Are there any? I've not seen any mentioned in any reviews. If not, where would the points for the new units be found. If they are, will they be adjusting points values of units from the index? The internet seems to have concluded that the stormraven is far too strong for its points, so it'd be nice to see them adjust it now they have feedback.

They reduced the cost of inceptors by 15 pts, for one.

sossen wrote:
They reduced the cost of inceptors by 15 pts, for one.

that's pretty awesome, brings em back, amusingly to around what they where in the dark imperium box. heh.

Hmm I think the storm raven is fine. I don't Field them but have played against them about every other game and never had a problem.

We keep seeing those former OP tau and Eldar lists not being as reliable as they were in 7th so those players are now complaining about just about anything. I play foot Marines I think the game is a lot more balanced now.

So they ARE in the book then? That's definitely a positive if so. From what I'd heard inceptors were pretty bad, so that's a good move on their part at least.

And stormravens are being spammed by every second list in the ETC. I'm sure playing against one is fine (like playing against one riptide was fine in the last edition). When they're spammed and wipe the table with their opponents it shows they're a bit good.

Then don't play with a person who spams them... those lists are extremely competitive lists. Other armies are capable of spamming units also. Looking at you Orks, Nids, and Guard. For fun I played an Ork competitive list and Guard competitive list and got crushed. This edition focuses on bodies. I play friendly games mostly and think the game is fairly balanced.

Those competitive players who are used to 7th armies being the bee's knees had a rude awakening with 8th and I see those former Tau and Eldar players complaining a lot... especially how Nids and Orks are so competitive again. I've seen Ork armies move/advance/waghhh/and charge over half their army on turn 1 and slaughter this poor Tau army and then he complained. I saw a Eldar player get tabled by a SM army who brought 1 storm raven and then he complained the storm raven was OP... people will always complain.

I know other units have undercosted units. It'd be nice if they rebalanced them when they get round to them. I'm fully aware that my guard should get a hefty points increase on several units to bring them into line with most other armies.

I'm just hoping they rebalance units to make the game better as a whole - buffing units/armies that need it and nerfing ones that are far ahead of the power curve. The most obvious ones that I can think of in the SM codex are stormravens, though Guilliman and razorbacks both seem fairly strong for their points too.

Errr, no, guard don't really need a points increase.

One could argue... 400 conscripts plus additional units in a 2000 point list is a little ridiculous. But you proved my point to you they are okay. To me ravens are okay but someone will always complain.

usmcmidn wrote:
One could argue... 400 conscripts plus additional units in a 2000 point list is a little ridiculous. But you proved my point to you they are okay. To me ravens are okay but someone will always complain.

The only thing making conscripts more powerful than intended is synergy with orders. Nerfing their cost up to be equal in cost to guardsmen would mean there's little to no reason to take them over guardsmen. Nerfing the cost of Guardsmen up to compensate would hurt Guard an incredible amount, and force Guard players to rely even more upon the arguably even more broken Tempestus squads.

So basically, it's the old problem. There's a screw that needs tightening. Do you pick up the screwdriver, or the battleaxe?

And the same problem lies with the Stormraven.

C'mon guys, at least wait till the second page to start derailing.

BrianDavion wrote:

sossen wrote:
They reduced the cost of inceptors by 15 pts, for one.

that's pretty awesome, brings em back, amusingly to around what they where in the dark imperium box. heh.

I expect we will see this with a lot of the primaris stuff from DI and the other sets, as it looks like most of the testing for those boxes was self contained. This is one of the first times I've ever seen new GW models and units be almost universally overcosted, even the stuff that's just new models for old units like plague marines suffered from this.

 Melissia wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
One could argue... 400 conscripts plus additional units in a 2000 point list is a little ridiculous. But you proved my point to you they are okay. To me ravens are okay but someone will always complain.

The only thing making conscripts more powerful than intended is synergy with orders. Nerfing their cost up to be equal in cost to guardsmen would mean there's little to no reason to take them over guardsmen. Nerfing the cost of Guardsmen up to compensate would hurt Guard an incredible amount, and force Guard players to rely even more upon the arguably even more broken Tempestus squads.

So basically, it's the old problem. There's a screw that needs tightening. Do you pick up the screwdriver, or the battleaxe?

And the same problem lies with the Stormraven.

Agreed, you can say this about other units in the game as well. It's the nature of the beast. I rarely play competitive games and I play more for fun. If I get tabled, hey I got to go out and play a fun game of 40k with friends. I do know some who take the game to seriously trying to break rules and armies, but again it's the nature of the beast. I say leave it alone for now.

No army needs point increases or points decreases. Some units in some armies need rebalances. Thats how you make a balanced game. You don't stop tweaking the units that are on top and at the bottom until a point where they are all near the middle.

usmcmidn wrote:
Then don't play with a person who spams them... those lists are extremely competitive lists. Other armies are capable of spamming units also. Looking at you Orks, Nids, and Guard. For fun I played an Ork competitive list and Guard competitive list and got crushed. This edition focuses on bodies. I play friendly games mostly and think the game is fairly balanced.

