I was talking to a friend today and he told me about this guy he saw get kicked out of a FLGS because he was using 3d printed models. But then I started thinking: 3d printed models are pretty easy to spot because of the not quite right shape and the printing lines, but what about recasts? The sign of a recast model is double mild lines and imperfect details but once someone has cleaned up the model by removing extra mold lines and remodelled any missing details with greenstuff and then painted it all up, how can you tell it's a recast?

Anyone have any experience with finding a recast model that's been cleaned up and painted or is it an impossible task?

The better question is....why does it matter?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Done in one!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Curiosity? (I'm not a cat so that should be fine)

Usually, double mold lines. And that certain details are warped and distorted. In truth, the only way you can spot some of them is to put them beside the real thing, often before they're assembled and painted. Once properly modeled, assembled, and painted- it can be harder to tell.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Curiosity? (I'm not a cat so that should be fine)

Perhaps, but your avatar is Brave Sir Nigel, Who Bravely Ran Away. Curiosity might strike purely of spite.

Unless you're Games Workshop, it like as not won't matter. But probably the only way you'll ever be able to tell the difference is weight, and then only with some models. Older minis that you know should be metal will feel wrong. I find even painted, resin models feel a bit different to the touch, too, from either plastic or metal. But that might just be me trying to be super delicate with them. And some resin smells, even when dry - although sniffing your opponents models will get you all sorts of odd looks, and it might fade as models get older or painted and varnished.

Of course, occasionally something obvious will happen, like a Dreadknights leg snapping off mid-thigh. Something that happens with cheap, nasty resin but not plastic.

But a well-done recast will likely not get noticed. Only GW is harmed, though, and they've got a fair share of Karma backlog that it doesn't exactly make me weep bitter, broken tears.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Pretty much this.

On the tabletop at least.

I'd have, and have had, no qualms about purchasing what I knew or suspected to be recasts for my own use at a price commensurate with that fact.

People who purchase them and then try and push them on to other unsuspecting hobbyists as genuine models? I'll happily help anyone track them down and nail their genitalia to a wall (metaphorically speaking. Of course.)

In that context a better thread title would be "How do you spot a recast offered for sale?" But that's a topic already well covered for anyone who needs the info.

It's hard for me to take issue with recasters. I won't lie, if I did a DKoK army, a large portion of the DKoK things, short of the Infantry, would be recast.

It's not going to be welcome at our local GW store anyway (Though I'm still trying to figure out how GW can ban their own product), so I might as well use it.

I'd just issue a friendly "Dakka vet" warning to the thread that it's probably advisable to stay away from the broader topic of the rights and wrongs of recasting, it always gets heated and the thread always ends up locked as a result.

There's been no substantive change in IP law anywhere in the world likely to be relevant, to my knowledge, and people's own morality is unlikely to change significantly, so there not going to be any new arguments, just the same dance to the same inevitable conclusion.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I was talking to a friend today and he told me about this guy he saw get kicked out of a FLGS because he was using 3d printed models. But then I started thinking: 3d printed models are pretty easy to spot because of the not quite right shape and the printing lines, but what about recasts? The sign of a recast model is double mild lines and imperfect details but once someone has cleaned up the model by removing extra mold lines and remodelled any missing details with greenstuff and then painted it all up, how can you tell it's a recast?

Anyone have any experience with finding a recast model that's been cleaned up and painted or is it an impossible task?

You can't, the only possible way to spot one would if you knew for a fact that model was only released in metal, and it feels very light, or was only made in resin yet is clearly a metal piece. Trying to spot other materials is pretty much impossible unless you have a near encyclopedic knowledge of a company's casting process, materials used, and catalogue history. Many kits come in a variety of plastic hues, mold line quality, wear out over time, and have other unforseen variations pop up, like the landspeeder's infamous tendency to warp. 3D printed stuff is about the only thing I could buy someone recognizing, if only because 3d printing for the average person is still fairly crude. You might be able to pull off boxier models like a Rhino or drop pod but anything else would be glaringly obvious unless you had a seriously high quality printer, and at that point you could've bought a real army for cheaper.

Also, despite what people like to claim, recasting can absolutely be done to a high enough quality that you can't tell a difference between a "real" model and a "fake" one, especially someone who has a lot of patience and practice can do it pretty well. Odds are everyone on this forum who has played for at least a year has played against a few recasts and never even realised it, especially if you live in a larger city and played against someone with a lot of forgeworld models. Literally every single sign that people cite as tells (mold lines, bad detail, bubbles, gaps, etc.) can be found on legitimate models as well, aside from double mold lines, and even that's a maybe. Take a look online and you'll see many legitimate models with defects straight from their company that one could easily construe as recasts. You can also run into a weird situation where some recasts are consistently better quality than the original product, although this is usually the case of a recaster who got an early model in the mold's life and is using that as his master, while the company is using the mold till it falls apart. Usually you see that with forgeworld recasts on older kits and anything ever made in finecast. I've seen DKOK recasts for example that side by side with original FW models made the FW models look like recasts.

Trying to spot them and kick people out for them is basically just going to cause a "no true scotsman" situation and innocent people will get kicked out because they were unlucky enough to get an average Forgeworld or Finecast model with one of the many defects both companies are known for at times. Just play the game and don't worry about it. It really isn't worth your time to become the model police and make sure everyone has legal models. Especially if you've bought used models, odds are you own a few recasts as well and don't even realize it.


TL;DR What I'm trying to say is that it simply isn't worth bothering about. The only time knowing whether something is recast or not matters is when you're buying a used lot, and even there if looks good then it doesn't matter unless you're specifically collecting something with the intent to sell it later. Model quality among both official sellers and recasters can vary so wildly that you can see top knotch recasts and absolutely garbage quality originals and vice versa. And if you're playing against someone who uses a recast army, it doesn't really matter there either, as odds are you'll never be able to notice unless they told you anyways.

I know I've been sold knock offs two times.

The first model was quite noticible. It was a Terminator Chaplain. Since I already own 2 of them, it was pretty easy to spot the difference. Parts that are way too thin/flimsy, and it even had a bit of silicon left on the model from when the pulled it out of the mold. I threw the guy in the trash and cursed the heavens.

The second one was much less noticible. It was a FW Magos Dominus. The resin was the right color, and it even came in a forgeworld baggie. But once I got to work on the model, it was totally noticible. The flash was far excessive, and the resin was waaayyy harder than anything I've ever gotten from FW. It also released a strong chemical odor when I cut into it. It was bad enough that I felt the need to open the windows in my hobby area in the dead of winter and leave the room. Needless to say, this guy got tossed immediately.

The second model, however awful it may have been odor wise, would have been indistinguishable from the real deal after being painted.

I guess the point is, you can't really tell what's real or not on the tabletop unless you're familiar with the thing in question to begin with, and even then you may still have to know what to look for.

Smell it. Most knockoff resin reeks, and on some it can even be detectable after paint has been applied. (Especially on things where it's hard to get paint in every nook and cranny, or vehicles where there won't be paint applied to the inside, like most tanks.)

Check the heft compared to a version you know to be legit. Metal and plastic will have a different weight than resin, and even Forgeworld resin can feel different from the resins that some recasters use.

Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Obviously you get a hammer and chisel and cut off a chip of the model to be sent off for testing.

Would rather see painted recast then another unpainted model. For the people threatening to beak people's property quit hidding behind the Internet trying to be macho.

There are few 100% reliable ways to identify a recast, you can only do it on balance of evidence, like an eBay seller shifting dozens of the same unusual casting, and general things that seem suspect. Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines. Colour and appearance of metal varies in genuine figures. There are always dodgy casts of legit figures, sometimes quality control isn't great. FW resin stuff is variable in quality and colour, the models I've had more recently are nothing like the stuff I had ten years ago, so I wouldn't immediately hurl stuff in the bin because it doesn't look exactly like what you expected.

Once cleaned up and painted on the table, there's no way to know. Unless they were recast in the wrong material, but you'd have to know what was and wasn't done in finecast to be sure of that, as now there are legit metal figures with and without lead in them, and in resin. Abaddon the Despoiler is available in all three.

I'd be careful before throwing around accusations, assuming you are correct, they made have bought a recast in good faith.

If the model is painted, even poorly, it would be near impossible to spot a recast. Truthfully the recasters are getting better and better. Otherwise they would not be on eBay every time you open up to search for something.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Brilliant.

Beat me to recounting my own textbook recast test. If the model snaps when you drop the textbook on it, it's resin. If the model bends and then snaps, it's plastic.

All replacement models bought by the tester are recast.

beowulfhunter wrote:
Would rather see painted recast then another unpainted model. For the people threatening to beak people's property quit hidding behind the Internet trying to be macho.

Nobody's hidding, nobody's going to beak anything. These are what humans refer to as jokes.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Funny.
Yes, please, I want to know where those came from, too!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Pretty much this.



You can spot resin casts of models that were never released in resin. But other than that. Its all the same really. Just where the money went.

Just to add to the general consens here... on the tabletop, and when it's not your model and no one wants to sell them to you, it doesn't matter.

There are bad recasts, there a good recasts, there are recasts that are better than original FW stuff, there are even metal and plastic recasts.

A good recast is hard to distinguish from the real thing, once painted up it's impossible imo.

3d printed models: Depending on the printer and material, those strata lines can be cleaned up - and smoothed over. So that's more of a how-much-they-GAF-about the end product more than anything.

A lot of companies are now doing 3d printed masters, that get cleaned up and used to make the moulds from (for resin casting) for example.

Someone who KNOWS how to resin cast and with the right tools and materials, can create a duplicate that even the maker of the original cannot tell apart from their own work. This is done quite often in the SFX sector.

If you know it was ONLY EVER made in metal, but the model is clearly not so (weight is off by a lot indicating a resin copy), then it's probably a recast.
If the original was metal, and the copy was metal, then you aren't going to be able to tell without a metal analysis of the alloy used and a knowledge of which alloy the original is made from. GW themselves used several different types of WMAs over the years, leaded and lead-free.

If they have the capacity to recreate metals, then they have the tools needed to melt down older metal models and reuse them (I melt down the carcases of old metal models after I've finished carving them up for conversions, for example and reuse those ingots for my own projects.

Colour, texture, smell of the resin - NONE of these alone will be an indicator. FW has been guilty of badly mixed resin on multiple occasions (and in the old days, the resin's density and off-gassing has had it mistaken for Semtex). Polyurethane resins tend to be white - any other colour is because of an additive tint. Now the "wrong" kind of resin (FW use a PU resin, but there are also other types like acrylic resins, etc) will have a different smell and may be an indicator, but for the most part, one PU resin mixed properly will smell much like another PU resin and properly mixed is chemically stable.
If the original was a "grey" resin, but the copy is "clearish" then that's an example of a different kind of resin (the "wrong" one).

Double mould lines: GW has also been guilty of this. Inconclusive. GW QC on finecast was ***** in the early days.

Price: Also inconclusive. I've sold a genuine FW resin Valkyrie at way under cost just to be rid of it as the castings were an absolute abortion - and bought genuine FW for much less than it cost 2nd hand also.

The vendor has sold a large number of the exact same model: There's an indicator.
The vendor is in the former Soviet Union or in China: That's another indicator.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Brilliant

 techsoldaten wrote:
Easiest way to spot them is with a hairdryer. Place your opponent's suspected recast models under high heat for a couple minutes and see what happens. If your opponent goes nuts over the price, likely they were legitimate models. If your opponent is upset about the time spent painting, you got him. Ask where the recasts were purchased from and leave details in this thread.

Mind if it is Finecast though. They'll droop at the slightest glance of a hairdryer.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

Pretty much this.

On the tabletop at least.

I'd have, and have had, no qualms about purchasing what I knew or suspected to be recasts for my own use at a price commensurate with that fact.

People who purchase them and then try and push them on to other unsuspecting hobbyists as genuine models? I'll happily help anyone track them down and nail their genitalia to a wall (metaphorically speaking. Of course.)

In that context a better thread title would be "How do you spot a recast offered for sale?" But that's a topic already well covered for anyone who needs the info.

This may need to be covered more! I saw two recast marienburg landship recasts sell on ebay last week for £600+. I truly feel for the buyer paying this much for a $60 knockoff. regardless of the quality

What would you do about it if you found out that the army was made of recast models? Carry on playing, or end the game there and then?

 JamesY wrote:
What would you do about it if you found out that the army was made of recast models? Carry on playing, or end the game there and then?

Probably give them a thumbs up for going undetected so far. I don't care about where people get their models from (I generally try to keep mine official because I tend to go to FLGS and GW run tournaments), if someone can clean up and paint their recasts to a point at which they look like official models to close inspection then that shows a lot of commitment on their behalf.

This thread (as I said before) is just a queery made out of curiosity, I'm not gonna go on a witch hunt after this.

 JamesY wrote:
What would you do about it if you found out that the army was made of recast models? Carry on playing, or end the game there and then?

Carry on playing and then nothing. It's not your army.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
What would you do about it if you found out that the army was made of recast models? Carry on playing, or end the game there and then?

Carry on playing and then nothing. It's not your army.

100% Correct

That said, if you're playing in a retail store it still is a little bit of an issue. If you enjoy the service of open tables on a neutral space to play, then buy actual models from where you play to support that. Otherwise, blame yourself when that's no longer an option.

That said, if you pay for table use then everything's game.

On the other hand, if you're buying prints or recast of small or medium popularity games (even large games suffer) and are wondering why they've slowed in releases or support, there's your answer.

It's simple, just lick the model, per Hobbyist Urban myth if it's a recast you'll die, if you only get quite ill its genuine

Rubbish, I chew my models all the time and I'm fine!

I dont know how i would feel if some one picked up my model and started sniffing licking or chewing on them

1 easy way is if its originally a metal model with no fine cast option and its resin.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont know how i would feel if some one picked up my model and started sniffing licking or chewing on them

1 easy way is if its originally a metal model with no fine cast option and its resin.

Like said before, there are metal recasts of metal models.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont know how i would feel if some one picked up my model and started sniffing licking or chewing on them

1 easy way is if its originally a metal model with no fine cast option and its resin.

I was eBay hunting for a party of playable character models for Only War / Dark Heresy and found out I have a resin Tallarn trooper. They never came in finecast Same quality and detail; I just noticed he was light as a feather.

Support your local FLGS. If a guy has a tabletop quality or a stellar army and has a few recast - feth it let him. If it's painted and you buy local products - no one will care. I'd much rather see a well painted DKoK army thats recasted than an unpainted proxy soda can drop pod army. If that DKoK guy spends 30$ a week on paints, bases, and a tank here or there? He's fine in my book!

Personally in regards to recast

I really dont care to know or what to know just dont sit there and brag about it in a store because you clearly didnt purchase it there.

dont ask dont tell and dont be a donkeycave its not that hard to do... maybe not the last one

I have a buddy that purchases FW models and recasts them for himself; no reselling. For example, he'll buy one DKK squad from FW and recast it over and over until he has all the infantry he desires to have in his army. While I'm happy he doesn't resell anything, it's still a little off putting.

I draw the line when it comes to outright purchasing a recast model. It's disrespectful to bring that gak to the table.

Why?

How am I disrespecting you with how I chose to spend my money on models for my army?

Your models can't catch "recast" you know.

Do you feel similarly disrespected if your opponent uses non-GW (because that's all we're realistically talking about it) models that cost less than the official ones?

 oni wrote:
I draw the line when it comes to outright purchasing a recast model. It's disrespectful to bring that gak to the table.

To who, you?

You gonna be mad because I have some recast Arbites? Daemonettes? Any other variety of model that isn't being made any more?


Good, play with someone else. I'm sure the Authenticity Police are welcome in some corner, people who actually want to play the game and don't care about this sort of thing are far more common.

GW is a big company, ergo it is alright to steal from them, and make a profit on it. Got it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Why?

How am I disrespecting you with how I chose to spend my money on models for my army?

Your models can't catch "recast" you know.

Do you feel similarly disrespected if your opponent uses non-GW (because that's all we're realistically talking about it) models that cost less than the official ones?

I think it's disrespectful because, based upon the number of finecast (and even a couple FW) recasts I've seen, they found a higher quality version of the miniature than I did and didn't share.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 totalfailure wrote:
GW is a big company, ergo it is alright to steal from them, and make a profit on it. Got it.

Oh dear.

 totalfailure wrote:
GW is a big company, ergo it is alright to steal from them, and make a profit on it. Got it.

The irony of the username is delicious.

Recasting is not theft. The only reason to refer to it as such is to try and illicit some sort of emotional response to generate a reaction because the truth "recasting is IP infringement, which is a civil matter" doesn't sound edgy enough.

Either argue the facts and be logical or stay out of the discussion. When people start yelling "theft!" etc is traditionally when these threads take a turn for the locked.

Care to explain, why it's not a theft? Because taking a product, making copies of it and selling them for a profit, even though it's clearly stated that it's under protection of IP laws, does sound like a theft to me.

No, theft is taking somebody else's property without permission or paying for it.

Legitimately purchasing something and then making unlicensed copies of it is copyright infringement.

