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Post by: Overread
Sadly the KS has been ended and it appears that Spartan Games have closed doors.
http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games
This is a huge shock; whilst there was writing on the walls that there were problems the sudden closure is a big surprise.
Copy of the announcement text from the link above:
The following statement is issued today, Friday 25th August 2017.
Following a prolonged period of challenging trading and despite the directors’ best efforts to manage through, Rebel Publishing Ltd was unable to continue to trade and the directors have taken the difficult decision to cease. All members of staff were made redundant.
The company, which traded as Spartan Games, is a Somerset, UK based provider of tabletop miniature games which include
Uncharted Seas, a fantasy naval combat game (now retired)
Firestorm Armada, an exciting space combat game featuring highly detailed starship models
Dystopian Legions, a game based in the world of Dystopian Wars using highly detailed 32mm scale figures and vehicles (now retired)
Dystopian Wars– an exciting journey in a Victorian sci-fi world encompassing naval combat, ground warfare and aerial combat.
Spartan Scenics – a range of detailed and easily assembled wargames terrain.
Rebel Publishing Ltd was formed in July 2002 and traded successfully for a number of years. Spartan Games was launched in 2008 and grew rapidly. However, the tabletop games market is challenging and has changed over recent years, and suppliers are predominantly a small number of large well-known names and several small, cottage industry, type businesses.
Initially the business outsourced production but following quality control and production management issues, manufacturing was moved in house between 2009 and 2011. Over this time and since, significant investment was made into machinery and infrastructure. The business also expanded to provide models for a well known video game, moving this into the tabletop games arena. However, significant new development costs, timing issues and the deflection of management time from the core games brands resulted in a significant trading loss for 2015/6. The business was able to continue to trade by raising additional finance and refocusing on core brands, and direct / online trading improved significantly. Results for 2016/17 were significantly improved.
However, despite this it continued to encounter challenging trading conditions and it became clear this month that the company could not continue to service its liabilities, particularly given the burden imposed by the amounts owing to finance companies.
The company was in the process of running a Kickstarter project to raise funds for expansion of one of its successful product lines. This was well supported and positive feedback on the new products was given showing the popularity of the product line and ongoing demand. However, this does not, unfortunately, provide the full range of success and resources needed to sustain the business.
In addition to challenging trading issues, one of the directors has suffered from a long period of poor health which became significantly more serious earlier this year and although now back in the business, requires ongoing treatment. That has inevitably taken a toll on the amount of time available to the business so, along with other challenges, has significantly contributed to this difficult decision.
The directors are extremely saddened by this decision and particularly regret any losses incurred by employees, customers, suppliers or other trading partners. The directors fully committed their time, energy and personal resources to effect a turnaround. Employees will receive redundancy payments through state funds and although efforts have been made to fulfil customer orders, it is hoped that anyone who does not receive their goods will be able to redeem their payments through their credit card or PayPal.
If customers have made a deposit or paid for goods or services by credit or debit card and the goods or services are not going to be received by the due date, they may be able to get their money back by claiming a refund from their card issuer. They should contact their card issuer as soon as possible. Further information including time limits that apply is available from the UK Cards Association: Credit and debit cards: A consumer guide. Similar schemes exist in other countries.
Throughout the years that Spartan Games has traded, it has prided itself on the highest level of product quality and customer satisfaction. This has been delivered consistently and is evidenced though annual customer research that the company has undertaken.
We would encourage anybody who may be interested in acquiring either stock, assets or the business to make contact as soon as possible. Spartan Games and its product lines have a strong reputation in its markets together with an asset base which may be of interest to a number of parties, and a variety of machinery in addition to Intellectual Property.
All enquiries about this matter should be sent to spartangames@mail.com
Update regarding the Dystopian Wars Kickstarter
Spartan have posted an update on the Dystopian Wars Kickstarter, it offer a glimmer of hope for backers
To all backers of this project, we sincerely regret the recent announcement of the closure of our company and those impacted including people waiting for products from this project. We hope you understand that our priority yesterday was our staff and then getting a formal statement out to the market. That was shared, via email, with everyone on this project.
As explained in the statement, there are policies in place with payment providers around the world for goods that are not received. Please explore these as appropriate to your payment method and location.
Monday is a public holiday in the UK but on Tuesday we will review the status of the project and, if we are able, continue to ship products to backers. We have stock manufactured; we have softback and hardback rulebooks but are yet to receive personalised rulebooks. For those that have speculated that the demise of our printer may have been untrue, please search online for information about Wheatons Exeter in the UK to see that they did, indeed, close in June.
Those familiar with rules governing the operation of companies will realise that what happens next is now out of our hands and will be managed by others. On a practical point, we may have limited access to shipping services and we only have a very small skeleton staff now. However, you have our commitment as directors that we will do all we can to ship products but we are now directed by others.
Enquiries to the email address given on the announcement (spartangames@mail.com) will be handled as they come in but please bear with us and we manage many things in the coming days.
A further update on the KS shipping
http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update
Spartan Games Closure – additional information
First, the Directors would like to start out with a sincere thank you for all the messages we have received expressing sadness at our closure. It is good to hear that our games brought you enjoyment over the years.
Alongside a considerable number of messages of support we have received hundreds of emails with questions. We have made a start at answering them individually but with no remaining staff, this is proving impossible. We would therefore like to answer the most commonly asked questions here.
1. Will I receive the items I ordered from your online store or pledged for in the Dystopian Wars Expansion Kickstarter project?
Alas, for the most part, the answer is no. If you have received an email notifying you that goods were dispatched then they are on their way. Deliveries can take up to two to three weeks in different parts of the world so they may simply not have reached you yet.
However, if your goods have not left our building yet, unfortunately they can’t be sent. We were committed to shipping everything that was in stock and ready to put skeleton staff in place to do so. Unfortunately our accounts have been frozen so we have no way of paying for shipping charges and our landlords require the return of the premises. We discussed this at length today with our advisors and although we explored lots of options, because we know customers have offered to cover postage and even collect goods, unfortunately we couldn’t find a way to make this work.
2. Will stock that is remaining be available for sale?
There is a possibility that it will, although there is limited final product. There are still details to be worked out but we are building a list of email addresses for those who might be interested in purchasing whatever items of products stock we have available. This will include items built for the Kickstarter project. We wish we could send them to you but, as explained above, this won’t be possible due to circumstances beyond our control. If you want to be added to the mailing list, please send an email, if you have not already done so, to spartangames@mail.com with STOCK in the subject line.
3. Who is handling the closure of the company?
This appointment is in progress but it takes time to follow the required procedures. We will advise who this is once the process is complete.
4. Has there been interest in the purchase of assets such as the product lines?
Yes, considerable interest and we are following up on this with our advisors. Parties wishing to purchase assets should email spartangames@mail.com and their email will be acknowledged and their details passed on.
5. Are you answering emails?
As explained here and in previous statements, staff have been made redundant so we have very limited resources to handle emails. We are working through the hundreds we have received. If the emails are about orders, we will not unfortunately, be able to acknowledge them individually and hope this statement explains the status. If they are about individual stock purchases, we will add email address to the mailing list we are building. If they are about purchase of assets, we will acknowledge and pass on the details. If they are about anything else, we will answer where possible. Other email addresses are no longer being monitored and will cease to exist in the coming days and weeks.
Again we would like to express our regret at the impact this closure has had on staff, customers and other trading partners. We are doing all we can to minimise the impact and to do the best that we can under the circumstances. Please bear with us and thank you again for your support at this difficult time.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I actually really like the Firestorm system... but man.... Spartan games....
Fool me once shame on you... fool me fifteen times... I am a freaking moron.
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Post by: Digclaw
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:I actually really like the Firestorm system... but man.... Spartan games....
Fool me once shame on you... fool me fifteen times... I am a freaking moron.
Unfortunately I'm in the same boat here. Went all in on planetfall. Then Neil saw a squirrel called Halo
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Post by: warboss
 Digclaw wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:I actually really like the Firestorm system... but man.... Spartan games....
Fool me once shame on you... fool me fifteen times... I am a freaking moron.
Unfortunately I'm in the same boat here. Went all in on planetfall. Then Neil saw a squirrel called Halo
Ironically, my enthusiasm waned when Halo Fleet Battles (my first and only Spartan game) was in turn pumped and effectively dumped for the next hotness, Halo Ground Battles. I did get in eyes open to the Spartan edition/game focus churn as they were infamous for it already prior to its release. I just hoped they wouldn't do their usual thing with such a big license... I was wrong obviously. Eh, I wish them well but won't support them personally ever again.
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Post by: schoon
Game - solid.
Miniatures - beautiful.
Yeah, but...
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Post by: Mutter
Go away, Spartan. You horrible mess ...
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Post by: Tamereth
Wow the anti Spartan crew are out in force again on Dakka.
I'm a little disappointed that this has launched before they have finished shipping on the Dystopian wars kickstarter, but the delays there are down to the printer doing all the books going bust.
As I play Halo fleet battles (which definitely hasn't been dumped) I don't really need another spaceship game, but those Pathogen ships would make a lovely stand in for Tyranids in BFG. Also interested what scenery options they come out with, Random space stations have uses in so many games.
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Post by: Elbows
Spartan deserves all the ribbing it gets. I've never seen a company so skittish.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Don't get me wrong Tamerath... I LOVE Firestorm, and I LOVE Planetfall... I think they're awesome games that go ignored by a wider player-base almost exclusively because Spartan is a terrible company. :-p
Their inability to focus on one or two games for more than literally a few months at a time, makes everyone I know anxious about supporting them... which is a shame, because they keep making REALLY good games.
Spartan always leaves me confused. I am dying to throw $400 at this one for the two full, new fleets, new rules, etc... but I know as always I will end up desperately supporting the game locally, getting a couple folks interested, and right on cue Spartan will look like its dropping 100% interest again.
Switching gears, can anyone speak to the place Firestorm and Planetfall were in most recently in terms of balance, etc... Our tiny Planetfall community vanished before we could even get to the first rules refresh (of probably six, knowing Spartan)
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Post by: Overread
Firestorm is gearing up for the 3.0 release and there's a range of chats on their forum about it here
http://community.spartangames.co.uk/index.php?/forum/74-general-discussion/
Planetfall is kind of in the dolldrums at present. I suspect with the Dystopian KS and Firestorm KS it will be a while; however it does seem to be next on their radar for getting some attention.
I do agree that Spartan's major problem is focusing attention on what games they do have instead of chasing new things. Niel was also ill this year (and still is) which seems to have impacted them somewhat; I think being a smaller company a lot goes through him so when he's out of action (or focused on another project) things get held up.
They are most certainly a company that produces great miniatures and decent rules (if in need of some polish here and there);' but you do end up feeling like they'd be stronger with just one or two full supported games; or going Reaper Minis path of just making miniatures with maybe one or two game; or just contracting with rules designers
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Because of how easily Firestorm and Planetfall hook together, even in terms of linking missions, I would say focusing on just those two games for a solid ten years could do wonders for them.
Shame to hear Planetfall is just kind of... there are the moment, as it was super fun.
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Post by: Eumerin
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Because of how easily Firestorm and Planetfall hook together, even in terms of linking missions, I would say focusing on just those two games for a solid ten years could do wonders for them.
At this point, if they drop Dystopian Wars then we'll be hearing people (rightly) complain about it for the next ten years - much as has been the case with the fantasy warships game that they dropped a while back. I'm actually surprised that no one has piped up in this thread to complain about the lack of support for that game. Also, Dystopian Wars has a fairly unique setting, whereas Firestorm has direct competition setting-wise with Dropzone Commander and Dropfleet Commander (and possibly GW, if they ever decide to fully resupport Epic and Battlefleet Gothic again).
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Post by: RiTides
Oh man, I really love some of those Pathogen renders! I've backed to keep an eye on it, but if they offer a variety of sculpts for them as mentioned on the page, I don't think I'll be able to resist putting in for some 
One question on scale, I just am getting my PHR back for Dropfleet, and I know they're way smaller than Firestorm ships in general, but I'm wondering if they could work as opponents for the Pathogen, since Pathogen look so different anyway?
I'm really interested in trying out the Firestorm 3.0 rules, as 2.0 was already very well received I think. What have you guys heard about the 2.0 rules, any thoughts? I like Dropfleet rules too, but definitely up for trying out multiple systems 
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Post by: WolfHound
I loved Planetfall.
Never again.
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Post by: RiTides
That Pathogen model - so sweet!
I've put in a pledge for the 3.0 rules and added on a Pathogen Battle Force. I always thought I'd support the first major company to make space bug ships  and happy to finally have some!
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Post by: Carnikang
 RiTides wrote:That Pathogen model - so sweet!
I've put in a pledge for the 3.0 rules and added on a Pathogen Battle Force. I always thought I'd support the first major company to make space bug ships and happy to finally have some!
They do look interesting..., but for some reason I keep thinking of the BrainBug from Starship Troopers the movie. That sorta puts me off of em.
Much Prefer the old Tyranid BFG look. It is their design though.
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Post by: RiTides
I'm open to a variety of space bug ship looks . GW never followed up with more and I doubt Tyranids are high on their list for any future reboot, unfortunately. I think these look awesome so far  and hopefully they'll show more 3D renders!
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Post by: Overread
Gothic itself is dead anyway so no chance of Tyranid hive ships. Though that said GW has brought back a good few legacy games as of late and I seem to recall some comment that Forgeworld was looking at an Epic remake. So could well be that Gothic makes a return.
That said if it does I really hope they review the ship designs. Tyranid ships, in my view were messy. Not a nice structured design but going too organic to the point where they just looked like a blog of greenstuff stretched out (course that's only from photos I've never seen the actual models).
I'll also be really interested to hear how Pathogen are going to work on the battlefield. At present the pure-strain Pathogen we see appear to be close-combat based. At least they lack conventional gun points on the models; so it will be interesting to read how they are balanced into a game that otherwise is very strong on guns - although factions like the Sorillians and Relthoza do well with close-range guns. Might well be that impure Pathogen have a weaker structure, but the bonus of ranged attacks; or those mouth parts on Pathogen might house spit-attacks or other ranged abilities.
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Post by: Overread
Pathogen Dreadnought!
There's also a selection of PDFs in one of the updates going into the history/background of the two new factions
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Post by: Carnikang
Oh snap. That is snazzy and something I can get behind.
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Post by: Osbad
Nice renders. Check!
Reasonable price. Check!
Spartan Games.... Oh well, it was good while it lasted.
Neil is their greatest asset and greatest liability.
Until he learns what it really means to delegate, I'm not coming near.
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Post by: warboss
I can't help but think from the rate of funding that this is going to be one of those cancelled to rejig kickstarters since it didn't blow through the funding goal. There is a chance as an existing company that Spartan set a realistic goal for making resin themselves right off the bat instead of one artificially low like most companies (albeit new ones jumping into the plastics deep end of the pool)
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Post by: Overread
I think at the moment the stall is mostly because the new renders for the core factions aren't visible yet I think once those are on show the funding should increase as at present its only the two new factions that you can see the renders for.
There's also a chunk waiting on Dystopian Wars KS which seems to be getting into gear and shipping/getting sorted. A bit of poor timing to have that one ending and then start the Firestorm just before the clean up of the Dystopian.
As for the Spartan Games ellement - one bonus is that this is a core game rather than a new one. So in theory its more protected than the others. Uncharted kind of got abandoned but in that case it needed a total overhaul of everything including models. It kind of sunk into the fantasy trap of needing a total reboot and marketing campaign to make it viable.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I keep coming back to this one because I really, really, really enjoy the rules for a few of their games. I think Spartan has capable rules designers (albeit not the best editors/writers as their books invariably need revisions every... single... time), but as others say, always do themselves a disservice by hopping from one game to the other, without ever supporting one long enough to get a community thriving.
Around here Dropfleet Commander landed like a wet fart... so its Firestorm or nothing around here if we want to keep even a modest representation of "in print Fleet Combat" games.
I can say, every time Spartan iterates on one of their rules, they do improve further, and already good games become even better.
There's also good self-contained value here, as an Admiral Pledge comes with a surprisingly solid in-built value even without stretch-goals.
I guess to piggy-back on my earlier comment, but fool me fifteen times, shame on me... because i'm totally going to end up backing this one.
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Post by: Killionaire
Spartan launching another ill-advised game with poor rules design, that directly competes with 4 of it's own games? It must be a day that ends in Y.
Yet again, they simply don't have a goddamn clue.
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Post by: Overread
Except this isn't - this is an expansion of two new factions and their 3.0 rules set for their existing game Firestorm Armada. If anything its a good show as its an existing one of their games getting attention
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Post by: Vertrucio
A better show if it wasn't kickstarter. But then again that Halo license is probably still costing them money.
Spartan has a clue, make no mistake. They know people will buy their miniatures regardless of how they're treated.
But that doesn't mean it's a good thing for their community and finding games outside the bubbles of play there are now. The game can't grow without the kind of support people are asking for.
I guess that's why they have to rely on kickstarter, it's not just a publicity stunt, it's also because retail establishments online and off are done pushing Spartan Games.
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Post by: RiTides
I don't think that's a fair assessment - many established companies are using Kickstarter (look at Dropfleet, which has been mentioned here, and which I also backed).
And as already noted, this is a flagship product for them, and the fact that they're on the third edition now shows that they don't neglect it for long, even if they get a little "distracted" at times  (I'm looking at you Halo!).
So yeah... some fair criticism, but others are kind of knee jerk reactions, imo - this should be a solid ruleset with some great models, and while it's not going to be extremely widespread, I don't know of any game that is outside of the top 4-5 wargames on the market (the rest are all in pockets).
