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The rules weren't that bad, actually. Firestorm Armada 2.0 had a good basis and well balanced army lists for most of the ships.

To me, the main reasons are those :

1. Focusing everything on their own online store, competing with retailers with their bundles and forcing them to drop their products
2. Inability to stick to a schedule and promises keeping to be broken all the time
3. Horrible communication
4. Producing games that ARE COMPETING DIRECTLY WITH THEIR OWN GAMES (Halo Fleet Battle vs Firestorm Armada, Halo Ground Command vs Firestorm Planetfall)
5. Shifting the designing teams to one game to another, meaning the others games were simply left behind for an unbelievable long time
6. Not paying their own teams of game designers...basing the rules and background on voluntary work. That's sheer stupidity.
7. Spartan Neil at the head. Unable to delegate, wanting to keep all decisions to himself and making terrible decisions for the future of his business. He made it, he sunk it. All the fault is his own.

Well, the result is here, anyway.

Kickstarter update:

http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update


Seems a lot like they've got the stuff produced, and it's sitting in a warehouse. So what happens to it?

Well that's a nut shot.

Basically everything I pledged for in the kickstarter was produced, it's sat in Spartan warehouse, but it's going to get sold to somebody else at some point.

This is why the general population has gone off of capitalism.

Dispite being £162 out of pocket, if some other company buys up the rights and put's the models back for sale I know I'd still end up buying some of the new stuff. I really want one of those giant iceberg carriers.

 Tamereth wrote:
Well that's a nut shot.

Basically everything I pledged for in the kickstarter was produced, it's sat in Spartan warehouse, but it's going to get sold to somebody else at some point.

This is why the general population has gone off of capitalism.

Despite being £162 out of pocket, if some other company buys up the rights and put's the models back for sale I know I'd still end up buying some of the new stuff. I really want one of those giant iceberg carriers.

That does blow. There's a small chance that if someone buys out Spartan's company/IP/products, that they may (just maybe) pledge to fulfill outstanding orders that existing customers had already paid for. Because if they don't they're basically guaranteeing that anyone in that predicament will never buy from them again (thereby gutting their potential customer base before they even get started).

So that's your only real hope...although you should definitely file a paypal or CC claim if you haven't done that already!

There's hope.

Once the official receivers are appointed, anyone that Spartan owed (or the controlling LLC more accurately in this case) will have the opportunity to register as a creditor.

The bad news is that a single consumer will be waaay down the food chain after banks, utility companies etc, the good news is that if a creditor is willing to accept on-hand inventory in lieu of cash, then they may just get to jump the queue.

It's a long shot, but it it isn't beyond the pale. Just make sure you've documentary evidence for what you're owed.

That does suck. I've been critical of Spartan in the past but I hope that their inability to ship product owed and in stock before their closure might not end up being what folks remember about them. Then again, Mierce in their previous UK online store pulled some much shadier purposeful moves (or Newwave/CMON in the US years earlier) prior to closing and it doesn't seem like anyone in their thread holds them accountable as long as they themselves continue to get their shinies from the current incarnation.

Yeah like Azreal said, the money to pay for shipping is an asset and creditors have a claim on it.

Legally I'm not sure where Kickstarter pledgers fit in. As I understand it they 'gave' the company money and the company will 'give' them rewards, they are neither customers nor investors.

Regardless there are banks and others with much larger claims than a gamer and his models. The best bet would be for them to band together and try to claim a seat at the table.

As the KS goods are pre-paid and paid for technically they might not default to the shops ownership; however as said they've got frozen accounts so no funding to ship and no access to the premises.

It's a kick in the teeth, but honestly one where Spartan really can't do anything legally at this stage. The other aspect is that banks such won't care about the community nor the community relations. They will want their return.
As such it will all hinge, most likely, on who buys up the assets. Remembering that anything not bought is likely to be dumped (that being the cheapest and most cost effective means to get rid of the items). So it could even be if no one buys up the old KS stock at a good enough price that it just gets destroyed.