They're very different, and as such they're covered by a whole different set of laws and penalties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 Space Marines don't inexplicably disappear from somewhere in GW's warehouse every time some garage recaster makes himself a new Tactical Squad.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Do you feel similarly disrespected if your opponent uses non-GW (because that's all we're realistically talking about it) models that cost less than the official ones?

No, that absolutely isn't all we're talking about. There is a huge difference between using legal non-GW models in ways that GW didn't approve of and using illegal recasts of GW IP. That non-GW model may have some convenient similarities with something GW has made, perhaps even enough to be WYSIWYG, but the creator still made their own thing and sold it as a legitimate competing product. The recaster, on the other hand, is not making a legitimate competing product. They're ripping off all the work GW did, breaking the law in the process, and selling entirely on the fact that making an illegal recast of something with low-wage labor in China is cheaper than selling a legitimate product.

As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

I have a recasted Riptide that I bought from Ebay in the belief that it was the real and original thing.

As it is resin, the body is solid, not hollow like the GW plastic ones, so is heavier. Thats the only way I think recasts can be noticiable. (If they are of good quality of course)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Do you feel similarly disrespected if your opponent uses non-GW (because that's all we're realistically talking about it) models that cost less than the official ones?

No, that absolutely isn't all we're talking about. There is a huge difference between using legal non-GW models in ways that GW didn't approve of and using illegal recasts of GW IP. That non-GW model may have some convenient similarities with something GW has made, perhaps even enough to be WYSIWYG, but the creator still made their own thing and sold it as a legitimate competing product. The recaster, on the other hand, is not making a legitimate competing product. They're ripping off all the work GW did, breaking the law in the process, and selling entirely on the fact that making an illegal recast of something with low-wage labor in China is cheaper than selling a legitimate product.

Now tie that back into why any of that disrespects the opponent and you'll have a point? I'd take your argument more seriously if I hadn't seen you asking for advice on where to order the best casts of recast kits elsewhere online.

As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

Firstly, British, couldn't give a gak about what the FBI say.

Secondly, they call it "copyright theft" here too, I guarantee that's not what people get prosecuted with if they're taken to court. A quick review of actual convictions of torrent site operators, a reasonable analogy for recasters, shows that "felony copyright infringement" was what they were convicted on, and to be so were operating on a scale far beyond anything that any recaster are. Not theft.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
But I'm done with this thread, it's spiraling in the usual direction, and now Peregrine's here he'll do his damndest to make sure of it.

 Peregrine wrote:
As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

I just want to see the FBI Agent that gets tasked with raiding the local FLGS for knock-off Forge World bits.

The doors smash open, like being blown by a hurricane. Task Force Authentic charged in, weapons drawn- armed like a SWAT team and led by the brave agent Stribble. He grabs one particularly nervous, looking neckbeard, slamming him over the table. Miniatures clatter and fall, and the confounded Tau player wets himself with his hands raised, backing away into the wall.

"Well, well, well. If it isn't Death Korps of Krieg... or should I say... Death Korps of Kaifeng! We been lookin' for you a long time, scumbag" Agent Stribble says, clicking together the handcuffs behind the already-sweating, unwashed wargamer.

"I..I don't know what you're talkin' about man, it's not my stuff... honest! My cousin gave these models to me!" The shackled neckbeard sputters.

"Oh, really?" Agent Stribble asks, grabbing the guy by his unwashed hair. Stribble reached for one model, expertly painted. He placed it under his nose, rubbing it against his greying mustache. "Knockoff. Chinese. About six months old. Tell me another one, scumbag. Interpol is dying to get their hands on you and the rest of your little operation."

A short while later, one sobbing neckbeard was locked inside an unmarked SUV. Agents were taking statements from witnesses. "Stribble, I don't know how you do it", Field Agent Kruger asked, her blouse unbuttoned just enough to be provocative.

"Sixteen years working the beat. Lurking in the back of these stores- breathing in the scent of Nuln Oil, gluing my fingers together, rolling the dice. You become a part of it and you go by your instincts. I don't know, it just comes natural. Kruger, maybe... maybe I just hate Chinacasters, or maybe I just care about the law."

Cue dramatic saxaphone.

Credits roll.

 Azreal13 wrote:
...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 Space Marines don't inexplicably disappear from somewhere in GW's warehouse every time some garage recaster makes himself a new Tactical Squad.

Although something like that sounds like it would fit in perfectly with a Terry Pratchett (RIP) novel.

On topic, is looking for recasts something that people regularly do?
And since many people don't like you to touch their models (weight differs on some recasts) how would you ever even suspect, assuming a good casting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Obviously you get a hammer and chisel and cut off a chip of the model to be sent off for testing.

Now this seems reasonable.

 privateer4hire wrote:

On topic, is looking for recasts something that people regularly do?

Yes. Though where I am, the people (including myself) that are after recasts aren't looking for a Forge World Imperial Knight or something. It's usually models like the ones I mentioned before- I want something like the Arbites or the other Necromunda models, and a few of the old Fantasy Chaos Warriors from the early 1990's that were metal. These things have been discontinued for years and I'll gladly take even a cheap resin knock-off.

But to be fair, when I find someone selling them in good condition, I'll pay for those models, too.

When GW or FW sells them again, I will gladly give them my money.

 CragHack wrote:
Care to explain, why it's not a theft? Because taking a product, making copies of it and selling them for a profit, even though it's clearly stated that it's under protection of IP laws, does sound like a theft to me.

That's Forgery Not Theft

Guys chill out, this isn't the thread to get into the morality of recasting, all it was intended to be was how to potentially spot them.

We've had this argument like 50 times. We all know no one is changing sides on this and all it does is get the thread locked.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

/thread.


Honestly who cares if your opponent has recasted stuff? I've seen recasted stuff that is way better casted then legit FW stuff. I've seen some horribly casted stuff. As long as it's painted (painted well is even better ) I could care less.

As ChromeDog said way better then I ever could, unless you know it was bought from a re-caster first hand there is no way to know. All the stuff about smell, touch, feel is all bull gak people make up to fool themselves into thinking they "are in the know".

If the caster is reasonably skilled, you can't tell once they are painted just by looking at them. With a bit of experimentation you can even match the GW grey plastic colour.

Picking them up- some recasters are lazy and mold entire assemblies as a unit, so that Contemptor Dread will weigh more than a hollow plastic model, but if they bother to make good molds you won't be able to tell. I don't know how heavy a FW Spartan is, but I've seen a recast one and it was real heavy.

I quite like these threads and the various arguments for and against, I hope it doesn't get locked as we should be able to discuss this matter like adults. Whatever my point of view, I think the key is, if you purchase recasts then don't tell everyone. I seriously doubt people start checking on their opponents models unless...
a. they're on that side of the argument, it's theft and they check everything.
b. for some reason they already have an idea you're using recasts.
c. they're already sore over losing or potentially losing.
I know somebody in my group who makes some purchases from a Chinese recaster, when I play him I always see if I can spot any difference (I can't) so kudos to anyone who can.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
It's simple, just lick the model, per Hobbyist Urban myth if it's a recast you'll die, if you only get quite ill its genuine

Didn't GW try to use that in the Chapter House case?

I wouldn't buy a recast* - but I really don't care if somebody is using one.

Generally.... I would say that a good recast is very hard to spot.

The Auld Grump

* I can see the temptation for miniatures that are long out of production - but that has a lot more to do with availability than with saving money.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines.

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

 Peregrine wrote:
As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

I'll see your FBI info page, and raise you a US Supreme Court precedent.

Both are against the law, but copyright infringement is (usually) a civil crime, theft is virtually always a criminal one. It's a pretty damn big distinction.

Anyway OP this thread's gonna get locked imminently so feel free to google any previous recast thread if you want to see the other arguments in this oft-repeated discussion.

 Ouze wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines.

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

As someone who plays at clubs rather than wargaming stores I suppose I come from a different environment. I'm also more of a modeller than a gamer. When making stuff myself I'll make a mould of my own sculpts to save time. However Its easy enough to do the same for purchased models as well.

Primarily I'll do this with tank tracks. Its impossible to get a hold of certain components in 1/56th in plastic. Instead you need to make do with metal and resin, which are difficult to work with (besides the cost of the complete kits). Turn them into milliput and they're a lot easier to work with (i.e. in cutting up a few copies to extend their length, etc). The alternative's cutting up mesh files and 3D printing them, or completely scratch building (which I wind up doing more often than not).

Maybe that's not the full context here. I don't recast models wholesale, just the odd part (and usually just the fiddly bits) Making them isn't really looked down on as much as in the GW community I suppose. Most of my stuff's scratchbuilds anyway, so its not really noticeable. As an example the tracks on the below vehicle are longer than the original set (off of a Kettenkrad bike).



As for recasting outside of the GW community. Well I noticed some components on a Tank which I'd bought recently looked familiar. I checked another manufacturer and found the bits were exactly the same. I then go onto the major seller in the area's website and ...yup, the same again.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

Only other thing I can think of is that the mould degraded enough that a hairline formed in it that resembled another mould line.

I just got two boxes of Mordians from GW because they actually got them back in stock. A couple of them have outright bizarre artifacts in them. I'm guessing old moulds.

Personally, I've recast the turret part of a Razorback before, and I made a GS mould for a SoB backpack because I was missing one (back when I was actually considering Sisters). The Razorback one was literally just the round disc with the vertical support in it, and I use them on actual GW Rhinos. I wouldn't sell them though.

Sadly, that mould broke after the 6th or 7th one I made. Should have made a two-part mould, but it was the first try at it.

Yeah, mordians are just really old moulds.

They haven't made new moulds for them - and they date to mid 90s.

When it comes to remastering, it's not unheard of to make a "new" master from a 1st quality first pull should the original master be no longer available.

@Daedalus: You can get away with a single part mould for those pieces if you use a flexible enough rubber for it (in Australia, I'd use pinkysil,, which has enough detail retention for fingerprints but is flexible enough that you can pull that entire turret plate and vertical mount out as one piece.

With a less flexible rubber, yeah, 2 part is the way to go.

I personally use a very soft flexible silicone and it's great for doing 1 parters. Kinda spendy, and it degrades a little faster, but it's a really forgiving recipe and easy to use.

And these are the good posts for this thread. Thanks guys!

I've got an alumite putty mould kit that's been sitting in my craft box for a few months now. It's a binary putty mould; looks must softer than GS but harder than their standard issue silicone that you pour over a green. I've been saving it for some diamond plate bases I've been cooking up for the aforementioned Mordians though. Goal is to include slots for bases even for the HWS. I haven't quite wrapped my head around that yet, but I think it's a matter of time.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

No, it means they got lazy and didn't clean the mould lines off the master model before making a production mould from it.

Quote is broken.

I thought master models were "perfect" in regards to not having mold lines.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

No, it means they got lazy and didn't clean the mould lines off the master model before making a production mould from it.

Quote is broken.

I thought master models were "perfect" in regards to not having mold lines.

They are. You make your "master", then you make a "production master" from that. That 2nd gen model is used as the master model until it's worn out, and a new production master is then made.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Usually, double mold lines. And that certain details are warped and distorted. In truth, the only way you can spot some of them is to put them beside the real thing, often before they're assembled and painted. Once properly modeled, assembled, and painted- it can be harder to tell.

Not so.

The "Masters" that molds are made from are just pewter minis in the first place. You could use any pewter mini as the new master. It is the same with resin- they don't have to keep a green around forever, they just have to keep one of their resins casts to make more molds.

Ultimately, the process of illegally recasting minis can be exactly the same as legally casting the minis in the first place. If one caster does it at a significantly lower quality, then we can spot the lower quality- but that doesn't mean they're doing it illegally (I'm sure we've all had experiences with poor Finecast minis that were completely legit).


Tom Anders- the guy who runs Impact! miniatures-sold a few of his older Impact minis on ebay. He was once accused of recasting because there were some minor flaws (like some discoloration in the pewter). Of course, he was the guy who cast them in the first place, so he's possibly the only person not capable of pirating those minis.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines.

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

Sounds like a bone head ether lost a master or used casts to make a bigger spin cast mold and didnt bother to clean the first cast.

 Desubot wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines.

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

Sounds like a bone head ether lost a master or used casts to make a bigger spin cast mold and didnt bother to clean the first cast.

There isn't an essential difference between a production model and a production master. The production master is a 2nd gen mini (not the original green) and the idea is that it will eventually deteriorate from the strain put upon it by the process, and are then replaced by another run of production masters.


The screw up here is that he didn't clean off the mold lines from the one that he used to make the new cast (it isn't uncommon to use a master like this, but it is uncommon not to bother cleaning it very well before you do so). GW's quality control is not so great that they can't screw that up- and a recasting schlump can also take care to clean off the mold lines.

The only way to tell for sure that one is a fake is if it is cast in a material that the original was never cast in (like if a newer resin mini is cast in pewter, or a plastic is recast in resin). That's it! Mistakes happen, and they DO find their way into game stores. Often, you can get official replacements for minis that were cast terribly- but companies don't ask for the miscasts back (which means that the customer is free to use the screwed up minis- personally, I keep them for potential conversions).

Flawed casting in no way indicates whether or not your mini was cast by someone who owns the copyright to do so.

If you want spot a FW recast It's pretty easy tbh. If you see a model with really bad slippage through awkward places or baddly warped flat surfaces or even that just does not fit together with gaps everywhere then that is a 100% geniune FW model.

Most recasters have better QC and more pride in what they do than FW. I have made 5 FW orders this year, 4 of them included models with missing parts or just the wrong model entirely. 1 of them included them sending me the incorrect missing part. 3 of them had parts that defective they had to send replacements.

FW are abysmal with QC and picking and packing also there customer service has dropped off a cliff with them taking 3 months to ship the correct missing part. (I was missing a contemptor shin and they sent me the 2 track sections and sides of a spartan)

SeanDrake wrote:
If you want spot a FW recast It's pretty easy tbh. If you see a model with really bad slippage through awkward places or baddly warped flat surfaces or even that just does not fit together with gaps everywhere then that is a 100% geniune FW model.

Most recasters have better QC and more pride in what they do than FW. I have made 5 FW orders this year, 4 of them included models with missing parts or just the wrong model entirely. 1 of them included them sending me the incorrect missing part. 3 of them had parts that defective they had to send replacements.

FW are abysmal with QC and picking and packing also there customer service has dropped off a cliff with them taking 3 months to ship the correct missing part. (I was missing a contemptor shin and they sent me the 2 track sections and sides of a spartan)

Id say the caveat to this would be newer models.

I have Zero issues with new kits. but things that have worn out the molds will usually come really gaky.

This conversation is still going on?

I actually thought of an example where I identified a recast. It was with a Forgeworld Spartan. I saw someone had it on the tabletop and asked if I could pick it up. The real Spartan is pretty weighty, this one was extremely light.

The owner happily admitted purchasing it from AliBaba and that it was not Forgeworld. His opponent asked for the website so he could order one for his own army.

Getting back to one of the original questions, why would you want to know if there's a recast on the table? So you can figure out where to buy one yourself.

 techsoldaten wrote:
This conversation is still going on?

I actually thought of an example where I identified a recast. It was with a Forgeworld Spartan. I saw someone had it on the tabletop and asked if I could pick it up. The real Spartan is pretty weighty, this one was extremely light.

The owner happily admitted purchasing it from AliBaba and that it was not Forgeworld. His opponent asked for the website so he could order one for his own army.

Getting back to one of the original questions, why would you want to know if there's a recast on the table? So you can figure out where to buy one yourself.

The only people that truly care are those that are out for a witch hunt, those that feel like they have been cheated because some one else got a better deal, or those that want to know so they can them selves get recasts.

no one else would care.

SeanDrake wrote:
If you want spot a FW recast It's pretty easy tbh. If you see a model with really bad slippage through awkward places or baddly warped flat surfaces or even that just does not fit together with gaps everywhere then that is a 100% geniune FW model.

Most recasters have better QC and more pride in what they do than FW. I have made 5 FW orders this year, 4 of them included models with missing parts or just the wrong model entirely. 1 of them included them sending me the incorrect missing part. 3 of them had parts that defective they had to send replacements.

FW are abysmal with QC and picking and packing also there customer service has dropped off a cliff with them taking 3 months to ship the correct missing part. (I was missing a contemptor shin and they sent me the 2 track sections and sides of a spartan)

Unfortunately this is a sad truth.

As a commission painter Ive had a lot of bad FW kits sent my way. But few things compare to last year, when I ordered a Warlord titan for a charity raffle. FW literally sent half the parts and no instructions. : /

Yes, they corrected it immediately and sent the rest, but still...its a Warlord titan. Make sure you ship the whole thing.

I've actually been very impressed with the cast quality of everything I've ordered from FW the past couple years.

The only issue I had with an order was when a blister was packed underneath a stack of HH black books and got crushed, causing damage to the blister contents. But otherwise I feel like they're doing a better job with quality than they did several years ago. *shrug*

 gorgon wrote:
I've actually been very impressed with the cast quality of everything I've ordered from FW the past couple years.

