That detachments provided insane bonuses that were not balanced between armies and a ton of insane free stats, points, and abilities?

Well, I guess it wasn't exactly free since there were some arbitrarily easy unit requirement.

Anyone else feeling 8e is on the fast train to basically what broke 7e...

8th was broken the minute they allowed detachments made entirely of heavy support/elite/superheavies without the requirement of a huge core tax, and additionally making core infantry the only units able to score.

It's going to be like every other edition, some things will be broken and some things won't. Some people will make broken tournament spam lists, some will make fluff lists.

8th made some positive changes to the game, and it also did other things very poorly. It's like any other edition of 40k, the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.

Hauling a small library of books/supplements and their assorted FAQ/errata so you can comb through hundreds of pages of badly written rules to explain to your opponent how many special rules/exceptions you've layered on top of each other essentially reducing the act of playing the game redundant in the first place.

There has never been a version of 40K which didn't end up broken, and I agree 8th'll get there at some point - no question.

Thus far, it doesn't appear even close to 7th though in the amount of "here's my one trick pony which kills your army and you can't touch" kind of silly crap.

So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

Paper vehicles with fiddly vehicle rules making them even worse.
Too many unit types.
Unnecessary special rules.
Jink
Psychic phase
Formations (not the basic idea, but having no points costs and ranging from superstrong to useless).

I say that as someone who actually enjoyed 7th. edition due to our casual group. 8th seems better so far, though, especially the vehicle rules and AP system. Morale seems to be as useless as before, but I'll have to play more games to see that.

The reasons I never wanted to play 7th was that the rules were convoluted and bloated, I had to spend every 10-15 minutes trying to find a rule, and the amount of "free stuff" you could get was absurd.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

I had no problems with 7th and thoroughly enjoyed all my games.


That said, I tended to just play out the rule book with a codex, which seems to circumvent many of the more common complaints on the edition.

Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

Except its not:

For example Malifuax does book based updates that update ALL factions, as did Warmachine - not sure if it does now as don;t really follwo it - as do various other war games.

As did the Indexes to start with.

They have chosen the Codex route as they can sell lots of expensive Codexes but that does not make i the best route. Obviously the downside of the multi army update book is that people get stuff thats not always for thier own faction.

I disagree OP. The main thing people complained about in 7th was broken psychic powers and over powered units/deathstars.

They have mostly fixed that. The psychic phase is much simpler - and deathstars are able to be killed now. Characters can be sniped AND they can't tank for units anymore.

The only thing left is to deal with overpowered units and I think that will just take time - to figure the balance. Your reaction to the marine codex isn't surprising - I thought the exact same thing at first. Just give it time. Don't think of them as free bonuses - they really are't free. The only way to get meaningful amounts of command points is to field troops - and troops in general in this game aren't very good. Think of it as a reward for taking troops.

There were dozens of chief complaints with 7th. For every one 8th fixed, it seems like it found something new to break. How much of a gamebreaker those things are remains to be seen.

I think a big problem in 7th was that there were a lot of situations where you rolled a ton of dice and nothing happened. Invisibility, 2+ re-roll saves, skew armies. In 8th most skew stuff is way too killy, but everything can die, so even in a losing game it is highly likely that you will do significant damage to your opponents army.

I began playing 7th edition a little while after it had been out but my understanding of the problem was codex creep and rules bloat. It didn't start off as bad as it ultimately ended, and yes I also think eight will go the same way.

Detachments/formations that had had huge disparity between factions was my main issue with it. And stupid ridiculous super friends deathstars/allies.

Also not so much 7th but GW at the time not doing anything about the issues. New GW with 8th is rolling FAQs out and making adjustments that might be needed.

Several complaints with 7e include:

-"All or nothing"/Russian Roulette situations. Stomp vs a Grimoired Screamerstar.
-Individual units, or Psychic Powers. The big ones are Scatbikes, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, Invisibility.
-Imbalance between assorted Formations or codexes. (I imagine this one will be replaced with imbalance between assorted Stratagems/Chapter tactics, especially since a lot of Space Marine Stratagems are "ports" of 7e Formation bonuses!). The most notable ones were the Riptide Wing, Aspect Host, Gladius, and Fenrisian Pack (as a prelude to the Barkstar).
-Way too many USRs, many with very similar names that ended up doing different (unintuitive) things. Crusader means you run faster, Zealot means you Hate and are Fearless, you could Hate one enemy but Prefer another, and Furious Charge and Rage did different things! On the flip-side, 8e required a FAQ to clarify that "a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor counts as having the Terminator keyword for determining if it can enter a transport", because you don't have "mixed" units or model-scoped keywords instead of unit-scoped keywords (which also means 5 Deathwatch + 1 Deathwatch Terminator take up twelve spaces in a transport, instead of seven).

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
Detachments/formations that had had huge disparity between factions was my main issue with it. And stupid ridiculous super friends deathstars/allies.

Also not so much 7th but GW at the time not doing anything about the issues. New GW with 8th is rolling FAQs out and making adjustments that might be needed.

Truth be told, almost every Superfriend Deathstar was based on Dark Angels being BB with other Imperials, since their units were more expensive/"elite" as a whole, but they had amazing buff-pieces (Azrael, and the Darkshroud). This really only became noticable due to the Fenrisian Hunting Pack (which let you run a bunch of Fenrisian Wolves in a blob).

Other armies did not have anywhere near the same capacity to build deathstars. This one could easily have been patched by reworking the Hunting Pack to not be a "blob unit".

I don't know what the "big complaint" was but I had issues with Psychic powers, USR'S, all of them, Marker lights A crap codex and the abusive nature of 7th edition army lists.

I like the flexibility it lets me have for building an army but I do not like the way it works when adding allies and am not really a fan of formations mostly due to getting really poor formation options myself while others just get heaps and heaps of better. I was not a fan of being forced to fight challenges or issue them but have no way to actually win them. Just stupid.
The USR's needed to be organized and divided better. The language used to explain how they work/who they work on or with was not good at all. It reads to me like double speak.
My friend plays TA'U he rattles on about synergy and tells me to use more of it but I look in my codex and there's basically none to be had. Instead I have Mob rule. which is for suck.
Psychic Powers were probably my smallest complaint but reading about using the same few and why there the bestist.
While not having access to them.
Or I could just sum it up as 7th edition was an angry edition and made me not way to play because I felt like every game would be a loss, Orks just didn't play like Orks.
The rules weren't bad really but the armies weren't on a level enough playing field.
I was ready to sell everything and then we got the 8th edition rumors and leaks and suddenly I wanted to play again.
So far I've had good games and not be at a disadvantage for playing my chosen faction.

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Well, to start with I meant I don't play AS a gunline. I tend to favor mid-range/melee armies and balanced armies.
Also 3CPs isn't cheap, so it seems fair to me that you're dumping possibly your entire CP stack into maybe two rounds of rerolling misses. I mean that means they're not rerolling saves or FnP on said captain if you bring snipers or whatever.

I also don't feel that blobbing your entire army into a 6" bubble is a particularly effective strategy

7th Edition was just messy and playing it was a mess. The more I play 8th edition the more I consider 7th edition an irredeemable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

Except its not:

For example Malifuax does book based updates that update ALL factions, as did Warmachine - not sure if it does now as don;t really follwo it - as do various other war games.

As did the Indexes to start with.

They have chosen the Codex route as they can sell lots of expensive Codexes but that does not make i the best route. Obviously the downside of the multi army update book is that people get stuff thats not always for thier own faction.

Well that's what the inevitable General's Handbook for Warhammer 40.000 will do. It will provide that "Entire game point change" that is an attempt to rebalance the game. The codexes will be more in depth faction information, very much similar to what Warmahordes does themselves.

Sim-Life wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Well, to start with I meant I don't play AS a gunline. I tend to favor mid-range/melee armies and balanced armies.
Also 3CPs isn't cheap, so it seems fair to me that you're dumping possibly your entire CP stack into maybe two rounds of rerolling misses. I mean that means they're not rerolling saves or FnP on said captain if you bring snipers or whatever.

I also don't feel that blobbing your entire army into a 6" bubble is a particularly effective strategy

"Bring snipers" isn't an all-comer strategy. It also doesn't work if said Chapter Master is buffing Razorbacks or other tanks (it's remarkably easy to block LOS with a metal box).

You get 3 CP for free by default, and 1 CP minimum for most any other detachment that isn't an Auxiliary or a standalone Superheavy.

A flat reroll to hit is superior to rerolling 1s, by merit of offsetting hit penalties. 3+ rerolling 1s is 28 in 36 hits, while 3s rerolling everything is 32 in 36 hits. However, 4s rerolling 1s is 21 in 36, but 4s rerolling everything is 27 in 36 (only 1 in 36 worse than 3s rerolling 1s) The difference continues to go in favor of flat rerolls the more hit penalties are applied.

It's still arguably superior to anything that is just a "singular" reroll, especially if you have spare Battalion CP on-hand and feel cheeky enough to want to play with multiple Predators.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

Except its not:

For example Malifuax does book based updates that update ALL factions, as did Warmachine - not sure if it does now as don;t really follwo it - as do various other war games.

As did the Indexes to start with.

They have chosen the Codex route as they can sell lots of expensive Codexes but that does not make i the best route. Obviously the downside of the multi army update book is that people get stuff thats not always for thier own faction.

Warmachine abandoned updating with new models for everything at once at the start of Mk3. Now they're working on bringing in new models along a certain theme one faction at a time. Basically how it works is they choose a faction, choose a sub-faction within them, make a bunch of new models related to that theme and possibly revise one or two older related units (for example the first set of rule were all related to Cygnar Trencher models), then playtest them, then submit them to community playtesting, then playtest them a bit more before officially releasing them a few months later with models to follow I guess? They haven't been clear on the model side of things. Incidentally, the community hated this approach because they felt it gave Cygnar an unfair advantage.

The difference between WMH and Malifaux however is that when they release new models the old ones don't get revised like they do under the GW codex system. The new models they bring in also don't have their models released all at once and can sometime take anywhere from a few months several years to be released.

 warhead01 wrote:
(r I could just sum it up as 7th edition was an angry edition and made me not way to play because I felt like every game would be a loss, Orks just didn't play like Orks.
The rules weren't bad really but the armies weren't on a level enough playing field.
I was ready to sell everything and then we got the 8th edition rumors and leaks and suddenly I wanted to play again.
So far I've had good games and not be at a disadvantage for playing my chosen faction.

I definitely sympathize with this. I played Orks in 5th, and lamented the loss of Wazdakka, Nob Troops, or other options that 7e stripped out. The Ork FAQ further read like the rule team was giving the finger ("Do Orks inflict S4 hits on each other, even though they're only S3?" "Yes. They're *really* fired up." "Is Grotsnik's Cybork body useless?" "Yes. He is quite mad after all!" and so on so forth).

Even if the 8e Mob Rule is better and the flattened damage charts mask the limited toolbox Orks have to work with, a lot of the same attitudes from 7th are still present in an Ork army. Hit mods penalize Orks way more than other armies (to the point the Orks literally cannot hit certain targets), which nullifies the idea of running them as a Dakka army. Ardboyz and Looted Wagons are gone, because "GW doesn't make models for them", and I seriously doubt they will get more options to let them run as anything else than a melee blob.

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Consider the fact that the RG tactic is compeltely negated at 12" and you'll realize it's actually the weakest one. Are you seriously complaining about a warlord trait that gives -1 AP bubble on 6's to wound? That might cause 3-4 wounds a game if you are lucky. -3 command points to get something that a lot of space marine armies are going to have anyways by playing draigo/gulliman. Then consider the fact a lot of other armies have access to 6" reroll hit bubbles to.

Comparable to 500 free points? I don't think so.

Lets compare that to what harlequins get and they don't even have a codex yet. The ability to advance and charge. Leave combat and advance and shot and charge.

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Well, to start with I meant I don't play AS a gunline. I tend to favor mid-range/melee armies and balanced armies.
Also 3CPs isn't cheap, so it seems fair to me that you're dumping possibly your entire CP stack into maybe two rounds of rerolling misses. I mean that means they're not rerolling saves or FnP on said captain if you bring snipers or whatever.

