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 Mr Morden wrote:

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

Two points - harlequins are not the same cost or stats as a Marine, they are only T3 etc etc

Also the important part is once it gets some new rules to play with so - late 2017, early 2018, late 2018 - maybe not at all if they are not considered a "Major Faction" worthy of a Codex.

remember 10 Codexes before Christmas- three already allocated to Loyalist or Chaos Marines, doubtless more will be so - so likely early 2018 at best before they get their new rules. And they will not be alone.

These are army wide rules - more or less they are given out for free when talking about unit point costs. Funny you mention harlequins are t3 - I am almost always wounding them on 4's. Due to -1 to wound bubbles (which marines don't have access to) - which make harlequins tougher or as tough as marines - not the mention the 4++ saves.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Only if you can make those buffs work. The benefit of normal CP is that they can buff what you need, wherever you need it. With these, sure, you get more rerolls, but in a smaller area. Is it worth getting to roll again another 16% of rolls (assuming a 3+ to hit)?

Are you up versus Stormravens, Raven Guard, Skyweavers, or pretty much anything that adds hit penalties? Extra hits add up.

Chaos: Renegades and Heretics Marauders
Tyranids: You're right, no snipers
Dark Eldar: Eldar Rangers
Harlequins: Eldar Rangers
Genestealer Cults: Astra Militarum snipers and Ratlings
Sisters of Battle: Choose any sniper in the entire Imperium.

Thinking without allies is thinking in 5th edition.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

So none of these armies have deep striking or jump pack units either? Or is this mythical all tanks+Raven Guard Chapter Master list formed some kind of fort out of tanks around the Chapter Master?

Sim-Life wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Well, to start with I meant I don't play AS a gunline. I tend to favor mid-range/melee armies and balanced armies.
Also 3CPs isn't cheap, so it seems fair to me that you're dumping possibly your entire CP stack into maybe two rounds of rerolling misses. I mean that means they're not rerolling saves or FnP on said captain if you bring snipers or whatever.

I also don't feel that blobbing your entire army into a 6" bubble is a particularly effective strategy

"Bring snipers" isn't an all-comer strategy. It also doesn't work if said Chapter Master is buffing Razorbacks or other tanks (it's remarkably easy to block LOS with a metal box).

You get 3 CP for free by default, and 1 CP minimum for most any other detachment that isn't an Auxiliary or a standalone Superheavy.

A flat reroll to hit is superior to rerolling 1s, by merit of offsetting hit penalties. 3+ rerolling 1s is 28 in 36 hits, while 3s rerolling everything is 32 in 36 hits. However, 4s rerolling 1s is 21 in 36, but 4s rerolling everything is 27 in 36 (only 1 in 36 worse than 3s rerolling 1s) The difference continues to go in favor of flat rerolls the more hit penalties are applied.

It's still arguably superior to anything that is just a "singular" reroll, especially if you have spare Battalion CP on-hand and feel cheeky enough to want to play with multiple Predators.

I love that you boiled my post down to "bring snipers", despite the fact that it was just a suggestion as to a situation where your opponent may want to save some CPs instead of burning them all over two turns. I remember why I dislike internet wargaming communities. Everything people dislike as strong is all powerful and unbeatable. You know what's great about 40k? You get given A LOT of tools in armies. You get flyers, deep strikers, charges on turn 1, snipers, alpha strikers, tanks, transports, hordes, flankers and probably more stuff I'm forgetting. If for some reason a single chapter master hiding behind a tank is something you legitimately worry about, maybe take one (or maybe several) of the tools the game gives you to fix that problem.

I mean I suppose you could just throw your hands up and lie down and die when your opponent puts down Raven Guard. Doesn't seem fun to me but whatever. Half the fun of games to me is overcoming my opponent with the tools I have, not just giving up at the first failed armor save.

I'm not trying to get into a micro-discussion about tactics.

When, in 7th, the necron codex came out, they were instantly the strongest faction in the game because they got something - the decurion - that other factions didn't get, and they got it for free, i.e. without paying any in-game resource for it.

The only balancing factor of decurions/formations is "hey, your guys will probably get something equally broken *at some point*." For many factions, including really major ones like Orks and Guard, *at some point* never happened, the edition ended before they ever got to be on par with the necrons who at that point had been around for 2.5 years.

