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 mrhappyface wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
...Oh no I can't shoot the character directly who is behind another unit now! This is so much worse than 7th where I couldn't shoot at the character directly when they are buried in a unit! This is why he called you a troll.

(Though, to be fair, you couldn't hide Avatars, Daemon Princes, or character Dreadnaughts in units in 7th.)

(Tbf, those were all exclusively Turn 1 casualties, and were only taken by people who didn't want to win)

I won with them.....

Tbf, whether you won with those units depended on whether your opponant had brought the Rock to your Scissors or whether they had brought paper instead.

I found "Warhammer 40,000" in the dictionary, and this is what it said:

The main difference at hand is simple:

In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).

In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.

In the scenario described, a Space Marine captain threatening to assault your unit is less dangerous than a Guardsman squad anyway.

The rules have changed. Captain Bikehammer is not very dangerous anymore.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The main difference at hand is simple:

In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).

In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.

Have you played a game of 8th where this was a problem? I've played against DE, DG, IG and Orks and in none of those games was it a problem that I couldn't snipe my opponents characters, it just meant I had to think more tactically about how I split up my shooting/positioned my army.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The main difference at hand is simple:

In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).

In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.

You could hardly snipe them out. You had to hit them with a 6, wound (which failed half the time) and then hope they failed the 2+ LOS! then fail their save. About three times.

pm713 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The main difference at hand is simple:

In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).

In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.

You could hardly snipe them out. You had to hit them with a 6, wound (which failed half the time) and then hope they failed the 2+ LOS! then fail their save. About three times.

You didn't need Precision Shot for sniping; I usually found with my unit of Horrors was that it was surprisingly easy to choose where my opponent started removing casualties from; it was an oddity of how Brotherhood of Psykers worked but it still led to comedy as I could go "yup, that Gravcannon must roll to save". That said, ironically the best way to snipe out sergeants/heavies was barrage artillery.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
That said, ironically the best way to snipe out sergeants/heavies was barrage artillery.

That was a massive weakness of 7th core rules and is a massive weakness in 30k. with 8th they address one issue (character sniping) and create 10 more, I mean, the fact that artillery is good AA and it's often impossible to target characters but supersonic jet fighters are an easy target.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The main difference at hand is simple:

In 7th, casualties were "closest model first", and Look Out Sir had an effective range of 6". Maybe it should have been 3" or not, but that's splitting hairs now; you could work around characters tanking, or snipe out characters if you really needed to, as worst comes to worst they were only hiding in one unit (exception for Barkstars of course).

In 8th, a Character can stand out completely in the open, unable to be targeted any at all targeting until *all* other closer models are slain. Not only that, but the defender chooses all casualties, so you may end up having to chew through a *lot* of models in order to have a chance.

You could hardly snipe them out. You had to hit them with a 6, wound (which failed half the time) and then hope they failed the 2+ LOS! then fail their save. About three times.

You didn't need Precision Shot for sniping; I usually found with my unit of Horrors was that it was surprisingly easy to choose where my opponent started removing casualties from; it was an oddity of how Brotherhood of Psykers worked but it still led to comedy as I could go "yup, that Gravcannon must roll to save". That said, ironically the best way to snipe out sergeants/heavies was barrage artillery.

My experience was most of the time you did. Important stuff was in the middle.

40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.

Alcibiades wrote:
40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.

Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.

 Desubot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.

Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.

I dunno about you, but even if the flyers were akin to WWI Triplanes, or jury-rigged Biafra Babies, flamethrowers are still a bit of a stretch regardless!

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.

Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.

I dunno about you, but even if the flyers were akin to WWI Triplanes, or jury-rigged Biafra Babies, flamethrowers are still a bit of a stretch regardless!

aint talking about flamethrowers.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.

Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.

I dunno about you, but even if the flyers were akin to WWI Triplanes, or jury-rigged Biafra Babies, flamethrowers are still a bit of a stretch regardless!

They just play Limbo. How low can you fly?