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
As critical as I am of Spartan (mostly because I REALLY liked Planet Fall and it deserved better treatment than it got thanks to the pair of Halo pump-and-dump games), I would be wary of calling their games bad.
At their worst they are solid rulesets marred by unclear writing (which, to their credit, is ultimately always fixed, usually released for free, etc...)
I don't know what Armada played like in the later days of 2.0, but I quite liked it early on.
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Post by: Overread
I think Spartan's problems were jumping from small to big fry suddenly with Dystopian Wars; I think they had to learn how to operate with a bigger market and bigger customer base and I think they had a lot of lessons to learn in that. I also think that delegation has been a problem which has hit them hard with Neil being ill this last year.
They lost traction, but at the end of the day they are not malicious about it. They also produce good model with good models at a good price. If the can sort out their end the market is more than ready, willing and eager for them in the niche they've carved out. I think so long as GW doesn't do another Battlefleet or Epic in the next few years Spartan could well corner that market very well. I'd love them to do that in a serious way!
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Post by: Sarouan
 Overread wrote:
I think that delegation has been a problem which has hit them hard with Neil being ill this last year.
That, and the fact they rely a lot on voluntary work (aka not paid). When you're not paying someone with a salary for all their extra work, well...passion only pushes you that far on long term.
We have the justification of them being a "small company" for quite a few years now. It doesn't excuse anything, actually - it only explains. They try to correct their bad reputation (especially about their communication), but it will be a long and hard process.
They're now stuck since a few days, and I think it's normal because they don't understand they have to show more and faster than that. They have to play cards on the table, otherwise the other people interested but knowing the past of Spartan Games will just hold their money - rightfully, honestly. There is a potential of backers still to be found, but so far, they got the ones who will blindly support them no matter what. Now they need the others, otherwise I'm not sure the project will be funded, simple as that.
So far, we have Neil telling stuff. It's fine, but the guy is known to promise a lot of stuff that never happened. I think people expect actual acts - pictures of the new miniatures, and not just the cover of the boxes and/or renders (a render is good, but Spartan Games showed renders before that never made it into miniatures), more stuff of the real content of the books, not just the covers, and so on.
They make great miniatures, that's good. But there is also the Dystopian War kickstarter, that still isn't fully dealt with and...well...it's Spartan Games. Making promises and telling dates, they can do - but it's the question of if they will actually manage to make it on time (or sometimes,make it at all) that is the important one. So far...we're still not sure of the answer.
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Post by: Overread
In brighter news - 6 new 3D renders of the rest of the core boxed set from the Pathogen and Saurions
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/921886974/firestorm-galaxy-expansion/posts/1965434
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Post by: RiTides
Very nice!! The only one I'm not a huge fan of on the Pathogen is the Frigate, it just seems to be lacking the detail of the others.
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Post by: Sarouan
The more I look at the Pathogen ships, the more they look like mere "space monsters" to me. I really don't get that "cyborg amalgam" they are supposed to be.
They're still nice, though. Details are enough for their size, mostly, especially for what is a glorified " space jellyfish with teeth".
I expected frankly more for an update. I guess they need more time to get the other stuff ready.
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Post by: warboss
 Sarouan wrote:The more I look at the Pathogen ships, the more they look like mere "space monsters" to me. I really don't get that "cyborg amalgam" they are supposed to be.
They're still nice, though. Details are enough for their size, mostly, especially for what is a glorified " space jellyfish with teeth".
I expected frankly more for an update. I guess they need more time to get the other stuff ready.
I assumed they were just big pregnant organic space monsters ala nids from a casual quick stroll down glance (and not reading any actual accompanying text) through the kickstarter and posts here.
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Post by: Overread
Pathogen are basically super-cyborgs. I think the best way to think of them is Tetsuo's final transformation in Akira. An organic like blend of machine and organics. Or like the Beast from Homeworld Cataclysm
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Post by: warboss
Yeah, other than the Doc Ock tentacles now taking a closer look, I don't really get that vibe from a first impression. YMMV.
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Post by: Overread
The infected ships should give a greater feeling of the blending of organic and machine so together should carry the effect over well. That said it would be nice if they could add some finer mechanical details to the existing ship design to give them a little bit more of a hint at their techo-organic aspects.
That said a good paintjob could also carry the effect well (though likely be more challenging for painters) Automatically Appended Next Post: Two new Terran ships and a new Aquian!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/921886974/firestorm-galaxy-expansion/posts/1965726
Terran Battle Carrier!
 Automatically Appended Next Post: And speak of the blending here's one of the infected Pathogen ships!
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Post by: Sarouan
Now with that Dindrenzi ship, we get the "nanovirus melting metal and organic matters together". Real nice.
Hmmm, the Terran ships really follow the last design, more "Hawker Industries' new innovations". The Battle Carrier is especially interesting, with the special way the engine is designed. The back wings look a bit strange, but I think it would be better with the 360 picture.
There is also the Light Destroyer, simple but effective
The Aquan ship is also very in the lines of the latest ships as well.
I have no doubt the resin models will be showing a lot of details. They know their stuff with that material.
They also release the new timeline for the Firestorm Universe. It's...kinda interesting. Some things definitely changed.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/921886974/firestorm-galaxy-expansion/posts/1965830
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Post by: schoon
The miniatures are lovely...
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Post by: vonjankmon
I so wish Spartan would properly support their games. I god damn love their miniatures but finding a game to play is next to impossible.
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Post by: Overread
Hopefully this is a start of a big revitalising! I think it was supposed to start last year with Dystopian, but Neil falling ill I think scuppered it. They seem to be coping better now and hopfully this kickstarts (excuse the pun) the popularity of Firstorm Armada again
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Post by: Sarouan
Two more Light Destroyers are revealed, the Sorylian and the Dindrenzi ones :
They're nice, but I really wonder if this is a good idea for the balance of the game. You can see they are very similar to previous Destroyers miniatures, and you can only guess if their firepower won't be too much for Tier 3 space ships (meaning it will be an auto-include and thus the others will simply be left behind).
Kickstarter seems to be slowly reaching its peak. I think they can reach the 50000 minimum, but I don't believe it will be much higher. It's nearly a certainty they won't reach their Dystopian War's one.
There is an interest, but people are careful. They see the Dystopian War Kickstarter is still not fully finished (and that they don't react on their commentaries anymore), and this one of Firestorm Armada feels a bit like a cash grab. They made a clumsy move, here, and I don't think it is in their favor for believing in a "big revitalising new beginning".
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Post by: Overread
The Dystopian, from what I can see, is shipping now and good few on the forums are reporting that they are getting their stuff from it. I think if the Armada had held off for another two weeks it would have done it a world of good in light of Dystopian stuff shipping.
That said don't forget these destroyers are small light ships rather than the mid-range destroyers. So a compliment or a cheaper lighter option. How they fit in should be clearer in the 3.0 rules as they come out. So in theory they should fit in really well to the new rules system.
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Post by: Overread
They've jiggled some of the stretch goals around; more rewards; more unlocks including some pirate ships now sitting ready to unlock. There's also a preview of the Directorate Destroyer up now!
Automatically Appended Next Post: 
New bonus ship for backers of Bridge Officer - free addition when the game funds at £50K. In addition its a KS exclusive and a marauder class ship so can ally with any faction. It's also a special character warship which isn't something we've seen before in Firestorm!
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Post by: RiTides
I'm loving most of these renders! Very close to funding now
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Post by: Overread
Yeah and the great thing is that Spartan really know how to work well with Resin, so the renders will be very very close to the actual models!
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Post by: Sarouan
Sure, the models will be close to the renders and those are nice, but as long as you don't see the actual model, you're not sure that's what will be coming out in the end. Renders can be modified or just throwed to the trash can, and Spartan Games has already done that in the past. Also, last time I remember, they're trying to sell a game with a universe as well. We still have nothing new in the updates about that. Remember, they're talking about a new version of the rules with a (finally) updated background since the old books and the promises about giving a free PDF about this (hint; it never came).
16 days from the end of the kickstarter, and they still aren't funded. That's actually a problem, that means they still have trouble to convince people about the project.
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Post by: schoon
That new pirate ship is dead sexy. Pretty good deal, too. Included if you buy a copy of the new rulebook.
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Post by: Overread
Sorylian Heavy Carrier!
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Post by: Shrapnelsmile
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:I actually really like the Firestorm system... but man.... Spartan games....
Fool me once shame on you... fool me fifteen times... I am a freaking moron.
Precisely. The most redeeming aspect of this thread is I'm not the only fool out of money.
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Post by: JBSchroeds
I was thinking of doing this for the book and maybe one or two of the faction expansions (got the Dindrenzi/Terran starter a while back after it went OOP), but after looking over the shipping costs I've gotta say: nope. The shipping for just the book is ~$9USD, and for the starter set it's a whopping $40USD. The starter set pledge is $85USD so a total of $125. To put that in context, you can get the current starter from a US retailer, shipped, for $110-130. So it seems to me that it'll be a better deal for a US customer to just wait for general release (assuming none of the extras are must-haves).
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Post by: warboss
 Shrapnelsmile wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:I actually really like the Firestorm system... but man.... Spartan games....
Fool me once shame on you... fool me fifteen times... I am a freaking moron.
Precisely. The most redeeming aspect of this thread is I'm not the only fool out of money.
You need to read his post a few days later...
77922
Post by: Overread
Sadly it appears not only is the KS over but Spartan games is closing doors as well :(
http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games
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Post by: Nick Ellingworth
It's a real shame that they've gone bust but I can't say I'm surprised. Their models were excellent and rules whilst not perfect a lot of fun to play however the on going support of their games disappeared as soon as they released a new game and that was very off putting for a lot of potential customers (and possible repeat customers like myself). I do hope that someone who is willing to spend the time and resources needed to provide support does acquire the rights to at least Firestorm Armada and Dystopian Wars as I think the gaming scene would be a lot poorer without them. I also hope that all their employees find their feet quickly.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I sincerely hope the games get sold to other studios. I have no doubt someone building on the backs of one or two of these pretty excellent games, could do wonders for them.
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Post by: infinite_array
Totally not surprised. Spartan Game's inability to stick with a setting and ruleset meant this was inevitable as they constantly spent money to chase something new and shiny.
Which is a shame. I think a Spartan Games that had stuck with Uncharted Seas and given it the full Dystopian Wars treatment (without the constant rules cycling) could still be going strong, since it's not an overcrowded market. Or even a Spartan Games with the full Dystopian Wars range and no rules churn could be a strong competitor in the market, since it's not an area that anyone else really covers.
I guess now's the time to hit the clearance bins and find some alternate rulesets to use.
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Post by: RiTides
Wow, that's pretty shocking - could someone copy and paste their website announcement here, as their webpage isn't loading for me?
I had backed this heavily, and it's kind of scary that they were on the verge of closing but raising that amount of funds at the same time... but again maybe there are more details in the website announcement that I can't see right now.
Is there any discussion about selling the line, as it seems like it would have value?
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Post by: xowainx
The following statement is issued today, Friday 25th August 2017.
Following a prolonged period of challenging trading and despite the directors’ best efforts to manage through, Rebel Publishing Ltd was unable to continue to trade and the directors have taken the difficult decision to cease. All members of staff were made redundant.
The company, which traded as Spartan Games, is a Somerset, UK based provider of tabletop miniature games which include
Uncharted Seas, a fantasy naval combat game (now retired)
Firestorm Armada, an exciting space combat game featuring highly detailed starship models
Dystopian Legions, a game based in the world of Dystopian Wars using highly detailed 32mm scale figures and vehicles (now retired)
Dystopian Wars– an exciting journey in a Victorian sci-fi world encompassing naval combat, ground warfare and aerial combat.
Spartan Scenics – a range of detailed and easily assembled wargames terrain.
Rebel Publishing Ltd was formed in July 2002 and traded successfully for a number of years. Spartan Games was launched in 2008 and grew rapidly. However, the tabletop games market is challenging and has changed over recent years, and suppliers are predominantly a small number of large well-known names and several small, cottage industry, type businesses.
Initially the business outsourced production but following quality control and production management issues, manufacturing was moved in house between 2009 and 2011. Over this time and since, significant investment was made into machinery and infrastructure. The business also expanded to provide models for a well known video game, moving this into the tabletop games arena. However, significant new development costs, timing issues and the deflection of management time from the core games brands resulted in a significant trading loss for 2015/6. The business was able to continue to trade by raising additional finance and refocusing on core brands, and direct / online trading improved significantly. Results for 2016/17 were significantly improved.
However, despite this it continued to encounter challenging trading conditions and it became clear this month that the company could not continue to service its liabilities, particularly given the burden imposed by the amounts owing to finance companies.
The company was in the process of running a Kickstarter project to raise funds for expansion of one of its successful product lines. This was well supported and positive feedback on the new products was given showing the popularity of the product line and ongoing demand. However, this does not, unfortunately, provide the full range of success and resources needed to sustain the business.
In addition to challenging trading issues, one of the directors has suffered from a long period of poor health which became significantly more serious earlier this year and although now back in the business, requires ongoing treatment. That has inevitably taken a toll on the amount of time available to the business so, along with other challenges, has significantly contributed to this difficult decision.
The directors are extremely saddened by this decision and particularly regret any losses incurred by employees, customers, suppliers or other trading partners. The directors fully committed their time, energy and personal resources to effect a turnaround. Employees will receive redundancy payments through state funds and although efforts have been made to fulfil customer orders, it is hoped that anyone who does not receive their goods will be able to redeem their payments through their credit card or PayPal.
If customers have made a deposit or paid for goods or services by credit or debit card and the goods or services are not going to be received by the due date, they may be able to get their money back by claiming a refund from their card issuer. They should contact their card issuer as soon as possible. Further information including time limits that apply is available from the UK Cards Association: Credit and debit cards: A consumer guide. Similar schemes exist in other countries.
Throughout the years that Spartan Games has traded, it has prided itself on the highest level of product quality and customer satisfaction. This has been delivered consistently and is evidenced though annual customer research that the company has undertaken.
We would encourage anybody who may be interested in acquiring either stock, assets or the business to make contact as soon as possible. Spartan Games and its product lines have a strong reputation in its markets together with an asset base which may be of interest to a number of parties, and a variety of machinery in addition to Intellectual Property.
All enquiries about this matter should be sent to spartangames@mail.com.
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Post by: Skinnereal
Thanks for the update. Their site is getting hammered.
The latest kickstarter is cancelled. If customers have made a deposit or paid for goods or services by credit or debit card and the goods or services are not going to be received by the due date, they may be able to get their money back by claiming a refund from their card issuer. They should contact their card issuer as soon as possible. Further information including time limits that apply is available from the UK Cards Association: Credit and debit cards: A consumer guide. Similar schemes exist in other countries.
It looks a bit final.
9594
Post by: RiTides
xowainx wrote:The following statement is issued today, Friday 25th August 2017.
Following a prolonged period of challenging trading and despite the directors’ best efforts to manage through, Rebel Publishing Ltd was unable to continue to trade and the directors have taken the difficult decision to cease. All members of staff were made redundant.
The company, which traded as Spartan Games, is a Somerset, UK based provider of tabletop miniature games which include
Uncharted Seas, a fantasy naval combat game (now retired)
Firestorm Armada, an exciting space combat game featuring highly detailed starship models
Dystopian Legions, a game based in the world of Dystopian Wars using highly detailed 32mm scale figures and vehicles (now retired)
Dystopian Wars– an exciting journey in a Victorian sci-fi world encompassing naval combat, ground warfare and aerial combat.
Spartan Scenics – a range of detailed and easily assembled wargames terrain.
Rebel Publishing Ltd was formed in July 2002 and traded successfully for a number of years. Spartan Games was launched in 2008 and grew rapidly. However, the tabletop games market is challenging and has changed over recent years, and suppliers are predominantly a small number of large well-known names and several small, cottage industry, type businesses.
Initially the business outsourced production but following quality control and production management issues, manufacturing was moved in house between 2009 and 2011. Over this time and since, significant investment was made into machinery and infrastructure. The business also expanded to provide models for a well known video game, moving this into the tabletop games arena. However, significant new development costs, timing issues and the deflection of management time from the core games brands resulted in a significant trading loss for 2015/6. The business was able to continue to trade by raising additional finance and refocusing on core brands, and direct / online trading improved significantly. Results for 2016/17 were significantly improved.
However, despite this it continued to encounter challenging trading conditions and it became clear this month that the company could not continue to service its liabilities, particularly given the burden imposed by the amounts owing to finance companies.
The company was in the process of running a Kickstarter project to raise funds for expansion of one of its successful product lines. This was well supported and positive feedback on the new products was given showing the popularity of the product line and ongoing demand. However, this does not, unfortunately, provide the full range of success and resources needed to sustain the business.
In addition to challenging trading issues, one of the directors has suffered from a long period of poor health which became significantly more serious earlier this year and although now back in the business, requires ongoing treatment. That has inevitably taken a toll on the amount of time available to the business so, along with other challenges, has significantly contributed to this difficult decision.
The directors are extremely saddened by this decision and particularly regret any losses incurred by employees, customers, suppliers or other trading partners. The directors fully committed their time, energy and personal resources to effect a turnaround. Employees will receive redundancy payments through state funds and although efforts have been made to fulfil customer orders, it is hoped that anyone who does not receive their goods will be able to redeem their payments through their credit card or PayPal.
If customers have made a deposit or paid for goods or services by credit or debit card and the goods or services are not going to be received by the due date, they may be able to get their money back by claiming a refund from their card issuer. They should contact their card issuer as soon as possible. Further information including time limits that apply is available from the UK Cards Association: Credit and debit cards: A consumer guide. Similar schemes exist in other countries.