The indexes dropped, and things were relatively on par. A few balancing issues, but it was mostly "unit X uses resource Y a little too efficiently".

But now, immediately, we're right back on the 7th ed bandwagon. The list of "haves" and "Have-nots" is already established, and it's only going to get worse as one faction at a time gets their free gak and becomes stronger than everyone else, with no compensation except "wait your turn" for the factions who have yet to see a codex release.

 Talamare wrote:
That detachments provided insane bonuses that were not balanced between armies and a ton of insane free stats, points, and abilities?

Well, I guess it wasn't exactly free since there were some arbitrarily easy unit requirement.

Anyone else feeling 8e is on the fast train to basically what broke 7e...

There was a multitude of issues with 7E. Power bloat and massive imbalance in general fueled by a multitude of issues from detachment/formation freebies to core rule issues and codex bloat, coupled with an insane number of rules sources that made it impossible to keep everything straight or know all the game content, and a game that kept continually stretching scale issues in both directions, with gobs of pointless random rolls for everything from mission objectives to terrain and whatnot that stripped agency from the players and left too much at the mercy of random D6 effects that had to be looked up in a separate table every 5 minutes.

8E is an improvement, but not as great of one that 40k really needs, and looks likely to potentially retread much of the same ground, we'll see what the future holds I guess.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
(r I could just sum it up as 7th edition was an angry edition and made me not way to play because I felt like every game would be a loss, Orks just didn't play like Orks.
The rules weren't bad really but the armies weren't on a level enough playing field.
I was ready to sell everything and then we got the 8th edition rumors and leaks and suddenly I wanted to play again.
So far I've had good games and not be at a disadvantage for playing my chosen faction.

I definitely sympathize with this. I played Orks in 5th, and lamented the loss of Wazdakka, Nob Troops, or other options that 7e stripped out. The Ork FAQ further read like the rule team was giving the finger ("Do Orks inflict S4 hits on each other, even though they're only S3?" "Yes. They're *really* fired up." "Is Grotsnik's Cybork body useless?" "Yes. He is quite mad after all!" and so on so forth).

Even if the 8e Mob Rule is better and the flattened damage charts mask the limited toolbox Orks have to work with, a lot of the same attitudes from 7th are still present in an Ork army. Hit mods penalize Orks way more than other armies (to the point the Orks literally cannot hit certain targets), which nullifies the idea of running them as a Dakka army. Ardboyz and Looted Wagons are gone, because "GW doesn't make models for them", and I seriously doubt they will get more options to let them run as anything else than a melee blob.

I think a big part of it is the whole now models no rules thing. I haven't like any Ork codes (so far) after the 3rd edition codex. It remains to be seen for the 8th edition codex. But aside from the choppa rule which, is was what it was, There were loads of options in that book. They did cost lots of points but they were there. I could have a War Boss with a 3+and a 5++ I could do the same for Nobs.
If these units are suppose to be big and bad on the table as they are in the fluff they need options to make that possible.
I'm not going to beat a dead horse. 8th edition is looking good for my Orks and been a blast so far. I've played Orks in the Age of Darkness before and those games seemed much more balanced than 40K to me which implies 7th edition could be more balanced or even Ork friendly But given to option, which I have now I'll never Orks in 30K or 40K 7th edition again.
On a side note to that I am now committing to finishing my 30K army. Even if I hardly use it at least it'll all be built and painted for those games and easier to transport.

Sim-Life wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

So none of these armies have deep striking or jump pack units either? Or is this mythical all tanks+Raven Guard Chapter Master list formed some kind of fort out of tanks around the Chapter Master?

Amusingly enough, Sisters don't get meaningful Deep Strike since their "special issue" pistols are range 6. Tyranids get Spores, yes, but at exceedingly inefficient economy of force; Tyranids had always been built as a "small units kill infantry, big units kill tanks" army, and this is slightly less true in 8th; ironically, your best bet is to just poke the tanks with a large Hormagaunt unit, surround them, and turn the game into a ticklefight. Chaos Daemons require Summoning to "approximate" Deep Strike. Chaos gets...Obliterators? Aka they cost more than the units they're trying to DS (and then you have the whole "random strength" gun part to deal with). Oh sure, you could get Warp Talons and hope your opponent has no bubblewrap, which is an arguably generous hope given how 9" bubbles overlap. Or you could just Warptime a unit of Spawn into the fray and get to smashing, and be more efficient at smashing your foe. IIRC, Harlequins also don't get DS, but they get Starweavers so it's more of a wash


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Only if you can make those buffs work. The benefit of normal CP is that they can buff what you need, wherever you need it. With these, sure, you get more rerolls, but in a smaller area. Is it worth getting to roll again another 16% of rolls (assuming a 3+ to hit)?