Flamethrowers? I prefer to destroy Planes and enemy Flyers with Stormhammers and Vanguards Veterans!

Just homerun that b**ch back to his planet!

 Galas wrote:
Flamethrowers? I prefer to destroy Planes and enemy Flyers with Stormhammers and Vanguards Veterans!

Just homerun that b**ch back to his planet!

^This guy knows how to deal with flyers.

 Desubot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
40K flyers are all very low-flying ground-hugging craft and none of them are anywhere near supersonic despite the use of the word. They are 50 feet up in the air maximum, and all the ones without "Airborne" obviously not even that, but rather skimming just above the surface of the ground. There is nothing silly at all about flamers being able to attack them.

Real flyers wouldnt even be on the table for all of 1/3ed of a turn.

Absolutely. So the only way to make them make sense is to imagine them as very slow very low flying ground-attack craft, in which case flamers hitting them is perfectly fine,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:


I dunno about you, but even if the flyers were akin to WWI Triplanes, or jury-rigged Biafra Babies, flamethrowers are still a bit of a stretch regardless!

They're not. WWI Triplanes fly high in the sky. 40K flyers are obviously more helicopter-ish things.

In other words, any flyer that could actually fit in the scale of a 40K game would be logically targetable by a flamer, because these things are obviously not high in the air at all and not very fast, and can't be if they are to interact with the ground stuff..

That real planes don't fly anywhere near this low is another issue. These ones do!

I don't think it's super logical. But it doesn't need to be either.

The value of a weapon is pointed based on it's damage output. The value of this edition is being able to take most anything and still be successful. If that means Salamanders toasting flyers off the board then so be it.

The drawbacks of flamers vs flyers are evident and people that keep peddling the opposite it do themselves a disservice.

Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think it's super logical. But it doesn't need to be either.

The value of a weapon is pointed based on it's damage output. The value of this edition is being able to take most anything and still be successful. If that means Salamanders toasting flyers off the board then so be it.

The drawbacks of flamers vs flyers are evident and people that keep peddling the opposite it do themselves a disservice.

Game wise doesn't matter for sure.

Fluff wise makes almost no sense considering how are you hurting a storm raven that is designed for atmospheric entry with flamethrowers that probably dont get near the temperatures that the hull normally would take.

perhaps they are jetting it into the open jump doors could make sense. its a lot of juggling around to make sense of it in fluff but ultimately in game it doesn't matter and it wont happen nearly that much unless some one was deliberately going out of their way to do it.

 Desubot wrote:

Game wise doesn't matter for sure.

Fluff wise makes almost no sense considering how are you hurting a storm raven that is designed for atmospheric entry with flamethrowers that probably dont get near the temperatures that the hull normally would take.

perhaps they are jetting it into the open jump doors could make sense. its a lot of juggling around to make sense of it in fluff but ultimately in game it doesn't matter and it wont happen nearly that much unless some one was deliberately going out of their way to do it.

Then again such a vehicle entering the atmosphere probably shouldn't have exposed missiles/weapons while doing so.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Game wise doesn't matter for sure.

Fluff wise makes almost no sense considering how are you hurting a storm raven that is designed for atmospheric entry with flamethrowers that probably dont get near the temperatures that the hull normally would take.

perhaps they are jetting it into the open jump doors could make sense. its a lot of juggling around to make sense of it in fluff but ultimately in game it doesn't matter and it wont happen nearly that much unless some one was deliberately going out of their way to do it.

Then again such a vehicle entering the atmosphere probably shouldn't have exposed missiles/weapons while doing so.

Literally unplayable.

Its almost as if the Stormraven was a terrible design from day 1.
5th ed 40k and onward GW had some rather...questionable ideas concerning model design.

Remember dreadknights? Those were 5th ed. Necron vehicles, with their weakpoints hanging out? Ditto.
Those bug eyed chaos mechs, the half dragon and that toilet paper apostle? Same edition.
Pumbagores? Pretty sure that around the same time period.

