Plasma overheats more often at night. Moving Plasma at night makes it explode 50% of the time.
Overheating Plasma GUNS now instantly kills Razorbacks or any other vehicle with plasma weaponry despite vehicles not suffering "Gets Hot" since 3rd ed (maybe since before?) Overheating Heavy Plasma Cannons on Dreadnoughts however is totally fine and will only cause a scratch on the paintjob.
Flamethrowers don't work in overwatch if the assaulting unit assaults from 8.0000000001" away but do from 7.9999999999" away. Obviously the extra time it takes for the enemy to reach you gives them performance anxiety.
A flamer is better at killing a plane flying a mile up and moving at mach 7 than it is killing unarmoured bugs in a ditch.
A Land Raider that is 50% obscured and inside terrain gets +1 to it's save, but if it's 99% obscured and even a single ℓP outside of the area terrain, no save bonus.
Dried up balls of goo (Spore Mines) somehow are able to rip though all manner of magical protections, ceremite vehicle armour and make stuff that dodges really good suddenly unable to dodge.
To extend on the above, the aforementioned balls of goo will strip a wound off a TITAN on a 2+ when a lascannon can barely scratch it.
Cataphractii Terminators, lumbering literal behemoths unable to move faster than a brisk stroll suddenly TRIPLE in speed when there is something to punch way over there!
When a Warboss and his Boyz who are well 'ard try and smash some 'umie skullz, the Warboss more often than not just trips over and faceplants, or decides that using his killy bitz wasn't all that fun anyway.
The usual complaint that there are so many re-roll miss auras but you can't take into account modifiers BEFORE re-rolling.
Multitudes of people trying their hardest to break the new edition with questionable RAW interpretations. Even more people trying their hardest to convince people that these units that they've never played with yet, and have only looked at them on paper, are the worst units in the game, unplayable and a massive nerf to their faction.
Seriously, the release of 8th ed has brought out so many people who are trying to claim that 8th is one of 40k's worst editions. I find this hillarious and ever so silly.
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
BaconCatBug wrote: Plasma overheats more often at night. Moving Plasma at night makes it explode 50% of the time.
Shooting at night is considerably more stressful than doing it by daylight. The same for stationary vs moving. Overheating not only include mechanical but human failure. See? Took two minutes to make sense out of it
Dried up balls of goo (Spore Mines) somehow are able to rip though all manner of magical protections, ceremite vehicle armour and make stuff that dodges really good suddenly unable to dodge.
Maybe it's not their explosion but the poisonous gas getting through the smallest gaps in armour? I don't love it but it can be explained
Cataphractii Terminators, lumbering literal behemoths unable to move faster than a brisk stroll suddenly TRIPLE in speed when there is something to punch way over there!
They save energy from the power source of the exoskeleton to achieve short bursts of speed when needed (e.g. charging)?
When a Warboss and his Boyz who are well 'ard try and smash some 'umie skullz, the Warboss more often than not just trips over and faceplants, or decides that using his killy bitz wasn't all that fun anyway.
Care to explain? I don't get the in-game mechanics involved
Any more gems from 8th?
Well, you had to try a bit harder with some of them
When a Warboss and his Boyz who are well 'ard try and smash some 'umie skullz, the Warboss more often than not just trips over and faceplants, or decides that using his killy bitz wasn't all that fun anyway.
He's trying to say about Charge rolling.. which came several editions ago.
DanielFM wrote: Shooting at night is considerably more stressful than doing it by daylight. The same for stationary vs moving. Overheating not only include mechanical but human failure. See? Took two minutes to make sense out of it
It took two minutes to create a fluff justification. Doesn't change the fact that Plasma Guns detonating more often at night or when firing at specific types of targets is an unintended consequence of a badly written rule needs to be reversed immediately.
DanielFM wrote: Shooting at night is considerably more stressful than doing it by daylight. The same for stationary vs moving. Overheating not only include mechanical but human failure. See? Took two minutes to make sense out of it
It took two minutes to create a fluff justification. Doesn't change the fact that Plasma Guns detonating more often at night or when firing at specific types of targets is an unintended consequence of a badly written rule needs to be reversed immediately.
Stress is hardly likely to cause a fatal injury from aiming.
BaconCatBug wrote: Plasma overheats more often at night. Moving Plasma at night makes it explode 50% of the time.
Harder to operate in hazardous conditions. Harder to get the proper setup if on the move constantly. Perhaps try to view it from a thematic angle rather than raw rules?
Overheating Plasma GUNS now instantly kills Razorbacks or any other vehicle with plasma weaponry despite vehicles not suffering "Gets Hot" since 3rd ed (maybe since before?) Overheating Heavy Plasma Cannons on Dreadnoughts however is totally fine and will only cause a scratch on the paintjob.
Vehicles have always suffered Gets Hot. This rendition sees Dreadnoughts and Leman Russes having specially designed heavy plasma weaponry while other vehicles appear to have done a botch job and just strapped it on. I'm pretty sure if I strap a leaky, prone to malfunction and hazardous weapon not specifically designed for a vehicle onto the vehicle it's going to have great results.
Flamethrowers don't work in overwatch if the assaulting unit assaults from 8.0000000001" away but do from 7.9999999999" away. Obviously the extra time it takes for the enemy to reach you gives them performance anxiety.
Or perhaps surprise that the enemy could get you from that far away. Considering the Average charge is going to be 7 sans modifiers (2D6 nets an average result of 7) I think Flamers are just fine.
A flamer is better at killing a plane flying a mile up and moving at mach 7 than it is killing unarmoured bugs in a ditch.
This is odd, I will give you that.
A Land Raider that is 50% obscured and inside terrain gets +1 to it's save, but if it's 99% obscured and even a single ℓP outside of the area terrain, no save bonus.
So drive that extra half an inch. It won't kill you.
Dried up balls of goo (Spore Mines) somehow are able to rip though all manner of magical protections, ceremite vehicle armour and make stuff that dodges really good suddenly unable to dodge.
Ah yes, because ninjas are famed for dodging mines with reflexes. Because armour is great against potent bio-acids. Magic protections that require immense concentration at times work so well when a tentacled fether jumps at your face and explodes.
You still crying about spore mines? Seriously, you play ORKS. You are crying about something that is S and T 1, with a 7+ save that can give up first blood kill points. And on average it does a single mortal wound. You run a gods damned horde army. Oh no, a single mortal wound on a 6 point Ork! DOOOOOOM!
To extend on the above, the aforementioned balls of goo will strip a wound off a TITAN on a 2+ when a lascannon can barely scratch it.
I'm sure the 30+ wound vehicle, some of which can regenerate wounds, is so concerned by that single wound suffered.
Cataphractii Terminators, lumbering literal behemoths unable to move faster than a brisk stroll suddenly TRIPLE in speed when there is something to punch way over there!
Amazing what momentum does.
When a Warboss and his Boyz who are well 'ard try and smash some 'umie skullz, the Warboss more often than not just trips over and faceplants, or decides that using his killy bitz wasn't all that fun anyway.
You're complaining about luck now and trying to say you should be exempt from chance and luck because of fluff. Really?
The usual complaint that there are so many re-roll miss auras but you can't take into account modifiers BEFORE re-rolling.
Suddenly you have to think about firing modes, positioning, what powers to try and deny - I know the influx of actual decisions to be made from 6th and 7th's potato modes must be a bit much for you.
It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.
Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.
carldooley wrote: How about the horde of Infantry against any Titan.
"Oh crap, a titan. . .we're dead"
becomes, "shoot our flashlights at it. We'll kill it eventually. . ."
Exactly as they have been trained to do. The glorious imperial flashlight will bring down any foe if used in enough quantity. I applaud that unit's commissar for maintaining acceptable levels of indoctrination.
carldooley wrote: How about the horde of Infantry against any Titan.
"Oh crap, a titan. . .we're dead"
becomes, "shoot our flashlights at it. We'll kill it eventually. . ."
I think this idea has been disproven, due to physical limitations of how many Conscripts can be gotten within firing range and the high rate of attrition suffered by the infantry horde at the weapons/feet of the Titan.
BaconCatBug wrote: Plasma overheats more often at night. Moving Plasma at night makes it explode 50% of the time.
Shooting at night is considerably more stressful than doing it by daylight. The same for stationary vs moving. Overheating not only include mechanical but human failure. See? Took two minutes to make sense out of it
Dried up balls of goo (Spore Mines) somehow are able to rip though all manner of magical protections, ceremite vehicle armour and make stuff that dodges really good suddenly unable to dodge.
Maybe it's not their explosion but the poisonous gas getting through the smallest gaps in armour? I don't love it but it can be explained
Cataphractii Terminators, lumbering literal behemoths unable to move faster than a brisk stroll suddenly TRIPLE in speed when there is something to punch way over there!
They save energy from the power source of the exoskeleton to achieve short bursts of speed when needed (e.g. charging)?
When a Warboss and his Boyz who are well 'ard try and smash some 'umie skullz, the Warboss more often than not just trips over and faceplants, or decides that using his killy bitz wasn't all that fun anyway.
Care to explain? I don't get the in-game mechanics involved
Any more gems from 8th?
Well, you had to try a bit harder with some of them
A landraider performs a tokio drift power slide straight up to a wall of a ruin facing in some other direction of a target, getting 99.99999999% covered but measures line of sight from an edge of a tread thus the enemy doesn't benefit from cover.
Maybe the guns are shooting at the horizon with a first cosmic speed so that the shots that had been fired a couple hours ago are making it around the planet and hitting the target right around cover
BaconCatBug wrote: Plasma overheats more often at night. Moving Plasma at night makes it explode 50% of the time.
Overheating Plasma GUNS now instantly kills Razorbacks or any other vehicle with plasma weaponry despite vehicles not suffering "Gets Hot" since 3rd ed (maybe since before?) Overheating Heavy Plasma Cannons on Dreadnoughts however is totally fine and will only cause a scratch on the paintjob.
Flamethrowers don't work in overwatch if the assaulting unit assaults from 8.0000000001" away but do from 7.9999999999" away. Obviously the extra time it takes for the enemy to reach you gives them performance anxiety.
A flamer is better at killing a plane flying a mile up and moving at mach 7 than it is killing unarmoured bugs in a ditch.
A Land Raider that is 50% obscured and inside terrain gets +1 to it's save, but if it's 99% obscured and even a single ℓP outside of the area terrain, no save bonus.
Dried up balls of goo (Spore Mines) somehow are able to rip though all manner of magical protections, ceremite vehicle armour and make stuff that dodges really good suddenly unable to dodge.
To extend on the above, the aforementioned balls of goo will strip a wound off a TITAN on a 2+ when a lascannon can barely scratch it.
Cataphractii Terminators, lumbering literal behemoths unable to move faster than a brisk stroll suddenly TRIPLE in speed when there is something to punch way over there!
When a Warboss and his Boyz who are well 'ard try and smash some 'umie skullz, the Warboss more often than not just trips over and faceplants, or decides that using his killy bitz wasn't all that fun anyway.
The usual complaint that there are so many re-roll miss auras but you can't take into account modifiers BEFORE re-rolling.