Are you up versus Stormravens, Raven Guard, Skyweavers, or pretty much anything that adds hit penalties? Extra hits add up.

Chaos: Renegades and Heretics Marauders
Tyranids: You're right, no snipers
Dark Eldar: Eldar Rangers
Harlequins: Eldar Rangers
Genestealer Cults: Astra Militarum snipers and Ratlings
Sisters of Battle: Choose any sniper in the entire Imperium.

Thinking without allies is thinking in 5th edition.

And thinking an army is ok because you can "take allies" to cover gaping holes in their ability to be all-comers is thinking in 6th/7th edition.

the_scotsman wrote:


I'm not trying to get into a micro-discussion about tactics.

When, in 7th, the necron codex came out, they were instantly the strongest faction in the game because they got something - the decurion - that other factions didn't get, and they got it for free, i.e. without paying any in-game resource for it.

The only balancing factor of decurions/formations is "hey, your guys will probably get something equally broken *at some point*." For many factions, including really major ones like Orks and Guard, *at some point* never happened, the edition ended before they ever got to be on par with the necrons who at that point had been around for 2.5 years.

The indexes dropped, and things were relatively on par. A few balancing issues, but it was mostly "unit X uses resource Y a little too efficiently".

But now, immediately, we're right back on the 7th ed bandwagon. The list of "haves" and "Have-nots" is already established, and it's only going to get worse as one faction at a time gets their free gak and becomes stronger than everyone else, with no compensation except "wait your turn" for the factions who have yet to see a codex release.

But this isn't 7th edition and SMs don't get a super broken formation right off the bat. They get more options than other armies, but none of them seem particularly broken or insurmountable. By this logic then the newest codex release will always be the strongest, which we know is wrong.

Sure, there's not one single, big, broken decurion that we can point a finger at and say "THATS what's breaking the game."

Instead, Space Marines get free rules in the form of Chapter Tactics, much more efficient uses of in-game resources in the form of unique stratagems, objectively far better warlord traits, and far more options than anyone else gets with relics and more psychic powers.

Stack all that on top of the fact that Space Marines have been, so far, among the strongest factions in tournament play, and while we may not be at "7th edition eldar codex drop" level, we're certainly doing something similar directly on the heels of the game *finally* getting the reset it so desperately needed.

So yeah, it's a little demoralizing. Nobody's claiming that Space Marines are unbeatable, but I am going to ask my Space Marine opponents if I'm running an index faction at least not to use the free stuff that is chapter tactics, which is exactly what I do when I play Age of Sigmar.

There were so many easy ways to avoid this. A point cost for chapter tactics. Better generic stratagems/more complete psychic power lists. slightly increased point costs across the board for models that will benefit from CTs. But GW didn't, and instead they're touting how much stronger they've made marines than everyone else as a selling point of the codex, with a lovely insulting little foot note for every non-marine "Just think of all the cool stuff YOU'LL get when we eventually get around to you, Dark Eldar/Harlequin/Sisters of Battle/Genestealer Cult player! When Hell freezes over you'll get some sizzlin' hot subfaction tactics to keep you warm!"

The subject of the thread is "What was the major complaint with 7th?" The answer is: Exactly what they're doing right now with codexes in 8th.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

Two points - harlequins are not the same cost or stats as a Marine, they are only T3 etc etc

Also the important part is once it gets some new rules to play with so - late 2017, early 2018, late 2018 - maybe not at all if they are not considered a "Major Faction" worthy of a Codex.

remember 10 Codexes before Christmas- three already allocated to Loyalist or Chaos Marines, doubtless more will be so - so likely early 2018 at best before they get their new rules. And they will not be alone.