I also don't feel that blobbing your entire army into a 6" bubble is a particularly effective strategy

"Bring snipers" isn't an all-comer strategy. It also doesn't work if said Chapter Master is buffing Razorbacks or other tanks (it's remarkably easy to block LOS with a metal box).

You get 3 CP for free by default, and 1 CP minimum for most any other detachment that isn't an Auxiliary or a standalone Superheavy.

A flat reroll to hit is superior to rerolling 1s, by merit of offsetting hit penalties. 3+ rerolling 1s is 28 in 36 hits, while 3s rerolling everything is 32 in 36 hits. However, 4s rerolling 1s is 21 in 36, but 4s rerolling everything is 27 in 36 (only 1 in 36 worse than 3s rerolling 1s) The difference continues to go in favor of flat rerolls the more hit penalties are applied.

It's still arguably superior to anything that is just a "singular" reroll, especially if you have spare Battalion CP on-hand and feel cheeky enough to want to play with multiple Predators.

I love that you boiled my post down to "bring snipers", despite the fact that it was just a suggestion as to a situation where your opponent may want to save some CPs instead of burning them all over two turns. I remember why I dislike internet wargaming communities. Everything people dislike as strong is all powerful and unbeatable. You know what's great about 40k? You get given A LOT of tools in armies. You get flyers, deep strikers, charges on turn 1, snipers, alpha strikers, tanks, transports, hordes, flankers and probably more stuff I'm forgetting. If for some reason a single chapter master hiding behind a tank is something you legitimately worry about, maybe take one (or maybe several) of the tools the game gives you to fix that problem.

I mean I suppose you could just throw your hands up and lie down and die when your opponent puts down Raven Guard. Doesn't seem fun to me but whatever. Half the fun of games to me is overcoming my opponent with the tools I have, not just giving up at the first failed armor save.

Scatterlasers.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

"Bring snipers" isn't an all-comer strategy. It also doesn't work if said Chapter Master is buffing Razorbacks or other tanks (it's remarkably easy to block LOS with a metal box).

Bringing snipers isn't an All-Comer strategy, but it's exactly the strategy for killing Characters.
If you wanted to kill tanks, I'd recommend you brought an anti-tank weapon. It might not be all-comers, but it's the ideal weapon.

If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

You get 3 CP for free by default, and 1 CP minimum for most any other detachment that isn't an Auxiliary or a standalone Superheavy.

And is spending those 3 CP you get automatically the best tactic? Especially when a unit of snipers could remove that immediately? What if those 3 CP could have been better spent on another stratagem, or one allowing rerolls on that unit over 6" from the Chapter Master?

A flat reroll to hit is superior to rerolling 1s, by merit of offsetting hit penalties. 3+ rerolling 1s is 28 in 36 hits, while 3s rerolling everything is 32 in 36 hits. However, 4s rerolling 1s is 21 in 36, but 4s rerolling everything is 27 in 36 (only 1 in 36 worse than 3s rerolling 1s) The difference continues to go in favor of flat rerolls the more hit penalties are applied.

It's still arguably superior to anything that is just a "singular" reroll, especially if you have spare Battalion CP on-hand and feel cheeky enough to want to play with multiple Predators.

Only if you can make those buffs work. The benefit of normal CP is that they can buff what you need, wherever you need it. With these, sure, you get more rerolls, but in a smaller area. Is it worth getting to roll again another 16% of rolls (assuming a 3+ to hit)?

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

Two points - harlequins are not the same cost or stats as a Marine, they are only T3 etc etc

Also the important part is once it gets some new rules to play with so - late 2017, early 2018, late 2018 - maybe not at all if they are not considered a "Major Faction" worthy of a Codex.

remember 10 Codexes before Christmas- three already allocated to Loyalist or Chaos Marines, doubtless more will be so - so likely early 2018 at best before they get their new rules. And they will not be alone. That's why I disliked this style of army update and welcomed the Index books

Back OT - it was one of the major major complaints about 7th Ed -

Most people fell into the category of:

"My army has not got an update",
"My army got an update but its rubbish and much weaker than army X"
"My army got an update and its now so stupidly powerful that no one wants to play me."

Very few people were happy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Only if you can make those buffs work. The benefit of normal CP is that they can buff what you need, wherever you need it. With these, sure, you get more rerolls, but in a smaller area. Is it worth getting to roll again another 16% of rolls (assuming a 3+ to hit)?

Are you up versus Stormravens, Raven Guard, Skyweavers, or pretty much anything that adds hit penalties? Extra hits add up.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

Two points - harlequins are not the same cost or stats as a Marine, they are only T3 etc etc

Also the important part is once it gets some new rules to play with so - late 2017, early 2018, late 2018 - maybe not at all if they are not considered a "Major Faction" worthy of a Codex.

remember 10 Codexes before Christmas- three already allocated to Loyalist or Chaos Marines, doubtless more will be so - so likely early 2018 at best before they get their new rules. And they will not be alone.

These are army wide rules - more or less they are given out for free when talking about unit point costs. Funny you mention harlequins are t3 - I am almost always wounding them on 4's. Due to -1 to wound bubbles (which marines don't have access to) - which make harlequins tougher or as tough as marines - not the mention the 4++ saves.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Only if you can make those buffs work. The benefit of normal CP is that they can buff what you need, wherever you need it. With these, sure, you get more rerolls, but in a smaller area. Is it worth getting to roll again another 16% of rolls (assuming a 3+ to hit)?

Are you up versus Stormravens, Raven Guard, Skyweavers, or pretty much anything that adds hit penalties? Extra hits add up.

Chaos: Renegades and Heretics Marauders
Tyranids: You're right, no snipers
Dark Eldar: Eldar Rangers
Harlequins: Eldar Rangers
Genestealer Cults: Astra Militarum snipers and Ratlings
Sisters of Battle: Choose any sniper in the entire Imperium.

Thinking without allies is thinking in 5th edition.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

So none of these armies have deep striking or jump pack units either? Or is this mythical all tanks+Raven Guard Chapter Master list formed some kind of fort out of tanks around the Chapter Master?

Sim-Life wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Well, to start with I meant I don't play AS a gunline. I tend to favor mid-range/melee armies and balanced armies.
Also 3CPs isn't cheap, so it seems fair to me that you're dumping possibly your entire CP stack into maybe two rounds of rerolling misses. I mean that means they're not rerolling saves or FnP on said captain if you bring snipers or whatever.

I also don't feel that blobbing your entire army into a 6" bubble is a particularly effective strategy

"Bring snipers" isn't an all-comer strategy. It also doesn't work if said Chapter Master is buffing Razorbacks or other tanks (it's remarkably easy to block LOS with a metal box).

You get 3 CP for free by default, and 1 CP minimum for most any other detachment that isn't an Auxiliary or a standalone Superheavy.

A flat reroll to hit is superior to rerolling 1s, by merit of offsetting hit penalties. 3+ rerolling 1s is 28 in 36 hits, while 3s rerolling everything is 32 in 36 hits. However, 4s rerolling 1s is 21 in 36, but 4s rerolling everything is 27 in 36 (only 1 in 36 worse than 3s rerolling 1s) The difference continues to go in favor of flat rerolls the more hit penalties are applied.

It's still arguably superior to anything that is just a "singular" reroll, especially if you have spare Battalion CP on-hand and feel cheeky enough to want to play with multiple Predators.

I love that you boiled my post down to "bring snipers", despite the fact that it was just a suggestion as to a situation where your opponent may want to save some CPs instead of burning them all over two turns. I remember why I dislike internet wargaming communities. Everything people dislike as strong is all powerful and unbeatable. You know what's great about 40k? You get given A LOT of tools in armies. You get flyers, deep strikers, charges on turn 1, snipers, alpha strikers, tanks, transports, hordes, flankers and probably more stuff I'm forgetting. If for some reason a single chapter master hiding behind a tank is something you legitimately worry about, maybe take one (or maybe several) of the tools the game gives you to fix that problem.

I mean I suppose you could just throw your hands up and lie down and die when your opponent puts down Raven Guard. Doesn't seem fun to me but whatever. Half the fun of games to me is overcoming my opponent with the tools I have, not just giving up at the first failed armor save.

I'm not trying to get into a micro-discussion about tactics.

When, in 7th, the necron codex came out, they were instantly the strongest faction in the game because they got something - the decurion - that other factions didn't get, and they got it for free, i.e. without paying any in-game resource for it.

The only balancing factor of decurions/formations is "hey, your guys will probably get something equally broken *at some point*." For many factions, including really major ones like Orks and Guard, *at some point* never happened, the edition ended before they ever got to be on par with the necrons who at that point had been around for 2.5 years.

The indexes dropped, and things were relatively on par. A few balancing issues, but it was mostly "unit X uses resource Y a little too efficiently".

But now, immediately, we're right back on the 7th ed bandwagon. The list of "haves" and "Have-nots" is already established, and it's only going to get worse as one faction at a time gets their free gak and becomes stronger than everyone else, with no compensation except "wait your turn" for the factions who have yet to see a codex release.

 Talamare wrote:
That detachments provided insane bonuses that were not balanced between armies and a ton of insane free stats, points, and abilities?

Well, I guess it wasn't exactly free since there were some arbitrarily easy unit requirement.

Anyone else feeling 8e is on the fast train to basically what broke 7e...

There was a multitude of issues with 7E. Power bloat and massive imbalance in general fueled by a multitude of issues from detachment/formation freebies to core rule issues and codex bloat, coupled with an insane number of rules sources that made it impossible to keep everything straight or know all the game content, and a game that kept continually stretching scale issues in both directions, with gobs of pointless random rolls for everything from mission objectives to terrain and whatnot that stripped agency from the players and left too much at the mercy of random D6 effects that had to be looked up in a separate table every 5 minutes.

8E is an improvement, but not as great of one that 40k really needs, and looks likely to potentially retread much of the same ground, we'll see what the future holds I guess.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
(r I could just sum it up as 7th edition was an angry edition and made me not way to play because I felt like every game would be a loss, Orks just didn't play like Orks.
The rules weren't bad really but the armies weren't on a level enough playing field.
I was ready to sell everything and then we got the 8th edition rumors and leaks and suddenly I wanted to play again.
So far I've had good games and not be at a disadvantage for playing my chosen faction.

I definitely sympathize with this. I played Orks in 5th, and lamented the loss of Wazdakka, Nob Troops, or other options that 7e stripped out. The Ork FAQ further read like the rule team was giving the finger ("Do Orks inflict S4 hits on each other, even though they're only S3?" "Yes. They're *really* fired up." "Is Grotsnik's Cybork body useless?" "Yes. He is quite mad after all!" and so on so forth).

Even if the 8e Mob Rule is better and the flattened damage charts mask the limited toolbox Orks have to work with, a lot of the same attitudes from 7th are still present in an Ork army. Hit mods penalize Orks way more than other armies (to the point the Orks literally cannot hit certain targets), which nullifies the idea of running them as a Dakka army. Ardboyz and Looted Wagons are gone, because "GW doesn't make models for them", and I seriously doubt they will get more options to let them run as anything else than a melee blob.

I think a big part of it is the whole now models no rules thing. I haven't like any Ork codes (so far) after the 3rd edition codex. It remains to be seen for the 8th edition codex. But aside from the choppa rule which, is was what it was, There were loads of options in that book. They did cost lots of points but they were there. I could have a War Boss with a 3+and a 5++ I could do the same for Nobs.
If these units are suppose to be big and bad on the table as they are in the fluff they need options to make that possible.
I'm not going to beat a dead horse. 8th edition is looking good for my Orks and been a blast so far. I've played Orks in the Age of Darkness before and those games seemed much more balanced than 40K to me which implies 7th edition could be more balanced or even Ork friendly But given to option, which I have now I'll never Orks in 30K or 40K 7th edition again.
On a side note to that I am now committing to finishing my 30K army. Even if I hardly use it at least it'll all be built and painted for those games and easier to transport.

Sim-Life wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

So none of these armies have deep striking or jump pack units either? Or is this mythical all tanks+Raven Guard Chapter Master list formed some kind of fort out of tanks around the Chapter Master?

