damage point-for-pont. Koptas cost almost the same, have mortal wound bombs, 1 more str in mellee and Fly. Yep, they are a bit less durable but speed, fly and bommz compensate for it.
As for MANz, opinions differ. I've tried them out and they might have a place in some lists - i'm just so disappointed they're nothing like 7-th bully boyz. And i have 15 manz standing on the shelf. Of which i might only use 3 or 6 at best.
pismakron wrote: On the other hand you forgot to mention Lobbas and Burnas which are even worse than Flash Gitz. Many of Orks units simply suffer from "while perfectly decent it is still not as good as taking more boyz and weirdboyz instead"
Lobbas, like all big and mek gunz are very inefficient at actually dealing damage point for point but are otherwise our best option for backfield scoring. So, min squads are good enough to use for this sole purpose. And on the bright side, it doesn't really matter what gun variant you take - they all are equally underwhelming at killing stuff.
Burnas still fit in trukks and wagonz if you're running mech. Their damage output point-for-point is almost identical to shootaboyz but they take up less space. And can burn flyers for a wound or two. Can be more or less effectively taken in a battlewagon alongside nobz.
A week ago I would have said "nothing, everything in the Thousand Sons list is at least usable", but I'm pretty sure there's never a situation you'd take an Exalted Sorcerer post-FAQ when a Daemon Prince is so much better for only a few points more...
Space Wolves: Fenrisian Wolves - Someone slapped a price rise on a unit that's slower, has lower leadership, is easier to kill and can no longer play bodyguard to characters.
Runner Up: Drop Pod - Can no longer carry a Dreadnought.
I really can't see what he offers. I think he's supposed to be a character sniper but his weapon isn't good enough to kill anything but the weakest cheap Guard characters, and even then it takes two turns.
I really can't see what he offers. I think he's supposed to be a character sniper but his weapon isn't good enough to kill anything but the weakest cheap Guard characters, and even then it takes two turns.
Sounds a lot like the same problem the Vindicare has. Costs a lot of points for a role that it really just kind of half-asses in a job that really is all-or-nothing.
Wyches - For all the hype they ain't that great, if they get into melee they can survive alot but they will most likely not do any damage in return. Thou I had 19 +1 succubus take down a bloodthirster.
Archon - this guy is useless with a strong contender for worst aura in the game. You can use his LD9 within 6".... Almost all units have LD8 and squads bigger than 5 is a waste.
Court - everyone of them is overcost and don't do much. Lhamea and Medusae being the worst, Sslyth atleast can dish out some pain but for 44p there are way better options.
Hellions - same problems as in last edition, t3 5+ save 1w for 17p. Even a 10man of gretchins will kill these guys with shooting.
Reavers - someone already pointed out why its bad.
When compared with the wave serpent I can see no reason to take them. The serpent carries more guys, is far more durable and is a lot cheaper. I guess it has slightly less dakka than a falcon, but that does not come close to compensating for the other points.
** which is unfortunate, as falcons are my favorite elder tank!
When compared with the wave serpent I can see no reason to take them. The serpent carries more guys, is far more durable and is a lot cheaper. I guess it has slightly less dakka than a falcon, but that does not come close to compensating for the other points.
** which is unfortunate, as falcons are my favorite elder tank!
Sadly, this has been true for a while now. The pulse laser is a nice gun, but a falcon doesn’t bring anything to the table that a 2xbrightlance WS doesn’t. With being able to shoot all you guns at different targets, the fact that it can have a flexible loadout is a little more viable, but not worth the serious markup it has over the serpent.
It’s not like it’s a bad tank, just overshadowed (again) by the WS. As for if it’s overpriced, or the WS is underpriced, I’m not sure. That requires more of a big picture view then I have right now.
And I’m with you on the favorite tank bit. The WD introducing it is the first one in my collection, and they are the reason I started Eldar.
Tau: Aun'shi (a melee Tau character that's not a battlesuit? No, just no.), Riptides (GW hit these big guys with the nerf bat really hard), Shield Drones (the FAQ put the final nail in their coffin).
I'd say Riptide has a really niche job now (taunt master), but its performance is not even close to what it was back in 7th.
Aun'Shi and Shield Drones: dead and buried!
I'd add:
GW:
- Sniper Drones: no MWs on them makes just easier to opt for other choices that can kill what's between you and the character instead.
- Sky Ray: only viable in big numbers and not an AA platform anymore (lol).
- Tidewall Gunrig: the tower not firing with a model's BS is just plain bad (and now is way expensive).
FW:
- Shas'O R'myr: you can build a normal Commander with its build - flechette pods notwithstanding (a bunch of S4 AP0 attacks - wooo scary).
- Commander in XV81: losing 2 slots for a SMS isn't a good trade.
- Tetra: 1 shot for 3 markerlight, but the weapon is heavy and Tetras don't ignore heavy penalties. No scout redeploy, outflank or homing beacons. A shadow of what it was.
- Heavy Gun Drone: 38p for 2 burst cannons at BS5+ T4 W3? 3 gun drones do the same for 24p and don't eat up a HS slot.
Imateria wrote: Reaver Jet Bikes, went from being the best unit in the codex to arguably the worst, doubled in price but without Skilled Rider's old 3+ cover save are actually more fragile even with the 2 wounds and 4+ armour save. No real improvement in their shooting and their close combat ability has dropped like a stone, there is literally nothing they can do that half a dozen other unit sin the index can't already do better, and in many cases for cheaper as well.
Agreed. They seem especially bad compared to Eldar Shining Spears, who cost just a little more but are more resilient (3+ armour save and 4++ against shooting), have better shooting (since their good guns aren't limited to 1-per-3) and hit much, much harder in combat.
I'd also add Bloodbrides. Still Wyches that pay a lot more for . . . basically nothing.
When compared with the wave serpent I can see no reason to take them. The serpent carries more guys, is far more durable and is a lot cheaper. I guess it has slightly less dakka than a falcon, but that does not come close to compensating for the other points.
** which is unfortunate, as falcons are my favorite elder tank!
Sadly, this has been true for a while now. The pulse laser is a nice gun, but a falcon doesn’t bring anything to the table that a 2xbrightlance WS doesn’t. With being able to shoot all you guns at different targets, the fact that it can have a flexible loadout is a little more viable, but not worth the serious markup it has over the serpent.
It’s not like it’s a bad tank, just overshadowed (again) by the WS. As for if it’s overpriced, or the WS is underpriced, I’m not sure. That requires more of a big picture view then I have right now.
And I’m with you on the favorite tank bit. The WD introducing it is the first one in my collection, and they are the reason I started Eldar.
My first 40k tank also.
Never bought a wave serpent.
No plans to do so either.
G00fySmiley wrote: a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights
Has anyone played a game with one yet? Yes they're expensive but maybe in practise they'll bring the hurt...
Fun to play, but suffers from the Rock/Paper/Scissors nature of super heavies, and the low BS of Orks.
Faced off against 1000 points of Dark Imperium Primaris Marines, and he managed to chew 22 wounds off of it, and he could have played better....
The stompa has like 7 shooting attacks, and barely hits with any of them, making the most sound tactic to run in and just stomp on things (12 Attacks), Disengage, Shoot, Charge, Repeat.
It was alot of fun to play, but against a more mobile, or more heavily armed force, I think it would have struggled. It's probably overcosted.
Ok, wow, so you have wildly misunderstood what I was saying, to the point where you're claiming I'm saying the opposite of what I am.
Let's try to break it down.
Cephalobeard wrote: If you remove the option to select individual horror models as a unit type, you need to REDUCE their cost. You stated they should be increased, which would destroy the unit.
Pink horrors are useless specifically due to their cost.
A single squad of pink horrors, if split was factored in, costs 240pts.
Ok, so a pink horror right now costs 10 points. If you factor in the 10 points it becomes in blue horrors, and the brimstone are 2 points for the pair, so that's a total of 24 points (as you hint at.) Then it is my opinion that the pink horror cost should be INCREASED to about 20-22, and the splitting should be free, and no longer be considered summoning. It's just a passive effect. I'm sure you can see how 20 is an INCREASE from 10. I do however think that the total cost should be slightly less than the total cost of each bought separately, as I believe it's stronger to have them all at once... which we'll get to in a second.
It might even be that pinks are overcosted at 20~odd points even with the above change, but that's a different matter. The specific points aren't important to my argument. My argument is simply that pinks should cost the same as all the models that they eventually spit out combined, minus a few points to make it more worth than just having the same models without all the splitting.
I have multiple, smaller, weaker units I can comfortably leave behind to camp objectives. Exactly what horde troops are useful for. Summoning is tied to power rating, and I do not want nor need to rely on summoning things that are effectively unlikely to ever be summoned.
I know. This was my point. This was why I asked when you said you thought it was "a terrific ability to have" when they were tied up in having to die before summoning.
As far as not taking up a large amount of space with back field summoning, once again I disagree. I can summon 30 Brimstone's for 60 points with a roll of around 10+ on 3d6.
I have no idea what you're disagreeing with here, as it's nothing I have even touched on. I honestly don't know what this sentence is, or what it means.