These are army wide rules - more or less they are given out for free when talking about unit point costs. Funny you mention harlequins are t3 - I am almost always wounding them on 4's. Due to -1 to wound bubbles (which marines don't have access to) - which make harlequins tougher or as tough as marines - not the mention the 4++ saves.

Unit cost is unit cost - a unit is fine, underpowered or overpowered - some are claiming that Marines are currently underpowered in the Index and that the new stuff is already included in the costs? Do you think the same? Not convinced myself.

It also notable that there were quite a few points drops in the new codex and not a single points increase. There is a lot of new moving parts with the new Dex and how it all fits together.

Lets spin this around - so if by some miracle Harlequins are one of the chosen couple of Non Marine dexes before Christmas - in fact straight after Deathguard.

They get Masque Tactics, the Free Relic(s) and new Stratagems on top of the abilities above.

Are Harlequins over-costed at the moment and need Codex boosting for free, likely coupled with points drops?

For me it was a combination of things;

- Massive unbalance between armies, probably the worst since GK arrived in 5th.
- Bloat, with codeci needing multiple additional books in order to field legal armies.
- Formations and Detatchmentbonuses adding stupidly powerful (and often free) bonuses to armies and units, who mostly didn't even need them to begin with.
- Superheavies being "a thing" in normal games, despite many armies having no real chance against them.
- The Psychic Phase for some armies, felt very unwieldy. Much simpler and faster now in 8th. I remember avoiding my Thousand Sons because I didn't want to go trough with deciding psychic powers and then casting all of them several times over the course of a game.
- Some rules in general, like removing closest casualties first added to the unbalance.

I've already played more games of 8th Ed. than 7th Ed.
Some people complain about the Imperium 1 index being invalidated so soon...I barely opened my 7th Eldar and 7th SM codex. Talk about money well spent.

MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

My least favorite thing about 7th is that they gave everyone the freedom to build awesome themed lists, and then people didn't do that and built the best deathstars instead.

Fortunately you can still build cool themed lists in 8th, though people are already crying about superheavies et al.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

I play CSM. My closest thing to a "tool" for sniping out characters is either ninja-jumping a Heldrake and hoping my opponent didn't screen their character, or waiting for Noise Marines to die while they're conveniently in Line of Sight, or cheating with casino dice for Infernal Gaze. I suppose I could get cute and take Exalted Flamers instead of actual CSM HQs because they're cheaper, more expendable, and have actual AT guns, so I have the option to hang back and shoot while summoning. At that point though, I might as well be playing a Daemon army, rather than actual Chaos Space Marines. Or there's going "take Magnus, hurr" because the restriction on *attempting* to cast a power more than once per turn means you want the caster that gets bonuses to cast in the first place.

This was an actual issue in 7th edition incidentally, and Wrath of Magnus was the perfect example of this. Warp Charge scaled logarithmically for linear point investments, making it better to have one "big caster" and smaller "battery" casters rather than a bunch of medium casters. Rubric Marines and Sorcerers were already overcosted, and a unit of them was 150 points for *one* Warp Charge; meanwhile, WoM added Heralds Anarchic and Blue Horrors, so Daemons could spend 100 points for 4 Warp Charge. Point-for-point, this was a 6-fold increase in WC efficiency. Guess which army you saw Magnus in (protip: You never actually saw him with Thousand Son Marines).

Perhaps the most hilarious component though was the power Siphon Magic. Siphon Magic was a real mess of a power, because as a Blessing, when it was cast, it meant that whenever a power was successfully manifested nearby, that caster gained a token that could be spent as a Warp Charge point. Other than the funny RAW (Warp Charge was innately not tied to an individual Psyker, and there were no rules for "tokens." Could you store them from turn to turn?), this led to the hilarious issue that the power was awesome for hi-level casters like Magnus, but useless for Level 1 casters like Aspiring Sorcerers (since casting Siphon Magic would prevent casting any other powers, making the extra "Warp Charge" from Siphon Magic useless!).

Despite this, I almost prefer the 7e system to 8e, despite the idiocy that came from GW writing rules that make Bethesda look competent at launch. "May only attempt to cast a power once per turn" is not innately scalable, "spam smite" makes Psyker powers dull and a one-dimensional gun analogue, and it doesn't actually address internal balance between said powers ("Hmm, do I take Warptime or Infernal Gaze? Warptime is clearly superior, hurr.") Imagine if Guard could only issue each Order once per turn, and you had to take a Leadership check for it. Or imagine Sisters only got *one* Act of Faith per turn, period.