Throughout the years that Spartan Games has traded, it has prided itself on the highest level of product quality and customer satisfaction. This has been delivered consistently and is evidenced though annual customer research that the company has undertaken.
We would encourage anybody who may be interested in acquiring either stock, assets or the business to make contact as soon as possible. Spartan Games and its product lines have a strong reputation in its markets together with an asset base which may be of interest to a number of parties, and a variety of machinery in addition to Intellectual Property.
All enquiries about this matter should be sent to spartangames@mail.com
Thanks for copying that, xowainx. Huge bummer here  but someone should definitely purchase the line... I would love to see it continue, and maybe get the focus it has needed.
From their announcement, they also seem to indicate that launching the Halo products caused an irrecoverable loss of sales in their other lines... in the end it seems like that is what really sunk the company.
105312
Post by: nicromancer
Very sad to hear but sadly not a surpride, Their attitude towards their existing games and player base has been shody at best and kind of a kick in the nards at worst.
77922
Post by: Overread
I'd really hope someone could step in to buy them - sadly I can't think of anyone big enough in the UK who'd really want to step in to buy. That and the sudden closure right now suggests that there isn't a huge amount of time to really sort out a buyout before staff are lost/assets are sold on.
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Post by: Soulless
I have no info and know very little about Spartan Games/Rebel Publishings history and what issues they might have had.
Ive heard a lot of negativity about them and their business, but also lots of praise for their gamesystems.
Which is why I was kind of mesmerised by Dystopian Wars and jumped on their kickstarter in march really looking forward to diving into the game this winter.
Sadly i wont get any of it and probably wont even get my money back but at least ill try. Really does seem like they have no clue in business and the fact that they cancelled one kickstarter due to community anger last winter, and now fired another one up just prior to closing the company altogether really tells the tale.
Shame, interesting games and systems ruined by what seem to be incompetence.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
Wow, the website is not loading. Aren't they the ones that were doing Halo game?
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Post by: Overread
Might be that they were holding debtors back with the KS funding and then debts were called in when the KS didn't raise enough - it could also be that Neil's medical condition has turned worse once more or that continued stress of running the company was taking its toll on his recovery - might well be that throwing the towel in has as much to do with finance as it does his health - esp if the company was down on staff.
105312
Post by: nicromancer
Maybe warlord could buy some of their IP/Moulds? they've been buying up smaller ranges for a while so it wouldn't be too crazy to imagine, Plus they really want a nice big third party IP to give them that LoTR style boost that GW got and a well supported Halo game could do just that.
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Post by: Alpharius
Was this KS a 'last ditch' effort to save them?
And was it not funding high/fast enough?
This is a bit of a shock...
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Post by: GenRifDrake
Most I can say about Spartan Games is they put out some very cool models, the rules were VERY hit and miss, I loved DWars and FSA v2.0 was alright, but rest were very badly done imo.. I quickly lost enthusiasm for the Planetfall ruleset, just it had gorgeous models. x_x
I have been concerned with how that business has been run for past year really as it's always been pretty obvious SG could barely support DWars and FSA as it is, taking up Halo seemed way too much especially going swiftly into bringing two game systems for it... It's just felt like a long time coming.. was expecting them to maybe survive for another year off the back of kickstarters but seems the end is finally here.
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Post by: Necros
Sad to hear another company biting the dust. Hopefully some other companies out there can acquire licenses and keep the games alive
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Post by: RoninXiC
No surprise... loved Firestorm Armada.
They had a very nice style on their miniatures.
Do one thing good and not 10 mediocre... Spartan always forgot the stuff they did half a year ago.
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Post by: Pete Melvin
Again no real surprise from me either. For such an unfocused scattergun company I'm more surprised it didn't happen a couple of years ago.
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Post by: Dark Severance
That is too bad to hear about the company closing down. Firestorm is definitely a license, or at least the ship designs, something I wouldn't mind acquiring. Unfortunately with them in the UK I don't have any inroads or contact with that particular publisher.
I have seen in situations like this, depending on the company structure, where they initially closed due to a bankruptcy or something similar... then reformed as a new company under new management.
105312
Post by: nicromancer
 Dark Severance wrote:That is too bad to hear about the company closing down. Firestorm is definitely a license, or at least the ship designs, something I wouldn't mind acquiring. Unfortunately with them in the UK I don't have any inroads or contact with that particular publisher.
I have seen in situations like this, depending on the company structure, where they initially closed due to a bankruptcy or something similar... then reformed as a new company under new management.
They have a contact address in the statement for anyone looking to acquire assets.
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Post by: Azreal13
Overread wrote:Might be that they were holding debtors back with the KS funding and then debts were called in when the KS didn't raise enough - it could also be that Neil's medical condition has turned worse once more or that continued stress of running the company was taking its toll on his recovery - might well be that throwing the towel in has as much to do with finance as it does his health - esp if the company was down on staff.
I can tell you from personal experience that the two are inextricably linked. If your health is failing, you are unable to invest the energy into the business it demands (which is huge, even for a relatively small scale operation) and as a consequence the business starts to underperform, and the stress of a struggling business is hugely impactful on your health, forming a vicious circle. Or the reverse, of course.
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Post by: Tamereth
Well **** I guess I'm never getting any of that dystopian wars Kickstarter stuff. Hurts extra bad as some people in the local club have already received theirs.
This seems really sudden, I would of expected them to at least have some big sale to try to raise some funds if things were this bad.
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Post by: nicromancer
 Tamereth wrote:Well **** I guess I'm never getting any of that dystopian wars Kickstarter stuff. Hurts extra bad as some people in the local club have already received theirs.
This seems really sudden, I would of expected them to at least have some big sale to try to raise some funds if things were this bad.
I think if you're at the point where you thinking you might be done, you're basically done.
They had a kickstarter running that was probably their last ditch attempt to drum up business without giving away how bad things had gotten.
Plus a huge sale of all their stock might still happen, But i doubt it would have saved them when you consider paying how little they'd be making from what they have in stock right now.
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Post by: warboss
Wow.. so they were running a kickstarter while apparently on the verge of closing down? And they decided to leave out that long standing knife's edge financial situation out of their "risks" section of the crowdfunding? I suppose it could have been worse in that they could have tried waiting till a few weeks after the KS ended and the funds transferred to let folks know. Either way, it's poor form and against the spirit and the letter of the kickstarter rules and, if it had happened, backers would have no realistic recourse in most cases.
I don't rejoice in this as fellow gamers passionate about the industry will likely be losing their jobs and some their careers in gaming never to return.. but as posted above by many others I can't say I'm surprised. They're indirectly blaming Halo it seems in the closing statement but the halo games got as much focused attention (6 months) before chasing the next squirrel as their own core brands typically got and the game community suffered because of it. Halo wasn't perfect ruleswise and admittedly didn't land initially with much success (much to my surprise) even amongs Halo fans in my area but the rehashing of the releases with little to no followup new content certainly didn't help either. Then factor in Halo's own missteps over the last two games as well as the general decline overall of the xbox brand this generation and the expected new fans to the IP didn't materialize in the numbers they might have expected.
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Post by: nicromancer
 warboss wrote: They're indirectly blaming Halo it seems in the closing statement but the game about as much focused attention to each of their halo games (6 months) before chasing the next squirrel as they typically did their own core brands and the game community suffered because of it. Halo wasn't perfect ruleswise and admittedly didn't land initially with much success (much to my surprise) even amongs Halo fans in my area but the rehashing of the releases with little to no followup new content certainly didn't help either. Then factor in Halo's own missteps over the last two games as well as the general decline overall of the xbox brand this generation and the expected new fans to the IP didn't materialize in the numbers they might have expected.
Halo could have been a license to rpint money if they just made it 40k heroic scale.
At the very least they'd have a steady trickle of sales from people using their vehicles and spartan figures in other games.
But 15mm massed infantry sci fi? That's suicide.
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Post by: Riquende
Spartan have created an interesting chain of complainants... for everybody blaming Dystopian/Firestorm/Halo x for diverting attention from their own favourite game, someone out there is blaming that for lack of interest in theirs. I say this as an Uncharted Seas player from back in the day.
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Post by: vonjankmon
It's unfortunate but like everyone said not surprising. This is a problem with small businesses, which despite it's apparent size Spartan still was.
The last minute attemp to save the company through KS is kind of an unfortunate thing though and will likely stain any attempt by the owner to move into the gaming space agian in the future.
Spartan just needed to pick a game and stick to it as their primary source of income. Going years between significant releases for the different systems makes it very difficult to get any one to catch on, when by the time you did Spartan had moved on.
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Post by: warboss
 nicromancer wrote:Halo could have been a license to rpint money if they just made it 40k heroic scale. At the very least they'd have a steady trickle of sales from people using their vehicles and spartan figures in other games. But 15mm massed infantry sci fi? That's suicide.
I took out my own quote because it was embarrassing how bad my own typos, autocorrects, and half edited sentences were. Yeah, 15mm for halo was a misstep for the brand. In an IP where the core game never goes above 16 v 16 (at least in Halo 1-4 and Reach) and is heavily focused despite being a shooter on individual characters, it would seem like a no brainer that a skirmish game in a scale where those individual character figs would impress (like 30+ mm) would be the best fit to lead off with. I was excited about Halo Fleet Battles and bought into it relatively heavily for me personally ($250+) but I was surprised that they decided to lead with a ship game despite my own unfulfilled long standing interest in the genre. While they've put out some nice products in the past and definitely have some talented and passionate folks working there, I can't help but think that Spartan was largely run over the years like the stories you hear about failing FLGS where the owner stocks and focuses mainly on what interests himself personally to the detriment of what the communtiy may actually desire.
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Post by: Sarouan
What is really disturbing is that it happens so suddenly.
It really meant this Kickstarter was a cash grab. And Spartan Neil did lie again.
No wonder it was hurried. It was their last chance. And they weren't honest at all with it.
I'm quite angry at how it was presented again. Damn.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Overread wrote:I'd really hope someone could step in to buy them - sadly I can't think of anyone big enough in the UK who'd really want to step in to buy. That and the sudden closure right now suggests that there isn't a huge amount of time to really sort out a buyout before staff are lost/assets are sold on.
Too late:
All members of staff were made redundant.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Wow...
I always heard good things about their games and have some Dystopian Wars stuff on my painting table tonight.
Darn.
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Post by: Desubot
Bloody hell this is sudden.
and this sucks. i never got my KS stuff.
@kid the game is fun and the models are REALLY cool still.
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Post by: BrookM
Well, at least they pulled the plug before the KS campaign ended, if they called quits then it would've been messier.
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Post by: Sarouan
 BrookM wrote:Well, at least they pulled the plug before the KS campaign ended, if they called quits then it would've been messier.
Yes. Which is why it really sucks for the previous Kickstarter, the one on Dystopian Wars. There are backers who didn't receive their stuff, and now it is seriously compromised.
All of these promises about expanding the games, gaining new rules...gone. They pulled the plug hard, the official forums are completely offline ( http://community.spartangames.co.uk/). They were down a few days ago, and this was the reason. Now everything that was on them is lost.
At least the download section on their website is still available. Better grab the rules as long as you can.
I'm so angry at them right now, Spartan Neil in particular.
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Post by: Overread
I think the forums closed last night or thereabouts; the store closed at some point today alongside it.
So this is all very sudden.
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Post by: Sarouan
Overread wrote:I think the forums closed last night or thereabouts; the store closed at some point today alongside it.
They did, yes. Which is why it's so infuriating, because everything that was on the forum, including the 3.0 rules glimpses that could be used for the game, is now unavailable. If you didn't make copies before, you're f..ed. They didn't have to shut them down so quickly. They did it because I'm pretty sure they expected the negative backlash on them after the announcement and just didn't want to deal with it.
I'm saving the rules on my computer from the official website. I have no doubt it will also be shutdown sooner or later. By looking at the way how it was done, I wouldn't be surprised if Neil just moves away while burning all the bridges behind.
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Post by: JBSchroeds
Holy cow. That's sudden. And unfortunate. I hope somebody is able to pick up all the Firestorm stuff and focus on that.
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Post by: jhe90
That's sad. I only just got the funds to buy some of the FSA stuff I wanted.
Ebay... Or see if a FLGS has some old stock left behind.
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Post by: Azreal13
I was going to suggest anyone with significant amounts of product outstanding register with the Official Receiver as a creditor of Rebel Publishing Ltd in the hope that they may at least get back some pennies on the pound at some point, but having checked out their most recent submitted P+L there's what appears to be a significant amount owed to a bank from only a few years ago, and their liabilities were running significantly ahead of their assets, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
Pursuing a claim through a card payment protection plan look said to be the best option, if indeed it is an option, which I don't think KS purchases count for.
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Post by: JamesY
Hopefully the individual who is ill will be able to recover without the strain of running the business to deal with. It is a shame as I enjoy dystopian wars, and would have liked to have found more players. Commiserations to those who lost jobs, orders, assets etc.
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Post by: Piston Honda
hope someone picks up firestorm armada and uncharted seas.
They were a small company who were biting off more than they can chew with what seemed like a new game every other year rather than giving games constant support.
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Post by: Overread
Uncharted is the most likely to get lost, it was a good game and started Spartan off, but its hardly got much of a market left and most of the sculpts for it were a lot older. Unless its bought in bulk with others I think Uncharted is sunk fully - the other games though have potential to be picked up. Still lots of good model lines die off or just become models sold in a company collection instead of focused development (eg Reaper has a lot of miniatures that are just one-offs or sold without rules/games).
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Post by: Vertrucio
If I had the cash I would totally pickup the Planetside line and create a new game out of it.
If only Spartan had realized the potential of that.
Instead, as usual, pumped out and forgotten. Another reason why retailers stopped desiring their products.
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Post by: warboss
 Vertrucio wrote:If I had the cash I would totally pickup the Planetside line and create a new game out of it.
If only Spartan had realized the potential of that.
Instead, as usual, pumped out and forgotten. Another reason why retailers stopped desiring their products.
And the perception of them pumping and dumping product lines cyclically (regardless of whether or not its true as argued in this thread) has been around for years and they've seemingly done nothing to combat it. I was warned about it two years ago when I was considering getting into Halo Fleet Battles and I had heard about it for years on dakka prior to that... and yet they continued in my experience to do exactly what was predicted yet again only now with a likely expensive license with yearly fees and additional overhead that they didn't have to deal with on their own internal IPs. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sarouan wrote: Overread wrote:I think the forums closed last night or thereabouts; the store closed at some point today alongside it.
They did, yes. Which is why it's so infuriating, because everything that was on the forum, including the 3.0 rules glimpses that could be used for the game, is now unavailable. If you didn't make copies before, you're f..ed. They didn't have to shut them down so quickly. They did it because I'm pretty sure they expected the negative backlash on them after the announcement and just didn't want to deal with it.
I'm saving the rules on my computer from the official website. I have no doubt it will also be shutdown sooner or later. By looking at the way how it was done, I wouldn't be surprised if Neil just moves away while burning all the bridges behind.
Yeah, that's poor form. I wonder if there was a financial reason for the sudden abrupt nature as I doubt the closure of the forum affected their bottom line that much. Forum software can be free or close to it if and would likely have been paid on a monthly basis or even in advance. It feels like maybe they were either trying to get ahead of the news that was going to leak and/or quickly closed up to avoid some sort of contractual terms that were about to kick in.
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Post by: Kalamadea
DANGIT! I've been putting off buying that 1/100 Pelican since it came out, had it in a cart ready for checkout so many times including just last night. Looks like I dodged a bullet by not buying it last night. Holy heck that seamed sudden.
warboss wrote: nicromancer wrote:Halo could have been a license to rpint money if they just made it 40k heroic scale.
At the very least they'd have a steady trickle of sales from people using their vehicles and spartan figures in other games.
But 15mm massed infantry sci fi? That's suicide.
I took out my own quote because it was embarrassing how bad my own typos, autocorrects, and half edited sentences were. Yeah, 15mm for halo was a misstep for the brand. In an IP where the core game never goes above 16 v 16 (at least in Halo 1-4 and Reach) and is heavily focused despite being a shooter on individual characters, it would seem like a no brainer that a skirmish game in a scale where those individual character figs would impress (like 30+ mm) would be the best fit to lead off with. I was excited about Halo Fleet Battles and bought into it relatively heavily for me personally ($250+) but I was surprised that they decided to lead with a ship game despite my own unfulfilled long standing interest in the genre.
I don't think the problem was 15mm, the problem was how darn EXPENSIVE they were for 15mm and I have no doubt the real reason it sold poorly was the price more than the scale. 15mm scifi is niche, but there's a VERY dedicated following within that niche and a lot of us were thinking Halo: GC would be a great way to bridge more players in to the 15mm scene, but not at those prices!. The main box was decent value, but $35 for a single Scorpion tank at online discount price is ridiculous. I had been REALLY excited for the game to release and intended to buy a full GRUNTZ army worth of figures but even I had balked at the prices and only got the main starter set. Now I'm scrambling to pick up what I can before it's gone.
I'm not sure that 28mm skirmish is the right way to go for Halo, you can't simply recreate the videogame on tabletop. They tried to do exactly that with the godawful Haloclix game and it sold poorly because it just wasn't a god game (great figs tho). Something along the lines of where Star Wars Legion is headed might be good if done right, a couple dozen figs in small units per side and some vehicles. Maybe something like Bolt Action scale, a small platoon and a tank. Wouldn't have happened at Spartan Games prices though, would've been like $70 for a 28mm tank!