Those competitive players who are used to 7th armies being the bee's knees had a rude awakening with 8th and I see those former Tau and Eldar players complaining a lot... especially how Nids and Orks are so competitive again. I've seen Ork armies move/advance/waghhh/and charge over half their army on turn 1 and slaughter this poor Tau army and then he complained. I saw a Eldar player get tabled by a SM army who brought 1 storm raven and then he complained the storm raven was OP... people will always complain.

For those of us who like competitive tournament play, "don't play with that guy" is not an option.

In addition, the 6 Stormraven 2k list is waaaaaay different than what you are describing. Run the math on it's alpha strike a bit.

That said, I'm not for nerfs yet. We're still trying to make a meta.

On-topic: do we know of any point changes to Roubute?

Yeah, part of the problem is we are about to watch the the minimal meta we have get upset with each new codex, even without points being adjusted due to feedback. This next year will have too many rapid fire changes for that tbh.

 Galas wrote:
No army needs point increases or points decreases. Some units in some armies need rebalances. Thats how you make a balanced game. You don't stop tweaking the units that are on top and at the bottom until a point where they are all near the middle.

Well... Yes and No.
Balance is achieved thru doing both.
Merely always tweaking rules won't result in a balanced game
Merely always tweaking costs won't result in a balanced game

You need..................... a balance of both

 Melissia wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
One could argue... 400 conscripts plus additional units in a 2000 point list is a little ridiculous. But you proved my point to you they are okay. To me ravens are okay but someone will always complain.

The only thing making conscripts more powerful than intended is synergy with orders. Nerfing their cost up to be equal in cost to guardsmen would mean there's little to no reason to take them over guardsmen. Nerfing the cost of Guardsmen up to compensate would hurt Guard an incredible amount, and force Guard players to rely even more upon the arguably even more broken Tempestus squads.

So basically, it's the old problem. There's a screw that needs tightening. Do you pick up the screwdriver, or the battleaxe?

And the same problem lies with the Stormraven.

Commissars are the problem, not Conscripts. Make Commissars not work with conscripts and you solve the problem.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
One could argue... 400 conscripts plus additional units in a 2000 point list is a little ridiculous. But you proved my point to you they are okay. To me ravens are okay but someone will always complain.

The only thing making conscripts more powerful than intended is synergy with orders. Nerfing their cost up to be equal in cost to guardsmen would mean there's little to no reason to take them over guardsmen. Nerfing the cost of Guardsmen up to compensate would hurt Guard an incredible amount, and force Guard players to rely even more upon the arguably even more broken Tempestus squads.

So basically, it's the old problem. There's a screw that needs tightening. Do you pick up the screwdriver, or the battleaxe?

And the same problem lies with the Stormraven.

Commissars are the problem, not Conscripts. Make Commissars not work with conscripts and you solve the problem.

I'm curious why they always succeed, I mean there's many known regiments that end up killing abusive Commissars on the field.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
One could argue... 400 conscripts plus additional units in a 2000 point list is a little ridiculous. But you proved my point to you they are okay. To me ravens are okay but someone will always complain.

The only thing making conscripts more powerful than intended is synergy with orders. Nerfing their cost up to be equal in cost to guardsmen would mean there's little to no reason to take them over guardsmen. Nerfing the cost of Guardsmen up to compensate would hurt Guard an incredible amount, and force Guard players to rely even more upon the arguably even more broken Tempestus squads.

So basically, it's the old problem. There's a screw that needs tightening. Do you pick up the screwdriver, or the battleaxe?

And the same problem lies with the Stormraven.

Commissars are the problem, not Conscripts. Make Commissars not work with conscripts and you solve the problem.

I'm curious why they always succeed, I mean there's many known regiments that end up killing abusive Commissars on the field.

that'd be an intreasting rule, "Make a LDR check, if you fail the comissair takes 1 mortal wound"?

 DoomMouse wrote:
When they're spammed and wipe the table with their opponents it shows they're a bit good.

Alternatively, it may show that one guy won a GT by spamming them, the list got internet famous and now everyone wants to try it.

Don't be alarmed by seeing the same lists over and over in GTs. Be alarmed when you see the same list WINNING in GTs over and over again.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
When they're spammed and wipe the table with their opponents it shows they're a bit good.

Alternatively, it may show that one guy won a GT by spamming them, the list got internet famous and now everyone wants to try it.

Don't be alarmed by seeing the same lists over and over in GTs. Be alarmed when you see the same list WINNING in GTs over and over again.

Indeed, some lists can be winners purely by virtue of suprise factor, but once everyone is ready for it can shut it down fast and easy

I read on another forum Hellblasters were reduced by 4 power so I'm assuming their base cost went down. If so I'm thinking a squad of 10 in a new repulsor will be a good heavy hitter unit

Even 2 storm ravens are crazy OP. They can fire 3 heavy weapons, one with 72" range and 3 damage, and storm bolters at full BS will zooming across the table with -1 to hit. 2 of them means 4 multi melta, 4 missiles, 24 ass cannon and 24-48 bolter shots before you even move (assuming alpha strike). All on a 3+. With 14 wounds (meaning an average of 5 las cannon WOUNDS to kill one).

