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Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/15 22:21:34


Post by: Grimskul


So at this point, most Ork players have dug their teef into the meat of our index and figured out most of the workings and gubbinz that makes our army tick. One of the great things is the rise of the boyz as the bread and butter of our army. Unfortunately, it also means some of the glaring issues for some of our other units are clearly shown, like Meganobz and Burna Boyz.

So what would your ideal fixes be?

For me personally?

New Army-Wide rule:

Dakka Dakka Dakka!: Ork firepower is known less for its accuracy and more for the sheer amount of ammunition that is expended upon the foe, making it so even evasive manoeuvres and force field technology or armour are overwhelmed in the onslaught. All Ork units ignore any enemy caused ballistic skill modifiers that are applied in the shooting phase.

Weapon Price Changes (this list is non-comprehensive, these are the one that came to mind for me):

PK - 12 points
Killsaw - 15 points
Big Choppa - 5 points
Kustom Shoota - 2 points
Rokkit Launchas - 8 points
Big Shoota - 4 points
Skorcha - 10 points
Pair of Rokkit pistols - 8 points
Rack of Rokkits/Kopta Rokkits - 12 points
Supa Shoota - 5 points
Dred Klaw/Each subsequent Dred Klaw - 20/10 points
Skorcha Missile - 10 points
Kombi-Skorcha - 10 points
Kombi- Rokkit - 10 points

Change cybork bodies to being a 5+ invulnerable save. Make it available as 5 points per model for units and 10 points for characters. Warbosses, Nob with WAAAGH! Banner, Big Meks, Mekboyz, Painboyz and Weirdboyz have access to it. For non character units, Flash Gitz, Nobz and Meganobz have access to it.

Psychic Powers:

Change 'Eadbanger to having you roll off with the strength of the weirdboy +D6 versus the chosen opposing model's strength +d6. If the Weirdboy wins, the chosen opposing model suffers D6 mortal wounds. Double the range to 18".

HQ's:

Painboyz - No longer have to take the Power Klaw as a mandatory weapon.

Big Mek - Add the rule "Dakkaboss", all friendly Ork units with 6" of him can re-roll failed to hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase. Makes it so he can actually hit with his SAG and give him more utility to make actually shooty Ork lists. Shokk Attack Gun is now 2D6 shots instead of just D6.

Kaptin Badrukk - Change it so he makes Flash Gitz re-roll failed wound rolls of 1 instead. Make it so that this ability applies to himself and units inside with him even while occupying a transport.


Troops:

Boyz are good as is. Give the option for 'eavy armour back for 2 ppm. Also, just change the PL down to 4 for the starting number of 10 and then up by 3 for another 10 and another 3 for the last 10 Orks.

Gretchin should be 2 ppm.

Elites:

Meganobz - The price cut should help with their cost issues. They do, however, have issues with competing against normal Nobz in finding a niche that isn't already filled. Maybe make them big game hunters similar to Ironjaw Brutes? Give them +1 to hit in CC versus models with 3 wounds and higher?

Tankbustas - The new cost for rokkits make them 14 ppm, which is much more reasonable. Give them the option to also take 'eavy armour for 2 ppm.

Burna Boyz - Drop them down to 12 ppm and change their burna to D6 hits rather than D3.

Nob Bikerz - Drop them down to 30 ppm. If they get the exhaust cloud rule back which causes enemy shots to have a -1 to hit modifier against them in shooting make them 34 ppm.

Kommandos - Let them swap their choppas/sluggas for shootas for free

Dedicated Transports:

Trukk - Down to 55 points a pop

Fast Attack:

Lower Blitza Bomber, Burna Bomber and Wazbomb Blastajet costs each by 20 points.

Lower Deffkopta cost down to 40.

Warbikers need to be recosted to 20 points a bike, or have their exhaust cloud rule back which makes enemies have a -1 to hit modifier against them and cost 24 points a bike.

Warbuggies down to 35 points. Skorchas to 40.

Heavy Support:

Killa Kanz - Give them Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers rule instead, for when they have 3 or more members. Reduce base cost to 45 points. Change Grotzookas to be Assault 2D3.

Deff Dred - Make them movement 8" base. They can also advance and charge. If you give them all dred claws, they add +3" to their advance rolls.

Gorkanaut - Deffstorm Mega Shoota is 6D6 shots instead. Big and Stompy gives it a +1 to hit modifier when in close combat.

Morkanaut - Gets Big and Shooty special rule which gives it a +1 to hit modifier with its to hit rolls in the shooting phase in addition to ignoring the penalty modifier for moving and shooting heavy weapons.

Battlewagon - Reduce price point down to 140. Make it so mobile fortress allows the passengers to ignore negative modifiers for moving and shooting heavy weapons. 'Ard case also changes its save to a 3+ in addition to making it T8.

Flash Gitz - Gain a 4+ armour base and reduce its price point down to 23 points a model.

Lootas - Price point down to 14 points a model, give option to upgrade to 'eavy armour for 3 ppm.

Mek Gunz - KMK weapon price down to 20, Bubble Chukka down to 25 points, Traktor Kannon should give a +1 to hit against targets with the FLY keyword and gain D3 shots instead of 1, the Smasha Gun also does D3 shots.

Big Gunz - Mainly price drops for weapons, 10 points for Kannon, 12 points for Zzap Gun, 10 for Lobba

Lords of War:

Stompa - Needs a huuuuge price cut. Down to 700 points area. Make the Supa-Gatler 3D6 shots and have it deal 2 damage for each shot. Change the Deffkannon to be 2D6 shots base, with it increasing to 3D6 shots against units that are 10 or more in size. Make the slash option of the Mega Choppa to deal 3 flat damage instead of D3. Remove the limit of only firing 1 supa-rokkit a turn.

Those are the first thoughts I have in mind, what about yours?





Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/15 23:04:24


Post by: JNAProductions


Seems a bit too much, altogether.

I understand wanting orks better-but this takes them from decent to OP.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/15 23:19:56


Post by: Grimskul


 JNAProductions wrote:
Seems a bit too much, altogether.

I understand wanting orks better-but this takes them from decent to OP.


Hm, I can definitely see why this comes off as wishlisting (we'll be lucky if we get even a quarter of these suggestions through), but is there any area in particular that seems too much? I'm still a little unsure about the Dakka Dakka Dakka! armywide rule, given that it makes our assault weapons pretty crazy. But at the same time, Orks really get gimped by negative modifiers to shooting, since even one -1 to hit modifier cuts our effective shooting by 50%.

A lot of the problem areas I've covered are the units you really never see outside of casual games: meganobz, deffkoptas, burna boyz, most of our walkers. Right now, competitively speaking, its mainly boyz, stormboyz and kommandos that are competitive. Necrons are one of the few armies that don't handle Ork armour well given their own weakness against vehicles. Generally speaking a LOT of our stuff is overpriced right now which is why you see so many price cuts across the board. Even Mob Rule basically only matters for boyz right now.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/15 23:53:51


Post by: znelson


I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/16 00:16:09


Post by: Grimskul


 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.


Right. But you have to understand that at the same time, even with the rule, we're only hitting on 5's the vast majority of the time. There's very few units outside of grots (who are known for better aim) who can hit better than that, other than Flash Gitz who are known for spending inordinate amounts of time shooting and spending on shooty bitz. Unless you want to double all of our shooting output to compensate. All Dakka Dakka Dakka does is make it so our shooting largely stays at hitting on 5's now that negative modifiers for shooting are becoming more commonplace. Just as I mentioned to JNAproductions, even just one -1 modifier makes it so our guys lose 50% of shooting efficiency. Any more and our Ork units can't actually hit you.

Keep in mind that we have to pay for gitfindas (and even then only for certain units) and at best it makes us hit on 4's. We still rely on mass firepower to produce results. We have no aura re-roll buff unlike marines. It's not as bad as it looks.

I have changed Dakka Dakka Dakka! however to specify only against enemy modifiers against shooting.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/16 01:13:04


Post by: JimOnMars


 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.


The problem is not that we are bad at shooting, it is that our point costs should reflect that. Like it or not, our total output for the same gun is half that of a marine. The point cost should be just over half for these units.

Dakka Dakka Dakka would offset the game mechanic where a unit is "-1 to hit." These units penalize a BS5+ army far harder than any other (our shooting output is cut in half.) Because "-1 to hit" is doled out like candy we need something to compensate.

Or, reduce the point costs assuming BS 5-1/2 + for all units, so instead of half a marine's cost it needs to be 3/8th.



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/16 07:35:51


Post by: Waaaghpower


Here's a pretty problematic thing:
Lootas are currently one of our better units with shooting. Not great, but not bad. Point-for-point, they put out similar damage output to Havocs with Assault cannons. The problem with them is that they're fragile, and that they are hit harder by penalties to their BS. but... Well...
They currently cost 17ppm. With your changes, that same 17ppm gets me a Loota with a Gitfinda.
Then I take a Big Mek, who's got a SAG and a Gitfinda for giggles.

Now, those Lootas are hitting on 3s with no penalties regardless of what I'm shooting at. You've just doubled their firepower and quadrupled it against fliers and anything else with a -1 to hit.

This also applies to Tankbustas, who go from being 'Our best shooting unit' to 'Easily outshooting most actual shooty armies', with S8 AP-2 D3 shots that hit 8/9ths of the time against any target.


