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 Galas wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:
I'm actually okay with flamers hitting fliers.

The fliers don't actually fly above the cloudline, like people seem to think. They fly low and slowly (for them) because hitting a dude from a mile in the air while moving at the speed of sound is REALLY hard.

All the flamer dude has to do is point his gun up and fire into the air to make a wall of flame that might damage systems or whatever or make the pilot spaz out because he suddenly has to avoid a superheated fireball.

Have you ever flown an airplane? 1,000 feet AGL is the typical lowest safe altitude in general aviation. Furthermore the cloud ceiling is usually more than 3,500 feet AGL as well, and only goes lower on really cloudy and rainy days.

The longest range flamethrower to my knowledge is the m132 armored flamethrower, which has a range of 200 meters, (or about 600 feet).

This is a typical a10 strafing run Look at his relative speed in relation to the tree tops, further more look at his altitude, which appears to be more than 500 feet at its lowest.

Using this data tell me how this makes logical sense?


On a different note, an aircraft should not be affected by moving..... Aircraft are ridiculously steady platforms given the speed at which they travel. Even a pinky general aviation aircraft can remain relatively straight as long as there isn't a big ole cross wind. An aircraft with a sophisticated fly by wire system, gyroscopic stabilized guns, sights, 40,000 years of advanced engineering and weapons that literally travel at the speed of light, and you're telling me, that this aircraft is less capable of staying on target than a tank?. Furthermore, you're telling me that a guy on the ground with a rifle is a better shot than a trained combat pilot when against other flyers? The vendetta is not a dedicated air to air fighter, but it's still going to be nominally better at taking out other flyers with similar flight characteristics than a guy on the ground.

Oh yeah, also why does a supersonic jet get to capture objectives?

Flyers in this edition make me so mad

Flyers in 40k are just bad. They aren't viable in the type of gameplay that is 40k. They are all abstractions because if you play them in a semi simulation form they are just implayable.
8th aren't worse from a simulation standpoint than 7th. But at least are more consistent with the rest of how the game works.

They are just normal vehicles now with a special rule called Fly and minimal movement? Nice! Thats the only way you can make Flyers work in this game.

Plus, this is a game where people fight with sci-fi ranged weapons at meele range like if this was a Napoleonic War.

So you're ok with a system that penalizes flyers for...... flying? A vendetta is now best used as a stationary gun platform. For all intents and purposes it is a tank. That is neither engaging, nor fun.

I play as a way to forge my own narratives, stories, and mental pictures. When flyers are better off staying still, or getting shot down by people with flame throwers, that aspect of the game becomes compromised.

I'll be better with a system without flyers. Or flyers being markers on the map.

But they are here to stay, and I doubht that people is gonna be happy with flyers being just a thing that you put at the side of the board and say "My Flyer do a attack in this line" and every model in that line receive an attack when you move the model on a straitgh line doing flying sounds with your mouth, because thats the only way to use flyers in any realistic way in how 40k gameplay fuction.

I'm fine with Flyers being lighter and more movile tanks for gameplay purposes with some restrictions to what can attack them in meele, yes.
You can adress the flame throwers problem very easy. The rest fo me is totally fine.

Plus all of this "Lowest safe altitude" did you saw The Force Awakens? Flyers in sci-fi don't work like real flyers. Many times they literally TOUCH the water or land behind them. Warhammer flyers, in the fantasy consistence of the universe work that way. Just look at any drawing with flyers and ground troops.




They are literally shooting themselves at POINT BLANK with a heavy bolter! FFS! Put all realism aside and just embrace the sillines of the warhammer universe when talking about this kind of things.

My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).

I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.

 Elbows wrote:
My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).

I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.

Basically this:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
This image (from, the internet) upsets me

Spoiler:

Razorwing spam vs drone spam.
Like what?

Actually sounds kind of cool. You've got a Beastmaster Kabalite sending his hordes of highly trained flocks to try and tear apart a large contingency of Tau Drones.

Though I have to wonder.. Does everyone just always fire on Overcharge? It sounds like everyone keeps popping it off no matter the situation. It's not like S7 AP-3 is a bad thing..

The real issue is that by itself, flockspam can bog the game down in way too many die rolls.