Battlewagon, its a 161pt transport whose only useful upgrade is a Deff rolla which is finally decent again after 3 years. (OHh and the Ard Top which gives it T8 which it should have already had, hold over for Open topped is my guess, can't make ork stuff better then imperium)
Big Gunz: 8pt model sweet! Ohh, you have to buy the gun, and the krew....So that 8pt Kannon (worth it) just became a 27pt Kannon with 3 wounds and a 5+ save and no access to rerolls
Blitza BOmmer: 134pts or a bommer that once it drops its 2 bombs is useless. You are better off taking Deff Koptas.
Burna Boyz: 14pts for a Boy with a 8in Flamer that does D3 instead of D6.....yeah the -2 AP in melee is nice but won't statistically do much for you. Burna-Bommer: Like the Blitza but even crappier.
Dakkajet: 148pts for 18 S6 -1 AP shots at BS3 (4+ to hit and only if ALL weapons target the same unit). Against Tac Marines this will do 3 casualties. So it needs to stay alive for 5 turns in order to make back its points doing this. Of course if those Marines are in cover those 3 casualties becomes 2 and then its even longer before it makes its points back.
Deff Dreadz: They exist solely to be target practice for opposing armies. 114pts for a Deff Dread armed with Dread klaws only that give it a grand total of 6 attacks at WS3 not even WS2. And just to really rub it in, it only moves 6in. To add insult to injury a regular SM Dreadnought is 19pts more expensive and comes standard with 2 less attacks at the same WS and with even more strength (12 to our 10) It also comes stock with an assault cannon which pushes out insane levels of dakka this edition and a Stormbolter So at max range its pushing out 6 S6 shots with -1 AP and 2 S4 shots. Yet again, we can't have nicer things then the imperium.
Flash Gitz: Same problems as last edition, 27pts for a 6+ armor save, and if you put them in a Wagon to protect your investment then you are losing out on all buffs and rerolls, not to mention creating a 300-450pts unit that is barely effective at shooting because of range and restrictions (If it moves those super expensive 4+ to hit gunz become 5+)
Gretchin: 3pts for a terrible model that will run away at first chance because they don't have mob rule and have LD4, you are required to take a Runtherd with them so tack on a 26pt Boy model with 3 attacks instead of 2 who gets to kill D3 grots to make them pass morale. They are literally useless for EVERYTHING except as chaff.
Killa Kanz: Still a bad investment in this game. The only weapon worth taking on a Kan these days is the Rokkit which went up in price 140% The Grotzooka was OK because it was a cheap Heavy 2 Blast weapon but with the rule change ALL Ork blast weapons are basically useless. They are still slow, they somehow got even MORE expensive this edition.
Meganobz: nope. 25pts +25pts for PK +4pts for a Kustom Shoota (required) and that 40pt model that was only acceptable in a Bully Boyz formation last edition just went up in price 14pts per model and became LESS effective at what they do.
Mek Gunz: T7 3+ Save just became T5 5+ Save. All the weapons with the exception of the BubbleChucka just became less effective and the cost? yup it went up even as the durability and effectiveness of the gun went down.
Morkanaut: Its shooting got worse, its cost went up and its durability barely increased with the wounds change. 374pts for a slow walker whose purpose is to provide a KFF bubble while laying down ineffective firepower from its over priced and underpowered weapons.
Painboy: You will only ever take 1 of these in the game and for like 9pts more you can take Grotsnik who is better across the board and comes with a 5+ FNP and good armor. If this thing still provided 5+ FNP it would be a useful thing to take, as it stands its just a tool to keep weirdboyz alive a bit longer and to act as a delivery system for its Klaw.
Painboy on Warbiker; WTF? Giving it a bike somehow raises its cost by 125%? Painboy = 40 Painboy on Bike = 90pts (Both add +25 for the PKs they are required to take.)
Skorchas: Same problem as the Buggy and Wartrak: to expensive, no dakka, useless in CC. I was holding out hope for these but now that Ive seen the other factions it would be useless to take these.
Stompa: 900+pts for a less effective Stompa that is actually LESS durable versus everything except Melta/Grav spam. All of its ranged weapons are crap except for maybe the Supa Gatler, but even that isn't good and if you use its ability will give you 4D6 shots which average 5 total hits, and doing so gives you a 1/6 chance to ruin the only useful gun you have on the damned thing. If it gets to CC its ok there, somehow it doesn't have stomp.....let that sink in.....the Stompa doesn't have Stomp. and gets 4 attacks with the Klaws full version or 12 attacks at a less version. If you cut the cost of this thing in half it would still be a questionable thing to take. It requires a Big Mek with a KFF to spend the entire game inside of it to even have a chance, and you can no longer pack units of Mekz inside to try and keep it alive.
Trukk: its half the price of a battlewagon, can carry half as many passengers, has significantly less durability and is significantly worse in CC then the battlewagon. Basically its sole purpose it so transport Tank Bustas around since Trukk Boyz aren't as good as they used to be due to the loss of attacks and the nerf the Power Klaw got.
Warbikers: 50% increase in cost, marginal upgrade to dakka and LOSS of durability with jink going away even with 2 wounds they aren't as durable. The best bet for these things is to use them as mobile dakka and park them in cover for the entire game because if they are out in the open they are going to die and at 27pts per model, they aren't a cheap investment anymore.
So I know thats a big list but realistically that is the list of units that are crap or useless right now in the Ork Codex. Some are slightly usable like the Trukk or Big Gunz but only because we don't have a valid alternative unit that does a similar job better. BUT out of everything in the Ork Codex I personally think the most USELESS unit is going to be Stompa for the above reasons. Every Ork unit is over priced, but the Stompa takes the cake. In 7th it cost 770pts and was considered to be about 300pts over priced, in 8th it lost dakka and went up in price 200pts. The things is a big $110 pile of crap.
Basically whomever wrote the Ork codex believes that Orkz shouldn't have synergy in anything except boyz. And even then the only good synergy is a Weirdboy giving them +1 to attack or deep striking them, teamed with Ghaz giving them +1 attack on the charge and maybe the Mech giving them a 5++ Bubble if they lump themselves together.
G00fySmiley wrote: a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights
PODS
What are you talking about? I assume you're talking about Drop Pods, and they seem, to me, pretty decent.
Well I disagree the 9" rule and the point cost. Why take pods when you get razorback spam. Pods being Nerfed shelved my whole army.
it's okay to disagree
I would disagree on drop pods, I own several and have a decent sized space marine army (over 100 terminators... I like the model fun to paint and play with shades) pods are now situational but have a place still. you are generally better off with a razorback, but dropping a devastator squad in with multimeltas is going to wreck something and be a huge fire magnet the next turn. drop the pod in. throw the podnext to terrain they get in for that 2+ save and are in melta range. attach a power armored captain for rerolls and a lose combat monster if desired. sternguard also work well in a pod combi meltas and you get the bolter shots and the melta shots. assault marines drop in, combat squad so 2 units get out and again 10 models that cannot be ignored and might even get off a first turn charge. now I would say you should only run 1-2 drop pod units now but they can be quite good (full drop pod though is indeed dead)
Battlewagon, its a 161pt transport whose only useful upgrade is a Deff rolla which is finally decent again after 3 years. (OHh and the Ard Top which gives it T8 which it should have already had, hold over for Open topped is my guess, can't make ork stuff better then imperium)
Big Gunz: 8pt model sweet! Ohh, you have to buy the gun, and the krew....So that 8pt Kannon (worth it) just became a 27pt Kannon with 3 wounds and a 5+ save and no access to rerolls
Blitza BOmmer: 134pts or a bommer that once it drops its 2 bombs is useless. You are better off taking Deff Koptas.
Burna Boyz: 14pts for a Boy with a 8in Flamer that does D3 instead of D6.....yeah the -2 AP in melee is nice but won't statistically do much for you.
Burna-Bommer: Like the Blitza but even crappier.
Dakkajet: 148pts for 18 S6 -1 AP shots at BS3 (4+ to hit and only if ALL weapons target the same unit). Against Tac Marines this will do 3 casualties. So it needs to stay alive for 5 turns in order to make back its points doing this. Of course if those Marines are in cover those 3 casualties becomes 2 and then its even longer before it makes its points back.
Deff Dreadz: They exist solely to be target practice for opposing armies. 114pts for a Deff Dread armed with Dread klaws only that give it a grand total of 6 attacks at WS3 not even WS2. And just to really add insult to injury it only moves 6in. To add insult to injury a regular SM Dreadnought is 19pts more expensive and comes standard with 2 less attacks at the same WS and with even more strength (12 to our 10) It also comes stock with an assault cannon which pushes out insane levels of dakka this edition and a Stormbolter So at max range its pushing out 6 S6 shots with -1 AP and 2 S4 shots. Yet again, we can't have nicer things then the imperium.