Amusingly enough, Sisters don't get meaningful Deep Strike since their "special issue" pistols are range 6. Tyranids get Spores, yes, but at exceedingly inefficient economy of force; Tyranids had always been built as a "small units kill infantry, big units kill tanks" army, and this is slightly less true in 8th; ironically, your best bet is to just poke the tanks with a large Hormagaunt unit, surround them, and turn the game into a ticklefight. Chaos Daemons require Summoning to "approximate" Deep Strike. Chaos gets...Obliterators? Aka they cost more than the units they're trying to DS (and then you have the whole "random strength" gun part to deal with). Oh sure, you could get Warp Talons and hope your opponent has no bubblewrap, which is an arguably generous hope given how 9" bubbles overlap. Or you could just Warptime a unit of Spawn into the fray and get to smashing, and be more efficient at smashing your foe. IIRC, Harlequins also don't get DS, but they get Starweavers so it's more of a wash


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Only if you can make those buffs work. The benefit of normal CP is that they can buff what you need, wherever you need it. With these, sure, you get more rerolls, but in a smaller area. Is it worth getting to roll again another 16% of rolls (assuming a 3+ to hit)?

Are you up versus Stormravens, Raven Guard, Skyweavers, or pretty much anything that adds hit penalties? Extra hits add up.

Chaos: Renegades and Heretics Marauders
Tyranids: You're right, no snipers
Dark Eldar: Eldar Rangers
Harlequins: Eldar Rangers
Genestealer Cults: Astra Militarum snipers and Ratlings
Sisters of Battle: Choose any sniper in the entire Imperium.

Thinking without allies is thinking in 5th edition.

And thinking an army is ok because you can "take allies" to cover gaping holes in their ability to be all-comers is thinking in 6th/7th edition.

the_scotsman wrote:


I'm not trying to get into a micro-discussion about tactics.

When, in 7th, the necron codex came out, they were instantly the strongest faction in the game because they got something - the decurion - that other factions didn't get, and they got it for free, i.e. without paying any in-game resource for it.

The only balancing factor of decurions/formations is "hey, your guys will probably get something equally broken *at some point*." For many factions, including really major ones like Orks and Guard, *at some point* never happened, the edition ended before they ever got to be on par with the necrons who at that point had been around for 2.5 years.

The indexes dropped, and things were relatively on par. A few balancing issues, but it was mostly "unit X uses resource Y a little too efficiently".

But now, immediately, we're right back on the 7th ed bandwagon. The list of "haves" and "Have-nots" is already established, and it's only going to get worse as one faction at a time gets their free gak and becomes stronger than everyone else, with no compensation except "wait your turn" for the factions who have yet to see a codex release.

But this isn't 7th edition and SMs don't get a super broken formation right off the bat. They get more options than other armies, but none of them seem particularly broken or insurmountable. By this logic then the newest codex release will always be the strongest, which we know is wrong.

Sure, there's not one single, big, broken decurion that we can point a finger at and say "THATS what's breaking the game."

Instead, Space Marines get free rules in the form of Chapter Tactics, much more efficient uses of in-game resources in the form of unique stratagems, objectively far better warlord traits, and far more options than anyone else gets with relics and more psychic powers.

Stack all that on top of the fact that Space Marines have been, so far, among the strongest factions in tournament play, and while we may not be at "7th edition eldar codex drop" level, we're certainly doing something similar directly on the heels of the game *finally* getting the reset it so desperately needed.

So yeah, it's a little demoralizing. Nobody's claiming that Space Marines are unbeatable, but I am going to ask my Space Marine opponents if I'm running an index faction at least not to use the free stuff that is chapter tactics, which is exactly what I do when I play Age of Sigmar.

There were so many easy ways to avoid this. A point cost for chapter tactics. Better generic stratagems/more complete psychic power lists. slightly increased point costs across the board for models that will benefit from CTs. But GW didn't, and instead they're touting how much stronger they've made marines than everyone else as a selling point of the codex, with a lovely insulting little foot note for every non-marine "Just think of all the cool stuff YOU'LL get when we eventually get around to you, Dark Eldar/Harlequin/Sisters of Battle/Genestealer Cult player! When Hell freezes over you'll get some sizzlin' hot subfaction tactics to keep you warm!"

The subject of the thread is "What was the major complaint with 7th?" The answer is: Exactly what they're doing right now with codexes in 8th.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

Two points - harlequins are not the same cost or stats as a Marine, they are only T3 etc etc

Also the important part is once it gets some new rules to play with so - late 2017, early 2018, late 2018 - maybe not at all if they are not considered a "Major Faction" worthy of a Codex.

remember 10 Codexes before Christmas- three already allocated to Loyalist or Chaos Marines, doubtless more will be so - so likely early 2018 at best before they get their new rules. And they will not be alone.

These are army wide rules - more or less they are given out for free when talking about unit point costs. Funny you mention harlequins are t3 - I am almost always wounding them on 4's. Due to -1 to wound bubbles (which marines don't have access to) - which make harlequins tougher or as tough as marines - not the mention the 4++ saves.

Unit cost is unit cost - a unit is fine, underpowered or overpowered - some are claiming that Marines are currently underpowered in the Index and that the new stuff is already included in the costs? Do you think the same? Not convinced myself.

It also notable that there were quite a few points drops in the new codex and not a single points increase. There is a lot of new moving parts with the new Dex and how it all fits together.

Lets spin this around - so if by some miracle Harlequins are one of the chosen couple of Non Marine dexes before Christmas - in fact straight after Deathguard.

They get Masque Tactics, the Free Relic(s) and new Stratagems on top of the abilities above.

Are Harlequins over-costed at the moment and need Codex boosting for free, likely coupled with points drops?

For me it was a combination of things;

- Massive unbalance between armies, probably the worst since GK arrived in 5th.
- Bloat, with codeci needing multiple additional books in order to field legal armies.
- Formations and Detatchmentbonuses adding stupidly powerful (and often free) bonuses to armies and units, who mostly didn't even need them to begin with.
- Superheavies being "a thing" in normal games, despite many armies having no real chance against them.
- The Psychic Phase for some armies, felt very unwieldy. Much simpler and faster now in 8th. I remember avoiding my Thousand Sons because I didn't want to go trough with deciding psychic powers and then casting all of them several times over the course of a game.
- Some rules in general, like removing closest casualties first added to the unbalance.

I've already played more games of 8th Ed. than 7th Ed.
Some people complain about the Imperium 1 index being invalidated so soon...I barely opened my 7th Eldar and 7th SM codex. Talk about money well spent.

MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

My least favorite thing about 7th is that they gave everyone the freedom to build awesome themed lists, and then people didn't do that and built the best deathstars instead.

Fortunately you can still build cool themed lists in 8th, though people are already crying about superheavies et al.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

I play CSM. My closest thing to a "tool" for sniping out characters is either ninja-jumping a Heldrake and hoping my opponent didn't screen their character, or waiting for Noise Marines to die while they're conveniently in Line of Sight, or cheating with casino dice for Infernal Gaze. I suppose I could get cute and take Exalted Flamers instead of actual CSM HQs because they're cheaper, more expendable, and have actual AT guns, so I have the option to hang back and shoot while summoning. At that point though, I might as well be playing a Daemon army, rather than actual Chaos Space Marines. Or there's going "take Magnus, hurr" because the restriction on *attempting* to cast a power more than once per turn means you want the caster that gets bonuses to cast in the first place.

This was an actual issue in 7th edition incidentally, and Wrath of Magnus was the perfect example of this. Warp Charge scaled logarithmically for linear point investments, making it better to have one "big caster" and smaller "battery" casters rather than a bunch of medium casters. Rubric Marines and Sorcerers were already overcosted, and a unit of them was 150 points for *one* Warp Charge; meanwhile, WoM added Heralds Anarchic and Blue Horrors, so Daemons could spend 100 points for 4 Warp Charge. Point-for-point, this was a 6-fold increase in WC efficiency. Guess which army you saw Magnus in (protip: You never actually saw him with Thousand Son Marines).

Perhaps the most hilarious component though was the power Siphon Magic. Siphon Magic was a real mess of a power, because as a Blessing, when it was cast, it meant that whenever a power was successfully manifested nearby, that caster gained a token that could be spent as a Warp Charge point. Other than the funny RAW (Warp Charge was innately not tied to an individual Psyker, and there were no rules for "tokens." Could you store them from turn to turn?), this led to the hilarious issue that the power was awesome for hi-level casters like Magnus, but useless for Level 1 casters like Aspiring Sorcerers (since casting Siphon Magic would prevent casting any other powers, making the extra "Warp Charge" from Siphon Magic useless!).

Despite this, I almost prefer the 7e system to 8e, despite the idiocy that came from GW writing rules that make Bethesda look competent at launch. "May only attempt to cast a power once per turn" is not innately scalable, "spam smite" makes Psyker powers dull and a one-dimensional gun analogue, and it doesn't actually address internal balance between said powers ("Hmm, do I take Warptime or Infernal Gaze? Warptime is clearly superior, hurr.") Imagine if Guard could only issue each Order once per turn, and you had to take a Leadership check for it. Or imagine Sisters only got *one* Act of Faith per turn, period.

Tyranids have lictors and deathleaper to act as character assassins instead of "sniper" units and a carnifex, ht, or swarmlord or trygon is far more efficient at destroying a vehicle then a swarm of hormagaunts. Hell, the exocrine does a pretty great job too.

7th was one giant train wreck. Yes formations were bad. But more importantly 80+usrs, over a dozen unit types, poor assault rules, 4 or 5 resolution methods, vehicles function entirely different from everything else in the game compounding all the other issues and creating major power gaps in units.

8th has 2 problems. The detachments are too open. You can take anything with no real restriction or drawback. Maybe it wont seem so bad when more strategems are available and command points become a more valuable comodity.

And the igougo turn structure is archaic and dull. Game play could be spead up and become significantly more tactical if we had better turn structure. Why gw insists on sticking with a mechanic structure thats like 30-40 years old is beyond me.

There was nothing good about 7th.

From formations to the old doubling down characters to death.

oh and invisibility and rerollable 2+ saves

Basically a no fun zone.

Agreed that "Take Allies" is not an appropriate solution. If I play CSM, I want to play CSM, not CSM and Daemons, or mostly Daemons.

If I play Harlequins, I don't want to take Eldar. (Death Jest is a sniper, by the way-just not a good one.)

Most formations were pretty cool, actually. They gave situational bonuses that encouraged someone to field odd units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Agreed that "Take Allies" is not an appropriate solution. If I play CSM, I want to play CSM, not CSM and Daemons, or mostly Daemons.

If I play Harlequins, I don't want to take Eldar. (Death Jest is a sniper, by the way-just not a good one.)

7th ed BA fix: take your battle bros who do everything better!

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

So none of these armies have deep striking or jump pack units either? Or is this mythical all tanks+Raven Guard Chapter Master list formed some kind of fort out of tanks around the Chapter Master?

Amusingly enough, Sisters don't get meaningful Deep Strike since their "special issue" pistols are range 6. Tyranids get Spores, yes, but at exceedingly inefficient economy of force; Tyranids had always been built as a "small units kill infantry, big units kill tanks" army, and this is slightly less true in 8th; ironically, your best bet is to just poke the tanks with a large Hormagaunt unit, surround them, and turn the game into a ticklefight. Chaos Daemons require Summoning to "approximate" Deep Strike. Chaos gets...Obliterators? Aka they cost more than the units they're trying to DS (and then you have the whole "random strength" gun part to deal with). Oh sure, you could get Warp Talons and hope your opponent has no bubblewrap, which is an arguably generous hope given how 9" bubbles overlap. Or you could just Warptime a unit of Spawn into the fray and get to smashing, and be more efficient at smashing your foe. IIRC, Harlequins also don't get DS, but they get Starweavers so it's more of a wash

This is the last time I'll reply because it's going off topic but AGAIN you've focused down on a singular phrase rather than adressing my point as whole.