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Post by: nicromancer
 Kalamadea wrote:DANGIT! I've been putting off buying that 1/100 Pelican since it came out, had it in a cart ready for checkout so many times including just last night. Looks like I dodged a bullet by not buying it last night. Holy heck that seamed sudden.
warboss wrote: nicromancer wrote:Halo could have been a license to rpint money if they just made it 40k heroic scale.
At the very least they'd have a steady trickle of sales from people using their vehicles and spartan figures in other games.
But 15mm massed infantry sci fi? That's suicide.
I took out my own quote because it was embarrassing how bad my own typos, autocorrects, and half edited sentences were. Yeah, 15mm for halo was a misstep for the brand. In an IP where the core game never goes above 16 v 16 (at least in Halo 1-4 and Reach) and is heavily focused despite being a shooter on individual characters, it would seem like a no brainer that a skirmish game in a scale where those individual character figs would impress (like 30+ mm) would be the best fit to lead off with. I was excited about Halo Fleet Battles and bought into it relatively heavily for me personally ($250+) but I was surprised that they decided to lead with a ship game despite my own unfulfilled long standing interest in the genre.
I don't think the problem was 15mm, the problem was how darn EXPENSIVE they were for 15mm and I have no doubt the real reason it sold poorly was the price more than the scale. 15mm scifi is niche, but there's a VERY dedicated following within that niche and a lot of us were thinking Halo: GC would be a great way to bridge more players in to the 15mm scene, but not at those prices!. The main box was decent value, but $35 for a single Scorpion tank at online discount price is ridiculous. I had been REALLY excited for the game to release and intended to buy a full GRUNTZ army worth of figures but even I had balked at the prices and only got the main starter set. Now I'm scrambling to pick up what I can before it's gone.
I'm not sure that 28mm skirmish is the right way to go for Halo, you can't simply recreate the videogame on tabletop. They tried to do exactly that with the godawful Haloclix game and it sold poorly because it just wasn't a god game (great figs tho). Something along the lines of where Star Wars Legion is headed might be good if done right, a couple dozen figs in small units per side and some vehicles. Maybe something like Bolt Action scale, a small platoon and a tank. Wouldn't have happened at Spartan Games prices though, would've been like $70 for a 28mm tank!
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big 15mm fan, I have most of white dragons 15mm range and a whole heap of lazerburn stuff on my desk.
And i agree, I wanted halo to work out so i could get some nice aleins and infantry, But they charged 28mm prices for 15mm stuff.
If they wanted it to work out as the next big thing in gaming then 28mm should have been the way to go all along purely to get the cross system sales. How many people have made their imperial guard army into ODSTs? Or painted a marine as master chief? Or made warthog conversions ? I think an infinity or deadzone sized game would have worked great for Halo, But when I think of Halo (Admittedly I don't play computer games) I don't think massed rank infantry combat.
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Post by: StygianBeach
This is a huge surprise, I am not sure if I should finally start buying all that Dystopian War's stuff I had my eye on or be grateful that I managed to leave it alone up until now.
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Post by: Mr Morden
Always sad to see a company fail - we have alot of enjoyment back in the day with Uncharted Seas and liked alot fo their Firestorm ships designs bought quite a few.
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Post by: Kalamadea
nicromancer wrote:
If they wanted it to work out as the next big thing in gaming then 28mm should have been the way to go all along purely to get the cross system sales. How many people have made their imperial guard army into ODSTs? Or painted a marine as master chief? Or made warthog conversions ? I think an infinity or deadzone sized game would have worked great for Halo, But when I think of Halo (Admittedly I don't play computer games) I don't think massed rank infantry combat.
I'm not sure you CAN have a successful Halo minis game, because everybody wants something different from the setting. You can't really copy the videogames because the main storyline is just a single god-mode supersoldier rampaging through entire alien fleets. They tried to replicate the multiplayer experience (complete with respawn points and weapon upgrades on the map) with Wizkids Haloclix and that was simply a godawful game (great figs tho). Reach was my personal favorite Halo videogame for gameplay and story. Halo: GC was EXACTLY the game that I wanted to see, but the cost was too crazy even for me, and I'm a huge Halo fanboi. Halo: GC would have (and did) appealed to 15mm crowd until they saw the prices. There was no way the game was going to be successful as it was released.
28/32mm would have appealed to more players, but the cost would have been even more insane, I can only imagine trying to release a game with $70 Scorpions, $40 Warthogs etc. Perhaps the best route would have been for the company to not do a space combat game (already a niche market just as 15mm sci-fi was) and instead do the 28mm game with plastic vehicles. Especially if they could get a wider release of those plastics into actual model shops, they could easily do 1/48 vehicles marketed to both modelers and to wargamers. Their fleet battles game was cool, but just never seemed like there would ever be enough there to justify the cost of plastic production
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Post by: Duskland
Well that was seemingly out of nowhere. I've got way to much of their stuff as is, but now I've got to scrounge around for enough models to finish off my planetfall armies.
I wonder how much of the crash was brought about by poor Halo sales? My Local Game Store has had some starters on the shelves since release and they're still there. Combining nice models with high prices and crappy rules is a recipe for mediocre sales.
Oh well 
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Post by: Desubot
 StygianBeach wrote:This is a huge surprise, I am not sure if I should finally start buying all that Dystopian War's stuff I had my eye on or be grateful that I managed to leave it alone up until now.
Well chances are they will be much cheaper on ebay shortly so you could get quite a steal. the game is still playable and you guys can fix things with house rules always.
though im wondering why they closed without moving all old stock.
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Post by: BrookM
Even if they did 28mm scale Halo game, I've got a feeling they'd make the minis larger than normal, just like with their Dystopian range, making the models harder to use with other ranges.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I'd imagine that if it wasn't a decision made by the owner on health grounds
(the article say's he's better than he was but if there is another batch of treatment coming up he may feel he just can't do that and a failing minis company at the same time)
it was probably either a loan being called in unexpectedly or a major payment coming due (with no wiggle room) and not enough cash to cover it in the business account,
so no time to move the old stock as you legally 'know; your business is done and if you carry on trading you are breaking the law
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Post by: Schmapdi
Oh, that's a bummer - I always had half an eye on getting some of the Dystopian Wars stuff (the small scale one - not the 32 mm one).
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
If there is unsold stock it's pretty likely one of the big online discounters will pick it up so you'll be able to grab what you need
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Post by: Duskland
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:If there is unsold stock it's pretty likely one of the big online discounters will pick it up so you'll be able to grab what you need
Possibly, but beware. In the past I've had resin cast problems with about one box in three for planetfall. Spartan was always really good about fixing issues, but with them out of the picture you're on your own.
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Post by: Kalamadea
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:If there is unsold stock it's pretty likely one of the big online discounters will pick it up so you'll be able to grab what you need
Spartan was notorious for being unable to keep up with demand even at the best of times, I'd recommend grabbing what you can now because I don't see there being much of a vast, warehouse-clearing blowout like you sometimes see. I'm trying my best to grab stuff while being stuck at work and there's already a lot of stuff no longer showing in stock at most of my favorite online shops, and Ebay is getting light too
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Post by: Triple9
 Duskland wrote: OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:If there is unsold stock it's pretty likely one of the big online discounters will pick it up so you'll be able to grab what you need
Possibly, but beware. In the past I've had resin cast problems with about one box in three for planetfall. Spartan was always really good about fixing issues, but with them out of the picture you're on your own.
They definitely had above average mis-packs, but they were always fantastic about making it right.
Miniature Market looks to have everything Spartan on clearance although not really at firesale prices. FRP has had some Planetfall stuff at bargain bin prices for ages and it hasn't moved.
Guess I'll finally be motivated to pick up some of the planetary defense models I've been holding back on.
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Post by: Ir0njack
Kalamadea wrote: OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:If there is unsold stock it's pretty likely one of the big online discounters will pick it up so you'll be able to grab what you need
Spartan was notorious for being unable to keep up with demand even at the best of times, I'd recommend grabbing what you can now because I don't see there being much of a vast, warehouse-clearing blowout like you sometimes see. I'm trying my best to grab stuff while being stuck at work and there's already a lot of stuff no longer showing in stock at most of my favorite online shops, and Ebay is getting light too
Yeah I just grabbed the last boxes of Dystopian Legions Teutonic knights off Ebay. I cant seem find any in NA online stores unfortunatly, so It look like I might have to cast up more for myself if I want to build more conversions besides my one squad of knighworld Ogryn. Always suck to finally find the stuff you're looking for then it goes OOP. First the Bretonnia men at arms and now the Dystopian legions knights :(
Atleast I'll have a Imperial guard army that'll be unique
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Post by: Azreal13
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I'd imagine that if it wasn't a decision made by the owner on health grounds
(the article say's he's better than he was but if there is another batch of treatment coming up he may feel he just can't do that and a failing minis company at the same time)
it was probably either a loan being called in unexpectedly or a major payment coming due (with no wiggle room) and not enough cash to cover it in the business account,
so no time to move the old stock as you legally 'know; your business is done and if you carry on trading you are breaking the law
Possibly (probably) the bank. Happened to a former employer of mine, a long running VAT dispute came to a head and was ruled against the company. The company was in a position to pay, but the bank got twitchy because the money would have used up the company overdraft and insisted the company halve it's overdraft facility at the same time. This meant the company couldn't cover both (approaching £2m in total) and took it from relatively healthy, certainly in no danger of imminent closure, to administration within a week.
Banks don't generally care about the damage they do in the process of protecting themselves, and Spartan owed Natwest. £250k springs to mind, although for the life of me I'm not sure where I got that figure when looking at their paperwork earlier.
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Post by: Vertrucio
I don't think it's any coincidence that These announcements are basically 2 weeks from a fiscal calendar date.
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Post by: Theophony
Vertrucio wrote:I don't think it's any coincidence that These announcements are basically 2 weeks from a fiscal calendar date.
Or right after a huge convention where they could see if they could grab a lot of attention, or in this case see lots more competition and big names and finally say "enough is enough"
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Post by: Ctaylor
What a shame. Hate to see it happen to any company. Hope the ex-employees land on their feet.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
I hope their models designers find other work in the field soon, there was real talent there. Definitely none in marketing or rules design tho.
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Post by: Ronin_eX
The minis were fantastic. The rules were less so.
In the end, if they had focused on even just two of their properties, they probably would have been just fine.
Sadly, I think a lot of their games are probably not going to get snapped up. As much as I loved FSA (2.0 was by far the best system they ever created) it is still basically a generic space game with generic space ships. The space combat market is actually pretty full of stuff and as much as I love FSA's designs, I can't see anyone wanting to wade in to that.
Uncharted Seas died too young and I figure it has been out of the spotlight long enough that if anyone wanted to do Man-O-War with the serial numbers filed of then they'd just do it themselves (again, none of UC's designs were really unique, so no need to buy the property).
Their other side games are all under-developed and half-baked so not many takers on those I suppose.
The Halo license probably cost a mint and I dare say acquiring it may be why they are in such bad financial standing. Because if you get a pricey license and then don't soar with it (like FFG did with Star Wars) then it wont do much for you. Worse, Halo isn't the hot property it used to be. Unlike Star Wars which was set to be on the rise after FFG got it, Halo is sort of on the downslide these days. It was kind of why I was surprised at their announcement of having acquired it. Leaving aside the weird choices they made with the games to initially produce (another space game?) the property likely wasn't worth what they paid to get on board. I just don't think they were big enough to get the profit out of it (just look at how many Star Wars products FFG is producing to make their license worthwhile from their end, it makes Spartan look measured and focused; but FFG is big enough to support all of those games, Spartan was not).
Basically their only really unique and interesting property that I can see getting picked up is Dystopian Wars. That always appeared to be their main money-maker and it always seemed weird that it didn't receive all their support once it looked like they struck gold.
If they had stuck to just FSA and Dystopian Wars then I'm sure they'd be just fine right now. But their constant reaching (especially in the case of Halo) seems like it just killed any and all of their forward momentum.
Here's hoping their properties get picked up by good companies (as a Warzone nut, I'm especially sensitive to the latter bit of that sentiment) and their sculptors find work in the industry (because, again, their models are fething fantastic and those sculptors are some of the best in the industry for the kinds of things they make). But I'm not surprised by their failure, mostly just by the speed at which the folding happened.
I'm also upset we just got a friend in to this as well. Oh well, maybe he can use the opportunity to get some stuff on clearance.
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Post by: RiTides
Maybe a fan movement to use the FSA 2.0 rules with other products? I'm wondering how well it would work with Dropfleet ships...
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Well headed to Miniatures Mart and picked up a Firestorm space station and Dystopian Legions pack with the guy in the steampunk wheelchair. That should hold me.
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Post by: schoon
In hope someone picks up the FSA models and IP and runs with it.
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Post by: MaxT
RiTides wrote:Maybe a fan movement to use the FSA 2.0 rules with other products? I'm wondering how well it would work with Dropfleet ships...
IMO the rules aren't strong enough to ever make that a thing.
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Post by: Overread
Spartans strength was in decently priced high quality resin models. Rules were nice but they clearly needed more work to make them exceptional.
Any company picking up the company assets is going to do it for either the machines or the renderings/castings/moulds. Ergo the physical product side of things. The story/fluff and rules is all really open to being re-written without much if any real loss.
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Post by: Ankhalagon
I love the shipdesigns and the rules of Firestorm Armada, but didn´t start my planned Relthozafleet because lacking of players though.
Its just sad, that Spartan overdid it with too many projects at the same time and their horrible organisation of their projects..... 
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Post by: Tamereth
Spartan have posted an update on the Dystopian Wars Kickstarter, it offer a glimmer of hope for backers
To all backers of this project, we sincerely regret the recent announcement of the closure of our company and those impacted including people waiting for products from this project. We hope you understand that our priority yesterday was our staff and then getting a formal statement out to the market. That was shared, via email, with everyone on this project.
As explained in the statement, there are policies in place with payment providers around the world for goods that are not received. Please explore these as appropriate to your payment method and location.
Monday is a public holiday in the UK but on Tuesday we will review the status of the project and, if we are able, continue to ship products to backers. We have stock manufactured; we have softback and hardback rulebooks but are yet to receive personalised rulebooks. For those that have speculated that the demise of our printer may have been untrue, please search online for information about Wheatons Exeter in the UK to see that they did, indeed, close in June.
Those familiar with rules governing the operation of companies will realise that what happens next is now out of our hands and will be managed by others. On a practical point, we may have limited access to shipping services and we only have a very small skeleton staff now. However, you have our commitment as directors that we will do all we can to ship products but we are now directed by others.
Enquiries to the email address given on the announcement (spartangames@mail.com) will be handled as they come in but please bear with us and we manage many things in the coming days.
I'm sure if the can spend a day or two shipping these to the outstanding backers it will stop any bad blood, and also keep the community alive and make DW a better proposition for anyone looking to take it on.
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Post by: 10penceman
liked spartans dystopian war models hell i own a few fleets
I just wish spartan focused on maybe 2 games but they just couldn't and that's probably where the company just collapsed under its weight.
The models where high detail beautiful things (wish forge world resin was as good) but the rules where not great.
This is a shame that spartan games just couldn't survive but the writing was on the wall amazed they last as long as they did. I had many good nights gaming with dystopian wars so i wish them all the best
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Post by: Overread
I've edited that post into the opening post for this thread - that really does make it sound like an investor/bank pulled the plug on Spartan suddenly or another similar shock event - ergo that they didn't start the Firestorm KS let alone the last week thinking they'd be closing this Friday.
It's a very generous move by them to be trying to still ship items to KS backers; esp since chances are those postage costs are coming out of personal pockets (unless shipping labels were already pre-paid).
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Post by: Hulksmash
I'm sad because the dystopian war stuff was so pretty but the lack of support meant that it disappeared and I was tempted by planet fall but after dystopian wars held off. I second hopefully someone moving forward with those two propertis or at least those concepts with the same sculptors
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
they're going to be dependant on the official receiver (the government appointed bod who will be winding up the company)
as any assets which will include unshipped pledges will belong first and foremost to the secured creditors (probably whoever loaned them the cash)
although it may be there are enough other assets in the business to pay the outstanding debts, fingers crossed this is the case
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Post by: krazynadechukr
I've always wondered when I see new game and/or miniature kickstarters almost every day, if they've been "watering down the well" for the established companies. How much, if any, impact do you think all these various kickstarters had on the downfall of these miniature companies folding?
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Post by: Malika2
Wait, are you asking if Spartan Games' Kickstarters have watered down the well for companies like GW? *confused*
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Post by: krazynadechukr
 Malika2 wrote:Wait, are you asking if Spartan Games' Kickstarters have watered down the well for companies like GW? *confused*
NO, ALL kickstarters. There's about 378 miniature kickstarters, 956 game kickstarters. 299 terrain kickstarters, etc... People are spending money here & there nowadays. Maybe too much competition for the traditional game/miniature company to compete with? Too much overhead? The garage kit fad is back (by way of "kickstarters")?
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Post by: Malika2
Well, everybody is running Kickstarters nowadays in order to finance their projects. Nothing wrong there, back in the day these peeps would have had to get a bank loan to make their designs come to life. The problem I feel is that perhaps the market is a bit saturated. How many games can one play? How many models/armies/etc can one collect?
And the thing is that each and every of those games/settings/etc is trying to be their own independent thing, whilst in reality most of them are either too small or uninspiring to really become their own thing. Firestorm did have some interesting stuff for a while, their miniatures were pretty sweet, but I'm still wondering what it is aesthetically or backgroundwise that really sets them apart. What is it that makes the Firestorm universe so awesome?