BaconCatBug wrote: Plasma overheats more often at night. Moving Plasma at night makes it explode 50% of the time.
..............
When a Warboss and his Boyz who are well 'ard try and smash some 'umie skullz, the Warboss more often than not just trips over and faceplants, or decides that using his killy bitz wasn't all that fun anyway.
Care to explain? I don't get the in-game mechanics involved
Any more gems from 8th?
Well, you had to try a bit harder with some of them
A landraider performs a tokio drift power slide straight up to a wall of a ruin facing in some other direction of a target, getting 99.99999999% covered but measures line of sight from an edge of a tread thus the enemy doesn't benefit from cover.
Maybe the guns are shooting at the horizon with a first cosmic speed so that the shots that had been fired a couple hours ago are making it around the planet and hitting the target right around cover
For the vehicles mostly covered still being able to shoot rule, I just fluff it as
The skilled Vehicle Crew suddenly back out just enough to fire, and just as quickly reverse direction and disappear back into cover.
The models are abstractions. This is no more ridiculous than assault units with immovable legs and arms, we have to use our imaginations.
So we are discussing the lack of reality for our games of the far future?
Many things discussed here already had elements in prior editions.
Do we really need to discuss how some giant tank should be hard to shoot at from being "obscured"?
Maybe with some kind of setup/ambush rule I could roll with that but after the sucker starts shooting, the cover means squat (similar in absence to that race...).
That 50% rule I keep thinking of various "hull down" cover made specifically for tanks.
I do admit, being able to shoot from any part of the model is a bit of a "reality break" but makes sense for the ability to target "any part of the model" so they both go hand in hand: all or nothing.
Imagine the arguments of some 3/4 rule or something...
I do admit much of us seem to be well mixed between the "that unit is garbage" and "that unit is OP!".
Spoiler:
I think it is not so silly from a game-play viewpoint.
Remember these rules are to give everyone something to play right from the start.
I will be interested to see as codexes roll out, if they will get more "realistic" or more "silly" as we indulge in the classic codex-creep.
I bought all the indexes so I at least have a reasonable base-line if things go all weird later.
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Only in the shooting phase. Quit being so literal with rules interpretations....
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Intruder wrote: It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.
Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.
Intruder wrote: It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.
Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.
Why is it blowing up?
-4 to hit. That's only if you overcharge it though . If you don't overcharge you still miss no matter what you roll.
I definitely have an issue in this edition with the way some people are interpreting abstract game mechanics in the most obtusely literal way they can to score imaginary points on the internet.
Like, Ork Bosses don't "fall on their face" when they fail a charge roll. That's not what the rule represents. You know that. Of course you do. But hey, winning the internet is important I suppose.
Intruder wrote: It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.
Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.
Why is it blowing up?
Something to do with "Gets Hot on a roll of 1" being 1 or less, even when modified.
So, it'll blow up on a 1 anyway,
Or, 1 or 2 if Night Fighting modifies a roll of 2 to be a 1.
And so on.
Again... I would have to say that the launch of 8th has also been the rise of TFG. It really does get worse with each edition, people are now deliberately misinterpreting rules and RAW just to try and make some obtuse point. Sad.
BaconCatBug wrote: Plasma overheats more often at night. Moving Plasma at night makes it explode 50% of the time.
Harder to operate in hazardous conditions. Harder to get the proper setup if on the move constantly. Perhaps try to view it from a thematic angle rather than raw rules?
Overheating Plasma GUNS now instantly kills Razorbacks or any other vehicle with plasma weaponry despite vehicles not suffering "Gets Hot" since 3rd ed (maybe since before?) Overheating Heavy Plasma Cannons on Dreadnoughts however is totally fine and will only cause a scratch on the paintjob.
Vehicles have always suffered Gets Hot. This rendition sees Dreadnoughts and Leman Russes having specially designed heavy plasma weaponry while other vehicles appear to have done a botch job and just strapped it on. I'm pretty sure if I strap a leaky, prone to malfunction and hazardous weapon not specifically designed for a vehicle onto the vehicle it's going to have great results.
Flamethrowers don't work in overwatch if the assaulting unit assaults from 8.0000000001" away but do from 7.9999999999" away. Obviously the extra time it takes for the enemy to reach you gives them performance anxiety.
Or perhaps surprise that the enemy could get you from that far away. Considering the Average charge is going to be 7 sans modifiers (2D6 nets an average result of 7) I think Flamers are just fine.
A flamer is better at killing a plane flying a mile up and moving at mach 7 than it is killing unarmoured bugs in a ditch.
This is odd, I will give you that.
A Land Raider that is 50% obscured and inside terrain gets +1 to it's save, but if it's 99% obscured and even a single ℓP outside of the area terrain, no save bonus.
So drive that extra half an inch. It won't kill you.
Dried up balls of goo (Spore Mines) somehow are able to rip though all manner of magical protections, ceremite vehicle armour and make stuff that dodges really good suddenly unable to dodge.
Ah yes, because ninjas are famed for dodging mines with reflexes. Because armour is great against potent bio-acids. Magic protections that require immense concentration at times work so well when a tentacled fether jumps at your face and explodes.
You still crying about spore mines? Seriously, you play ORKS. You are crying about something that is S and T 1, with a 7+ save that can give up first blood kill points. And on average it does a single mortal wound. You run a gods damned horde army. Oh no, a single mortal wound on a 6 point Ork! DOOOOOOM!
To extend on the above, the aforementioned balls of goo will strip a wound off a TITAN on a 2+ when a lascannon can barely scratch it.
I'm sure the 30+ wound vehicle, some of which can regenerate wounds, is so concerned by that single wound suffered.
Cataphractii Terminators, lumbering literal behemoths unable to move faster than a brisk stroll suddenly TRIPLE in speed when there is something to punch way over there!
Amazing what momentum does.
When a Warboss and his Boyz who are well 'ard try and smash some 'umie skullz, the Warboss more often than not just trips over and faceplants, or decides that using his killy bitz wasn't all that fun anyway.
You're complaining about luck now and trying to say you should be exempt from chance and luck because of fluff. Really?
The usual complaint that there are so many re-roll miss auras but you can't take into account modifiers BEFORE re-rolling.
Suddenly you have to think about firing modes, positioning, what powers to try and deny - I know the influx of actual decisions to be made from 6th and 7th's potato modes must be a bit much for you.
Any more gems from 8th?
Almost every post you have made since.
Wow.
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Hollow wrote: Again... I would have to say that the launch of 8th has also been the rise of TFG. It really does get worse with each edition, people are now deliberately misinterpreting rules and RAW just to try and make some obtuse point. Sad.
Quiet.
He might hear you.
TFG is right over there...
Hollow wrote: Again... I would have to say that the launch of 8th has also been the rise of TFG. It really does get worse with each edition, people are now deliberately misinterpreting rules and RAW just to try and make some obtuse point. Sad.
It's actually business as usual for Dakka. I still remember the infamous argument where a tank cannot shoot in 5th edition because it had no eyes to draw line of sight from, and how "Vision" and "line of sight" were totally different concepts because nothing in the rules directly tied them together.
If anything, this edition saw a reduction in the stupid, if only because the game devs actually released FAQs telling people to stop being stupid.
Intruder wrote: It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.
Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.
Why is it blowing up?
-4 to hit. That's only if you overcharge it though . If you don't overcharge you still miss no matter what you roll.
Holy wtf?
I didn't know things were that bad.
Gw needs to distinguish natural ones from modified.
What a cluster
DanielFM wrote: Shooting at night is considerably more stressful than doing it by daylight. The same for stationary vs moving. Overheating not only include mechanical but human failure. See? Took two minutes to make sense out of it
It took two minutes to create a fluff justification. Doesn't change the fact that Plasma Guns detonating more often at night or when firing at specific types of targets is an unintended consequence of a badly written rule needs to be reversed immediately.
So much this.
I was gonna buy the hardcover rules but after this sort of thing plus so many revisions plus bad stories, marines without beaks and no useful cover I decided to wait for next year.
Hollow wrote: Again... I would have to say that the launch of 8th has also been the rise of TFG. It really does get worse with each edition, people are now deliberately misinterpreting rules and RAW just to try and make some obtuse point. Sad.
It's actually business as usual for Dakka. I still remember the infamous argument where a tank cannot shoot in 5th edition because it had no eyes to draw line of sight from, and how "Vision" and "line of sight" were totally different concepts because nothing in the rules directly tied them together.
If anything, this edition saw a reduction in the stupid, if only because the game devs actually released FAQs telling people to stop being stupid.
Ah the days of Terminators not wearing Terminator armour and Drop Pods giving up half VPs the moment they're put on the board. Good times.
I do feel their needs to be a major risk to using Supercharge....it should be a desperate attempt not a standard option. They are already highly unstable weapons so the risk needs to be great. Perhaps a natural roll of one kills the bearer (or D6 mortal wounds to a vehicle and cannot be used for rest of game), and this roll is unaffected by modifiers and cannot be rerolled.
On the one hand, I honestly feel like gets hot was meant to trigger on natural rolls of 1 before modifiers (unless FAQ's otherwise and I didn't see it yet) but on the other, it only does that in the overcharged profile (which is stronger than plasma used to be!) and I honestly prefer that it's something you might want to prepare to use in the preceding phases...
Hollow wrote: Again... I would have to say that the launch of 8th has also been the rise of TFG. It really does get worse with each edition, people are now deliberately misinterpreting rules and RAW just to try and make some obtuse point. Sad.
Every new edition has people through "rose colour glasses" or intentional misdirection or misremembering old rules as new, happen... every.. new... set.. of... rules.
GW likes to write in a "casual" tone so it can cause confusion when trying to identify a "hard rule".
The more "competitive" types will have the advantage of hammering out tournament rules to clean up some of this, the majority of casual gamers will not have any higher authority to point to in order to hammer out the grey-zones.
This rule alone seems reasonable till you look at it harder: “Every model [is] within 2″ horizontally and 6″ vertically of at least one other model from their unit.” I see way too many instances where I can manage a 6" squad "coherency".
Luckily we no longer use templates, so that does not matter as much (case for obtuse point?).
"Misunderstandings and neglect occasion more mischief in the world than even malice and wickedness. At all events, the two latter are of less frequent occurrence.” - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1774)
You may be more familiar with "Hanlon's Razor": "Never attribute malice to what can adequately be explained by stupidity." (~1978)
Intentional misinterpreting rules just to make a "useless point" seems an awful lot of work for no apparent reward, are you sure you are not missing something?
I tend to keep the below quote in mind:
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
"Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit.” - Oscar Wilde
Actually sounds kind of cool. You've got a Beastmaster Kabalite sending his hordes of highly trained flocks to try and tear apart a large contingency of Tau Drones.
Though I have to wonder.. Does everyone just always fire on Overcharge? It sounds like everyone keeps popping it off no matter the situation. It's not like S7 AP-3 is a bad thing..
Ratius wrote: Terrain, LOS rules and cover in general is very poor this edition.
Heres to hoping they seriously take some time to rework them.
Having said that they werent great in 7th either but thats no excuse when launching a new ruleset.