They are dramatically undercosted. They hit like a superheavy.

 Talamare wrote:

 Galas wrote:
No army needs point increases or points decreases. Some units in some armies need rebalances. Thats how you make a balanced game. You don't stop tweaking the units that are on top and at the bottom until a point where they are all near the middle.

Well... Yes and No.
Balance is achieved thru doing both.
Merely always tweaking rules won't result in a balanced game
Merely always tweaking costs won't result in a balanced game

You need..................... a balance of both

I agree. Most of the imbalance cases are because a unit is undercosted. Or overcosted. But other times is about rules.
For example, you can make Dreadnoughts very OP making them a 20 point model with their 7th stats. But that model isn't supposed to be that. 100-200 points for a Walking machine of war is good. They just needed better rules to reflect that cost.

Isn't that why terminators got their invulnerable save back in the day? There was a little chapter approved article I remember, about how terminators seemed to be the right cost for what you'd expect, by were to easy to kill with all the ways to ignore armor. So they gave them an invulnerable save.

sossen wrote:
They reduced the cost of inceptors by 15 pts, for one.

Per model or per squad? Because either is good by me, but I think they could go down by 15 pts per model and still be appropriately priced.

Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Those sound like good changes if they also apply to DA/BA/SW/etc. versions as well.

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

Trouble is, how willing will GW be to change points now that they have these big $50 codexes out? Doubt they will make any changes to the codex, which is kinda pointless. Didn't even have the indexes out for a few months to get results back on games played. Same 'ole, same 'ole...it will be codex power creep per usual, and everyone will soak it up.

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's.. very strange

Those two aren't exactly commonly taken if I remember right.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's not bizarre unless you're a GW fanboy. It is not healthy for the game to arbitrarily lower point costs to sell models.

 quickfuze wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's not bizarre unless you're a GW fanboy. It is not healthy for the game to arbitrarily lower point costs to sell models.

Arbitrarily.. So these models were 100% balanced and are now undercosted in every list then right?

 quickfuze wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's not bizarre unless you're a GW fanboy. It is not healthy for the game to arbitrarily lower point costs to sell models.

Wow that ship has sailed fast.
I think we need to have a neew Godwing lay for internet. The first to use the term fanboy/white knight or hater loses!

 Galas wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Landspeeders/storms are 10 pts cheaper base.
Whirlwinds are 15pts cheaper base.
No point change on flyers as far as I can remember (may be wrong about the stormraven weapons).
Scout bikers, bikers and attack bikes all got a little cheaper.

Not sure if company vets can take bikes now? Not sure I saw an entry for them.

Got to free up points in those existing collections so you will buy the new primaris crap

What a bizarre complaint to make.

It's not bizarre unless you're a GW fanboy. It is not healthy for the game to arbitrarily lower point costs to sell models.

Wow that ship has sailed fast.
I think we need to have a neew Godwing lay for internet. The first to use the term fanboy/white knight or hater loses!

Galas' law?

 bullyboy wrote:
Trouble is, how willing will GW be to change points now that they have these big $50 codexes out? Doubt they will make any changes to the codex, which is kinda pointless. Didn't even have the indexes out for a few months to get results back on games played. Same 'ole, same 'ole...it will be codex power creep per usual, and everyone will soak it up.

Sadly yes.

That's not how Godwin's Law works. It's not a "LOL YOU MENTIONED NAZIS YOU LOSE" thing, it is simply a statement that "As a discussion progresses, the probability of Hitler or Nazis being mentioned approaches one".

But isn't that why the points are in the back of the Indexes, and I'd assume Codexes as well? So you can just print off the new points and stick it in that section of your book? I wouldn't mind constant tweaking at the cost of having to carry an extra sheet of paper or two, if we get a better game out of it.

I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Sweet goodness. Can't wait for the Tau codex. Or Dark Eldar or Deathwatch. I watched most of the dex review and while I expected a lot after Khradron Overlords this codex takes their content and quality to a whole new level. They also seem to be adjusting points.

It's damn near impossible at this point GW doesn't at least consider some of the feedback in changing Tau.

Also I hope Watch fortress Erioch gets mentioned.

SilverAlien wrote:
C'mon guys, at least wait till the second page to start derailing.

BrianDavion wrote:

sossen wrote:
They reduced the cost of inceptors by 15 pts, for one.

that's pretty awesome, brings em back, amusingly to around what they where in the dark imperium box. heh.

I expect we will see this with a lot of the primaris stuff from DI and the other sets, as it looks like most of the testing for those boxes was self contained. This is one of the first times I've ever seen new GW models and units be almost universally overcosted, even the stuff that's just new models for old units like plague marines suffered from this.

GW has done that many times, actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Sweet goodness. Can't wait for the Tau codex. Or Dark Eldar or Deathwatch. I watched most of the dex review and while I expected a lot after Khradron Overlords this codex takes their content and quality to a whole new level. They also seem to be adjusting points.