In 40k/WFB it took a while to develop, but there was always this aesthetic/background aspect to it which was totally mindblowing, which is why GW became the biggest. One might of course ask, will this last forever, will there one day be another company who'll create a setting which will kick 40k off its top position? Or will the small guys only survive as scavengers? Making bits and proxies for other people's 40k related projects? Sadly enough the demise of Spartan Games has given that camp some ammunition to proclaim that the only way to survive in this market is to rip off GW's designs/ideas/etc since original stuff simply doesn't sell. :(
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Post by: Mr Morden
Malika2 wrote:Well, everybody is running Kickstarters nowadays in order to finance their projects. Nothing wrong there, back in the day these peeps would have had to get a bank loan to make their designs come to life. The problem I feel is that perhaps the market is a bit saturated. How many games can one play? How many models/armies/etc can one collect?
And the thing is that each and every of those games/settings/etc is trying to be their own independent thing, whilst in reality most of them are either too small or uninspiring to really become their own thing. Firestorm did have some interesting stuff for a while, their miniatures were pretty sweet, but I'm still wondering what it is aesthetically or backgroundwise that really sets them apart. What is it that makes the Firestorm universe so awesome?
In 40k/WFB it took a while to develop, but there was always this aesthetic/background aspect to it which was totally mindblowing, which is why GW became the biggest. One might of course ask, will this last forever, will there one day be another company who'll create a setting which will kick 40k off its top position? Or will the small guys only survive as scavengers? Making bits and proxies for other people's 40k related projects? Sadly enough the demise of Spartan Games has given that camp some ammunition to proclaim that the only way to survive in this market is to rip off GW's designs/ideas/etc since original stuff simply doesn't sell. :(
Some really good points here
I have substantial disposable income and so had been backing kickstarters in qutie a big way but recently I haev been looking again and saying - where am I going to store all this stuff and thats with several spare rooms never mind playing it. Consequently I have not plegded to a number even they they looked cool. Plus quite often I get pretty much everything in the KS and so don't need the stuff at retail.
I was hugely impressed with the idea of Uncharted Seas as apart from Man O War which I also have - there was nothing like it - in fact we all played it quite a bit at the club and then the next new thing came along and it faded. It seemed to fade for Spartan as well - although the constant revison of rules did not help.
There do seem to be so very many games out there trying to get our antention and thats not the hard bit - its holding it.
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
I mostly agree, Mallka2.
Re: GW's position and its unassailability, I think it'll probably end up being around the same as Marvel/DC in comics: there'll essentially be a monopoly (well duopoly for the comics analogy) for their major genre- in GW's case, large scale 30-ish mm combat- where others learn there's no reason to compete there as comics companies have basically abandoned the traditional SH genre, and there'll be relatively diverse second and third tiers of companies.
edit: yes, I'm also at the point of collection overload. I used to go all-in on games; now, I'm far more likely to get 2-3 modest forces so there's some decent variety with my friends when we feel like the system. Similarly, there are some really awesome looking games that I don't pick up just because I have enough to play already.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
So Spartan are going full Tony Reidy on this? As if trying to run a kickstarter to cover past debts wasn't enough, they are basically saying "if we owe you anything, have your bank deal with it".
Feth them with a barge pole.
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Post by: griffen127
Black gang. I get you could be upset. However if they shut down it's not really up to them to send out more product. Look at banks that close, circuit city the list goes on. Sometimes people get screwed. It's the risks anyone and everyone takes when ordering anything. It may not be right, it prob makes people crazy. But it's the way it is. All and all. It sucks.
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Post by: Sarus
It was very sad to read about this. I first started collecting some of their models back when they started out after only a few months and loved Uncharted Seas. I stuck with them through all their upheavals and dalliances with other games to see Uncharted Seas get relaunched and collected again only for their support to die away once more killing the game in my area. Although I've picked up a few bits of the others ranges here and there and always liked their models they just never could cut out that impulse to bounce onto the latest new game. But it will be sad to see them go as their models were always very nice and they did have a slightly more active participation in the community which was good. So sad news.
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Post by: Overread
 lord_blackfang wrote:So Spartan are going full Tony Reidy on this? As if trying to run a kickstarter to cover past debts wasn't enough, they are basically saying "if we owe you anything, have your bank deal with it".
Feth them with a barge pole.
Actually by the way their community activity and KS were its highly likely that whilst they had debts as a time bomb over them; they didn't expect to close this past week. They are not a huge company, so if they were going to die off they'd have easily had whistle blowers long before.
They've also issued a statement in their KS for Dystopian Wars that they are going to try and continue to ship as much as they've got made up right now out to backers. With the companies assets frozen this means that either the shipping is pre-paid already or they are paying for that out of their personal pockets (the fact that the KS items are already sold and paid for might be the only reason that they've not been seized and held like the rest of the company assets)
At this point in time the companies money is frozen. It's not that they don't want to issue refunds its likely that they can't. So yes it easier to simply have your bank issue a chargeback; you get your money from your card/paypal and the bank/paypal becomes a single entity owed money along with all the others. To be paid off when the companies assets are sold off.
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Post by: privateer4hire
I just downloaded the rules for Firestorm, Planetfall and Uncharted Seas while they're still available.
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Post by: Formosa
less competition for GW is a bad thing :(
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Post by: Sining
I don't think Spartan games was ever much competition for GW. The games aren't even in the same scale for most of them.
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Post by: LunarSol
GW's resurgence has definitely had an impact from my experience. 40k's model count is just so large that when people return to it, even if they have the money, they simply do not have the hobby time to entertain games with 8ish figures. Kind of a shame really; I've quite enjoyed the shift towards a wide variety small skirmish overall.
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Post by: rtb02
For those of you bemoaning the lack of models coming, spare a thought for those that have lost jobs seemingly overnight...
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Post by: Azazelx
Sining wrote:
I don't think Spartan games was ever much competition for GW. The games aren't even in the same scale for most of them.
It's obviously a collective and generalised competition for GW rather than any one individual company or game (aside from FFG/X-Wing/etc). Like, WarPath and GoA and MEdge are positioned via genre, scale and design as direct alternatives to 40k, but they're not really Competition. Between a resurgent GW and the current state of Kickstarter, it's not surprising to see smaller games and suppliers hurting. I know Andy from Heresy has written about it, and I believe Tre Manor from Red Box Games has said similar things.
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Post by: Overread
Everyone is talking about GW but I think Magic also has something to blame alongside highstreet rental prices. Miniature games are expensive to stock in terms of the amount of space they take up; and the profits from them are slower and less than those of magic and some other lines.
Couple that to the fact that, barring a few, most game stores tend to be on the smaller size, and I think the other thing hurting games is that the highstreet retail shop is something that appearse to be the enemy of most governments/councils today (or at the very least in the UK). That is to say that they are under insane pressures to keep the doors open; as a result al ot of niche lines that once would have shared shelf space now either don't have the space or the profit margins are just not big enough and the rate of sale not high enough for the owner to want to stock them.
Online takes up the slack, but online customers are nearly always only a fraction of real customers or the full potential market. Plus physical goods, like models, nearly always look and sell better in the physical world; esp for enticing in new customers.
So I think this is the other issue for smaller companies; I know Spartan did a huge repackaging at one point to get their games into fewer boxes and away from blisters so that more retailers might stock them. At the extreme end their Planetfall game had in-game detachments sold in boxes; gone were the ideas of buying blisters of units.
I don't think we can ignore the market pressure of space - then again it seems that Spartans problem was not so much getting this space but in getting stock out to the retailers. That said in general terms I think the space and local store issues are a huge problem for miniature games.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Let's not pretend it was something external that has no connection to Spartan's ADHD approach to game publishing and support.
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Post by: Malika2
lord_blackfang wrote:Let's not pretend it was something external that has no connection to Spartan's ADHD approach to game publishing and support.
No one is saying that Spartan was fully blameless in their own demise. However, that doesn't mean the issues that the tabletop wargaming market suffers from have zero influence in the current state of affairs.
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Post by: Overread
I don't think anyone is; but without further to really talk about its kind of shifted into a discussion on the pressures on modern miniature wargames in general. Or at least for those looking to shift from small boutique lines into a serious marketed game.
That said its important to remember that these are pretty much golden times for wargames and miniature makers in general. We've gone from a time where GW was pretty much the only serious market; to where Privateer Press pushed in - to today where we've got multiple game lines going on
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Post by: Tamwulf
Even with Spartan Games closing down, we are in a Renascence of table top gaming that hasn't been seen since the early 80's. Heck, it's even bigger then it ever was back then. Gamers have never had as many choices or great models and rules to simulate battles on land, sea, air, or space. Truely, we are living in the Golden Age of Gaming.
I'm going to miss Dystopian Wars and Firestorm Armada, much like Uncharted Seas, the game that put Spartan Games on the map.
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Post by: Wonderwolf
I wouldn't pin this on GW or any other company.
People in this market (like all markets) will go broke. Before the days of Kickstarter, PP or Wyrd made it while things like Confrontation or Ex Illis folded.
For Spartan in particular, former Spartan employee David Lewis launched his own Hawk Wargames, in direct competition to many Spartan products, and did it better (if anything, Hawk Wargames would be a competitor more directly taking a chunk out of Spartan's potential customer base than GW) and commercially successfully.
Overall, if there're more companies and projects in the TT field than there were 10 or 20 years ago, it means more companies will go broke (in absolute numbers), even if the relative % of companies going out of business remains relatively unchanged.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Indeed. It's normal for small businesses in a crowded field to struggle and fold.
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Post by: Malika2
Whilst there are more companies, and a whole lot more choices out there, I wonder if the amount of clients has increased at those levels as well.
But yeah, then I'm entering a discussion about the tabletop wargaming market in general rather than the demise of Spartan Games specifically.
Maybe something to discuss elsewhere?
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Post by: Overread
Sadly until there's news its not much else to say about Spartan and the way these things tend to go there will likely be A LONG period of silence.
Market I think has expanded, but not at a huge rate. If anything we've seen a few randoms such as the Lord of the Rings game; but otherwise tabletop is still VERY much a pure geeky thing. I think the core problem at present, esp for smaller companies, is advertising. The internet and local shops are ok but they only really reach most existing customers. I think the next big thing miniature wargames need if they want to break out is to have advertising that targets and focuses upon bringing in a lot more casual/regular players/people.
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
Overread, I agree with your suggested problem re: market. I think you're probably right that most gaming companies at this point will be more likely to dig into the existing market than they are to expand it.
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Post by: LunarSol
The hobby aspect will always make it something of a niche market. I'd probably argue the two games that most expanded the market outside of 40k are Heroscape and X-Wing just because of the accessibility factor.
As far as the question of whether Spartan is closing because of market changes; I think people are mostly leaning that way due to the hat trick of Tor and Lamb also closing their doors. If it was Spartan alone I think we'd really be more focused on their problems supporting their games.
Still, the market conversation is way more interesting and fruitful than doing an autopsy.
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Post by: Overread
Lunar - agreed on both counts. Pre-painted tends to get pushback from the community that's established; but there's no denying that assembly and painting is a skill and time curve that's not small. Certainly if you overcome those with affordable pre-painted then you can quickly build a new market of gamers who can be entered into the market. Once in they can then spread out into other franchises as they desire.
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Post by: kestral
What I really want to know is where can I get their stuff cheap? No going out of buisiness sale? I really wanted a dystopian ottoman cruiser!
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Post by: nobody
 kestral wrote:What I really want to know is where can I get their stuff cheap? No going out of buisiness sale? I really wanted a dystopian ottoman cruiser!
Looks like miniature market already put all their stuff on clearance:
https://www.miniaturemarket.com/table-top-miniatures/spartan-games/dystopian-wars.html#/?_=1&filter.category_hierarchy=Table%20Top%20Miniatures%2FSpartan%20Games%2FDystopian%20Wars%2FOther&page=1
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Post by: WestAustralian
I am Saddened but not Surprised.
I hope there will be somewhere online where I will still be able to share the Minis that I Paint.
I have a lot of Painted and Unpainted Spartan stuff. and my FLGS still has some stock.
Is there a section on Dakka or another Forum that will be Spartan Addict Friendly?
WA
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Post by: Pael
MM always has had most of Spartan Games on clearance. Nothing really news worthy.
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Post by: Balance
I'm cautiously optimistic that "parting out" the Spartan IPs may be for the best. For example, I have a bunch of stuff for Dystopian Wars, but was never super crazy about the rulesets(s). I'd certainly be interested if a company bought the IP and wanted to re-start the game with something that can use existing minis (but tempt me to buy more, of course) and sells me a 'product' in the form of a nice-looking book.
One big loss is I have the 2.0 PDFs, which are fine, but they totally abandoned a 'traditional' army book in that the army lists were basically word docs converted to PDFs, without artwork... So I'd have to use an online store or similar to identify which model is which.
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Post by: Sarouan
To be honest, if someone would buy some of the core games from SG, just using the existing models could work for Dystopian Wars and Firestorm Armada. Both of those already have a strong basis of models to be used by gamers, so that they can be satisfied for a long time, and just asking some game support so that the communities can recruit and make the game living in their town.
You could as well use the former rules and just "patch them", rather than taking a whole different direction. Then later, when everything is stabilised, you can think about expanding the games. Basically, it's about counting on the existing fanbase the time to let it flow again, then keep it realistic with what it is (a niche game for a niche market) and most important of all don't try to eat something way bigger for your mouth or trying to hunt multiple rabbits at the same time and ending with none caught in the end.
It happened with Alkemy ( https://alkemy-the-game.com/en/), a french fantasy skirmish game, that was bought by a fanbase when it was first sunk. It sures is small and is really a niche, but by being faithful to what was the core of the game and mainly keeping the former products, they managed to keep the game living with those enjoying to play it.
Something similar may happen for Firestorm Armada or Dystopian Wars. Planetfall...yes, it could as well, but I don't know, I feel like this game is "less strong" as a potential for a recovery. And I would rather advise to focus on one game system at a time, unless you have the team ready for the work to come.
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Post by: Overread
A lot depends on who picks it up. Dystopian Wars could survive if just the renderings are bought up and put into production with rules.
The real clincher is if they can continue to expand the game or not; Planetfall would benefit a lot from that.
Then again Spartan always had a lot of renderings and I'm willing to bet that there's a legion of content unpublished - of course that might or might not be part of the sale deals.
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Post by: Ginsu33
What will happen to the Halo games now?
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Post by: Overread
Dead like the rest of the range that Spartan produces unles someone buys up and puts the products back into production.
Halo is more complex since its a licence so it might be that the licence and all its content reverts to the original licence owners. Regardless the moulds/sculpts/renders are worthless at present unless sold with the licence or if a company buying them can then approach the Halo licence owners for a new production licence.
The only bonus Halo might have is that its attached to an existing firm so they could push that back to the market if they so chose by securing another deal.
That said, honestly, I'd expect Halo and Uncharted seas to be the most likely of all the Spartan games to die fully. Followed by Planetfall and Legions. Dystopian and Firestorm are the most likely to survive if anything survives at all.
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Post by: Ginsu33
That really blows...
People say we're in a golden age of miniature gaming.. perhaps, but people invest in these hobbies and when they shut down, it just trashes the whole thing for collectors/gamers who play with friends. It isn't going to bother the hard-core types who play a bunch of miniature war-games already, but a lot of people only have 1 or even 2 games they stick with, so this really would suck for someone who thought Halo was a good idea.
I almost jumped in with a couple of mates who I played Halo with back in the day, lucky we never got around to it... stuff like this makes me very thankful for Games Workshop, despite the pros and cons, at least you know they will still be around a decade from now.
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Post by: ced1106
Well, aside from GW, I don't play miniature tabletop games that have proprietary components. Song of Blade and Heroes... Frostgrave... Savage Worlds... and plenty of other universal rulesets to choose from, many free or less than $10. FFG's RuneWars and CMON's Song of Ice and Fire were met with questions if they would support their game lines, even before product was released.
Who's up for a game of Mage Knight 1.0?
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Post by: warboss
That sucks to hear about the rules going down along with everything else in the sudden closure. I can't imagine the forum costs weren't prepaid even for a few days to not allow them time to close new comments on the forums but still allow read only access so folks could download scenarios, custom rules, and their own blogs and such. I hadn't thought about that additional complication.
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
Yeah, I totally get not wanting to deal with the forum exploding, but it would have been nice to leave it up as read only, even for only a month or something.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
It's not just whether your product is good, it's also how you run your business.
As others have noted, wargaming is seeing a definite upswing if not outright surge in popularity. That attracts new business to the marketplace, and can encourage others to expand.
But both of those options will quite often involve the borrowing of money to fund - especially if you want to keep as much of the production in-house as you can.
Now if that all works, great. Your business expands, profits rise, and you get rid of the debt. But should something, anything go wrong? You may wind in up in the situation where you can't borrow any more money, or worse, can't service your existing debt.
And that's not just limited to 'sales are 10% down on prediction'. It can also be clients going bust themselves, leaving you with unpaid invoices, and little chance of getting that money. If some sod crashes their car into a power substation, you could be left without the capacity to produce, meaning you miss orders. A cheque could bounce unexpectedly, meaning your suppliers no longer offer you credit. It could be any combination of the above.
You can be a complete fool with no business sense and go under. You can overreach your hand and go under. You can be the greatest business person in the world, and outside influences can still shaft your company out of existence.
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Post by: Smellingsalts
I own a retail store and for me, I think the 3 biggest things that caused Spartan to fold were...1.They stopped selling to distribution. When that happened, we stopped carrying their product. Naturally the store promotes the things we can sell, so other miniatures games took over and Spartan faded into obscurity. 2. They kept writing and rewriting rules instead of taking the time to get it right the first time. 3. They relied too heavily on their exploding d6 gimmick. My group played their fantasy sailing game. I quite when one of my battleships was sunk by a volley of three dice fired from a frigate that my lucky friend kept rolling 6's for. And no, I didn't just rage quit. We had a long discussion about it and most of my group felt that the exploding d6 mechanic made it more of a beer and pretzels game, not one you could take seriously, or at least not one to waste time on.