Exalted, the terrain ruies are a dumpster fire currently.
As to the main topic, let's see.
Ruins without bases are basically useless
You only need to see and be in range of a single model out of 30 to kill them all
Random damage or shooting output right up next to solid reliable weaponry that does 2-3 damage a shot.
Random charge still, somehow, in the game.
The lowliest grot tank to the massive baneblade, all apparently forgot they were tanks and now just resemble sadness wagons of cuckery.
"I love this new editions renewed focus on infantry" yeah its so different now that we refer to infantry as bubble wrap and take them simply to bubble wrap around our sadness wagons.
Supersonic jet fighters with spherical vision but still forced to move because that's apparently a bridge too far in terms of lost detail or realism.
Leaving close combat with zero downside or risk of damage. "Once I told the chaplain I very much didn't enjoy him hacking at my neck he briskly apologized and pointed me on my merry way"
Heavy armour (power armour) being somehow incentivized to sit on its but in cover but totally useless in the open and the worse your overall armour, the less you likely care about even getting cover due to diminishing returns. (taking a 3 to a 2 is one ting, taking a 6 to a 5 is another).
Creating a massive disparity and only 2 real units, those that can fly and those that cannot.
Not allowing a unit to be held in reserve without some bespokeness, because reasons.
Having ground vehicles without limbs "fight" in clsoe combat, how did that not get laughed out of the room?
Introducing universal splitfire while taking away fire arcs...
I go you go deployment, enough said.
Artillery that can target anything anywhere on the board, with the only criterion being range. I generally think artillery and flamers being go to anti-air speaks for itself in terms of silliness.
The entire game taking context. common sense and any ability to adsorb the player and replacing it with giant health bars of mediocrity.
A collection of foc's that at the end of the day control almost nothing, allow for endless spam and now with the added monkey wrench of under strength units. (the cognitive dissonance on the podcast scene has been massive on this point, spamming isn't the problem they tell us, then the next 45 minutes of every podcast is players talking about their lists full of the same unit)
I see a lot of complaints but the game store was booming, the number of players in my area has tripled, and the shelves are looking barren.
Which means overall the simplification while won't please everyone has made the game more enjoyable for most. Of course people will try to break the rules every way possible.
Example the complaint of re-rolls before modifiers. Is dumb re-rolls happen when re-rolls are triggered because that is when it says to take them.
Example a unit has -1 to hit, but also has re-roll fails to hit. They fire at a unit, and 3 of them roll a 3. Which for their BS is a hit, but due to the -1 becomes a 2 which is a fail.
Which triggers the re-roll because they failed. You can't pass then fail.
Conversely a unit of hormagaunts gets +1 to hit from something and charges a unit and rolls 3 1's. Scything talons let them re-rolls misses of 1's. The re-roll is triggered, and the +1 does not make it a 2 and stop the re-roll.
IE That rule was to make re-rolls work, not stop them from working. Another a plasma gun has a -2 to hit from moving, and firing at a vehicle that popped smoke.
Being insane he tries an overcharged shot, and rolls a 3. Minus 2 is a 1. However a captain is nearby and he can re-roll 1's. It's now a 1, and he re-rolls it. Rolling a 2, and still melts into a pile of goop.
"Example a unit has -1 to hit, but also has re-roll fails to hit. They fire at a unit, and 3 of them roll a 3. Which for their BS is a hit, but due to the -1 becomes a 2 which is a fail.
Which triggers the re-roll because they failed. You can't pass then fail. "
Martel732 wrote: "Example a unit has -1 to hit, but also has re-roll fails to hit. They fire at a unit, and 3 of them roll a 3. Which for their BS is a hit, but due to the -1 becomes a 2 which is a fail.
Which triggers the re-roll because they failed. You can't pass then fail. "
That's not the way it works.
It is in 8th. rerolls are applied before modifiers.
Martel is right, wagguy got it wrong. You can't reroll, as you didn't fail to hit in the moment the reroll would apply.
I don't get the rage about plasmaguns. For the first time in all(?) editions the imperium finally got them stabilized. If you are afraid of melting your razorback... don't fire them overcharged or don't take them in the first place. Or be a good crazed helbrute and have fun with it.
Player1: I will shoot at that 12' tall lava monster called the Avatar
Player2: You can't.
P1: Why not? It out in the open!
P2: I flew my Swooping Hawks to land 12" behind your firing unit, and the Avvy is 13" away.
P1: Y you do dis!?
==== Some time later ====
P2: I shoot your 12' tall Dreadnought
P1: Nu-uh, he's standing behind some Terminators!
P2: Doesn't matter.
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Only in the shooting phase. Quit being so literal with rules interpretations....
I'm amazed at the amount of people in the thread that are completely missing the fact that the thread is largely meant to be humorous.
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Only in the shooting phase. Quit being so literal with rules interpretations....
I'm amazed at the amount of people in the thread that are completely missing the fact that the thread is largely meant to be humorous.
If the thread has potential for besmirching good lady GW's honour then you're guaranteed a sense of humour malfunction from certain... individuals.
Several necrons come under fire and are destroyed. A large remainder of the unit flees the field. A few moments later, the mini-scarabs roll miraculously and put together not only all the slain warriors, but somehow find spare parts to replace several of the warriors that fled!
Swooping Hawk Exarch Idranel has thirteen centuries' experience on the battlefield. On this day, at this hour, he deems it appropriate to wait high on a plateau for the right moment to strike. He sees it, it is mere moments away. He readies himself and his fellow Hawks, preparing their wings for their glorious anti-gravitic flight. He bends his knees, ready to leap into battle. The moment is coming. It is here. It is time!
He leaps into the sky, and slams face first into a giant sign that reads "Any unit that does not enter play by turn three is considered destroyed" and he and his squad vanish in a puff of logic.
niv-mizzet wrote: I'm amazed at the amount of people in the thread that are completely missing the fact that the thread is largely meant to be humorous.
Is it just humour though? Almost everything brought up in this thread has a sister thread somewhere on the forum of large collections of people whining that GW ruined their favourite unit or the rules are broken or GW doesn't care about balancing bla de bla de bla. I'd venture that, despite the jokey undertones, most people in this thread actually completely agree that what they're posting is a rediculous aspect of the rules and (in some of the more histerical cases, *cough*most of the cases*cough*) believe that the game is much worse because their little piece of fluff reflected in rules is not included in this editions rules.
Though I would agree that this thread is a humerous view of angry people getting frustrated that they no longer have anything valid to complain about concerning GW.
Deathwatxh specialised ammo.
Busts up the smallest organic thing to Daemon Princes, Tau Crisis Suits, Monstrous Crisis Suits, mechanical zombies, fleshy zombies, cyborgs and even Wraithbone with ease.
That thinly plated little Land Speeder with easy access to the drivers/pilots shrugs it off because it's a real machine dammit.
No they haven't. Only for the last couple of editions. It used to be that vehicles had cooling systems and never suffered "gets hot". It made sense and I don't know why they changed it.
No they haven't. Only for the last couple of editions. It used to be that vehicles had cooling systems and never suffered "gets hot". It made sense and I don't know why they changed it.
The fact that you can have vehicles simultaneously hit and miss each other. Or the fact that you cannot assault flyers because they're out of reach, but you cannot move past them because it violates the 1" rule, turning them into a You Shall Not Pass wall versus models that cannot fly. Oh, and then there's this anecdote (and remember, Valkyries have Hover Jet).
The fliers don't actually fly above the cloudline, like people seem to think. They fly low and slowly (for them) because hitting a dude from a mile in the air while moving at the speed of sound is REALLY hard.
All the flamer dude has to do is point his gun up and fire into the air to make a wall of flame that might damage systems or whatever or make the pilot spaz out because he suddenly has to avoid a superheated fireball.
A Tau Sky Ray, pinnacle of anti-grav and smart systems technology enters the battlefield. It's a hard fought war, and soldiers have been holding the line for hours now, casualties ramping up on both side with thousands of soldiers giving their lives. The Sky Ray fires its deadly payload, killing 6 grots. Out of ammo forever, he then proceed to throw itself towards the enemy lines in hopes to distract some big guys for a bit.
Dominating the battlefield through shear firepower and its towering size, a powerful Stormurge battlesuit is plowing through the enemy lines. Despise having sustained damage from the Astra Militarum heavy weaponry, the mechanical giant is still operating at full potential. Suddenly, a scared and isolated imperial guard aims his flashlight towards the Tau construct. The devastating blow is just too much for the behemoth: its optics explode, reducing its accuracy; giant chunks of armor fall off, reducing its stopping power; and the sturdy mechanics of its gigantic legs give up, drastically reducing its ability to stomp. The beast is now just a shadow of its former self. Damn Imperial flashlights.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm actually okay with flamers hitting fliers.
The fliers don't actually fly above the cloudline, like people seem to think. They fly low and slowly (for them) because hitting a dude from a mile in the air while moving at the speed of sound is REALLY hard.
All the flamer dude has to do is point his gun up and fire into the air to make a wall of flame that might damage systems or whatever or make the pilot spaz out because he suddenly has to avoid a superheated fireball.
Have you ever flown an airplane? 1,000 feet AGL is the typical lowest safe altitude in general aviation. Furthermore the cloud ceiling is usually more than 3,500 feet AGL as well, and only goes lower on really cloudy and rainy days.
The longest range flamethrower to my knowledge is the m132 armored flamethrower, which has a range of 200 meters, (or about 600 feet).
This is a typical a10 strafing run Look at his relative speed in relation to the tree tops, further more look at his altitude, which appears to be more than 500 feet at its lowest.
Using this data tell me how this makes logical sense?
On a different note, an aircraft should not be affected by moving..... Aircraft are ridiculously steady platforms given the speed at which they travel. Even a pinky general aviation aircraft can remain relatively straight as long as there isn't a big ole cross wind. An aircraft with a sophisticated fly by wire system, gyroscopic stabilized guns, sights, 40,000 years of advanced engineering and weapons that literally travel at the speed of light, and you're telling me, that this aircraft is less capable of staying on target than a tank?. Furthermore, you're telling me that a guy on the ground with a rifle is a better shot than a trained combat pilot when against other flyers? The vendetta is not a dedicated air to air fighter, but it's still going to be nominally better at taking out other flyers with similar flight characteristics than a guy on the ground.
Oh yeah, also why does a supersonic jet get to capture objectives?
So really the debate comes down to those who enjoy raw rules and those who enjoy abstract rules.
Me personally, I don't want to have to justify any rule or apply imagination in abstract to the rules. I think rules should be so complete that nothing can be left to question or in Warhammer a dozen handshake rulings before play.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm actually okay with flamers hitting fliers.
The fliers don't actually fly above the cloudline, like people seem to think. They fly low and slowly (for them) because hitting a dude from a mile in the air while moving at the speed of sound is REALLY hard.
All the flamer dude has to do is point his gun up and fire into the air to make a wall of flame that might damage systems or whatever or make the pilot spaz out because he suddenly has to avoid a superheated fireball.