No Sister's don't have a deep strike unit, they do have a unit with 4 meltaguns (or 4 flamers, you're choice) that can be applied to tanks at close range on turn 1. Their transport ALSO has meltaguns or a 2d6 flamer on it incidentally.
Tyranids have more than drop pods, they have trygons, trygon tunnels, mawlocs, lictors, Deathleaper, The Red Terror and raveners. I think gargoyles can deep strike as well. Last time I played nids I had a whole detachment of underground based units for deep striking because I liked the idea.
Orks have Da Jump or whatever it's called.
I dunno about Chaos though because no one I know plays them and I've never been interested in them so I'll refrain from comment. I've been meaning to look into daemons though since my Fantasy Daemon army has been languishing in the Warp because I don't want to play AoS

Martel732 wrote:
Most formations were pretty cool, actually. They gave situational bonuses that encouraged someone to field odd units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Agreed that "Take Allies" is not an appropriate solution. If I play CSM, I want to play CSM, not CSM and Daemons, or mostly Daemons.

If I play Harlequins, I don't want to take Eldar. (Death Jest is a sniper, by the way-just not a good one.)

7th ed BA fix: take your battle bros who do everything better!

"


HAHA, Yup. Orkz don't have any way to win games atm. Solution? Have you tried taking some Space Marines or Elves with your Orkz? No because if I wanted to play elves or Mehreens I would have BOUGHT THAT ARMY!

As to my biggest complaint about 7th? Starting every game knowing I was at an immediate disadvantage, and if I made any mistakes on movement, positioning or shooting I was going to be losing. Ohh and having about 2/3rds to 3/4ths of my Codex be basically unusable.

Granted this seems to still be the case in 8th so nothing has changed.

Orks are much better off in 8th, don't kid yourself. You can be better off and still be towards the bottom. The bottom has just risen a lot.

Martel732 wrote:
Orks are much better off in 8th, don't kid yourself. You can be better off and still be towards the bottom. The bottom has just risen a lot.

I dispute that entirely. We have gotten noticeably worse in most areas and marginally better in some.

Most notably, Orkz now lack anti-tank units/weapons almost across the board. Tank bustas are actually worse this edition because of the huge increase in price to Trukkz and the fact that with the new cover rules they HAVE TO BE in a vehicle.

So beyond tank bustas our best way to get rid of a vehicle? Meganobz with Sawz. And that is a hefty price tag for a unit and is easily eliminated by enemy units.

Basically the only really good thing in our codex is Boyz and Weirdboyz who both got "buffed" and i used the quotation marks because Boyz gained +1 strength (no more furious charge) but lost an attack and 1 inch of movement. They nerfed Ere We Go and made Trukk Boyz/Wagon Boyz almost unusable. So we are left with foot sloggin (Slow) mobz that are easily dealt with by a number of enemy units and people are starting to figure out what is the best way to counter those hordes. Because keep in mind, it wasn't just orkz who got better for hordes it was IG, Nidz and Chaos as well. And once we start seeing players using more anti-horde weapons, Orkz will be right back at the bottom of the pile....technically they are already there but hey, whatever.

You can dispute it, but I think you are very, very wrong. Trukks are more expensive, but actually can perform their jobs now. The Ork mobs are nothing short of terrifying, and a balanced list will always struggle to handle these hordes, I think. Ork mobs punch out T7 vehicles and less just fine. T8+ are an issue, but most of them are very pricey. And they're not being taken in the meta from what I've seen.

Also, Gorka/Morka nauts are legit now. One of them killed my entire DC squad in one round. But yeah, Orks have nothing, sure.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

Two points - harlequins are not the same cost or stats as a Marine, they are only T3 etc etc

Also the important part is once it gets some new rules to play with so - late 2017, early 2018, late 2018 - maybe not at all if they are not considered a "Major Faction" worthy of a Codex.

remember 10 Codexes before Christmas- three already allocated to Loyalist or Chaos Marines, doubtless more will be so - so likely early 2018 at best before they get their new rules. And they will not be alone.

These are army wide rules - more or less they are given out for free when talking about unit point costs. Funny you mention harlequins are t3 - I am almost always wounding them on 4's. Due to -1 to wound bubbles (which marines don't have access to) - which make harlequins tougher or as tough as marines - not the mention the 4++ saves.

Unit cost is unit cost - a unit is fine, underpowered or overpowered - some are claiming that Marines are currently underpowered in the Index and that the new stuff is already included in the costs? Do you think the same? Not convinced myself.

It also notable that there were quite a few points drops in the new codex and not a single points increase. There is a lot of new moving parts with the new Dex and how it all fits together.

Lets spin this around - so if by some miracle Harlequins are one of the chosen couple of Non Marine dexes before Christmas - in fact straight after Deathguard.

They get Masque Tactics, the Free Relic(s) and new Stratagems on top of the abilities above.

Are Harlequins over-costed at the moment and need Codex boosting for free, likely coupled with points drops?

I see your point. You fear the codex creep. Jezz I hope that doesn't happen. Also - Harlequin power level is right up there with codex marines IMO. So - its really scary to think about them getting stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
There was nothing good about 7th.

From formations to the old doubling down characters to death.

oh and invisibility and rerollable 2+ saves

Basically a no fun zone.

Yeah I totally agree - Balls to the walls competitive 7th - I'm pretty sure that is what prison feels like.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

I play CSM. My closest thing to a "tool" for sniping out characters is either ninja-jumping a Heldrake and hoping my opponent didn't screen their character, or waiting for Noise Marines to die while they're conveniently in Line of Sight, or cheating with casino dice for Infernal Gaze. I suppose I could get cute and take Exalted Flamers instead of actual CSM HQs because they're cheaper, more expendable, and have actual AT guns, so I have the option to hang back and shoot while summoning. At that point though, I might as well be playing a Daemon army, rather than actual Chaos Space Marines. Or there's going "take Magnus, hurr" because the restriction on *attempting* to cast a power more than once per turn means you want the caster that gets bonuses to cast in the first place.

This was an actual issue in 7th edition incidentally, and Wrath of Magnus was the perfect example of this. Warp Charge scaled logarithmically for linear point investments, making it better to have one "big caster" and smaller "battery" casters rather than a bunch of medium casters. Rubric Marines and Sorcerers were already overcosted, and a unit of them was 150 points for *one* Warp Charge; meanwhile, WoM added Heralds Anarchic and Blue Horrors, so Daemons could spend 100 points for 4 Warp Charge. Point-for-point, this was a 6-fold increase in WC efficiency. Guess which army you saw Magnus in (protip: You never actually saw him with Thousand Son Marines).

Perhaps the most hilarious component though was the power Siphon Magic. Siphon Magic was a real mess of a power, because as a Blessing, when it was cast, it meant that whenever a power was successfully manifested nearby, that caster gained a token that could be spent as a Warp Charge point. Other than the funny RAW (Warp Charge was innately not tied to an individual Psyker, and there were no rules for "tokens." Could you store them from turn to turn?), this led to the hilarious issue that the power was awesome for hi-level casters like Magnus, but useless for Level 1 casters like Aspiring Sorcerers (since casting Siphon Magic would prevent casting any other powers, making the extra "Warp Charge" from Siphon Magic useless!).

Despite this, I almost prefer the 7e system to 8e, despite the idiocy that came from GW writing rules that make Bethesda look competent at launch. "May only attempt to cast a power once per turn" is not innately scalable, "spam smite" makes Psyker powers dull and a one-dimensional gun analogue, and it doesn't actually address internal balance between said powers ("Hmm, do I take Warptime or Infernal Gaze? Warptime is clearly superior, hurr.") Imagine if Guard could only issue each Order once per turn, and you had to take a Leadership check for it. Or imagine Sisters only got *one* Act of Faith per turn, period.

The problem lies in the Psychic Focus rule not being scalable at all. Many Tyranids units get penalized since they pay an extra for Psychic capabilities and these are often wasted on Smite-spam

Ive said it before il promote it forever. Dont play matched. Play open and use most of the matched rules.

Psychic focus is dumb. Just house rule that powers dont stack with themselves so -1 ld and to hit the horror cannot cripple a unit and the games scales and functions great.

The problem with 7E was that it was 6E, but moreso.

Overladen with charts and special rules, rules and special rules that referenced other rules. It's basically 40k for librarians & lawyers. All of the fun got sucked out because it was a bloated mechanical disaster, with so much randomness for the sake of randomness.

Martel732 wrote:
You can dispute it, but I think you are very, very wrong. Trukks are more expensive, but actually can perform their jobs now. The Ork mobs are nothing short of terrifying, and a balanced list will always struggle to handle these hordes, I think. Ork mobs punch out T7 vehicles and less just fine. T8+ are an issue, but most of them are very pricey. And they're not being taken in the meta from what I've seen.

Also, Gorka/Morka nauts are legit now. One of them killed my entire DC squad in one round. But yeah, Orks have nothing, sure.

30 Ork boyz will put out 120 attacks (if they all got in range) They will hit 90 times, against T7 they will wound 30 times. Against a 3+ save that is 10 wounds. YAY! of course that is also saying like I said ALL of them got in range, all of them rolled average and the opponent only had a 3+ save and no extra stuff like the -1 to hit or the -1 to wound or the 2+ armor save.

Against T8 with a 2+ save though, those 90 hits turn into 15 wounds which equals 2.5 wounds going through after the 2+ save. all with the same stipulations mentioned above. Also if orkz don't have a warboss nearby they don't get to advance and assault, they also suffer severe problems from leadership and lack of ability to kill tough models with good saves.

Gorkanaut is considered to be OK by most of us and that is strictly because of its number of close combat attacks. Its actually hitting significantly harder then a stompa point for point in close combat. Its ranged weaponry though is a joke and all but ignored. So you are saying you are afraid of a 364pt model that moves 8 inches a turn and gets 4 hits with a S6 weapon and 2 hits with a S5 weapon at range a turn? (Rokkit will miss more often then not and the Skorcha is short ranged) It actually costs more then a land raider, is slower then a land raider, is less durable then a land raider (it has 2 more wounds but the LR has a 2+ save) and can only really do damage when it gets into CC. Where as the Land Raider can put out a hurting UNTIL it gets into CC.

You assaulted or allowed a slow walker to assault your assault unit that is designed solely to kill things in CC and were surprised you lost to a model that costs significantly more then your death company.

And the Morkanut? its worse then the GOrkanaut by far.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

I play CSM. My closest thing to a "tool" for sniping out characters is either ninja-jumping a Heldrake and hoping my opponent didn't screen their character, or waiting for Noise Marines to die while they're conveniently in Line of Sight, or cheating with casino dice for Infernal Gaze. I suppose I could get cute and take Exalted Flamers instead of actual CSM HQs because they're cheaper, more expendable, and have actual AT guns, so I have the option to hang back and shoot while summoning. At that point though, I might as well be playing a Daemon army, rather than actual Chaos Space Marines. Or there's going "take Magnus, hurr" because the restriction on *attempting* to cast a power more than once per turn means you want the caster that gets bonuses to cast in the first place.

This was an actual issue in 7th edition incidentally, and Wrath of Magnus was the perfect example of this. Warp Charge scaled logarithmically for linear point investments, making it better to have one "big caster" and smaller "battery" casters rather than a bunch of medium casters. Rubric Marines and Sorcerers were already overcosted, and a unit of them was 150 points for *one* Warp Charge; meanwhile, WoM added Heralds Anarchic and Blue Horrors, so Daemons could spend 100 points for 4 Warp Charge. Point-for-point, this was a 6-fold increase in WC efficiency. Guess which army you saw Magnus in (protip: You never actually saw him with Thousand Son Marines).

Perhaps the most hilarious component though was the power Siphon Magic. Siphon Magic was a real mess of a power, because as a Blessing, when it was cast, it meant that whenever a power was successfully manifested nearby, that caster gained a token that could be spent as a Warp Charge point. Other than the funny RAW (Warp Charge was innately not tied to an individual Psyker, and there were no rules for "tokens." Could you store them from turn to turn?), this led to the hilarious issue that the power was awesome for hi-level casters like Magnus, but useless for Level 1 casters like Aspiring Sorcerers (since casting Siphon Magic would prevent casting any other powers, making the extra "Warp Charge" from Siphon Magic useless!).

Despite this, I almost prefer the 7e system to 8e, despite the idiocy that came from GW writing rules that make Bethesda look competent at launch. "May only attempt to cast a power once per turn" is not innately scalable, "spam smite" makes Psyker powers dull and a one-dimensional gun analogue, and it doesn't actually address internal balance between said powers ("Hmm, do I take Warptime or Infernal Gaze? Warptime is clearly superior, hurr.") Imagine if Guard could only issue each Order once per turn, and you had to take a Leadership check for it. Or imagine Sisters only got *one* Act of Faith per turn, period.