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Post by: Vertrucio
Smellingsalts wrote:I own a retail store and for me, I think the 3 biggest things that caused Spartan to fold were...1.They stopped selling to distribution. When that happened, we stopped carrying their product. Naturally the store promotes the things we can sell, so other miniatures games took over and Spartan faded into obscurity. 2. They kept writing and rewriting rules instead of taking the time to get it right the first time. 3. They relied too heavily on their exploding d6 gimmick. My group played their fantasy sailing game. I quite when one of my battleships was sunk by a volley of three dice fired from a frigate that my lucky friend kept rolling 6's for. And no, I didn't just rage quit. We had a long discussion about it and most of my group felt that the exploding d6 mechanic made it more of a beer and pretzels game, not one you could take seriously, or at least not one to waste time on.
This. All of this.
Bad rules.
Bad support.
Combined, led to no lasting player support, which meant nothing to fall back on when Halo failed.
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Post by: warboss
Smellingsalts wrote:I own a retail store and for me, I think the 3 biggest things that caused Spartan to fold were...1.They stopped selling to distribution. When that happened, we stopped carrying their product. Naturally the store promotes the things we can sell, so other miniatures games took over and Spartan faded into obscurity. 2. They kept writing and rewriting rules instead of taking the time to get it right the first time. 3. They relied too heavily on their exploding d6 gimmick. My group played their fantasy sailing game. I quite when one of my battleships was sunk by a volley of three dice fired from a frigate that my lucky friend kept rolling 6's for. And no, I didn't just rage quit. We had a long discussion about it and most of my group felt that the exploding d6 mechanic made it more of a beer and pretzels game, not one you could take seriously, or at least not one to waste time on.
I wasn't aware they dropped out of the traditional distribution chain. As for the exploding d6 mechanics, did you get a chance to try the Halo version? If not, in a nutshell they had varying levels of explosion rerolls and you never got more hits than the number of dice you initially rolled.
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Post by: Duskland
I don't think they dropped completely out of traditional distribution networks. I was able to get items through my local game store, but things would take months to come in. The local owner said that restocks at the distributed level were few and far between, but he'd keep trying (and eventually things would come in). It was too bad since their resin minis were some of the best I've seen. The compression molds they started using with distopian wars allowed for some truly impressive models.
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Post by: Smellingsalts
Yep, they did drop out of distribution. Your local game store may have tried going directly to Spartan, which would account for the long wait times and infrequent stocking because he had to have those figures shipped from England. When you consider that while he is trying to get those figures for you, Spartan is competing with his store and selling directly to his customers, it becomes problematic. GW also competes with brick and mortar stores with their online service, but they at least distribute to non-GW stores
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Post by: Iracundus
Smellingsalts wrote:I own a retail store and for me, I think the 3 biggest things that caused Spartan to fold were...1.They stopped selling to distribution. When that happened, we stopped carrying their product. Naturally the store promotes the things we can sell, so other miniatures games took over and Spartan faded into obscurity. 2. They kept writing and rewriting rules instead of taking the time to get it right the first time. 3. They relied too heavily on their exploding d6 gimmick. My group played their fantasy sailing game. I quite when one of my battleships was sunk by a volley of three dice fired from a frigate that my lucky friend kept rolling 6's for. And no, I didn't just rage quit. We had a long discussion about it and most of my group felt that the exploding d6 mechanic made it more of a beer and pretzels game, not one you could take seriously, or at least not one to waste time on.
What's wrong with rare golden BB shots? Sure it sucks when it happens to you, but it's not like this concept is unique to Spartan's games. The FW rules for superheavies and Titans previously had the Chain Reaction result which if you were really lucky could result in a one shot kill too. Battletech had the gauss rifle round to the head one shot decapitation, and so on for other game systems.
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Post by: Balance
As to distribution: I thought they were trying to move so retailers would have a small, possibly rotating, line of stuff for whatever their newest games are available. So if Dystopian Wars was being featured, they'd have a starter box and a small selection of fleet boxes for each force available. I know I got hit because the individual ships moved to only being available from their store if they were available at all.
Speaking of rules, I did feel like they were just clunky and didn't flow. Annoyingly, in some ways they got worse as 1.0 became 2.0, especially as they stopped shipping cards. There were a lot of 'feel' issues that made the balance weird.
If I had bought the IP (which i don't think is in my budget...) I think I'd want the new rules to basically throw out the old and forge new ground, albeit using the old background and models.
Give each nation a few clear niches or specialties, and don't take away from those with follow-ups. For example, my DW forces are mostly the Brits, so the three strengths in canon are:
1. Submarines... Which several others got, often better. And the sub rules weren't that great anyway as they tended to be swapping offensive ability for a deep-dive of negligible value.
2. Torpedos: Mostly work, albeit they're not really 'special' and the torpedo seemed to be one of the weakest weapons in general (also useless for mixed-theater combats).
3. Bomber-type aircraft: Reasonably good, but ...
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Post by: Sarouan
The rules weren't that bad, actually. Firestorm Armada 2.0 had a good basis and well balanced army lists for most of the ships.
To me, the main reasons are those :
1. Focusing everything on their own online store, competing with retailers with their bundles and forcing them to drop their products
2. Inability to stick to a schedule and promises keeping to be broken all the time
3. Horrible communication
4. Producing games that ARE COMPETING DIRECTLY WITH THEIR OWN GAMES (Halo Fleet Battle vs Firestorm Armada, Halo Ground Command vs Firestorm Planetfall)
5. Shifting the designing teams to one game to another, meaning the others games were simply left behind for an unbelievable long time
6. Not paying their own teams of game designers...basing the rules and background on voluntary work. That's sheer stupidity.
7. Spartan Neil at the head. Unable to delegate, wanting to keep all decisions to himself and making terrible decisions for the future of his business. He made it, he sunk it. All the fault is his own.
Well, the result is here, anyway.
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Post by: winnertakesall
Kickstarter update:
http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update
Seems a lot like they've got the stuff produced, and it's sitting in a warehouse. So what happens to it?
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Post by: Tamereth
Well that's a nut shot.
Basically everything I pledged for in the kickstarter was produced, it's sat in Spartan warehouse, but it's going to get sold to somebody else at some point.
This is why the general population has gone off of capitalism.
Dispite being £162 out of pocket, if some other company buys up the rights and put's the models back for sale I know I'd still end up buying some of the new stuff. I really want one of those giant iceberg carriers.
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Post by: yakface
Tamereth wrote:Well that's a nut shot.
Basically everything I pledged for in the kickstarter was produced, it's sat in Spartan warehouse, but it's going to get sold to somebody else at some point.
This is why the general population has gone off of capitalism.
Despite being £162 out of pocket, if some other company buys up the rights and put's the models back for sale I know I'd still end up buying some of the new stuff. I really want one of those giant iceberg carriers.
That does blow. There's a small chance that if someone buys out Spartan's company/IP/products, that they may (just maybe) pledge to fulfill outstanding orders that existing customers had already paid for. Because if they don't they're basically guaranteeing that anyone in that predicament will never buy from them again (thereby gutting their potential customer base before they even get started).
So that's your only real hope...although you should definitely file a paypal or CC claim if you haven't done that already!
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Post by: Azreal13
There's hope.
Once the official receivers are appointed, anyone that Spartan owed (or the controlling LLC more accurately in this case) will have the opportunity to register as a creditor.
The bad news is that a single consumer will be waaay down the food chain after banks, utility companies etc, the good news is that if a creditor is willing to accept on-hand inventory in lieu of cash, then they may just get to jump the queue.
It's a long shot, but it it isn't beyond the pale. Just make sure you've documentary evidence for what you're owed.
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Post by: warboss
That does suck. I've been critical of Spartan in the past but I hope that their inability to ship product owed and in stock before their closure might not end up being what folks remember about them. Then again, Mierce in their previous UK online store pulled some much shadier purposeful moves (or Newwave/CMON in the US years earlier) prior to closing and it doesn't seem like anyone in their thread holds them accountable as long as they themselves continue to get their shinies from the current incarnation.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Yeah like Azreal said, the money to pay for shipping is an asset and creditors have a claim on it.
Legally I'm not sure where Kickstarter pledgers fit in. As I understand it they 'gave' the company money and the company will 'give' them rewards, they are neither customers nor investors.
Regardless there are banks and others with much larger claims than a gamer and his models. The best bet would be for them to band together and try to claim a seat at the table.
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Post by: Overread
As the KS goods are pre-paid and paid for technically they might not default to the shops ownership; however as said they've got frozen accounts so no funding to ship and no access to the premises.
It's a kick in the teeth, but honestly one where Spartan really can't do anything legally at this stage. The other aspect is that banks such won't care about the community nor the community relations. They will want their return.
As such it will all hinge, most likely, on who buys up the assets. Remembering that anything not bought is likely to be dumped (that being the cheapest and most cost effective means to get rid of the items). So it could even be if no one buys up the old KS stock at a good enough price that it just gets destroyed.
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Post by: Mmmpi
Well, it looks like KS's aren't going to get delivered after all.
http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update Automatically Appended Next Post: They do say in the post that there's alot of interest in their product lines however, so it's possible that the games will continue under a new brand.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:Yeah like Azreal said, the money to pay for shipping is an asset and creditors have a claim on it.
Legally I'm not sure where Kickstarter pledgers fit in. As I understand it they 'gave' the company money and the company will 'give' them rewards, they are neither customers nor investors.
Regardless there are banks and others with much larger claims than a gamer and his models. The best bet would be for them to band together and try to claim a seat at the table.
sadly the way transfer of ownership of goods works (here in the UK) means that even though you've paid for specific stuff and its been made for you doesn't mean its yours (even without the added complication of KS rewards not being straight purchaces)
this has been show repeatedly with all the furniture retailers who've gone bust owing customers 'made to order' sofas, chairs etc, the goods remain the property of the company until they are delivered (which is why mail order in the UK is pretty safe, if your stuff doesn't arrive or arrives broken its the company that has to replace it and claim on insurance, not you), until delivery customers are just unsecured creditors
I really hope somebody picks up the dystopian range and rules with the intention of carrying on selling the game as that's the best chance people have of getting their stuff as unless they deliver on the KS they've gutted their potential customer base and created a bunch of anti-ambassadors who'll bring the new owners down whenever the subjects raised
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Post by: Splog
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:[I really hope somebody picks up the dystopian range and rules with the intention of carrying on selling the game as that's the best chance people have of getting their stuff as unless they deliver on the KS they've gutted their potential customer base and created a bunch of anti-ambassadors who'll bring the new owners down whenever the subjects raised
That seems unreasonable and unnecessarily vindictive. It would be a *good* thing for them to deliver on people's KS expectations, but they are hardly required to. If anything, this kind of talk could reduce the likelihood that someone picks it up.
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Post by: Overread
Actually totally new owners could get away without the backlash a they are new owners. That said KS tend to attract your most affluent and die-hard supporters; to say nothing of those who buy in bulk for a club or group. So yes if they fail to deliver or even make amends for the KS in some form then they've got a huge amount of marketing to get over - that said hate could just blowback against Spartan instead of new rights owners - but it could still push many out of the game at a time when new IP owners would want customers on their side.
A huge amount of this depends on costs. How much its going to cost to buy the range; how much in setting up production facilities/taking over production; how much it would cost to ship the produced KS stuff - etc.... Those are going to be some pretty big numbers all around so anyone leaping in has to have skill and deep pockets for a good few years before they are likely to see a return on investment.
Also they've got to be skilled/have access to skilled production facilities in resin. Spartan made some fantastic resin sculpts (heck I've got a few bits where I can't even SEE a single mould line) so anyone taking over has to meet that standard to succeed with the range. The one worry is that someone new to market with money uses this to buy-in but then fails to deliver.
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Post by: warboss
I can't speak for anyone else but if I were a backer or customer who lost out on goods owed (I'm not btw)... I'd only hold a grudge towards the owners and management of Spartan Games. If Neil especially or anyone else that was in any kind of decision making capacity to a lesser extent were involved in the new company that potentially bought the stock and/or the rights, I think it would be appropriate to hold them accountable for their own prior actions.
If some completely 100% unrelated group bought either, I don't think it's fair to saddle them with someone else's defaulted responsibilities. That of course doesn't exclude them offering an olive branch by extending for a limited time a distributor level discount for the exact goods to those screwed over by the previous deals.
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Post by: Desubot
 Mmmpi wrote:Well, it looks like KS's aren't going to get delivered after all.
http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update
Automatically Appended Next Post:
They do say in the post that there's alot of interest in their product lines however, so it's possible that the games will continue under a new brand.
God dammit.
2 bones down the drain :/
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Post by: Desubot
Heh sorry locally use bones as hundreds.
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Post by: Dark Severance
This is starting to appear to be less like a decision Spartan Games themselves made. It looks like it is more 'financial backers' or 'creditors' pulled the plug and essentially seized assets. That is at least how I read the statement about things are frozen and given that inquiries to asset requirement are being forwarded to 'someone else'.
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Post by: ScarletRose
I can understand being mad about lost money and lost orders on this, but can you really hold a grudge against Spartan? From what I understand they haven't chosen to not deliver, they literally can't due to the laws of their country and whatever creditor pulled the rug out from under them.
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Post by: Desubot
 ScarletRose wrote:I can understand being mad about lost money and lost orders on this, but can you really hold a grudge against Spartan? From what I understand they haven't chosen to not deliver, they literally can't due to the laws of their country and whatever creditor pulled the rug out from under them.
I can
They chose to hold a TON of stuff because of "customized rule books"
even though a lot of people didnt order that.
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Post by: Valander
ScarletRose wrote:I can understand being mad about lost money and lost orders on this, but can you really hold a grudge against Spartan? From what I understand they haven't chosen to not deliver, they literally can't due to the laws of their country and whatever creditor pulled the rug out from under them.
I didn't back the KS, so don't necessarily have a horse in this race, but I did want to comment on the later part.
Can I blame Spartan? Absolutely. They knew their financials, and even though it sounds like some of these things came "suddenly," it isn't like they've not been having issues for years now. Often when an "established" company resorts to Kickstarter to fund releases, it's usually a sign that they don't have the cash reserves/flow to keep the business going (certain exceptions with CMON, who use KS as a glorified preorder system, which I also detest). So while the asset-freeze isn't completely their fault, it is Spartan's actions (or, more accurately, lack thereof) that got them to this point in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, I do feel bad for folks who worked there as well as folks who were looking forward to getting this new stuff. But after buying into Firestorm: Planetfall and watching them essentially abandon that game to go after the shiny new Halo licensed games, then watching that likewise get ignored for the next shiny thing that caught their eye, and seeing that this was a pattern for them, I am honestly not surprised it went down this way.
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Post by: Azreal13
No dog in this fight either but..
Can I blame Spartan? Absolutely. They knew their financials, and even though it sounds like some of these things came "suddenly," it isn't like they've not been having issues for years now. Often when an "established" company resorts to Kickstarter to fund releases, it's usually a sign that they don't have the cash reserves/flow to keep the business going (certain exceptions with CMON, who use KS as a glorified preorder system, which I also detest). So while the asset-freeze isn't completely their fault, it is Spartan's actions (or, more accurately, lack thereof) that got them to this point in the first place.
This is also a perfect summary of why anyone who backed the KS should have done so with caution and remembered that KS isn't a pre order platform and that your money is actually at risk if you back a project.
This isn't to diminish people's right to feel pissed off if they lost money, nor do I expect it to stop people blaming those associated with the company anyway, God knows I've seen people carry chips for years in similar situations, no reason why the fallout of this won't create a few more, but perhaps it's a timely reminder that throwing boat loads of cash at KS projects isn't always a safe thing to do.
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Post by: Desubot
 Azreal13 wrote:No dog in this fight either but..
Can I blame Spartan? Absolutely. They knew their financials, and even though it sounds like some of these things came "suddenly," it isn't like they've not been having issues for years now. Often when an "established" company resorts to Kickstarter to fund releases, it's usually a sign that they don't have the cash reserves/flow to keep the business going (certain exceptions with CMON, who use KS as a glorified preorder system, which I also detest). So while the asset-freeze isn't completely their fault, it is Spartan's actions (or, more accurately, lack thereof) that got them to this point in the first place.
This is also a perfect summary of why anyone who backed the KS should have done so with caution and remembered that KS isn't a pre order platform and that your money is actually at risk if you back a project.
This isn't to diminish people's right to feel pissed off if they lost money, nor do I expect it to stop people blaming those associated with the company anyway, God knows I've seen people carry chips for years in similar situations, no reason why the fallout of this won't create a few more, but perhaps it's a timely reminder that throwing boat loads of cash at KS projects isn't always a safe thing to do.
Oh no absolutely correct. its definitely not a preorder and there are plenty of risks always.
and its definitely not the first successful kickstarter that didn't fulfill.
still angry about losing out on product.
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Post by: Azreal13
Which is a perfectly valid and healthy response.
It will be less valid and healthy if you fly into a rage every time someone mentions anything that even rhymes with "Spartan Games" on a weekly basis for the next thirty years.
We've one or two "once bitten, forever bitter" indidivuals associated with different companies on the board who are beginning to resemble that picture, and I'm just trying to save a few more souls from that descent into the pit while there's time.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
I have loads of Dystopian Wars stuff, most of it unpainted. I absolutely loved that game, but never had the time to paint much of it. So I kinda gave up on it last year.