In fact, the Big Mek buff alone is *ridiculously* powerful, especially with the massive point cost cuts you're throwing around like candy. Currently, at 27ppm, we're getting 2 Dakkagun hits per Warbike, or 13.5 points per hit.
With your changes, we'd be getting 3 Dakkagun hits per Warbike, and a much cheaper warbike, making it 5.3 points per hit - Less than half the cost per hit. (And we already are buying the Big Mek so we can bring a Kustom Force Field, so it's not like that buff is costing anything extra.)

Similarly, the Stompa getting a massive increase in Firepower, a massive increase in Accuracy, AND a 20% point cut all at the same time is far too good.



Basically, you're taking a codex that is underwhelming, and doubling the effectiveness of most of its shooty units. Orks shouldn't be the best army in the game at gunlines, but your 'fixes' would give us all Space Marine levels of accuracy for extremely low points costs.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/16 10:55:58


Post by: Blackie


The giftinda that adds +1 to the BS is too much. IMHO it could be nice if it acts like a buffing aura, like giving the re-roll of missed hits of 1s to friendly orks units within 6'' or 9'', something like that. That +1 BS is too powerful.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/16 14:21:41


Post by: Grimskul


Thanks for all the feedback so far! In hindsight, I forgot how potentially broken the Big Mek + Gitfinda buffed units could be,
so the gitfindas are removed as option now. Personally, I felt that 3" range would somewhat limit his utility for shooting buffs, since that means you have to really bunch up, but I guess he's cheap enough to spam so it's too exploitable.

Also changed the Dakkaboss rule to re-rolling failed to hit rolls of 1. Personally, I felt that the +1BS buff he gave initially was something different and more meaningful than the generic re-roll one's aura that everyone gets, but I guess it's too stark a buff without a significant points upgrade.

I've take out the +1 to hit modifiers for the Stompa and at 700 points. Everything else I've left the same because otherwise it really isn't worth taking over two gorkanauts/morkanauts. Multiple Imperial Knights have far more survivability without outside investment and reliable similar damage output. So it costing around a little less than double of them seems about right.



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/17 16:45:32


Post by: jeff white


Why can't a warboss in mega armor have an attack squig?


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/17 20:23:20


Post by: lolman1c


 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.


Where do people even get this idea from?!?! The lore doesn't support it! There are thousands of orks who love to shoot and are pretty good at it!


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/17 20:36:17


Post by: Grimskul


 lolman1c wrote:
 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.


Where do people even get this idea from?!?! The lore doesn't support it! There are thousands of orks who love to shoot and are pretty good at it!


It's because they assume since we have 5+ to hit that we automatically should do terribly in shooting, despite the fact that Orks are known for being excessive with dakka. It's not so much that Orks are bad at shooting, it's that many don't care at how well they do and Ork weaponry is crude, not ineffective. Orks really get the short end of the stick now that twin-linked is just double the amount of shots since now many armies besides Orks have sources of re-roll to hit auras and having more shots makes it better for other armies in putting out the hurt while Orks actually do worse due to all the negative modifiers flying around (just look at the recent books being released, all the factions have a trait/dogma where you have a -1 to hit penalty in shooting.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/17 20:55:12


Post by: Kroem


he lore doesn't support it!

I'm not so sure about that, to quote the entry for Shoota Boys from the 3rd ed codex...
"Each Ork will try to outdo his neighbour by letting fly with the most ammo or the loudest gun, Hitting the target is less of an objective than terrorising the enemy!"

That said, just beacuse shooting isn't an Ork strength doesn't mean it should be absolutely useless. The -1BS modifier for flying machines is massively painful to an Ork army and I quite like the proposed 'Dakka, Dakka, Dakka' rule as an elegant and flavourful way of mitigating this problem.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/17 21:00:55


Post by: lolman1c


 Kroem wrote:
he lore doesn't support it!

I'm not so sure about that, to quote the entry for Shoota Boys from the 3rd ed codex...
"Each Ork will try to outdo his neighbour by letting fly with the most ammo or the loudest gun, Hitting the target is less of an objective than terrorising the enemy!"

That said, just beacuse shooting isn't an Ork strength doesn't mean it should be absolutely useless. The -1BS modifier for flying machines is massively painful to an Ork army and I quite like the proposed 'Dakka, Dakka, Dakka' rule as an elegant and flavourful way of mitigating this problem.


Honestly that lore supports my claim! They love to shoot! It doesn't matter if the thing is fast, cloaked or flying! They just shoot lots and lots at it! They love shooting! So the rule that it wouldn't effect them is pretty accurate as they would have the same chance as hitting it as they did before!


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/18 01:04:21


Post by: JimOnMars


 Grimskul wrote:
 lolman1c wrote:
 znelson wrote:
I think "dakka dakka dakka" as written is too much. I also think the gitfinda is a bad idea.

Orks are supposed to be bad at shooting. That's not a mistake that needs to be corrected. If units are overcosted that's a different issue.


Where do people even get this idea from?!?! The lore doesn't support it! There are thousands of orks who love to shoot and are pretty good at it!


It's because they assume since we have 5+ to hit that we automatically should do terribly in shooting, despite the fact that Orks are known for being excessive with dakka. It's not so much that Orks are bad at shooting, it's that many don't care at how well they do and Ork weaponry is crude, not ineffective. Orks really get the short end of the stick now that twin-linked is just double the amount of shots since now many armies besides Orks have sources of re-roll to hit auras and having more shots makes it better for other armies in putting out the hurt while Orks actually do worse due to all the negative modifiers flying around (just look at the recent books being released, all the factions have a trait/dogma where you have a -1 to hit penalty in shooting.


It's not so much that others think orks should be bad at shooting, it's that they think we should be bad at shooting but costed as if we were good. Which is what we are now. A rack of rockets (assault 2) for 28 points? At BS5+? Seriously??


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/18 12:50:06


Post by: Dannohawk


I totally agree with Grimskul. In a straight up competitive match your only option really is massed assault: weirdboys teleporting groups of boys around, with stormboy deep strikes and infiltrating kommandos. I mean why would you ever take walkers and vehicles which enemy armies can easily neutralise, compared to only losing one 6 point boy per lascannon shot.

I like the green tide idea, but In the end it's all about variety, if you make more units viable Orks are going to be more fun to play against and you'll never know what you're going to see on the table. It would be great to see fully mechanised mad Max style Gorka Morka mobs tearing up the table, or bizarre misfiring grot gun lines backed up by reasonably priced meks and stompers.

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/19 03:18:51


Post by: Hard Hat


This thread inspired me to come up with some Ork Stratagems I'd like to see:

General Stratagems

1-3 CP - 'Ardboyz: In the deployment phase, you can declare a unit of Boyz as 'Ardboyz. They receive +1 Toughness and +1 Armor Save, but must subtract 3 from Advance and Charge rolls to a minimum of 1. This stratagem costs 1 CP per 10 Boyz in the squad.

(Meant for running Boyz with a Trukk/Battlewagon)

2 CP - Rammin' Speed: in the charge phase, you can declare that a vehicle will attempt a ram when charging against another vehicle. If the charge is successful, both players roll a D6 and add their vehicle's toughness. The player with the higher result takes D3 mortal wounds, while the player with the lower result takes D6 mortal wounds.

2 CP - Get Outta My Way!: in the movement phase, you can issue a retreat to a vehicle currently locked in combat with infantry, allowing the vehicle to move through the enemy infantry models, as long as the vehicle ends its move further than 1" away. The infantry unit then takes D3 mortal wounds.

(Allows for breakouts for surrounded vehicles)

3 CP - It's Ours Now!: In the fight phase, you can declare that Ork infantry unit can attempt to board an enemy vehicle to claim it as their own, rather than attacking. Pick an enemy vehicle; for every Ork infantry model in melee range of that vehicle, roll a D6. If the number resulting rolls of 5+ is greater than the number of wounds remaining in the vehicle, the Orks storm the driver's seat and take control. You now have control of that vehicle with those remaining wounds for the rest of the battle or until the vehicle is destroyed. Meks and Big Meks add +1 to their rolls.

Bad Moonz Stratagems

1-3 CP - Rich Gitz: In the deployment phase, you can declare a unit of Boyz as Rich Gitz. They replace any Shootas in the squad with Kustom Shootas. This stratagem costs 1 CP per 10 Boyz in the squad.

1 CP - Sphesul Ammo: In the shooting phase, you can declare a unit will use their custom armor piercing ammunition. Add -1 AP to the unit's ranged weapons until the end of the phase.


Blood Axe Stratagems

1-3 CP - Sneaky Gitz: In the deployment phase, you can declare a unit of Boyz as Sneaky Gitz. Rather than deploy normally, they can placed on the battlefield at the end of any of your movement phases more than 11" away from enemy units.. This stratagem costs 1 CP per 10 Boyz in the squad.

2 CP - Booby Trap: At the start of one of your opponent's movement phases, you can declare that an enterprising Ork sapper has laid a cunning trap before the battle. For the rest of the game, roll a D6 for every time an enemy unit advances or charges. on a 6, the enemy unit has triggered the booby trap, and takes D3 mortal wounds. If the unit consists of 10 or more models, it takes D6 instead. The booby trap can only be triggered once.




Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/19 13:50:30


Post by: Shrapnelbait


It would b nice nice to get some new units that were the equivilant of some of the space marine stuff. The Stormraven is basically a flying tank that can transport more than the transports. Can you imagine what the orks could do with a flying Battlewagon that could transport a Deff Dred and move 20-40"?