The only issue I had with an order was when a blister was packed underneath a stack of HH black books and got crushed, causing damage to the blister contents. But otherwise I feel like they're doing a better job with quality than they did several years ago. *shrug*

I feel like their shipping went to gak since it seems they switched to the UPS instead of FEDEX

Just had a massive order that had crushed indexs models and exploded paint pots. the paint was loose rolling around and got on stuff :/

^ Its odd because on the phone they are beyond helpful and polite, as though they have grown accustomed to complaints.

Just this past year Ive had issues with a Ta'unar, Mastodon, Warlord, and the absolute worst kit Ive ever encountered from anyone, anywhere, a Dark Eldar Tantalus.

Anyway, to be on topic, the age of 3D printing is coming faster than many might think. My Micron Solus 3D cost about $3500 with all of the equipment, and it prints at an astounding resolution. Gone are the lines or 'steps', its a smooth master model. All that needs to happen is a breakout in .STL's on site like cgtrader and recasting will take a new turn in the coming years.

 gorgon wrote:
I've actually been very impressed with the cast quality of everything I've ordered from FW the past couple years.

The only issue I had with an order was when a blister was packed underneath a stack of HH black books and got crushed, causing damage to the blister contents. But otherwise I feel like they're doing a better job with quality than they did several years ago. *shrug*

A lot of it is down to the massive mental inertia a lot of the wargaming fraternity seem to possess (ie "it once was thus, and so thus it shall always be")

I've not had an issue with anything I've ordered from FW proper, and I've certainly had recast stuff which I'd have taken FW to task over if I'd received it from them, but I think there's been a gradual refinement in technique with FW over time that means it's a crap shoot based on what kit you're ordering, and/or if the model has undergone revisions in its lifetime (such as moving the tracks of the Spartan from separate to integrated into the side pods.)

SeanDrake wrote:
If you want spot a FW recast It's pretty easy tbh. If you see a model with really bad slippage through awkward places or baddly warped flat surfaces or even that just does not fit together with gaps everywhere then that is a 100% geniune FW model.

Most recasters have better QC and more pride in what they do than FW. I have made 5 FW orders this year, 4 of them included models with missing parts or just the wrong model entirely. 1 of them included them sending me the incorrect missing part. 3 of them had parts that defective they had to send replacements.

FW are abysmal with QC and picking and packing also there customer service has dropped off a cliff with them taking 3 months to ship the correct missing part. (I was missing a contemptor shin and they sent me the 2 track sections and sides of a spartan)

I suppose professional recasters would have to have high QC otherwise people might try to out them out of spite.

The only spite here is Sean's post.

Most recasters lob the kit into some silicone and make a cast straight out of the FW bag, you'll get as good a cast as they received.

Rumour has it that one chap used to actually clean and fix the models before casting, but he was shut down some time ago.

Equally, try and get an answer out of a recaster from any email that consists of anything beyond "give me these things, here's my money" and you've probably got worse than a 1 in 3 chance of a reply, less than that of actually receiving an answer to the question you asked after Google translate has got involved.

If you receive anything that's faulty beyond easily identifiable missing parts you're better off binning the model or working with it.

Buying recasts come with its own set of risks, challenges and drawbacks and trying to compare them favorably in terms of after sales to FW is just hyperbole. Which is the only language Sean seems to speak.

I could have gotten the same message without talking about Sean's spite. Given this is a 40k board, I consider talk of someone's spite to be weirdly complimentary, but just the same... let's not turn the thread into a flood of personal attacks.

So, wasn't Daniel Mandelbaum supposed to be recasting minis as part of Resin Forge? This is why I won't buy them, the shady characters involved.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I could have gotten the same message without talking about Sean's spite. Given this is a 40k board, I consider talk of someone's spite to be weirdly complimentary, but just the same... let's not turn the thread into a flood of personal attacks.

So, wasn't Daniel Mandelbaum supposed to be recasting minis as part of Resin Forge? This is why I won't buy them, the shady characters involved.

I remember that being one hell of a train wreck involving Resin forge selling "official bits" or something odd while also making an account here trying to defend them selves or something odd.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Most recasters lob the kit into some silicone and make a cast straight out of the FW bag, you'll get as good a cast as they received.

As good, or worse. I've seen some truly awful recasts, way worse than anything I've ever bought from FW directly. Really brittle resin with tons of broken details, massive mold slip, etc. Maybe that would be ok if you just want the cheapest way to use some overpowered FW thing for your tournament list, but they were trash if you want a real model to paint.

Pretty sure when I bought a Hell Dorado figure (Ashoka, the big crocodile man) from the deepest depths of Russia it was a recast, as when it came it was a resin figure and I'm pretty sure the real thing is metal, lol.

I don't feel bad though, as the resin is super tough, and the casting was beautiful. And it's a figure that I really wanted for an RPG character but the model line went out of print and I trolled online stores and Ebay for months, never finding a single copy, and the suspected recast was the first I finally saw.

If it's indeed a recast GW needs to hire the guy as a consultant, because as a metal figure cast into resin it's about 200% better than the Finecast process.

Easy - saw it in half and see if it's yellow or gray.

But seriously, if the other guy puts even a fair amount of effort into cleaning mold lines and filling holes and gaps, and a decent paint job, it's going to be pretty difficult to spot.

I like the smell test - recast resins do tend to have a strong odor......at first. After a month or so, they don't smell at all, that I can tell.

One more thought - look for spikes or sharp edges, or more accurately, the lack of them. If a model looks like it's lacking teeth, points, spikes, what have you, it would be a bit suspicious - those are the hardest bits to get right.

Azreal13 wrote:The only spite here is Sean's post.

Most recasters lob the kit into some silicone and make a cast straight out of the FW bag, you'll get as good a cast as they received.

Rumour has it that one chap used to actually clean and fix the models before casting, but he was shut down some time ago.

Equally, try and get an answer out of a recaster from any email that consists of anything beyond "give me these things, here's my money" and you've probably got worse than a 1 in 3 chance of a reply, less than that of actually receiving an answer to the question you asked after Google translate has got involved.

If you receive anything that's faulty beyond easily identifiable missing parts you're better off binning the model or working with it.

Buying recasts come with its own set of risks, challenges and drawbacks and trying to compare them favorably in terms of after sales to FW is just hyperbole. Which is the only language Sean seems to speak.

There are quite a bunch of recasters around. Some are pretty shady and operate such as you're describing. Others are highly professional, even if their English has still room for improvement.

Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Most recasters lob the kit into some silicone and make a cast straight out of the FW bag, you'll get as good a cast as they received.

As good, or worse. I've seen some truly awful recasts, way worse than anything I've ever bought from FW directly. Really brittle resin with tons of broken details, massive mold slip, etc. Maybe that would be ok if you just want the cheapest way to use some overpowered FW thing for your tournament list, but they were trash if you want a real model to paint.

Your anecdotical evidence means nothing.

No, no, I was talking about some of the most prominent and largest recasters with the most extensive catalogues. There's no implication of shady dealing, but to imply that the QC or after sales is on a par with FW when it simply isn't, for a variety of reasons, is just plain wrong.

Peregrine's evidence may be anecdotal, but one has to consider at what point the anecdotal evidence becomes so common as to simply be "evidence."

 Korinov wrote:
Your anecdotical evidence means nothing.

Then the anecdotal evidence of recasters that don't suck and sell you miscast trash is equally meaningless.

Does not matter much, it there army not yours.

And a good quality version from a China... Maybe not so easily.

I saw this image of a recast Primaris Dread, and thought it would be a useful visual aid towards the better end of the spectrum. It is not mine, and I don't know where it came from, I've merely saved it to my tablet and tagged it to this post to preserve anonymity.

Good luck telling this apart from the genuine article once assembled, cleaned and with a few layers of paint on it!

 Stevefamine wrote:

I was eBay hunting for a party of playable character models for Only War / Dark Heresy and found out I have a resin Tallarn trooper. They never came in finecast Same quality and detail; I just noticed he was light as a feather.

Depending on the model, FW put out quite a few Tallarn at one stage before HH marines took over everything.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
Your anecdotical evidence means nothing.

Then the anecdotal evidence of recasters that don't suck and sell you miscast trash is equally meaningless.

TRUST NO ONE
OBEY THE COMPUTER

AND KEEP YOUR LASER HANDY

The Auld Grump

I bought Coteaz off eBay sold as legit and got a terrible recast. I had to cut the head off and put on a new one. It looked ok after a ton of work but it didn't look like Coteaz. Just gave up and bought another one.

 crimsondave wrote:
I bought Coteaz off eBay sold as legit and got a terrible recast. I had to cut the head off and put on a new one. It looked ok after a ton of work but it didn't look like Coteaz. Just gave up and bought another one.

You sure it just wasn't the finecast one?

 mrhappyface wrote:
I was talking to a friend today and he told me about this guy he saw get kicked out of a FLGS because he was using 3d printed models. But then I started thinking: 3d printed models are pretty easy to spot because of the not quite right shape and the printing lines, but what about recasts? The sign of a recast model is double mild lines and imperfect details but once someone has cleaned up the model by removing extra mold lines and remodelled any missing details with greenstuff and then painted it all up, how can you tell it's a recast?

Anyone have any experience with finding a recast model that's been cleaned up and painted or is it an impossible task?

Meh. It doesn't bother me none. As long as they have an army and wanna have a go on the tabletop, I don't fret none. I won't be doing my best Sherlock Holmes impression on their minis.

I think the obvious answer is that the player will have a large scarlet 'R' on their chest.

Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

I just want to see the FBI Agent that gets tasked with raiding the local FLGS for knock-off Forge World bits.

The doors smash open, like being blown by a hurricane. Task Force Authentic charged in, weapons drawn- armed like a SWAT team and led by the brave agent Stribble. He grabs one particularly nervous, looking neckbeard, slamming him over the table. Miniatures clatter and fall, and the confounded Tau player wets himself with his hands raised, backing away into the wall.

"Well, well, well. If it isn't Death Korps of Krieg... or should I say... Death Korps of Kaifeng! We been lookin' for you a long time, scumbag" Agent Stribble says, clicking together the handcuffs behind the already-sweating, unwashed wargamer.

"I..I don't know what you're talkin' about man, it's not my stuff... honest! My cousin gave these models to me!" The shackled neckbeard sputters.

"Oh, really?" Agent Stribble asks, grabbing the guy by his unwashed hair. Stribble reached for one model, expertly painted. He placed it under his nose, rubbing it against his greying mustache. "Knockoff. Chinese. About six months old. Tell me another one, scumbag. Interpol is dying to get their hands on you and the rest of your little operation."

A short while later, one sobbing neckbeard was locked inside an unmarked SUV. Agents were taking statements from witnesses. "Stribble, I don't know how you do it", Field Agent Kruger asked, her blouse unbuttoned just enough to be provocative.

"Sixteen years working the beat. Lurking in the back of these stores- breathing in the scent of Nuln Oil, gluing my fingers together, rolling the dice. You become a part of it and you go by your instincts. I don't know, it just comes natural. Kruger, maybe... maybe I just hate Chinacasters, or maybe I just care about the law."

Cue dramatic saxaphone.

Credits roll.

Zach wrote:I think the obvious answer is that the player will have a large scarlet 'R' on their chest.

Both you guys have just won ONE FREE INTERNET each for these posts.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

exactly

I buy recast for everything big and expensive I want. My recaster does such a good job. I love it. I've bought a lot of FW and sometimes my recasts come in better condition and quality and it's only a fraction of the price.

I always admit to people who ask and every single time the person is only interested so they can maybe get some themselves.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
Your anecdotical evidence means nothing.

Then the anecdotal evidence of recasters that don't suck and sell you miscast trash is equally meaningless.

TRUST NO ONE
OBEY THE COMPUTER

AND KEEP YOUR LASER HANDY

The Auld Grump

That sounds amazingly ... paranoid

 Azreal13 wrote:
I saw this image of a recast Primaris Dread, and thought it would be a useful visual aid towards the better end of the spectrum. It is not mine, and I don't know where it came from, I've merely saved it to my tablet and tagged it to this post to preserve anonymity.

Good luck telling this apart from the genuine article once assembled, cleaned and with a few layers of paint on it!

Gotta say its impress they actually casted everything on the spure that way and for it to come out so well.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
Your anecdotical evidence means nothing.

Then the anecdotal evidence of recasters that don't suck and sell you miscast trash is equally meaningless.

TRUST NO ONE
OBEY THE COMPUTER

AND KEEP YOUR LASER HANDY

The Auld Grump

Now I have to dust off my Paranoia books and get a crew up for a game ..such fun ,,you die he dies she dies everybody dies..
This peice of equipment is okay for you to have for your Yellow security clearnace however the manual and how to use it are classified violet...

As to the Op I really cannot tell a recast from on original if its a good paint job and i would never ask not my army...

I got a Games Day, Golden Demon 2007 Orc Boss from ebay and was seriously disappointed it was a resin recast.

It smelt terrible when I drilled into it, but detail wise it is a match for the metal one that I managed to get the following week.

I would only purposely buy recasts if I was indifferent to whether or not the company that makes them remains in business.

I think one of my 1980s epic Leman Russ tanks is a recast - poor detail and soft metal, compared to the other vehicles I have. Still, it looks OK painted, and I've not been too bothered that I've tried to replace it. Some of my Zoats are also possibly recasts, but again, trying to get replacements is difficult and expensive. Even then, I'm not sure if "soft" detail is down to recasting or due to being eroded by rattling round in a box somewhere for thirty years.

Why would anyone want to go around 'spotting' recasts? I think "What you don't know won't hurt you!" applies here.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I saw this image of a recast Primaris Dread, and thought it would be a useful visual aid towards the better end of the spectrum.

That's really impressive IMO.

I've avoided recasts of plastic models (I hate resin almost as much as I hate metal... so why would I get something I can get in plastic in resin?), but a friend of mine recently got a recast Ghostkeel. It's quality was pretty much perfect, but it did not come on a sprue like that.

That's some real recasting right there.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I was talking to a friend today and he told me about this guy he saw get kicked out of a FLGS because he was using 3d printed models.

Never mind the recasts, why on earth would someone get kicked out of a shop for using 3D prints? Does that particular shop require that everything used there are bought there as well?

Pseudomonas wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I was talking to a friend today and he told me about this guy he saw get kicked out of a FLGS because he was using 3d printed models.

Never mind the recasts, why on earth would someone get kicked out of a shop for using 3D prints? Does that particular shop require that everything used there are bought there as well?

It was a 3d printed dreadnought, GW does not allow none GW 40k models in the stores.

I didn't think that a GW counted as a FLGS

 Azazelx wrote:

 Stevefamine wrote:

I was eBay hunting for a party of playable character models for Only War / Dark Heresy and found out I have a resin Tallarn trooper. They never came in finecast Same quality and detail; I just noticed he was light as a feather.

Depending on the model, FW put out quite a few Tallarn at one stage before HH marines took over everything.

No it's an ammo loader (which IS possible FW made actually)


After reading through this thread.... I just want to see PAINTED models. I don't care if you have recasted DKoK - I want to see a painted Guard army and have a great game of 40k.

Pseudomonas wrote:
I didn't think that a GW counted as a FLGS

Maybe a "F"LGS.

Recasts don't bother me, and now they are the only way to practically fill out some army lists.

For example: need anything Bretonnian then recasters are your friend, that and internet auctions.

 Azreal13 wrote:

beowulfhunter wrote:
Would rather see painted recast then another unpainted model. For the people threatening to beak people's property quit hidding behind the Internet trying to be macho.

Nobody's hidding, nobody's going to beak anything. These are what humans refer to as jokes.

I'm stone cold serious. I always test my opponents models by grabbing a random one, usually the army commander and melting it down in a lead melter. If I can then mold it and shoot it out of my old cap n ball revolver and it shoots true then it was pure lead and a fake as they haven't made pure lead minis in some time Else its ok.

Sure this takes awhile and the round scares Yankees (it was last used in the Yankee War of northern Aggression) but its the only way to be sure.

I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect. I guess I'm just an old fashioned person who respects IP.

Except the effects of piracy on any industry where it occurs are almost certainly exaggerated, most likely by those whose product is pirated.

You don't see Warner Bros or Gucci going down in flames any time soon any more than GW (who, incidentally, just posted record figures for their FYE and whose share price recently hit an all time high) simply because people are buying knock offs. Partially, I'm sure, due to a relatively small percentage of the customer base actually doing it but, more likely, a relatively large percentage of recast sales being for items that the customer would never have bought at RRP or is unable to obtain because they're now officially OOP.

There also seems to be a bit of a gentleman's agreement amongst recast buyers to leave the little guys alone, I once saw someone ask for Mierce recasts and the response from other users was almost unanimously "no, go buy originals." So the companies most vulnerable to recasting are also the least likely to be the victims (backed up by the solid commercial reasoning that the recasters aren't going to sell enough of a small producer's product to warrant the investment to be worth their time, so they don't bother.)

Recasting has been around since the 90s, of it was going to cause significant issues for the industry, it would have happened already.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I saw this image of a recast Primaris Dread, and thought it would be a useful visual aid towards the better end of the spectrum.

That's really impressive IMO.

I've avoided recasts of plastic models (I hate resin almost as much as I hate metal... so why would I get something I can get in plastic in resin?), but a friend of mine recently got a recast Ghostkeel. It's quality was pretty much perfect, but it did not come on a sprue like that.