Have you ever flown an airplane? 1,000 feet AGL is the typical lowest safe altitude in general aviation. Furthermore the cloud ceiling is usually more than 3,500 feet AGL as well, and only goes lower on really cloudy and rainy days.
The longest range flamethrower to my knowledge is the m132 armored flamethrower, which has a range of 200 meters, (or about 600 feet).
This is a typical a10 strafing run Look at his relative speed in relation to the tree tops, further more look at his altitude, which appears to be more than 500 feet at its lowest.
Using this data tell me how this makes logical sense?
On a different note, an aircraft should not be affected by moving..... Aircraft are ridiculously steady platforms given the speed at which they travel. Even a pinky general aviation aircraft can remain relatively straight as long as there isn't a big ole cross wind. An aircraft with a sophisticated fly by wire system, gyroscopic stabilized guns, sights, 40,000 years of advanced engineering and weapons that literally travel at the speed of light, and you're telling me, that this aircraft is less capable of staying on target than a tank?. Furthermore, you're telling me that a guy on the ground with a rifle is a better shot than a trained combat pilot when against other flyers? The vendetta is not a dedicated air to air fighter, but it's still going to be nominally better at taking out other flyers with similar flight characteristics than a guy on the ground.
Oh yeah, also why does a supersonic jet get to capture objectives?
Flyers in this edition make me so mad
Flyers in 40k are just bad. They aren't viable in the type of gameplay that is 40k. They are all abstractions because if you play them in a semi simulation form they are just implayable.
8th aren't worse from a simulation standpoint than 7th. But at least are more consistent with the rest of how the game works.
They are just normal vehicles now with a special rule called Fly and minimal movement? Nice! Thats the only way you can make Flyers work in this game.
Plus, this is a game where people fight with sci-fi ranged weapons at meele range like if this was a Napoleonic War.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm actually okay with flamers hitting fliers.
The fliers don't actually fly above the cloudline, like people seem to think. They fly low and slowly (for them) because hitting a dude from a mile in the air while moving at the speed of sound is REALLY hard.
All the flamer dude has to do is point his gun up and fire into the air to make a wall of flame that might damage systems or whatever or make the pilot spaz out because he suddenly has to avoid a superheated fireball.
Have you ever flown an airplane? 1,000 feet AGL is the typical lowest safe altitude in general aviation. Furthermore the cloud ceiling is usually more than 3,500 feet AGL as well, and only goes lower on really cloudy and rainy days.
The longest range flamethrower to my knowledge is the m132 armored flamethrower, which has a range of 200 meters, (or about 600 feet).
This is a typical a10 strafing run Look at his relative speed in relation to the tree tops, further more look at his altitude, which appears to be more than 500 feet at its lowest.
Using this data tell me how this makes logical sense?
On a different note, an aircraft should not be affected by moving..... Aircraft are ridiculously steady platforms given the speed at which they travel. Even a pinky general aviation aircraft can remain relatively straight as long as there isn't a big ole cross wind. An aircraft with a sophisticated fly by wire system, gyroscopic stabilized guns, sights, 40,000 years of advanced engineering and weapons that literally travel at the speed of light, and you're telling me, that this aircraft is less capable of staying on target than a tank?. Furthermore, you're telling me that a guy on the ground with a rifle is a better shot than a trained combat pilot when against other flyers? The vendetta is not a dedicated air to air fighter, but it's still going to be nominally better at taking out other flyers with similar flight characteristics than a guy on the ground.
Oh yeah, also why does a supersonic jet get to capture objectives?
Flyers in this edition make me so mad
Flyers in 40k are just bad. They aren't viable in the type of gameplay that is 40k. They are all abstractions because if you play them in a semi simulation form they are just implayable.
8th aren't worse from a simulation standpoint than 7th. But at least are more consistent with the rest of how the game works.
They are just normal vehicles now with a special rule called Fly and minimal movement? Nice! Thats the only way you can make Flyers work in this game.
Plus, this is a game where people fight with sci-fi ranged weapons at meele range like if this was a Napoleonic War.
So you're ok with a system that penalizes flyers for...... flying? A vendetta is now best used as a stationary gun platform. For all intents and purposes it is a tank. That is neither engaging, nor fun.
I play as a way to forge my own narratives, stories, and mental pictures. When flyers are better off staying still, or getting shot down by people with flame throwers, that aspect of the game becomes compromised.
I'll be better with a system without flyers. Or flyers being markers on the map.
But they are here to stay, and I doubht that people is gonna be happy with flyers being just a thing that you put at the side of the board and say "My Flyer do a attack in this line" and every model in that line receive an attack when you move the model on a straitgh line doing flying sounds with your mouth, because thats the only way to use flyers in any realistic way in how 40k gameplay fuction.
I'm fine with Flyers being lighter and more movile tanks for gameplay purposes with some restrictions to what can attack them in meele, yes.
You can adress the flame throwers problem very easy. The rest fo me is totally fine.
Plus all of this "Lowest safe altitude" did you saw The Force Awakens? Flyers in sci-fi don't work like real flyers. Many times they literally TOUCH the water or land behind them. Warhammer flyers, in the fantasy consistence of the universe work that way. Just look at any drawing with flyers and ground troops.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
They are literally shooting themselves at POINT BLANK with a heavy bolter! FFS! Put all realism aside and just embrace the sillines of the warhammer universe when talking about this kind of things.
My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).
I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.
Elbows wrote: My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).
I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.
Actually sounds kind of cool. You've got a Beastmaster Kabalite sending his hordes of highly trained flocks to try and tear apart a large contingency of Tau Drones.
Though I have to wonder.. Does everyone just always fire on Overcharge? It sounds like everyone keeps popping it off no matter the situation. It's not like S7 AP-3 is a bad thing..
The real issue is that by itself, flockspam can bog the game down in way too many die rolls.
10 Flocks is 70 points. You make 80 rolls to hit, averaging 40 rolls to wound, for an average of slighly over 6 saving throws. 120 attack rolls for 70 points.
When you add a Beastmaster, that becomes 80 rolls to hit, and 40 rerolls, averaging 60 rolls to wound for 10 saving throws. 180 attack rolls for 70 points and the Beastmaster Support. Add Doom, you get to reroll to-wound for another 50 dice, for 230 attack rolls on a 70-point unit.
Elbows wrote: My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).
I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.
Basically this:
So the Genosians are using those droid fighters, and the Republic are using shuttles and strategic bombers. I'm not sure how that applies to his "Only shuttles and troop transports"
Elbows wrote: My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).
I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.
Basically this:
It's still a bit daft to have shuttles and flying transports in a game that rarely lasts past seven turns. They made it better in 8th because Flyers start on the board but each flyer is still massively different from each other and GW just won't put the time into making them work properly.
Player1: I will shoot at that 12' tall lava monster called the Avatar
Player2: You can't.
P1: Why not? It out in the open!
P2: I flew my Swooping Hawks to land 12" behind your firing unit, and the Avvy is 13" away.
P1: Y you do dis!?
==== Some time later ====
P2: I shoot your 12' tall Dreadnought
P1: Nu-uh, he's standing behind some Terminators!
P2: Doesn't matter.
That's funny! I feel for the marine player a lot right now! but funny
Elbows wrote: My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).
I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.
Aren't the Vendetta, Valkyrie, Stormraven, Thunderhawk, Night Scythe, etc. all troop transport gunships?
And most of the rest are either VTOL gunships, like the Vulture, or dive bombers, like the Blitz Bomma, for close air support.
There are a few air supremacy fighters and the Marauder bomber, but it does seem that most of the planes are planes that could logically be participating in a firefight.
Now, whether the mechanics portray the aircraft with any remote sense of realism is another matter entirely
"Hyper position" heavy bolters on bastions existing as a perfect metaphor for the ramifications of the loss of fire arcs.
Keeping random game length in a game that often seems incredibly decisive by turn 3.
Sicaran's being able to see invisible models because bespoke fly keyword jervis karate chop!
Trading difficult decisions and tense important rolls with endless rolling and anticlimactic arbitrary health bars that melt every weapon and its intended logics into a sort of warm tapioca of mediocrity.
flyers with the ability to bomb units they flew over in the movement phase bombing other flyers then also shooting them with all their forward facings weapons from the tip of their rear vertical stabilizer because reasons
Laser banners! (cue 80's metal guitar riff)
Literally any model unable to charge another model or unit due to physical impossibility of base being within 1 inch base to base due to terrain.
Keyword infantry arbitrarily being able to melt through ruins but everyone else having to obey physics with the exception of units with keyword fly because they essentially teleport because actual pathing might be interesting.
A massive incentive gap for weapon strength (a gully of sorts) while also handing out -1 ap to far too many weapons
Understanding concepts like 2D3 or 3D3 for weapon output while also forgetting them, saying what the hell and doing D6 for incredibly iconic and often points laden weaponry.
Putting out so much 2 and 3 damage weapons as to make a mockery of expensive elite infantry that aren't a total bargain. Why take dev centurions when scion command squads exist and the army construction rules allows me to take them?
The Harlequin's Flip-Belt is a technological marvel of such grace that only the most advanced civilisation could have made it. Luckily, Harlequins belong to the most advanced civilisation in the universe. The Flip-Belt's mechanisms are a closely guarded secret of the Black Library, but it is known that it allows its user to temporarily defy gravity by jumping. This is what enables the Harlequins to perform death-defying acrobatics on the battlefield - often jumping over enemy defences and entrenched troops.
The maximum capabilities of this belt are unknown, as it has recently become apparent to Imperial Scholars that it is possible for a Harlequin to do a quintuple-backflip over a skyscraper, so long as that skyscraper is only a few meters wide or deep, and regardless of whether this skyscraper reaches to the roof of a cavern. As it turns out, the limitations provided by height or ceilings means nothing to Flip-Belt technology, and Imperial Scholars are considering reclassifyiing the Flip-Belt as a teleportation device.
Intruder wrote: It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.
Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.
Why is it blowing up?
-4 to hit. That's only if you overcharge it though . If you don't overcharge you still miss no matter what you roll.
Holy wtf?
I didn't know things were that bad.
Gw needs to distinguish natural ones from modified.
What a cluster
They do, it's just that all the overheating rules don't say they only happened on natural 1s.
There are other abilities and rolls that do require a natural roll (like the one where natural 1s To Hit/Wound/Save always fail).
Because he is an Unstoppable Revenant :O , a Wraithknight does not even fear to step over enemy INFANTRY units, but respectfully steps back from Necron Scarabs or Ripper swarms.
Intruder wrote: It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.
Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.
Why is it blowing up?
-4 to hit. That's only if you overcharge it though . If you don't overcharge you still miss no matter what you roll.
Holy wtf?
I didn't know things were that bad.
Gw needs to distinguish natural ones from modified.
What a cluster
They do, it's just that all the overheating rules don't say they only happened on natural 1s.
There are other abilities and rolls that do require a natural roll (like the one where natural 1s To Hit/Wound/Save always fail).
Correct me if Im wrong but Ive not seen a rule that says the lowest you can roll is a 1? So 0, -1, -2 although misses, dont overheat?
secretForge wrote: Correct me if Im wrong but Ive not seen a rule that says the lowest you can roll is a 1? So 0, -1, -2 although misses, dont overheat?
Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.
secretForge wrote: Correct me if Im wrong but Ive not seen a rule that says the lowest you can roll is a 1? So 0, -1, -2 although misses, dont overheat?
Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.
Speaking of modifiers, with Modifiers in the Psychic Phase, how do doubles work?
Two ones but one is modified to a two?
A roll of two but a modifier has turned a two to a one?
Dakka Wolf wrote: Speaking of modifiers, with Modifiers in the Psychic Phase, how do doubles work?
Two ones but one is modified to a two?
A roll of two but a modifier has turned a two to a one?
Yvraine's ability add 1 to the result of psychic tests.
The psychic test's result is the sum of the two dice, so adding one to the sum doesn't change the results of any of the dice, and therefore doesn't affect perils.
You perils on double ones, or double 6s, not on a psychic test of 2 or 12.
Other abilities might be worded differently though.
Sicaran's being able to see invisible models because bespoke fly keyword jervis karate chop!
Can someone translate this? I have no clue what it is saying at all.
The Accelerator Autocannon suffers no to-hit penalties when targeting models with the Fly Keyword. The key being that it suffers no to-hit penalties of any kind whatsoever, be it firing on the move, nightfight, a Ghostkeel's Electrowarfare Suite, etc.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Speaking of modifiers, with Modifiers in the Psychic Phase, how do doubles work?
Two ones but one is modified to a two?
A roll of two but a modifier has turned a two to a one?
Yvraine's ability add 1 to the result of psychic tests.
The psychic test's result is the sum of the two dice, so adding one to the sum doesn't change the results of any of the dice, and therefore doesn't affect perils.
You perils on double ones, or double 6s, not on a psychic test of 2 or 12.
Other abilities might be worded differently though.
Thanks.
It's good to get an opinion from someone whose eyes don't glaze over when I bring up the psychic phase.
Intruder wrote: It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.
Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.
I am sorry but this is not a silly rules issue. This is a bad player issue.
You know that moving your heavy weapon in night-fight is taking a massive nerf to hit(to the point where you litteraly cannot hit), so first off: why are you having the model fire it at all? Second: why TF are you firing it on unsafe mode? The ghostkeel is already getting wounded on a 3+ from normal safe mode.
All weapons that can overheat' aside from Ork mega-weapons, have a safe mode(and that is proper Orky) when your model is going to be effected by negative modifiers you fire your weapon on safe mode. If you do not; then it is you who are daft, not the rules.
Don't you find it just a bit weird that Plasma is more likely to explode at night? Fluffwise it makes no sense. Crunchwise, I don't ever recall Plasma being broken for 7th ed, and everyone took Grav instead. Guess what, Grav Cannons are still the superior option this edition.
Warning fluff and realistic explanation to follow:
On the move bs - makes sense for heavy weapons; they are meant to be static emplacements, not combat rifles. For the overheat issue, moving and firing the man-portable plasma cannon means your marine has not taken the time to properly set-up when he starts supercharging. His impatience is more likely to blow up in his face.
Night-fight and stealth tech: both, alone, mean that the marine is more focused on trying to aim at his target. He is not paying attention to the indicators(or they may be turned off/on a low-light setting to reduce chances that he is seenand shot at) so he can draw a better bead on his target. This makes supercharging at those targets far more dangerous, and shouldn't be done.
Effects that blind and disorient: see night-fight and stealth tech, but this time he cannot see or is too distracted to pay attention to indicators.
Final note: plasma indicators may already always have the needle buried in the red when supercharging (we do not have the fluff on this); therefore it may be up to the operator to "feel" his weapon. When focusing on targets that are more difficult to hit to begin with(- to hit roll modifiers) he has lost focus on feeling for the weapon's critical point.
One last thing: a properly trained and disciplined soldier is not going to be firing on supercharge when the conditions are more likely to have his weapon explode, he would only do this if he panics(or for Orks just doesn't care).
Trading difficult decisions and tense important rolls with endless rolling and anticlimactic arbitrary health bars that melt every weapon and its intended logics into a sort of warm tapioca of mediocrity.
I'm glad of this. More consistent performance means more emphasis on strategy and tactics, and less on winning 2 lucky rolls on turn 1 and crippling your opponents army.
DanielFM wrote: Shooting at night is considerably more stressful than doing it by daylight. The same for stationary vs moving. Overheating not only include mechanical but human failure. See? Took two minutes to make sense out of it
It took two minutes to create a fluff justification. Doesn't change the fact that Plasma Guns detonating more often at night or when firing at specific types of targets is an unintended consequence of a badly written rule needs to be reversed immediately.
Stress is hardly likely to cause a fatal injury from aiming.
Unless you , ya know, aim it at your self by accident and shoot yourself......I dunno, while running, in the dark, carrying a blinding bright weapon that emits the same stuff the sun does..... What could go wrong with running, in the dark, with a weapon that fires barley contained sun jets?
Slave wrote: Unless you , ya know, aim it at your self by accident and shoot yourself......I dunno, while running, in the dark, carrying a blinding bright weapon that emits the same stuff the sun does..... What could go wrong with running, in the dark, with a weapon that fires barley contained sun jets?
Pretty sure a geneforged supersoldier in half a ton of self stabilising and strength enhancing armour could handle that.
Slave wrote: Unless you , ya know, aim it at your self by accident and shoot yourself......I dunno, while running, in the dark, carrying a blinding bright weapon that emits the same stuff the sun does..... What could go wrong with running, in the dark, with a weapon that fires barley contained sun jets?
Pretty sure a geneforged supersoldier in half a ton of self stabilising and strength enhancing armour could handle that.
And They Shall Know No Fear, But They Shall Accidentally Press The "Don't Press Dat" Button!
Yeah, for everyone complaining about the overheat modifiers - you know that you don't HAVE to overcharge it, right? You can completely avoid the overheat, and against many targets, you don't need it overcharge it.
Learn to balance your risks against the rewards and accept the tactical situation before calling GW stupid. As many have said above, it makes perfect sense that in bad conditions, there may be more chance of something mishapping.
Moving with a heavy weapon would cause a lack of focus, or might fumble.
Night fighting would cause the soldier to be focusing on finding their target, and may be unable to see the warning signs on their weapon.
Stealth tech would make the soldier focus on seeing the target rather than their weapon.
Flamethrowers don't work in overwatch if the assaulting unit assaults from 8.0000000001" away but do from 7.9999999999" away. Obviously the extra time it takes for the enemy to reach you gives them performance anxiety.
Or perhaps surprise that the enemy could get you from that far away. Considering the Average charge is going to be 7 sans modifiers (2D6 nets an average result of 7) I think Flamers are just fine.
Ever been in a defensive position? There is no way that excuse works when you know the enemy is there, and if you didn't then you wouldn't get overwatch anyway. I get they did it simply for rules clarity, but it is patently stupid from any other standpoint. It would not have been hard to add a line for flame weapons to say they may always fire overwatch regardless the distance from the charging unit.
A Land Raider that is 50% obscured and inside terrain gets +1 to it's save, but if it's 99% obscured and even a single ℓP outside of the area terrain, no save bonus.
So drive that extra half an inch. It won't kill you.
Meh, I don't buy that argument. How hard would it be to simply say 50% obscured grants cover?
Cataphractii Terminators, lumbering literal behemoths unable to move faster than a brisk stroll suddenly TRIPLE in speed when there is something to punch way over there!
Amazing what momentum does.
Seems a bit of a stretch there, but whatever.
The usual complaint that there are so many re-roll miss auras but you can't take into account modifiers BEFORE re-rolling.
Suddenly you have to think about firing modes, positioning, what powers to try and deny - I know the influx of actual decisions to be made from 6th and 7th's potato modes must be a bit much for you.
Well, if you can't tell how stupid it is to have one value for the first iteration and another for the final result then it's you who's the potato. It really is amazing the excuses people come up with to justify silly rules, but oh well.
A couple other bits of idiocy in 8th:
- vehicles being locked in combat period. I have friends who are tankers. There's no way they wouldn't just drive over infantry in front of them if need be, firing all the way. I seem to recall several wars were fought where we did just that.
- vehicles not being able to shoot at units they are engaged with. Again, that's why anti-infantry weapons exist in the first place.
- Maelstrom objectives are still nothing but "chase the shiny". Won't be using them much without a few house rules.
Most of the other stuff I've noticed in 8th so far seems okay, barring a few recent FAQ answers like Skarbrand affecting Airborne units and Necrons vs Poxwalkers potentially generating two models. Why they couldn't simply have them make sense instead of opting for the ridiculous I have no idea.
Might want to read the rules... nothing is really locked in combat. Your vehicle can just drive away on the next turn. If it does so, it forfeits shooting and assault the next turn (tradeoff for balance sake). They also can attack in close combat. This reflects the anti infantry weapons you spoke of.
Not shooting at an engaged infantry unit? Let's see an abrams level it's large cannon at something within two feet of it... can't do it. Again it ads realism and balance. Many tanks have serious firepower in this edition.
Everything seems very balanced in this edition so far and more realistic (shoot at what you want, assault what you want, walk away from assaults, etc).
455_PWR wrote: Might want to read the rules... nothing is really locked in combat.
Might want to check the attitude. Infantry stops tanks from shooting for a turn. Seems pretty silly, especially if you did read the rules. And I'm pretty sure Gary read them, since he references that.
I played against a tank and got into combat with it. It overwatched. It retreated. Other units shot my guys up a bit but I had a few left, so they charged the tank again. It overwatched.
This is exactly how it should be. When you're a tank driver and infantry get that close to the tank, you have no way to know what kind of anti-tank weapons they have or what they might do. The guy controlling the anti personel weapons will do what he can, but you're not acting like business as usual. Get out of there, let your supporting units take out the threat.
This is not a "makes no sense" issue at all.
Also, for the shooting characters when there's a unit in the opposite direction, doesn't the movement phase come before the shooting phase? And can't you measure anything you want? So can't you measure a couple of points and make sure the closest model in the unit to the character is the one that is a fraction of an inch closer? Even if you're in a defensive position I bet you can still jigger things around to get the shot.
The plasma overheating with penalties also seems like a player choice issue as well. It represents shutting off all the safety features of the weapon, so naturally anything that causes difficulty in hitting a target you want dead desperately enough to risk your own life is going to increase the chance of a mishap.
Reserves counting as destroyed in matched play and then complaining about it in narrative terms is just hilarious. If narrative concerns are your priority, there's a way to play just for that which doesn't have the counts as destroyed rule (and will give better game play, anyone who has just done the matched play scenarios should really try the narrative ones, they're better).
Every wargame is an abstraction and will have "that doesn't make sense" moments. The question for each individual is what breaks it for them.
455_PWR wrote: Might want to read the rules... nothing is really locked in combat.
Might want to check the attitude. Infantry stops tanks from shooting for a turn. Seems pretty silly, especially if you did read the rules. And I'm pretty sure Gary read them, since he references that.
Why is it silly when you have infantry crawling over a tank shooting guns into ports/optics?
455_PWR wrote: Might want to read the rules... nothing is really locked in combat.