It would be nice if the Lootas removed the 1d3 for the whole squad so that you got a more even average of the number of shots.

What if Flash Gitz had Rapid fire guns instead of heavy, and removed the weird shoot again on 6's. That would also allow them to move into range without penalty, and if they were really close (too close) to the enemy they get more shots to land, kind of a shotgun scatter effect.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/19 21:30:53


Post by: lolman1c


Dannohawk wrote:
I totally agree with Grimskul. In a straight up competitive match your only option really is massed assault: weirdboys teleporting groups of boys around, with stormboy deep strikes and infiltrating kommandos. I mean why would you ever take walkers and vehicles which enemy armies can easily neutralise, compared to only losing one 6 point boy per lascannon shot.

I like the green tide idea, but In the end it's all about variety, if you make more units viable Orks are going to be more fun to play against and you'll never know what you're going to see on the table. It would be great to see fully mechanised mad Max style Gorka Morka mobs tearing up the table, or bizarre misfiring grot gun lines backed up by reasonably priced meks and stompers.

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.


Dude, our Stomboyz don't have deep strike! Basically the only jet pack unit in the game not to....


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/19 22:11:21


Post by: Dannohawk


 lolman1c wrote:
Dannohawk wrote:
I totally agree with Grimskul. In a straight up competitive match your only option really is massed assault: weirdboys teleporting groups of boys around, with stormboy deep strikes and infiltrating kommandos. I mean why would you ever take walkers and vehicles which enemy armies can easily neutralise, compared to only losing one 6 point boy per lascannon shot.

I like the green tide idea, but In the end it's all about variety, if you make more units viable Orks are going to be more fun to play against and you'll never know what you're going to see on the table. It would be great to see fully mechanised mad Max style Gorka Morka mobs tearing up the table, or bizarre misfiring grot gun lines backed up by reasonably priced meks and stompers.

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.


Dude, our Stomboyz don't have deep strike! Basically the only jet pack unit in the game not to....


Ha! Thanks man. Well for only 8 points a boy it's a sacrifice I'm happy to make. They'd be probably be OP otherwise. I've only just brought mine so I haven't tested them out on the field yet, I'll be using da jump instead then.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/19 22:37:56


Post by: Kap'n Krump


 Grimskul wrote:


PK - 12 points
Killsaw - 15 points
Big Choppa - 5 points
Kustom Shoota - 2 points
Rokkit Launchas - 8 points
Big Shoota - 4 points
Skorcha - 10 points
Pair of Rokkit pistols - 8 points
Rack of Rokkits/Kopta Rokkits - 12 points
Supa Shoota - 5 points
Dred Klaw/Each subsequent Dred Klaw - 20/10 points
Skorcha Missile - 10 points
Kombi-Skorcha - 10 points
Kombi- Rokkit - 10 points



I think 12 point klaws are optimistic. A fair point cost for str 10 klaws would be 14, because IG str 6 fists are 10, and marine str 8 fists are 12.

Ogryn brute mauls are literally identical to big choppas, but are 7 points. That's pretty reasonable.

As much as I'd like to see skorchas get cheaper, it's not going to happen. If marine heavy flamers are still 17 (and they are), you know ork ones aren't getting any cheaper. Similarly, I doubt rokkits are getting much cheaper.

At the VERY least, I'd like to see us not have to pay more than double for our twin weapons (while marines pay sometimes FAR less than double for theirs).

Overall, the biggest standouts to me in the ork codex are:

Deff dreads are about the same price as imperial dreads, but have objectively worse shooting and melee (str 5 v str 6). Need a bit of a points cut. (example: a marine dread with assault cannon costs 133 points, has 6x str 6 ap1 shots that generally hit on 4s, 4x str 12 D3 attacks. A deff dread with 2x big shootas costs 131 points, has 6x str 5 AP0 shots that hit on 5s, and 4x str 10 D3 attacks).

Orkanauts are decent-ish, but their shooting is embarrassingly bad. Probably need double the shots they have now to be ok.

Close combat invulnerable saves, but that's never coming back, so hardly worth mentioning.

Flash gitz need either better armor or better range. I wouldn't mind seeing more shots to boot. Obliterators got double shots for free, what if snazzguns became rapid fire 2 (or 3)?

Stompas are dumpster fires. Even at 700 points, I'm not sure they'd be worth it. Maybe if, like orkanauts, they got double their current shooting.

Our open-topped vehicles need to benefit assault somehow. Currently, they are no better than a rhino in that regard (despite being same cost, worse T and save), which makes them basically not worth taking, ever, except maybe for dedicated shooting units. Getting to move before disembarking would be HUUUUGLY OP, but still, they could use something.

Oh yeah, and ramshackle for all ork vehicles would seem fair to me (looking at YOU, quantum shielding).

Mega/nobz are honestly pretty decent imo, ridiculously overpriced melee weapons notwithstanding.

Like you mentioned with dakkaboss, I'd kind of like to see something that helps our shooting, even if it's not really my thing. A rule, or aura, or character, or something. But while some armies who will remain nameless get an entire army of rerolling all hits and wounds at ranged AND melee, all we've got is baddruk, who only lets flash gitz reroll 1s. On that topic, I wouldn't mind some kind of melee reroll, but we do have banners, which are pretty solid.

In all honesty, though, I'm pretty sure the only thing I'm almost certain of is that they'll nerf KMKs from D6 shots to D3.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/20 08:42:11


Post by: lolman1c


Dude, they better not nerf that KMK! It's our only thing that is worth taking and yet it's still nowhere near as good as some marines weapons! If they made it d3 it would cripple most our force and mape things like the Mork useless!


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/20 14:42:43


Post by: Kap'n Krump


 lolman1c wrote:
Dude, they better not nerf that KMK! It's our only thing that is worth taking and yet it's still nowhere near as good as some marines weapons! If they made it d3 it would cripple most our force and mape things like the Mork useless!


It's good, effective, cheap, and better than marine plasma cannons. Therefore, it must be nerfed!

I'm honestly waiting for them to make power klaws MORE expensive, just so I can get suuuuuuuuuuuuper pissed off about it. Can't wait!


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/20 15:21:49


Post by: mhalko1


 Kap'n Krump wrote:
 lolman1c wrote:
Dude, they better not nerf that KMK! It's our only thing that is worth taking and yet it's still nowhere near as good as some marines weapons! If they made it d3 it would cripple most our force and mape things like the Mork useless!


It's good, effective, cheap, and better than marine plasma cannons. Therefore, it must be nerfed!

I'm honestly waiting for them to make power klaws MORE expensive, just so I can get suuuuuuuuuuuuper pissed off about it. Can't wait!


yeah but over the course of a game I've never not landed at least 4 mortal wounds on myself. Especially if you get lucky and roll high for the number of shots. 4/18 wounds, that's pretty bad. i've had some games where I do a little more but thats over 1/5th his wounds caused by himself. never really used it on mek gunz yet though


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/20 16:26:02


Post by: Skuzbag


Yeah, orks should be able to disembark after moving. Bring back red paint job.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/20 17:17:33


Post by: Breng77


 Skuzbag wrote:
Yeah, orks should be able to disembark after moving. Bring back red paint job.


Only if they make it so that you only get the 3" disembark, otherwise it is way too powerful.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/20 22:20:29


Post by: Kap'n Krump


Breng77 wrote:
 Skuzbag wrote:
Yeah, orks should be able to disembark after moving. Bring back red paint job.


Only if they make it so that you only get the 3" disembark, otherwise it is way too powerful.


Yeah, moving ~12", disembarking 3", and getting normal move, and then potentially an advance and charge, is legitimately broken.

I mean, if they just added boarding planks back to give 2 or 3" to charge ranges after disembarking, that would probably be fine.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/22 08:44:06


Post by: Blackie


 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
 Skuzbag wrote:
Yeah, orks should be able to disembark after moving. Bring back red paint job.


Only if they make it so that you only get the 3" disembark, otherwise it is way too powerful.


Yeah, moving ~12", disembarking 3", and getting normal move, and then potentially an advance and charge, is legitimately broken.

I mean, if they just added boarding planks back to give 2 or 3" to charge ranges after disembarking, that would probably be fine.


I think assault vehicles should have the option to disembark the crew after their movement. Moving ~12", disembarking 3" and get the chance to assault sounds legitimate. Of course the crew couldn't move if they've been carried by the vehicle in the same turn. But I wish we could move the transport, disembark the unit inside, shoot, and then assault, essentially the 7th edition mechanic.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/22 11:05:14


Post by: Kroem


You can see why they changed it, in 7th every unit took a transport!

I think it would be cool if Orks had a transport that worked like the little gateways in AoS i.e. you move into it and out the other side.

You could call it a Nydus Squig or something and then you would really get boys popping up in funny places!


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/28 00:05:42


Post by: CaffeineIsGood


Dannohawk wrote:

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.


I'd love some gretchin snipers, a low-points elite shooting choice sounds great, bit like ratlings.

What i'd suggest is maybe have them shoot with with...
Grot Scope-Blasta: Heavy 18" 3S -1AP 1D
And then give them a special model like...
Grunt-Spotta: D6 models within unit can hit on 3+ against any enemy-unit within the visible to the unit, regardless of proximity (i.e. characters).

And for lols allow up to 2 stray-squigs in a unit of Gretchin that deal D3 attacks, but on a 1 it deals a wound to its own unit, the models exist in fantasy and it'd be great to import them in some regard.

