Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 don_mondo wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Vehicles have always suffered Gets Hot.

Ummm, no, they haven't...

No, but since 6th they have.

 Purifier wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Vehicles have always suffered Gets Hot.

Ummm, no, they haven't...

No, but since 6th they have.

It is GW propaganda to believe that all of 40k ha been like 6e and 7e.

(something I personally experienced)

A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.

Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"

Shiro-chan wrote:
(something I personally experienced)

A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.

Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"

Back-talk like that will buy you a one way ticket to the Commissar's office, Guardsman!

Look, zombies are scary, m'kay? Do you want Night of the Living dead to happen, because not killing zombies is how you get NotLD to happen.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Shiro-chan wrote:
(something I personally experienced)

A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.

Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"

Back-talk like that will buy you a one way ticket to the Commissar's office, Guardsman!

Close-minded leadership like that is a one-way ticket to our collective graves, sir!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Look, zombies are scary, m'kay? Do you want Night of the Living dead to happen, because not killing zombies is how you get NotLD to happen.

Why can't we be friends with the differently-alive?

 Selym wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Shiro-chan wrote:
(something I personally experienced)

A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.

Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"

Back-talk like that will buy you a one way ticket to the Commissar's office, Guardsman!

Close-minded leadership like that is a one-way ticket to our collective graves, sir!

Everyone pay attention to Private Selym here, he will now demonstrate how to correctly catch a Boltpistol Bolt with our teeth. *BLAM*

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit. This is the dumbest rule I have ever heard about in any game ever.

Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Shiro-chan wrote:
(something I personally experienced)

A single zombie walks over the battlefield, but the hulking Terminator-clad Chaos Space Marine behind him can't be shot because the zombie is in the way.

Guardsman: "Sir, there's a Chaos Terminator Lord over there. Permission to fire?"
Imperial leaderdude: "I only see a zombie."
Guardsman: "No Sir, I mean he's behind the zom-"
Imperial leaderdude: "I ONLY SEE A ZOMBIE!!!"

Back-talk like that will buy you a one way ticket to the Commissar's office, Guardsman!

Close-minded leadership like that is a one-way ticket to our collective graves, sir!

Everyone pay attention to Private Selym here, he will now demonstrate how to correctly catch a Boltpistol Bolt with our teeth. *BLAM*

Just nooo... zero interest in 8th now

 ForceChoke wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.

Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.

Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.

"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"

"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"

On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.

Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Let's recap. Have I ever said anything offensive to you directly to warrant such blatant insult? Or could it be that you simply are really really in love with 8th edition? Or that other people might find the new rules akin something that might be more suited for recess or pre school. Anyway HOW was quoting a previous humorous comment and reciprocating their idea trolling?

You literally make no sense and I would ask you politely to stop the character assault

Also please don't respond.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.

Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.

"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"

"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"

On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.

Exactly this is why I will not play 8th. Also I don't understand that mentality at all. When people hate something that used to be great. Like the ability to shoot at your chosen target or at least at unit you want to. How do you get off calling them a troll? No one is trolling when they dislike something and express an opinion this whole thread is based on that idea.

Why?

 ForceChoke wrote:
Let's recap. Have I ever said anything offensive to you directly to warrant such blatant insult? Or could it be that you simply are really really in love with 8th edition? And that other people might find the new rules akin something that might be more suited for recess or pre school. Anyway HOW was quoting a previous humors comment and reciprocating their idea trolling?

You literally make no sense and I would ask you politely to stop the character assault

Also please don't respond.

It was more to do with the fact that you quite blatantly overacted to a mechanic which isn't really that bad.
1. Every edition before 8th allowed you to hide characters in units anyway so that you couldn't shoot them.
2. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of reason to move slightly closer to the character so that you can shoot it.
3. We have split fire now, so say one poxwalker can be easily dealt with using a few shots allowing the rest of your squad to open fire on the Lord.

This edition is unfortunetly not as easy as point and click to win.

Also "please don't respond"? And your trying to convince me you aren't a troll?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.

"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"

"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"

People are making this mechanic out to be way more powerful than it actually is, I've played people who tried to do these kind of exploits and it isn't hard at all to counter.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
Let's recap. Have I ever said anything offensive to you directly to warrant such blatant insult? Or could it be that you simply are really really in love with 8th edition? And that other people might find the new rules akin something that might be more suited for recess or pre school. Anyway HOW was quoting a previous humors comment and reciprocating their idea trolling?

You literally make no sense and I would ask you politely to stop the character assault

Also please don't respond.