Flash Gitz: Same problems as last edition, 27pts for a 6+ armor save, and if you put them in a Wagon to protect your investment then you are losing out on all buffs and rerolls, not to mention creating a 300-450pts unit that is barely effective at shooting because of range and restrictions (If it moves those super expensive 4+ to hit gunz become 5+)
Gretchin: 3pts for a terrible model that will run away at first chance because they don't have mob rule and have LD4, you are required to take a Runtherd with them so tack on a 26pt Boy model with 3 attacks instead of 2 who gets to kill D3 grots to make them pass morale. They are literally useless for EVERYTHING except as chaff.
Killa Kanz: Still a bad investment in this game. The only weapon worth taking on a Kan these days is the Rokkit which went up in price 140% The Grotzooka was OK because it was a cheap Heavy 2 Blast weapon but with the rule change ALL Ork blast weapons are basically useless. They are still slow, they somehow got even MORE expensive this edition.
Meganobz: nope. 25pts +25pts for PK +4pts for a Kustom Shoota (required) and that 40pt model that was only acceptable in a Bully Boyz formation last edition just went up in price 14pts per model and became LESS effective at what they do.
Mek Gunz: T7 3+ Save just became T5 5+ Save. All the weapons with the exception of the BubbleChucka just became less effective and the cost? yup it went up even as the durability and effectiveness of the gun went down.
Morkanaut: Its shooting got worse, its cost went up and its durability barely increased with the wounds change. 374pts for a slow walker whose purpose is to provide a KFF bubble while laying down ineffective firepower from its over priced and underpowered weapons.
Painboy: You will only ever take 1 of these in the game and for like 9pts more you can take Grotsnik who is better across the board and comes with a 5+ FNP and good armor. If this thing still provided 5+ FNP it would be a useful thing to take, as it stands its just a tool to keep weirdboyz alive a bit longer and to act as a delivery system for its Klaw.
Painboy on Warbiker; WTF? Giving it a bike somehow raises its cost by 125%? Painboy = 40 Painboy on Bike = 90pts (Both add +25 for the PKs they are required to take.)
Skorchas: Same problem as the Buggy and Wartrak: to expensive, no dakka, useless in CC. I was holding out hope for these but now that Ive seen the other factions it would be useless to take these.
Stompa: 900+pts for a less effective Stompa that is actually LESS durable versus everything except Melta/Grav spam. All of its ranged weapons are crap except for maybe the Supa Gatler, but even that isn't good and if you use its ability will give you 4D6 shots which average 5 total hits, and doing so gives you a 1/6 chance to ruin the only useful gun you have on the damned thing. If it gets to CC its ok there, somehow it doesn't have stomp.....let that sink in.....the Stompa doesn't have Stomp. and gets 4 attacks with the Klaws full version or 12 attacks at a less version. If you cut the cost of this thing in half it would still be a questionable thing to take. It requires a Big Mek with a KFF to spend the entire game inside of it to even have a chance, and you can no longer pack units of Mekz inside to try and keep it alive.
Trukk: its half the price of a battlewagon, can carry half as many passengers, has significantly less durability and is significantly worse in CC then the battlewagon. Basically its sole purpose it so transport Tank Bustas around since Trukk Boyz aren't as good as they used to be due to the loss of attacks and the nerf the Power Klaw got.
Warbikers: 50% increase in cost, marginal upgrade to dakka and LOSS of durability with jink going away even with 2 wounds they aren't as durable. The best bet for these things is to use them as mobile dakka and park them in cover for the entire game because if they are out in the open they are going to die and at 27pts per model, they aren't a cheap investment anymore.
You should have just said what was good in the Ork list
Ratius wrote:
You should have just said what was good in the Ork list
I think he did.
SemperMortis wrote:boyz
Pretty much. The Ork army is reduced to Boyz, everything else is secondary and just there to distract until boyz get up the field OR to buff the boyz to last longer.
Ratius wrote:
You should have just said what was good in the Ork list
I think he did.
SemperMortis wrote:boyz
Pretty much. The Ork army is reduced to Boyz, everything else is secondary and just there to distract until boyz get up the field OR to buff the boyz to last longer.
When I've played against Orks I laughed at the Boy hordes (they did little to no damage to my army and always died with ease), the Ork units I actually thought were scary were Morkanaughts, KillaKans and MegaNobz: these were the only things that could reliably survive my charges and then hit back hard.
Ratius wrote:
You should have just said what was good in the Ork list
I think he did.
SemperMortis wrote:boyz
Pretty much. The Ork army is reduced to Boyz, everything else is secondary and just there to distract until boyz get up the field OR to buff the boyz to last longer.
When I've played against Orks I laughed at the Boy hordes (they did little to no damage to my army and always died with ease), the Ork units I actually thought were scary were Morkanaughts, KillaKans and MegaNobz: these were the only things that could reliably survive my charges and then hit back hard.
Morkanaut is universally thought of as the 2nd worst walker in the game, right behind the Stompa. Killa Kanz are fun but ultimately useless, they are too expensive and don't have enough dakka. In CC they have S8 attacks BUT they hit on 5s. Meganobz are not scary at all these days. 3 attacks with a Powerklaw that hit on 4s.
SemperMortis wrote: Morkanaut is universally thought of as the 2nd worst walker in the game, right behind the Stompa. Killa Kanz are fun but ultimately useless, they are too expensive and don't have enough dakka. In CC they have S8 attacks BUT they hit on 5s. Meganobz are not scary at all these days. 3 attacks with a Powerklaw that hit on 4s.
Who thinks they are the second worst? Sure they aren't the best but, around here at least, Morkanaughts are universely seen as good and 10 times better than they ever were. KillKans and Meganobz hurt like hell when they swing first and their large number of attacks make up for bad WS. Also, the one time I did manage to wipe a KillaKan unit on the charge (charged an 8 Kan unit with 4 Berzerker units, a Terminator unit and a Terminator Lord) my opponent rolled 3 6s for exploding which hurt me very much since I surrounded him (killed 12 Zerkers, 2 Terminators and dropped the Lord to 2 wounds).
On paper they don't look great but the local Ork players are reporting that they are pretty great, for Ork units.
SemperMortis wrote: Morkanaut is universally thought of as the 2nd worst walker in the game, right behind the Stompa. Killa Kanz are fun but ultimately useless, they are too expensive and don't have enough dakka. In CC they have S8 attacks BUT they hit on 5s. Meganobz are not scary at all these days. 3 attacks with a Powerklaw that hit on 4s.
Who thinks they are the second worst? Sure they aren't the best but, around here at least, Morkanaughts are universely seen as good and 10 times better than they ever were. KillKans and Meganobz hurt like hell when they swing first and their large number of attacks make up for bad WS. Also, the one time I did manage to wipe a KillaKan unit on the charge (charged an 8 Kan unit with 4 Berzerker units, a Terminator unit and a Terminator Lord) my opponent rolled 3 6s for exploding which hurt me very much since I surrounded him (killed 12 Zerkers, 2 Terminators and dropped the Lord to 2 wounds).
On paper they don't look great but the local Ork players are reporting that they are pretty great, for Ork units.
High number of attacks? 3 each is considered High? at WS2 those Killa kanz with 3 attacks each are hitting 1 time each. So a unit of 6 will get 24 attacks (+1 for 4+ models) and hit 8 times and wound about 7 times. Against a 3+ model thats 6 casualties.
Meganobz? A unit of 4 gets 12 attacks, 6 hits and against T4 thats 5 wounds, against 3+ model you will get 1 save so 4 dead Marines. 4 berserker units (min squad of 5 with chainaxes) = 20 models, 4 of them have 3 attacks each 16 have 2 attacks each. On the charge that is 44 attacks, 30 hits and at S6 thats 20 wounds at -1 AP against 3+ save that is 10 wounds which kills outright 2 Kanz. So that unit of 6 just became a unit of 4. I don't know how the mechanic works for zerkers so I don't know if they get to swing again, but if they do the unit of Kanz just became 2. If they dont. those 4 kanz put out 16 attacks about 5 hits about 4 wounds and about 3 casualties. Not exactly intimidating. Either your Ork player cheated or he got seriously lucky rolls and you had seriously bad rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh, and the Morkanaut isn't any better then before. The only aspects that got better was the TL Big Shootas it had and it is slightly more durable then it was before...and even that is questionable. It's main weapon is now all but useless and the new rules stipulate that it will lose MORE wounds to its own weaponry then before (KMK and KMB)
To the Horror thing, clearly people have not played with pink horrors. They are severely over-costed at 10 points. They die really quick and have very little offensive capability, and no assault capability. Personally I think "split" is the worst rule ever created, it was in the early edition of WHFB it was in 7th and it is in 8th. Also, adding brimstones as a unit was such an obvious cash grab creating a totally unnecessary unit. I don't want "split" to be added into the cost, because I never ever want to use it or brimstones. Personally I think they should go back to the 6th edition codex and have a unit of "horrors" which can be pink, blue, brim, or mix with the same stats and cost, which should be cheaper and no stupid split rule.