It's damn near impossible at this point GW doesn't at least consider some of the feedback in changing Tau.

Also I hope Watch fortress Erioch gets mentioned.

Let's hope the Tau don't get the 7th ed treatment. We'll be right back where we were.

Yeah the more I look at results I think we only need some small buffs. Even if we were in need of larger ones I think gradual buffs until it's just right is the way to go.

Meanwhile, BA are reduced to spamming a model I hate. I hope it gets jacked up in the codices or something. Feth that gak. Just hope our chapter tactic is better than IH. Yikes.

Martel732 wrote:
Meanwhile, BA are reduced to spamming a model I hate. I hope it gets jacked up in the codices or something. Feth that gak. Just hope our chapter tactic is better than IH. Yikes.

If nothing else, the Redemptor is definitely built in a way that it will have a Furioso Variant (all of the weapons are on one Sprue). I really hope that Descent of Angels lets let's us land right in our opponent's face.

usmcmidn wrote:
One could argue... 400 conscripts plus additional units in a 2000 point list is a little ridiculous. But you proved my point to you they are okay. To me ravens are okay but someone will always complain.

Stormravens are ok.... if the rulebook allows 1 flyer per 1000 points. Playing against 1-2 of those flyers is absolutely ok. But stormraven spam is not even 40k imho.

Spamming doesn't always mean building overpowered lists. Guards and orks can be tough with a lot of bodies but they don't win games due to their cheap troops. 400 conscripts are also hard to buy, build and paint while 6+ stormravens don't need that much effort.

Any news on the undercosted Guilliman?

Yeah if any model needed a tiny points hike its Gulliman.

 Gamgee wrote:
Yeah the more I look at results I think we only need some small buffs. Even if we were in need of larger ones I think gradual buffs until it's just right is the way to go.

it may also be that Tau are simply missing something that will be "army defining" if sept tactics and tau specific stragiums are something they're planning around, I could see Tau prior to their codex being weaker as a result. Tau are very much an army that lends itself to stratigums in particular.

Tau are still the worst army in the game. Even if they have been winning slightly more their win rate is still atrocious. If all the other armies are competitive without their codex then just adding in new rules won't help since it will more or less keep the standings the same barring truly massive creep in the codex rules 7th edition "balancing" style which I don't want.

You need to remember that every army will be getting this treatment so if they are all increased proportionally without any balancing done then Tau will still be the weakest.

The biggest thing is ML's being utterly terrible and a lack of cost effective heavy units. Our infantry are great, but out anti-tank options are lacking. I know commander spam is great, but I hate spamming commanders it seems weird from a lore point.

Regular Tau anti-tank should be viable not resorting to needing to spam commanders. Commanders buffs to the army need to be made stronger, but they need to be increased in price (but not over priced) and then they will be more balanced. So this would mean bringing Tau big suits down a little and especially crisis suits.

That or they could go the opposite and buff Tau shooting and add on abilities proportionate to their high costs.

you've got a number of units with fusion blasters and the hammerhead rail cannon is solid, the broadsides heavy rail cannon seems a decent ranged weapon,

so looking at Tau they do have some anti tank options, I assume the problem is they're a terriable points cost? that could be addressed given space marines are getting some points tweeks, and it seems to be point reductions as best we can tell. so if it's just a matter of "our anti tank options are a horriable value" there may, MAY be a light at the end of that tunnel

BrianDavion wrote:
you've got a number of units with fusion blasters and the hammerhead rail cannon is solid, the broadsides heavy rail cannon seems a decent ranged weapon,

so looking at Tau they do have some anti tank options, I assume the problem is they're a terriable points cost? that could be addressed given space marines are getting some points tweeks, and it seems to be point reductions as best we can tell

I have spoken about it way too many times. The math is out there. The data is out there. Most Tau stuff is way too expensive for what it does. The only viable comp list we have is commander spam supported by mixed infantry and drones. The only cost effective units we have are drones, commanders, and vespids. Our basic troops are so-so. You can't win battles on troops alone. Anyways the math is out there. The proof is out there. Even with some exceptional Tau player pulling in some wins recently we are the worst army in the game. Also I don't think he factored in the ATC team games where Tau got stomped which might have brought us back into our own bottom tier faction ranking. Tau players are hanging up their army in 8th when they wish they could be playing them. It's bad. The more time that goes on the more correct the Tau players saying all of this form the beginning were.

People believed the Tau haters hype in 7th and clearly the balancing way over reacted and basically killed them. I'm the only person in my local to have won a game and it was more or less due to me getting god tier rolls on my Ta'unar titian surviving a crazy alpha and taking out a third of his flyer spam.

BrianDavion wrote:
you've got a number of units with fusion blasters and the hammerhead rail cannon is solid, the broadsides heavy rail cannon seems a decent ranged weapon,

so looking at Tau they do have some anti tank options, I assume the problem is they're a terriable points cost? that could be addressed given space marines are getting some points tweeks, and it seems to be point reductions as best we can tell. so if it's just a matter of "our anti tank options are a horriable value" there may, MAY be a light at the end of that tunnel

Hammerhead vs 4 Las-Predator vs Standard T7 Tank

Hammerhead - 155 / ((1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 6/6 * 3.5) + (1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2)) = 87.18
Predator - 202 / (4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 38.95

New Predator at 190 points - 190 / (4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 36.64

Lower is better!