Tyranids have lictors and deathleaper to act as character assassins instead of "sniper" units and a carnifex, ht, or swarmlord or trygon is far more efficient at destroying a vehicle then a swarm of hormagaunts. Hell, the exocrine does a pretty great job too.

7th was one giant train wreck. Yes formations were bad. But more importantly 80+usrs, over a dozen unit types, poor assault rules, 4 or 5 resolution methods, vehicles function entirely different from everything else in the game compounding all the other issues and creating major power gaps in units.

8th has 2 problems. The detachments are too open. You can take anything with no real restriction or drawback. Maybe it wont seem so bad when more strategems are available and command points become a more valuable comodity.

And the igougo turn structure is archaic and dull. Game play could be spead up and become significantly more tactical if we had better turn structure. Why gw insists on sticking with a mechanic structure thats like 30-40 years old is beyond me.

There was nothing good about 7th.

From formations to the old doubling down characters to death.

oh and invisibility and rerollable 2+ saves

Basically a no fun zone.

Agreed that "Take Allies" is not an appropriate solution. If I play CSM, I want to play CSM, not CSM and Daemons, or mostly Daemons.

If I play Harlequins, I don't want to take Eldar. (Death Jest is a sniper, by the way-just not a good one.)

Most formations were pretty cool, actually. They gave situational bonuses that encouraged someone to field odd units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Agreed that "Take Allies" is not an appropriate solution. If I play CSM, I want to play CSM, not CSM and Daemons, or mostly Daemons.

If I play Harlequins, I don't want to take Eldar. (Death Jest is a sniper, by the way-just not a good one.)

7th ed BA fix: take your battle bros who do everything better!

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

So none of these armies have deep striking or jump pack units either? Or is this mythical all tanks+Raven Guard Chapter Master list formed some kind of fort out of tanks around the Chapter Master?

Amusingly enough, Sisters don't get meaningful Deep Strike since their "special issue" pistols are range 6. Tyranids get Spores, yes, but at exceedingly inefficient economy of force; Tyranids had always been built as a "small units kill infantry, big units kill tanks" army, and this is slightly less true in 8th; ironically, your best bet is to just poke the tanks with a large Hormagaunt unit, surround them, and turn the game into a ticklefight. Chaos Daemons require Summoning to "approximate" Deep Strike. Chaos gets...Obliterators? Aka they cost more than the units they're trying to DS (and then you have the whole "random strength" gun part to deal with). Oh sure, you could get Warp Talons and hope your opponent has no bubblewrap, which is an arguably generous hope given how 9" bubbles overlap. Or you could just Warptime a unit of Spawn into the fray and get to smashing, and be more efficient at smashing your foe. IIRC, Harlequins also don't get DS, but they get Starweavers so it's more of a wash

This is the last time I'll reply because it's going off topic but AGAIN you've focused down on a singular phrase rather than adressing my point as whole.

No Sister's don't have a deep strike unit, they do have a unit with 4 meltaguns (or 4 flamers, you're choice) that can be applied to tanks at close range on turn 1. Their transport ALSO has meltaguns or a 2d6 flamer on it incidentally.
Tyranids have more than drop pods, they have trygons, trygon tunnels, mawlocs, lictors, Deathleaper, The Red Terror and raveners. I think gargoyles can deep strike as well. Last time I played nids I had a whole detachment of underground based units for deep striking because I liked the idea.
Orks have Da Jump or whatever it's called.
I dunno about Chaos though because no one I know plays them and I've never been interested in them so I'll refrain from comment. I've been meaning to look into daemons though since my Fantasy Daemon army has been languishing in the Warp because I don't want to play AoS

Martel732 wrote:
Most formations were pretty cool, actually. They gave situational bonuses that encouraged someone to field odd units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Agreed that "Take Allies" is not an appropriate solution. If I play CSM, I want to play CSM, not CSM and Daemons, or mostly Daemons.

If I play Harlequins, I don't want to take Eldar. (Death Jest is a sniper, by the way-just not a good one.)