The problem lies in the Psychic Focus rule not being scalable at all. Many Tyranids units get penalized since they pay an extra for Psychic capabilities and these are often wasted on Smite-spam

Psychic focus is a really bad rule. How about - just don't make broken powers live invisibility and it doesn't matter if they cast it twice. As long as the psyker is properly costed.

Ohh, and Trukkz don't perform their job anymore. They were designed as a CHEAP transport for Ork Boyz squads. GW even sold a unit called "Trukk Boyz" but now if you take "Trukk Boyz" you will lose any benefits you normally get for leadership because LD 7 (with nob) won't save you.

SemperMortis wrote:
Ohh, and Trukkz don't perform their job anymore. They were designed as a CHEAP transport for Ork Boyz squads. GW even sold a unit called "Trukk Boyz" but now if you take "Trukk Boyz" you will lose any benefits you normally get for leadership because LD 7 (with nob) won't save you.

It will if you're near a mob of 30. :3

Orks as an army have been extremely Flanderized throughout the editions into being a "horde of Boyz" while losing a lot of tools/comedic "utility" that could potentially make such a horde work in the first place! Additionally, although Orks technically aren't "worse" due to hit mods being -1 to hit (instead of "snap shoot on 6s", there are *more* hit penalties floating around 8th in general. Are you facing Stormravens at night-time? Guess what, most of your army literally cannot do anything! Enjoy rolling 7s to hit, or trying to assault.

When you compare this to the assorted tricks Orks used to have throughout the editions, from Turbo-Boosta move-shenanigans, to Kult of Speed Orks being able to retreat towards a transport, to Weirdboyz having a power that let them push Remain-In-Play templates around ("Why yes, I'll shove that Vortex back into your lines"), Burnas being able to roll 2d6 to penetrate vehicles, Ammo Tunts being able to grant a reroll to-hit to any model in B2B (regaedless if it was the same unit), and there are a lot of potential options for making Orks characterful while giving them more depth of play besides "can I move forward and krump?"

One of the more notable issues with Orks in 7e, other than the disparity of options, a gimpy Mob Rule, junk troops, etc, was that while Orks are fun to convert up, they're actually kind of boring in-game. In a game where armies could get Orders, Doctrines, Canticles, whacky Psychic Powers, Riptide Reactors, Elemental Invocations, and all sorts of kooky "techpieces", the only oddity Orks got outside of "move and shoot" was "Do I pop the Waaagh this turn?" The only problem was this wasn't even a choice, since the answer to this question either became "Always" (you were running a Green Tide), or "Never" (you were running Zhadsnark).

SemperMortis wrote:
Ohh, and Trukkz don't perform their job anymore. They were designed as a CHEAP transport for Ork Boyz squads. GW even sold a unit called "Trukk Boyz" but now if you take "Trukk Boyz" you will lose any benefits you normally get for leadership because LD 7 (with nob) won't save you.

Compared to other transports, they are cheap. Something with 10 wounds or whatever shouldn't cost 30 pts.

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can dispute it, but I think you are very, very wrong. Trukks are more expensive, but actually can perform their jobs now. The Ork mobs are nothing short of terrifying, and a balanced list will always struggle to handle these hordes, I think. Ork mobs punch out T7 vehicles and less just fine. T8+ are an issue, but most of them are very pricey. And they're not being taken in the meta from what I've seen.

Also, Gorka/Morka nauts are legit now. One of them killed my entire DC squad in one round. But yeah, Orks have nothing, sure.

30 Ork boyz will put out 120 attacks (if they all got in range) They will hit 90 times, against T7 they will wound 30 times. Against a 3+ save that is 10 wounds. YAY! of course that is also saying like I said ALL of them got in range, all of them rolled average and the opponent only had a 3+ save and no extra stuff like the -1 to hit or the -1 to wound or the 2+ armor save.

Against T8 with a 2+ save though, those 90 hits turn into 15 wounds which equals 2.5 wounds going through after the 2+ save. all with the same stipulations mentioned above. Also if orkz don't have a warboss nearby they don't get to advance and assault, they also suffer severe problems from leadership and lack of ability to kill tough models with good saves.

Gorkanaut is considered to be OK by most of us and that is strictly because of its number of close combat attacks. Its actually hitting significantly harder then a stompa point for point in close combat. Its ranged weaponry though is a joke and all but ignored. So you are saying you are afraid of a 364pt model that moves 8 inches a turn and gets 4 hits with a S6 weapon and 2 hits with a S5 weapon at range a turn? (Rokkit will miss more often then not and the Skorcha is short ranged) It actually costs more then a land raider, is slower then a land raider, is less durable then a land raider (it has 2 more wounds but the LR has a 2+ save) and can only really do damage when it gets into CC. Where as the Land Raider can put out a hurting UNTIL it gets into CC.

You assaulted or allowed a slow walker to assault your assault unit that is designed solely to kill things in CC and were surprised you lost to a model that costs significantly more then your death company.

And the Morkanut? its worse then the GOrkanaut by far.

Thats 30 boys in a vacume. With other bonuses they are hitting drastically more than 90 times. Its possible to get about 6-7 attacks per boy. 8th is about synergy. Looking at the unit on its own is a fallacy.

SemperMortis wrote:
Ohh, and Trukkz don't perform their job anymore. They were designed as a CHEAP transport for Ork Boyz squads. GW even sold a unit called "Trukk Boyz" but now if you take "Trukk Boyz" you will lose any benefits you normally get for leadership because LD 7 (with nob) won't save you.

It's funny cause you said were..past tense.
They just different now. Mine survive more than one enemy shooting phase now so I'll take it.
You said there was no anti tank. I'm going to guess you haven tried Smasha guns yet. But truthfully I have no idea what you expect from Ork antitank. Did you know Grots now have a 6+ save. Which is really good now that bolters cant auto kill them, or much of anything else.
If you can't figure out how to work with Orks new Mob rule or are simply too stubborn to make it work then that's on you. It's brilliant. If you figure it out you'll do very well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

I play CSM. My closest thing to a "tool" for sniping out characters is either ninja-jumping a Heldrake and hoping my opponent didn't screen their character, or waiting for Noise Marines to die while they're conveniently in Line of Sight, or cheating with casino dice for Infernal Gaze. I suppose I could get cute and take Exalted Flamers instead of actual CSM HQs because they're cheaper, more expendable, and have actual AT guns, so I have the option to hang back and shoot while summoning. At that point though, I might as well be playing a Daemon army, rather than actual Chaos Space Marines. Or there's going "take Magnus, hurr" because the restriction on *attempting* to cast a power more than once per turn means you want the caster that gets bonuses to cast in the first place.

This was an actual issue in 7th edition incidentally, and Wrath of Magnus was the perfect example of this. Warp Charge scaled logarithmically for linear point investments, making it better to have one "big caster" and smaller "battery" casters rather than a bunch of medium casters. Rubric Marines and Sorcerers were already overcosted, and a unit of them was 150 points for *one* Warp Charge; meanwhile, WoM added Heralds Anarchic and Blue Horrors, so Daemons could spend 100 points for 4 Warp Charge. Point-for-point, this was a 6-fold increase in WC efficiency. Guess which army you saw Magnus in (protip: You never actually saw him with Thousand Son Marines).

Perhaps the most hilarious component though was the power Siphon Magic. Siphon Magic was a real mess of a power, because as a Blessing, when it was cast, it meant that whenever a power was successfully manifested nearby, that caster gained a token that could be spent as a Warp Charge point. Other than the funny RAW (Warp Charge was innately not tied to an individual Psyker, and there were no rules for "tokens." Could you store them from turn to turn?), this led to the hilarious issue that the power was awesome for hi-level casters like Magnus, but useless for Level 1 casters like Aspiring Sorcerers (since casting Siphon Magic would prevent casting any other powers, making the extra "Warp Charge" from Siphon Magic useless!).

Despite this, I almost prefer the 7e system to 8e, despite the idiocy that came from GW writing rules that make Bethesda look competent at launch. "May only attempt to cast a power once per turn" is not innately scalable, "spam smite" makes Psyker powers dull and a one-dimensional gun analogue, and it doesn't actually address internal balance between said powers ("Hmm, do I take Warptime or Infernal Gaze? Warptime is clearly superior, hurr.") Imagine if Guard could only issue each Order once per turn, and you had to take a Leadership check for it. Or imagine Sisters only got *one* Act of Faith per turn, period.

The problem lies in the Psychic Focus rule not being scalable at all. Many Tyranids units get penalized since they pay an extra for Psychic capabilities and these are often wasted on Smite-spam

Psychic focus is a really bad rule. How about - just don't make broken powers live invisibility and it doesn't matter if they cast it twice. As long as the psyker is properly costed.

But internal balance is so hard, man! Next you're going to suggest putting point values on all the powers like this is early 4th edition or something like that!

On another note, the biggest issue I found with the 7e system for psy powers (besides the "Battery" one) is that not only was it not scalable (though this was less of an issue than in 8e), but that Psychic Powers were all or nothing.

What I mean by this is, say you take a power like Summoning (a hated power, but this one demonstrates the example perfectly). Summoning gives you extra troops in-game, but you need at least 3 successes. This means if you throw 5 Warp Charge down, you have a 50-50 chance of the summon going off. If it fails, you just wasted 5 Warp Charge on nothing. If you get 5 successes though, your opponent needs to roll 5 sixes in order to deny it. Rolling 4 sixes is the same as rolling 0, and thus it's fairly pointless to actually attempt Denying (better save dice to negate Witchfires/Maledictions if you suspect your opponent will sling a Shriek).

One of the earlier 7e homebrews I did was to revise the Psychic system, so each Psyker got an extra WC, and could "push" for a free die, but they couldn't pool their WC to let one caster be a focal lens. Rather than each power having a Threshold ("must roll at least 3 successes", or "must roll a 5+, 7+, etc" on 2d6), this system instead made every Psychic power only require 1 success to go off, but made them really weak by comparison. However, additional successes (to a max of 4) would increase the effect of the power. Scouring Flame would be S5 AP 4 on 1 success, S8 AP 1 on 4 successes.

On the flipside, rather than being an all or nothing threshold, Deny the Witch would simply subtract successes from manifesting the power. Even if you couldn't completely stop a power from going off, you could blunt the worst of its effects!

I feel like reducing the potential for extreme variance in game results is one of the keys to making for more balanced play overall. You want to win because you outplayed your opponent, not because your opponent got screwed over by mechanical idiosyncracies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can dispute it, but I think you are very, very wrong. Trukks are more expensive, but actually can perform their jobs now. The Ork mobs are nothing short of terrifying, and a balanced list will always struggle to handle these hordes, I think. Ork mobs punch out T7 vehicles and less just fine. T8+ are an issue, but most of them are very pricey. And they're not being taken in the meta from what I've seen.

Also, Gorka/Morka nauts are legit now. One of them killed my entire DC squad in one round. But yeah, Orks have nothing, sure.

30 Ork boyz will put out 120 attacks (if they all got in range) They will hit 90 times, against T7 they will wound 30 times. Against a 3+ save that is 10 wounds. YAY! of course that is also saying like I said ALL of them got in range, all of them rolled average and the opponent only had a 3+ save and no extra stuff like the -1 to hit or the -1 to wound or the 2+ armor save.

Against T8 with a 2+ save though, those 90 hits turn into 15 wounds which equals 2.5 wounds going through after the 2+ save. all with the same stipulations mentioned above. Also if orkz don't have a warboss nearby they don't get to advance and assault, they also suffer severe problems from leadership and lack of ability to kill tough models with good saves.

Gorkanaut is considered to be OK by most of us and that is strictly because of its number of close combat attacks. Its actually hitting significantly harder then a stompa point for point in close combat. Its ranged weaponry though is a joke and all but ignored. So you are saying you are afraid of a 364pt model that moves 8 inches a turn and gets 4 hits with a S6 weapon and 2 hits with a S5 weapon at range a turn? (Rokkit will miss more often then not and the Skorcha is short ranged) It actually costs more then a land raider, is slower then a land raider, is less durable then a land raider (it has 2 more wounds but the LR has a 2+ save) and can only really do damage when it gets into CC. Where as the Land Raider can put out a hurting UNTIL it gets into CC.

