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not sure how I feel about the whole plasma issue.

I do feel their needs to be a major risk to using Supercharge....it should be a desperate attempt not a standard option. They are already highly unstable weapons so the risk needs to be great. Perhaps a natural roll of one kills the bearer (or D6 mortal wounds to a vehicle and cannot be used for rest of game), and this roll is unaffected by modifiers and cannot be rerolled.

On the one hand, I honestly feel like gets hot was meant to trigger on natural rolls of 1 before modifiers (unless FAQ's otherwise and I didn't see it yet) but on the other, it only does that in the overcharged profile (which is stronger than plasma used to be!) and I honestly prefer that it's something you might want to prepare to use in the preceding phases...

 Hollow wrote:
Again... I would have to say that the launch of 8th has also been the rise of TFG. It really does get worse with each edition, people are now deliberately misinterpreting rules and RAW just to try and make some obtuse point. Sad.

Every new edition has people through "rose colour glasses" or intentional misdirection or misremembering old rules as new, happen... every.. new... set.. of... rules.
GW likes to write in a "casual" tone so it can cause confusion when trying to identify a "hard rule".
The more "competitive" types will have the advantage of hammering out tournament rules to clean up some of this, the majority of casual gamers will not have any higher authority to point to in order to hammer out the grey-zones.

This rule alone seems reasonable till you look at it harder: “Every model [is] within 2″ horizontally and 6″ vertically of at least one other model from their unit.”
I see way too many instances where I can manage a 6" squad "coherency".
Luckily we no longer use templates, so that does not matter as much (case for obtuse point?).

"Misunderstandings and neglect occasion more mischief in the world than even malice and wickedness. At all events, the two latter are of less frequent occurrence.” - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1774)
You may be more familiar with "Hanlon's Razor": "Never attribute malice to what can adequately be explained by stupidity." (~1978)

Intentional misinterpreting rules just to make a "useless point" seems an awful lot of work for no apparent reward, are you sure you are not missing something?

I tend to keep the below quote in mind:
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell

"Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit.” - Oscar Wilde

Terrain, LOS rules and cover in general is very poor this edition.
Heres to hoping they seriously take some time to rework them.

Having said that they werent great in 7th either but thats no excuse when launching a new ruleset.

So far it's made me realize people over use and misapply the TFG label on a frequent basis.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
This image (from, the internet) upsets me

Spoiler:

Razorwing spam vs drone spam.
Like what?

Actually sounds kind of cool. You've got a Beastmaster Kabalite sending his hordes of highly trained flocks to try and tear apart a large contingency of Tau Drones.

Though I have to wonder.. Does everyone just always fire on Overcharge? It sounds like everyone keeps popping it off no matter the situation. It's not like S7 AP-3 is a bad thing..

 Ratius wrote:
Terrain, LOS rules and cover in general is very poor this edition.
Heres to hoping they seriously take some time to rework them.

Having said that they werent great in 7th either but thats no excuse when launching a new ruleset.

Exalted, the terrain ruies are a dumpster fire currently.



As to the main topic, let's see.


Ruins without bases are basically useless

You only need to see and be in range of a single model out of 30 to kill them all

Random damage or shooting output right up next to solid reliable weaponry that does 2-3 damage a shot.

Random charge still, somehow, in the game.

The lowliest grot tank to the massive baneblade, all apparently forgot they were tanks and now just resemble sadness wagons of cuckery.

"I love this new editions renewed focus on infantry" yeah its so different now that we refer to infantry as bubble wrap and take them simply to bubble wrap around our sadness wagons.

Supersonic jet fighters with spherical vision but still forced to move because that's apparently a bridge too far in terms of lost detail or realism.

Leaving close combat with zero downside or risk of damage. "Once I told the chaplain I very much didn't enjoy him hacking at my neck he briskly apologized and pointed me on my merry way"

Heavy armour (power armour) being somehow incentivized to sit on its but in cover but totally useless in the open and the worse your overall armour, the less you likely care about even getting cover due to diminishing returns. (taking a 3 to a 2 is one ting, taking a 6 to a 5 is another).

Creating a massive disparity and only 2 real units, those that can fly and those that cannot.

Not allowing a unit to be held in reserve without some bespokeness, because reasons.