That's some real recasting right there.

Plastic kit recasts are a little questionable for other reasons too. Often the price of recast plastic GW kits isn't sufficiently low to warrant the extra hassle of not ordering the real thing, plus the different physical properties of resin often means that you have elements of plastic kits that are simply too fragile in a different medium. In fact I think the addition of swirly gak™ to every centerpiece kit GW have produced over the last couple of years could, at least in part, be a deliberate attempt to make life difficult for recasters and people who buy them.

The contortions pirates go through to justify themselves...As long as they get what they feel they deserve, anything that gets stepped on is okay.

 totalfailure wrote:
The contortions pirates go through to justify themselves...As long as they get what they feel they deserve, anything that gets stepped on is okay.

Pseudomonas wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
The contortions pirates go through to justify themselves...As long as they get what they feel they deserve, anything that gets stepped on is okay.

Why the face palm? Hyperbole aside in terms of calling people "pirates" (yaaar!), there is truth to totalfailure's comment.

All of the justifications for buying recasts essentially comes down to what people are willing to pay for their models and the people who turn to recasters are unwilling to pay the market price for the models they desire. The justifications for turning to recasters are just obfuscating a desire to save cash.

If the models are "too expensive" (FW for example, or sometimes GW proper) then you hear the refrain of "if company X priced their models fairly I'd buy from them, but they are greedy so feth them!"

If the item is OOP and the buyer doesn't want to pay the price for a hard-to-find model they turn to a recaster, often with the refrain of "The model is OOP and I don't want to pay collectors prices to make an army, besides if company X would simply re-release this model I'd buy from them, so feth them!" It is even worse if the company is no longer around because the excuse becomes "Well who am I hurting the model is OOP and the company is defunct."

These justifications ignore the morality issue of IP abuse, as well as scarcity in the collector's market, in order to allow the buyer to acquire what they want.

No matter how you spin it, the decision to acquire recast models stems from a desire on the buyer's part to bypass the normal retail channels and get a discount, or artificially inflate the numbers of rare, OOP or hard-to-find models in order to create a quantity that is desirable for the buyer.

What of it?

People buying recasts aren't committing any piracy. Supporting it? Sure, but they're not committing it. In fact as far as I've been able to ascertain, on the level a typical hobbyist would be doing it, someone buying recasts isn't themselves committing an offense and even if they were the likelihood of being singled out for prosecution would be tiny and the further likelihood of conviction even smaller.

So essentially it then becomes a moral decision, and that's something they only need justify to themself, not to some random on the internet who has a different line in the sand, but very likely has some other dissonant line of thinking going on elsewhere in their lives of equal or greater degree.

Hi!
I'm a trader.

Generally you can tell a fake by chemical tests*; but if it's painted and looks good, who cares?
(*Solvents are present in cheaper resins, lead/tin/etc may be present in re cast metals in proportions different to the original. Not that easy to tell though, in all honesty)

I've had quite a lot of fake products come through my grubby mitts over the years, and I can honestly say that some of the fakes were better quality than the originals!

As a separate aside, if anyone would like to pirate and re-cast any of my works, go right ahead

(Not the Zinge ones though. They might not like it...!)

 Azreal13 wrote:
What of it?

Nothing, but I would prefer if people would be honest with their motivations instead of trying to hide them with BS. Just say, "I'm cheap and don't want to pay for an army I feel I deserve so I turn to recasting to lower costs." Just own it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
So essentially it then becomes a moral decision, and that's something they only need justify to themself, not to some random on the internet who has a different line in the sand, but very likely has some other dissonant line of thinking going on elsewhere in their lives of equal or greater degree.

Your post reads as defensive, which I don't know if that is intentional or not. But you also throw in a great example of BS justification at the end, which is why I am quoting the statement above.

Repeat, "I just want an army cheaper than it normally costs." Don't go around assuming that because other humans have foibles it justifies a morally dubious decision to buy pirated toy soldiers. Just own your gak.


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 B Stores wrote:
As a separate aside, if anyone would like to pirate and re-cast any of my works, go right ahead

Legit question. Why?

Why would you want people re-casting your work and cutting you out of the revenue stream?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
What of it?

Nothing, but I would prefer if people would be honest with their motivations instead of trying to hide them with BS. Just say, "I'm cheap and don't want to pay for an army I feel I deserve so I turn to recasting to lower costs." Just own it.

Ah, that's shame. By (I suspect, very deliberately) using "cheap" in lieu of any number of other less inflammatory descriptors, you've really ruined your chances of having sensible debate.

Besides, nobody has to "own it" because they're not beholden to you or anyone else, like I said.

 Azreal13 wrote:
So essentially it then becomes a moral decision, and that's something they only need justify to themself, not to some random on the internet who has a different line in the sand, but very likely has some other dissonant line of thinking going on elsewhere in their lives of equal or greater degree.

Your post reads as defensive, which I don't know if that is intentional or not. But you also throw in a great example of BS justification at the end, which is why I am quoting the statement above.

Repeat, "I just want an army cheaper than it normally costs." Don't go around assuming that because other humans have foibles it justifies a morally dubious decision to buy pirated toy soldiers. Just own your gak.

I wasn't being defensive so much as defending what would be fairly obviously my position on the argument unless you'd jumped into the thread without reading it. I wasn't using other people's foibles as a justification for buying recasts, I don't need to justify it, I was merely outlining how people who are critical of those who do are likely fairly hypocritical because it's probable they're doing something elsewhere in their life that's equally morally "grey." It doesn't have to justify my behavior so much as cut the legs off of the high horse of anyone who seeks to somehow assume some moral authority over it.

But this discussion was over at "cheap" so I think we'll leave it there.

Do you know what killed videogame piracy? What killed music and movies piracy? Not anti piracy laws or technology, not DRM or other things that hurted more the actual legal buyers than the pirated ones.

Steam killed it. Spotify killed it. HBO, Netflix, killed piracy.

Offer people a good service at a good price, and the piracy problem will just disappear, because 95% of the people is willing to pay an appropiate price if that way they can have a nice product with a nice service and evade all the moral issues of buying "pirated" products, plus, all of the problems with that kind of product. This is not about "Moral" or "Inmoral", just stop that gak. People don't work based in moral but in money.

Why should I spend hours looking for a subtitled version of Game of Thrones in a very very low quality when I can pay just 8€ a month and have hundreds of TV series presented for me in a very, very comfortable way.

Recast will die, the day that FW and GW lower their prices to a point that isn't profitable anymore and people isn't willing to have all the troubles from buying a recast just to save 5-7% of the total price. Maybe 1 in every 1000 will do that, but very few.

You can be all in the high moral horses that you want, but this is just a economic thing. In both ends. It isn't like GW and other business don't do shavy and very gray moral practices. Theres no hell, theres no heaven, we are all in earth to live by our principles.
I'll feed a street kitten for every recast that I bought so I can recover my nice karma, I promise.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
What of it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 B Stores wrote:
As a separate aside, if anyone would like to pirate and re-cast any of my works, go right ahead

Legit question. Why?

Why would you want people re-casting your work and cutting you out of the revenue stream?

A variety of reasons!

The number one reason from my point of view would probably be publicity- the more of my work that's out there, the more likely people are to see it and want to purchase more.

The revenue from the cast miniatures is pretty low on a per-mini basis. I make more money out of prototypes, commissions and so forth (see above) and I feel it's worth it in the long run.

As anyone who wants to re cast my miniatures would have to purchase and cast the pieces themselves, they'd be putting in a fair bit of their own money. If it's for personal use, it doesn't bother me. If they can make better casts than the ones I can currently acquire, I'd be interested to see them!
And if they can produce them cheaper, I'd probably be even more interested

Casting can require a certain amount of time, skill and resources to get a quality result, so I'm always on the lookout for a good casting company

I hope that made some kind of sense

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Nothing, but I would prefer if people would be honest with their motivations instead of trying to hide them with BS. Just say, "I'm cheap and don't want to pay for an army I feel I deserve so I turn to recasting to lower costs." Just own it.

There have been other valid reasons in the past. The recast sites I've seen almost always accept paypal, which means that you didn't need a credit card. Wasn't a factor for me, but I could see people without a credit card (for whatever reason) turning to that before FW joined the 21st century.

Alternatively, it could be a discontinued model. Kinda hard to buy the legit one when they're not selling it.

Alternatively still, they might just be trying to save money. That really confuses me what with that we, for some reason, point at a corporation whenever they do something even vaguely shady, "bad", or anti-employee and say, "oh well, they have to do whatever they did because they HAVE to. They have an obligation to increase profit margins however they can", but then I see here that when we're talking about individuals, there becomes a function of morality present in the conversation. There are then values like "right" and "wrong" that are assigned to actions. I genuinely don't understand the difference. That could actually make me morally bereft or something. I don't know. Honestly, it's kinda probable, as I don't think I'd be that bothered by it even if someone did say I was.

Legit question. Why?

Why would you want people re-casting your work and cutting you out of the revenue stream?

I can't speak for him, but I recall at the height of the Napster hullabaloo, there was a small time rap group that said that they actually loved people pirating their stuff because it got them extra awareness as the label wasn't actively doing anything to help promote them. Sadly, I can't recall the time. Also the ska band Streetlight Manifesto got so pissed off at their record company that they boycotted themselves and asked their fans to not buy their album, hinting that they should go pirate it instead. Something along the lines of "we want you to hear it, but we don't care if we make any money off it, because Victory Records will probably just keep it all anyway."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it only really cuts you out of the revenue stream of the sales you would have made if someone had bought the product from you. But if it's unavailable due to payment restrictions, unavailable due to not being sold, or unavailable due to being more highly priced than a customer is able/willing to purchase it for, then the customer would never have bought it to begin with, so "lost sales" are sort of a magic unicorn number anyway.

The above post is a little more eloquent than what I managed

 Galas wrote:
Do you know what killed videogame piracy? What killed music and movies piracy? Not anti piracy laws or technology, not DRM or other things that hurted more the actual legal buyers than the pirated ones.

Steam killed it. Spotify killed it. HBO, Netflix, killed piracy.

The ability to watch Game of Thrones whenever I want wherever I want stopped me from needing to download it to watch it. The fact that I can get any game on steam means I haven't had a pirate game since... gak... the early 2000's maybe?

That and any shows I do download I buy the Blu-Rays of anyway. *shrugs*

Galas is 100% correct. Come up with a service that is better than piracy, and it will flourish.

As it stands now I have bought pirated Kingdom Death, and would buy pirated GW, but not Reaper. Why? Because as it stands they are affordable and in my price range. If they get more expensive I might have to rethink things.

Well, not going to lie. I wish I could have found somebody that recasts Tallarn Roughriders... getting the 20 I needed unassembled and unpainted was one heck of an expensive ordeal.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Do you know what killed videogame piracy? What killed music and movies piracy? Not anti piracy laws or technology, not DRM or other things that hurted more the actual legal buyers than the pirated ones.

Steam killed it. Spotify killed it. HBO, Netflix, killed piracy.

The ability to watch Game of Thrones whenever I want wherever I want stopped me from needing to download it to watch it. The fact that I can get any game on steam means I haven't had a pirate game since... gak... the early 2000's maybe?

That and any shows I do download I buy the Blu-Rays of anyway. *shrugs*

Galas is 100% correct. Come up with a service that is better than piracy, and it will flourish.

Absolutely.
Man, we traded pirated copies of games and music back in school. These days, I only go through the hassle of pirating a game if it is heavily cut in Germany, e.g. Wolfenstein, CoD4, etc.
Everything else? Nah, I wait for the next Steam/GOG/Humblebundle/whatever sale if I'm unwilling to pay full price.

Every model available in a SC! box is not worth buying a recast of anymore. For the same or slightly higher price, you get plastic instead of resin. That's a win for GW.

I'm totally willing to pay reasonable prices, but some of GW/FW prices are just fethed.
A group of 3 Fimirs has the same price as the single model unit champion (for said unit) of Fimirs? Come on now.

OOP models are even worse. For some it might be a collector thing, others want a cool looking model. Marienburg Landship = you want it for your collection? Pay a horrendous price. Or the recast for 60 $. Chaos War Mammoth? I've seen it handled on Ebay for 1k €! Recast? 150 $.
This is no longer about hurting your hobby, it doesn't hurt GW/FW any longer. It's hurting the second hand market (if at all, because it would mean I would ever pay the collector prices).

 Galas wrote:
Do you know what killed videogame piracy? What killed music and movies piracy? Not anti piracy laws or technology, not DRM or other things that hurted more the actual legal buyers than the pirated ones.

Steam killed it. Spotify killed it. HBO, Netflix, killed piracy.

Offer people a good service at a good price, and the piracy problem will just disappear, because 95% of the people is willing to pay an appropiate price if that way they can have a nice product with a nice service and evade all the moral issues of buying "pirated" products, plus, all of the problems with that kind of product. This is not about "Moral" or "Inmoral", just stop that gak. People don't work based in moral but in money.

Why should I spend hours looking for a subtitled version of Game of Thrones in a very very low quality when I can pay just 8€ a month and have hundreds of TV series presented for me in a very, very comfortable way.

Recast will die, the day that FW and GW lower their prices to a point that isn't profitable anymore and people isn't willing to have all the troubles from buying a recast just to save 5-7% of the total price. Maybe 1 in every 1000 will do that, but very few.

You can be all in the high moral horses that you want, but this is just a economic thing. In both ends. It isn't like GW and other business don't do shavy and very gray moral practices. Theres no hell, theres no heaven, we are all in earth to live by our principles.
I'll feed a street kitten for every recast that I bought so I can recover my nice karma, I promise.

Anecdotal of course, But in my college years I was a pirate SO bad when it came to shows, I pirated everything.
Now, I have a job.....so I bought Netflix.....I bought Crunchy Roll, only reason I still Pirate GoT is because of how many hoops I have to go through to sign up.
And I can watch it all on my Ps4. Give people a simple, effective way to search for a show with a good service and you stop piracy. If free shipping was easier from Fw I would do it, if I could get it from the Game Store I would. if I didnt get the "California Tax" I would. as of right now, me going onto ebay, clicking "Buy now with Paypal" with free shipping is easier.

I can only speak for myself, and here are a few of my thoughts.

I started this hobby in 1997. Stopped around 2002 due to other commitments, cost and some personal issues that took the enjoyment out of modeling. I started back this year when I joined DakkaDakka. A break of 15 years.

Getting back into IG (my army before my hiatus) and the sheer amount of kits/models OOP that I want is huge. While I could buy them from eBay, I've got limited funds and the mark ups on some kits are beyond stupid. Add in that I would NEVER strip a well painted model means I will use a recaster. GW stopped selling them, so I wouldn't be able to pay them for the model anyway.
Secondly, cost. When I say limited funds, I mean REALLY TIGHTLY LIMITED. I would love a FW model as a centre piece. But, the cheapest FW model I want would take me THREE MONTHS to save up for. If a remaster can save me even 30%, I'd take it. Because some FW prices are mind boggling out of touch. Sensible prices would attract far more attention than pretty miniatures.

Galas is right - correct service at correct price = decline of recasting services.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I can only speak for myself, and here are a few of my thoughts.

I started this hobby in 1997. Stopped around 2002 due to other commitments, cost and some personal issues that took the enjoyment out of modeling. I started back this year when I joined DakkaDakka. A break of 15 years.

Getting back into IG (my army before my hiatus) and the sheer amount of kits/models OOP that I want is huge. While I could buy them from eBay, I've got limited funds and the mark ups on some kits are beyond stupid. Add in that I would NEVER strip a well painted model means I will use a recaster. GW stopped selling them, so I wouldn't be able to pay them for the model anyway.
Secondly, cost. When I say limited funds, I mean REALLY TIGHTLY LIMITED. I would love a FW model as a centre piece. But, the cheapest FW model I want would take me THREE MONTHS to save up for. If a remaster can save me even 30%, I'd take it. Because some FW prices are mind boggling out of touch. Sensible prices would attract far more attention than pretty miniatures.

Galas is right - correct service at correct price = decline of recasting services.

So, we're back to the overwhelming sense of entitlement pirates seem to have in abundance. I want it, and don't want to pay the price cause it's just so unfair that someone else decides what their work is worth. The arrogance is astounding. Your options are buy it, or don't if you don't think the price is good. Not I like it, but the price is too high, so I'll just steal it by paying someone else to rip it off. We're not talking a necessity of life here to you - you do not need any toy soldiers to live. Tell the guy pouring resin at Forge World to feed his family piracy is okay because they're a big company, and they won't miss it.

It's literally pennies worth of resin. Selling even two models at their current price is enough to pay for the sculptors time unless they are running a money laundering racket. But Forge World have cottoned on that this hobby has a rabid and less than intelligent fanbase (on average) who are willing to pay out the nose for said pennies of resin.

Please can some Mod lock this up, it's just turned into the usual pattern of every recast thread before

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Please can some Mod lock this up, it's just turned into the usual pattern of every recast thread before

Seconded

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect. I guess I'm just an old fashioned person who respects IP.