You assaulted or allowed a slow walker to assault your assault unit that is designed solely to kill things in CC and were surprised you lost to a model that costs significantly more then your death company.

And the Morkanut? its worse then the GOrkanaut by far.

Thats 30 boys in a vacume. With other bonuses they are hitting drastically more than 90 times. Its possible to get about 6-7 attacks per boy. 8th is about synergy. Looking at the unit on its own is a fallacy.

Synergy is a loaded term, and one that always bothered me ever since 4th edition Eldar came out because that's when people really started spewing it out.

"Banshees have Synergy with Eldar Farseers, because they can cast Doom on an enemy unit of foot Marines and overcome the Strength issues that Banshees have!"

Synergy as defined by such players is not "two units that work in a vacuum, but can mutually support each other", so much as "one unit is dependent on the other to not completely suck". Khaine save you if you came up against a mechanized army (read: Most 5e armies), leaving your Banshees flailing away uselessly, because each unit of Banshees ate up an Elite slot that could have been used for Fire Dragons!

Real Synergy would have been something like Wave Serpents with Star Engines, and War Walkers or so. Or Karamazov and Interceptors. Or Kroot and a Crisis Commander, etc. These are all historical "standalone" examples of 2 units/characters that could very easily work standalone, did not depend on the other to not suck, and could become more than the sum of their parts.

There's more to synergy than "buff-stacking", and in fact hyper-focused buff-stacking of specific unit combos can result in certain combos that actually don't work as well in "practice" as the designers may have intended! Privateer Press learned this one in Mk2 as the community now has "Skornergy" as a word for when certain buff-combos ironically lead to a fairly non-workable army.

 Talamare wrote:
That detachments provided insane bonuses that were not balanced between armies and a ton of insane free stats, points, and abilities?

Well, I guess it wasn't exactly free since there were some arbitrarily easy unit requirement.

Anyone else feeling 8e is on the fast train to basically what broke 7e...

The hell you on bro? First of all, ha no. Second of all the formation thing was what people who sucked at the game were worried about. People who are good hated deathstars.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

There's more to synergy than "buff-stacking", and in fact hyper-focused buff-stacking of specific unit combos can result in certain combos that actually don't work as well in "practice" as the designers may have intended! Privateer Press learned this one in Mk2 as the community now has "Skornergy" as a word for when certain buff-combos ironically lead to a fairly non-workable army.

I could agree or disagree on how 8th is good or bad, if is an improvement or not, but this is what I used to say for AoS.
Modern design is compromised by this concept that synergy is something defined by small numbers pr-defined by the designer (and you are oh-so-smart to figure out) and not an effect of how the units move and play on the battlefield.

Thank you, MagicJuggler.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
That detachments provided insane bonuses that were not balanced between armies and a ton of insane free stats, points, and abilities?

Well, I guess it wasn't exactly free since there were some arbitrarily easy unit requirement.

Anyone else feeling 8e is on the fast train to basically what broke 7e...

The hell you on bro? First of all, ha no. Second of all the formation thing was what people who sucked at the game were worried about. People who are good hated deathstars.

You don't ned to "suck" to despise the gladius. Free point on a point game = wrong.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks as an army have been extremely Flanderized throughout the editions into being a "horde of Boyz" while losing a lot of tools/comedic "utility" that could potentially make such a horde work in the first place!

As a non-Orkz player, I see that GW has very appropriately honed the Ork army focus to serve as "comedic relief" against the Grimmest Darkest Grimdark that ever Grimdarked.

To properly match the Fluff, Orks should NEVER be anywhere close to "competitive" as an army - otherwise, they'd already have taken over the galaxy! That's why their army is correctly designed to randomly self-destruct or flop at critical junctures.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks as an army have been extremely Flanderized throughout the editions into being a "horde of Boyz" while losing a lot of tools/comedic "utility" that could potentially make such a horde work in the first place!

As a non-Orkz player, I see that GW has very appropriately honed the Ork army focus to serve as "comedic relief" against the Grimmest Darkest Grimdark that ever Grimdarked.

To properly match the Fluff, Orks should NEVER be anywhere close to "competitive" as an army - otherwise, they'd already have taken over the galaxy! That's why their army is correctly designed to randomly self-destruct or flop at critical junctures.

No. I don't agree at all. Comedic relief, sure if you find starvation, beatings, genocide and slavery funny then they're hilarious.

 warhead01 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks as an army have been extremely Flanderized throughout the editions into being a "horde of Boyz" while losing a lot of tools/comedic "utility" that could potentially make such a horde work in the first place!

As a non-Orkz player, I see that GW has very appropriately honed the Ork army focus to serve as "comedic relief" against the Grimmest Darkest Grimdark that ever Grimdarked.

To properly match the Fluff, Orks should NEVER be anywhere close to "competitive" as an army - otherwise, they'd already have taken over the galaxy! That's why their army is correctly designed to randomly self-destruct or flop at critical junctures.

No. I don't agree at all. Comedic relief, sure if you find starvation, beatings, genocide and slavery funny then they're hilarious.

I'm more taken aback by the idea that entire factions should be non-competitive. That same mindset is what led to Orcs&Goblins being borderline unplayable in 7th WHFB while Daemons ("the ultimate bad guy") were able to steamroll most other armies. The game should be more about generalship and less about "matchup", and both players should have a variety of options beyond the scope of list-building.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks as an army have been extremely Flanderized throughout the editions into being a "horde of Boyz" while losing a lot of tools/comedic "utility" that could potentially make such a horde work in the first place!

As a non-Orkz player, I see that GW has very appropriately honed the Ork army focus to serve as "comedic relief" against the Grimmest Darkest Grimdark that ever Grimdarked.

To properly match the Fluff, Orks should NEVER be anywhere close to "competitive" as an army - otherwise, they'd already have taken over the galaxy! That's why their army is correctly designed to randomly self-destruct or flop at critical junctures.

No. I don't agree at all. Comedic relief, sure if you find starvation, beatings, genocide and slavery funny then they're hilarious.

I'm more taken aback by the idea that entire factions should be non-competitive. That same mindset is what led to Orcs&Goblins being borderline unplayable in 7th WHFB while Daemons ("the ultimate bad guy") were able to steamroll most other armies. The game should be more about generalship and less about "matchup", and both players should have a variety of options beyond the scope of list-building.

Exactly that. I for one have been playing orks for 20 years now. I didn't look at them and say Hey these look like Comedic Relief I'll play those. I get that they way they've been treated or kinda represented is a bit in like with comedy But GW's kinda bone headed. I'm hopeful they want every faction they make models for to be able to play well against the other factions they produce. Looks like they're finally headed in that direction. Time will tell. I really wish that had been the case for 7th edition.
We're going to conqueror the universe with flip flops and machetes, it ain't going to be easy but were going to do it.

WAAC players, my biggest complaint - people who make it their hobby to twist bend and break stuff and call it competitive. Otherwise, the vehicle damage table and some OP undercosted nearly unavoidable units, but then again for this see the first complaint, above, as this was the real problem.

 jeff white wrote:
WAAC players, my biggest complaint.

That's not really a complaint about 7e

That's a complaint about 40k

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks as an army have been extremely Flanderized throughout the editions into being a "horde of Boyz" while losing a lot of tools/comedic "utility" that could potentially make such a horde work in the first place!

As a non-Orkz player, I see that GW has very appropriately honed the Ork army focus to serve as "comedic relief" against the Grimmest Darkest Grimdark that ever Grimdarked.

To properly match the Fluff, Orks should NEVER be anywhere close to "competitive" as an army - otherwise, they'd already have taken over the galaxy! That's why their army is correctly designed to randomly self-destruct or flop at critical junctures.

No. I don't agree at all. Comedic relief, sure if you find starvation, beatings, genocide and slavery funny then they're hilarious.

I'm more taken aback by the idea that entire factions should be non-competitive. That same mindset is what led to Orcs&Goblins being borderline unplayable in 7th WHFB while Daemons ("the ultimate bad guy" were able to steamroll most other armies.

The game should be more about generalship and less about "matchup", and both players should have a variety of options beyond the scope of list-building.

Too bad, because GW clearly sees Orks as a joke army.

Warmahordes is over there. >>>

Going into games knowing I was going to lose as a guard player.

It was pretty depressing sometimes. I got good at losing while attempting to have a good spirit.

Now it's often times the opposite.

Using manticores vs riptide wing. AP4? WHO CARES!!! 2+ saves!!!

Had absolutely no problems with 7th other than marines getting everything the xenos should have had again. Loved every game I had, loved the fact my orks felt like orks unlike in 8th.

I just love the fact that a lot of what people were complaining about in 7th was turned up to 11 in 8th and suddenly everyone loves it. Random dice rolls anyone? Also people complain the rules where bloated and yet they have been playing the same core rules for 5 editions, also no one thought there was a "rules" bloat (that no one can agree what it actually is, rules/book/formation) until all the major tournament organisers (that had just jumped on the sigmar wagon after the gh that added points to a game everyone hated the rules for) started posting blogs about the "bloat".

I hate sigmars rules plain and simple but I understand why it had to happen, and yet I would rather play aos than un fun no depth rng tournament hammer that doesn't even stick to its well astablisbed lore, I mean seriously the space marines have a relic called teeth of terra (dorns chainsword) and it's not even unique to the imperial fists, that alone is enough reason for me to despise 8th and any self respecting IF player should at least be annoyed by that weather they like the game or not.

Random dice rolls anyone?

The Issue was not dice rolls as such but that things that should not have been random were: ie Warlord traits, Psychic Abilities etc - which are no longer in 8th ed - so major change for the better.

The "bloat" was that fact that in order to play a given army you have to look in codexes, supplements, downloadable limited edition boxes etc etc etc

Indexes sorted this out for 8th Ed but sadly they are moving back towards it with the new Marine Codex as some units are in one or the other but not both.

TeAXIIIT13 wrote:

I just love the fact that a lot of what people were complaining about in 7th was turned up to 11 in 8th and suddenly everyone loves it. Random dice rolls anyone?

'Everyone' is overstating it somewhat.

The news that 2D6 charge ranges were staying in 8th was one of the big turn-offs for me.

Also people complain the rules where bloated and yet they have been playing the same core rules for 5 editions, also no one thought there was a "rules" bloat (that no one can agree what it actually is, rules/book/formation) until all the major tournament organisers (that had just jumped on the sigmar wagon after the gh that added points to a game everyone hated the rules for) started posting blogs about the "bloat".

People were complaining about rules bloat for at least a decade before AoS came along. It had nothing to do with tournament organisers.

6th and 7th ed just amped it up with a constant stream of rules releases making it almost impossible for players to keep up. Which is what may have made it seem like it was just a tournament thing to you... Not being able to keep up with rules releases is less of an issue for most casual players.

For me:

1) Hot garbage rules with added bloat;

2) Dark Eldar / Flesh Tearer taxi service;

3) Brother Captain Smashfether;

4) Deathstars - case in point, bark bark star or something built around bullet 3;

5) Invisibilty, for extra cheddar add bullets 3 and 4 to it in order to guarantee tears flowing.

'Bout it I think for biggest peeves.

Worst things about 7th?

Excuse me while I set the correct mood - take it away Boyz.