... What if ... Hammerhead/Railgun did 2d6 damage?
155 / ((1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 6/6 * 7) + (1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2)) = 46.5

then yeah, definatly needs some points adjustments. hopefully that'll come with the codex, or even Codex approved this christmas.,

What do the Tau have to do with Points values in the new SM codex?

Indeed.


One appreciates there's going to be comparisons made and so forth but let's not get too far off topic.


Ta.

Did the Razorback go up? Or Guilliman?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Did the Razorback go up? Or Guilliman?

EDIT: Wrong line. They are still 65 pts. The Land Speeders Storm and Drop Pod both went down 10 pts though.

Guiliman's price is always just out of frame.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Did the Razorback go up? Or Guilliman?

EDIT: Wrong line. They are still 65 pts. The Land Speeders Storm and Drop Pod both went down 10 pts though.

Guiliman's price is always just out of frame.

Any changes for Gun Costs?

 Talamare wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Did the Razorback go up? Or Guilliman?

EDIT: Wrong line. They are still 65 pts. The Land Speeders Storm and Drop Pod both went down 10 pts though.

Guiliman's price is always just out of frame.

Any changes for Gun Costs?

Every time someone shows them, they are too blurry to read for the most part. But from what I have seen, no weapon prices have changed.

Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

 vipoid wrote:
Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

They don't. They limit what you can and can't bring. In order to use them, the entire detachment must be composed of models from one Chapter. You cannot take allies in that detachment.

Sounds like the codex is a straight buff then. I guess they wanted to avoid the situation BA and DE had in early 8th when their codex came out and it made them both worse and presumably few people bought them as a result. I still think they would have done well to tone down the stronger models while buffing the weakest. I hope they deliver on their promise to recognise their mistakes (even small ones)

Besides the points costs, SM also have acquired the free buffs of chapter tactics, strategems and relics. Hope they hurry up with the other codexes so everyone is on a more level playing field.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

They don't. They limit what you can and can't bring. In order to use them, the entire detachment must be composed of models from one Chapter. You cannot take allies in that detachment.

Not a real downside

I'm concerned by the number of substantial price drops in the book. Especially when these are in addition to the other buffs in the book (Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Relics).

Has anything in the book gone up in price?

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

They don't. They limit what you can and can't bring. In order to use them, the entire detachment must be composed of models from one Chapter. You cannot take allies in that detachment.

Not a real downside

Limiting what you can take isn't a downside? That's news to me. I guess allies shenanigans weren't broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
I'm concerned by the number of substantial price drops in the book. Especially when these are in addition to the other buffs in the book (Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Relics).

Has anything in the book gone up in price?

Not as far as I can tell. To be fair though, many of the units that saw drops in price were terribly overpriced like the Vindicator, Drop Pods, and Inceptors.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is there any sign of Chapter Tactics having a cost?

They don't. They limit what you can and can't bring. In order to use them, the entire detachment must be composed of models from one Chapter. You cannot take allies in that detachment.

Not a real downside

Limiting what you can take isn't a downside? That's news to me. I guess allies shenanigans weren't broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
I'm concerned by the number of substantial price drops in the book. Especially when these are in addition to the other buffs in the book (Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Relics).

Has anything in the book gone up in price?

Not as far as I can tell.

You can easily put another detachment with allies there (and not necessarily in the same one)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Limiting what you can take isn't a downside? That's news to me.

Well, it depends on what you're not allowed to take and whether you planned to take it anyway.

Like, if you can't take Whirlwinds but never wanted to in the first place, then it's not a downside at all - it's a straight buff.

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Limiting what you can take isn't a downside? That's news to me.

Well, it depends on what you're not allowed to take and whether you planned to take it anyway.

Like, if you can't take Whirlwinds but never wanted to in the first place, then it's not a downside at all - it's a straight buff.

No, it isn't limitations on Space Marine units. The limitation is that you can only take Space Marine units and they all have to be from the same Chapter (so no mix and match like the Stormraven and Stormhawk list that won some tournaments already). So no Vindicare Assassins or Ratlings or whatever. You have to take them in a separate detachment, which either comes with mandatory slots or -1 CP.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
No, it isn't limitations on Space Marine units. The limitation is that you can only take Space Marine units and they all have to be from the same Chapter (so no mix and match like the Stormraven and Stormhawk list that won some tournaments already).

Oh, the horror. So Space Marines are restricted to using only units from their codex - which has substantially more units than any other army in the game.

You'll forgive me if I don't shed too many tears for those poor SM players.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So no Vindicare Assassins or Ratlings or whatever. You have to take them in a separate detachment, which either comes with mandatory slots or -1 CP.

Wow, so the army that already has access to more units than any other army has to take a whole second detachment to access anything from the entire Imperium.

Clearly SM players should petition GW to end the cruelty inflicted on them.