Also, I agree with a previous poster that Screamers are not very good, as they are overpriced. You can get three for 91 points. Or you can get a Burning Chariot for 98 points which has attacks for two of the screamers, plus attacks for the exulted flamer, plus the shooting attack. It is a no brainer.
other than above as a thousand son'/Tzeentch daemon player I am pretty happy with things so far. The Tzeentch powers are lack luster and no school for Tson's is frustrating but will probably be fixed with codex. I still think that the Rubic/Scrabb sorcerer is over costed. Basically every unit in the game gets their champ for free yet we pay an additional 12/19 points for ours and all we gain is baby smite. If these guys were full sorcerers and could cast real smite and/or a normal spell they would be worth more, but as is baby smite is not worth that many more points. Maybe like 3/5 considering the real risk if there is a perils which kills a good number of the squad.
SemperMortis wrote: High number of attacks? 3 each is considered High? at WS2 those Killa kanz with 3 attacks each are hitting 1 time each. So a unit of 6 will get 24 attacks (+1 for 4+ models) and hit 8 times and wound about 7 times. Against a 3+ model thats 6 casualties.
Meganobz? A unit of 4 gets 12 attacks, 6 hits and against T4 thats 5 wounds, against 3+ model you will get 1 save so 4 dead Marines. 4 berserker units (min squad of 5 with chainaxes) = 20 models, 4 of them have 3 attacks each 16 have 2 attacks each. On the charge that is 44 attacks, 30 hits and at S6 thats 20 wounds at -1 AP against 3+ save that is 10 wounds which kills outright 2 Kanz. So that unit of 6 just became a unit of 4. I don't know how the mechanic works for zerkers so I don't know if they get to swing again, but if they do the unit of Kanz just became 2. If they dont. those 4 kanz put out 16 attacks about 5 hits about 4 wounds and about 3 casualties. Not exactly intimidating. Either your Ork player cheated or he got seriously lucky rolls and you had seriously bad rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh, and the Morkanaut isn't any better then before. The only aspects that got better was the TL Big Shootas it had and it is slightly more durable then it was before...and even that is questionable. It's main weapon is now all but useless and the new rules stipulate that it will lose MORE wounds to its own weaponry then before (KMK and KMB)
Here's my experience of them so far:
KillaKans have killed my terminator Lord + Terminators as soon as they dropped out of the sky.
MegaNobz murdered Kharn, a DP and some Berzerkers.
One game (the only game I've lost so far) the Morkanaught managed to take out a BloodThirster, a Khorne Daemon Prince, 2 Chaos Lords, 3 units of Zerkers and a Rhino. That thing literally one man armied everything I had. I do admit it's shooting doesn't hit too hard but it's cc ability! Oh my!
On the other side of things, Ork Boyz so far (in the 3 games I've played against Orks which were all 2000pt games) managed to kill a Heldrake and a Rhino. That's it across all 3 games.
Maybe I'm having a different experience than everyone else when it comes to Orks.
SemperMortis wrote: In Alphabetical order Gretchin: 3pts for a terrible model that will run away at first chance because they don't have mob rule and have LD4, you are required to take a Runtherd with them
No you're not. You'll need one if you want morale immunity, but it's not a requirement anymore.
Morkanaught is not bad - it's just outshined by both the gorkanaught and the meka dread. Cause if you're playing ork walker list, you're шерук taking kff meks or kff meka dreads anywayz. And Gorka has 2 more attacks and shooting that doesn't hurt it more reliably than it hurts the opponent. Which is a plus. So, while not inherently bad, morkanaughts are pointless cause there are 2 other similar options that do it's job better.
As for the kanz, they really need a banner nob nearby. Cause their shooting is bad for points and their mellee is either not great for points if you calculate it. Interestingly enough, the equivalent point cost of choppa boyz does more damage to even toughest vehicles than a killa kan in mellee. And the kan'z durability also not amazing. They also suffer from morale.
So, yes, boyz are definitely not tough. But they're one of the choppiest and more universally effective things in our codex. They outpunch a lot of stuff point-for-point. Killsaw meganobz are only more killy than choppaboyz vs t8+ vehicles and even so, not by that much. In return, meganobz get wrecked by heavy weapons and cost a ton of points. So are kanz (they cost ~ the same). While boyz can counter a lot of lists that are focused on killing vehicles and monsters. At the same time, meganobz and kanz are only around twice as durable as regular boyz vs small arms fire.
Boyz aren't AMAZING. But they're the best we've got.
There was a time not long ago when this thread would be packed with nid units.
I am so happy I can't think of anything actually bad for nids.
I guess the tyrannofex just doesn't have the range on the guns you really want to be using his standing still bonus on so he never gets to actually stand still. Just take exocrines.
Lance845 wrote: There was a time not long ago when this thread would be packed with nid units.
I am so happy I can't think of anything actually bad for nids.
I guess the tyrannofex just doesn't have the range on the guns you really want to be using his standing still bonus on so he never gets to actually stand still. Just take exocrines.
The Big Brain dude seems to underperform from what I see, but most nid units tend towards "Slightly worse then Y unit in codex"
When compared with the wave serpent I can see no reason to take them. The serpent carries more guys, is far more durable and is a lot cheaper. I guess it has slightly less dakka than a falcon, but that does not come close to compensating for the other points.
** which is unfortunate, as falcons are my favorite elder tank!
Sadly, this has been true for a while now. The pulse laser is a nice gun, but a falcon doesn’t bring anything to the table that a 2xbrightlance WS doesn’t. With being able to shoot all you guns at different targets, the fact that it can have a flexible loadout is a little more viable, but not worth the serious markup it has over the serpent.
It’s not like it’s a bad tank, just overshadowed (again) by the WS. As for if it’s overpriced, or the WS is underpriced, I’m not sure. That requires more of a big picture view then I have right now.
And I’m with you on the favorite tank bit. The WD introducing it is the first one in my collection, and they are the reason I started Eldar.
I picked up 2 Falcon recently, and I will use them. They are certainly worse now with the starcannon super nerf. SO back to possibly adding a brightlance as the secondary weapon, but then it's only 1 shot more than a wave serpent. Shame.
Similar points same gun, slightly better infiltrate -1 to hit against but -1 T making them significantly weaker against normal shooting and -1 armor sticking harder.
dunno if it means scouts are too good or if rangers are bad. only time will tell.
It's severely overpriced. More expensive than a monolith, with none of the awesome powers of the Tesseract Vault unless your opponent is fielding multiple flyers.
Never depend on your opponent to do something specific in order to be effective. It's a very, very basic rule and if you violate it you're stupid.
Tervigon's. Nothing new, overpriced junk for three editions running now. However, they fixed the Swarmlord and further nerfed the Tervigon this edition, bumping him up a place on the ladder of "most expensive ways to waste points" in the dex.
It's expensive, shoots at a random time, does a random number of hits (that doesn't nearly justify it's cost) that only hits on 4+, and then randomly hits nearby units for a random number of hits.
And it does all of this once per game.
It's so bad I wonder how it got past playtesting in it's current state.
Chimeras. At their present cost, why would anyone ever field one? Its getting -1BS whenever it moves, lost its rear firing port & amphibious rule. With the update to move, move move order your infantry can move nearly as far as if they were in a transport. Transporting Ogryn? Again, why would you ever need a chimera? Unless you are fighting a Tau gunline, your opponent is going to be rushing you. You need those Ogryn/Bullgryn next to your men to counter assault.
Chimeras in 8th edition are overpriced garbage. Its being specifically done to sell the Taurox models that no one wants.
SHUPPET wrote: Tervigon's. Nothing new, overpriced junk for three editions running now. However, they fixed the Swarmlord and further nerfed the Tervigon this edition, bumping him up a place on the ladder of "most expensive ways to waste points" in the dex.
Complete nonsense. 2 tervigons and 3 30 blobs of termagants (10 devourers 20 flesh borers each). That's 150 shots rerolling 1s to hit and to wound with psychic support that can recover up to 20 models a turn. Also 28 wounds of tervigons to try to displace. This costs
980 points.
Commissar Benny wrote: Chimeras. At their present cost, why would anyone ever field one? Its getting -1BS whenever it moves, lost its rear firing port & amphibious rule. With the update to move, move move order your infantry can move nearly as far as if they were in a transport. Transporting Ogryn? Again, why would you ever need a chimera? Unless you are fighting a Tau gunline, your opponent is going to be rushing you. You need those Ogryn/Bullgryn next to your men to counter assault.
Chimeras in 8th edition are overpriced garbage. Its being specifically done to sell the Taurox models that no one wants.
There's 8 points of difference between a Chimera and a Taurox....
Chimera gains +1 T and +2 transport capacity and a las gun array. Want more resilience vs S6-7 weapons? Take the chimera. Want an extra buff character for the infantry/veteran squads? Take a chimera. Do you play against a fast melee heavy meta and wish for better over watch options because acces to flamers? Take a chimera
The good thing about the buff of the Taurox is that now there's an actual reason to take them and they have different roles that justifies their inclusion on their own merits. It's a matter of choice and how you built your list, rather than being a no brainer with the chimera. "Overpriced garbage" though? Not even close.
Also let's not pretend the amphibious rule was actually a thing. That rule was literally a meme for being the most useless rule in the game. The strike down rule had more relevance than the amphibious ever had.