Might want to check the attitude. Infantry stops tanks from shooting for a turn. Seems pretty silly, especially if you did read the rules. And I'm pretty sure Gary read them, since he references that.
Why is it silly when you have infantry crawling over a tank shooting guns into ports/optics?
I'm with this guy, it's remarkably hard to aim a tank's weapons at somebody when they're literally sitting on them or swinging from them - it's also very difficult to back away and disengage from an enemy who are literally crawling all over your tank because you know, when the tank rolls, they ride.
I think being stuck when you're surrounded is just the simple simulation that just saved GW having to make a list of possibilities dependent on numbers and size of the engaged models.
Play Tester one "Two spores just stopped my Land Raider!"
Designer "Well yeah, that's pretty stupid but a Daemon Prince on either end could probably do it."
Play Tester one "Yeah, but that's two units of monsters."
Designer "Good Point."
Play Tester two "A unit of Terminators might stop it as well."
Designer "Too hard bin. Just imagine the Spores covered the front and back viewports and it's too dangerous to drive the Land Raider."
I would like to see a tank's main weapon like the Razorback's twin Heavy Bolter still able to fire out of melee but not into it but that would bring its own pile of troubles.
455_PWR wrote: Might want to read the rules... nothing is really locked in combat.
Might want to check the attitude. Infantry stops tanks from shooting for a turn. Seems pretty silly, especially if you did read the rules. And I'm pretty sure Gary read them, since he references that.
Why is it silly when you have infantry crawling over a tank shooting guns into ports/optics?
I'm with this guy, it's remarkably hard to aim a tank's weapons at somebody when they're literally sitting on them or swinging from them - it's also very difficult to back away and disengage from an enemy who are literally crawling all over your tank because you know, when the tank rolls, they ride.
I think being stuck when you're surrounded is just the simple simulation that just saved GW having to make a list of possibilities dependent on numbers and size of the engaged models.
Play Tester one "Two spores just stopped my Land Raider!"
Designer "Well yeah, that's pretty stupid but a Daemon Prince on either end could probably do it."
Play Tester one "Yeah, but that's two units of monsters."
Designer "Good Point."
Play Tester two "A unit of Terminators might stop it as well."
Designer "Too hard bin. Just imagine the Spores covered the front and back viewports and it's too dangerous to drive the Land Raider."
I would like to see a tank's main weapon like the Razorback's twin Heavy Bolter still able to fire out of melee but not into it but that would bring its own pile of troubles.
Would of been a nice option like the titanic stuff but at a modifier.
like they are still shaking crap off. modifiers would allow a lot more situations to happen. i think its ok for now and a bit over blown at times (ok a LOT)
i think the only real thing i have a problem with is terrain being so meh.
a forest shouldn't give you as much protection as a 20 foot thick reinforced concrete wall.
Lol, ok? There was no attitude, just facts. If you get offended that easy then online forums are not for you. I just told him to read the rules as what he posted was not in the rules (and if you read my post, stated the same about losing shooting/assault in the next turn).
If you reread his post, he said it's ridiculous vehicles get locked in combat... the rules don't state that thus my comment about reading the rules. Nothing sarcastic or attacking there... just the facts Bot everything has attitude in it, but inaccurate statements will be corrected online as the world is watching.
If making real world arguments, tanks are far from invulnerable. Infantry next to you is bad (grenades, explosives, hatches). Most tank drivers would drive away, which takes away from shooting or attacking back.
Nah, you read sloppy and got smart, now you're doubling down. Whatever. If moving really stopped a tank from shooting it would be in big trouble. If 2 DP are dp-ing a tank, it's probably not getting a chance to drive away. If 2 grots are doing the same, it's silly.
I like 8th a lot. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.
MagicJuggler wrote: The fact that you can have vehicles simultaneously hit and miss each other. Or the fact that you cannot assault flyers because they're out of reach, but you cannot move past them because it violates the 1" rule, turning them into a You Shall Not Pass wall versus models that cannot fly. Oh, and then there's this anecdote (and remember, Valkyries have Hover Jet).
I don't get it. "Couldn't fall back because it was already at the edge of the board"? Falling back in this edition doesn't mean moving toward the nearest board edge. It just means you make a move and you have to end up more than 1" away from any enemy models.
MagicJuggler wrote: The fact that you can have vehicles simultaneously hit and miss each other. Or the fact that you cannot assault flyers because they're out of reach, but you cannot move past them because it violates the 1" rule, turning them into a You Shall Not Pass wall versus models that cannot fly. Oh, and then there's this anecdote (and remember, Valkyries have Hover Jet).
I don't get it. "Couldn't fall back because it was already at the edge of the board"? Falling back in this edition doesn't mean moving toward the nearest board edge. It just means you make a move and you have to end up more than 1" away from any enemy models.
He must of gotten cornered REALLY bad
like he had a unit of tanks sitting literally on the corner and then had a flyer zoom over there and assault it with its fairly fast hover mode + charge. and there must of been like a building next to it boxing it in
455_PWR wrote: Might want to read the rules... nothing is really locked in combat.
Might want to check the attitude. Infantry stops tanks from shooting for a turn. Seems pretty silly, especially if you did read the rules. And I'm pretty sure Gary read them, since he references that.
Why is it silly when you have infantry crawling over a tank shooting guns into ports/optics?
I'm with this guy, it's remarkably hard to aim a tank's weapons at somebody when they're literally sitting on them or swinging from them - it's also very difficult to back away and disengage from an enemy who are literally crawling all over your tank because you know, when the tank rolls, they ride.
I think being stuck when you're surrounded is just the simple simulation that just saved GW having to make a list of possibilities dependent on numbers and size of the engaged models.
Play Tester one "Two spores just stopped my Land Raider!"
Designer "Well yeah, that's pretty stupid but a Daemon Prince on either end could probably do it."
Play Tester one "Yeah, but that's two units of monsters."
Designer "Good Point."
Play Tester two "A unit of Terminators might stop it as well."
Designer "Too hard bin. Just imagine the Spores covered the front and back viewports and it's too dangerous to drive the Land Raider."
I would like to see a tank's main weapon like the Razorback's twin Heavy Bolter still able to fire out of melee but not into it but that would bring its own pile of troubles.
Would of been a nice option like the titanic stuff but at a modifier.
like they are still shaking crap off. modifiers would allow a lot more situations to happen. i think its ok for now and a bit over blown at times (ok a LOT)
i think the only real thing i have a problem with is terrain being so meh.
a forest shouldn't give you as much protection as a 20 foot thick reinforced concrete wall.
Totally agree.
It's like those comics where the commander is praising a bush as the camuflage unit then sees the real camuflage unit and they're just a bunch of scrubs with sticks attached to their helmets.
"That stick is honesly good protection Commander!"
Sledgehammer wrote: So you're ok with a system that penalizes flyers for...... flying? A vendetta is now best used as a stationary gun platform. For all intents and purposes it is a tank. That is neither engaging, nor fun.
I play as a way to forge my own narratives, stories, and mental pictures. When flyers are better off staying still, or getting shot down by people with flame throwers, that aspect of the game becomes compromised.
If your flyers are getting shot down by flamers, maybe you should be moving them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, for everyone complaining about the overheat modifiers - you know that you don't HAVE to overcharge it, right? You can completely avoid the overheat, and against many targets, you don't need it overcharge it./quote]
If your flyers are getting shot down by flamers, maybe you should be moving them.
Bloat drones. Yeah.
They have fly for the same reason jump pack marines do. The flamer is somewhat justified working well on them. They're just sort of hovering around poorly. It's on things like a stormhawk that it's silly that the strongest weapon against it is a flamer. Note I'm not saying best, because an 8" range is never gonna be the best weapon against something with that kind of movement.
- vehicles being locked in combat period. I have friends who are tankers. There's no way they wouldn't just drive over infantry in front of them if need be, firing all the way. I seem to recall several wars were fought where we did just that. "
That's a quote of the post. I replied with the rules from the core book, just the facts (vehicles can leave combat in 8th edition if they want, they are not locked in combat). Not sloppy reading, you can expect educated members to fact check online posts. Others were able to read the posts and decipher them correctly, its not that hard.
Xmbk, I see you only recently joined and your posts seem only provacative towards veteran members... time to get back on subject perhaps before a mod gets involved here (unless you are just a troll, but the community doesn't need that crap).
Back on subject, I do see the argument about flamers and fliers. Fliers aren't skimmers, hard to see a flamer hit a fast moving jet. Yet another thing brought in only for balance, but definitely defies realism.
Yeah flamers being great at anti-air is the one real head scratcher in the rules. I would have suggested that you roll to hit with flamers vs. models with the Fly keyword, but then that would also include jump infantry. I think the reason it is in there is because they couldn't think of a decent compromise without writing an overcomplicated rule.
The other one - which is a far less important issue - is that you can't fire overwatch if out of range. This seems odd to me - I understand if the chargers are out of sight (surprise attack) but when running straight at you, it just doesn't make sense. At the very least, pistols should always be able to overwatch.
Yeah flamers being great at anti-air is the one real head scratcher in the rules. I would have suggested that you roll to hit with flamers vs. models with the Fly keyword, but then that would also include jump infantry.
The games weaponry is already all kinda way too flexible but just the idea of a flamethrower being more effective than a lascannon or meltagun is just stupid. Equally as silly as artillery being the go to AA.
I think the reason it is in there is because they couldn't think of a decent compromise without writing an overcomplicated rule.
I somehow picture robin cruddace at the bottom of a well with jervis yelling "it gives the marketing team what it wants or it gets the hose again".
Umbros wrote: The other one - which is a far less important issue - is that you can't fire overwatch if out of range. This seems odd to me - I understand if the chargers are out of sight (surprise attack) but when running straight at you, it just doesn't make sense.
The surprise attack angle can be just as silly. Landraider rolls up, dudes disembark out of los. Not exactly inconspicuous.
A flamer is better at killing a plane flying a mile up and moving at mach 7 than it is killing unarmoured bugs in a ditch.
Do you have math to back that up? Because a flyer has on average 12 wounds, T6 and a 3+ save. Unarmored bugs have a 5+ save in cover, 1 wound and T3.
If you are losing flyers to flamers regularly, you are doing something wrong.
A flamer is better at killing a plane flying a mile up and moving at mach 7 than it is killing unarmoured bugs in a ditch.
Do you have math to back that up? Because a flyer has on average 12 wounds, T6 and a 3+ save. Unarmored bugs have a 5+ save in cover, 1 wound and T3.
If you are losing flyers to flamers regularly, you are doing something wrong.
It isn't. He has misunderstood the actual problem. The problem is that a flamer, disregarding the fact that it should basically never be able to reach if you play that mach 7 flier right, can put more wounds on the flier per points cost of the flamer as compared to a more traditional anti-air weapon.
A flamer is better at killing a plane flying a mile up and moving at mach 7 than it is killing unarmoured bugs in a ditch.
Do you have math to back that up? Because a flyer has on average 12 wounds, T6 and a 3+ save. Unarmored bugs have a 5+ save in cover, 1 wound and T3.