Are you done crying?

I never said that the limitation was a huge one. I said it was a limitation. And it isn't like every other army isn't going to get some form of Chapter Tactics anyway. GW flat out said as much. The bonuses from Chapter Tactics are good, but they aren't game breaking. And the fact that the units that can use them are about as appropriately priced as you can get doesn't hurt either. Chapter Tactics don't affect the units in the codex that people point to as a problem. Flyer Spam? Not affected.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Are you done crying?

I never said that the limitation was a huge one. I said it was a limitation. And it isn't like every other army isn't going to get some form of Chapter Tactics anyway. GW flat out said as much. The bonuses from Chapter Tactics are good, but they aren't game breaking. And the fact that the units that can use them are about as appropriately priced as you can get doesn't hurt either. Chapter Tactics don't affect the units in the codex that people point to as a problem. Flyer Spam? Not affected.

Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and specific Stratagem ARE gamebreaking atm

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Are you done crying?

I never said that the limitation was a huge one. I said it was a limitation. And it isn't like every other army isn't going to get some form of Chapter Tactics anyway. GW flat out said as much. The bonuses from Chapter Tactics are good, but they aren't game breaking. And the fact that the units that can use them are about as appropriately priced as you can get doesn't hurt either. Chapter Tactics don't affect the units in the codex that people point to as a problem. Flyer Spam? Not affected.

Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and specific Stratagem ARE gamebreaking atm

You won't hear an argument against that from me. I have said exactly as much regarding said Chapter Tactics (I called them broken), then, upon seeing their new Strategem, I revised my answer to them being LOL! Broken. But that is one Chapter Tactic. Most of the Chapter Tactics range from pretty bad (BT, IF, IH) to alright (WS, UM). Only Salamanders and Raven Guard stand out as being over the top. If Raven Guard tactics were ineffective against stuff that ignores cover, I think they would be more balanced.

You don't need anything to go up in price... just limit the number of fliers allowed in games to 2 or 3.... if you keep limiting things people are going to not be able to Field their favorite models.

Again those lists made are extremely competitive builds. If you play friendly games just ask your opponent not to bring 5 storm ravens because it won't be fun... or just don't play them. My local GW maybe has 50-100 40k players it's easy to find a game with someone else. Don't play a really competitive player and expect to win, then complain how broke his army is when you knowingly went into that game.... I see that all the time, every time a person loses I see the OMG his army is broke. But when that person wins and crushes another OMG my army is fine it was a fair game. Just enjoy it and talk to your opponent before you play. I believe it even says something like that in the rule book.

And again with Tau, they arnt as dominant as they were in 7th but they still win. I've still seen Tau players do very good where I play. People are just so used to them being able to sit back and mess anything up, well now armies can clear the board on turn one or be just as shooty (Orks/Nids and Guard). 8th is a tremendous improvement over 7th, yeh there are hiccups but time will hopefully fix it. Let's just relax and have fun.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Are you done crying?

Are you done failing comprehension?

Since when does 'not shedding tears' equal 'crying'?

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Are you done crying?

Are you done failing comprehension?

Since when does 'not shedding tears' equal 'crying'?

There are different forms of crying, but this post isn't exactly contributing to the topic.

I don't think the BT Chapter Tactics is so bad, but I do like the melee focus to it.. But I do feel it could've had a bit more too it, SM aren't really a primary melee race, though I wonder if that'll change once we see a few lists.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Ok so a new Codex.

1. Considerable points reduction on some units - apparently not a single unit increases cost - is that correct?
2. Extremely Powerful new Chapter Tactics - esp Raven Guard (no cost) (nominal list building skills needed to circumvent the "negative" - that specific detachment has to be on Chapter)
3. Loads of Strategems (CP only cost) so increased flexibility.
4. Relics (free!!!!) (minor CP cost for multiples)

Codex power creep is worrying evident - especially given that only 10 more before Christmas and mostly Marines (of different hues)

Relics are free? Where does that come from?

It isnt power creep when theres no Códices to compare
To see if this edition has power creep we need to wait for the second codex
But, those point reductions surprise me. Did they changed them At the last moment after index feedback?

No more rude posts directed at other posters - Rule #1 on Dakka is Be Polite!

Particularly, please stop going back and forth over "crying" - there are much more polite ways to make your point, and this is all really not relevant to the topic, either.

Thanks all

Asura Varuna wrote:
Relics are free? Where does that come from?

Various reviews and info on the threads - apparently a single relic costs nothing but you have to swap it for the appropriate item of wargear so you may have to buy that - so if you want a Relic Power sword - you need to buy one and then upgrade for free. A given model can only have a single Relic -so same as last edition - and hopefully will specifically include Tau's pseudo Relics this time...

It isnt power creep when theres no Códices to compare
To see if this edition has power creep we need to wait for the second codex

Well its certainly power creep over the indices - yes the second Codex will see if the increased power boosts are one of the prime selling points of the new Codex's or just the usual mix of Broken, good, bad and dismally balanced dexes.

Its a little fishy that the only apparent points changes this time round are reductions - especially given the discussions on certain flyers?