Something like, but not quite, the dakkadakkadakka rule for shootas would be good, maybe if 20+ models are shooting the same unit they get a "lead-rain" ability that gives it some kind of boost, +1 against units out of cover, no idea just spitballing.

Similarly maybe something for the vehicles like "Snazziest Ride" could exist that provides a bonus to one vehicle a turn, i.e "My tank is da best, it's better than all these gitz", maybe a +1 save or +1BS or both.

Points wise, I'd like to see some cost reductions on Kustom-Shootas, dakkajets, power-klawz, and the mega-nobz.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/28 01:31:02


Post by: SemperMortis


CaffeineIsGood wrote:
Dannohawk wrote:

One personal wish is a unit of Gretchen snipers, with only 4s to hit but to mitigate that you have groups of 15 and mortal wounds on a 6.


I'd love some gretchin snipers, a low-points elite shooting choice sounds great, bit like ratlings.

What i'd suggest is maybe have them shoot with with...
Grot Scope-Blasta: Heavy 18" 3S -1AP 1D
And then give them a special model like...
Grunt-Spotta: D6 models within unit can hit on 3+ against any enemy-unit within the visible to the unit, regardless of proximity (i.e. characters).

And for lols allow up to 2 stray-squigs in a unit of Gretchin that deal D3 attacks, but on a 1 it deals a wound to its own unit, the models exist in fantasy and it'd be great to import them in some regard.

Something like, but not quite, the dakkadakkadakka rule for shootas would be good, maybe if 20+ models are shooting the same unit they get a "lead-rain" ability that gives it some kind of boost, +1 against units out of cover, no idea just spitballing.

Similarly maybe something for the vehicles like "Snazziest Ride" could exist that provides a bonus to one vehicle a turn, i.e "My tank is da best, it's better than all these gitz", maybe a +1 save or +1BS or both.

Points wise, I'd like to see some cost reductions on Kustom-Shootas, dakkajets, power-klawz, and the mega-nobz.


You want an elite, sniper unit of grots who have 18in rifles.....this right here is the problem with ork players, we have been crapped on so long and so often that the idea of an 18in sniper rifle seems good to you.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/28 04:26:40


Post by: techsoldaten


I agree with the idea of Dakka Dakka Dakka.

Ballistic Skill modifiers should not apply when the shooter is not really trying to hit something & just firing loudly in a certain direction. This would be a fluffy way to deal with the situation.

I was thinking an Ork equivalent to Legion Traits could also apply, given what they are going with AM and AdMech.

Goffs: Advance and charge.

Blood Axes: Ignore enemy modifiers on morale rolls.

Snakebites: Anything better than a shoota gets BS 4.

Evil Suns: Vehicle charges are 3d6.

Would love for someone to suggest more.










Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/28 04:33:52


Post by: JimOnMars


A possible Grot sniper would be any Big Gun or Mek Gun, but hits characters on a 6.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/28 15:16:23


Post by: CaffeineIsGood


You want an elite, sniper unit of grots who have 18in rifles.....this right here is the problem with ork players, we have been crapped on so long and so often that the idea of an 18in sniper rifle seems good to you.


I'd go as far 24", but I was thinking cheap and in terms of what a grot might have, I usually have some elite slots free in games so dirt-cheap shootas just to pepper a target might work in the right slot
Again spitballing, but grot snipers are described in the lore, so it'd be great to see.

A possible Grot sniper would be any Big Gun or Mek Gun, but hits characters on a 6.

I don't know we'd want to give up the heavy slot for a unit of them, but as a model in the unit (which i think you're implying) yeah i'd dig that, but I think I'd probably prefer the kannon.
Perhaps a unit of 5-10 grots with 18" rifles, could take a 2-3 man eldar-like weapon platform, like a 1Heavy 24" "git-blasta" that deals -2AP and D3 Damage.

Would love for someone to suggest more.

For Klan Traits I like the idea of
Bad Moonz: up to X nobz in a unit can replace their kustom-shoota with a snazzgun.
Snakebites: up to X ork boys in a unit can replace their weapons with a big choppa
Goffs: On any ork charge unit has +1 strength
Blood Axes: +1 Cover Save on all orks
Evil Suns: Vehicles get +X inches on charge & advance, provided the model is partially red
Death Skullz: Up to 1 guaranteed save a turn, on any model that is partially blue
Freebooters: Nobz get +1 BS, provided the model has more than 3 primary colours

For the 3rd time just spitballing, I look forward to seeing what special abilities the orks get, and fingers crossed some new models.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/28 16:23:07


Post by: Breng77


CaffeineIsGood wrote:
You want an elite, sniper unit of grots who have 18in rifles.....this right here is the problem with ork players, we have been crapped on so long and so often that the idea of an 18in sniper rifle seems good to you.


I'd go as far 24", but I was thinking cheap and in terms of what a grot might have, I usually have some elite slots free in games so dirt-cheap shootas just to pepper a target might work in the right slot
Again spitballing, but grot snipers are described in the lore, so it'd be great to see.

A possible Grot sniper would be any Big Gun or Mek Gun, but hits characters on a 6.

I don't know we'd want to give up the heavy slot for a unit of them, but as a model in the unit (which i think you're implying) yeah i'd dig that, but I think I'd probably prefer the kannon.
Perhaps a unit of 5-10 grots with 18" rifles, could take a 2-3 man eldar-like weapon platform, like a 1Heavy 24" "git-blasta" that deals -2AP and D3 Damage.

Would love for someone to suggest more.

For Klan Traits I like the idea of
Bad Moonz: up to X nobz in a unit can replace their kustom-shoota with a snazzgun.
Snakebites: up to X ork boys in a unit can replace their weapons with a big choppa
Goffs: On any ork charge unit has +1 strength
Blood Axes: +1 Cover Save on all orks
Evil Suns: Vehicles get +X inches on charge & advance, provided the model is partially red
Death Skullz: Up to 1 guaranteed save a turn, on any model that is partially blue
Freebooters: Nobz get +1 BS, provided the model has more than 3 primary colours

For the 3rd time just spitballing, I look forward to seeing what special abilities the orks get, and fingers crossed some new models.


I hope they don't go that way for Klan Traits, that would make us one of the weakest factions, further tying bonuses to paint jobs is bad design as it limits creativity. Only the Goff trait here seems decent, not great but decent.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/09/28 17:40:00


Post by: JimOnMars


CaffeineIsGood wrote:
A possible Grot sniper would be any Big Gun or Mek Gun, but hits characters on a 6.

I don't know we'd want to give up the heavy slot for a unit of them, but as a model in the unit (which i think you're implying) yeah i'd dig that, but I think I'd probably prefer the kannon.
Perhaps a unit of 5-10 grots with 18" rifles, could take a 2-3 man eldar-like weapon platform, like a 1Heavy 24" "git-blasta" that deals -2AP and D3 Damage.

I don't worry about slots anymore, in fact usually I want fewer slots (ie more detachments.)

It might be nice to use lobbas on some HQs, like we used to. Probably not celestine, rowboat, mortarion, etc. For them we need the almighty bubblechukka of doom!


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/02 03:38:46


Post by: CaffeineIsGood


I hope they don't go that way for Klan Traits, that would make us one of the weakest factions, further tying bonuses to paint jobs is bad design as it limits creativity. Only the Goff trait here seems decent, not great but decent


Okay so since those traits seem a little weak I've tried to elaborate from them that's not too OP

Snake Bites : Primeval Mindset
Lore: Having rejected many advancements in ork technology these boyz live for da hunt
+1 Weapon Skill against Tougher opponents, any boy/nob may discard their slugga/ranged-alternative for an additional attack.

Goffs : Mean Spirited
Lore: A klan of bullies like this relish in lopsided fighting, provided they're on top of course!
+1 Damage against less Tough opponents, +1 Strength on turn unit charged.

Deff Skullz : Objectively Lucky
Lore: Decorated in stolen charms and blue paint, these orks manifest their own good fortune
+1 to Save verses ranged attacks, May force opponent to reroll 1 die a turn.

Bad Moonz : Mo'Teef Mo'Dakka
Lore: Their grotz know how to get to good stuff at a discount
Nobz get free kustom-shootas, any Warboss may take a snazzgun, Boyz may take an additional 2 'eavy weapons.

Evil Suns : Blaze of Glory
Lore: Hurtling towards the enemy is better than walking.
Opponent rolls -1 Ballistic-Skill against vehicles that have moved 8"+ from their initial position, D3+ Attacks on charge from non-flying vehicles for self-inflicted Wound, vehicles with Explode can be triggered on 2+.

Blood Axes : Surprise Party
Lore: Some Opponents need to be tricked into a good time.
Can substitute up to two slots for 2 fortifications, + 1 Ballistic & Weapon Skill on any unit's deployment turn.

Freebooters : Unork'odox Approach
Toof grabbing rejects that thought they were too good for mainstream ork society.
4+ Ballistic Skill -2 Leadership on all ORK Infantry and Airborne units, +1 Leadership on Gretchin units.

Feel free to suggest how you'd do them, I'm pretty new to the game but I've always been a fan of the lore.



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/02 20:30:33


Post by: SemperMortis


Still crap for most of these traits. Blood axes, wtf?



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/02 22:00:06


Post by: JimOnMars


SemperMortis wrote:
Still crap for most of these traits. Blood axes, wtf?


Obviously the poster doesn't play blood axes.

Blood axes: -1 to hit.