Having ground vehicles without limbs "fight" in clsoe combat, how did that not get laughed out of the room?

Introducing universal splitfire while taking away fire arcs...

I go you go deployment, enough said.

Artillery that can target anything anywhere on the board, with the only criterion being range. I generally think artillery and flamers being go to anti-air speaks for itself in terms of silliness.

The entire game taking context. common sense and any ability to adsorb the player and replacing it with giant health bars of mediocrity.

A collection of foc's that at the end of the day control almost nothing, allow for endless spam and now with the added monkey wrench of under strength units. (the cognitive dissonance on the podcast scene has been massive on this point, spamming isn't the problem they tell us, then the next 45 minutes of every podcast is players talking about their lists full of the same unit)

I see a lot of complaints but the game store was booming, the number of players in my area has tripled, and the shelves are looking barren.

Which means overall the simplification while won't please everyone has made the game more enjoyable for most. Of course people will try to break the rules every way possible.

Example the complaint of re-rolls before modifiers. Is dumb re-rolls happen when re-rolls are triggered because that is when it says to take them.

Example a unit has -1 to hit, but also has re-roll fails to hit. They fire at a unit, and 3 of them roll a 3. Which for their BS is a hit, but due to the -1 becomes a 2 which is a fail.
Which triggers the re-roll because they failed. You can't pass then fail.

Conversely a unit of hormagaunts gets +1 to hit from something and charges a unit and rolls 3 1's. Scything talons let them re-rolls misses of 1's. The re-roll is triggered, and the +1 does not make it a 2 and stop the re-roll.

IE That rule was to make re-rolls work, not stop them from working. Another a plasma gun has a -2 to hit from moving, and firing at a vehicle that popped smoke.
Being insane he tries an overcharged shot, and rolls a 3. Minus 2 is a 1. However a captain is nearby and he can re-roll 1's. It's now a 1, and he re-rolls it. Rolling a 2, and still melts into a pile of goop.

"Example a unit has -1 to hit, but also has re-roll fails to hit. They fire at a unit, and 3 of them roll a 3. Which for their BS is a hit, but due to the -1 becomes a 2 which is a fail.
Which triggers the re-roll because they failed. You can't pass then fail. "

That's not the way it works.

Martel732 wrote:
"Example a unit has -1 to hit, but also has re-roll fails to hit. They fire at a unit, and 3 of them roll a 3. Which for their BS is a hit, but due to the -1 becomes a 2 which is a fail.
Which triggers the re-roll because they failed. You can't pass then fail. "

That's not the way it works.

It is in 8th. rerolls are applied before modifiers.

Yes, I know that. But that's why moving heavy weapons can't reroll 3's if they have BS 3+.

Heavy weapons were not mentioned anywhere in that example though...

Martel is right, wagguy got it wrong. You can't reroll, as you didn't fail to hit in the moment the reroll would apply.

I don't get the rage about plasmaguns. For the first time in all(?) editions the imperium finally got them stabilized. If you are afraid of melting your razorback... don't fire them overcharged or don't take them in the first place. Or be a good crazed helbrute and have fun with it.

8th Edition:

Player1: I will shoot at that 12' tall lava monster called the Avatar
Player2: You can't.
P1: Why not? It out in the open!
P2: I flew my Swooping Hawks to land 12" behind your firing unit, and the Avvy is 13" away.
P1: Y you do dis!?

==== Some time later ====

P2: I shoot your 12' tall Dreadnought
P1: Nu-uh, he's standing behind some Terminators!
P2: Doesn't matter.

 sfshilo wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Only in the shooting phase. Quit being so literal with rules interpretations....

I'm amazed at the amount of people in the thread that are completely missing the fact that the thread is largely meant to be humorous.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Only in the shooting phase. Quit being so literal with rules interpretations....

I'm amazed at the amount of people in the thread that are completely missing the fact that the thread is largely meant to be humorous.

If the thread has potential for besmirching good lady GW's honour then you're guaranteed a sense of humour malfunction from certain... individuals.

Another one:

Several necrons come under fire and are destroyed. A large remainder of the unit flees the field. A few moments later, the mini-scarabs roll miraculously and put together not only all the slain warriors, but somehow find spare parts to replace several of the warriors that fled!