 Mr Morden wrote:

Well its certainly power creep over the indices - yes the second Codex will see if the increased power boosts are one of the prime selling points of the new Codex's or just the usual mix of Broken, good, bad and dismally balanced dexes.

Its a little fishy that the only apparent points changes this time round are reductions - especially given the discussions on certain flyers?

To be fair, this was probably final before 8th actually came out. Flyers are consistently very powerful across almost most factions -- the Stormraven is an outlier, but not too much of one -- so this just seems like a systematic error on GW's part.

Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

Naw, they will just say that they are the White Ravens.

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

My biggest concern is it's a little tricky to know what is strong or not when the Storm Raven is obscuring what is good.

It seems more reasonable to present the Storm Raven with a small nerf, than to buff literally EVERYTHING else to its level.

I don't know about other units, but Inceptors really needed that price drop, they were absurdly overcosted. They're probably OK now, which is nice as I really like the models.

But yeah, Stormraven needs a price increase.

I'm fine with points reductions. I'm not fine with no point increases.

 Crimson wrote:
I don't know about other units, but Inceptors really needed that price drop, they were absurdly overcosted. They're probably OK now, which is nice as I really like the models.

But yeah, Stormraven needs a price increase.

They are still pretty damn expensive at 60 pts per model with weapons. But they are at least not ludicrously overpriced anymore. And they hand out mortal wounds better as well.

I don't know if a price increase will help the Stormraven problem. If they increase it much at all, then people that aren't spamming it might find it hard to fit into their list. One Stormraven, like one Imperial Knight, and one Wraithknight, isn't generally a problem. It is when they are taken in groups of four or five that they become a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm fine with points reductions. I'm not fine with no point increases.

The video was blurry (probably intentionally), so it is quite possible that there are units went up in price. I just didn't see any.

I think anti-air should be significantly cheaper. But then there is the risk that Infantry units with Fly being screwed by that.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Ok so a new Codex.

1. Considerable points reduction on some units - apparently not a single unit increases cost - is that correct?
2. Extremely Powerful new Chapter Tactics - esp Raven Guard (no cost) (nominal list building skills needed to circumvent the "negative" - that specific detachment has to be on Chapter)
3. Loads of Strategems (CP only cost) so increased flexibility.
4. Relics (free!!!!) (minor CP cost for multiples)

Codex power creep is worrying evident - especially given that only 10 more before Christmas and mostly Marines (of different hues)

That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

So question, with all these point reductions for Space Marines, do Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Blood Angels have to stick with the old points until they each get their own individual codex?

Brandon_me wrote:
So question, with all these point reductions for Space Marines, do Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Blood Angels have to stick with the old points until they each get their own individual codex?

Unless it says in the Codex they don't they have to wait till their own codexes or a offical update from GW - another issue with the Codex update format.

might be able to Huse rule it though.

Likely these will be some of the 10 codexes updated before Christmas though.

That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

There are appears to be zero nerfs in the new Codex only bonuses - hence my worry - if this continues not a good thing except for sales as there will be armies that get nothing for 6, 8 or even 12 months - perhaps never. So its fine for me who has lots of armies but someone who plays one or two Index armies rather the Chosen ones... not so good.

re the Armies - I still think there should be an Imperial category to cover all those armies that mix and match across the Imperium.

Also huge disaprity in the number of games played between say Sisters (37) and Marines (200+) so difficult to compare, especially when many games will actually be Marines vs Marines.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Unless it says in the Codex they don't they have to wait till their own codexes or a offical update from GW - another issue with the Codex update format.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

sossen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Unless it says in the Codex they don't they have to wait till their own codexes or a offical update from GW - another issue with the Codex update format.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

LIke said - 10 codexes before Christmas - how many will be a different coloured Marine dex? I reckon 8.

GAdvance wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Ok so a new Codex.

1. Considerable points reduction on some units - apparently not a single unit increases cost - is that correct?
2. Extremely Powerful new Chapter Tactics - esp Raven Guard (no cost) (nominal list building skills needed to circumvent the "negative" - that specific detachment has to be on Chapter)
3. Loads of Strategems (CP only cost) so increased flexibility.
4. Relics (free!!!!) (minor CP cost for multiples)

Codex power creep is worrying evident - especially given that only 10 more before Christmas and mostly Marines (of different hues)

That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

We live in an era where a little data is a dangerous thing. We put some numbers on something and assume that means no further interpretation is needed. I'm not saying any armies need buffing/nerfing. I am saying that there is a lot of mathHammer that doesn't mean what people seem to think it means.

That's not mathhammer - just data from games reported. Not pretending to be anything. You draw your own conclusions out of it. Just data. You can add your games to the thread. It's on the first page of general discussion atm.

GAdvance wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Ok so a new Codex.