Commissar Benny wrote: Chimeras. At their present cost, why would anyone ever field one? Its getting -1BS whenever it moves, lost its rear firing port & amphibious rule. With the update to move, move move order your infantry can move nearly as far as if they were in a transport. Transporting Ogryn? Again, why would you ever need a chimera? Unless you are fighting a Tau gunline, your opponent is going to be rushing you. You need those Ogryn/Bullgryn next to your men to counter assault.
Chimeras in 8th edition are overpriced garbage. Its being specifically done to sell the Taurox models that no one wants.
There's 8 points of difference between a Chimera and a Taurox....
Chimera gains +1 T and +2 transport capacity and a las gun array. Want more resilience vs S6-7 weapons? Take the chimera. Want an extra buff character for the infantry/veteran squads? Take a chimera. Do you play against a fast melee heavy meta and wish for better over watch options because acces to flamers? Take a chimera
The good thing about the buff of the Taurox is that now there's an actual reason to take them and they have different roles that justifies their inclusion on their own merits. It's a matter of choice and how you built your list, rather than being a no brainer with the chimera. "Overpriced garbage" though? Not even close.
Also let's not pretend the amphibious rule was actually a thing. That rule was literally a meme for being the most useless rule in the game. The strike down rule had more relevance than the amphibious ever had.
I wish it kept that rule, just for the meme. But I have literally never seen it used.
SHUPPET wrote: Tervigon's. Nothing new, overpriced junk for three editions running now. However, they fixed the Swarmlord and further nerfed the Tervigon this edition, bumping him up a place on the ladder of "most expensive ways to waste points" in the dex.
Complete nonsense. 2 tervigons and 3 30 blobs of termagants (10 devourers 20 flesh borers each). That's 150 shots rerolling 1s to hit and to wound with psychic support that can recover up to 20 models a turn. Also 28 wounds of tervigons to try to displace. This costs
980 points.
Crazy good core for an army.
Good fething luck everybody else.
Overcharging plasma Plask with las cannon 1 shots a tervigon. The 3 basilisks takes the other. Mortar teams and Wyverns takes sporadic shots at the gribblies. Watch the rest die to battleshock.
Commissar Benny wrote: Chimeras. At their present cost, why would anyone ever field one? Its getting -1BS whenever it moves, lost its rear firing port & amphibious rule. With the update to move, move move order your infantry can move nearly as far as if they were in a transport. Transporting Ogryn? Again, why would you ever need a chimera? Unless you are fighting a Tau gunline, your opponent is going to be rushing you. You need those Ogryn/Bullgryn next to your men to counter assault.
Chimeras in 8th edition are overpriced garbage. Its being specifically done to sell the Taurox models that no one wants.
There's 8 points of difference between a Chimera and a Taurox....
Chimera gains +1 T and +2 transport capacity and a las gun array. Want more resilience vs S6-7 weapons? Take the chimera. Want an extra buff character for the infantry/veteran squads? Take a chimera. Do you play against a fast melee heavy meta and wish for better over watch options because acces to flamers? Take a chimera
The good thing about the buff of the Taurox is that now there's an actual reason to take them and they have different roles that justifies their inclusion on their own merits. It's a matter of choice and how you built your list, rather than being a no brainer with the chimera. "Overpriced garbage" though? Not even close.
Also let's not pretend the amphibious rule was actually a thing. That rule was literally a meme for being the most useless rule in the game. The strike down rule had more relevance than the amphibious ever had.
I just can't see myself ever using a chimera this edition. Even though I have 4 of them. They do not fulfill any detachment requirements. In an edition where command points mean everything. Its just throwing points away. Move, move, move grants all the mobility you need for infantry. If you need linebreaker or to flank your opponent you can use stormtroopers/rough riders. Hellhounds are comparable in price to a chimera, are just as durable, fulfill a fast attack slot, and have incredible damage output. I agree the amphibious rule was rarely if ever used, but the loss of the rear firing port was a huge blow. Even with their increased durability Chimeras got slammed this edition.
SHUPPET wrote: Tervigon's. Nothing new, overpriced junk for three editions running now. However, they fixed the Swarmlord and further nerfed the Tervigon this edition, bumping him up a place on the ladder of "most expensive ways to waste points" in the dex.
Complete nonsense. 2 tervigons and 3 30 blobs of termagants (10 devourers 20 flesh borers each). That's 150 shots rerolling 1s to hit and to wound with psychic support that can recover up to 20 models a turn. Also 28 wounds of tervigons to try to displace. This costs
980 points.
Crazy good core for an army.
Good fething luck everybody else.
Swarmlord and 3 maxed out squads of Genestealers, or two Tervigons and some Termagants. DIFFICULT CHOICE.
Seriously, 980 points is half your army. You have 500 points of Tervigon doing borderline nothing offensively, just making back 80 points of its cost every turn, ASSUMING your opponent decides to target the Termagants first. And it's not even bringing back the useful Termagants, its bringing back the body shield ones.
You can seriously get like 10 Carnifexes for that price. Tervigon is ridiculously overcosted.
Melissia wrote: The riptide may not be as broke-as-feth as it was, but I still think it's pretty powerful.
It's literally the worst unit in the game for the cost now. bs4+ which hit's on 5's if it moves? Have 1 decent gun and a secondary weapon system for around 400 points? For this cost you can get some absurdly good stuff...Why wouldn't you take longstrike and a hammerhead in it's place and be twice as survivable do and twice the damage - whilst being mobile?
SHUPPET wrote: Tervigon's. Nothing new, overpriced junk for three editions running now. However, they fixed the Swarmlord and further nerfed the Tervigon this edition, bumping him up a place on the ladder of "most expensive ways to waste points" in the dex.
Complete nonsense. 2 tervigons and 3 30 blobs of termagants (10 devourers 20 flesh borers each). That's 150 shots rerolling 1s to hit and to wound with psychic support that can recover up to 20 models a turn. Also 28 wounds of tervigons to try to displace. This costs
980 points.
Crazy good core for an army.
Good fething luck everybody else.
Swarmlord and 3 maxed out squads of Genestealers, or two Tervigons and some Termagants. DIFFICULT CHOICE.
Seriously, 980 points is half your army. You have 500 points of Tervigon doing borderline nothing offensively, just making back 80 points of its cost every turn, ASSUMING your opponent decides to target the Termagants first. And it's not even bringing back the useful Termagants, its bringing back the body shield ones.
You can seriously get like 10 Carnifexes for that price. Tervigon is ridiculously overcosted.
Tervigon is absolute trash. I concur. Why the heck wouldn't I just bring 63 gaunt for her price?
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
Deep strike them with Combi-weapons and a Lord/Captain for re-rolls. They are a 2+/5++ unit with 2 wounds each that can drop directly in front of the enemy turn 1 (or wait a few turns and surprise attack an enemy unit going for an objective), they are extremely dangerous and your opponant will have to dedicate most of their firepower to wiping the unit and the Lord/Captain if they don't want to get their shooty units bogged down in combat for a turn. What's wrong with that?
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
Deep strike them with Combi-weapons and a Lord/Captain for re-rolls. They are a 2+/5++ unit with 2 wounds each that can drop directly in front of the enemy turn 1 (or wait a few turns and surprise attack an enemy unit going for an objective), they are extremely dangerous and your opponant will have to dedicate most of their firepower to wiping the unit and the Lord/Captain if they don't want to get their shooty units bogged down in combat for a turn. What's wrong with that?
he did say their point cost, which can quickly turn anything from useable to useless no matter what they are equipped with
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
Deep strike them with Combi-weapons and a Lord/Captain for re-rolls. They are a 2+/5++ unit with 2 wounds each that can drop directly in front of the enemy turn 1 (or wait a few turns and surprise attack an enemy unit going for an objective), they are extremely dangerous and your opponant will have to dedicate most of their firepower to wiping the unit and the Lord/Captain if they don't want to get their shooty units bogged down in combat for a turn. What's wrong with that?
he did say their point cost, which can quickly turn anything from useable to useless no matter what they are equipped with
Aye, but 300-400pts to effectively shut down any fire upon the rest of your army turn 1 + the damage they're going to do with their combi-plasmas/meltas/bolters to your opponants army + if they get the charge off they have completely shut down one or more enemy, units not for one turn but, for two turns since they have to back out of combat and wait. From the games I've played with them so far I think they're worth it (6W 1D 1L using Terminator alpha strike so far).
Pick something that isn't. New results in for a big ETC tournament the Caledonian. Tau got stomped and tabled (not an uncommon event) the flyer spam that won the first tournament in NA took the first European tournament too.
Tau placed even worse in this tournament and it was a larger sample size than the last. I wish I could get their lists, but I recall drones being worked around/killed around without too much problems. If that is being circumvented so easily our best unit int he codex has failed us and we need a complete rework.
Gamgee wrote: Pick something that isn't. New results in for a big ETC tournament the Caledonian. Tau got stomped and tabled (not an uncommon event) the flyer spam that won the first tournament in NA took the first European tournament too.
Tau placed even worse in this tournament and it was a larger sample size than the last. I wish I could get their lists, but I recall drones being worked around/killed around without too much problems. If that is being circumvented so easily our best unit int he codex has failed us and we need a complete rework.