If you are losing flyers to flamers regularly, you are doing something wrong.
Regular flamers are less efficient than Lascannons for HP removal. It's still silly that it's possible. That said, the Inferno Cannon averages more wounds than a Lascannon versus such vehicles, simply because it has D2.
The sad thing is this is still probably a better job for either flamer instead of cover-flushing or horde control, since flamers no longer ignore cover (so one Flamer vs Marines in a Forest = Nothing), and you can avoid Overwatch vs Flamers by charging from farther away.
A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.
Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"
A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.
Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"
Back-talk like that will buy you a one way ticket to the Commissar's office, Guardsman!
A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.
Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?" Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie." Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-" Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"
Back-talk like that will buy you a one way ticket to the Commissar's office, Guardsman!
Close-minded leadership like that is a one-way ticket to our collective graves, sir!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Look, zombies are scary, m'kay? Do you want Night of the Living dead to happen, because not killing zombies is how you get NotLD to happen.
Why can't we be friends with the differently-alive?
A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.
Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"
Back-talk like that will buy you a one way ticket to the Commissar's office, Guardsman!
Close-minded leadership like that is a one-way ticket to our collective graves, sir!
Everyone pay attention to Private Selym here, he will now demonstrate how to correctly catch a Boltpistol Bolt with our teeth. *BLAM*
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit. This is the dumbest rule I have ever heard about in any game ever.
A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.
Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"
Back-talk like that will buy you a one way ticket to the Commissar's office, Guardsman!
Close-minded leadership like that is a one-way ticket to our collective graves, sir!
Everyone pay attention to Private Selym here, he will now demonstrate how to correctly catch a Boltpistol Bolt with our teeth. *BLAM*
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.
Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.
"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"
"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"
On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.
Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
Let's recap. Have I ever said anything offensive to you directly to warrant such blatant insult? Or could it be that you simply are really really in love with 8th edition? Or that other people might find the new rules akin something that might be more suited for recess or pre school. Anyway HOW was quoting a previous humorous comment and reciprocating their idea trolling?
You literally make no sense and I would ask you politely to stop the character assault
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.
Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.
"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"
"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"
On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.
Exactly this is why I will not play 8th. Also I don't understand that mentality at all. When people hate something that used to be great. Like the ability to shoot at your chosen target or at least at unit you want to. How do you get off calling them a troll? No one is trolling when they dislike something and express an opinion this whole thread is based on that idea.
ForceChoke wrote: Let's recap. Have I ever said anything offensive to you directly to warrant such blatant insult? Or could it be that you simply are really really in love with 8th edition? And that other people might find the new rules akin something that might be more suited for recess or pre school. Anyway HOW was quoting a previous humors comment and reciprocating their idea trolling?
You literally make no sense and I would ask you politely to stop the character assault
Also please don't respond.
It was more to do with the fact that you quite blatantly overacted to a mechanic which isn't really that bad.
1. Every edition before 8th allowed you to hide characters in units anyway so that you couldn't shoot them.
2. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of reason to move slightly closer to the character so that you can shoot it.
3. We have split fire now, so say one poxwalker can be easily dealt with using a few shots allowing the rest of your squad to open fire on the Lord.
This edition is unfortunetly not as easy as point and click to win.
Also "please don't respond"? And your trying to convince me you aren't a troll?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MagicJuggler wrote: To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.
"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"
"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"
People are making this mechanic out to be way more powerful than it actually is, I've played people who tried to do these kind of exploits and it isn't hard at all to counter.
ForceChoke wrote: Let's recap. Have I ever said anything offensive to you directly to warrant such blatant insult? Or could it be that you simply are really really in love with 8th edition? And that other people might find the new rules akin something that might be more suited for recess or pre school. Anyway HOW was quoting a previous humors comment and reciprocating their idea trolling?
You literally make no sense and I would ask you politely to stop the character assault
Also please don't respond.
It was more to do with the fact that you quite blatantly overacted to a mechanic which isn't really that bad.
1. Every edition before 8th allowed you to hide characters in units anyway so that you couldn't shoot them.
2. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of reason to move slightly closer to the character so that you can shoot it.
3. We have split fire now, so say one poxwalker can be easily dealt with using a few shots allowing the rest of your squad to open fire on the Lord.
This edition is unfortunetly not as easy as point and click to win.
Also "please don't respond"? And your trying to convince me you aren't a troll?
I'm trying to say that I find your insults not worth my time and entirely off the mark. Please stop thank you. A very succinct request. I don't wish to engage with a one sided insulting narrative. Thank you.
It sounds bad on paper but it's really not in game. It's just fun to make fun of.
The characters don't join units anymore, so they need some measure of protection, otherwise only the hardiest of characters would even be playable.
They are typically force multipliers that add a lot of depth to the game, and you have to be very careful with them, because as soon as they, personally, are the closest model to an enemy, they can absolutely be targeted and shot to hell. So you need to have your character protected from deep strike possibilities as well as from the front.
Also snipers are a thing if you really don't like characters. I tried out a list a couple days ago that has a bastion full of sniper fire. They downed a character in each of the first two turns.
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.
Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.
"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"
"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"
On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.
Exactly this is why I will not play 8th. Also I don't understand that mentality at all. When people hate something that used to be great. Like the ability to shoot at your chosen target or at least at unit you want to. How do you get off calling them a troll? No one is trolling when they dislike something and express an opinion this whole thread is based on that idea.
Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
ForceChoke wrote: Let's recap. Have I ever said anything offensive to you directly to warrant such blatant insult? Or could it be that you simply are really really in love with 8th edition? And that other people might find the new rules akin something that might be more suited for recess or pre school. Anyway HOW was quoting a previous humors comment and reciprocating their idea trolling?
You literally make no sense and I would ask you politely to stop the character assault
Also please don't respond.
It was more to do with the fact that you quite blatantly overacted to a mechanic which isn't really that bad.
1. Every edition before 8th allowed you to hide characters in units anyway so that you couldn't shoot them.
2. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of reason to move slightly closer to the character so that you can shoot it.
3. We have split fire now, so say one poxwalker can be easily dealt with using a few shots allowing the rest of your squad to open fire on the Lord.
This edition is unfortunetly not as easy as point and click to win.
Also "please don't respond"? And your trying to convince me you aren't a troll?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MagicJuggler wrote: To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.
"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"
"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"
People are making this mechanic out to be way more powerful than it actually is, I've played people who tried to do these kind of exploits and it isn't hard at all to counter.
It is not trolling to NOT wish to do something. I don't like putting sand in my eye. Why would I be trolling by not wanting to do it. My friends all started around 3rd and 4th Are not interested in the new rules. It hardly makes us trolls. No one is overreacting. We just don't want to play anymore. Thanks for coming out.
andysonic1 wrote: ...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)
Yeah it's really not that much different from when they were buried in a durable unit. Now all you have to do is get an angle on him where he's the closest. Before he could sit in front of a unit and LOS wounds back to chaff dudes all day anytime a shot came in he personally didn't want to tank. Shoutout to chapter master smashfether.
andysonic1 wrote: ...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)
True! But if you couldn't in 8th they would be removed in one turn to long ranged shooting and every army would require you to bring that long ranged shooting or you would not be competitive and we would just enter the 7th death spiral of "I need this unit to be competitive".
It isn't. He has misunderstood the actual problem. The problem is that a flamer, disregarding the fact that it should basically never be able to reach if you play that mach 7 flier right, can put more wounds on the flier per points cost of the flamer as compared to a more traditional anti-air weapon.
You could say the flamestorm is better than skyhammer and skyspear (against T6), but that's about it and really ignores the difference between 60" and 8".
GW either places higher value on skyhammer, because it comes only on a flyer or they value variable damage more.
Heavy Flamer (17 points) vs T6/7 Flyer 0.6 -- .035 per point
Flamestorm (30 points) vs T6: 2.3 -- .077 per point
Flamestorm (30 points) vs T7: 1.6 -- .053 per point
Icarus Stormcannon (17 points) vs T6: 1.3 -- .076 per point
Icarus Stormcannon (17 points) vs T7: 1 -- .059 per point
Skyhammer (24 points) vs T6: 1.3 -- .054 per point
Skyhammer (24 points) vs T7: 1 -- .042 per point
Skyspear (30 points) vs T6/T7: 1.7 -- .057 per point
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.
Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.
"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"
"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"
On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.
Exactly this is why I will not play 8th. Also I don't understand that mentality at all. When people hate something that used to be great. Like the ability to shoot at your chosen target or at least at unit you want to. How do you get off calling them a troll? No one is trolling when they dislike something and express an opinion this whole thread is based on that idea.
Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
Let's recap The way it was described above seems to be the closer unit... NOT necessarily in front of your HQ I have not read the rules because I am waiting for reviews. And it is not Trolling. But since white knights jump out of the wood work when a new edition comes out, I would probably get further in life sticking a cactus in all my orifices then trying to engage in reasoned discussion.
Slave wrote: Unless you , ya know, aim it at your self by accident and shoot yourself......I dunno, while running, in the dark, carrying a blinding bright weapon that emits the same stuff the sun does..... What could go wrong with running, in the dark, with a weapon that fires barley contained sun jets?
Pretty sure a geneforged supersoldier in half a ton of self stabilising and strength enhancing armour could handle that.
And They Shall Know No Fear, But They Shall Accidentally Press The "Don't Press Dat" Button!
When you say that, why do I think this?
From "Fifth Element".
Let's recap The way it was described above seems to be the closer unit... NOT necessarily in front of your HQ I have not read the rules because I am waiting for reviews. And it is not Trolling. But since white knights jump out of the wood work when a new edition comes out, I would probably get further in life sticking a cactus in all my orifices then trying to engage in reasoned discussion.
You are in no way engaging in reasoned discussion when you say "Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit." and haven't even read or played with the rules.
Either the model is in a place where simply moving will make it the closest target or the other player isn't stupid and has properly hidden the HQ near other units so as to remove nearly any ambiguity.
niv-mizzet wrote: A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.
Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.
Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th
Observe: the troll.
To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.
"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"
"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"
On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.
Exactly this is why I will not play 8th. Also I don't understand that mentality at all. When people hate something that used to be great. Like the ability to shoot at your chosen target or at least at unit you want to. How do you get off calling them a troll? No one is trolling when they dislike something and express an opinion this whole thread is based on that idea.
Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
Let's recap The way it was described above seems to be the closer unit... NOT necessarily in front of your HQ I have not read the rules because I am waiting for reviews. And it is not Trolling. But since white knights jump out of the wood work when a new edition comes out, I would probably get further in life sticking a cactus in all my orifices then trying to engage in reasoned discussion.
Ah, the top most comment was just ambiguous enough to blow everything out of proportions and you were never actually corrected when you asked if this was the actual rule. Well I would suggest reading the rulebook or a leak of the rule book or an engage in a reasoned discussion of the rulebook somewhere that is actually reasonably discussing the rules. You entered a thread about "silly things 8th has brought" which is mostly just "things I disagree with in the rules". You'd find far better discussion in the Tactics section.