10 Flocks is 70 points. You make 80 rolls to hit, averaging 40 rolls to wound, for an average of slighly over 6 saving throws. 120 attack rolls for 70 points.

When you add a Beastmaster, that becomes 80 rolls to hit, and 40 rerolls, averaging 60 rolls to wound for 10 saving throws. 180 attack rolls for 70 points and the Beastmaster Support. Add Doom, you get to reroll to-wound for another 50 dice, for 230 attack rolls on a 70-point unit.

 Galas wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).

I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.

Basically this:

So the Genosians are using those droid fighters, and the Republic are using shuttles and strategic bombers. I'm not sure how that applies to his "Only shuttles and troop transports"

 Galas wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).

I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.

Basically this:

It's still a bit daft to have shuttles and flying transports in a game that rarely lasts past seven turns. They made it better in 8th because Flyers start on the board but each flyer is still massively different from each other and GW just won't put the time into making them work properly.

 Selym wrote:
8th Edition:

Player1: I will shoot at that 12' tall lava monster called the Avatar
Player2: You can't.
P1: Why not? It out in the open!
P2: I flew my Swooping Hawks to land 12" behind your firing unit, and the Avvy is 13" away.
P1: Y you do dis!?

==== Some time later ====

P2: I shoot your 12' tall Dreadnought
P1: Nu-uh, he's standing behind some Terminators!
P2: Doesn't matter.

That's funny! I feel for the marine player a lot right now! but funny

 Elbows wrote:
My only beef with flyers is that they're silly enough to only make predominantly fighters/bombers...vs. flyers which would make logical sense. The only flyers present in the game should be shuttles and troop transports (armed as needed).

I could see a lot of cool scenarios using that idea, but when you're trying to put borderline strategic bombers into a football field sized battle, it becomes really goofy/silly.

Aren't the Vendetta, Valkyrie, Stormraven, Thunderhawk, Night Scythe, etc. all troop transport gunships?

And most of the rest are either VTOL gunships, like the Vulture, or dive bombers, like the Blitz Bomma, for close air support.


There are a few air supremacy fighters and the Marauder bomber, but it does seem that most of the planes are planes that could logically be participating in a firefight.


Now, whether the mechanics portray the aircraft with any remote sense of realism is another matter entirely

Double-post.

"Hyper position" heavy bolters on bastions existing as a perfect metaphor for the ramifications of the loss of fire arcs.

Keeping random game length in a game that often seems incredibly decisive by turn 3.

Sicaran's being able to see invisible models because bespoke fly keyword jervis karate chop!

Trading difficult decisions and tense important rolls with endless rolling and anticlimactic arbitrary health bars that melt every weapon and its intended logics into a sort of warm tapioca of mediocrity.

flyers with the ability to bomb units they flew over in the movement phase bombing other flyers then also shooting them with all their forward facings weapons from the tip of their rear vertical stabilizer because reasons

Laser banners! (cue 80's metal guitar riff)

Literally any model unable to charge another model or unit due to physical impossibility of base being within 1 inch base to base due to terrain.

Keyword infantry arbitrarily being able to melt through ruins but everyone else having to obey physics with the exception of units with keyword fly because they essentially teleport because actual pathing might be interesting.

A massive incentive gap for weapon strength (a gully of sorts) while also handing out -1 ap to far too many weapons

Understanding concepts like 2D3 or 3D3 for weapon output while also forgetting them, saying what the hell and doing D6 for incredibly iconic and often points laden weaponry.

Putting out so much 2 and 3 damage weapons as to make a mockery of expensive elite infantry that aren't a total bargain. Why take dev centurions when scion command squads exist and the army construction rules allows me to take them?