Swooping Hawk Exarch Idranel has thirteen centuries' experience on the battlefield. On this day, at this hour, he deems it appropriate to wait high on a plateau for the right moment to strike. He sees it, it is mere moments away. He readies himself and his fellow Hawks, preparing their wings for their glorious anti-gravitic flight. He bends his knees, ready to leap into battle. The moment is coming. It is here. It is time!

He leaps into the sky, and slams face first into a giant sign that reads "Any unit that does not enter play by turn three is considered destroyed" and he and his squad vanish in a puff of logic.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm amazed at the amount of people in the thread that are completely missing the fact that the thread is largely meant to be humorous.

Is it just humour though? Almost everything brought up in this thread has a sister thread somewhere on the forum of large collections of people whining that GW ruined their favourite unit or the rules are broken or GW doesn't care about balancing bla de bla de bla. I'd venture that, despite the jokey undertones, most people in this thread actually completely agree that what they're posting is a rediculous aspect of the rules and (in some of the more histerical cases, *cough*most of the cases*cough*) believe that the game is much worse because their little piece of fluff reflected in rules is not included in this editions rules.

Though I would agree that this thread is a humerous view of angry people getting frustrated that they no longer have anything valid to complain about concerning GW.

Deathwatxh specialised ammo.
Busts up the smallest organic thing to Daemon Princes, Tau Crisis Suits, Monstrous Crisis Suits, mechanical zombies, fleshy zombies, cyborgs and even Wraithbone with ease.
That thinly plated little Land Speeder with easy access to the drivers/pilots shrugs it off because it's a real machine dammit.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Vehicles have always suffered Gets Hot.

No they haven't. Only for the last couple of editions. It used to be that vehicles had cooling systems and never suffered "gets hot". It made sense and I don't know why they changed it.

 edbradders wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Vehicles have always suffered Gets Hot.

No they haven't. Only for the last couple of editions. It used to be that vehicles had cooling systems and never suffered "gets hot". It made sense and I don't know why they changed it.

doesnt matter point is it's not new

The fact that you can have vehicles simultaneously hit and miss each other. Or the fact that you cannot assault flyers because they're out of reach, but you cannot move past them because it violates the 1" rule, turning them into a You Shall Not Pass wall versus models that cannot fly. Oh, and then there's this anecdote (and remember, Valkyries have Hover Jet).

I'm actually okay with flamers hitting fliers.

The fliers don't actually fly above the cloudline, like people seem to think. They fly low and slowly (for them) because hitting a dude from a mile in the air while moving at the speed of sound is REALLY hard.

All the flamer dude has to do is point his gun up and fire into the air to make a wall of flame that might damage systems or whatever or make the pilot spaz out because he suddenly has to avoid a superheated fireball.

A Tau Sky Ray, pinnacle of anti-grav and smart systems technology enters the battlefield. It's a hard fought war, and soldiers have been holding the line for hours now, casualties ramping up on both side with thousands of soldiers giving their lives. The Sky Ray fires its deadly payload, killing 6 grots. Out of ammo forever, he then proceed to throw itself towards the enemy lines in hopes to distract some big guys for a bit.

Dominating the battlefield through shear firepower and its towering size, a powerful Stormurge battlesuit is plowing through the enemy lines. Despise having sustained damage from the Astra Militarum heavy weaponry, the mechanical giant is still operating at full potential. Suddenly, a scared and isolated imperial guard aims his flashlight towards the Tau construct. The devastating blow is just too much for the behemoth: its optics explode, reducing its accuracy; giant chunks of armor fall off, reducing its stopping power; and the sturdy mechanics of its gigantic legs give up, drastically reducing its ability to stomp. The beast is now just a shadow of its former self. Damn Imperial flashlights.

Sim-Life wrote:
I'm actually okay with flamers hitting fliers.

The fliers don't actually fly above the cloudline, like people seem to think. They fly low and slowly (for them) because hitting a dude from a mile in the air while moving at the speed of sound is REALLY hard.

All the flamer dude has to do is point his gun up and fire into the air to make a wall of flame that might damage systems or whatever or make the pilot spaz out because he suddenly has to avoid a superheated fireball.