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/02 22:20:35


Post by: lolman1c


After the ig codex i think we can now safely demand what ever we want!


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/06 09:45:20


Post by: wallygator


 Grimskul wrote:

Lords of War:

Stompa - Needs a huuuuge price cut. Down to 700 points area. Make the Supa-Gatler 3D6 shots and have it deal 2 damage for each shot. Change the Deffkannon to be 2D6 shots base, with it increasing to 3D6 shots against units that are 10 or more in size. Make the slash option of the Mega Choppa to deal 3 flat damage instead of D3. Remove the limit of only firing 1 supa-rokkit a turn.



I'm so disappointed by the stompa. Played against necron and he used the stompa 4turns against me, so he actually saw 9 or 10 gameturns that game and did absolutely nothing... not against him, not against me. It did not murdered squads completely in CC (and then they resurrect).. If you manage to throw 4+ shots with the deffkanon, you still have to hit and wound so you end up doing nothing instead of sending blobs of enemys in orbit. damn the lost 10" template...

This makes me wanna go even further than OP's wishlist because the stompa lacks ALOT of offensive power.
my stompa wishlist additions:
- 600 point MAX! (seems me to be inline with baneblade)
-reduce the randomness: 6+d6 shots for deffkanon for example (yeah, I know this is never going to happen)
-grott gunner rule variant, hits on 4+
-give him stomp attacks back
-fear special rule in CC



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/07 02:14:02


Post by: SemperMortis


I would take 2 Leviathan dreadnoughts over a stompa any day of the week and I would still have saved myself 400ish points easily.

Every gun on the Stompa is trash, the CC function is literally the only part worth mentioning, and ironically (Not kidding here) the stompa is now LESS durable then it was in 7th edition except against Melta, everything else it is LESS Durable.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/07 03:04:35


Post by: jeff white


 lolman1c wrote:
After the ig codex i think we can now safely demand what ever we want!


Safely cuz no one is listening.



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/09 13:09:31


Post by: wallygator


SemperMortis wrote:
I would take 2 Leviathan dreadnoughts over a stompa any day of the week and I would still have saved myself 400ish points easily.

Every gun on the Stompa is trash, the CC function is literally the only part worth mentioning, and ironically (Not kidding here) the stompa is now LESS durable then it was in 7th edition except against Melta, everything else it is LESS Durable.


my point exactly


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/09 13:28:56


Post by: Breng77


SemperMortis wrote:
I would take 2 Leviathan dreadnoughts over a stompa any day of the week and I would still have saved myself 400ish points easily.

Every gun on the Stompa is trash, the CC function is literally the only part worth mentioning, and ironically (Not kidding here) the stompa is now LESS durable then it was in 7th edition except against Melta, everything else it is LESS Durable.



The close combat isn't really even worth mentioning, it is basically flat out worse than a Gorkanaut for almost the cost of 3 gorkanauts. Yeah it's strength 20 if it uses its 4 ATTACKS, 4 attacks for near 1000 points, and 6 damage per attack instead of D6, but I would almost always take 12 S16 attacks (just 2 Gorks) over the 4 from the Stompa, they both wound basically everything on 2s. -5 AP vs -4 is basically a non-issue, it only matters against 2+ save models without invul saves (so land raiders). But on averages the Stompa averages 13 wounds against a land raider (it's best target) but it is really 12 wounds. 2 Gorks against the same target average 19.444. If we go with the more attacks at base strength, both average 2 damage, but the Gorks get 36 attacks vs 12.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/27 02:04:01


Post by: Hard Hat


A couple more ideas I had. Not necessarily balanced, just wanted to write them down for fun and to keep them unique. Hopefully we don't get the basic copy-paste army traits that the other books are getting, but I have a grim feeling we'll get the predictable -1 to hit blood axes, 6++ FNP for Deathskulls etc.

Klan traits:

Goffs: +1 Leadership to all Ork units. Ork models have +1 attack in the fight phase against units with lower bravery.

-Aimed at taking advantage of Mob Rule, making large masses of Ork infantry even more devastating in melee.

Bad Moonz: In the shooting phase, all hit rolls of 6 generate an additional attack. Ork infantry do not suffer any penalties for assault weapons after advancing.

-Meant to represent the Bad Moonz preference for more dakka.

Evil Sunz: In the movement phase, when Ork units advance, they can roll two dice and pick the highest. Ork vehicles do not suffer any penalties for assault weapons after advancing.

-Makes the Evil Sunz the mobile army, getting the best use out of vehicles such as trukks and bikes

Snakebites: In the shooting phase, any Ork unit may skip firing with a pistol weapon, instead performing an attack with melee weapons as if it were the fight phase. Ork infantry gets +1 to their save characteristic when charging.

-Meant to highlight the Snakebite primitive preference for using choppas

Blood Axes: Ork units re-roll save rolls of 1 while in cover. In the movement phase, Ork infantry may move up to 5 inches vertically for free in addition to their normal movement.

-Blood Axes attack from unexpected angles, and can over navigate terrain to attack their enemies in seemingly impossible ways.

Deathskulls: Enemy AP characteristics are reduced against Ork units by 1. Ork characters may re-roll one dice during their actions per turn.

-Lucky in that opponents weapons seem to never be quite as effective against them. Deathskull characters would get the re-roll to represent them having accumulate more luck by nature of being more Orky

Weirdboy Powers:

Unsure of what ranges/cast value these might have. They would have be scaled for both to be appropriately balanced. I imagine both these would be particularly powerful in several situations, so they would probably have a high cast value, limited range, or both.

Diskombobulate - Until your next turn, switch a unit's ballistic skill with the unit's weapon skill (friend or foe).

-Imagine this coupled with the Da Jump with a mob of 30 shoota boyz. Could also be used to give grots and kans additional kick in melee, or to mess with an enemy's melee or shooting for a turn.

Grot-a-palooza - Until your next turn, reduce an enemy's characteristics to 5+ WS, 4+ BS, and 4 LD.

-The unit believes they are grots for a turn. Hilarity ensues.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/27 07:13:53


Post by: cormadepanda


I think the ork traits should be something like this

Bad Moons - overwatch on 5+ and may reroll the number of shots for random number the weapon fires (any number of dice).

Blood Axes - -1 to hit outside of 12"

Goff Boys - +1 attack when each model is in base to base contact with another.

Evil Sunz - When advancing roll two pick the highest. Everyone with this clan trait also ignores the penalties to shooting when advancing. And Ork <Vehicles> may take a red paint job which adds +3" to their advance.

Deathskulls - When an enemy model is slain in the fight phase by an Ork model from this clan it may loot the enemy model. If it is an infantry model it regains 1 wound lost earlier in battle, if it is a vehicle model it regains 1 hull point.

Lucky Orks. Deathskulls models do not need to be in cover to count as covered; only obscured.

Snakebites - thick hide. On the roll of a 5+ a wound that would be inflicted is ignored.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/28 17:46:13


Post by: leopard


Wondering on a way to counter the rubbish BS, but that doesn't turn them into a pure yahtzee army that wins by weight of dice.

Thinking something like this:

Any unit may elect to discard half its attacks with any type of weapon in order to gain +1 to hit with the balance of that weapon, not unit may do this more than twice.

e.g. a unit of boyz has two rokkit launchers, they fire one of them with a +1 to hit.

This doesn't represent only one work actually firing (as if they would hold fire), it represents the weight of fire making some hits likely, but the low accuracy meaning a lot of hits is unlikely.

second example, a unit of boyz has 30 weapons, with RoF:2, so can attack its 60 dice on its base of a 5+ (20 hits on average), or can attack with 30 dice on a 4+ (15 hits on average) or 15 dice on a 3+ (10 hits on average).

So normally you don't do it, but you retain the ability when firing at units with negative to hit modifiers.

those boyz when facing an enemy with a -1 so a base of 6 to hit, a baseline of 10 hits can elect to make 30 attacks on a 5+, 15 hits.

Aim is to provide a way to hit harder to hit targets, without providing a buff that makes normal shooting better (e.g. anything that provides a flat +1 to hit)


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/30 14:18:21


Post by: cormadepanda


leopard wrote:
Wondering on a way to counter the rubbish BS, but that doesn't turn them into a pure yahtzee army that wins by weight of dice.

Thinking something like this:

Any unit may elect to discard half its attacks with any type of weapon in order to gain +1 to hit with the balance of that weapon, not unit may do this more than twice.

e.g. a unit of boyz has two rokkit launchers, they fire one of them with a +1 to hit.

This doesn't represent only one work actually firing (as if they would hold fire), it represents the weight of fire making some hits likely, but the low accuracy meaning a lot of hits is unlikely.

second example, a unit of boyz has 30 weapons, with RoF:2, so can attack its 60 dice on its base of a 5+ (20 hits on average), or can attack with 30 dice on a 4+ (15 hits on average) or 15 dice on a 3+ (10 hits on average).

So normally you don't do it, but you retain the ability when firing at units with negative to hit modifiers.

those boyz when facing an enemy with a -1 so a base of 6 to hit, a baseline of 10 hits can elect to make 30 attacks on a 5+, 15 hits.

Aim is to provide a way to hit harder to hit targets, without providing a buff that makes normal shooting better (e.g. anything that provides a flat +1 to hit)


A small amount of abuse in this is using sluggas with shootas. Also combi weapons too.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/10/30 14:56:31


Post by: Breng77


leopard wrote:
Wondering on a way to counter the rubbish BS, but that doesn't turn them into a pure yahtzee army that wins by weight of dice.