6th and 7th ed wasn't much better. You had the stormsurge, with its little balcony then.

 MagicJuggler wrote:


To be fair, it *is* rather easy to exploit. As a side effect, Tau armies are now Gun Drones, with Shas'o Commanders and nary a regular Crisis Suit in place.

"Shoot those Xenos war-machines! They're shooting up our army to shreds, and they're standing out in the open in the middle of nowhere!"

"Can't do commander. Skeet-shooting these flying disks is way too much fun!"

On an unrelated note, Eldar Farseer Ghosthelms stop all Mortal Wounds on a 5+, be they from Perils, sniper rifles, or Spore Mines.

That would happen regardless of core rules, due to Savior Protocols.

Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.

Triangles are a thing. I could easily do:

...C...
../.\..
./...\.
D.....D

Or so, where C is the commander, D is the drone, and the Imperials are firing from south. Even if they draw a perfectly straight line to the Commander, and the Commander is 18" from any Drones, it can't be shot. Because the Guardsmen have ADD or so.

I guess the ghosthelms permit the farseers to better see the future so they can avoid the mortal wounds?

Best I can come up with fluff wise

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.

And let's not forget that there are times when even the extreme abuse of this rule can be explained by fluff.

Can't shoot the Avatar? Off-screen Eldar psykers are screwing with your eyesight.
Can't shoot the Daemon Prince? What are the odds you're not in a least a miniature warp storm?
Can't shoot the UM Chaplain? Plot Armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 admironheart wrote:
I guess the ghosthelms permit the farseers to better see the future so they can avoid the mortal wounds?

Best I can come up with fluff wise

Mine plays Limbo with bullets.

 Selym wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.

And let's not forget that there are times when even the extreme abuse of this rule can be explained by fluff.

Can't shoot the Avatar? Off-screen Eldar psykers are screwing with your eyesight.
Can't shoot the Daemon Prince? What are the odds you're not in a least a miniature warp storm?
Can't shoot the UM Chaplain? Plot Armour.

Plot Armor belongs with Movie Marines, and their The Script Writers Hate Us and Stunt Doubles Special rules, instead of it being part and parcel of the core rules in that manner.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.

Triangles are a thing. I could easily do:

...C...
../.\..
./...\.
D.....D

Or so, where C is the commander, D is the drone, and the Imperials are firing from south. Even if they draw a perfectly straight line to the Commander, and the Commander is 18" from any Drones, it can't be shot. Because the Guardsmen have ADD or so.

The drones can still get in the way and block the shot. Remember the battlefield isn't static. That's a quirk of turn based gaming.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.

Triangles are a thing. I could easily do:

...C...
../.\..
./...\.
D.....D

Or so, where C is the commander, D is the drone, and the Imperials are firing from south. Even if they draw a perfectly straight line to the Commander, and the Commander is 18" from any Drones, it can't be shot. Because the Guardsmen have ADD or so.

That is true for pretty much every army, not sure why you singled out Tau. The drone hordes are more a product of pricing inefficiency. Rumors of the demise of crisis teams has been greatly exaggerated.

xmbk wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its more like the drones are getting in the way of the line of fire rather than there being a clear shot and the troops not taking it. GW said as much anyway, something about not being able to pick out a single person in battle due to all the stuff that's going on. Its just another abstraction.

Triangles are a thing. I could easily do:

...C...
../.\..
./...\.
D.....D

Or so, where C is the commander, D is the drone, and the Imperials are firing from south. Even if they draw a perfectly straight line to the Commander, and the Commander is 18" from any Drones, it can't be shot. Because the Guardsmen have ADD or so.

That is true for pretty much every army, not sure why you singled out Tau. The drone hordes are more a product of pricing inefficiency. Rumors of the demise of crisis teams has been greatly exaggerated.

It's potentially more egregious for the Tau, by merit of the fact their commanders have relevant guns, and care less about being a limited-radius buff-aura.