I really hope this is not the end for Dystopian Wars. It had so many amazing and unique miniatures. If someone bought the IP and rights to all the miniatures, I guess they'd have the foundations for a pretty solid little business.
Also, should someone be interested in my Dystopian Wars stuff, drop me a PM. The odds of me ever getting back to it are now lower than ever and I really need more space.
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Post by: Sarouan
Azreal13 wrote:
We've one or two "once bitten, forever bitter" indidivuals associated with different companies on the board who are beginning to resemble that picture, and I'm just trying to save a few more souls from that descent into the pit while there's time.
The difference here is that Spartan Games no longer exists, so yes you could keep the rage for years, but it's unlikely when the source isn't there anymore.
So far, it's more about letting out the frustration before getting back to your senses.
I still have a ton of Firestorm Armada models. Rather than ditching it, I decided to complete the collection. I managed to grab a few models I didn't buy at the time, it's already a good thing. Then I will try to keep playing in 2.0, since the game system is still relevant with all the fleet lists pretty much balanced. Maybe we can work a few tweaks here and there with still interested players - I heard there is a facebook page about a project called "Fanstorm" somewhere.
That doesn't mean I will forget what Spartan Neil did.
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Post by: Balance
One of the interesting things about how many small companies the game industry has is I think a lot of us figure we could have done better. A lot of people impacted by this figure that if Spartan had been more focused, hadn't gotten an expensive license for Halo, or had made some other key choices differently they wouldn't be in this situation.
I am in no way saying I don't do that myself at times.
I'm thinking the best bet would be for the product lines to get split up: Firestorm to one company, Dystopian to another, etc. Let them all evolve into their own unique things that are fun and playable.
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Post by: Easy E
As a business owner myself, it is far more likely that a company goes out of business than survives. Corvus Belli, Mantic, Warlord, and Games Workshop are miracles as opposed to the norm. Spartan had a good run lasting as long as they did.
Something else to consider. So much of what a game company does is not just creative or marketing. There is a lot of manufacturing, contracts, shipping, accounting, financing, warehousing, etc. There is so much that can go wrong and sink the business that has nothing to do with what we see as gamers.
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Post by: Killionaire
It's a complete miracle Spartan survived half as long as it did, considering it's many failings were visible in public for the last 68 years at least. They hit their peak at Firestorm v2 and could not understand how to make good decisions afterwards.
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Post by: SeanDrake
So there selling Rebel Publishing(Spartan) in a number of parts.
1. The name and and associated logos.
2. The list of 15k customers
3. Assorted Spartan brand merchandise and gaming tables and miscellaneous.
4. The Dystopian Wars game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock.
5. The Dystopian Legions game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock
6. The firestorm armarda range including planet fall and strike, moulds production files and all existing stock.
7. Spartan Scenics range and all existing stock.
If I am honest I really am not happy about item 2 but might put a cheeky offer on 6 and 7.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and the Halo licences were terminated as soon as the insolvancy firm we're brought in. I emailed MS marketing department to enquire if the licence was available and if ownership of the moulds and rules had reverted to them or had been destroyed.
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Post by: RiTides
Yeah,  at number 2, but hopefully the rest of the items find their way to wargaming companies who can continue with them!
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Post by: lord_blackfang
The scummyness continues.
This sort of gak would land them a 12.000 euro fine in Slovenia. Perhaps the only area where our law is way ahead of the rest of the world.
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Post by: Overread
Actually chances are its not Spartans choice on what gets sold. It's in the hands of whoever is overseeing the closure and they will itemise and break it down and use ANY assets the company has to make a profit.
So yes they'd sell the customer list; its an asset like any other. They also won't care who buys it either so long as they pay. It's situations like this where you can end up with rights or IP or such owned by organisations well outside of the franchise.
For example computer game IP and rights have oft ended up held by legal firms or other companies who bought in when the companies closed (its seen way more in computer games because its far more common for companies to fold and close). Breaking up the IP and content is also common; its why, again, you can see parts of things held by different groups after a company goes bust.
Again this isn't Spartan selling it; its the process of the company going bust. So long as its legal to sell in the UK they'll sell it.
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Post by: silent25
SeanDrake wrote:So there selling Rebel Publishing(Spartan) in a number of parts.
1. The name and and associated logos.
2. The list of 15k customers
3. Assorted Spartan brand merchandise and gaming tables and miscellaneous.
4. The Dystopian Wars game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock.
5. The Dystopian Legions game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock
6. The firestorm armarda range including planet fall and strike, moulds production files and all existing stock.
7. Spartan Scenics range and all existing stock.
If I am honest I really am not happy about item 2 but might put a cheeky offer on 6 and 7.
Why not #2 also? Then when playing someone in an old Spartan game, you can look at them and say, "I know where you live!". 
But selling the data isn't necessarily Spartan's fault. Its property and gets sold like everything else. Issues with a number of customer data sales have occurred with bankrupt companies. When they declare bankruptcy, any privacy policy they may have had in effect goes out the window.
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Post by: Charax
Shame about the Halo stock - it's not unexpected that the licenses would revert to their respective owners, but all that stock just wiped out...
I knew Ground Command was a stupid buy...
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Post by: Ir0njack
I hope someone picks up #6 and releases the models that never made it to production or had gotten the axe, here was some really good stuff. Heck I'd put a offer on it if I wasn't sure it would be out of my range.
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Post by: Tamereth
#1 seems like a poisoned chalice, surely anyone looking to take on the games going forward would want to do so under a new banner.
#2 is scummy, but typical of modern business's
#4 is the important one for me, If I win the lottery this week I'll make a bid, but otherwise is probably beyond my means.
#5 would be very weird if this didn't end up with the same holders as #4, if anything I'd expect this one to be left to die while the main game carries on.
The Halo games dying is sad, I have a large collection of fleet battles stuff. I'd really like a second of CAS and autumn class cruiser but the chance of ever seeing one on ebay for a reasonable price seems slim. More depressing is the idea that we'll never get a model for the pillar of autumn or the infinity for the game. I know both existed at least digitally.
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Post by: Vertrucio
Charax wrote:Shame about the Halo stock - it's not unexpected that the licenses would revert to their respective owners, but all that stock just wiped out...
I knew Ground Command was a stupid buy...
Admittedly, Halo Ground Combat was in 15-18mm scale right? That'll fit in easily with a lot of 15mm scifi rules sets and miniatures, of varying level of space opera. So, not an entirely bad investment.
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Post by: Digclaw
I'm just glad I never bought anything from them directly, but a friend of mine got me Dystopian Legions stuff for christmas a year or so back. I need to get him the heads up
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Post by: BrandonKF
Someone mentioned over on Facebook group Dystopian Wars and Legions this: "Well, the Administrators dealing with Spartan are now actively looking for bids. Not sure what else I can publically say at the moment. But I'm relatively happy so far."
So, there is some news that interested parties are possible to pick up what's left.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
SeanDrake wrote:So there selling Rebel Publishing(Spartan) in a number of parts.
1. The name and and associated logos.
2. The list of 15k customers
3. Assorted Spartan brand merchandise and gaming tables and miscellaneous.
4. The Dystopian Wars game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock.
5. The Dystopian Legions game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock
6. The firestorm armarda range including planet fall and strike, moulds production files and all existing stock.
7. Spartan Scenics range and all existing stock.
If I am honest I really am not happy about item 2 but might put a cheeky offer on 6 and 7.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and the Halo licences were terminated as soon as the insolvancy firm we're brought in. I emailed MS marketing department to enquire if the licence was available and if ownership of the moulds and rules had reverted to them or had been destroyed.
What's the source on this?
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Post by: SeanDrake
Kid_Kyoto wrote:SeanDrake wrote:So there selling Rebel Publishing(Spartan) in a number of parts.
1. The name and and associated logos.
2. The list of 15k customers
3. Assorted Spartan brand merchandise and gaming tables and miscellaneous.
4. The Dystopian Wars game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock.
5. The Dystopian Legions game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock
6. The firestorm armarda range including planet fall and strike, moulds production files and all existing stock.
7. Spartan Scenics range and all existing stock.
If I am honest I really am not happy about item 2 but might put a cheeky offer on 6 and 7.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and the Halo licences were terminated as soon as the insolvancy firm we're brought in. I emailed MS marketing department to enquire if the licence was available and if ownership of the moulds and rules had reverted to them or had been destroyed.
What's the source on this?
I requested the information from the receivers.
The production equipment is being sold separately as well and on a tighter timescale. This combined with the splitting up of the range concerns me that one person is unlikely to get everything.
Awaiting more info on the production equipment will post when I get it if anyone is interested.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Thanks, sorry if that sounded rude, it was meant as a legit question.
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Post by: Overread
Makes sense; equipment is likely bulky and requires removal from the rented worksite; so the company dealing with the sale won't want to hold onto that any longer than they hvae to because they'd be liable for the rent; so best to shed that material fast.
The IP is likely the more expensive so its worth finding a good buyer; and IP itself is basically diskdrives and data that's fairly easy to store - stock wise we aren't sure how much there is of that in bulk to store up but might well be less or just easier to store than the machines.
It's very unlikely that a single company will buy it all up; heck I doubt there's many that could buy up all the lines Spartan does and put them into serious production.
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Post by: Dark Severance
Overread wrote:Makes sense; equipment is likely bulky and requires removal from the rented worksite; so the company dealing with the sale won't want to hold onto that any longer than they hvae to because they'd be liable for the rent; so best to shed that material fast.
The IP is likely the more expensive so its worth finding a good buyer; and IP itself is basically diskdrives and data that's fairly easy to store - stock wise we aren't sure how much there is of that in bulk to store up but might well be less or just easier to store than the machines.
It is usually the reverse of this, equipment has more value than the actual IP.
It isn't unusual to separate equipment from other assets during these types things and historically equipment sells for top dollar. The equipment is a premium because it can be immediately used and has multiple uses, not something specific to an IP which means it has a more retainable value than the actual IP itself.
The IP can be worth more but the prospective interests in that vs equipment is much smaller. Simply buying a product line doesn't equate to making money, it is an investment and a large one that does require a lot more capital to actually utilized. There is rebranding, existing customer base may not care it is owned by another company (there will always be a conspiracy theory that they sold it to one of their people)... there are just so many things that can go wrong and affect the value of the IP.
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Post by: SeanDrake
Yeah it mentions that the landlord wants it gone asap.
While I guess most ip stuff is electronic it states there are silicon and metal moulds as part of each line.
The equipment is apparently high end and only a few years old is expected to sell quick and for a high price.
The only reason the IP stuff is not going to sell for literally pennies is because there bundling the relevant existing stock in with it.
Also no worries about asking where I got the info from understand why. But if I sound short it is because I am looking after my 2yr old while typing this and working out how much I can offer.
Not sure what's going to happen but I sadly don't see a white knight coming to the rescue. Expect to see Dystopian and Scenics vanish after a glut of product being sold through.
Firestorm might make it but it depends on if anyone in the industry considers it worth the hassle otherwise some lucky loon like me might get it and try running it as a garage outfit.
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Post by: Dark Severance
SeanDrake wrote:The only reason the IP stuff is not going to sell for literally pennies is because there bundling the relevant existing stock in with it.
From what I'm being told the existing stock if very minimal. Ther are master and production moulds for both resin and metal casting. However stock is very low so anything that needs to be produced will need to be done so. Also, existing stock should technically be repackaged and rebranded, which is a low cost but anyone buying wouldn't want to be using Spartan packaging for what is going to be a new venture.
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Post by: UNCLEBADTOUCH
Don't worry it's not like battlefront is trying to buy it
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Post by: griffen127
Halo Ground Command was a very good game. I've been mini gaming for about 20 years. It was a very good game that could have been great. Such a terrible shame it's done. It's upsetting to me that Spartan could not have its vision realized. The really sad thing is it may have been a large reason the company folded. Neil should have delegate when he became ill.
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Post by: Johanxp
I do agree. Ground Command had some very clever ideas and seemed a very nice game to play.
Very sorry for Spartan Games.
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Post by: NTRabbit
Hey, Mantic could pick up a ready made set of minis for a Warpath fleet game, they'd only need to commission someone to write the rules
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Post by: Balance
This may just be my opinion, but I kind of hope the IP gets split up. Let the Firestorm and Dystopian games diverge if they can find homes that are better to them.
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Post by: griffen127
Can anyone explain to me why Halo is dead. I don't understand the legal aspect. What happens to the halo fleet/ ground figures, molds rules, in progress stats etc. I am sure there are people on here that can explain this stuff. Firefighting and para medicine didn't prepare me for bankruptcy law. Lol
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Post by: Dark Severance
 griffen127 wrote:Can anyone explain to me why Halo is dead. I don't understand the legal aspect. What happens to the halo fleet/ ground figures, molds rules, in progress stats etc. I am sure there are people on here that can explain this stuff. Firefighting and para medicine didn't prepare me for bankruptcy law. Lol
Halo is an existing IP that isn't owned by Spartan Games. They basically licensed it from the owners (Microsoft) to be able to create the game which isn't uncommon. Once Spartan closed the doors (or even before then just depends on how the license terms) it reverted back to Microsoft. As it was announced in the paperwork:
"The business had expanded its range from that of in house created games to also include the production of a tabletop version of the video game Halo, under license from Microsoft. This license has not been terminated.".
All rights go back to microsoft. It really depends on the conditions of the terminations and the contract. Spartan can maintain the moulds and files, but be required to destroy or shred them. They may have also just simply had in the terms that it goes to Microsoft. Either way Microsoft isn't going to maintain it.. the point of licensing is so they don't have to handle the production (someone else takes the risk). Someone might be able to pick it up and utilize the existing stuff but rebrands typically take an initial loss because existing items people have, so they are waiting to see new or improved support. Either it is an infrastructure which Microsoft most likely would do, which means the game is dead.
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Post by: Mmmpi
So, after the news broke, but before we found out that our KS stuff definitely wasn't going to be sent, I sent an email asking if my investment could be refunded in remaining stock. Basically I was trying to do an end run to getting what I had "already given money for". Today I received this email and linked document from Rebel Publishing:
Dear Sir,
Rebel Publishing Limited Trading As Spartan Games - in Administration
The Company records indicate that you have previously provided funding via a kickstarter campaign, accordingly, please find attached a letter in respect of the Administration of the above company.
Please note that in view of the current status of the company, if you have not yet received your products, there are no finished products available and no further products will be shipped.
Yours faithfully,
Jason Bevan
For T A Close
Administrator
Rebel Publishing Limited Trading as Spartan Games
e: jbevan@milsted-langdon.co.uk
w: www.milsted-langdon.co.uk
t: 01823 445566
Bath 01225 904940 | Bristol 0117 945 2500 | London 0203 150 1113 | Taunton 01823 445566 | Yeovil 01935 383500
Milsted Langdon is a trading name of Milsted Langdon LLP, a limited liability partnership registered in England with LLP number OC329479. The registered office of Milsted Langdon LLP is Winchester House, Deane Gate Avenue, Taunton, TA1 2UH. A list of the members of the LLP is available for inspection at the registered office.
MGI Worldwide is a network of independent audit, tax, accounting and consulting firms. MGI Worldwide does not provide any services and its member firms are not an international partnership. Each member firm is a separate entity and neither MGI Worldwide nor any member firm accepts responsibility for the activities, work, opinions or services of any other member firm. For more information visit www.mgiworld.com/legal
Information contained in this email is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy, distribute, or take any action in reliance on it. Email attachments could contain viruses. Whilst Milsted Langdon takes reasonable steps to minimise risk, we recommend any attachments are virus checked before opening.
Mr T A Close, Mrs R Hotham, Mr R A Isaacs and Mr S A Rowe are licensed as insolvency practitioners in the UK by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales. Where they are appointed as Administrator they act as agents of the company without personal liability. In such cases the affairs, business and property of the company are being managed by them as Administrators.
and the document they attached is here. (link goes to a copy in my Google Drive account)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5GcXTf7FNC9dWdGVE5uaUYydVk/view?usp=sharing
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Post by: ScarletRose
Wow, that's harsh. But the attached letter seems to suggest you can maybe get the money by back by making a claim as a creditor?
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Post by: NTRabbit
It suggests that, but in reality no creditors at our level will ever see any money returned, because the asset sales are unlikely to completely satisfy the major creditors at the start of the line, ie the bank that loaned them the money, and then anyone yet to be paid for goods or services like resin sellers, printers, etc, and then after that employees with outstanding wages.
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Post by: Overread
Your best bet is to claim through your bank/card and then see if they'll refund you under those conditions; the bank then claims back off them. It's about the only possibility that you've got
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Post by: NTRabbit
Which is also a non-starter for KS backers, because it funded December 22 last year, and as far as I'm aware it's rare for a bank to process chargebacks past 90 days.
KS backers are basically gak out of luck, unless someone steps in "The Doom that came to Atlantic City" style and fulfills the basic boxes and books, but skipping the extraneous stuff like personalised books, the busts, and some stretch goals.
Edit: Unless you were some kind of super backer who finalised at over 1000 pounds, then you get to join the queue as a major creditor ahead of the rest of us.
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Post by: Sheck2
SeanDrake wrote:So there selling Rebel Publishing(Spartan) in a number of parts.
2. The list of 15k customers
If I am honest I really am not happy about item 2
Why?
Customers are an asset. It is common in any corporate sale especially in services (not just bankruptcies). The accounts are the value. I can guarantee 'your account/information' has been legally sold by multiple companies you value and purchase from. Lastly, customer lists usually include DTC and BTB accounts. So the value may only be in a small percentage of the list.