Thinking something like this:

Any unit may elect to discard half its attacks with any type of weapon in order to gain +1 to hit with the balance of that weapon, not unit may do this more than twice.

e.g. a unit of boyz has two rokkit launchers, they fire one of them with a +1 to hit.

This doesn't represent only one work actually firing (as if they would hold fire), it represents the weight of fire making some hits likely, but the low accuracy meaning a lot of hits is unlikely.

second example, a unit of boyz has 30 weapons, with RoF:2, so can attack its 60 dice on its base of a 5+ (20 hits on average), or can attack with 30 dice on a 4+ (15 hits on average) or 15 dice on a 3+ (10 hits on average).

So normally you don't do it, but you retain the ability when firing at units with negative to hit modifiers.

those boyz when facing an enemy with a -1 so a base of 6 to hit, a baseline of 10 hits can elect to make 30 attacks on a 5+, 15 hits.

Aim is to provide a way to hit harder to hit targets, without providing a buff that makes normal shooting better (e.g. anything that provides a flat +1 to hit)


You math is a bit off, to the point that you would really only do this if you were at -2 to hit.

For -1 to hit for 60 shots, you would hit 10 at a 6 to hit. Going to a 5+ to hit for 30 shots, hits 10 times as well, doing it again for 4+ to hit, gets you 15 shots or 7.5 hits. In this case rolling 60 dice is likely still better due to the upside, and more dice making average more likely.

Only when you get to -2 to hit would it make sense because it would allow you to hit at all. At that point it would be 30 shots at a 6+ so 5 hits. Or 15 at a 5 + also 5 hits.



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/03 17:44:21


Post by: Azhday


I hope they make Freebooterz rules, something like if you have more then one <Clan> (or non-character <Clan> Infantry units) in a Detachment you get unique army wide Freebooter rule similar to pure <Clan> rules and access to all <Clan> specific Stratagems (or at least those <Clan> specific stratagems from <Clan>s you have in your detachment, or pick 2-3 <Clan> specific Stratagems from the list).


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/04 09:27:03


Post by: shabbadoo


Or Orks could get +1 to hit at half range or closer, because when Orks get even closer to the enemy they get even more excited. Because those trigger fingers are getting excited too, the Orks will then be putting so many more bullets in the air at closer ranges that they can't help but have a better chance of hitting soemthing.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/05 20:40:09


Post by: Red Weasel


1 Command Point
You call that shooting?
Allow one unit to reroll failed to hit roles.
- Make lootas and Gorks/morks useful

2 Command Points
MASH EM UP!
As orks were created to battle the Necrons they have developed some skill at battling those that return

For the next turn all models with resurrection protocals, Feel no pain, demonic save, Curse of the walking Pox, or disgusting resilience loose those abilities against melee attacks.
Ork units may not consolidate into another unit if they win a combat as they are literally stomping, chopping, and chewing everything in sight.


Lucky stick +25 Points
All previous rules but add On a 4+ get back used Command Points


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/05 22:55:24


Post by: JimOnMars


Red Weasel wrote:

2 Command Points
MASH EM UP!
As orks were created to battle the Necrons they have developed some skill at battling those that return

For the next turn all models with resurrection protocals, Feel no pain, demonic save, Curse of the walking Pox, or disgusting resilience loose those abilities against melee attacks.
Ork units may not consolidate into another unit if they win a combat as they are literally stomping, chopping, and chewing everything in sight.

Why the debuff? How many other armies pay 2CP and have a huge minus with their plus?


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/05 23:34:13


Post by: Grimskul


Red Weasel wrote:
1 Command Point
You call that shooting?
Allow one unit to reroll failed to hit roles.
- Make lootas and Gorks/morks useful

2 Command Points
MASH EM UP!
As orks were created to battle the Necrons they have developed some skill at battling those that return

For the next turn all models with resurrection protocals, Feel no pain, demonic save, Curse of the walking Pox, or disgusting resilience loose those abilities against melee attacks.
Ork units may not consolidate into another unit if they win a combat as they are literally stomping, chopping, and chewing everything in sight.


Lucky stick +25 Points
All previous rules but add On a 4+ get back used Command Points


Gotta agree with JimonMars that it makes no sense to have a drawback to a stratagem. The only downside should be the cost of the CP required. Adding more needless debuffs just smacks of unnecessary nerfing that riddled the previous codex.

Also the Lucky stikk makes no sense to give back used Command Points since fluffwise that makes no sense. Like most other non-weapon relics it shouldn't cost anything and simply change to allow the model holding it to re-roll one failed to hit, to wound and to save roll per player turn. If you fail the re-roll on all three, your model suffers a mortal wound. Makes it less crazy. Maaaaaybe also include the function of a WAAAGH! Banner of giving a +1 to hit to units within 6" but then it'd be auto-take and undermine Banner Nobz.

The Finkin' Kap should be the one that gives you a chance to regen Command Points on a 5+, in addition to giving you another warlord trait.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/06 07:10:11


Post by: Blackie


I'd like an upgrade for big meks around 10-15 points that gives him a 6'' bubble which allows units nearby to re-roll failed hits of 1s in the shooting phase.

Da lucky stikk could become another bubble that allows to re-roll all failed hits in close combat. Maybe even wound rolls but it would become too powerful or expensive.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/06 11:47:56


Post by: Breng77


 Blackie wrote:
I'd like an upgrade for big meks around 10-15 points that gives him a 6'' bubble which allows units nearby to re-roll failed hits of 1s in the shooting phase.

Da lucky stikk could become another bubble that allows to re-roll all failed hits in close combat. Maybe even wound rolls but it would become too powerful or expensive.


As powerful as re-rolls are I'd rather not see them for orks. We roll too many dice already and re-rolling a ton of them would make games take forever.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/06 18:36:53


Post by: JimOnMars


Breng77 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
I'd like an upgrade for big meks around 10-15 points that gives him a 6'' bubble which allows units nearby to re-roll failed hits of 1s in the shooting phase.

Da lucky stikk could become another bubble that allows to re-roll all failed hits in close combat. Maybe even wound rolls but it would become too powerful or expensive.


As powerful as re-rolls are I'd rather not see them for orks. We roll too many dice already and re-rolling a ton of them would make games take forever.
agreed. Orks get enough hits in combat anyway. Just let DLS give us +1 BS for nearby units.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/06 20:11:58


Post by: SemperMortis


 Blackie wrote:
I'd like an upgrade for big meks around 10-15 points that gives him a 6'' bubble which allows units nearby to re-roll failed hits of 1s in the shooting phase.

Da lucky stikk could become another bubble that allows to re-roll all failed hits in close combat. Maybe even wound rolls but it would become too powerful or expensive.


That wouldn't even help Ork shooting worth a damn. If you field 10 lootas who get 3 shots you are only getting 5 1s on average which means you are likely to only get 1.6 extra hits out of 20 misses. Is that even worth 5 pts? Let alone 15-20. Now o understand the next line is "well you can stack several units near the bubble. Ok well if you fielded 3 units of 10 lootas your would average 60 shots a turn and would get 10 rerolls for a total of 3.3 extra hits a turn. And even if this was a free ability they gave him it wouldn't be worth using it for that purpose because you would hamstring your army trying to be shooty when nothing we possess in our index is even close to shooty enough.

Now if it gave rerolls for hits/wounds I would then pay an extra 20-25pts for the Mek and it would serve as a useful strategy.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/07 12:21:33


Post by: Blackie


Of course units need points reductions and something even to be better re-written. But a big mek that allows re-rolls of shooting stuff is very cool IMHO, he could also help bikers, kans, bustas that don't aim at vehicles with a bike for himself.

Orks (but IMHO every army deserves that) should also have a special rule that allows units embarked in open topped transports to get benefits from the bubbles. Like badrukk's one on flash gitz. And the characters embarked to give their bubble to other units.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/07 12:52:13


Post by: Breng77


I'd rather have a mek or big mek upgrade that just gave +1 to hit for shooting. Re-rolls require extra rolling for not much more benefit. A 5+ re-roll is about the same as just hitting on a 4+ (56% vs 50%), but the +1 to hit would also help with negative modifiers, and would save time on needing to re-roll a bunch of dice. I just don't like re-rolls as an ork mechanic. I would like things that allowed re-rolling number of shots/rolling 2 dice pick the highest for number of shots for random shot weapons though.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/07 14:39:41


Post by: fraser1191


I don't know much about orks but after looking at their index they need to always hit on 6s


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/10 19:31:58


Post by: office_waaagh


I think having a fixed "always hit on 6's" is probably too much. Orks' solution to a -2 to hit vs shooting should be to charge and do things the proper Ork way. Having said that, we'll probably get something like this:

Ork Stratagem
Dakka dakka dakka - 1 CP
Orks make up in enthusiasm what they lack in accuracy.
Ignore negative modifiers to hit with shooting attacks with the selected unit until the end of your shooting phase.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/10 20:02:02


Post by: Breng77


 office_waaagh wrote:
I think having a fixed "always hit on 6's" is probably too much. Orks' solution to a -2 to hit vs shooting should be to charge and do things the proper Ork way. Having said that, we'll probably get something like this:

Ork Stratagem
Dakka dakka dakka - 1 CP
Orks make up in enthusiasm what they lack in accuracy.
Ignore negative modifiers to hit with shooting attacks with the selected unit until the end of your shooting phase.