Have you ever flown an airplane? 1,000 feet AGL is the typical lowest safe altitude in general aviation. Furthermore the cloud ceiling is usually more than 3,500 feet AGL as well, and only goes lower on really cloudy and rainy days.

The longest range flamethrower to my knowledge is the m132 armored flamethrower, which has a range of 200 meters, (or about 600 feet).

This is a typical a10 strafing run Look at his relative speed in relation to the tree tops, further more look at his altitude, which appears to be more than 500 feet at its lowest.

Using this data tell me how this makes logical sense?


On a different note, an aircraft should not be affected by moving..... Aircraft are ridiculously steady platforms given the speed at which they travel. Even a pinky general aviation aircraft can remain relatively straight as long as there isn't a big ole cross wind. An aircraft with a sophisticated fly by wire system, gyroscopic stabilized guns, sights, 40,000 years of advanced engineering and weapons that literally travel at the speed of light, and you're telling me, that this aircraft is less capable of staying on target than a tank?. Furthermore, you're telling me that a guy on the ground with a rifle is a better shot than a trained combat pilot when against other flyers? The vendetta is not a dedicated air to air fighter, but it's still going to be nominally better at taking out other flyers with similar flight characteristics than a guy on the ground.

Oh yeah, also why does a supersonic jet get to capture objectives?

Flyers in this edition make me so mad

So really the debate comes down to those who enjoy raw rules and those who enjoy abstract rules.

Me personally, I don't want to have to justify any rule or apply imagination in abstract to the rules. I think rules should be so complete that nothing can be left to question or in Warhammer a dozen handshake rulings before play.

Consistency is worth gold.

The A10 has to be the most relevant example I've ever seen in a discussion. More info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rGcn2XGr48

Basically has a Punisher Gatling Cannon that actually does stuff as a main weapon.

Can't see infantry realistically engaging that mofo - bishes be lucky to remain standing.

Fighting alongside your company captain is inspiring. Somehow you just become a better shot when he's nearby...

...unless you're both in a bunker shooting out a window. Then he might as well be another squaddie to you.
XD

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:
I'm actually okay with flamers hitting fliers.

The fliers don't actually fly above the cloudline, like people seem to think. They fly low and slowly (for them) because hitting a dude from a mile in the air while moving at the speed of sound is REALLY hard.

All the flamer dude has to do is point his gun up and fire into the air to make a wall of flame that might damage systems or whatever or make the pilot spaz out because he suddenly has to avoid a superheated fireball.

Have you ever flown an airplane? 1,000 feet AGL is the typical lowest safe altitude in general aviation. Furthermore the cloud ceiling is usually more than 3,500 feet AGL as well, and only goes lower on really cloudy and rainy days.

The longest range flamethrower to my knowledge is the m132 armored flamethrower, which has a range of 200 meters, (or about 600 feet).

This is a typical a10 strafing run Look at his relative speed in relation to the tree tops, further more look at his altitude, which appears to be more than 500 feet at its lowest.

Using this data tell me how this makes logical sense?


On a different note, an aircraft should not be affected by moving..... Aircraft are ridiculously steady platforms given the speed at which they travel. Even a pinky general aviation aircraft can remain relatively straight as long as there isn't a big ole cross wind. An aircraft with a sophisticated fly by wire system, gyroscopic stabilized guns, sights, 40,000 years of advanced engineering and weapons that literally travel at the speed of light, and you're telling me, that this aircraft is less capable of staying on target than a tank?. Furthermore, you're telling me that a guy on the ground with a rifle is a better shot than a trained combat pilot when against other flyers? The vendetta is not a dedicated air to air fighter, but it's still going to be nominally better at taking out other flyers with similar flight characteristics than a guy on the ground.

Oh yeah, also why does a supersonic jet get to capture objectives?

Flyers in this edition make me so mad

Flyers in 40k are just bad. They aren't viable in the type of gameplay that is 40k. They are all abstractions because if you play them in a semi simulation form they are just implayable.
8th aren't worse from a simulation standpoint than 7th. But at least are more consistent with the rest of how the game works.

They are just normal vehicles now with a special rule called Fly and minimal movement? Nice! Thats the only way you can make Flyers work in this game.

Plus, this is a game where people fight with sci-fi ranged weapons at meele range like if this was a Napoleonic War.