You can't be that old fashioned on it. I'm literally spending my afternoon right now researching tussles back in the mid-nineteenth century over ip protection, and you'd be surprised how many famous British engineers and inventors (Lord Armstrong, or Isambard Brunel, for example), thought the entire thing was a load of hokey which stifled creativity, business, and enabled all kinds of morally undesirable activities (patent squatting and monopolies for example). It's only the last hundred or so years in the Western world specifically that the 'morality' of it has come to be seen as undisputable. Go to China, and most people there would laugh at you for insisting it was theft or even morally reprehensible.

More on track to the OP: There is virtually nothing that you can do to spot a recast so long as it is made in the same material as the original. A really good recaster often makes better quality product than that distributed by the IP owner. I've had people I've sold legit forgeworld to on ebay complain that it has to be from China due to mold lines or suchlike and try to return it, only to be somewhat embarassedly put off by my screencapping the actual order number and baggie it came in.

What I wonder is how many people who bought recast FW minis ended up buying attendant forces in plastic because they were excited to finish the army they started. I've known a lot of gamers who lost interest after a single box of marines or Orks, but who later went on to huge projects when they had a show stopping centerpiece to keep them motivated. I'm not saying buying recasts is a moral right, but I wonder if cheap access to the priciest unit in an army actually keeps a portion of the customer base engaged and spending far longer than they would without that access.


For the record, I have never bought a recast, although I did acquire two as incidentals in large trades.

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect. I guess I'm just an old fashioned person who respects IP.

You can't be that old fashioned on it. I'm literally spending my afternoon right now researching tussles back in the mid-nineteenth century over ip protection, and you'd be surprised how many famous British engineers and inventors (Lord Armstrong, or Isambard Brunel, for example), thought the entire thing was a load of hokey which stifled creativity, business, and enabled all kinds of morally undesirable activities (patent squatting and monopolies for example). It's only the last hundred or so years in the Western world specifically that the 'morality' of it has come to be seen as undisputable. Go to China, and most people there would laugh at you for insisting it was theft or even morally reprehensible.

In that case, would you have a particular problem if Maelstroms Edge for instance was being recasted and sold for pennies in comparison to the original?

Medge sells for prices low enough that recasting is not likely to be profitable. However, if someone did find a way to make a profit on MEdge products for mere pennies, I expect that MEdge would hire that person to bring their production costs down. They seem to be price conscious as a company.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Recasting has been around since the 90s, of it was going to cause significant issues for the industry, it would have happened already .

In the 90's you didn't have recast Warlord Titans. Recasts where also often very poor quality.

What it would be like to have yourr IP recast, and undercut just because people desire the product?

BobtheInquisitor wrote:What I wonder is how many people who bought recast FW minis ended up buying attendant forces in plastic because they were excited to finish the army they started. I've known a lot of gamers who lost interest after a single box of marines or Orks, but who later went on to huge projects when they had a show stopping centerpiece to keep them motivated. I'm not saying buying recasts is a moral right, but I wonder if cheap access to the priciest unit in an army actually keeps a portion of the customer base engaged and spending far longer than they would without that access.


For the record, I have never bought a recast, although I did acquire two as incidentals in large trades.

I certainly resemble that comment. One of the unexpected results of working with recast models is I've found myself much more willing to take risks and experiment on them than I ever would've with an original. As a consequence I've spent more in genuine bits, kits, third party mods and modeling materials than I ever would I find I'd bought the kit at full price. The main recasters also offer bits that rival GW of old (well, not quite, but it certainly feels that way nowadays) meaning I can model units as I envision them.

Which is not to say that the savings don't inherently act as a significant draw, I'm firmly in the camp of simply couldn't buy full price even if I felt I could justify it (which is something that varies on a model by model basis) but I'm not sure that the freedom offered by the affordability and accessibility of bits and kits hasn't, over time, become as or more significant. And while I'm maybe spending cash on recast models, you're dead right that it's also generating sales in other legitimate parts of the hobby from me as a consequence.

Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect. I guess I'm just an old fashioned person who respects IP.

You can't be that old fashioned on it. I'm literally spending my afternoon right now researching tussles back in the mid-nineteenth century over ip protection, and you'd be surprised how many famous British engineers and inventors (Lord Armstrong, or Isambard Brunel, for example), thought the entire thing was a load of hokey which stifled creativity, business, and enabled all kinds of morally undesirable activities (patent squatting and monopolies for example). It's only the last hundred or so years in the Western world specifically that the 'morality' of it has come to be seen as undisputable. Go to China, and most people there would laugh at you for insisting it was theft or even morally reprehensible.

In that case, would you have a particular problem if Maelstroms Edge for instance was being recasted and sold for pennies in comparison to the original?

That's an interesting, but purely hypothetical, question, as pretty much everyone I've encountered feels it's a dick move to do that to smaller manufacturers. Neither is there likely sufficient demand for those models to warrant the time and money for the recaster to add them to their inventories. GW and certain boutique manufacturers fall in the crosshairs because, I assume, there's sufficient disparity between RRP and perceived value (or availability) that a vacuum formed which the supply of recasts has expended to fill. GW's PR problems over the last few years have undoubtedly fed that as well. As many have already said, if your consumers feel the price you're asking is reasonable and aren't frustrated because they can't buy it the evidence suggests piracy goes away. Companies who are maintaining a good relationship with their consumers and are offering their product at a price most feel is reasonable have little to fear from piracy in this or any other industry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedSarge wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Recasting has been around since the 90s, of it was going to cause significant issues for the industry, it would have happened already .

In the 90's you didn't have recast Warlord Titans. Recasts where also often very poor quality.

So were a lot of legitimate models! But it would have been odd to have recast Warlords 20 years before they were made. Not sure what your point isn't with that, of course models that didn't exist weren't being recast?

What it would be like to have yourr IP recast, and undercut just because people desire the product?

If I was posting record profits, had returned to growth in a very short period of time after multiple periods of contraction and had my share price at an all time high, I'm pretty sure I'd get to sleep most nights.

@Azreal13 : What I'm saying is the recasters, particularly in China. There exists channels that allow legitimate models to be sent in, SCANNED and recast with un-erring accuracy, dispatched in copy cat plastic bags with disturbing quantity. This is full scale piracy outside of a factory as a side or direct income. This 'health resin used is toxic. But, I can see you dislike GW as a company and there subsidiaries, so I cannot sway your opinion that there products are not worth direct purchases.

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13 : What I'm saying is the recasters, particularly in China. There exists channels that allow legitimate models to be sent in, SCANNED and recast with un-erring accuracy, dispatched in copy cat plastic bags with disturbing quantity. This is full scale piracy outside of a factory as a side or direct income. This 'health resin used is toxic. But, I can see you dislike GW as a company and there subsidiaries, so I cannot sway your opinion that there products are not worth direct purchases.

I'm not sure I understood all that; is there any chance you could re-phrase?
(not being sarcastic or anything- I'm actually interested in peoples views on this issue)

I've been meaning to do an in depth exposure on recasting for some time on my blog. I've been away from the hobby for some time now and as a result my priorities have changed. Be sure the recasting of expensive models is s lucrative and persistent business

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13 : What I'm saying is the recasters, particularly in China. There exists channels that allow legitimate models to be sent in, SCANNED and recast with un-erring accuracy, dispatched in copy cat plastic bags with disturbing quantity. This is full scale piracy outside of a factory as a side or direct income. This 'health resin used is toxic. But, I can see you dislike GW as a company and there subsidiaries, so I cannot sway your opinion that there products are not worth direct purchases.

No, it would be silly for me to dislike a company, just as it would be daft for me to bear a grudge against a table lamp. I've found many of their decisions as a business puzzling, even infuriating, but that isn't the same thing. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like Kirby if I met him, but that's not the same.

But that's frequently the issue, people getting emotional on behalf of an entity that's explicitly been grown as a cash making mechanism.

But recasts aren't sent in copy cat bags, at least from the top 3 or 4 names I've dealt with. I've occasionally received a kit in what was obviously a left over FW bag, but never one obviously intended to deceive, they were scuffed to feth and had code numbers written all over them. Neither is the resin any more toxic than FW (seriously, a Dakka user went to the trouble of getting it lab tested.)

I'm not sure where you get your information from, but based on first hand experience it's hopelessly inaccurate, even down to the notion of the scale. One guy can't add any new lines because he can't accommodate it, one guy is a school teacher, another guy does it in his garage at weekends and the two "professional" ones are such small scale enterprises that they all but disappear if there's even a small spike in demand because they can't keep up with communications and orders simultaneously.

It really isn't the great stalking beast waiting to take GW down that you seem to think it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedSarge wrote:
I've been meaning to do an in depth exposure on recasting for some time on my blog. I've been away from the hobby for some time now and as a result my priorities have changed. Be sure the recasting of expensive models is s lucrative and persistent business

I don't think anyone is thinking otherwise, why else would it be happening?

But seriously, your information seems waaay off from my experience from multiple sources over multiple platforms across several years, so I'd do a hell of a lot more research before I wrote that blog.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

In that case, would you have a particular problem if Maelstroms Edge for instance was being recasted and sold for pennies in comparison to the original?

I don't believe I've stated any kind of opinion on the matter in this thread and I don't intend to. Simply pointing out that being 'old fashioned' on the subject, is in fact, what the recasters are. So to speak.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
So essentially it then becomes a moral decision, and that's something they only need justify to themself, not to some random on the internet who has a different line in the sand, but very likely has some other dissonant line of thinking going on elsewhere in their lives of equal or greater degree.

I wasn't being defensive so much as defending what would be fairly obviously my position on the argument unless you'd jumped into the thread without reading it. I wasn't using other people's foibles as a justification for buying recasts, I don't need to justify it, I was merely outlining how people who are critical of those who do are likely fairly hypocritical because it's probable they're doing something elsewhere in their life that's equally morally "grey." It doesn't have to justify my behavior so much as cut the legs off of the high horse of anyone who seeks to somehow assume some moral authority over it.

But this discussion was over at "cheap" so I think we'll leave it there.

So my using the word "cheap" is a deal breaker but you can make a generalization relying on whattaboutism as a means to attack the other side? Oh, and you can't even give examples of what these "probable" misdeeds are, you just assume they are occurring in others as a way to justify what ultimately becomes a selfish drive to get something for cheaper than it normally costs. Forgive me if I find your outrage a bit disingenuous, especially considering your antagonistic tone throughout the thread, including calling for an imminent lock on page 2.

And again, "cutting the legs off the high horse" is such ridiculous speech, and is indicative to me that you feel what you are doing is "wrong" even if you want to try and argue that it isn't. I'd be more convinced by your convictions, and the convictions of others arguing your side of the position, if you all just owned it. Just say you want to save money. Don't argue that prices are too high, don't argue that this is a legal grey area, don't argue anything other than you want to avoid paying full retail price, or collectors prices, for models you feel entitled to. Because that is what it is. Entitlement. These being luxury items no one needs them, or is owed them. We just want them.

It's the pretzel twisting to justify what amounts to "I want this model but don't want to pay what it really costs" which I find so absurd in these discussions. As humans we all are selfish little gaks one way or another, but again, don't dress up the selfish motivations to try and obfuscate your actions. Just be honest.

 B Stores wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
What of it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 B Stores wrote:
As a separate aside, if anyone would like to pirate and re-cast any of my works, go right ahead

Legit question. Why?

Why would you want people re-casting your work and cutting you out of the revenue stream?

A variety of reasons!

The number one reason from my point of view would probably be publicity- the more of my work that's out there, the more likely people are to see it and want to purchase more.

The revenue from the cast miniatures is pretty low on a per-mini basis. I make more money out of prototypes, commissions and so forth (see above) and I feel it's worth it in the long run.

As anyone who wants to re cast my miniatures would have to purchase and cast the pieces themselves, they'd be putting in a fair bit of their own money. If it's for personal use, it doesn't bother me. If they can make better casts than the ones I can currently acquire, I'd be interested to see them!
And if they can produce them cheaper, I'd probably be even more interested

Casting can require a certain amount of time, skill and resources to get a quality result, so I'm always on the lookout for a good casting company

I hope that made some kind of sense

I definitely understand the publicity aspect. Treating your work as "samples" of your abilities does make business sense.

But where I don't follow is the idea that a caster who is producing better quality versions of your casts is beneficial to you when that caster is selling your items without your consent or any sort of business arrangement. Are you suggesting you would be interested in striking up a business deal with them? When I think of illegal casting operations of the kind in China churning out GW and FW stuff, I don't really see them being open to partnering with an artist who they would have to give a percentage of their earnings to. They are pirating models for a reason i.e. low overhead.

And why would you want to get into business with an individual or organization that used an illegal means (grey or otherwise) to demonstrate their abilities? If they are casting and selling your models without your consent, what else might they be capable of? It doesn't seem like a good foundation to build a business relationship on.

@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures. I have more than enough information thanks. Supporting what others have said, the entitlement recast supporters feel is an obvious thorn. These products are not required to exist, it is just 'need and 'want' and 'greed' that supports this piracy. I do not see the need to continue to support my point in this thread.

Well it's obviously against Dakka rules to name recasters publicly, but feel free to just give me an initial(s) and I'll know who you mean, there's only a handful in operation.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:



I definitely understand the publicity aspect. Treating your work as "samples" of your abilities does make business sense.

But where I don't follow is the idea that a caster who is producing better quality versions of your casts is beneficial to you when that caster is selling your items without your consent or any sort of business arrangement. Are you suggesting you would be interested in striking up a business deal with them? When I think of illegal casting operations of the kind in China churning out GW and FW stuff, I don't really see them being open to partnering with an artist who they would have to give a percentage of their earnings to. They are pirating models for a reason i.e. low overhead.

And why would you want to get into business with an individual or organization that used an illegal means (grey or otherwise) to demonstrate their abilities? If they are casting and selling your models without your consent, what else might they be capable of? It doesn't seem like a good foundation to build a business relationship on.

You are correct in some respects; but many of the Chinese casters (just as an example) I think are still operating legally under the laws of their own county. I might be wrong though.
In either case, my interest at this point is simply in sharing my work with others.
I sculpt far more than I could ever hope to cast or even finish myself, so for me it would be interesting to see what direction other people might take my ideas!

I guess my point of view is that I would rather have my work shared and appreciated than gathering dust on a shelf.

I actually feel pretty entitled to buy wathever I want with my hard earned money, yes.

Even if is ilegal. I don't buy drugs, or other products that are much worse in the morality scale, like Coca-cola and how they are literally stealing water from Africa (A continent that we all know has clean water for everybody, yes) so in fact killing people so they can be sell at a affordable price for us, western customers.

So yes. I have no problems buying illegal copies of products from China if I don't feel the original price is correct. Normally I prefer to go to second hand, look for offers, etc... before going for the recast option, thought.
Why is people so willing to forgive when a Multinational do all kind of "grey" or literally "black" business decissions, because "At least they create jobs/They just want to make money"? But are to fast to blame the average Joe every time he does the same at a much lower scale with a much smaller impact in other peoples lives?

Now what. I have been honest. Did this make me some kind of anti-wargaming hobby monster? I'm gonna go to hell? Are you gonna win Wargaming hobbyst points pointing at me smiling and thinking "Look at that looser, he is KILLING this hobby. But no me, I'm a good customer!"?

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Guv, nobody in customs or the police cares enough about someone replicating toy soldiers to do drug raid style seizures of resin krack. Christ, they barely care when someone reports actual theft of thousands of dollars of models. I've never heard of a single recaster packaging stuff up in FW imitation bags, and out of probably over a dozen threads on the topic, you're the first to ever claim it that I've seen.

It's a valid corollary for conversation from the main subject though, I should think (namely how to spot a recast). So where did you hear/see that recasters were going to plastic bag makers and having imitation FW ones churned out? Can we get some pictures? If so, perhaps we can try and figure out how to spot fake FW bags as well.

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Dunno if you ever smelled the stuff but it could probably cause a seizure.

raw resin anyway painted and sealed no one would be able to tell ever.

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Guv, nobody in customs or the police cares enough about someone replicating toy soldiers to doing drug raid style seizures of resin krack. Christ, they barely care when someone reports actual theft of thousands of dollars of models. I've never heard of a single recaster packaging stuff up in FW imitation bags, and out of probably over a dozen threads on the topic, you're the first to ever claim it that I've seen.

Quite. The assumption that Customs Officers the world over know precisely what packaging our toy soldiers are meant to be supplied in is stretching credulity a bit. Doubly so when so many perfectly legitimate models ship in plain zip locks or other non-branded packaging.

It's a valid corollary for conversation from the main subject though, I should think (namely how to spot a recast). So where did you hear/see that recasters were going to plastic bag makers and having imitation FW ones churned out? Can we get some pictures? If so, perhaps we can try and figure out how to spot fake FW bags as well.

From a purchasing point of view, I've never once seen any of the Chinese recasters ever make any attempt to present their product as anything other than what it is (i.e. a knock off.)

They're priced accordingly, there are frequently disclaimers along the lines of "if you want perfect product go buy the original" and there's no attempt at all to present them in blisters or other appropriate packaging, with or without branding. Like I say, the only time I've got stuff in FW bags it seemed more like it was the nearest ziplock to hand and so my stuff got shoved in it over any attempt to present it as original.