It was more to do with the fact that you quite blatantly overacted to a mechanic which isn't really that bad.
1. Every edition before 8th allowed you to hide characters in units anyway so that you couldn't shoot them.
2. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of reason to move slightly closer to the character so that you can shoot it.
3. We have split fire now, so say one poxwalker can be easily dealt with using a few shots allowing the rest of your squad to open fire on the Lord.

This edition is unfortunetly not as easy as point and click to win.

Also "please don't respond"? And your trying to convince me you aren't a troll?

I'm trying to say that I find your insults not worth my time and entirely off the mark. Please stop thank you. A very succinct request. I don't wish to engage with a one sided insulting narrative. Thank you.

It sounds bad on paper but it's really not in game. It's just fun to make fun of.

The characters don't join units anymore, so they need some measure of protection, otherwise only the hardiest of characters would even be playable.

They are typically force multipliers that add a lot of depth to the game, and you have to be very careful with them, because as soon as they, personally, are the closest model to an enemy, they can absolutely be targeted and shot to hell. So you need to have your character protected from deep strike possibilities as well as from the front.

Also snipers are a thing if you really don't like characters. I tried out a list a couple days ago that has a bastion full of sniper fire. They downed a character in each of the first two turns.

 ForceChoke wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.

Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.

"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"

"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"

On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.

Exactly this is why I will not play 8th. Also I don't understand that mentality at all. When people hate something that used to be great. Like the ability to shoot at your chosen target or at least at unit you want to. How do you get off calling them a troll? No one is trolling when they dislike something and express an opinion this whole thread is based on that idea.

Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
Let's recap. Have I ever said anything offensive to you directly to warrant such blatant insult? Or could it be that you simply are really really in love with 8th edition? And that other people might find the new rules akin something that might be more suited for recess or pre school. Anyway HOW was quoting a previous humors comment and reciprocating their idea trolling?

You literally make no sense and I would ask you politely to stop the character assault

Also please don't respond.

It was more to do with the fact that you quite blatantly overacted to a mechanic which isn't really that bad.
1. Every edition before 8th allowed you to hide characters in units anyway so that you couldn't shoot them.
2. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of reason to move slightly closer to the character so that you can shoot it.
3. We have split fire now, so say one poxwalker can be easily dealt with using a few shots allowing the rest of your squad to open fire on the Lord.

This edition is unfortunetly not as easy as point and click to win.

Also "please don't respond"? And your trying to convince me you aren't a troll?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.

"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"

"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"

People are making this mechanic out to be way more powerful than it actually is, I've played people who tried to do these kind of exploits and it isn't hard at all to counter.

It is not trolling to NOT wish to do something. I don't like putting sand in my eye. Why would I be trolling by not wanting to do it. My friends all started around 3rd and 4th Are not interested in the new rules. It hardly makes us trolls. No one is overreacting. We just don't want to play anymore. Thanks for coming out.

 andysonic1 wrote:
...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.

(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)

Yeah it's really not that much different from when they were buried in a durable unit. Now all you have to do is get an angle on him where he's the closest. Before he could sit in front of a unit and LOS wounds back to chaff dudes all day anytime a shot came in he personally didn't want to tank. Shoutout to chapter master smashfether.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.

(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)

True! But if you couldn't in 8th they would be removed in one turn to long ranged shooting and every army would require you to bring that long ranged shooting or you would not be competitive and we would just enter the 7th death spiral of "I need this unit to be competitive".

 Purifier wrote:


It isn't. He has misunderstood the actual problem. The problem is that a flamer, disregarding the fact that it should basically never be able to reach if you play that mach 7 flier right, can put more wounds on the flier per points cost of the flamer as compared to a more traditional anti-air weapon.

You could say the flamestorm is better than skyhammer and skyspear (against T6), but that's about it and really ignores the difference between 60" and 8".

GW either places higher value on skyhammer, because it comes only on a flyer or they value variable damage more.

Heavy Flamer (17 points) vs T6/7 Flyer
0.6 -- .035 per point

Flamestorm (30 points) vs T6:
2.3 -- .077 per point

Flamestorm (30 points) vs T7:
1.6 -- .053 per point



Icarus Stormcannon (17 points) vs T6:
1.3 -- .076 per point

Icarus Stormcannon (17 points) vs T7:
1 -- .059 per point

Skyhammer (24 points) vs T6:
1.3 -- .054 per point

Skyhammer (24 points) vs T7:
1 -- .042 per point

Skyspear (30 points) vs T6/T7:
1.7 -- .057 per point

 andysonic1 wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A heavily armed and armored space marine captain is advancing alone towards you, with both the intent and ability to tear your unit to shreds. You start to take aim at your impending doom, but your cultist squad buddy points out that, in the opposite direction, there is a guardsmen squad trying their best to look non-threatening while hiding in cover, and they are 1% closer to you than the captain. You completely forget about the angry marine to take shots at the guard.

Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit.

Yet another reason to go back to 5th or 7th

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.

"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"

"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"

On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.

Exactly this is why I will not play 8th. Also I don't understand that mentality at all. When people hate something that used to be great. Like the ability to shoot at your chosen target or at least at unit you want to. How do you get off calling them a troll? No one is trolling when they dislike something and express an opinion this whole thread is based on that idea.

Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.

Let's recap The way it was described above seems to be the closer unit... NOT necessarily in front of your HQ I have not read the rules because I am waiting for reviews. And it is not Trolling. But since white knights jump out of the wood work when a new edition comes out, I would probably get further in life sticking a cactus in all my orifices then trying to engage in reasoned discussion.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slave wrote:
Unless you , ya know, aim it at your self by accident and shoot yourself......I dunno, while running, in the dark, carrying a blinding bright weapon that emits the same stuff the sun does..... What could go wrong with running, in the dark, with a weapon that fires barley contained sun jets?

Pretty sure a geneforged supersoldier in half a ton of self stabilising and strength enhancing armour could handle that.

And They Shall Know No Fear, But They Shall Accidentally Press The "Don't Press Dat" Button!

When you say that, why do I think this?

From "Fifth Element".

 ForceChoke wrote:


Let's recap The way it was described above seems to be the closer unit... NOT necessarily in front of your HQ I have not read the rules because I am waiting for reviews. And it is not Trolling. But since white knights jump out of the wood work when a new edition comes out, I would probably get further in life sticking a cactus in all my orifices then trying to engage in reasoned discussion.

You are in no way engaging in reasoned discussion when you say "Is this an actual rule? You cant aim at a chosen target? I will Never play 8th if this is the case. It stupidly easy to exploit." and haven't even read or played with the rules.

Either the model is in a place where simply moving will make it the closest target or the other player isn't stupid and has properly hidden the HQ near other units so as to remove nearly any ambiguity.

Ah, the top most comment was just ambiguous enough to blow everything out of proportions and you were never actually corrected when you asked if this was the actual rule. Well I would suggest reading the rulebook or a leak of the rule book or an engage in a reasoned discussion of the rulebook somewhere that is actually reasonably discussing the rules. You entered a thread about "silly things 8th has brought" which is mostly just "things I disagree with in the rules". You'd find far better discussion in the Tactics section.

ForceChoke wrote:I'm trying to say that I find your insults not worth my time and entirely off the mark. Please stop thank you. A very succinct request. I don't wish to engage with a one sided insulting narrative. Thank you.

Once again, this is why I think your a troll: literally the only 'insult' I sent your way was the "Observe: the troll", when you said you weren't trolling I made an argument as to why the mechanic isn't a reason to not play 8th but then you ignored that and are refusing to give any kind of argument in your defence.

ForceChoke wrote:It is not trolling to NOT wish to do something. I don't like putting sand in my eye. Why would I be trolling by not wanting to do it. My friends all started around 3rd and 4th Are not interested in the new rules. It hardly makes us trolls. No one is overreacting. We just don't want to play anymore. Thanks for coming out.

That's fine enough, you don't want to play, doesn't mean that on a discussion forum we can't discuss why the changes to 40k aren't bad.

ForceChoke wrote:Let's recap The way it was described above seems to be the closer unit... NOT necessarily in front of your HQ I have not read the rules because I am waiting for reviews. And it is not Trolling. But since white knights jump out of the wood work when a new edition comes out, I would probably get further in life sticking a cactus in all my orifices then trying to engage in reasoned discussion.

It is perhaps a silly rule when the two units are on either side of the firing unit but if you actually play the game you realise 1. this kind of situation hardly ever happens and 2. the game is far more balanced because of it.

And no one is jumping out blindly defending 8th ed, we are correcting those who are blindly hating on 8th without even playing it.

GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING TIME!

RULE #1 - BE POLITE.

Calling another user a troll?

NOT POLITE.

IF you think a post breaks the rules of the site - just report it an move on.

IF you don't want to interact or respond to a particular user?

Just IGNORE them - figuratively or literally using the excellent "Ignore" feature here.

Do NOT ask them to stop posting, responding, etc.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.

(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)

(Tbf, those were all exclusively Turn 1 casualties, and were only taken by people who didn't want to win)

 Selym wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.

(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)

(Tbf, those were all exclusively Turn 1 casualties, and were only taken by people who didn't want to win)

I won with them.....

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.

(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)

(Tbf, those were all exclusively Turn 1 casualties, and were only taken by people who didn't want to win)

I won with them.....

Tbf, whether you won with those units depended on whether your opponant had brought the Rock to your Scissors or whether they had brought paper instead.