The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/10 20:59:24


Post by: office_waaagh


Breng77 wrote:

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Sure, but the Orks aren't meant to be a shooting heavy army anyway. I would humbly suggest that anyone that wants to play a gunline army should probably not be playing Orks, any more than someone that wants to play an assault army should be playing Tau or Guard. Not that it couldn't be a fun time to try it, but you wouldn't expect it to be competitive and it would be pretty easy to counter.A

To borrow a previously floated idea, an alternative would be a "git finda" upgrade for a mek or big mek that replaces the KFF (ie you can take either a KFF or a git finda) that allows units within 3" to ignore negative modifiers to hit.

I don't think Orks should be able to tailor an army to compete with Guard or SM in the shooting phase no matter what units they take or stratagems they use, though.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/11 00:43:17


Post by: Grimskul


 office_waaagh wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Sure, but the Orks aren't meant to be a shooting heavy army anyway. I would humbly suggest that anyone that wants to play a gunline army should probably not be playing Orks, any more than someone that wants to play an assault army should be playing Tau or Guard. Not that it couldn't be a fun time to try it, but you wouldn't expect it to be competitive and it would be pretty easy to counter.A

To borrow a previously floated idea, an alternative would be a "git finda" upgrade for a mek or big mek that replaces the KFF (ie you can take either a KFF or a git finda) that allows units within 3" to ignore negative modifiers to hit.

I don't think Orks should be able to tailor an army to compete with Guard or SM in the shooting phase no matter what units they take or stratagems they use, though.


While orks may not be a purely shooty army like Tau, I feel like you're missing out on a huuuuge part of Orks if you think shooting is not one of the central aspects of Orks. Orks embrace practically all aspects of warfare, shooting included. The whole adage of this site "dakka dakka" comes from Orks and if you've ever played previous editions with Orks you'd know that our schtick is quantity over quality, with an emphasis of mass attacks in CC and overwhelming firepower in shooting. We weren't originally so bad at shooting either, being the bog standard of BS3 (hitting on 4's) before the 5th ed codex came in and gave us BS2 in return for the sheer quantity of shots we had over a lot of armies. The problem now is that so many negative to hit modifiers are being thrown like candy, our amount of shots aren't keeping up with it, especially when we get penalized so much more and our pricing is so off (compare our twin big shoota costs to twin assault cannons for example). So either we need something to compensate ala the ignore modifiers racial rule or at least a global USR where you always hit on a natural 6.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/11 01:11:42


Post by: JimOnMars


 office_waaagh wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Sure, but the Orks aren't meant to be a shooting heavy army anyway. I would humbly suggest that anyone that wants to play a gunline army should probably not be playing Orks, any more than someone that wants to play an assault army should be playing Tau or Guard. Not that it couldn't be a fun time to try it, but you wouldn't expect it to be competitive and it would be pretty easy to counter.A

To borrow a previously floated idea, an alternative would be a "git finda" upgrade for a mek or big mek that replaces the KFF (ie you can take either a KFF or a git finda) that allows units within 3" to ignore negative modifiers to hit.

I don't think Orks should be able to tailor an army to compete with Guard or SM in the shooting phase no matter what units they take or stratagems they use, though.

Then what are lootas for? Are you suggesting that we charge with a 17 point model that is much, much worse in combat than a 6 point one?


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/11 12:22:13


Post by: SemperMortis


 office_waaagh wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

The issue with that is if you took a decent percentage of your army in shooting heavy units they become largely useless, so an opponent can negate a portion of your army by doing nothing.

Sure, but the Orks aren't meant to be a shooting heavy army anyway. I would humbly suggest that anyone that wants to play a gunline army should probably not be playing Orks, any more than someone that wants to play an assault army should be playing Tau or Guard. Not that it couldn't be a fun time to try it, but you wouldn't expect it to be competitive and it would be pretty easy to counter.A

To borrow a previously floated idea, an alternative would be a "git finda" upgrade for a mek or big mek that replaces the KFF (ie you can take either a KFF or a git finda) that allows units within 3" to ignore negative modifiers to hit.

I don't think Orks should be able to tailor an army to compete with Guard or SM in the shooting phase no matter what units they take or stratagems they use, though.


For an army that's "not supposed to shoot" we sure have a lot of units devoted to shooting. Lootas, flashgitz, killa kanz, Mel gunz, big gunz, morkanaut, tankbustas, warbikes, Big Mek/SAG, war buggies, war tracks, deffkoptas, burnas, Burnabommers, dakka jets, blitzabommer,wazbom; the list is actually over HALF of our codex. Our only truly devoted CC unit worth a damn is Boyz, Kommandos and stormboyz.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/12 04:15:14


Post by: office_waaagh


 Grimskul wrote:
While orks may not be a purely shooty army like Tau, I feel like you're missing out on a huuuuge part of Orks if you think shooting is not one of the central aspects of Orks. Orks embrace practically all aspects of warfare, shooting included. The whole adage of this site "dakka dakka" comes from Orks and if you've ever played previous editions with Orks you'd know that our schtick is quantity over quality, with an emphasis of mass attacks in CC and overwhelming firepower in shooting. We weren't originally so bad at shooting either, being the bog standard of BS3 (hitting on 4's) before the 5th ed codex came in and gave us BS2 in return for the sheer quantity of shots we had over a lot of armies. The problem now is that so many negative to hit modifiers are being thrown like candy, our amount of shots aren't keeping up with it, especially when we get penalized so much more and our pricing is so off (compare our twin big shoota costs to twin assault cannons for example). So either we need something to compensate ala the ignore modifiers racial rule or at least a global USR where you always hit on a natural 6.

It was actually 3rd edition when we went from BS 3 to BS 2 (4+ to 5+ in 8th ed parlance). I played 2nd edition with Orks hitting on 4+ with shooting. I played the Feral Orks rules for 3rd ed that had Orks hitting on 4+ with shooting. I played a ton of Gorkamorka with Orks hitting on 4+ with shooting. We never actually got a codex in 5th ed, the 4th ed codex lasted all the way until 7th. In every one of those lists we paid for it with decreased close combat capability: a WS of 3 (roughly equivalent to 4+ in 8th), one attack, and no Furious Charge.

To put it into "real world" terms, a lot more goes into hitting your enemy than pointing your gun and pulling the trigger. Fire discipline, careful management of ammunition expenditure by a leader controlling rates of fire, proper weapons handling drills, and the ability to apply marksmanship principles under stress all contribute to your ability to hit a target under combat conditions. Orks went to the "volume of fire" school of marksmanship.

In game terms, the army is balanced around close combat power being our mainstay. We pay comparatively more points for shooting units for what they're capable of because they fill a deliberate weakness in our army that balances our strength. I could see "always hit on 6's" or "ignore to hit modifiers" as either a stratagem or an aura buff from a character, or maybe a psychic power, but building it into the makeup of the army is, in my humble opinion with which you are free to disagree, contrary to the spirit of the army.

Then what are lootas for? Are you suggesting that we charge with a 17 point model that is much, much worse in combat than a 6 point one?

Obviously, I'm not suggesting that all units in the list are meant for assault. I'm just pointing out that Orks are a melee-focused army and the shooting units are there as backup. Again, I'm not saying you can't make an Ork gunline army, just that it shouldn't be as effective as an AM or SM gunline army any more than making a melee Tau army should be as effective as an Ork melee army. Shooting is our "plan B", it constitutes a not insignificant but still very much secondary part of our army's combat power.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/12 04:25:19


Post by: Galas


I don't think the shooting part of orks should be minimized. Yeah, it shouldn't be like IG or Tau, and a good Ork army should be balance both in shooting and meele, even if you can go more one way or the other.

But saying "Orks should be the assault horde army with shooting as a support" just makes Orks Green Tyranids.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/12 04:32:54


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 office_waaagh wrote:
I think having a fixed "always hit on 6's" is probably too much. Orks' solution to a -2 to hit vs shooting should be to charge and do things the proper Ork way. Having said that, we'll probably get something like this:

Ork Stratagem
Dakka dakka dakka - 1 CP
Orks make up in enthusiasm what they lack in accuracy.
Ignore negative modifiers to hit with shooting attacks with the selected unit until the end of your shooting phase.

Too limited. I'd recommend rather that you choose an enemy unit and your units don't suffer negative modifiers shooting at it.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/12 15:10:14


Post by: Blackie


 office_waaagh wrote:
I think having a fixed "always hit on 6's" is probably too much. Orks' solution to a -2 to hit vs shooting should be to charge and do things the proper Ork way. Having said that, we'll probably get something like this:

Ork Stratagem
Dakka dakka dakka - 1 CP
Orks make up in enthusiasm what they lack in accuracy.
Ignore negative modifiers to hit with shooting attacks with the selected unit until the end of your shooting phase.


You may be right, if only orks close combat was something really powerful. If pks, killsaws and other choppy options were brutal I can agree, if the shooting is invalidated our CC could resolve things. But since orks melee ability is basically reduced to tons of S4 with no AP attacks, we're not even a good close combat oriented army. Having a weak melee ability and the shooting completely invalidated means that orks can't do anything against those kind of armies that give negative modifiers.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/15 14:57:35


Post by: SemperMortis


I might not remember correctly, but I was reasonably sure Ork boyz in 4th-7th edition were BS 2 and WS4 with 2 base attacks.

And before that I can't remember much, but I do remember that Ork choppa weapons had an armor modifier built in which made them better at CC.