7th ed BA fix: take your battle bros who do everything better!

"


HAHA, Yup. Orkz don't have any way to win games atm. Solution? Have you tried taking some Space Marines or Elves with your Orkz? No because if I wanted to play elves or Mehreens I would have BOUGHT THAT ARMY!

As to my biggest complaint about 7th? Starting every game knowing I was at an immediate disadvantage, and if I made any mistakes on movement, positioning or shooting I was going to be losing. Ohh and having about 2/3rds to 3/4ths of my Codex be basically unusable.

Granted this seems to still be the case in 8th so nothing has changed.

Orks are much better off in 8th, don't kid yourself. You can be better off and still be towards the bottom. The bottom has just risen a lot.

Martel732 wrote:
Orks are much better off in 8th, don't kid yourself. You can be better off and still be towards the bottom. The bottom has just risen a lot.

I dispute that entirely. We have gotten noticeably worse in most areas and marginally better in some.

Most notably, Orkz now lack anti-tank units/weapons almost across the board. Tank bustas are actually worse this edition because of the huge increase in price to Trukkz and the fact that with the new cover rules they HAVE TO BE in a vehicle.

So beyond tank bustas our best way to get rid of a vehicle? Meganobz with Sawz. And that is a hefty price tag for a unit and is easily eliminated by enemy units.

Basically the only really good thing in our codex is Boyz and Weirdboyz who both got "buffed" and i used the quotation marks because Boyz gained +1 strength (no more furious charge) but lost an attack and 1 inch of movement. They nerfed Ere We Go and made Trukk Boyz/Wagon Boyz almost unusable. So we are left with foot sloggin (Slow) mobz that are easily dealt with by a number of enemy units and people are starting to figure out what is the best way to counter those hordes. Because keep in mind, it wasn't just orkz who got better for hordes it was IG, Nidz and Chaos as well. And once we start seeing players using more anti-horde weapons, Orkz will be right back at the bottom of the pile....technically they are already there but hey, whatever.

You can dispute it, but I think you are very, very wrong. Trukks are more expensive, but actually can perform their jobs now. The Ork mobs are nothing short of terrifying, and a balanced list will always struggle to handle these hordes, I think. Ork mobs punch out T7 vehicles and less just fine. T8+ are an issue, but most of them are very pricey. And they're not being taken in the meta from what I've seen.

Also, Gorka/Morka nauts are legit now. One of them killed my entire DC squad in one round. But yeah, Orks have nothing, sure.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

Two points - harlequins are not the same cost or stats as a Marine, they are only T3 etc etc

Also the important part is once it gets some new rules to play with so - late 2017, early 2018, late 2018 - maybe not at all if they are not considered a "Major Faction" worthy of a Codex.

remember 10 Codexes before Christmas- three already allocated to Loyalist or Chaos Marines, doubtless more will be so - so likely early 2018 at best before they get their new rules. And they will not be alone.

These are army wide rules - more or less they are given out for free when talking about unit point costs. Funny you mention harlequins are t3 - I am almost always wounding them on 4's. Due to -1 to wound bubbles (which marines don't have access to) - which make harlequins tougher or as tough as marines - not the mention the 4++ saves.

Unit cost is unit cost - a unit is fine, underpowered or overpowered - some are claiming that Marines are currently underpowered in the Index and that the new stuff is already included in the costs? Do you think the same? Not convinced myself.

It also notable that there were quite a few points drops in the new codex and not a single points increase. There is a lot of new moving parts with the new Dex and how it all fits together.

Lets spin this around - so if by some miracle Harlequins are one of the chosen couple of Non Marine dexes before Christmas - in fact straight after Deathguard.

They get Masque Tactics, the Free Relic(s) and new Stratagems on top of the abilities above.

Are Harlequins over-costed at the moment and need Codex boosting for free, likely coupled with points drops?

I see your point. You fear the codex creep. Jezz I hope that doesn't happen. Also - Harlequin power level is right up there with codex marines IMO. So - its really scary to think about them getting stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
There was nothing good about 7th.

From formations to the old doubling down characters to death.

oh and invisibility and rerollable 2+ saves

Basically a no fun zone.