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Post by: Formosa
SeanDrake wrote:So there selling Rebel Publishing(Spartan) in a number of parts.
1. The name and and associated logos.
2. The list of 15k customers
3. Assorted Spartan brand merchandise and gaming tables and miscellaneous.
4. The Dystopian Wars game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock.
5. The Dystopian Legions game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock
6. The firestorm armarda range including planet fall and strike, moulds production files and all existing stock.
7. Spartan Scenics range and all existing stock.
If I am honest I really am not happy about item 2 but might put a cheeky offer on 6 and 7.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and the Halo licences were terminated as soon as the insolvancy firm we're brought in. I emailed MS marketing department to enquire if the licence was available and if ownership of the moulds and rules had reverted to them or had been destroyed.
They are selling the list of customers or have I read that wrong?
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Post by: Mmmpi
You've got that right. Stores, distributors, and anyone who bought from Spartan Direct.
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Post by: Dark Severance
 NTRabbit wrote:Which is also a non-starter for KS backers, because it funded December 22 last year, and as far as I'm aware it's rare for a bank to process chargebacks past 90 days.
Paypal usually won't process chargebacks past 90 days but credit cards will chargeback years. At least I've never had any issues doing chargebacks on multiple cards for failed delivery of something I paid for years (a couple Indiegogo projects I had an issue with had to be charged back).
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Post by: Desubot
So anyone that spent less than 1000 doesnt have to do anything. is that right?
i hate legalese.
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Post by: Overread
 Formosa wrote:
They are selling the list of customers or have I read that wrong?
The company dealing with the closure is selling the customer list - its an asset like any other and the company selling assets is doing just that. They will sell EVERYTHING that they legally can sell in order to raise funds to cover the amounts owed.
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Post by: Mmmpi
 Desubot wrote:So anyone that spent less than 1000 doesnt have to do anything. is that right?
i hate legalese.
People who spent less than 1000L don't have to provide documentation of their investment/expenditure. We would still have to submit the form though. Automatically Appended Next Post: Most of us do have documentation however, due to most online sales being done through credit/debit cards, and KS recording the transactions done on their site.
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Post by: Desubot
Allrighty than.
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Post by: Mmmpi
I think this method isn't required if we go through our credit card companies.
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Post by: NTRabbit
The problem with the chargeback for KS backers is that it charges back from Kickstarter, not Spartan, and I doubt that's something that will be problem-free. Even doing a chargeback on the pledge manager is taking the money back from Backerkit.
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Post by: warboss
Screw kickstarter. As a multimillion company, they can afford to list themselves as a creditor if needed or absorb the losses alternately. As a corporate entity they don't lift a finger to help let alone shed any tears for backers screwed over by unscrupulous creators. They won't even bother to stop failed creators who fail to complete their previous crowdfunding rewards from attempting to do so again. They give no loyalty or claim to bear no responsibility so they deserve no loyalty either.
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Post by: NTRabbit
I don't care about Kickstarter or Backerkit as a company, I do care about them potentially closing my account and blacklisting me for a chargeback they consider false.
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Post by: Dark Severance
NTRabbit wrote:I don't care about Kickstarter or Backerkit as a company, I do care about them potentially closing my account and blacklisting me for a chargeback they consider false.
They aren't going to blacklist you. They don't even care or make the determination or investigation if something is false. It is the price of doing business that they are doing. Since they don't enforce and investigate the completion or delivery of a Kickstarter, they don't have a group or person who investigations charge backs to determine that the claim is false.
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Post by: Easy E
Wow, a customer list of only 15K? No wonder why they are out of business.
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Post by: Azreal13
No, that'll be the list of customers that dealt with them directly, not through a local or online retailer, and didn't check/uncheck the little "use my details" box as well, presumably.
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Post by: Dark Severance
Well it looks like my dreams of business expansion and bringing it to better US distribution channels, providing organized play support are shot. I am not one of the top offers, at least for, Spartan Scenics and Firestorm Armada. For Firestorm Armada at least, whoever is picking them up is investing over £50,000.
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Post by: Tamereth
£50,000 for firestorm, I would image that would have been going for less than dystopian as well.
Hopefully some serious players are taking these games on.
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Post by: Dark Severance
Tamereth wrote:£50,000 for firestorm, I would image that would have been going for less than dystopian as well.
Hopefully some serious players are taking these games on.
Well the Firestorm Armada line also includes Planetfall since it falls into that same universe.
Some of it might just be the upsell of the administration taking offers. According to Spartan Games last full financial year, the reported revenue for Dystopian was £89,513 plus £135,000 raised in the Kickstarter Campaign; Firestorm did £142,953 and Spartan Scenics did £20,709.
However that is just revenue, that isn't profit, doesn't account for cost and other factors. I could see someone reading that as they made £142,000+ so they will get their investment back in a year. I was really only willing to go in for as much as the sculpts cost to create. Yes they have an existing customer base and moving them from the UK to the US could have potentially been big, but there is no guarantee of it. At worst relaunch their Kickstarter (since those digital files are part of it) but there is still a cost involved... rebranding, repackaging, increasing current resin production.
I hope that someone is taking them on and improves on them. It will be interesting to see what happens with them though. That was all I could pull together on such short notice, only had 2 weeks to finalize offers. I am curious who ends up with it. Supposedly top offers were told they are the top offers. They have an opportunity to inspect the assets before placing their final offer.
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Post by: Overread
The short notice is a big problem, it might well mean a company spends a fortune getting the IP this year, but then has to wait a year or more to really have further investment to put it into production.
However its approached its a big investment but one that will take time.
One, if bitter sweet, bonus is that because of the way Spartan was running; its not too bad if there's a longish gap before things go back on sale again; because Spartan was already run down to a small core fanbase. So its unlikely that they'll lose many customers/fans over that time period. Plus any marketing would be essential to reboot so doesn't matter if its all on sale and marketed tomorrow or in a years time. (though of course the sooner the better).
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Post by: SeanDrake
The people who could benefit most from all that firestorm IP mat never use it, Hawk could buy it to sit on it basicly reducing there competition to zero.
If GW really are working on a new BFG or Epic then 50k is much cheaper than legal action to get rid of a competitor.
Hopefully it is someone who wants to build on the game as I do love FSA. TT, Element or wayland all might be interested or even Mantic or Warlord to reskin it to there universe's. Fingers crossed
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Post by: RiTides
Dark Severance wrote: NTRabbit wrote:Which is also a non-starter for KS backers, because it funded December 22 last year, and as far as I'm aware it's rare for a bank to process chargebacks past 90 days.
Paypal usually won't process chargebacks past 90 days but credit cards will chargeback years. At least I've never had any issues doing chargebacks on multiple cards for failed delivery of something I paid for years (a couple Indiegogo projects I had an issue with had to be charged back).
Both credit cards and Paypal, at least in the US, now have to give you a 180-day window - this was updated a while back for Paypal, I think partly because scammers were able to run out the 90-day clock too easily. Even with that, right when they changed over I was able to call and get the 180-day window applied to a problematic transaction I had.
To reply to your later point, I successfully did a chargeback on a non-delivering KS, and all that happened was KS sent me an email saying it was them paying, not the creator. Given the amount KS makes on non-delivering projects, I think as many people as possible should file chargebacks regarding failed projects (I would prefer that KS refund at least part of their 10% fee to backers of those projects instead, if they were being more reputable, but they refuse to do so).
So yes, this is absolutely an option and no one should be dissauded from trying it if they backed this project. You literally have nothing to lose, and absolutely no other recourse to recover your funds, so you should definitely do so before 180 days is up.
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Post by: Overread
SeanDrake wrote:The people who could benefit most from all that firestorm IP mat never use it, Hawk could buy it to sit on it basicly reducing there competition to zero.
If GW really are working on a new BFG or Epic then 50k is much cheaper than legal action to get rid of a competitor.
Hopefully it is someone who wants to build on the game as I do love FSA. TT, Element or wayland all might be interested or even Mantic or Warlord to reskin it to there universe's. Fingers crossed
Honestly Firestorm was tiny compared to BFG and GW's potential reach. I can't see them worrying unless Firestorm was infringing on their copyright/IP/trademark. GW has never really taken the harsh line of trying to shut down competition unless it was directly attempting to do resculpts/alternate sculpts. Firestorm wasn't so I can't see GW investing any attention in it what so ever - sure its cheap but its still a big chunk of money in this market.
Firestorm was (at its best) bigger than Hawks game, but Hawk doesn't strike me as a company with the investment potential to outright sink competition like that - for a company their size that $50+K would be far better spent on their own product line rather than attempting to buy-out competition.
There is great potential that the IP could get taken up by a company that never uses it; or that it gets taken up by a company outside of wargaming (perhaps with a view that its a cheap buy now that can be resold later for a higher profit with more time/marketing - though I'd think that unlikely given that this is Firestorm not Warhammer we are talking about).
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Post by: Tannhauser42
It could even be some video game company buying it so they'll have a ready-made setting and designs for whatever video games they want to use it for.
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Post by: Killionaire
Firestorm's IP is worth nothing. Why? Because it's generic space IP, and is designed so. There's nothing to build off of, except for a number of spaceship sculpt models which to be honest, while nice are in fact showing their age compared to current state of the art.
Anyone who's going to be creating space tabletop games will use their own IP, in part to also avoid the backlash that Firestorm has had and very poor reputation of Spartan thanks to their history of incompetence.
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Post by: Azreal13
Killionaire wrote:Firestorm's IP is worth nothing.
Well, that's objectively untrue..
Dark Severance wrote:Well it looks like my dreams of business expansion and bringing it to better US distribution channels, providing organized play support are shot. I am not one of the top offers, at least for, Spartan Scenics and Firestorm Armada. For Firestorm Armada at least, whoever is picking them up is investing over £50,000.
Given the old adage something is worth what someone is willing to pay, Firestorm Armada is worth upwards of fifty grand.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
The strength of a generic, fairly popular ruleset is that it can be easily adapted. Sure, Halo didn't work out so well, but I wonder how much it would cost to buy the rights to a few book series and make a sort of a heroclix range, with Kzin, the Culture, Lensmen, the Pax, whatever other setting is effectively dead weight for a publisher but a potential modest hit for a game maker.
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Post by: Overread
The story setting of Firestorm is weak, the fluff is weak. But assuming that the IP comes with moulds and designs then its an instant product that can be produced at a high quality level.
Sure I'd expect any company taking over to change the stories and even the rules, but the models themselves are what would be the profit turner.
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Post by: schoon
Happy to hear the Firestorm IP got picked up. It will be interesting to see what's done with it.
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Post by: Elessar
Overread wrote:The story setting of Firestorm is weak, the fluff is weak. But assuming that the IP comes with moulds and designs then its an instant product that can be produced at a high quality level.
Sure I'd expect any company taking over to change the stories and even the rules, but the models themselves are what would be the profit turner.
At the end of the day, people can and will continue playing whatever version of rules they want, if the models are still available.
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Post by: Mmmpi
 Elessar wrote: Overread wrote:The story setting of Firestorm is weak, the fluff is weak. But assuming that the IP comes with moulds and designs then its an instant product that can be produced at a high quality level. Sure I'd expect any company taking over to change the stories and even the rules, but the models themselves are what would be the profit turner.
At the end of the day, people can and will continue playing whatever version of rules they want, if the models are still available.
Besides, if it was popular enough and no new version of the rules are released, you could see the game become a fan project, like BFG, or 9th Age.
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Post by: Overread
Anyone heard of a confirmation date as to when the sales will be finalised and thus we might hear some news on what has happened to the various IP ?
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Post by: legoburner
Today I believe, but announcements will be up to the parties involved. Just what I've head on the grapevine.
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Post by: Ruckdog
 legoburner wrote:Today I believe, but announcements will be up to the parties involved. Just what I've head on the grapevine.
The impending sale checks with what I've been hearing as well,though it sounds like your info is more up to date than mine. Looking forward to the announcements!
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Post by: Overread
Anyone heard anything?
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Post by: Soulless
I just want to mention that having paid my pledge through PayPal, I was protected by PayPals policy and got a full refund for the entire amount from them!
PayPal, simply put, is awesome!
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Post by: warboss
That's odd as iirc Paypal changed their policy and specifically excluded crowdfunding from the list of protectable purchases last year (unless your kickstarter may have concluded prior to their annoucement). In any case, congrats!
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Post by: Soulless
I did a late pledge in march this year so idk.
I did look through PayPals policies before filing the complaint though and found nothing indicating crowdfunding wouldnt be included in their protection.
Had PayPal not deemed it applicable I could have tried filing the same issue with my cardsupplier since they too offer extensive protection.
Whatever the case im good and happe for it
Still sad to see Dystopian Wars die though :/
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Post by: warboss
Soulless wrote:I did a late pledge in march this year so idk.
I did look through PayPals policies before filing the complaint though and found nothing indicating crowdfunding wouldnt be included in their protection.
Had PayPal not deemed it applicable I could have tried filing the same issue with my cardsupplier since they too offer extensive protection.
Whatever the case im good and happe for it
Still sad to see Dystopian Wars die though :/
Did you do the late pledge directly with Spartan and specifically NOT through kickstarter? If so, that might be why as they may have treated it as a normal purchase instead. In any case, here is what I was referring to:
http://fortune.com/2016/05/08/paypal-to-drop-purchase-protection-for-crowdfunding-projects/
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Post by: Mmmpi
Those are cool!
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Post by: Brian2112
I just received this email:
"Wayland Games Ltd (Buyer) purchased certain assets of Rebel Publishing Ltd (trading as Spartan Games) on Friday 22nd September 2017 and we note that you are currently listed on Rebel Publishing Limited's (Seller) customer database for the purpose of receiving details of products and/or services from the Seller.
Your personal data has been transferred to the Buyer for the continued provision of the details of such products and/or services to you. The Buyer will process your personal data fairly and lawfully in accordance with the principles of the Data Protection Act 1998 for the sole purpose of continuing to provide such details to you...
Yours sincerely,
Wayland Games"
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Post by: Desubot
Brian2112 wrote:I just received this email:
"Wayland Games Ltd (Buyer) purchased certain assets of Rebel Publishing Ltd (trading as Spartan Games) on Friday 22nd September 2017 and we note that you are currently listed on Rebel Publishing Limited's (Seller) customer database for the purpose of receiving details of products and/or services from the Seller.
Your personal data has been transferred to the Buyer for the continued provision of the details of such products and/or services to you. The Buyer will process your personal data fairly and lawfully in accordance with the principles of the Data Protection Act 1998 for the sole purpose of continuing to provide such details to you...
Yours sincerely,
Wayland Games"
Just got it too. never going to use their UK based service here in the US so they just got ripped for whatever my data was worth
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Post by: Valander
Just got an official one from Wayland, too, so looks like that's the deal.
We have some great news from Warcradle Studios!
We are proud to announce that we have acquired all rights and materials relating to the Dystopian Wars, Firestorm Armada and Uncharted Seas settings.
Dystopian Wars, Dystopian Legions, Armoured Clash, Firestorm Armada, Firestorm Planetfall and Uncharted Seas were created by the team at Spartan Games and we are excited to now be able to explore these settings further. We will also be developing and expanding on a large number of exciting scenic products to support these ranges.
We are actively working to bring the games to a wide audience from next year. Through Warcradle Studios, Wayland Games will be investing in all aspects of the design, development and supply of these worlds.
We are committed to producing an exciting range of new plastic and resin miniatures to support the growth of our games. These will build on the established releases as well as introduce new narrative and competitive gaming opportunities.
We are planning in-store organised play support for our games as well as a range of exciting events planned throughout 2018 and beyond.
Look out for our announcements of new products and show attendance in the coming weeks!
Might be good. Seems like they've done some good work to get Wild West Exodus 2.0 out there.
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Post by: NTRabbit
I wonder if they'll try and reach out to KS backers? They're not under any obligation to but, again, like what happened with The Doom that came to Atlantic City, it'd be a good gesture to draw back some previous customers.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
slightly surprised that all of the ranges went to a single home as flitting between systems seems to have been part of the reason they ended up in trouble,
but hopefully Warcradle do well with them
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Post by: NTRabbit
What they've listed above is really only 5 games though, if you consider Armored clash to just be an alternative way to play with the dw minis, which isn't all that much to deal with if you manage your people correctly. Spartan just didn't seem to manage their time or resources all that well, and they had the two HALO games on top of that, plus there was the Spaceship equivalent to Armoured Clash, and they'd been working on a space fighter game that fit into the X-Wing market segment.
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Post by: Overread
I'm glad that a bigger name like Wayland picked them up and was able to get all the titles under one roof. That Wayland is UK based as well means there's a chance that some of the original team could be picked up as well to work on the games - designers and the like.
Even if not glad that its got a good home and hopefully in the new year we can see the titles return to sale and development
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Post by: Sarus
Just had this email as well. Intrigued to wait and see how all this develops now. Especially since they mentioned Uncharted Seas as well. My local group always enjoyed that more than some of the other Spartan games and when the support dropped it killed a lot of interest in trying the others.
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Post by: Overread
It sounds like Wayland simply bought up Spartan lock-stock-and-barrel. Uncharted always had huge potential, but being the first game their resin casting wasn't the best early one and clearly the improved resin and rules of Dystopian Wars took storn and left Uncharted in the dust.
If Uncharted can be pushed out in good time it could preempt an attempt by GW to bring Man O War back (considering how GW has brought back a good few other older smaller games its not a stretch to think that they could bring that back as well in time).
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Post by: Vertrucio
Uncharted Lands might also be a thing.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Warcradle has started a new thread so I'm shutting this one.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/740618.page
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