Well, it looks like KS's aren't going to get delivered after all.

http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They do say in the post that there's alot of interest in their product lines however, so it's possible that the games will continue under a new brand.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yeah like Azreal said, the money to pay for shipping is an asset and creditors have a claim on it.

Legally I'm not sure where Kickstarter pledgers fit in. As I understand it they 'gave' the company money and the company will 'give' them rewards, they are neither customers nor investors.

Regardless there are banks and others with much larger claims than a gamer and his models. The best bet would be for them to band together and try to claim a seat at the table.

sadly the way transfer of ownership of goods works (here in the UK) means that even though you've paid for specific stuff and its been made for you doesn't mean its yours (even without the added complication of KS rewards not being straight purchaces)

this has been show repeatedly with all the furniture retailers who've gone bust owing customers 'made to order' sofas, chairs etc, the goods remain the property of the company until they are delivered (which is why mail order in the UK is pretty safe, if your stuff doesn't arrive or arrives broken its the company that has to replace it and claim on insurance, not you), until delivery customers are just unsecured creditors

I really hope somebody picks up the dystopian range and rules with the intention of carrying on selling the game as that's the best chance people have of getting their stuff as unless they deliver on the KS they've gutted their potential customer base and created a bunch of anti-ambassadors who'll bring the new owners down whenever the subjects raised

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
[I really hope somebody picks up the dystopian range and rules with the intention of carrying on selling the game as that's the best chance people have of getting their stuff as unless they deliver on the KS they've gutted their potential customer base and created a bunch of anti-ambassadors who'll bring the new owners down whenever the subjects raised

That seems unreasonable and unnecessarily vindictive. It would be a *good* thing for them to deliver on people's KS expectations, but they are hardly required to. If anything, this kind of talk could reduce the likelihood that someone picks it up.

Actually totally new owners could get away without the backlash a they are new owners. That said KS tend to attract your most affluent and die-hard supporters; to say nothing of those who buy in bulk for a club or group. So yes if they fail to deliver or even make amends for the KS in some form then they've got a huge amount of marketing to get over - that said hate could just blowback against Spartan instead of new rights owners - but it could still push many out of the game at a time when new IP owners would want customers on their side.


A huge amount of this depends on costs. How much its going to cost to buy the range; how much in setting up production facilities/taking over production; how much it would cost to ship the produced KS stuff - etc.... Those are going to be some pretty big numbers all around so anyone leaping in has to have skill and deep pockets for a good few years before they are likely to see a return on investment.

Also they've got to be skilled/have access to skilled production facilities in resin. Spartan made some fantastic resin sculpts (heck I've got a few bits where I can't even SEE a single mould line) so anyone taking over has to meet that standard to succeed with the range. The one worry is that someone new to market with money uses this to buy-in but then fails to deliver.

I can't speak for anyone else but if I were a backer or customer who lost out on goods owed (I'm not btw)... I'd only hold a grudge towards the owners and management of Spartan Games. If Neil especially or anyone else that was in any kind of decision making capacity to a lesser extent were involved in the new company that potentially bought the stock and/or the rights, I think it would be appropriate to hold them accountable for their own prior actions.

If some completely 100% unrelated group bought either, I don't think it's fair to saddle them with someone else's defaulted responsibilities. That of course doesn't exclude them offering an olive branch by extending for a limited time a distributor level discount for the exact goods to those screwed over by the previous deals.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Well, it looks like KS's aren't going to get delivered after all.

http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They do say in the post that there's alot of interest in their product lines however, so it's possible that the games will continue under a new brand.

God dammit.

2 bones down the drain :/

 Desubot wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Well, it looks like KS's aren't going to get delivered after all.

http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They do say in the post that there's alot of interest in their product lines however, so it's possible that the games will continue under a new brand.

God dammit.

2 bones down the drain :/

Two dollars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slang_terms_for_money

 warboss wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Well, it looks like KS's aren't going to get delivered after all.

http://www.spartangames.co.uk/spartan-games-update


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They do say in the post that there's alot of interest in their product lines however, so it's possible that the games will continue under a new brand.