ForceChoke wrote:I'm trying to say that I find your insults not worth my time and entirely off the mark. Please stop thank you. A very succinct request. I don't wish to engage with a one sided insulting narrative. Thank you.
Once again, this is why I think your a troll: literally the only 'insult' I sent your way was the "Observe: the troll", when you said you weren't trolling I made an argument as to why the mechanic isn't a reason to not play 8th but then you ignored that and are refusing to give any kind of argument in your defence.
ForceChoke wrote:It is not trolling to NOT wish to do something. I don't like putting sand in my eye. Why would I be trolling by not wanting to do it. My friends all started around 3rd and 4th Are not interested in the new rules. It hardly makes us trolls. No one is overreacting. We just don't want to play anymore. Thanks for coming out.
That's fine enough, you don't want to play, doesn't mean that on a discussion forum we can't discuss why the changes to 40k aren't bad.
ForceChoke wrote:Let's recap The way it was described above seems to be the closer unit... NOT necessarily in front of your HQ I have not read the rules because I am waiting for reviews. And it is not Trolling. But since white knights jump out of the wood work when a new edition comes out, I would probably get further in life sticking a cactus in all my orifices then trying to engage in reasoned discussion.
It is perhaps a silly rule when the two units are on either side of the firing unit but if you actually play the game you realise 1. this kind of situation hardly ever happens and 2. the game is far more balanced because of it.
And no one is jumping out blindly defending 8th ed, we are correcting those who are blindly hating on 8th without even playing it.
andysonic1 wrote: ...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)
(Tbf, those were all exclusively Turn 1 casualties, and were only taken by people who didn't want to win)
andysonic1 wrote: ...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)
(Tbf, those were all exclusively Turn 1 casualties, and were only taken by people who didn't want to win)
andysonic1 wrote: ...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)
(Tbf, those were all exclusively Turn 1 casualties, and were only taken by people who didn't want to win)
I won with them.....
Tbf, whether you won with those units depended on whether your opponant had brought the Rock to your Scissors or whether they had brought paper instead.
andysonic1 wrote: ...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.
(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)
(Tbf, those were all exclusively Turn 1 casualties, and were only taken by people who didn't want to win)
I won with them.....
Tbf, whether you won with those units depended on whether your opponant had brought the Rock to your Scissors or whether they had brought paper instead.
I found "Warhammer 40,000" in the dictionary, and this is what it said:
In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).
In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.
In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).
In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.
Have you played a game of 8th where this was a problem? I've played against DE, DG, IG and Orks and in none of those games was it a problem that I couldn't snipe my opponents characters, it just meant I had to think more tactically about how I split up my shooting/positioned my army.
In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).
In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.
You could hardly snipe them out. You had to hit them with a 6, wound (which failed half the time) and then hope they failed the 2+ LOS! then fail their save. About three times.
In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).
In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.
You could hardly snipe them out. You had to hit them with a 6, wound (which failed half the time) and then hope they failed the 2+ LOS! then fail their save. About three times.
You didn't need Precision Shot for sniping; I usually found with my unit of Horrors was that it was surprisingly easy to choose where my opponent started removing casualties from; it was an oddity of how Brotherhood of Psykers worked but it still led to comedy as I could go "yup, that Gravcannon must roll to save". That said, ironically the best way to snipe out sergeants/heavies was barrage artillery.
MagicJuggler wrote: That said, ironically the best way to snipe out sergeants/heavies was barrage artillery.
That was a massive weakness of 7th core rules and is a massive weakness in 30k. with 8th they address one issue (character sniping) and create 10 more, I mean, the fact that artillery is good AA and it's often impossible to target characters but supersonic jet fighters are an easy target.
In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).
In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.
You could hardly snipe them out. You had to hit them with a 6, wound (which failed half the time) and then hope they failed the 2+ LOS! then fail their save. About three times.
You didn't need Precision Shot for sniping; I usually found with my unit of Horrors was that it was surprisingly easy to choose where my opponent started removing casualties from; it was an oddity of how Brotherhood of Psykers worked but it still led to comedy as I could go "yup, that Gravcannon must roll to save". That said, ironically the best way to snipe out sergeants/heavies was barrage artillery.
My experience was most of the time you did. Important stuff was in the middle.
40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.
Alcibiades wrote: 40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.
Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.
Alcibiades wrote: 40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.
Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.
I dunno about you, but even if the flyers were akin to WWI Triplanes, or jury-rigged Biafra Babies, flamethrowers are still a bit of a stretch regardless!
Alcibiades wrote: 40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.
Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.
I dunno about you, but even if the flyers were akin to WWI Triplanes, or jury-rigged Biafra Babies, flamethrowers are still a bit of a stretch regardless!
Alcibiades wrote: 40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.
Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.
I dunno about you, but even if the flyers were akin to WWI Triplanes, or jury-rigged Biafra Babies, flamethrowers are still a bit of a stretch regardless!
Alcibiades wrote: 40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.
Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.
Absolutely. So the only way to make them make sense is to imagine them as very slow very low flying ground-attack craft, in which case flamers hitting them is perfectly fine,
I dunno about you, but even if the flyers were akin to WWI Triplanes, or jury-rigged Biafra Babies, flamethrowers are still a bit of a stretch regardless!
They're not. WWI Triplanes fly high in the sky. 40K flyers are obviously more helicopter-ish things.
In other words, any flyer that could actually fit in the scale of a 40K game would be logically targetable by a flamer, because these things are obviously not high in the air at all and not very fast, and can't be if they are to interact with the ground stuff..
That real planes don't fly anywhere near this low is another issue. These ones do!
I don't think it's super logical. But it doesn't need to be either.
The value of a weapon is pointed based on it's damage output. The value of this edition is being able to take most anything and still be successful. If that means Salamanders toasting flyers off the board then so be it.
The drawbacks of flamers vs flyers are evident and people that keep peddling the opposite it do themselves a disservice.
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't think it's super logical. But it doesn't need to be either.
The value of a weapon is pointed based on it's damage output. The value of this edition is being able to take most anything and still be successful. If that means Salamanders toasting flyers off the board then so be it.
The drawbacks of flamers vs flyers are evident and people that keep peddling the opposite it do themselves a disservice.
Game wise doesn't matter for sure.
Fluff wise makes almost no sense considering how are you hurting a storm raven that is designed for atmospheric entry with flamethrowers that probably dont get near the temperatures that the hull normally would take.
perhaps they are jetting it into the open jump doors could make sense. its a lot of juggling around to make sense of it in fluff but ultimately in game it doesn't matter and it wont happen nearly that much unless some one was deliberately going out of their way to do it.
Fluff wise makes almost no sense considering how are you hurting a storm raven that is designed for atmospheric entry with flamethrowers that probably dont get near the temperatures that the hull normally would take.
perhaps they are jetting it into the open jump doors could make sense. its a lot of juggling around to make sense of it in fluff but ultimately in game it doesn't matter and it wont happen nearly that much unless some one was deliberately going out of their way to do it.
Then again such a vehicle entering the atmosphere probably shouldn't have exposed missiles/weapons while doing so.
Fluff wise makes almost no sense considering how are you hurting a storm raven that is designed for atmospheric entry with flamethrowers that probably dont get near the temperatures that the hull normally would take.
perhaps they are jetting it into the open jump doors could make sense. its a lot of juggling around to make sense of it in fluff but ultimately in game it doesn't matter and it wont happen nearly that much unless some one was deliberately going out of their way to do it.
Then again such a vehicle entering the atmosphere probably shouldn't have exposed missiles/weapons while doing so.
Its almost as if the Stormraven was a terrible design from day 1.
5th ed 40k and onward GW had some rather...questionable ideas concerning model design.
Remember dreadknights? Those were 5th ed. Necron vehicles, with their weakpoints hanging out? Ditto.
Those bug eyed chaos mechs, the half dragon and that toilet paper apostle? Same edition.
Pumbagores? Pretty sure that around the same time period.
6th and 7th ed wasn't much better. You had the stormsurge, with its little balcony then.
To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.
"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"
"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"
On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.
That would happen regardless of core rules, due to Savior Protocols.
Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.
Triangles are a thing. I could easily do:
...C...
../.\..
./...\.
D.....D
Or so, where C is the commander, D is the drone, and the Imperials are firing from south. Even if they draw a perfectly straight line to the Commander, and the Commander is 18" from any Drones, it can't be shot. Because the Guardsmen have ADD or so.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.
And let's not forget that there are times when even the extreme abuse of this rule can be explained by fluff.
Can't shoot the Avatar? Off-screen Eldar psykers are screwing with your eyesight.
Can't shoot the Daemon Prince? What are the odds you're not in a least a miniature warp storm?
Can't shoot the UM Chaplain? Plot Armour.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
admironheart wrote: I guess the ghosthelms permit the farseers to better see the future so they can avoid the mortal wounds?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.
And let's not forget that there are times when even the extreme abuse of this rule can be explained by fluff.
Can't shoot the Avatar? Off-screen Eldar psykers are screwing with your eyesight.
Can't shoot the Daemon Prince? What are the odds you're not in a least a miniature warp storm?
Can't shoot the UM Chaplain? Plot Armour.
Plot Armor belongs with Movie Marines, and their The Script Writers Hate Us and Stunt Doubles Special rules, instead of it being part and parcel of the core rules in that manner.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.
Triangles are a thing. I could easily do:
...C...
../.\..
./...\.
D.....D
Or so, where C is the commander, D is the drone, and the Imperials are firing from south. Even if they draw a perfectly straight line to the Commander, and the Commander is 18" from any Drones, it can't be shot. Because the Guardsmen have ADD or so.
The drones can still get in the way and block the shot. Remember the battlefield isn't static. That's a quirk of turn based gaming.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.
Triangles are a thing. I could easily do:
...C...
../.\..
./...\.
D.....D
Or so, where C is the commander, D is the drone, and the Imperials are firing from south. Even if they draw a perfectly straight line to the Commander, and the Commander is 18" from any Drones, it can't be shot. Because the Guardsmen have ADD or so.
That is true for pretty much every army, not sure why you singled out Tau. The drone hordes are more a product of pricing inefficiency. Rumors of the demise of crisis teams has been greatly exaggerated.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.
Triangles are a thing. I could easily do:
...C...
../.\..
./...\.
D.....D
Or so, where C is the commander, D is the drone, and the Imperials are firing from south. Even if they draw a perfectly straight line to the Commander, and the Commander is 18" from any Drones, it can't be shot. Because the Guardsmen have ADD or so.
That is true for pretty much every army, not sure why you singled out Tau. The drone hordes are more a product of pricing inefficiency. Rumors of the demise of crisis teams has been greatly exaggerated.
It's potentially more egregious for the Tau, by merit of the fact their commanders have relevant guns, and care less about being a limited-radius buff-aura.
I would agree that Tau commanders are one of the most effective deep strikers in the game. But Fly, Savior Protocols, and massive firepower are really what make that happen. Along with overpriced Broadsides and Hammerheads.
My favourite one is 2+ invuln Grey Knight Librarian in Terminator armour in the fight phase, more of just because I can picture the scene of big ass boss monsters smashing down, destroying scenery and buildings for the guy to stand there and go, sorry what was that?