Which is why it is advisable to be cautious using the word counterfeit in this context, as there is no attempt to pass the fake off as anything other than fake, whereas counterfeiting is generally contingent on an attempt to deceive the buyer. If you buy from a recaster, you will be in no doubt you are buying recasts.

Those that buy recasts and then knowingly try and pass them off as originals in resale are a different issue.

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures. I have more than enough information thanks. Supporting what others have said, the entitlement recast supporters feel is an obvious thorn. These products are not required to exist, it is just 'need and 'want' and 'greed' that supports this piracy. I do not see the need to continue to support my point in this thread.

Well congratulations, you proved that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with the "counterfeit seizures" line. This is a solid example of how it's better to keep your mouth shut and make people wonder than open it and confirm for them.

Even a counterfiet titan wouldn't be enough to catch any authorities attention.

As far as determining whether you are getting a counterfiet model, the FW bag and whether you get the printed instructions are usually two fairly easy ways to identify whether a model is legit or not. Contrary to RedSarge's claim I have never seen nor heard about a recaster taking the time to print out labels for the bags they package the models in and I have also never seen, nor heard about a recaster taking the time to photo copy and include the printed instructions that come with most legit FW models. Of course a reseller could have always lost them over time but if you do get the bag with a label and instructions you can be fairly sure that it is legit.

 Galas wrote:
I actually feel pretty entitled to buy wathever I want with my hard earned money, yes.

Even if is ilegal. I don't buy drugs, or other products that are much worse in the morality scale, like Coca-cola and how they are literally stealing water from Africa (A continent that we all know has clean water for everybody, yes) so in fact killing people so they can be sell at a affordable price for us, western customers.

So yes. I have no problems buying illegal copies of products from China if I don't feel the original price is correct. Normally I prefer to go to second hand, look for offers, etc... before going for the recast option, thought.
Why is people so willing to forgive when a Multinational do all kind of "grey" or literally "black" business decissions, because "At least they create jobs/They just want to make money"? But are to fast to blame the average Joe every time he does the same at a much lower scale with a much smaller impact in other peoples lives?

Now what. I have been honest. Did this make me some kind of anti-wargaming hobby monster? I'm gonna go to hell? Are you gonna win Wargaming hobbyst points pointing at me smiling and thinking "Look at that looser, he is KILLING this hobby. But no me, I'm a good customer!"?

This. I consider many generally accepted as Good companies to actually Have Shady As Hell Business Practices (nestle, coca cola, anything to do with making clothing in sweatshops).

I could do all the recasting of stuff myself, and I have done such for my personal greenstuff conversions in the past, or for dark eldar blaters that cost $10 each on eBay, but from my own experience why would I want to do that and produce a fairly bad quality reproduction when I can just pay someone else to do it for me? Does it somehow become morally respectable when I do it myself and it is worse quality and costs me more time and money?

So, we're back to the overwhelming sense of entitlement pirates seem to have in abundance. I want it, and don't want to pay the price cause it's just so unfair that someone else decides what their work is worth

Oh man, this sentence was the kicker of the thread IMO. What someone else decides their work is worth? Well depending on one's personal philosophy the market determines the worth, not the person making the product.

In fact this is something that's even in econ 101 textbooks, when suppliers set their price too high there's demand that can be fulfilled by someone supplying for less. This is exactly what's happening.

Of course it's quite clear this isn't about economics or facts but how much smug condescension can be fit in one thread, so I'm out.

How to spot a recast on the tabletop?

If it is painted: you cannot.

I will also echo that at that point it is not a concern.

Purchases have been a matter of convenience for me, so the ethics of all this I pretty much am able to stay out of.

I have bought fakes by accident in the past, and I try to avoid doing that. Quality is important to me, and even though quality control doesn't appear to be a priority at FW, at least I can expect to receive replacements for missing, miscast or broken parts.

The only upside to recasts is the price, but you have no consumer rights and you could just be wasting your money on garbage.

 Zingraff wrote:
I have bought fakes by accident in the past, and I try to avoid doing that. Quality is important to me, and even though quality control doesn't appear to be a priority at FW, at least I can expect to receive replacements for missing, miscast or broken parts.

The only upside to recasts is the price, but you have no consumer rights and you could just be wasting your money on garbage.

Not true at all. Most recasters have better QC than FW, will send out missing parts or replacement for unfixable parts at no additional cost. They also run sales, give out freebies, send you random not-perfect casts with your order and are more worried about receiving bad publicity for their product/service than GW/FW is.

Your always protected through Paypal if something goes wrong.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 Zingraff wrote:
I have bought fakes by accident in the past, and I try to avoid doing that. Quality is important to me, and even though quality control doesn't appear to be a priority at FW, at least I can expect to receive replacements for missing, miscast or broken parts.

The only upside to recasts is the price, but you have no consumer rights and you could just be wasting your money on garbage.

Not true at all. Most recasters have better QC than FW, will send out missing parts or replacement for unfixable parts at no additional cost. They also run sales, give out freebies, send you random not-perfect casts with your order and are more worried about receiving bad publicity for their product/service than GW/FW is.

Your always protected through Paypal if something goes wrong.

It's totally true. Re-read and look at what he said. That you have no 'consumer rights'. Which is true.

Well, my experience is only anecdotal, and unless I've bought directly from FW, I've purchased models and kits second hand on eBay.

If I was to make a complaint to Paypal over something I bought, best case scenario I get my money back, but I'd still be a model short.

I honestly don't know where you get your fake FW from, but I doubt the random recasters on eBay offer replacements. Those guys get shut down all the time, before they crop up again under different names, so it's not like they need to worry about their reputation.

They really do though. It's not simply a business thing, for the Chinese it's a cultural thing, they're desperate not to incur negative responses.

I'm not aware of "proper" recasters who sell through eBay though, they tend to be Russian or low level resellers/hobbyists that should know better.

The handful of sellers that are actually producing product (as opposed to buying it and then selling it on other platforms at a mark up) absolutely need to be aware of their reputation and absolutely do provide after sales support. There is a certain expectation that you know what you're buying and they're not going to replace every part with some small imperfection, but if something's FUBAR or missing, you'll get assistance.

 ScarletRose wrote:
Well depending on one's personal philosophy the market determines the worth, not the person making the product.

The market is not determining the worth of recasts, illegal recasters are. You don't have a legitimate market where "the market determines everything" applies when people are breaking the law to undercut the legitimate company's prices.

Copyright is intended to reward those who innovate or make the product you like.
It is to allow them to gain enough revenue to justify paying for new product to be developed.

It is a bit of a social contract that if you like product from someone, you buy from them.
Copiers are just opportunists able to sell because of the decreased overhead of you know, not contributing to new product.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
Well depending on one's personal philosophy the market determines the worth, not the person making the product.

The market is not determining the worth of recasts, illegal recasters are. You don't have a legitimate market where "the market determines everything" applies when people are breaking the law to undercut the legitimate company's prices.

Don't be daft. If the recasters price their product too high people won't buy it, either because any morality issue ceases to be outweighed by the advantages in cost, or because the convenience of more widely available official product offsets the same savings. Plus they're in competition with one another.

Any situation where product is offered for sale from more than one source and the consumer is under no obligation to buy from one or at all is subject to market forces, and those forces heavily influence price.

As for the comparison between recasting and media piracy, no, it isn't a reasonable comparison to make.

The driving force behind most media piracy was genuinely the lack of digital distribution options. As people spent more time on our computers and/or phones we wanted options to get our movies/music/etc there, and there wasn't a good legal option. If you wanted music on your computer you pirated it. But once the legal digital sales options appeared interest in piracy crashed, even though prices remained the same. Sure, a few people continued to pirate everything because they were poor or just because they could, but it turns out that most of the former pirates wanted to buy legally and picked piracy as a last-resort option.

The driving force behind buying recasts is indisputably entitled people who expect cheaper prices. Outside of a few edge cases like buying a recast of a finecast "model" (which is impossible to buy legally) recasts are clearly the inferior product. They're harder to find, have much longer shipping times, have questionable casting quality, and have unreliable customer support at best. The only point they win on is price, and only because they're able to cut out the expenses of a legitimate seller by ripping off someone else's work. By buying recasts you're saying "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them", and I give that argument zero sympathy. Any justifications are nothing more than self-serving rationalizations for why it's ok to do something illegal to save a few dollars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Don't be daft. If the recasters price their product too high people won't buy it, either because any morality issue ceases to be outweighed by the advantages in cost, or because the convenience of more widely available official product offsets the same savings. Plus they're in competition with one another.

Any situation where product is offered for sale from more than one source and the consumer is under no obligation to buy from one or at all is subject to market forces, and those forces heavily influence price.

Sure, the prices between recasters are determined by market forces, but the price of recasts vs. the price of legitimate models has nothing to do with the market. Recasters aren't undercutting legitimate sellers because they're better at the market and have figured out a more desirable choice of price vs. sales volume, they're undercutting legitimate sellers because they rip off someone else's work and operate out of countries with zero IP enforcement.

 Peregrine wrote:
By buying recasts you're saying "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them", and I give that argument zero sympathy. Any justifications are nothing more than self-serving rationalizations for why it's ok to do something illegal to save a few dollars.

I would argue that The Entirety Of The American Consumer Base And All Corporations already fully believe "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them" and that claiming otherwise is silly.

Sure, the prices between recasters are determined by market forces, but the price of recasts vs. the price of legitimate models has nothing to do with the market. Recasters aren't undercutting legitimate sellers because they're better at the market and have figured out a more desirable choice of price vs. sales volume, they're undercutting legitimate sellers because they rip off someone else's work and operate out of countries with zero IP enforcement.

Which still doesn't validate what you said. They're operating in a different market, essentially, but are still subject to the same commercial pressures as legitimate producers.

It's a fallacy to assume they're operating in the same market, you yourself have just listed a laundry list of reasons why.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures. I have more than enough information thanks. Supporting what others have said, the entitlement recast supporters feel is an obvious thorn. These products are not required to exist, it is just 'need and 'want' and 'greed' that supports this piracy. I do not see the need to continue to support my point in this thread.

Well congratulations, you proved that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with the "counterfeit seizures" line. This is a solid example of how it's better to keep your mouth shut and make people wonder than open it and confirm for them.

Even a counterfiet titan wouldn't be enough to catch any authorities attention.

As far as determining whether you are getting a counterfiet model, the FW bag and whether you get the printed instructions are usually two fairly easy ways to identify whether a model is legit or not. Contrary to RedSarge's claim I have never seen nor heard about a recaster taking the time to print out labels for the bags they package the models in and I have also never seen, nor heard about a recaster taking the time to photo copy and include the printed instructions that come with most legit FW models. Of course a reseller could have always lost them over time but if you do get the bag with a label and instructions you can be fairly sure that it is legit.

Have you ever bought recast before!? From Siberia? No! China? other parts of Russia? Before you decry me as a false fool maybe get your hands dirty.
The moment I opened up a package containing filthy, reeking dark grey Forgeworld models packed INSIDE Forgeworld baggies, the levels the recasters will go to became new.

I'm not stopping you, no one is. Go right ahead, As for the customs "scare" that was from a popular recast subreddit, the original buyer never did claim if they received there items after they were withheld.
The entire lot of recast supporters was in arms, worried there recast toys soldiers would be taken away. Again, I'm not stopping you. If I lived in England, I would support my locals just as I go out of my way to support Canadian endeavors. Yeah, I'm the guy who says "Yeah, and it's Canadian!"

 Desubot wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Dunno if you ever smelled the stuff but it could probably cause a seizure.

raw resin anyway painted and sealed no one would be able to tell ever.

I thought that would give someone a laugh! Add some levity to this stern thread.

 RedSarge wrote:

Have you ever bought recast before!? From Siberia? No! China? other parts of Russia? Before you decry me as a false fool maybe get your hands dirty.
The moment I opened up a package containing filthy, reeking dark grey Forgeworld models packed INSIDE Forgeworld baggies, the levels the recasters will go to became new.

I can't quite figure if you're saying you bought Forgeworld from somewhere and got something you thought wasn't FW in a FW bag, or if you went to buy a recast and received it in a FW bag.

I mean, by your comments thus far I'd assume the former. But frankly, as the only case I've ever heard of, that sounds to me like FW either did a naff batch of resin, or a recaster had a spare FW bag handy from the original model and shoved it in there. If it were a common method, we'd have heard of a lot more cases of it, let alone this hypothesis you posited about recasters having fake bags made up.

I'm assuming that there's more evidence you haven't shared yet though?


EDIT:- After some sleuthing, I've managed to uncover a story of recast stuff coming in FW bags. But only one. So at the moment, I'm still inclined to think it's just a re-use of bags from stuff they bought to recast. Here's the picture.

I'm not stopping you, no one is. Go right ahead, As for the customs "scare" that was from a popular recast subreddit, the original buyer never did claim if they received there items after they were withheld.

I did some google searches using the keywords you gave. Won't post the results here, but literally all I could find was people panicking because their stuff got stopped by customs for a few weeks prior to getting an import tax label shoved through their door. Which is a 10% occurrence on practically anything from outside Europe. I had a friend buy a wig from South America the other day who had it happen. It sucks, because often it wipes out any discount you got from buying something abroad, but it's not quite the thing you're trying to portray it as?

I mean, let's be honest here. Customs officials don't generally get given the sort of extensive training that they'd need to pick recasts out.

It'd be great if they did though, can you imagine?

'Ahah! This Brass Scorpion is clearly not of Nottingham based origin! Steve, get over here! You ain't never smelt resin like this inside these borders! Get Kirby on the phone and tell him we've nabbed another one! We'll nail these immoral recast supporters and bring them to justice if it's the last thing we ever do!'

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
By buying recasts you're saying "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them", and I give that argument zero sympathy. Any justifications are nothing more than self-serving rationalizations for why it's ok to do something illegal to save a few dollars.

I would argue that The Entirety Of The American Consumer Base And All Corporations already fully believe "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them" and that claiming otherwise is silly.

Exalted!

 RedSarge wrote:


Have you ever bought recast before!? From Siberia? No! China? other parts of Russia? Before you decry me as a false fool maybe get your hands dirty.
The moment I opened up a package containing filthy, reeking dark grey Forgeworld models packed INSIDE Forgeworld baggies, the levels the recasters will go to became new.

I'm not stopping you, no one is. Go right ahead, As for the customs "scare" that was from a popular recast subreddit, the original buyer never did claim if they received there items after they were withheld.
The entire lot of recast supporters was in arms, worried there recast toys soldiers would be taken away. Again, I'm not stopping you. If I lived in England, I would support my locals just as I go out of my way to support Canadian endeavors. Yeah, I'm the guy who says "Yeah, and it's Canadian!"

I think it is safe to say that a significant number of people in this thread, including myself have ordered or had experience with recasters and you are literally the *only* one making the claims you are. And several of us are telling you that we have never experienced anything that you are claiming and cannot even find evidence of someone else (beyond maybe one incident where a recaster reused FW bags) who has experienced anything like you claim is the norm.

So: Have you ever bought recast before!? From Siberia? No! China? other parts of Russia? because you really don't seem to know what you are talking about and have maybe a single experience that you are using as a basis for how the entirity of a small industry works.

 Galas wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
By buying recasts you're saying "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them", and I give that argument zero sympathy. Any justifications are nothing more than self-serving rationalizations for why it's ok to do something illegal to save a few dollars.

I would argue that The Entirety Of The American Consumer Base And All Corporations already fully believe "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them" and that claiming otherwise is silly.

I got a kick out of this, but it is kind of related to why I resorted to buying a recast of a superheavy about a year ago. I'd gone to buy it on the FW website legitimately, but discovered that it only came with one weapon option, despite having 2 in the profile. In order to get the second set of weapons, you'd have to purchase an entire second set with that option, as they didn't sell just the weapons kit separately. This bothered me enough to say, "screw this, that's not an okay thing to do," and set about finding a recast. And it is a good one, I still have it proudly atop my bookshelf. I'm not trying to justify my logic as ethical, but more to explain how I (and probably many others) got there.

I make casts all the time. I make them of weapons and wargear options. I do buy official kits, but I am not gonna buy two to three kits to create ONE unit. I also magnetize the options. I would consider bits if their prices weren't a 1/4 of the kit half the time. Seriously, who in their right mind pays that much for bits?

 NorseSig wrote:
I make casts all the time. I make them of weapons and wargear options. I do buy official kits, but I am not gonna buy two to three kits to create ONE unit. I also magnetize the options. I would consider bits if their prices weren't a 1/4 of the kit half the time. Seriously, who in their right mind pays that much for bits?

Things in demand with a limited supply will always be higher price.

thats pretty common sense.

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect.

It's very difficult, intellectually, for me to go to bat for a company getting their IP infringed when they've claimed in court that they own the IP for halberds, wings, roman numerals, skulls, lions, and the concept of space marines.

The recasters might be bad guys, but I definitely don't see GWS as the good guys.