1. Considerable points reduction on some units - apparently not a single unit increases cost - is that correct?
2. Extremely Powerful new Chapter Tactics - esp Raven Guard (no cost) (nominal list building skills needed to circumvent the "negative" - that specific detachment has to be on Chapter)
3. Loads of Strategems (CP only cost) so increased flexibility.
4. Relics (free!!!!) (minor CP cost for multiples)

Codex power creep is worrying evident - especially given that only 10 more before Christmas and mostly Marines (of different hues)

That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

I don't think there should be a points increase... idk this reference but it seems the golden boys are getting crushed lol.

sossen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Unless it says in the Codex they don't they have to wait till their own codexes or a offical update from GW - another issue with the Codex update format.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

Thanks man!

GAdvance wrote:



That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

Now merge all the results based on their Keyword

Imperium, Eldar, Chaos, etc

 koooaei wrote:
That's not mathhammer - just data from games reported. Not pretending to be anything. You draw your own conclusions out of it. Just data. You can add your games to the thread. It's on the first page of general discussion atm.

Sure, whatever, but the fact remains that this data is basically useless for trying to figure out whether factions are balanced. It's an extremely misleading use of data.

 Talamare wrote:

GAdvance wrote:

Now merge all the results based on their Keyword

Imperium, Eldar, Chaos, etc

That doesn't sound right. If you treat it like that the Imperium will never get balanced.
Sure they have more possible alliances, but most people still run more individual armies.

Yes but thats an issue with having one vast faction with so many combinations.

Best you could do herer was have "pure" sub faction lists with a maximum points spend on non subfaction.

The table above also needs Games played column like the one on the thread?

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

1. No, the Raven Guard one isn't broken. It is strong. There's a difference.
2. How is Raven Guard gunline NOT fluffy?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

2. How is Raven Guard gunline NOT fluffy?

Search for Raven Guard on google and see how many jump packs are depicted in their art.

sossen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

2. How is Raven Guard gunline NOT fluffy?

Search for Raven Guard on google and see how many jump packs are depicted in their art.

They're a guerilla strike Chapter. They use Jump Packs but it isn't their actual focus.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're a guerilla strike Chapter. They use Jump Packs but it isn't their actual focus.

I agree, they are a guerilla strike chapter and not a gunline chapter.

sossen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're a guerilla strike Chapter. They use Jump Packs but it isn't their actual focus.

I agree, they are a guerilla strike chapter and not a gunline chapter.

Which fits gun lines more than noisy Jump Packs.

This is essentially the "White Scars only use bikes" argument. They are still a codex compliant chapter that uses more sneak attacks.

Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

+1

If you field 5 storm ravens in a 2000 point list killing all the infantry shouldn't be to difficult. Your main goal and focus will be taking cover, killing the enemy infantry and surviving the flyer attacks.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

Look at that, a nice way to curb flyer spam that doesn't screw over people that want to take one or two. Pretty nice.

As for the Raven Guard fluff, they have always been Sneaky Chapter first, Jump Pack Chapter second. The -1 to hit plays to Sneaky gunline because that is what they have been. Truthfully, I would rather it was +1 Cover even if they are in open field. I don't like that there are two completely different mechanisms for being hard to see.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

Look at that, a nice way to curb flyer spam that doesn't screw over people that want to take one or two. Pretty nice.

As for the Raven Guard fluff, they have always been Sneaky Chapter first, Jump Pack Chapter second. The -1 to hit plays to Sneaky gunline because that is what they have been. Truthfully, I would rather it was +1 Cover even if they are in open field. I don't like that there are two completely different mechanisms for being hard to see.

+1 to cover would have been even more broken. I mean... terminator tatical marines?

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

Look at that, a nice way to curb flyer spam that doesn't screw over people that want to take one or two. Pretty nice.

As for the Raven Guard fluff, they have always been Sneaky Chapter first, Jump Pack Chapter second. The -1 to hit plays to Sneaky gunline because that is what they have been. Truthfully, I would rather it was +1 Cover even if they are in open field. I don't like that there are two completely different mechanisms for being hard to see.

+1 to cover would have been even more broken. I mean... terminator tatical marines?

Cover can be mitigated though, the -1 to hit can't. BTW, I was talking +1 Cover when >12" away, if that makes any difference.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As for the Raven Guard fluff, they have always been Sneaky Chapter first, Jump Pack Chapter second. The -1 to hit plays to Sneaky gunline because that is what they have been. Truthfully, I would rather it was +1 Cover even if they are in open field. I don't like that there are two completely different mechanisms for being hard to see.

I guess it comes down to what you consider guerrilla, stealthy warfare to entail.
Taken to extreme I guess you can imagine almost anything. So your sneaky Raven Guard devastators and other gun line units could creep up into that cover and are now all blazing away from maximum distance while the opponent struggles to spot them.
But that doesn't fit the chapter fantasy to me.

Game play wise though how will it be any different from setting up an Imperial Fist gun line, except for having a considerably better rule?
This doesn't sit well with me because Imperial Fists are much more of a gun line "come at me bro" sort of chapter. Raven Guard by contrast go out and get you.

White Scars may not be the bike chapter - but they are meant to be the "likes going fast" chapter. If your army consists of a collection of very immobile units it doesn't really play the fluff.

When I think Raven Guard I don't picture a guy lugging a lascannon around. That is what the rule is probably going to encourage.