The Harlequin Flip-Belt

The Harlequin's Flip-Belt is a technological marvel of such grace that only the most advanced civilisation could have made it. Luckily, Harlequins belong to the most advanced civilisation in the universe. The Flip-Belt's mechanisms are a closely guarded secret of the Black Library, but it is known that it allows its user to temporarily defy gravity by jumping. This is what enables the Harlequins to perform death-defying acrobatics on the battlefield - often jumping over enemy defences and entrenched troops.
The maximum capabilities of this belt are unknown, as it has recently become apparent to Imperial Scholars that it is possible for a Harlequin to do a quintuple-backflip over a skyscraper, so long as that skyscraper is only a few meters wide or deep, and regardless of whether this skyscraper reaches to the roof of a cavern. As it turns out, the limitations provided by height or ceilings means nothing to Flip-Belt technology, and Imperial Scholars are considering reclassifyiing the Flip-Belt as a teleportation device.

 jeff white wrote:

Wow.

If you have something to say I suggest you develop the spine to say it mate.

 jeff white wrote:

 Intruder wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Intruder wrote:
It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.

Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.

Why is it blowing up?

-4 to hit. That's only if you overcharge it though . If you don't overcharge you still miss no matter what you roll.

Holy wtf?
I didn't know things were that bad.
Gw needs to distinguish natural ones from modified.
What a cluster

They do, it's just that all the overheating rules don't say they only happened on natural 1s.
There are other abilities and rolls that do require a natural roll (like the one where natural 1s To Hit/Wound/Save always fail).

Because he is an Unstoppable Revenant :O , a Wraithknight does not even fear to step over enemy INFANTRY units, but respectfully steps back from Necron Scarabs or Ripper swarms.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

 Intruder wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Intruder wrote:
It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.

Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.

Why is it blowing up?

-4 to hit. That's only if you overcharge it though . If you don't overcharge you still miss no matter what you roll.

Holy wtf?
I didn't know things were that bad.
Gw needs to distinguish natural ones from modified.
What a cluster

They do, it's just that all the overheating rules don't say they only happened on natural 1s.
There are other abilities and rolls that do require a natural roll (like the one where natural 1s To Hit/Wound/Save always fail).

Correct me if Im wrong but Ive not seen a rule that says the lowest you can roll is a 1? So 0, -1, -2 although misses, dont overheat?

secretForge wrote:
Correct me if Im wrong but Ive not seen a rule that says the lowest you can roll is a 1? So 0, -1, -2 although misses, dont overheat?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/17/new-edition-now-available-read-the-rules-get-the-t-shirtgw-homepage-post-1/
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf



Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

secretForge wrote:
Correct me if Im wrong but Ive not seen a rule that says the lowest you can roll is a 1? So 0, -1, -2 although misses, dont overheat?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/17/new-edition-now-available-read-the-rules-get-the-t-shirtgw-homepage-post-1/
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf



Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

Fair enough

Speaking of modifiers, with Modifiers in the Psychic Phase, how do doubles work?
Two ones but one is modified to a two?
A roll of two but a modifier has turned a two to a one?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Speaking of modifiers, with Modifiers in the Psychic Phase, how do doubles work?
Two ones but one is modified to a two?
A roll of two but a modifier has turned a two to a one?

Yvraine's ability add 1 to the result of psychic tests.
The psychic test's result is the sum of the two dice, so adding one to the sum doesn't change the results of any of the dice, and therefore doesn't affect perils.
You perils on double ones, or double 6s, not on a psychic test of 2 or 12.
Other abilities might be worded differently though.

Sicaran's being able to see invisible models because bespoke fly keyword jervis karate chop!

Can someone translate this? I have no clue what it is saying at all.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sicaran's being able to see invisible models because bespoke fly keyword jervis karate chop!

Can someone translate this? I have no clue what it is saying at all.

The Accelerator Autocannon suffers no to-hit penalties when targeting models with the Fly Keyword. The key being that it suffers no to-hit penalties of any kind whatsoever, be it firing on the move, nightfight, a Ghostkeel's Electrowarfare Suite, etc.

Guess that AA tracking is really *that* good!

fresus wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Speaking of modifiers, with Modifiers in the Psychic Phase, how do doubles work?
Two ones but one is modified to a two?
A roll of two but a modifier has turned a two to a one?

Yvraine's ability add 1 to the result of psychic tests.
The psychic test's result is the sum of the two dice, so adding one to the sum doesn't change the results of any of the dice, and therefore doesn't affect perils.
You perils on double ones, or double 6s, not on a psychic test of 2 or 12.
Other abilities might be worded differently though.