Spill-overs from 6th like Apoc units in normal play.
GMCs, Superheavies and Flyers were terrible. D-weapons were just as bad.
The best MCs in the game weren't from MC armies, or even melee armies, or even monsters for that matter.
The gap between vehicle rules and MC rules.
The gap between shooting and melee in the core rules was huge - in a match between a shootie army and a melee army it was a question of the melee army's ability to cross "no-man's land" on the first turn, if they made it they won, otherwise their overpriced weaponry accounted for exactly squat, or worse, meant less targets for the enemy to kill to prevent them making the trip.
I guess the Alpha Strike should follow on from here but it just swung from shootie armies blowing any melee armies off the field before they managed to cross no-man's land to more melee armies making the trip.
Codex gap - I've got no issue with games being won at the list building level but games were won before lists were even written, some people lost when they chose their army and that's just horrible.
The random patch - most psychic powers were garbage but some psychic powers are so powerful they're game breaking, how do we fix it? Make them random. Supposedly this stops people relying on them...yeah...
The Decurion patch - A result of the codex gap, rather than re-pricing the broken stuff somebody got the bright idea of making unused units "free" to sell more mode - I mean even the game. Some decurions boosted unused units, others just added more hated units to the list alongside Riptides, Stormsurges and Wraithknights.
TFG - yeah, we all know one, some of us know more than one, some of us are one. Most people blame the WAAC guy, the Fluffy At All Cost guy can be just as venomous.

TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
Had absolutely no problems with 7th other than marines getting everything the xenos should have had again. Loved every game I had, loved the fact my orks felt like orks unlike in 8th.

I just love the fact that a lot of what people were complaining about in 7th was turned up to 11 in 8th and suddenly everyone loves it. Random dice rolls anyone? Also people complain the rules where bloated and yet they have been playing the same core rules for 5 editions, also no one thought there was a "rules" bloat (that no one can agree what it actually is, rules/book/formation) until all the major tournament organisers (that had just jumped on the sigmar wagon after the gh that added points to a game everyone hated the rules for) started posting blogs about the "bloat".

No, people had complained about it some time, a simple forum search will show you that. 7E took it to a whole new level though when obtaining the complete game rules went from a ~$700-900 thing to get the core rulebook and every codex and FW book in say, 5E, to many thousands of dollars to collect every codex, supplement, dataslate, campaign book, a triple book core rule set, etc all spread over 4 or 5 different sales channels and the average came time kept creeping up towards 3 hours to deal with all the random charts, card drawing, etc that editions like 3E-5E had significantly less of.

On a more positive note, the thing I think 8th edition did the best in this transition that many past editions lacked was adding chess-like decision making during the battle.

In 7th edition, give me an army and it basically plays itself. This unit is the only thing that can hurt that tank over there so it's probably going to be doing that. This unit is great at quickly assaulting and those guys are awful at assault phase. The list played itself because there were few actual decisions to be made and everything was merely dice rolling on autopilot.

Then 8th edition drops. Command rerolls, strategems, anything can potentially be a threat, buffing auras that alter target priority, the threat of immediate deep strike charges, the removal of the reserves roll allowing a general to plan his assault, modular reinforcement-based daemon summoning, selectable firing modes that actually represent a choice with pros and cons instead of the automatic "this kills more".

I'm hoping as the rules get fleshed out they'll continue focusing on rules and rulebreakers that create a sense of real time leadership of your troops and where a crafty general can defeat an army that is his bane through clever use of unorthodox tactics -- exactly like real life. This is starting to resemble an actual game instead of merely a model-painting Reenactment Platform.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

It will if you're near a mob of 30. :3

So you are spending 85pts for a Trukk to go AS SLOW as a unit of 30 boyz foot sloggin. Why take the trukk in the first place? To get that LD boost from a huge mob you have to be right next to it and the entire point of a Trukk is to deliver its cargo as fast as possible. So your comment doesn't make any sense.

Martel732 wrote:

Compared to other transports, they are cheap. Something with 10 wounds or whatever shouldn't cost 30 pts.

Compared to other Transports they are cheap? They cost 85pts equipped with a big shoota and a Wreckin Ball, Naked they are 76pts which is more then what a Rhino costs. Ironically the reason people took Trukkz at all last edition was for the Assault vehicle rule, this no longer exists and everyone gets it, except you can't move and then unload troops. Rhinos are both more durable and CHEAPER then Trukkz.

 Lance845 wrote:


Thats 30 boys in a vacume. With other bonuses they are hitting drastically more than 90 times. Its possible to get about 6-7 attacks per boy. 8th is about synergy. Looking at the unit on its own is a fallacy.

30 Boyz have 2 attacks base, +1 for choppas, +1 for 20+ models, if Ghaz is nearby they get +1 on the charge, if you have a weirdboy he can cast Warpath for +1 attacks. Grand total? 6, and only on the charge and only if you are within 6in of Ghaz AFTER the charge. 7 attacks is impossible at the moment.

Yes you can buff those attacks, yes you can hit with more attacks, that in no way changes what I said. And with all those buffs, and realistically being the only good buffs we have in our codex we are pretty much required to take Ghaz and Weirdboyz and a Banner Nob in every game and to maximize that points investment we are further obligated to take 90-120boyz and cram them all in the same area so that Ghaz is within 6in of all units.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

It will if you're near a mob of 30. :3

So you are spending 85pts for a Trukk to go AS SLOW as a unit of 30 boyz foot sloggin. Why take the trukk in the first place? To get that LD boost from a huge mob you have to be right next to it and the entire point of a Trukk is to deliver its cargo as fast as possible. So your comment doesn't make any sense.

For protection? If you just wanted speed, it doesn't make sense to pay 85 pts for ~3" extra movement. (Trukks are 12" right? If they're 10" you're getting literally half an inch on average.)

 warhead01 wrote:

It's funny cause you said were..past tense.
They just different now. Mine survive more than one enemy shooting phase now so I'll take it.
You said there was no anti tank. I'm going to guess you haven tried Smasha guns yet. But truthfully I have no idea what you expect from Ork antitank. Did you know Grots now have a 6+ save. Which is really good now that bolters cant auto kill them, or much of anything else.
If you can't figure out how to work with Orks new Mob rule or are simply too stubborn to make it work then that's on you. It's brilliant. If you figure it out you'll do very well.

Yes, Trukkz have the ability to survive longer, and god are they paying for it. 150% increase in price.

Smasha Gunz? 50/50 to hit and then have to roll 2D6 to see if it does anything. That is what you call anti-tank? really?

Grots get a 6+ save now.....who cares? no I mean really who cares? Grots are useless still. You can't even deep strike them onto an objective and hope they stay on it with that cool 6+ save because as soon as a leadership test comes they are going to die in droves.

I am well aware of how to use the new Mob rule and i do my best to maximize its benefits, but the negatives far out weigh our benefits right now. Granted I Play a lot of competitive players who are rather smart and they understand how to strip my units of morale relatively quickly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

It will if you're near a mob of 30. :3

So you are spending 85pts for a Trukk to go AS SLOW as a unit of 30 boyz foot sloggin. Why take the trukk in the first place? To get that LD boost from a huge mob you have to be right next to it and the entire point of a Trukk is to deliver its cargo as fast as possible. So your comment doesn't make any sense.

For protection? If you just wanted speed, it doesn't make sense to pay 85 pts for ~3" extra movement. (Trukks are 12" right? If they're 10" you're getting literally half an inch on average.)

Trukkz go 12 and they can advance, boyz go 5 and the advance cancels each other out. So at the end of turn 1 my Trukk will be at least 7inches away from a foot sloggin horde. And protection? really? You can just take 14 more boyz for about the same price as the Trukk.

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

It's funny cause you said were..past tense.
They just different now. Mine survive more than one enemy shooting phase now so I'll take it.
You said there was no anti tank. I'm going to guess you haven tried Smasha guns yet. But truthfully I have no idea what you expect from Ork antitank. Did you know Grots now have a 6+ save. Which is really good now that bolters cant auto kill them, or much of anything else.
If you can't figure out how to work with Orks new Mob rule or are simply too stubborn to make it work then that's on you. It's brilliant. If you figure it out you'll do very well.

Yes, Trukkz have the ability to survive longer, and god are they paying for it. 150% increase in price.

Smasha Gunz? 50/50 to hit and then have to roll 2D6 to see if it does anything. That is what you call anti-tank? really?

Grots get a 6+ save now.....who cares? no I mean really who cares? Grots are useless still. You can't even deep strike them onto an objective and hope they stay on it with that cool 6+ save because as soon as a leadership test comes they are going to die in droves.

I am well aware of how to use the new Mob rule and i do my best to maximize its benefits, but the negatives far out weigh our benefits right now. Granted I Play a lot of competitive players who are rather smart and they understand how to strip my units of morale relatively quickly.

Would you say this is better or worse than 7th edition trukks?
I know I like them better now.
Smasha Guns are yet another much improved unit from 7th edition. Yes it's random but it's amazing. Hit's on a 4+ which means it can hit flyers on a 5+ Any of them that get past the targets toughness will bleed it out. AP-4 is huge. D6 Damage is fantastic. Heck you could easily kill just about what ever. I tried it I'm hooked I have 6 of them now. I'm tempted to turn all my Mek gunz into Samsha guunz. (That'd give me 12 and I'd feel like a power gamer so I can't do it.) Try Kannons for less points they're quite Killy as well. (Are you playing points or Power Levels? I've done both and I really like the Mek guns better in Power Levels.)
The Grot save hasn't been this goon in 5? editions? Why is that important who cares? Well the poor little grots care. the Space Marines failing to kill them care. Aside from having their shooting weapons changed again they've never seemed more useful. I put them in front, I cover them with my KFF as I move my army forward and now will have them in range of a Pain boy. Not for them they just get the buff while he's there. No one wants to waste their time with fighting Grots. Yes their LD sucks but so far that's not even been an issue. They were charged by a rhino which failed to kill any of them for several turns in my last game. The screen enemy shooting. I can use a Command Point to auto pass their LD test if it's needed bad enough.
I've been on the bad end of the LD test for a few Mobs I know can be bad. I've mostly found that when the other player is put into a big combat and focuses on the wrong small units they're worried about, if they don't kill them all then my lot aren't worried about a LD test. I'll take this LD system over 7th edition's Mob Rule this feels proppa to me.

 warhead01 wrote:


Would you say this is better or worse than 7th edition trukks?

Worse, by far. 7th edition Trukkz were actually better, significantly less durable but more useful for an assault army, especially when Trukk Boyz were still usable.

 warhead01 wrote:

I know I like them better now.
Smasha Guns are yet another much improved unit from 7th edition. Yes it's random but it's amazing. Hit's on a 4+ which means it can hit flyers on a 5+ Any of them that get past the targets toughness will bleed it out. AP-4 is huge. D6 Damage is fantastic. Heck you could easily kill just about what ever. I tried it I'm hooked I have 6 of them now. I'm tempted to turn all my Mek gunz into Samsha guunz. (That'd give me 12 and I'd feel like a power gamer so I can't do it.) Try Kannons for less points they're quite Killy as well. (Are you playing points or Power Levels? I've done both and I really like the Mek guns better in Power Levels.)

Smasha Gunz are not good, they got better but they still aren't where they need to be. Bragging about hitting on a 5+ against flyers really highlights my problem with a lot of our community. We are so used to being crapped on by GW that we actually BRAG about hitting 1/3rd of the time. I agree with you that Kannons are as good. I don't think anyone in the game would think of you as a power gamer if you brought 12 Smasha Gunz. 492pts for 12 S2D6 -4AP D6 damage shots is ridiculously over priced. Right off the bat, against vehicles/flyers you will hit with 6/4 on average, Most vehicles are T7 so you have a 58.3% chance to wound a T7 vehicle (41.7% chance vs T8) So lets round that up to 60% chance and you will wound 3.6 and 2.4 times on average Vs T7. Again lets round UP to 4 and 3. At D6 damage that is 14wounds Vs vehicles and 10ish vs Flyers. That sounds pretty good, except you are seriously over paying for those shots. you are spending more then what it costs to field 3 predator annihilators for the ability to kill one of them a turn. Ohh and Ranged 36 LD4 with a 6+ save...yeah you are going to be running away pretty much the entire game whenever your opponent shoots you.

 warhead01 wrote:

The Grot save hasn't been this goon in 5? editions? Why is that important who cares? Well the poor little grots care. the Space Marines failing to kill them care. Aside from having their shooting weapons changed again they've never seemed more useful. I put them in front, I cover them with my KFF as I move my army forward and now will have them in range of a Pain boy. Not for them they just get the buff while he's there. No one wants to waste their time with fighting Grots. Yes their LD sucks but so far that's not even been an issue. They were charged by a rhino which failed to kill any of them for several turns in my last game. The screen enemy shooting. I can use a Command Point to auto pass their LD test if it's needed bad enough.
I've been on the bad end of the LD test for a few Mobs I know can be bad. I've mostly found that when the other player is put into a big combat and focuses on the wrong small units they're worried about, if they don't kill them all then my lot aren't worried about a LD test. I'll take this LD system over 7th edition's Mob Rule this feels proppa to me.