Tau rebalance when?
Tau not winning tournaments
SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THE GAME
Give it more than a week or two buddy, we will see where it stands in time
Gamgee wrote: Pick something that isn't. New results in for a big ETC tournament the Caledonian. Tau got stomped and tabled (not an uncommon event) the flyer spam that won the first tournament in NA took the first European tournament too.
Tau placed even worse in this tournament and it was a larger sample size than the last. I wish I could get their lists, but I recall drones being worked around/killed around without too much problems. If that is being circumvented so easily our best unit int he codex has failed us and we need a complete rework.
Tau rebalance when?
As the Shuppet said, give it a while. Tau are doing overwhelmingly bad at the moment (worse than Orks) which suggests to me that they've taken the nerf hammer a bit too hard but with these results that can't just be it. Tau will find their niche eventually. If we're still having this conversation in a few weeks then, if I were you, I'd hope to god that the Tau codex brings something to the table.
Gamgee wrote: Pick something that isn't. New results in for a big ETC tournament the Caledonian. Tau got stomped and tabled (not an uncommon event) the flyer spam that won the first tournament in NA took the first European tournament too.
Tau placed even worse in this tournament and it was a larger sample size than the last. I wish I could get their lists, but I recall drones being worked around/killed around without too much problems. If that is being circumvented so easily our best unit int he codex has failed us and we need a complete rework.
Tau rebalance when?
As the Shuppet said, give it a while. Tau are doing overwhelmingly bad at the moment (worse than Orks) which suggests to me that they've taken the nerf hammer a bit too hard but with these results that can't just be it. Tau will find their niche eventually. If we're still having this conversation in a few weeks then, if I were you, I'd hope to god that the Tau codex brings something to the table.
For the record some of the ETC players have a more forward thinking attitude and are already saying playing against Tau is a waste of time in tournaments since they can't win.
In my local meta no Tau wins yet for any of the Tau players of numerous games. Actually most of the Tau players are hanging up their armies now. "A bit too hard" is a massive understatement. I dare say the current Tau index is one of the worst codices put out by GW ever. Even at the heights of crappy chaos space marine they had lists that could win in casual formats and we're not even seeing that for Tau.
An Ork player took second place at the big tournament I'm talking about. No one is very sure of what his list was though so I can't say.
For Tau, I think the decision to give them (nearly) across-the-board BS 4+ is the mistake: it's based on previous editions' Markerlight mechanics where getting BS 5 or better (BS 2+ with rerolls) was trivial, whereas now it takes 5 hits to get a +1 (though, granted, multiple attacking units will get the +1). Give all Shas'ui and Shas'vre units (Stealth, Crisis, Ghostkeel, Broadside, Riptide, Stormsurge, plus Fire Warrior and Pathfinder squad leaders) BS 3+. Shas'o-tier guys already get BS 2+. Or maybe give BS 3+ only to Shas'vres, but modify one of the suit wargear items to let all suits in the same squad use the bearer's BS if firing at the same target as the bearer, so you could take that on your Shas'vre and all your Shas'uis would hit on a 3+ if shooting the same target as the 'vre.
As far as useless units, the Riptide really got hit hard and Breachers have a pretty marginal role (displaced by, of all things, Vespids, so I can't say I'm mad, since I actually want Vespids for the first time in, oh, ever). However, the big loser would be the humble Shield Drone, with the change to how Savior Protocols works. Drop the 4++ and replace it with an always-on 5+ FNP-equivalent and we've got something interesting.
Gamgee wrote: For the record some of the ETC players have a more forward thinking attitude and are already saying playing against Tau is a waste of time in tournaments since they can't win.
In my local meta no Tau wins yet for any of the Tau players of numerous games. Actually most of the Tau players are hanging up their armies now. "A bit too hard" is a massive understatement. I dare say the current Tau index is one of the worst codices put out by GW ever. Even at the heights of crappy chaos space marine they had lists that could win in casual formats and we're not even seeing that for Tau.
An Ork player took second place at the big tournament I'm talking about. No one is very sure of what his list was though so I can't say.
Perhaps. Perhaps my view of Tau is scewed, at time of writing I've only seen one Tau game: Tau Vs DE, the Tau player won which was surprising as reports suggested the DE player should have run away with it (they were both veteran players). Hopefully, if you let GW know how bad Tau are now, by the time the Tau codex is released they'll have some new buffs, gear, rules, etc.
I'm not saying Tau can't win, but the odds are stacked extremely heavily against them. The player base could be very low skill or uber casual or bad units we have no way to know, but overall at a glance the picture is grim.
Gamgee wrote: I'm not saying Tau can't win, but the odds are stacked extremely heavily against them. The player base could be very low skill or uber casual or bad units we have no way to know, but overall at a glance the picture is grim.
Ether that or your tau meta is full of people that invested HEAVILY into what was hot in the last edition and are clinging to that play style.
or not i dont know.
what kinda lists are they running and against what that is causing them to get rekted.
From the sounds of the new tournament results I spoke of they brought an 8th edition geared list.
Edit
My Tau meta? They are trying my suggestions to use more drones and things like Vespids ect but I suspect they aren't meeting too much success or else they would have been all happy about the tips I gave them.
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
Deep strike them with Combi-weapons and a Lord/Captain for re-rolls. They are a 2+/5++ unit with 2 wounds each that can drop directly in front of the enemy turn 1 (or wait a few turns and surprise attack an enemy unit going for an objective), they are extremely dangerous and your opponant will have to dedicate most of their firepower to wiping the unit and the Lord/Captain if they don't want to get their shooty units bogged down in combat for a turn. What's wrong with that?
Well most terminators cannot take Combi-weapons. So your argument limits you to Space Wolfs and Chaos.
Unless your army is very fast your basically leaving 700 points in the enemy deployment zone.
Every time I've dropped ten terminators in I'm left with two or three by my next turn. It just seems like the Stormlord or BaneBlade that I constantly face are way better than terminators.
Exalted sorcerors, Ahriman (they are our hqs and are useless when you have Magnus around. possessed. They *could have 3 attacks but even then they seem underwhelming.
Gamgee wrote: From the sounds of the new tournament results I spoke of they brought an 8th edition geared list.
Edit
My Tau meta? They are trying my suggestions to use more drones and things like Vespids ect but I suspect they aren't meeting too much success or else they would have been all happy about the tips I gave them.
yea, tau seem to be back where they were in 5th everything they have is over-costed no real winners. they can play objectives and win but barring some discounts in the codex they are going to be staying a bottom tier army without tournament wins for the foreseeable future. the riptide needed an increase but it suffered the same fat as the Wraithknight which is to say they overadjusted it
fwlr wrote: Exalted sorcerors, Ahriman (they are our hqs and are useless when you have Magnus around.
I thought TS players were saying Ahriman was pretty good? He's a fast moving psyker that can cast 3 spells with a +1 to cast, isn't too shabby in cc (for a sorceror) and, unlike Magnus, you can hide him from enemy fire.
possessed. They *could have 3 attacks but even then they seem underwhelming.
I agree with this completely, why they couldn't have made them slightly more expensive and given them d6 attacks I don't know.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Not to start a fight, but a Chaos Terminator with Power Sword and Combi-Plasma is 50pts. 10 of them, plus the mentioned Chaos Terminator Lord with Sword/Plasma, comes out to 641pts.
If you were to go a bit further with Icons or Reapers, 700pts seems like a fair estimate.
Going through the Blood Angels book, and I'm having a hard time justifying any melee infantry simply because a Company Veteran with Storm Bolter is so good. Between RF2 and his base A2, they put competitors to shame, and they can contribute from Turn1 without risking a 9" charge.
For them to come in only 1pt more than a naked Death Company seems scary.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Not to start a fight, but a Chaos Terminator with Power Sword and Combi-Plasma is 50pts. 10 of them, plus the mentioned Chaos Terminator Lord with Sword/Plasma, comes out to 641pts. If you were to go a bit further with Icons or Reapers, 700pts seems like a fair estimate.
Going through the Blood Angels book, and I'm having a hard time justifying any melee infantry simply because a Company Veteran with Storm Bolter is so good. Between RF2 and his base A2, they put competitors to shame, and they can contribute from Turn1 without risking a 9" charge. For them to come in only 1pt more than a naked Death Company seems scary.
Well most terminators cannot take Combi-weapons. So your argument limits you to Space Wolfs and Chaos.
Unless your army is very fast your basically leaving 700 points in the enemy deployment zone.
Every time I've dropped ten terminators in I'm left with two or three by my next turn. It just seems like the Stormlord or BaneBlade that I constantly face are way better than terminators.
first line implies that the subject was standard terminators as the following line excludes space wolves of chaos
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
Deep strike them with Combi-weapons and a Lord/Captain for re-rolls. They are a 2+/5++ unit with 2 wounds each that can drop directly in front of the enemy turn 1 (or wait a few turns and surprise attack an enemy unit going for an objective), they are extremely dangerous and your opponant will have to dedicate most of their firepower to wiping the unit and the Lord/Captain if they don't want to get their shooty units bogged down in combat for a turn. What's wrong with that?