God dammit.

2 bones down the drain :/

Two dollars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slang_terms_for_money

Heh sorry locally use bones as hundreds.

This is starting to appear to be less like a decision Spartan Games themselves made. It looks like it is more 'financial backers' or 'creditors' pulled the plug and essentially seized assets. That is at least how I read the statement about things are frozen and given that inquiries to asset requirement are being forwarded to 'someone else'.

I can understand being mad about lost money and lost orders on this, but can you really hold a grudge against Spartan? From what I understand they haven't chosen to not deliver, they literally can't due to the laws of their country and whatever creditor pulled the rug out from under them.

 ScarletRose wrote:
I can understand being mad about lost money and lost orders on this, but can you really hold a grudge against Spartan? From what I understand they haven't chosen to not deliver, they literally can't due to the laws of their country and whatever creditor pulled the rug out from under them.

I can

They chose to hold a TON of stuff because of "customized rule books"

even though a lot of people didnt order that.

 ScarletRose wrote:
I can understand being mad about lost money and lost orders on this, but can you really hold a grudge against Spartan? From what I understand they haven't chosen to not deliver, they literally can't due to the laws of their country and whatever creditor pulled the rug out from under them.

I didn't back the KS, so don't necessarily have a horse in this race, but I did want to comment on the later part.

Can I blame Spartan? Absolutely. They knew their financials, and even though it sounds like some of these things came "suddenly," it isn't like they've not been having issues for years now. Often when an "established" company resorts to Kickstarter to fund releases, it's usually a sign that they don't have the cash reserves/flow to keep the business going (certain exceptions with CMON, who use KS as a glorified preorder system, which I also detest). So while the asset-freeze isn't completely their fault, it is Spartan's actions (or, more accurately, lack thereof) that got them to this point in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel bad for folks who worked there as well as folks who were looking forward to getting this new stuff. But after buying into Firestorm: Planetfall and watching them essentially abandon that game to go after the shiny new Halo licensed games, then watching that likewise get ignored for the next shiny thing that caught their eye, and seeing that this was a pattern for them, I am honestly not surprised it went down this way.

No dog in this fight either but..

Can I blame Spartan? Absolutely. They knew their financials, and even though it sounds like some of these things came "suddenly," it isn't like they've not been having issues for years now. Often when an "established" company resorts to Kickstarter to fund releases, it's usually a sign that they don't have the cash reserves/flow to keep the business going (certain exceptions with CMON, who use KS as a glorified preorder system, which I also detest). So while the asset-freeze isn't completely their fault, it is Spartan's actions (or, more accurately, lack thereof) that got them to this point in the first place.

This is also a perfect summary of why anyone who backed the KS should have done so with caution and remembered that KS isn't a pre order platform and that your money is actually at risk if you back a project.

This isn't to diminish people's right to feel pissed off if they lost money, nor do I expect it to stop people blaming those associated with the company anyway, God knows I've seen people carry chips for years in similar situations, no reason why the fallout of this won't create a few more, but perhaps it's a timely reminder that throwing boat loads of cash at KS projects isn't always a safe thing to do.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No dog in this fight either but..

Can I blame Spartan? Absolutely. They knew their financials, and even though it sounds like some of these things came "suddenly," it isn't like they've not been having issues for years now. Often when an "established" company resorts to Kickstarter to fund releases, it's usually a sign that they don't have the cash reserves/flow to keep the business going (certain exceptions with CMON, who use KS as a glorified preorder system, which I also detest). So while the asset-freeze isn't completely their fault, it is Spartan's actions (or, more accurately, lack thereof) that got them to this point in the first place.

This is also a perfect summary of why anyone who backed the KS should have done so with caution and remembered that KS isn't a pre order platform and that your money is actually at risk if you back a project.

This isn't to diminish people's right to feel pissed off if they lost money, nor do I expect it to stop people blaming those associated with the company anyway, God knows I've seen people carry chips for years in similar situations, no reason why the fallout of this won't create a few more, but perhaps it's a timely reminder that throwing boat loads of cash at KS projects isn't always a safe thing to do.