Yeah I totally agree - Balls to the walls competitive 7th - I'm pretty sure that is what prison feels like.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

I play CSM. My closest thing to a "tool" for sniping out characters is either ninja-jumping a Heldrake and hoping my opponent didn't screen their character, or waiting for Noise Marines to die while they're conveniently in Line of Sight, or cheating with casino dice for Infernal Gaze. I suppose I could get cute and take Exalted Flamers instead of actual CSM HQs because they're cheaper, more expendable, and have actual AT guns, so I have the option to hang back and shoot while summoning. At that point though, I might as well be playing a Daemon army, rather than actual Chaos Space Marines. Or there's going "take Magnus, hurr" because the restriction on *attempting* to cast a power more than once per turn means you want the caster that gets bonuses to cast in the first place.

This was an actual issue in 7th edition incidentally, and Wrath of Magnus was the perfect example of this. Warp Charge scaled logarithmically for linear point investments, making it better to have one "big caster" and smaller "battery" casters rather than a bunch of medium casters. Rubric Marines and Sorcerers were already overcosted, and a unit of them was 150 points for *one* Warp Charge; meanwhile, WoM added Heralds Anarchic and Blue Horrors, so Daemons could spend 100 points for 4 Warp Charge. Point-for-point, this was a 6-fold increase in WC efficiency. Guess which army you saw Magnus in (protip: You never actually saw him with Thousand Son Marines).

Perhaps the most hilarious component though was the power Siphon Magic. Siphon Magic was a real mess of a power, because as a Blessing, when it was cast, it meant that whenever a power was successfully manifested nearby, that caster gained a token that could be spent as a Warp Charge point. Other than the funny RAW (Warp Charge was innately not tied to an individual Psyker, and there were no rules for "tokens." Could you store them from turn to turn?), this led to the hilarious issue that the power was awesome for hi-level casters like Magnus, but useless for Level 1 casters like Aspiring Sorcerers (since casting Siphon Magic would prevent casting any other powers, making the extra "Warp Charge" from Siphon Magic useless!).

Despite this, I almost prefer the 7e system to 8e, despite the idiocy that came from GW writing rules that make Bethesda look competent at launch. "May only attempt to cast a power once per turn" is not innately scalable, "spam smite" makes Psyker powers dull and a one-dimensional gun analogue, and it doesn't actually address internal balance between said powers ("Hmm, do I take Warptime or Infernal Gaze? Warptime is clearly superior, hurr.") Imagine if Guard could only issue each Order once per turn, and you had to take a Leadership check for it. Or imagine Sisters only got *one* Act of Faith per turn, period.

The problem lies in the Psychic Focus rule not being scalable at all. Many Tyranids units get penalized since they pay an extra for Psychic capabilities and these are often wasted on Smite-spam

Ive said it before il promote it forever. Dont play matched. Play open and use most of the matched rules.

Psychic focus is dumb. Just house rule that powers dont stack with themselves so -1 ld and to hit the horror cannot cripple a unit and the games scales and functions great.

The problem with 7E was that it was 6E, but moreso.

Overladen with charts and special rules, rules and special rules that referenced other rules. It's basically 40k for librarians & lawyers. All of the fun got sucked out because it was a bloated mechanical disaster, with so much randomness for the sake of randomness.

Martel732 wrote:
You can dispute it, but I think you are very, very wrong. Trukks are more expensive, but actually can perform their jobs now. The Ork mobs are nothing short of terrifying, and a balanced list will always struggle to handle these hordes, I think. Ork mobs punch out T7 vehicles and less just fine. T8+ are an issue, but most of them are very pricey. And they're not being taken in the meta from what I've seen.

Also, Gorka/Morka nauts are legit now. One of them killed my entire DC squad in one round. But yeah, Orks have nothing, sure.

30 Ork boyz will put out 120 attacks (if they all got in range) They will hit 90 times, against T7 they will wound 30 times. Against a 3+ save that is 10 wounds. YAY! of course that is also saying like I said ALL of them got in range, all of them rolled average and the opponent only had a 3+ save and no extra stuff like the -1 to hit or the -1 to wound or the 2+ armor save.