Well most terminators cannot take Combi-weapons. So your argument limits you to Space Wolfs and Chaos.
Unless your army is very fast your basically leaving 700 points in the enemy deployment zone.
Every time I've dropped ten terminators in I'm left with two or three by my next turn. It just seems like the Stormlord or BaneBlade that I constantly face are way better than terminators.
Who said anything about 10 man Terminator units? I was talking 5 man units. As for fast? Well depends on your army: if you're shooty then you Terminators were sent in to bog down enemy units that are fast and are trying to rush forward to get into cc and if you're cc orientated I should hope you are fast, but even if you aren't the Terminators can hold up deadly shooty units while you move up.
Why are you sending Terminators after a Baneblade varient!? That isn't the Terminators fault, that's poor target priority!
Overcharging plasma Plask with las cannon 1 shots a tervigon. The 3 basilisks takes the other.
...or if you don't have magic dice, you'll cause 7-8 wounds to each one.
... or if you take Pask as warlord and give him warlord trait that reroll 1's. He will have 7-8 hits on average with plasma and wound 5-6 of those. He will save 1-2 and take 2 damage each. Already we have 8 damage. This is before las canon.
Go ahead and try, I regularly 1 shot vehicles and big monsters with him.
SemperMortis wrote: Flash Gitz: Same problems as last edition, 27pts for a 6+ armor save, and if you put them in a Wagon to protect your investment then you are losing out on all buffs and rerolls, not to mention creating a 300-450pts unit that is barely effective at shooting because of range and restrictions (If it moves those super expensive 4+ to hit gunz become 5+)
Not arguing it is not so, but where comes the 'not being able to reroll' while in a Wagon come from? Also does this include the rolling a 6 to let them fire again? Couldn't find it in the rules myself.
Gamgee wrote: I'm not saying Tau can't win, but the odds are stacked extremely heavily against them. The player base could be very low skill or uber casual or bad units we have no way to know, but overall at a glance the picture is grim.
I do pretty well with my tau.
These units are actually exceptionally good - just build around them.
Commanders/Gun drones/ Longstrike/Broadsides/ Firewarriors (darkstrider/fireblades). I havn't lost a game with my 3 hammerhead list - but it's only played 1 game.
Straight up - Harlequins are OP and they murder tau. They need nerfs. Armies of all fliers need TO to do something about it (taking assault out of the game is BS) limit to 1-2 flyers per army (easy fix). Once those things are sorted out. Tau might be able to do well.
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
Deep strike them with Combi-weapons and a Lord/Captain for re-rolls. They are a 2+/5++ unit with 2 wounds each that can drop directly in front of the enemy turn 1 (or wait a few turns and surprise attack an enemy unit going for an objective), they are extremely dangerous and your opponant will have to dedicate most of their firepower to wiping the unit and the Lord/Captain if they don't want to get their shooty units bogged down in combat for a turn. What's wrong with that?
Well most terminators cannot take Combi-weapons. So your argument limits you to Space Wolfs and Chaos.
Unless your army is very fast your basically leaving 700 points in the enemy deployment zone.
Every time I've dropped ten terminators in I'm left with two or three by my next turn. It just seems like the Stormlord or BaneBlade that I constantly face are way better than terminators.
Who said anything about 10 man Terminator units? I was talking 5 man units. As for fast? Well depends on your army: if you're shooty then you Terminators were sent in to bog down enemy units that are fast and are trying to rush forward to get into cc and if you're cc orientated I should hope you are fast, but even if you aren't the Terminators can hold up deadly shooty units while you move up.
Why are you sending Terminators after a Baneblade varient!? That isn't the Terminators fault, that's poor target priority!
he didnt say anything about 10 man squads either. I assumed he was talking about dropping 2x5 man squads, i.e. 10 all up. Not sure it makes a massive difference however. Not sure how bogged down you expect anyone to get by 10 termies in combat in 8th though.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 8 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 8 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.
8 Power/chain fists and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 9 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.
EDIT (9 hits averaged)
8 Power/chain fists and and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.
You'd cut almost 200 points off that unit if you removed the trash powerfist.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 9 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.
EDIT (9 hits averaged)
8 Power/chain fists and and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.
You'd cut almost 200 points off that unit if you removed the trash powerfist.
we already know you dont like powerfists
keep it in your own thread where you basically ignore everything that had been said and shifted the discussion from terminators to terminator characters.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 9 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.
EDIT (9 hits averaged)
8 Power/chain fists and and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.
You'd cut almost 200 points off that unit if you removed the trash powerfist.
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
Deep strike them with Combi-weapons and a Lord/Captain for re-rolls. They are a 2+/5++ unit with 2 wounds each that can drop directly in front of the enemy turn 1 (or wait a few turns and surprise attack an enemy unit going for an objective), they are extremely dangerous and your opponant will have to dedicate most of their firepower to wiping the unit and the Lord/Captain if they don't want to get their shooty units bogged down in combat for a turn. What's wrong with that?
Well most terminators cannot take Combi-weapons. So your argument limits you to Space Wolfs and Chaos.
Unless your army is very fast your basically leaving 700 points in the enemy deployment zone.
Every time I've dropped ten terminators in I'm left with two or three by my next turn. It just seems like the Stormlord or BaneBlade that I constantly face are way better than terminators.
Who said anything about 10 man Terminator units? I was talking 5 man units. As for fast? Well depends on your army: if you're shooty then you Terminators were sent in to bog down enemy units that are fast and are trying to rush forward to get into cc and if you're cc orientated I should hope you are fast, but even if you aren't the Terminators can hold up deadly shooty units while you move up.
Why are you sending Terminators after a Baneblade varient!? That isn't the Terminators fault, that's poor target priority!
he didnt say anything about 10 man squads either. I assumed he was talking about dropping 2x5 man squads, i.e. 10 all up. Not sure it makes a massive difference however. Not sure how bogged down you expect anyone to get by 10 termies in combat in 8th though.
My hellblasters would nearly wipe the unit. Standing next to Guilliman. About the same point cost in comparison too. Really though - any weapons will get the job done.
Xenomancers wrote: My hellblasters would nearly wipe the unit. Standing next to Guilliman. About the same point cost in comparison too. Really though - any weapons will get the job done.
Assuming the terminators are walking or deep stuck and didnt attack them.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 9 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.
EDIT (9 hits averaged)
8 Power/chain fists and and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.
You'd cut almost 200 points off that unit if you removed the trash powerfist.
we already know you dont like powerfists
keep it in your own thread where you basically ignore everything that had been said and shifted the discussion from terminators to terminator characters.
I didn't start that - I just elaborated on what was already being discussed.
Xenomancers wrote: My hellblasters would nearly wipe the unit. Standing next to Guilliman. About the same point cost in comparison too. Really though - any weapons will get the job done.
But your hellblasters wouldn't get to fire because the Terminators would have killed them and maybe even assaulted a different unit to tie them up. Sure Girlyman would kill them afterwards but you just lost a unit and a turns shooting from another.
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
I must say I'm quite happy with my GK terminators in combat, and you can give them gate to move them out of a danger zone.
Desubot wrote: 10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.
Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 8 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.
8 Power/chain fists and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.
Well the 700 points was in reference to two five man squads with a Captain to assist them. Total = 764
Straight up - Harlequins are OP and they murder tau. They need nerfs. Armies of all fliers need TO to do something about it (taking assault out of the game is BS) limit to 1-2 flyers per army (easy fix). Once those things are sorted out. Tau might be able to do well.
I think if it turns out all flyers is super broken, the easy fix is simply to ban the Air Wing Detachment. That combined with the 3 detachment max (suggested by GW), eliminates all flyer armies. Now you could still somewhat spam them through the Patrol detachment, (you would need 1 HQ and 1 Troop for every 2 flyers, and get 0 CP), but it would help a bit by forcing the opponent to take extra units. This puts essentially a 60ish point tax on each storm raven. It isn't perfect, and storm ravens still might need a points adjustment, but for most armies this puts a hard stop on flyer spam.
The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.
The change to AP really hasn't effected terminators all that much honestly. Against AP 0 the added wound makes them twice as durable as last edition, against AP -1 they are the same durability. If they have storm shields they are basically the same against any other AP that they already were., without it the only spot they are worse is AP -2 (mostly old AP3), other than that their durability is at worst equal to what it used to be. Now they cost more, but offensively in shooting they are much better, in combat, they are a bit worse against some things and better against others.
so far, I've played vs Terminators (pure Deathwing) and watched a few BRs with them. My opponent, and people in games I witnessed dropped them down in front of my units, which to me is crazy. You basically just put a unit in a place where I was attacking anyway, and allowed me to bring more firepower to bear.
I'd always drop in a place that would divert an attack (that could change with malestrom cards obviously) and make sure that I was only hitting one or two units from the flank, making it harder for enemy to bring more firepower ono my unit without changing his game plan completely.