 Galas wrote:
Now what. I have been honest. Did this make me some kind of anti-wargaming hobby monster? I'm gonna go to hell? Are you gonna win Wargaming hobbyst points pointing at me smiling and thinking "Look at that looser, he is KILLING this hobby. But no me, I'm a good customer!"?

Jeez such drama. No, you aren't an anti-wargaming monster. Again, my point is that people should just own their real reasoning and not give stupid excuses for justifying their support of illegal castings.

When asked why you buy pirated copies of anything, the only legitimate answer is "because it is cheap." What is obnoxious is when people try to justify their purchase by criticizing the pricing of the legitimate items, or griping that OOP collectors items aren't being made so no one is harmed when cheap knock offs flood the market. Those are bs excuses used to make the person feel better about doing something they know is, at best, morally ambiguous.

That is what I am calling out. The deflection. I don't care what you do with your money. Just don't give me a story about how you are justifying your actions in order to save some coin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect.

It's very difficult, intellectually, for me to go to bat for a company getting their IP infringed when they've claimed in court that they own the IP for halberds, wings, roman numerals, skulls, lions, and the concept of space marines.

The recasters might be bad guys, but I definitely don't see GWS as the good guys.

It isn't just GW and FW stuff being recast. That might be what most people are focusing on in this discussion, but the practice itself really feths up other areas of the hobby, especially the collecting side.

Battletech figures are notoriously easy to make cheap castings of and eBay has been flooded with them for years. That makes collecting some of the more sought after older figures extremely difficult and new collectors have paid good money for what they thought were legitimate castings only to find they had some lame tin casting from some dude's garage. Battletech is just one example, but recasts are not exclusive to GW games and they do have an impact on the secondary market.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

or griping that OOP collectors items aren't being made so no one is harmed when cheap knock offs flood the market.

I mean, the rest of what you say I shrug, because it doesn't affect me as I don't think I pretend reasons for myself to do what I do (and I also don't think I have any professionally recasted things) but I don't understand how you think this is some sort of case where one is justifying their bad behavior. There literally is NO other alternative if you want that product, for any price. You can't call that cheap, because there's no more highly priced alternative.

It seriously requires more mental acrobatics to conflate that into "cheap and pretending otherwise" than it does to just accept it at face value.

 NorseSig wrote:
I make casts all the time. I make them of weapons and wargear options. I do buy official kits, but I am not gonna buy two to three kits to create ONE unit. I also magnetize the options. I would consider bits if their prices weren't a 1/4 of the kit half the time. Seriously, who in their right mind pays that much for bits?

I just bought a bunch of Bluestuff to make my own molds for bits, because I could easily double the cost of my armies with all the options I want to magnetize. There are also some things I simply can't find.

I've subsequently realized that finding ways to keep money out of GW's pockets is a major part of the fun of the hobby for me.

Containment_Failure wrote:
I just bought a bunch of Bluestuff to make my own molds for bits, because I could easily double the cost of my armies with all the options I want to magnetize. There are also some things I simply can't find.

I've subsequently realized that finding ways to keep money out of GW's pockets is a major part of the fun of the hobby for me.

Yep, I've gone down this road too. Back in 5th edition I was building a Dark Eldar army until I realized that my 4 boxes of Kabalite Warriors would not be enough to give me all my weapons options. I would have to buy another $319 of warrior boxes just to get 11 bits needed to gives me units their appropriate options. That didn't seem reasonable. I could pay eBay bits sellers $100+ to get those 11 bits, still didn't seem reasonable. I went the cheap option and decided to cast my own, invested $50+ and hours into research and mold making to get the bits the "ethical" "home grown" way, and ended up at a dead end with unsatisfying bit quality.

I quit Warhammer 40k for at least 4 years at that point.

GW was getting $0 from me during those 50 months. If I had known I could buy 10 blasters for $3, I probably would have finished that Dark Eldar army and continued to give GW money. But, that didn't happen. I got frustrated with the system and just decided, feth it.


Now, I am faced with similar options. Do I cobble together unaesthetic but morally acceptable models to get my army to the table? Do I flounder around looking for an answer and end up quitting the game entirely? Nope, I buy anything plastic from GW, all my paints and supplies from GW, and when I need 30x of some random metal model just to chop up and use for conversions I buy the resin versions from some upstanding gentleman oversees. I get the army I want in a material I can cut and convert, the game gets an active player, GW gets a bunch of my money, and someone on the other side of the planet makes a living without having to justify themselves to the internet morality police.

Seems like a win-win-win-win to me.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
In order to get the second set of weapons, you'd have to purchase an entire second set with that option, as they didn't sell just the weapons kit separately. This bothered me enough to say, "screw this, that's not an okay thing to do," and set about finding a recast. And it is a good one, I still have it proudly atop my bookshelf. I'm not trying to justify my logic as ethical, but more to explain how I (and probably many others) got there.

Good, because any attempt at ethical justification would just be a self-serving rationalization of your selfishness and lack of moral standards. I don't know how you can seriously say things like "that's not an ok thing to do" about the horrifying crime of forcing you to pick which weapon choice to use when you buy a model. But it just demonstrates the point that buying recasts is entirely about feeling entitled to have something at a certain price, regardless of how you get it.

 Peregrine wrote:
horrifying crime of forcing you to pick which weapon choice to use when you buy a model.

So I guess the fact that you have to buy 40 Kabalite Warriors in order to build a 5 man unit of Kabalite Trueborn is Totally Cool And Not A Problem?

So I guess the fact that you have to buy 40 Kabalite Warriors in order to build a 5 man unit of Kabalite Trueborn is Totally Cool And Not A Problem?

Of course companies intentionally selling incomplete products to try to make more sales is a-ok, but as a consumer don't you dare be "entitled" or "cheap" or any of those other buzzwords folks need to use to masturbate about how morally superior they are.

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
horrifying crime of forcing you to pick which weapon choice to use when you buy a model.

So I guess the fact that you have to buy 40 Kabalite Warriors in order to build a 5 man unit of Kabalite Trueborn is Totally Cool And Not A Problem?

If you don't like it then don't buy it at all. It might be annoying, but it certainly isn't a moral problem and it doesn't mean you're entitled to buy illegal recasts instead.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't like it then don't buy it at all. It might be annoying, but it certainly isn't a moral problem and it doesn't mean you're entitled to buy illegal recasts instead.

The people making them do it perfectly legally in their countries and I don't consider it a moral negative. Where does the problem start existing?

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't like it then don't buy it at all. It might be annoying, but it certainly isn't a moral problem and it doesn't mean you're entitled to buy illegal recasts instead.

The people making them do it perfectly legally in their countries and I don't consider it a moral negative. Where does the problem start existing?

If you don't consider it a moral negative then that says some pretty sad things about your moral standards.

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Guv, nobody in customs or the police cares enough about someone replicating toy soldiers to do drug raid style seizures of resin krack. Christ, they barely care when someone reports actual theft of thousands of dollars of models. I've never heard of a single recaster packaging stuff up in FW imitation bags, and out of probably over a dozen threads on the topic, you're the first to ever claim it that I've seen.

It's a valid corollary for conversation from the main subject though, I should think (namely how to spot a recast). So where did you hear/see that recasters were going to plastic bag makers and having imitation FW ones churned out? Can we get some pictures? If so, perhaps we can try and figure out how to spot fake FW bags as well.

Oh the irony; quite a few recasters supply models in forgeworld bags (and yes, i assume these are fake). And there is a way to spot them. Aaaaand it is amazing how many come up on ebay claiming to be "in original forgeworld packaging"

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't consider it a moral negative then that says some pretty sad things about your moral standards.

So I badly cast my own blasters and that's OK
I see no problem with paying some Russian guy 3 dollars to cast blasters for me and suddenly That Says Some Pretty Sad Things About Moral Standards?

You must be a Very Smart and Wise philosopher guy.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't like it then don't buy it at all. It might be annoying, but it certainly isn't a moral problem and it doesn't mean you're entitled to buy illegal recasts instead.

The people making them do it perfectly legally in their countries and I don't consider it a moral negative. Where does the problem start existing?

If you don't consider it a moral negative then that says some pretty sad things about your moral standards.

This presupposes that IP laws are inherently moral, which I have yet to see anyone prove in this thread.

Funnily enough I've probably bought a recast without knowing it. I just buy lots of figs on the secondhand market at Geeky yard sales and bazaars.

Only one I can think of that I'm pretty sure was a recast was a Heroquest chaos warrior. It wasn't on it's "base" and the horns were a bit off, it was in resin, but has since been painted. In the lot were a bunch of old metals, slambo era metal figs that I enjoy. The rest of the Heroquest Warriors of Chaos were plastic and on their bases.

I don't care if the figs I buy are recasts or not. I don't spend enough money to warrant worrying about such things. I spent $25 on old chaos figs in a tacklebox. I like the figures, that's all I need to know.

Playing against someone who spent money on a recast fig that's painted is IMO better than Soda can drop pods any day.

Honestly the question being asked could only be important to a TO or possibly a manager of a GW store. Have fun playing a game. I think sometimes people take this stuff too seriously(Myself included)

To the people who say it's only the "big boys" that get ripped off; not the case. I've certainly seen Hasslefree and Fenris Games (both very small outfits) warning potential cusatomers about recasts.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't like it then don't buy it at all.

Agreed. I stopped playing Magic and WH40K for this reason, and will not be buying FFG's RuneWars or Star Wars Legion, either.

I do have Shadow Armageddon (sp), which allows me to play my old GW miniatures, but doesn't oblige me to buy more GW models, like another iteration of WH40K would.

Kings of War allows you to use your own models, and many older miniature wargamers know that "universal" rule sets are quite playable.

 ulgurstasta wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't like it then don't buy it at all. It might be annoying, but it certainly isn't a moral problem and it doesn't mean you're entitled to buy illegal recasts instead.

The people making them do it perfectly legally in their countries and I don't consider it a moral negative. Where does the problem start existing?

If you don't consider it a moral negative then that says some pretty sad things about your moral standards.

This presupposes that IP laws are inherently moral, which I have yet to see anyone prove in this thread.

Inherently moral? Of course not, because then you have to get into philosophical arguments about inherent morality in general. But IP laws exist for good reasons. If you want to have new IP then you have to protect the creator's rights to their work, if anyone is free to copy something new then there's no incentive to make it yourself. Someone else can just take your work and copy it, undercutting your prices in the process because they don't have to pay all the same creation expenses that you had to pay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't consider it a moral negative then that says some pretty sad things about your moral standards.

So I badly cast my own blasters and that's OK
I see no problem with paying some Russian guy 3 dollars to cast blasters for me and suddenly That Says Some Pretty Sad Things About Moral Standards?

You must be a Very Smart and Wise philosopher guy.

Who said your own recasting was ok?

 Peregrine wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't like it then don't buy it at all. It might be annoying, but it certainly isn't a moral problem and it doesn't mean you're entitled to buy illegal recasts instead.

The people making them do it perfectly legally in their countries and I don't consider it a moral negative. Where does the problem start existing?

If you don't consider it a moral negative then that says some pretty sad things about your moral standards.

Or you are communist.


Да здравствует Россия!

I've bought plenty of Forgeworld (one of the first to buy Lucius Warhound, Baneblade, both Marauders, every statue and bust they released and every Imperial Guard tank) and I've also bought a few recasts and honestly depending which recaster you use, you can't tell the difference once you have it in your hands.

I have no problem buying recasts because I know how much it costs to make a model from start to finish and how much Forgeworld is over charging, like people have said on here charge a fair and reasonable price for your models and recasts won't look like a better buy.

The morality issue is usually brought up by people who feel stupid for paying more for the same model and are just trying to make others feel bad, which never works.

 Rolsheen wrote:
I have no problem buying recasts because I know how much it costs to make a model from start to finish and how much Forgeworld is over charging, like people have said on here charge a fair and reasonable price for your models and recasts won't look like a better buy.

There is no "fair and reasonable" here, it's a nonsense concept when applied to luxury items like 40k models. Trying to present GW's prices as some kind of moral issue is nothing more than self-serving rationalization for selfish behavior.

The morality issue is usually brought up by people who feel stupid for paying more for the same model and are just trying to make others feel bad, which never works.

Or by those of us who are artists/authors/etc, and don't like the idea of our fellow content creators being ripped off by people who feel entitled to take whatever they want as long as it gets them a cheaper price.

Thank you Peregrine, it's always nice to hear someone's opinion that differs from one's own.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
It isn't just GW and FW stuff being recast. That might be what most people are focusing on in this discussion, but the practice itself really feths up other areas of the hobby, especially the collecting side.

Battletech figures are notoriously easy to make cheap castings of and eBay has been flooded with them for years. That makes collecting some of the more sought after older figures extremely difficult and new collectors have paid good money for what they thought were legitimate castings only to find they had some lame tin casting from some dude's garage. Battletech is just one example, but recasts are not exclusive to GW games and they do have an impact on the secondary market.

Yeah... you'll notice that for the most part none of us here are talking about buying things we think are legitimate and then getting duped by a recaster. A lot of us are talking about recasters who say flatout that they are recasters.

First off, morality itself is nothing other than a preconceived and egotistical concept.

"The way I (and others like me) do things is the right way and your way is evil because its different"

Copywrite protections are necessary to protect the creator. This I do agree with. However, if a majority of consumers think your product is overcosted (and therefore find ways to get it for cheaper), then it is probably overcosted. This is a free market mentality.

You are free to charge whatever you want for your product, but if you charge so much that no one buys it, guess what, your out of business.

Ethics, morality and belief structures have always been a little difficult for me to get my head around.

But doesn't any artist want their work to be seen, shared and appreciated?

Money won't remember me when I'm gone!

(I'm no saint, though. Money is still useful while I'm alive )

A lot of this debate comes down to one core question:

Which is more ethical: to jack up prices when you have an effective monopoly (screwing consumers) or to knowingly purchase replicas of an item from said monopoly at lower cost (screwing the company and potentially consumers as a second order effect) ? I don't think it's as easy to answer as some would like to think...and would suggest getting down from that cross if you want to have an adult discussion about it.

 Peregrine wrote:


Who said your own recasting was ok?

GW did. They've had tutorials for doing it with green stuff both in WD and on their old website (that one's now gone).

 Eihnlazer wrote:
First off, morality itself is nothing other than a preconceived and egotistical concept.

"The way I (and others like me) do things is the right way and your way is evil because its different"

Copywrite protections are necessary to protect the creator. This I do agree with. However, if a majority of consumers think your product is overcosted (and therefore find ways to get it for cheaper), then it is probably overcosted. This is a free market mentality.

You are free to charge whatever you want for your product, but if you charge so much that no one buys it, guess what, your out of business.

Seems like the majority of people are still buying it though and it appears profits on a climb for gee dubs. even at these prices that some people are finding too high.

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
horrifying crime of forcing you to pick which weapon choice to use when you buy a model.

So I guess the fact that you have to buy 40 Kabalite Warriors in order to build a 5 man unit of Kabalite Trueborn is Totally Cool And Not A Problem?

Your lot in life is not to have nice things. That is the only moral choice. If you were meant for anything greater than sitting on the sidelines watching your betters enjoy their prosperity, your bank account would show it. I suggest you find a hobby more fitting for your station, such as toothpick chewing or rock smashing.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
horrifying crime of forcing you to pick which weapon choice to use when you buy a model.

So I guess the fact that you have to buy 40 Kabalite Warriors in order to build a 5 man unit of Kabalite Trueborn is Totally Cool And Not A Problem?

Your lot in life is not to have nice things. That is the only moral choice. If you were meant for anything greater than sitting on the sidelines watching your betters enjoy their prosperity, your bank account would show it. I suggest you find a hobby more fitting for your station, such as toothpick chewing or rock smashing.

I didn't think anything good was going to come of this thread, but I stand corrected. Thank you for an unexpected laugh.

Process wrote:

Oh the irony; quite a few recasters supply models in forgeworld bags (and yes, i assume these are fake). And there is a way to spot them.

...............so would you care to, you know, enlighten us?

- Double Mold Lines
- Thin parts
- Squared edges are bowed inwards
- Anything square has a depression as the parts are not cast in high quality RTV silicone, often a cheap yellow or purple colored rubber mold. This can be described as concave depressions leading to all edges being peaked and sharp
- Transparent parts
- Horrible solvent smell that persist even after degreasing and washing
- Base material made from a different plastic than standard

 RedSarge wrote:
- Double Mold Lines
- Thin parts
- Squared edges are bowed inwards
- Anything square has a depression as the parts are not cast in high quality RTV silicone, often a cheap yellow or purple colored rubber mold. This can be described as concave depressions leading to all edges being peaked and sharp
- Transparent parts
- Horrible solvent smell that persist even after degreasing and washing
- Base material made from a different plastic than standard

All of this was already debunked in this thread.

Can we just lock it up?

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
- Double Mold Lines
- Thin parts
- Squared edges are bowed inwards
- Anything square has a depression as the parts are not cast in high quality RTV silicone, often a cheap yellow or purple colored rubber mold. This can be described as concave depressions leading to all edges being peaked and sharp
- Transparent parts
- Horrible solvent smell that persist even after degreasing and washing
- Base material made from a different plastic than standard

All of this was already debunked in this thread.

Can we just lock it up?