Against T8 with a 2+ save though, those 90 hits turn into 15 wounds which equals 2.5 wounds going through after the 2+ save. all with the same stipulations mentioned above. Also if orkz don't have a warboss nearby they don't get to advance and assault, they also suffer severe problems from leadership and lack of ability to kill tough models with good saves.

Gorkanaut is considered to be OK by most of us and that is strictly because of its number of close combat attacks. Its actually hitting significantly harder then a stompa point for point in close combat. Its ranged weaponry though is a joke and all but ignored. So you are saying you are afraid of a 364pt model that moves 8 inches a turn and gets 4 hits with a S6 weapon and 2 hits with a S5 weapon at range a turn? (Rokkit will miss more often then not and the Skorcha is short ranged) It actually costs more then a land raider, is slower then a land raider, is less durable then a land raider (it has 2 more wounds but the LR has a 2+ save) and can only really do damage when it gets into CC. Where as the Land Raider can put out a hurting UNTIL it gets into CC.

You assaulted or allowed a slow walker to assault your assault unit that is designed solely to kill things in CC and were surprised you lost to a model that costs significantly more then your death company.

And the Morkanut? its worse then the GOrkanaut by far.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
MagicJuggler - If you won't use the tools available to your army in order to counter a threat, then I can't really say much else.

I play CSM. My closest thing to a "tool" for sniping out characters is either ninja-jumping a Heldrake and hoping my opponent didn't screen their character, or waiting for Noise Marines to die while they're conveniently in Line of Sight, or cheating with casino dice for Infernal Gaze. I suppose I could get cute and take Exalted Flamers instead of actual CSM HQs because they're cheaper, more expendable, and have actual AT guns, so I have the option to hang back and shoot while summoning. At that point though, I might as well be playing a Daemon army, rather than actual Chaos Space Marines. Or there's going "take Magnus, hurr" because the restriction on *attempting* to cast a power more than once per turn means you want the caster that gets bonuses to cast in the first place.

This was an actual issue in 7th edition incidentally, and Wrath of Magnus was the perfect example of this. Warp Charge scaled logarithmically for linear point investments, making it better to have one "big caster" and smaller "battery" casters rather than a bunch of medium casters. Rubric Marines and Sorcerers were already overcosted, and a unit of them was 150 points for *one* Warp Charge; meanwhile, WoM added Heralds Anarchic and Blue Horrors, so Daemons could spend 100 points for 4 Warp Charge. Point-for-point, this was a 6-fold increase in WC efficiency. Guess which army you saw Magnus in (protip: You never actually saw him with Thousand Son Marines).

Perhaps the most hilarious component though was the power Siphon Magic. Siphon Magic was a real mess of a power, because as a Blessing, when it was cast, it meant that whenever a power was successfully manifested nearby, that caster gained a token that could be spent as a Warp Charge point. Other than the funny RAW (Warp Charge was innately not tied to an individual Psyker, and there were no rules for "tokens." Could you store them from turn to turn?), this led to the hilarious issue that the power was awesome for hi-level casters like Magnus, but useless for Level 1 casters like Aspiring Sorcerers (since casting Siphon Magic would prevent casting any other powers, making the extra "Warp Charge" from Siphon Magic useless!).

Despite this, I almost prefer the 7e system to 8e, despite the idiocy that came from GW writing rules that make Bethesda look competent at launch. "May only attempt to cast a power once per turn" is not innately scalable, "spam smite" makes Psyker powers dull and a one-dimensional gun analogue, and it doesn't actually address internal balance between said powers ("Hmm, do I take Warptime or Infernal Gaze? Warptime is clearly superior, hurr.") Imagine if Guard could only issue each Order once per turn, and you had to take a Leadership check for it. Or imagine Sisters only got *one* Act of Faith per turn, period.

The problem lies in the Psychic Focus rule not being scalable at all. Many Tyranids units get penalized since they pay an extra for Psychic capabilities and these are often wasted on Smite-spam

Psychic focus is a really bad rule. How about - just don't make broken powers live invisibility and it doesn't matter if they cast it twice. As long as the psyker is properly costed.

Ohh, and Trukkz don't perform their job anymore. They were designed as a CHEAP transport for Ork Boyz squads. GW even sold a unit called "Trukk Boyz" but now if you take "Trukk Boyz" you will lose any benefits you normally get for leadership because LD 7 (with nob) won't save you.