Not sure on best weapon fit either. Te assault cannon is nice in middle ground, but not that much better than stormbolter. The Hvy flamer is out of range in deepstrike. Cyclone is nice but expensive. As a Deathwing player too, I'd probably look at the Plasma cannon option more now.
Ok so you'll want to read this chart a little more slowly since it's "backwards".
Storm bolters from 5 Terminators have a 23% chance to kill a full unit of intercessors. 43% to kill 4. 67% to kill 3.
5 Intercessors w/ OC have a 0.68% chance to kill 5 terminators. 7% to kill 4. 27% to kill 3.
5 Intercessors w/ OC and RF have a 29% chance to kill 5 terminators. 54% to kill 4. 78% to kill 3.
There is a 3-6% chance any intercessor kills itself outright.
Conclusion: The storm bolter is damn near as effective as a PI on OC with RF.
The storm bolter would be an even more effective all round infantry killer.
Terminators can be anywhere if you don't guard against it, blast one unit and charge another before you have a chance to respond.
If you do guard against it then terminators have dictated your movement and you will not be getting rapid fire shots as often.
Note: modeled with 500,000 rounds of shooting/combat for each item.
Gamgee wrote: Pick something that isn't. New results in for a big ETC tournament the Caledonian. Tau got stomped and tabled (not an uncommon event) the flyer spam that won the first tournament in NA took the first European tournament too.
Tau placed even worse in this tournament and it was a larger sample size than the last. I wish I could get their lists, but I recall drones being worked around/killed around without too much problems. If that is being circumvented so easily our best unit int he codex has failed us and we need a complete rework.
Tau rebalance when?
"Tau aren't in first place, therefore something is very wrong"
Were they more suit heavy lists that turned out to be completely firewarrior-anemic?
I would say drop pods and by extension Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Yeah, the IC dread is tougher, but it is also more expensive, still a melee only unit with only a 6 inch move, and completely lack a decent delivery system with the loss of the drop pod (which is WAY to expensive now anyway). These two things shelved my ironclad drop pod list. Well, that and I can no longer run enough of them due to no support atm for my army.
NorseSig wrote: I would say drop pods and by extension Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Yeah, the IC dread is tougher, but it is also more expensive, still a melee only unit with only a 6 inch move, and completely lack a decent delivery system with the loss of the drop pod (which is WAY to expensive now anyway). These two things shelved my ironclad drop pod list. Well, that and I can no longer run enough of them due to no support atm for my army.
I disagree, I think Ironclads with Chainfists are awesome.
Going from T7 to T8 is massive, and while it's somewhat slow, advancing over the table doesn't take that long.
Having S12, AP4 and D4 with its 4 attacks, hitting on 3's rerolling 1's means every multiwound model around (especially larger things like monsters and vehicles) is terrified of it.
Adding 2 Heavy Flamers is expensive, but it helps negate it's one weakness (except being expensive), which is dealing with hordes.
When I want to add Dreadnaughts to my SM-lists, the Ironclad is the first one to enter the party.
fwlr wrote: Exalted sorcerors, Ahriman (they are our hqs and are useless when you have Magnus around.
I thought TS players were saying Ahriman was pretty good? He's a fast moving psyker that can cast 3 spells with a +1 to cast, isn't too shabby in cc (for a sorceror) and, unlike Magnus, you can hide him from enemy fire.
Ahriman and Magnus are both great, but they're terrible together. You run one, but not both, because otherwise you're wasting their casting which is their primary strength.
No one has tried Sun Shark spam yet? Conscripts begone!
I've been thinking about the Skyray and am not sure that it's as bad as people are saying. Assuming the full complement of markerlights, it's an almost guaranteed 6 wounds off of any target (97% chance per). Formerly the maximum chance was a 68% of taking off a wound or hull point in the best of circumstances. Of course, a lot of things have more wounds, but this means that you know pretty much exactly how much damage it's going to do to a target and don't have to waste shots. This target has 2 wounds left, for instance -- I fire 2 missiles at it.
Every demon unit that can't shoot/smite and isn't a horror. "hey bud.. Take your t3 ass and run 25+" with a 5++. You got this!!"
Seriously, the points cost for things like fleshhounds are insane considering they can't Deepstrike or shoot. I've officially shelved my 8k of demons (mainly khorne).
NorseSig wrote: I would say drop pods and by extension Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Yeah, the IC dread is tougher, but it is also more expensive, still a melee only unit with only a 6 inch move, and completely lack a decent delivery system with the loss of the drop pod (which is WAY to expensive now anyway). These two things shelved my ironclad drop pod list. Well, that and I can no longer run enough of them due to no support atm for my army.
I disagree, I think Ironclads with Chainfists are awesome.
Going from T7 to T8 is massive, and while it's somewhat slow, advancing over the table doesn't take that long.
Having S12, AP4 and D4 with its 4 attacks, hitting on 3's rerolling 1's means every multiwound model around (especially larger things like monsters and vehicles) is terrified of it.
Adding 2 Heavy Flamers is expensive, but it helps negate it's one weakness (except being expensive), which is dealing with hordes.
When I want to add Dreadnaughts to my SM-lists, the Ironclad is the first one to enter the party.
I normally play on a bigger than normal table 6ftx8ft. A 6in move is just not enough.
... or if you take Pask as warlord and give him warlord trait that reroll 1's. He will have 7-8 hits on average with plasma and wound 5-6 of those. He will save 1-2 and take 2 damage each. Already we have 8 damage. This is before las canon.
Go ahead and try, I regularly 1 shot vehicles and big monsters with him.
I already tried it. Rolled the dice, repeatedly. With and without rerolling 1s.
So we have 1 supercharged executioner plasma and 2 supercharged regular plasma cannons, shooting stationary and rerolling 1s to hit (Pask doesn't get a movement penalty for his turret, but he does for the sponsons so let's just say all stationary) vs a T8 3+ save target... for an average of 6.07 damage per round. That's the average. You say you've had better results, but those are what we gamers refer to as "outliers".
No idea how you're getting an average of 5-6 wounds from 7-8 hits when you have a 50% chance to wound per hit. Those are some amazing dice you have there.
I don't know what you're talking about with "warlord traits", the only warlord traits that currently exist are on p186 of the rulebook. There's nothing about rerolling 1s for shooting on that page. Are you referring to Pask's tank orders?
Note that I'm not defending the tervigon. It still isn't worth using. But the chances of Pask inflicting 14 wounds on a T8, 3+ model with 3 plasma and a lascannon are around 2% if we're generous. If he doesn't move and isn't damaged.
Fhanados wrote: Possessed Marines: D3 attacks? Really? Looks like they're taking a back seat to Berzerkers for another 10 years
Possessed can take advantage of daemon allies.
If there is a nearby DP, they are rerolling 1s to hit.
If there is a daemon herald nearby, they are +1 STR If there is a greater deaemon nearby, they get to roll on the greater daemons LD.
If they are Tzeentch, and within 9" of the changling, they are -1 to be hit.
If they are Nurgle, they can take advantage of Epidemius' tally (which gets really, really good)
If they are Slaanesh, you can cast Warptime and Hysterical Frenzy on them.
At STR 6, possessed start wounding guard on a 2+, and T6 vehicles on a 4+.
All that said....bezerkers are still better. The fact that bezerkers get effectivly four STR 6, -1 ap attacks a turn for only 17 points is kind of a no-brainer.
If possessed were the same cost as bezerkers, they might be taken for their greater move and invuln save.
From the couple of games I have managed to get in so far:
Necron Monolith; costs a lot and doesn't seem to do that much damage. 4+ BS which quickly degrades with damage, and particle whip going from a large pie-plate to D3 shots.
Destroyers of all types seem surprisingly expensive
Daemons: on Daemon Princes, Axes and Swords are massively expensive and not as good as talons. Shame I modelled axes and swords on all my daemon princes since they used to have a purpose.
Necron Monolith is finally good. You can now use all 5 ranged attacks against a single target, for impressive volumes of fire.
Not to mention the portal inflicts mortal wounds against assaulting units. The other night I had a monolith dispatch a charging marine unit between snap fire and mortal wounds inflicted.
Necron Monolith; costs a lot and doesn't seem to do that much damage. 4+ BS which quickly degrades with damage, and particle whip going from a large pie-plate to D3 shots.
.
Necron Monolith; costs a lot and doesn't seem to do that much damage. 4+ BS which quickly degrades with damage, and particle whip going from a large pie-plate to D3 shots.
.
It's a deployment mechanism, not a gunboat.
Its also a gunboat boat that can be protected in reserves.
arguably has better anti infantry shooting than a land raider, worse anti tank than lascannons but more shots.
Necron Monolith; costs a lot and doesn't seem to do that much damage. 4+ BS which quickly degrades with damage, and particle whip going from a large pie-plate to D3 shots.
.
It's a deployment mechanism, not a gunboat.
Its also a gunboat boat that can be protected in reserves.
arguably has better anti infantry shooting than a land raider, worse anti tank than lascannons but more shots.
costs about the same. with some other nice rules.
The portal of exile is an...interesting...method of discouraging charges. However, for its price, I would prefer quantum shields.
There's not a chance of that though. Not with 20 freaking wounds.