Oh no absolutely correct. its definitely not a preorder and there are plenty of risks always.

and its definitely not the first successful kickstarter that didn't fulfill.

still angry about losing out on product.

Which is a perfectly valid and healthy response.

It will be less valid and healthy if you fly into a rage every time someone mentions anything that even rhymes with "Spartan Games" on a weekly basis for the next thirty years.

We've one or two "once bitten, forever bitter" indidivuals associated with different companies on the board who are beginning to resemble that picture, and I'm just trying to save a few more souls from that descent into the pit while there's time.

I have loads of Dystopian Wars stuff, most of it unpainted. I absolutely loved that game, but never had the time to paint much of it. So I kinda gave up on it last year.
I really hope this is not the end for Dystopian Wars. It had so many amazing and unique miniatures. If someone bought the IP and rights to all the miniatures, I guess they'd have the foundations for a pretty solid little business.

Also, should someone be interested in my Dystopian Wars stuff, drop me a PM. The odds of me ever getting back to it are now lower than ever and I really need more space.

 Azreal13 wrote:

We've one or two "once bitten, forever bitter" indidivuals associated with different companies on the board who are beginning to resemble that picture, and I'm just trying to save a few more souls from that descent into the pit while there's time.

The difference here is that Spartan Games no longer exists, so yes you could keep the rage for years, but it's unlikely when the source isn't there anymore.

So far, it's more about letting out the frustration before getting back to your senses.

I still have a ton of Firestorm Armada models. Rather than ditching it, I decided to complete the collection. I managed to grab a few models I didn't buy at the time, it's already a good thing. Then I will try to keep playing in 2.0, since the game system is still relevant with all the fleet lists pretty much balanced. Maybe we can work a few tweaks here and there with still interested players - I heard there is a facebook page about a project called "Fanstorm" somewhere.

That doesn't mean I will forget what Spartan Neil did.

 Valander wrote:
Can I blame Spartan? Absolutely.

One of the interesting things about how many small companies the game industry has is I think a lot of us figure we could have done better. A lot of people impacted by this figure that if Spartan had been more focused, hadn't gotten an expensive license for Halo, or had made some other key choices differently they wouldn't be in this situation.

I am in no way saying I don't do that myself at times.

I'm thinking the best bet would be for the product lines to get split up: Firestorm to one company, Dystopian to another, etc. Let them all evolve into their own unique things that are fun and playable.

As a business owner myself, it is far more likely that a company goes out of business than survives. Corvus Belli, Mantic, Warlord, and Games Workshop are miracles as opposed to the norm. Spartan had a good run lasting as long as they did.

Something else to consider. So much of what a game company does is not just creative or marketing. There is a lot of manufacturing, contracts, shipping, accounting, financing, warehousing, etc. There is so much that can go wrong and sink the business that has nothing to do with what we see as gamers.

It's a complete miracle Spartan survived half as long as it did, considering it's many failings were visible in public for the last 68 years at least. They hit their peak at Firestorm v2 and could not understand how to make good decisions afterwards.

So there selling Rebel Publishing(Spartan) in a number of parts.

1. The name and and associated logos.

2. The list of 15k customers

3. Assorted Spartan brand merchandise and gaming tables and miscellaneous.

4. The Dystopian Wars game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock.

5. The Dystopian Legions game, moulds and all other associated items including existing stock

6. The firestorm armarda range including planet fall and strike, moulds production files and all existing stock.

7. Spartan Scenics range and all existing stock.

If I am honest I really am not happy about item 2 but might put a cheeky offer on 6 and 7.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and the Halo licences were terminated as soon as the insolvancy firm we're brought in. I emailed MS marketing department to enquire if the licence was available and if ownership of the moulds and rules had reverted to them or had been destroyed.

Yeah, at number 2, but hopefully the rest of the items find their way to wargaming companies who can continue with them!