Thanks.
It's good to get an opinion from someone whose eyes don't glaze over when I bring up the psychic phase.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

It's good to get an opinion from someone whose eyes don't glaze over when I bring up the psychic phase.

People still do that?

I sat through a Libby conclave multiple times in 7th. Luckily I had Templars, and I'm *really* good at rolling DtW in 7e.

My Emprar's Champion was forever named "Galahad Witchslayer" because of it.

 Intruder wrote:
It's the dead of night. The Space Marine tactical squad moves up. The plasma cannon-toting giant in power armour aims downrange. He sees a shimmer. There! The ghostkeel and it's pesky stealth drones that are shrouding it. He fires.

Roll a d6. On a 1-5, his plasma cannon blows up and he dies. On a 6, he misses anyway.

I am sorry but this is not a silly rules issue. This is a bad player issue.

You know that moving your heavy weapon in night-fight is taking a massive nerf to hit(to the point where you litteraly cannot hit), so first off: why are you having the model fire it at all? Second: why TF are you firing it on unsafe mode? The ghostkeel is already getting wounded on a 3+ from normal safe mode.

All weapons that can overheat' aside from Ork mega-weapons, have a safe mode(and that is proper Orky) when your model is going to be effected by negative modifiers you fire your weapon on safe mode. If you do not; then it is you who are daft, not the rules.

Don't you find it just a bit weird that Plasma is more likely to explode at night? Fluffwise it makes no sense. Crunchwise, I don't ever recall Plasma being broken for 7th ed, and everyone took Grav instead. Guess what, Grav Cannons are still the superior option this edition.

Not really.

Warning fluff and realistic explanation to follow:

On the move bs - makes sense for heavy weapons; they are meant to be static emplacements, not combat rifles. For the overheat issue, moving and firing the man-portable plasma cannon means your marine has not taken the time to properly set-up when he starts supercharging. His impatience is more likely to blow up in his face.

Night-fight and stealth tech: both, alone, mean that the marine is more focused on trying to aim at his target. He is not paying attention to the indicators(or they may be turned off/on a low-light setting to reduce chances that he is seenand shot at) so he can draw a better bead on his target. This makes supercharging at those targets far more dangerous, and shouldn't be done.

Effects that blind and disorient: see night-fight and stealth tech, but this time he cannot see or is too distracted to pay attention to indicators.

Final note: plasma indicators may already always have the needle buried in the red when supercharging (we do not have the fluff on this); therefore it may be up to the operator to "feel" his weapon. When focusing on targets that are more difficult to hit to begin with(- to hit roll modifiers) he has lost focus on feeling for the weapon's critical point.

One last thing: a properly trained and disciplined soldier is not going to be firing on supercharge when the conditions are more likely to have his weapon explode, he would only do this if he panics(or for Orks just doesn't care).

 Crablezworth wrote:


Trading difficult decisions and tense important rolls with endless rolling and anticlimactic arbitrary health bars that melt every weapon and its intended logics into a sort of warm tapioca of mediocrity.

I'm glad of this. More consistent performance means more emphasis on strategy and tactics, and less on winning 2 lucky rolls on turn 1 and crippling your opponents army.

Mark.

pm713 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
Shooting at night is considerably more stressful than doing it by daylight. The same for stationary vs moving. Overheating not only include mechanical but human failure. See? Took two minutes to make sense out of it

It took two minutes to create a fluff justification. Doesn't change the fact that Plasma Guns detonating more often at night or when firing at specific types of targets is an unintended consequence of a badly written rule needs to be reversed immediately.

Stress is hardly likely to cause a fatal injury from aiming.

Unless you , ya know, aim it at your self by accident and shoot yourself......I dunno, while running, in the dark, carrying a blinding bright weapon that emits the same stuff the sun does..... What could go wrong with running, in the dark, with a weapon that fires barley contained sun jets?

Slave wrote:
Unless you , ya know, aim it at your self by accident and shoot yourself......I dunno, while running, in the dark, carrying a blinding bright weapon that emits the same stuff the sun does..... What could go wrong with running, in the dark, with a weapon that fires barley contained sun jets?

Pretty sure a geneforged supersoldier in half a ton of self stabilising and strength enhancing armour could handle that.