I think we pretty much hit everything associated with recasts.

its probably time to lock it up so we can start a fresh one in a month or two.

A lot of piracy/recast arguments assume that purchases are a zero-sum-game. Just because someone bought something from a recaster does not mean they otherwise would have bought it from Games Workshop. If a recaster offers a $40 Super Heavy it does not mean that Games Workshop lost $150. A lot of people have a breaking point and would not make that purchase at $150 even if they did not have the recast alternative. Game of Thrones is a fantastic example for this since its release in 2011 to 2014 you had to purchase HBO from a cable provider in order to legally get access to Game of Thrones as its being released. Paying for cable and a premium subscription service on top of that was too expensive for lots of fans so they turned to piracy. HBO responded in 2014 by lowering the cost by offering a direct streaming service instead of clamping down hard on piracy. Once the cost went dramatically down more people purchased HBO accounts. Yes there was still lots of piracy, but I highly doubt the show would be as massively successful if it wasn't for people relying on stream sites etc over cable television from 2011 to 2014. To apply it to wargaming, our Start Collecting! boxes and bundles that don't suck are our cost reduction and they have been doing very well. In fact, some of the Start Collecting boxes are fairly cost competitive to recasting even before you take quality/convenience into account.

 Ketara wrote:

Process wrote:

Oh the irony; quite a few recasters supply models in forgeworld bags (and yes, i assume these are fake). And there is a way to spot them.

...............so would you care to, you know, enlighten us?

Okay, let me rephrase (since the above posts would indicate I wasn't entirely clear). How do you spot the fake bags? Everyone and their mum knows how to take a stab at guessing if a model is fake, it's the claims of fake bags I'm interested in. They're the new development. How do they differentiate from the FW ones? etcetc.

 Ketara wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

Process wrote:

Oh the irony; quite a few recasters supply models in forgeworld bags (and yes, i assume these are fake). And there is a way to spot them.

...............so would you care to, you know, enlighten us?

Okay, let me rephrase (since the above posts would indicate I wasn't entirely clear). How do you spot the fake bags? Everyone and their mum knows how to take a stab at guessing if a model is fake, it's the claims of fake bags I'm interested in. They're the new development. How do they differentiate from the FW ones? etcetc.

The recasts I have gotten in FW bags are actual FW bags (I would assume) left over from the model the person made the cast from. Mine had a few holes punched in them though for some reason. Inside they had smaller unmarked zip bags for the little bits which weren't attached to sprue/gates. As to telling how they are not genuine on the table top after cleaning, gapfilling and painting, pretty much impossible.

DominayTrix wrote:
A lot of piracy/recast arguments assume that purchases are a zero-sum-game. Just because someone bought something from a recaster does not mean they otherwise would have bought it from Games Workshop. If a recaster offers a $40 Super Heavy it does not mean that Games Workshop lost $150. A lot of people have a breaking point and would not make that purchase at $150 even if they did not have the recast alternative. Game of Thrones is a fantastic example for this since its release in 2011 to 2014 you had to purchase HBO from a cable provider in order to legally get access to Game of Thrones as its being released. Paying for cable and a premium subscription service on top of that was too expensive for lots of fans so they turned to piracy. HBO responded in 2014 by lowering the cost by offering a direct streaming service instead of clamping down hard on piracy. Once the cost went dramatically down more people purchased HBO accounts. Yes there was still lots of piracy, but I highly doubt the show would be as massively successful if it wasn't for people relying on stream sites etc over cable television from 2011 to 2014. To apply it to wargaming, our Start Collecting! boxes and bundles that don't suck are our cost reduction and they have been doing very well. In fact, some of the Start Collecting boxes are fairly cost competitive to recasting even before you take quality/convenience into account.

Agreed with pretty much everything here. I've got some recasts and right now I'm giving GW oodles and oodles of money, far more than I have in the past. It seems to be working out pretty well for GW even given the recasting. I've bought a ton of Start Collecting! boxes as you note. I've got HBO to watch Game of Thrones instead of pirating it as you say too!

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


The recasts I have gotten in FW bags are actual FW bags (I would assume) left over from the model the person made the cast from. Mine had a few holes punched in them though for some reason. Inside they had smaller unmarked zip bags for the little bits which weren't attached to sprue/gates. As to telling how they are not genuine on the table top after cleaning, gapfilling and painting, pretty much impossible.

Most legit FW bags have holes in them as well (about the size of a standard notebook punch, usually still hanging on), in order to let the extra air out for packing.

 whalemusic360 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


The recasts I have gotten in FW bags are actual FW bags (I would assume) left over from the model the person made the cast from. Mine had a few holes punched in them though for some reason. Inside they had smaller unmarked zip bags for the little bits which weren't attached to sprue/gates. As to telling how they are not genuine on the table top after cleaning, gapfilling and painting, pretty much impossible.

Most legit FW bags have holes in them as well (about the size of a standard notebook punch, usually still hanging on), in order to let the extra air out for packing.

I was baffled as to why my Hierodule I got in a trade (came with FW bag and order note) had a hole bunch through it so it can't close

It struck me as odd why someone would hole punch it

The holes appear in the photograph I posted before. That might be an identifying feature of a fake bag? Or a recast at least. I can't say any of my FW bags have holes punched in them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
horrifying crime of forcing you to pick which weapon choice to use when you buy a model.

So I guess the fact that you have to buy 40 Kabalite Warriors in order to build a 5 man unit of Kabalite Trueborn is Totally Cool And Not A Problem?

If you don't like it then don't buy it at all. It might be annoying, but it certainly isn't a moral problem and it doesn't mean you're entitled to buy illegal recasts instead.

Which is why I don't buy GW at all.

Yep a win-win for GW there! By pricing their stuff far past any logical point, they have done their best for Reaper Miniatures. Mantic Games. Kromlech. Victoria.

Pretty much anybody that isn't GW.

Just because piracy is wrong (and I won't argue otherwise) does not mean that GW is right.

Pretending that GW is pure and above board is disingenuous at best. As pointed out - they tried to claim halberds, skulls, Roman Numerals, and grenade launchers as IP. During the Chapter House trial they tried to pretend that they made everything up 'out of their own heads' - then tried to prevent images of the old British Mk I tanks being shown to prove that, no... they outright stole as much as they could from existing sources.

The upcoming Necromunda is the first release in a long time that has me interested enough to actually give GW any of my money.

I kind of expect GW to mess that up enough that I will go another eight years without buying any of their games or miniatures.

The Auld Grump - as for Spots the Space Marine....

 Ketara wrote:
The holes appear in the photograph I posted before. That might be an identifying feature of a fake bag? Or a recast at least. I can't say any of my FW bags have holes punched in them.

The total absence of the adhesive label with barcode and product name is a good clue, as is the casters own reference written on the bag in neon pink marker! (That's not unusual either, I'm sure I've had a bag with that same shade of pink on it too, just can't remember from who.)

Possibly Rip Taylor? Was there confetti in the bag?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The holes appear in the photograph I posted before. That might be an identifying feature of a fake bag? Or a recast at least. I can't say any of my FW bags have holes punched in them.

The total absence of the adhesive label with barcode and product name is a good clue, as is the casters own reference written on the bag in neon pink marker! (That's not unusual either, I'm sure I've had a bag with that same shade of pink on it too, just can't remember from who.)

Lots of large Forge World models come in FW-branded bags with no label, inside the box. As with the actual recasts discussion, I can't see any way to tell from that photo whether those bags are genuine FW bags or if someone's gone to the effort of duplicating them.

 daedalus wrote:

Alternatively still, they might just be trying to save money. That really confuses me what with that we, for some reason, point at a corporation whenever they do something even vaguely shady, "bad", or anti-employee and say, "oh well, they have to do whatever they did because they HAVE to. They have an obligation to increase profit margins however they can", but then I see here that when we're talking about individuals, there becomes a function of morality present in the conversation. There are then values like "right" and "wrong" that are assigned to actions. I genuinely don't understand the difference. That could actually make me morally bereft or something. I don't know. Honestly, it's kinda probable, as I don't think I'd be that bothered by it even if someone did say I was.

I'm pretty much just reading the thread as a mildly interested observer, but I find this point really interesting. I'd not thought of it that way before.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's literally pennies worth of resin. Selling even two models at their current price is enough to pay for the sculptors time unless they are running a money laundering racket. But Forge World have cottoned on that this hobby has a rabid and less than intelligent fanbase (on average) who are willing to pay out the nose for said pennies of resin.

This is a bit extreme. We know that FW (and GW) make what can only be described as a healthy profit, but they do have a large infrastructure to keep running. You know, everything from keeping the power on to paying the land tax rates and paying the cleaner. It's not reasonable to expect to pay for "the sculptor's time" (and that's a lot more then 2 models!) and the raw materials and not much else.

On that point, the recasters are obviously making a healthy profit as well, yet I don't see people bitching about how the recasters are ripping off their customers with their high prices. How much does a recast titan cost? A couple of hundred bucks? Surely that's still a lot more than the raw material cost of the resin, and Chinese labour?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedSarge wrote:
I've been meaning to do an in depth exposure on recasting for some time on my blog. I've been away from the hobby for some time now and as a result my priorities have changed. Be sure the recasting of expensive models is s lucrative and persistent business

Not to be a dick, but please get someone to proof-edit it before you post it up. You keep using the wrong words and poor grammar, and like it or not, these factors do impact on your argument because they impact on readability and ability to fully comprehend what your points are - and by extension, your credibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

So my using the word "cheap" is a deal breaker but you can make a generalization relying on whattaboutism as a means to attack the other side? Oh, and you can't even give examples of what these "probable" misdeeds are, you just assume they are occurring in others as a way to justify what ultimately becomes a selfish drive to get something for cheaper than it normally costs. Forgive me if I find your outrage a bit disingenuous, especially considering your antagonistic tone throughout the thread, including calling for an imminent lock on page 2.

Clearly the implication is that pretty much everyone has downloaded or traded or played movies or TV shows or music or games without any moral quandries. This isn't restricted to downloading GoT last week, or even the days of Napster, but goes back decades - for me in the 1990s when I happily bought 90 minute blank cassettes to give to older friends who taped things like The Ramones and Dead Kennedys for me to listen to. I had quite the collection of pirated Amiga, PC and even PS1 games back in the day. Even Metallica got in on the act. Of course, there are always a few people who claim that they never did any of that, but copyright infringement in such a manner is so pervasive that pretty much nobody believes them when they make that claim. Of course, I *never* inhaled, but why would you believe me?

And again, "cutting the legs off the high horse" is such ridiculous speech, and is indicative to me that you feel what you are doing is "wrong" even if you want to try and argue that it isn't. I'd be more convinced by your convictions, and the convictions of others arguing your side of the position, if you all just owned it. Just say you want to save money. Don't argue that prices are too high, don't argue that this is a legal grey area, don't argue anything other than you want to avoid paying full retail price, or collectors prices, for models you feel entitled to. Because that is what it is. Entitlement. These being luxury items no one needs them, or is owed them. We just want them.

Here's a huge problem with your argument. It's the loaded speech in it. The discussion of "Entitlement" in particular. It would be more accurate to say that people buy recasts (or pirate games, TV, etc) (largely) because that's what they're willing or able to pay, and because they want the thing. Arguing "entitled" really weakens your argument, because that word really does have a significant meaning - and we do see some people making arguments that could be described in that way here. But to go back to my Ramones and Dead Kennedys or PC game or whatever examples. I didn't pirate those things because I felt "well, I should be able to have this without paying for it. music needs to be free, man!" or some bs like that. It was very much on a pragmatic level. I have this much money. I want that thing. I'll get that thing for this money. I suspect that the process is similar for more people than those who feel that they're "entitled" to anything. I'm entitled to health care because that's part of the democracy that I live in. I'm entitled to a certain quality of service from my cable/internet/whatever provider as I pay a predetermined fee for a predetermined level of service. I'm entitled to have all of the parts inside my FW orders in good order because i paid good money for them (and FW has great service, so they're good at fixing their mistakes). If I were to buy a bunch of recasts, then it'd be because I wanted this thing for that price. Not because I felt "entitled" to it.

Keep using the rest of your argument because it's valid. Stop using the word "entitled" as a broad motivation because you have no way to know or understand what other people's motivations are unless they tell you. Wanting to own a thing and wanting to save money doing it doesn't equal "entitled". It might be "cheap", but it's not "entitled".



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 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Guv, nobody in customs or the police cares enough about someone replicating toy soldiers to do drug raid style seizures of resin krack. Christ, they barely care when someone reports actual theft of thousands of dollars of models. I've never heard of a single recaster packaging stuff up in FW imitation bags, and out of probably over a dozen threads on the topic, you're the first to ever claim it that I've seen.

It's a valid corollary for conversation from the main subject though, I should think (namely how to spot a recast). So where did you hear/see that recasters were going to plastic bag makers and having imitation FW ones churned out? Can we get some pictures? If so, perhaps we can try and figure out how to spot fake FW bags as well.

I think a reasonable point is that someone who doesn't buy a lot of recast stuff and isn't around it regularly probably doesn't know as much about how it's packaged as those who do buy it and are around it. People like to think they know more than they do, and it's often very bruising to the ego to admit that you're not as well versed in something as you think you are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

When asked why you buy pirated copies of anything, the only legitimate answer is "because it is cheap." What is obnoxious is when people try to justify their purchase by criticizing the pricing of the legitimate items, or griping that OOP collectors items aren't being made so no one is harmed when cheap knock offs flood the market. Those are bs excuses used to make the person feel better about doing something they know is, at best, morally ambiguous.

That is what I am calling out. The deflection. I don't care what you do with your money. Just don't give me a story about how you are justifying your actions in order to save some coin.

I'm not fussed about the "collector's market" argument for OOP models. I have no qualms about people buying recasts of unavailable models, and I'm a guy who (legitimately, if there was some confusion) owns quite a few limited edition, unreleased and otherwise unavailable models. It doesn't hurt me personally, and I think people who speculate on toy soldiers are the scum of the earth.

And we know that the pricing of legitimate items does have an effect on the desirability of recasts. Several people here have said that Start Collecting made buying recasts of certain models pointless because the legitimate models are now just as cheap/cheaper or close enough to the recast option. Presumably using discounters, but legit is legit. It's the Netflix/Steam Sale effect again. Ease of use and price at a certain level beats the hassle of piracy every time. I went through several years of pretty much boycotting new GW products and concentrating on classic stuff via eBay, secondhand stuff, and stuff from other manufacturers - both "proxy" models (Eisenkern, some of Mantic's stuff, AoW, Shieldwolf) and other games entirely (Bolt Action, KoW, X-Wing, etc) - and the odd FW purchase, given that FW prices compared favourably to AU retail(!). Now that Start Collecting and other value bundles are a thing (ranging from Death Masque to Gangs of Commoragh) I could build a cubby house big enough for me to sleep in using only Start Collecting boxes that I've purchased.

Price of the legitimate stuff matters. Whether you're talking about lapsed customers or people buying recasts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Good, because any attempt at ethical justification would just be a self-serving rationalization of your selfishness and lack of moral standards.

gak like this makes me laugh hard, though. Perspective, my friend. Perspective.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
- Double Mold Lines
- Thin parts
- Squared edges are bowed inwards
- Anything square has a depression as the parts are not cast in high quality RTV silicone, often a cheap yellow or purple colored rubber mold. This can be described as concave depressions leading to all edges being peaked and sharp
- Transparent parts
- Horrible solvent smell that persist even after degreasing and washing
- Base material made from a different plastic than standard

All of this was already debunked in this thread.

Can we just lock it up?

Yeah it's just going around in circles and since I have legit FW models with literally half of the above problems spreading more rumors like that isn't helping anyone. Not that Dakka is democracy but my vote is for a good locking also.

EDIT: Ignore this post, thought I spotted a flaw in the bags, but upon reflection, I think it was just my imagination.

Why are there so many requests to lock this thread? Am I missing something?

 B Stores wrote:
Why are there so many requests to lock this thread? Am I missing something?

Because every recast thread on Dakka degenerates into the same point / counterpoint echo chamber regardless of the starting topic

But couldn't that be said of any thread?
What is the point in having a forum, if things cannot be discussed?

(Not trying to be difficult; I'm new here. And humans confuse me at the best of times...!)

 B Stores wrote:
But couldn't that be said of any thread?
What is the point in having a forum, if things cannot be discussed?

(Not trying to be difficult; I'm new here. And humans confuse me at the best of times...!)

The problem is that the moderators are always locking the last thread.

Forums. Forums never change.


....

...until they do. Remember when Chapterhouse and Scibor and HiTech were the immoral parasites profiting off of GW's hard-built IP? Haven't seen that side of that argument in half a decade now.

I think it died about the time Games Workshop C&D'd 'Spots the Space Marine' and claimed they'd invented the grenade launcher in court.

 whalemusic360 wrote:


Most legit FW bags have holes in them as well (about the size of a standard notebook punch, usually still hanging on), in order to let the extra air out for packing.

The holes are to stop you (or a child) asphyxiating if you put it on your head. They tend to be present on most bags (ie carrier bags) where an airtight close isn't a necessary feature.