They are a screening force that no longer gives a mobile cover save. They no longer get a 4+ cover save for being in ruins on an objective. They suck horribly at CC, They are actually WORSE at shooting then they are at CC because they have pistols. Let that sink in, the one unit in our codex we want armed with shootas or good ranged weapons is armed with pistols. You are right that people would rather shoot boyz then Grots but by the same token if they are in range they still can. And if your opponent uses an empty Rhino to block grots for the whole game its a fair trade for him because he doesn't care about that empty rhino either.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks as an army have been extremely Flanderized throughout the editions into being a "horde of Boyz" while losing a lot of tools/comedic "utility" that could potentially make such a horde work in the first place!

As a non-Orkz player, I see that GW has very appropriately honed the Ork army focus to serve as "comedic relief" against the Grimmest Darkest Grimdark that ever Grimdarked.

To properly match the Fluff, Orks should NEVER be anywhere close to "competitive" as an army - otherwise, they'd already have taken over the galaxy! That's why their army is correctly designed to randomly self-destruct or flop at critical junctures.

I wouldn't say that's quite right. I'm no background guru, but the reason I see for the Orks having never taken over the galaxy is because they never work together and there's lots of in-fighting. I'm pretty sure that's been referenced in the background several times. And so that shouldn't mean Orks are a stupid/incompetent/competitive army. They're just as savvy in battle as Space Marines, the only difference being separate factions of Space Marines work together.

Mr Morden wrote:

Random dice rolls anyone?

The Issue was not dice rolls as such but that things that should not have been random were: ie Warlord traits, Psychic Abilities etc - which are no longer in 8th ed - so major change for the better.

The "bloat" was that fact that in order to play a given army you have to look in codexes, supplements, downloadable limited edition boxes etc etc etc

Indexes sorted this out for 8th Ed but sadly they are moving back towards it with the new Marine Codex as some units are in one or the other but not both.

I don't really think this was all that bad. Warlord Traits maybe didn't make sense to be fair, but I think the psychic system worked. Similar to old WHFB magic which was good (it had flaws but nothing to do with spell generation). The issue with 8th now is that you'll get psychic powers that never get used, because they're inferior to others in their discipline and/or because they're not worth casting over Smite. It was annoying, but 7th meant you had to sometimes make things work you wouldn't choose otherwise, which was a nice tactical challenge. Don't get me wrong, I prefer the certainty of always having a certain power, but of all the random things in 7th, psychic powers were far from the worst of it.

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:


Would you say this is better or worse than 7th edition trukks?

Worse, by far. 7th edition Trukkz were actually better, significantly less durable but more useful for an assault army, especially when Trukk Boyz were still usable.

The issue isn't the Trukks themselves. They're more durable now, and can't be one-shotted as they could quite easily be previously. The issue is, as you say, the fact that you'll be relying on bad Ld with such a small boyz unit. While that sadly does mean that boyz in a trukk isn't a competitive choice, there's still plenty of mileage you can get out of trukks - units of 5/6 Nobz with a runt each, MANz, Tankbustas etc

Needing a PhD in xenos and imperial relations both inside and out.

Massive codex imbalance (sooo sick of Eldar / Tau, superfriends etc etc)... too many books, too many pointless rules...

8th edition isn't "the perfect game" but it's far closer, and it's such a breath of fresh air not thinking about fire archs, vehicle facings, tripping and dying on terrain, tons and tons of extra rules etc...

I like in 8th how the challenge is to out play your opponent rather than out rules lawyer them before hitting the table. Every unit can also contribute as they hit and wound on 6's.

It is also great that characters cannot join units and tank all the damage for them which discourages big Deathstar units.

The game flows well and the phases are straight forward and take much less time.

The two things that are annoying in 8th is how easy it is for units to fall back from combat and vehicles without turret weapons shooting our their arse. I can see why they have everything 360 range as it can slow down the game working out firing arcs. However falling back from combat should have a bigger penalty that not being able to shoot i.e. suffer -2 leadership for the rest of the game or suffer D3 wounds of something.

Otherwise its great fun!

The things that discouraged me from playing after a while all the way until 8th was published:
- rules for a single army spread across several sources (rulebook, codex, supplement, other codex, dataslates, campaign book, etc.).
- general clusterfeth of similar, dissimilar and unique rules nigh-impossible to process during a game.
- formations, aka free USRs not for everyone. Especially those that granted virtually free units to certain armies.
- unkillable frankensteinian deathstars composed of units from several codices. Ah, the fun of shooting a model with re-rollable 2+/3++ and FnP...

I hated the super magic friends in 7-th. And the inconsistency in power levels between factions (though, it's still an issue but not as HUGE as it was before).

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:


Would you say this is better or worse than 7th edition trukks?

Worse, by far. 7th edition Trukkz were actually better, significantly less durable but more useful for an assault army, especially when Trukk Boyz were still usable.

 warhead01 wrote:

I know I like them better now.
Smasha Guns are yet another much improved unit from 7th edition. Yes it's random but it's amazing. Hit's on a 4+ which means it can hit flyers on a 5+ Any of them that get past the targets toughness will bleed it out. AP-4 is huge. D6 Damage is fantastic. Heck you could easily kill just about what ever. I tried it I'm hooked I have 6 of them now. I'm tempted to turn all my Mek gunz into Samsha guunz. (That'd give me 12 and I'd feel like a power gamer so I can't do it.) Try Kannons for less points they're quite Killy as well. (Are you playing points or Power Levels? I've done both and I really like the Mek guns better in Power Levels.)

Smasha Gunz are not good, they got better but they still aren't where they need to be. Bragging about hitting on a 5+ against flyers really highlights my problem with a lot of our community. We are so used to being crapped on by GW that we actually BRAG about hitting 1/3rd of the time. I agree with you that Kannons are as good. I don't think anyone in the game would think of you as a power gamer if you brought 12 Smasha Gunz. 492pts for 12 S2D6 -4AP D6 damage shots is ridiculously over priced. Right off the bat, against vehicles/flyers you will hit with 6/4 on average, Most vehicles are T7 so you have a 58.3% chance to wound a T7 vehicle (41.7% chance vs T8) So lets round that up to 60% chance and you will wound 3.6 and 2.4 times on average Vs T7. Again lets round UP to 4 and 3. At D6 damage that is 14wounds Vs vehicles and 10ish vs Flyers. That sounds pretty good, except you are seriously over paying for those shots. you are spending more then what it costs to field 3 predator annihilators for the ability to kill one of them a turn. Ohh and Ranged 36 LD4 with a 6+ save...yeah you are going to be running away pretty much the entire game whenever your opponent shoots you.

 warhead01 wrote:

The Grot save hasn't been this goon in 5? editions? Why is that important who cares? Well the poor little grots care. the Space Marines failing to kill them care. Aside from having their shooting weapons changed again they've never seemed more useful. I put them in front, I cover them with my KFF as I move my army forward and now will have them in range of a Pain boy. Not for them they just get the buff while he's there. No one wants to waste their time with fighting Grots. Yes their LD sucks but so far that's not even been an issue. They were charged by a rhino which failed to kill any of them for several turns in my last game. The screen enemy shooting. I can use a Command Point to auto pass their LD test if it's needed bad enough.
I've been on the bad end of the LD test for a few Mobs I know can be bad. I've mostly found that when the other player is put into a big combat and focuses on the wrong small units they're worried about, if they don't kill them all then my lot aren't worried about a LD test. I'll take this LD system over 7th edition's Mob Rule this feels proppa to me.

They are a screening force that no longer gives a mobile cover save. They no longer get a 4+ cover save for being in ruins on an objective. They suck horribly at CC, They are actually WORSE at shooting then they are at CC because they have pistols. Let that sink in, the one unit in our codex we want armed with shootas or good ranged weapons is armed with pistols. You are right that people would rather shoot boyz then Grots but by the same token if they are in range they still can. And if your opponent uses an empty Rhino to block grots for the whole game its a fair trade for him because he doesn't care about that empty rhino either.

I think the next point of interest is how often do you change your army lists and do they have a core of units that you always use?

For my self I've played foot Orks nearly the same way in 5 editions and now a 6th, (8th edition). I do admit to spending very little time running trukks. I own lots of them, I bought up my friends collection a few years ago. I've had little to no luck with them. I know you need lots of trukks in a list in 7th and probably in 6th to get anything out of them. But aside from how easily they were destroyed the Morale of the Orks and Mob rule....it's no good boss. So in a way it's the same as it is in 8th, not enough boys getting out of the trukks.(for Leadership.)
It's sad that the power levels of every other faction nerffed an already "sawft" codex.
in all of that I think I forgot to list what I've used for years. Bous, Grot Big Guns MANZ and KFF Meks. I reserve the Warboss of larger games 2000 points or more but this was really only over the last two years.
Before that Killa Kans and Deff Dreads were in and a trukk full of burna boys (Back when it all works so well..4th edition...? something like that.)

It just hit me, one of the things I liked about 7th edition. skqadrons for Blitza Bombers.

Good thing Objective Secured was removed from the game, that was one of the great fixes of 8e

Objective Secured will definitely never make it back into the game! Oh wait

 Talamare wrote:
Good thing Objective Secured was removed from the game, that was one of the great fixes of 8e

Objective Secured will definitely never make it back into the game! Oh wait

Why Obj sec was a problem? Only eldar had very powerful troops, and one of the problem in 7th was that there weren't enough troops on average but mostly big guys and bikes.

IMHO problems with 7th were the psychic phase, too unbalanced and powerful for some armies, SM broken formations and their amount of grav shots, troop bikers, some huge undercosted and super effective models that could be spammed rather than taking infantries. Superheroes like cawl, guilliman and celestine were also a big problem but they were released only at the end of 7th edition, the previous version of celestine was ok.

Gibs55 wrote:
I like in 8th how the challenge is to out play your opponent rather than out rules lawyer them before hitting the table. Every unit can also contribute as they hit and wound on 6's.

Nitpick: You don't autohit on 6's. Makes Orks incapable of hitting stormravens at night.

 Blackie wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Good thing Objective Secured was removed from the game, that was one of the great fixes of 8e

Objective Secured will definitely never make it back into the game! Oh wait

Why Obj sec was a problem? Only eldar had very powerful troops, and one of the problem in 7th was that there weren't enough troops on average but mostly big guys and bikes.

IMHO problems with 7th were the psychic phase, too unbalanced and powerful for some armies, SM broken formations and their amount of grav shots, troop bikers, some huge undercosted and super effective models that could be spammed rather than taking infantries. Superheroes like cawl, guilliman and celestine were also a big problem but they were released only at the end of 7th edition, the previous version of celestine was ok.

Obsec by itself wasn't bad. Obsec alongside "rocket tag" objectives was another issue.

The Psychic Phase itself was mostly ok, and just needed some tweaks. Issues were more with specific powers than anything else. That, and the system favored a few big casters over multiple small casters. Still better than 8th if you want to do anything besides spam Smite. In 7e, Psyker Efficiency was F(x)=Log(x) + C. In 8th, F(x) = C, simply because Psychic Focus is a *terrible* rule.

Of the special characters, I can only think of five that were tournament regulars: Azrael (for building a Barkstar), Khan (for an Outflank Gladius), Magnus, Fateweaver, and Masque. Most others were actually rather crappy compared to the "generic" options, or too expensive to be worth fielding. Draigo had a brief run granting Gate to GravCents, and there was a gimmick build with the 6e Eldar codex where Maugan Ra camped in an Aquila Stronghold to Fast Shot a Macro-Cannon, but those were more hilarious novelties rather than all-comers setups.

The psychic phase in 7th was a mess. A boring phase for the opponent and very counter-intuitive for yourself, as all but one Psyker were generally nothing more than batteries.

Smite-spam right now will become less once we get more codizes with 6 powers to choose from. With my DG I never used Smite so far, as the powers from Dark heretic, Nurgle and Death Guard are much more interesting.