Plus your reasoning of why Ork shooting should be extra expensive is ridiculous. I've heard this broken logic argument more then I care to remember. One side says "Orks are good at CC so their shooting should be bad (IE over priced). The other side says "Ork CC is too good it needs to be expensive! (IE why our PKs should cost more then a SM PF)".

You can't have both and yet we do. Ironically our "good" cc unit is nothing more then a spammed boyz list with tons of AP- S4 attacks.

Ork players need to tell GW to stop with this nonsense and when other Ork players say what you just did it invalidates so much of the problems we face it's ridiculous. Orks aren't good at CC and we aren't good at shooting. We just have a Feth load of boyz models. That's it.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/16 05:44:10


Post by: JimOnMars


SemperMortis wrote:
I might not remember correctly, but I was reasonably sure Ork boyz in 4th-7th edition were BS 2 and WS4 with 2 base attacks.

And before that I can't remember much, but I do remember that Ork choppa weapons had an armor modifier built in which made them better at CC.

Plus your reasoning of why Ork shooting should be extra expensive is ridiculous. I've heard this broken logic argument more then I care to remember. One side says "Orks are good at CC so their shooting should be bad (IE over priced). The other side says "Ork CC is too good it needs to be expensive! (IE why our PKs should cost more then a SM PF)".

You can't have both and yet we do. Ironically our "good" cc unit is nothing more then a spammed boyz list with tons of AP- S4 attacks.

Ork players need to tell GW to stop with this nonsense and when other Ork players say what you just did it invalidates so much of the problems we face it's ridiculous. Orks aren't good at CC and we aren't good at shooting. We just have a Feth load of boyz models. That's it.


We have been emailing GW...oh boy we have been... gamefaqs@gwplc.com And we need to keep it up until they change.

The way it should be is this:

Orks are bad at shooting...therefore they cannot fit as much firepower into a small space on the board. I.e. Our models, which are 1/2 as effective as another army's 24 point model, should cost 12 points.

But some say--that doesn't make them "bad at shooting" anymore!!! Yes it does. "Bad at shooting" should never mean "shooting models must be overpriced."

What it means is that there are OTHER effects which make us bad; IE can't fit all those models into cover, can't fit all the models in the good spot on the board, can't fit all those models on the objective, can't fit all those models in the terrain, can't fit all those models in the transport, can't fit all those models in the building, can't fit all those models in the deployment zone.

As a result, in a perfect game, orks are "bad at shooting," even if they are just as points efficient as every other army.

In other words, we are penalized for being bad at shooting by making the shooting game tactically difficult. Challenge Accepted, and Welcomed!!

We need to keep hammering on GW until they get it.

(and in case you are wondering...it should work both ways as well. Kroot Carnivores are S3, T3 with 1 attack. They should be 4 points, not 6.)

gamefaqs@gwplc.com



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 05:53:25


Post by: office_waaagh


I'm not sure what to say besides "I disagree". I'm not sure where the idea that Orks aren't good in close combat comes from...compared to what exactly? As for "spamming Boyz" (can you spam your basic troops? Is that still spamming?) being bad...maybe this is my bias showing (my job in the army was infantry) but I don't see how "our basic troops are so good that it's easy to base an effective army around them" is something to be unhappy about, much less a sign that our army is weak.

I like the relic and mobbing up stratagem that we're getting. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

In practice, how bad is the -2 to hit situation? I've not encountered it yet, is this something that is actually costing people games? Do we need a faction-wide special rule specifically to counter it in order to even have a chance, or is it just a nuisance?


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 18:47:19


Post by: SemperMortis


 office_waaagh wrote:
I'm not sure what to say besides "I disagree". I'm not sure where the idea that Orks aren't good in close combat comes from...compared to what exactly? As for "spamming Boyz" (can you spam your basic troops? Is that still spamming?) being bad...maybe this is my bias showing (my job in the army was infantry) but I don't see how "our basic troops are so good that it's easy to base an effective army around them" is something to be unhappy about, much less a sign that our army is weak.

I like the relic and mobbing up stratagem that we're getting. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

In practice, how bad is the -2 to hit situation? I've not encountered it yet, is this something that is actually costing people games? Do we need a faction-wide special rule specifically to counter it in order to even have a chance, or is it just a nuisance?


There isn't anything inherently wrong with having a ton of troops. It's fitting as well, the problem is that to be competitive, it's literally the only way.

As far as Orks not being good at CC....well they aren't. Meganobz are a joke, regular nobz are squishy and not worth taking compared to boyz, Burma boyz suck, the only "good" CC units are boyz being spammed in numbers that the enemy can't deal with. Compare 180pts of Boyz Vs 180pts of Lhorne Berserkers, who wins? 11 Zerkers is 176pts they have 3 attacks each (4 for the champ) are strength 5 ohh and they get to swing TWICE in every fight phase. So that is 68 S5 attacks hitting on 3s so 45ish hits and 30ish wounds. Against Ork 6+ armor that's 25 casualties. 5 Orkz swing back and get 15 attacks 10 hits and 5 wounds VS 3+ armor that's only 1-2 dead Marines.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 18:59:50


Post by: Breng77


 office_waaagh wrote:
I'm not sure what to say besides "I disagree". I'm not sure where the idea that Orks aren't good in close combat comes from...compared to what exactly? As for "spamming Boyz" (can you spam your basic troops? Is that still spamming?) being bad...maybe this is my bias showing (my job in the army was infantry) but I don't see how "our basic troops are so good that it's easy to base an effective army around them" is something to be unhappy about, much less a sign that our army is weak.

I like the relic and mobbing up stratagem that we're getting. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

In practice, how bad is the -2 to hit situation? I've not encountered it yet, is this something that is actually costing people games? Do we need a faction-wide special rule specifically to counter it in order to even have a chance, or is it just a nuisance?


The reason to be unhappy about any one unit being the obvious choice, is that it makes it so that taking the "cool" units a penalty, rather than a bonus and kills list diversity. It is great that boyz are good. I don't want them to be bad, but I want taking a unit of Nobz to be an improvement over taking a unit of boyz. They are supposed to be a stronger unit, now I don't want them to be so good that you never want to take boyz either. I just want it to be a choice. Right now there is basically no time where given the choice between more boyz and another unit in our army, where you look at it and think "for x role this unit is better than boyz, or at least not enough to make them a better choice than boyz." want to kill a tank, boyz aren't great, but equal points of boyz are pretty on par with most other options especially when you look at durability as well. For instance 10 tank bustas are 170 points, and average 6 wounds to most tanks. For those same points I can get 28 boyz. Those same boyz are way more durable (more than twice) and average 8 wounds to the same tank (only including combat). So why take tank bustas especially when they become target #1 when compared to the boyz mobs.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 19:00:19


Post by: Kap'n Krump


Meganobz are far from a joke, especially if you can buff them with a waaaagh banner and a painboy. 2+ saves are effectively a 5+ invlun, which is a huge help.

Normal nobz are a bit squishy, but ammo runts help quite a bit with that.

And as for the boyz v. zerkers comparison, remember that's dependent on who gets the charge. If those boyz charge the zerkers, you're looking at very, very different numbers.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 19:04:01


Post by: Breng77


SemperMortis wrote:
 office_waaagh wrote:
I'm not sure what to say besides "I disagree". I'm not sure where the idea that Orks aren't good in close combat comes from...compared to what exactly? As for "spamming Boyz" (can you spam your basic troops? Is that still spamming?) being bad...maybe this is my bias showing (my job in the army was infantry) but I don't see how "our basic troops are so good that it's easy to base an effective army around them" is something to be unhappy about, much less a sign that our army is weak.

I like the relic and mobbing up stratagem that we're getting. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

In practice, how bad is the -2 to hit situation? I've not encountered it yet, is this something that is actually costing people games? Do we need a faction-wide special rule specifically to counter it in order to even have a chance, or is it just a nuisance?


There isn't anything inherently wrong with having a ton of troops. It's fitting as well, the problem is that to be competitive, it's literally the only way.

As far as Orks not being good at CC....well they aren't. Meganobz are a joke, regular nobz are squishy and not worth taking compared to boyz, Burma boyz suck, the only "good" CC units are boyz being spammed in numbers that the enemy can't deal with. Compare 180pts of Boyz Vs 180pts of Lhorne Berserkers, who wins? 11 Zerkers is 176pts they have 3 attacks each (4 for the champ) are strength 5 ohh and they get to swing TWICE in every fight phase. So that is 68 S5 attacks hitting on 3s so 45ish hits and 30ish wounds. Against Ork 6+ armor that's 25 casualties. 5 Orkz swing back and get 15 attacks 10 hits and 5 wounds VS 3+ armor that's only 1-2 dead Marines.


Well to be fair turn that around to the orks charging 29 boyz is 174 points. They get 116 attacks hitting on 3s, so 77 hits, 38 wounds = 12 dead berserkers. So it comes down to who gets the charge. The problem boyz have is they lack other units to back them up, and lack ways other than a weirdboy to get to combat.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 19:04:11


Post by: SemperMortis


Ohh and the negative to hit modifiers are usually -1. But that's huge for our army because it negates about 1/2 of our shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng, csm are also FASTER then Ork boyz. They are more likely to get the charge off, especially with their abilities.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 19:09:40


Post by: Breng77


 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Meganobz are far from a joke, especially if you can buff them with a waaaagh banner and a painboy. 2+ saves are effectively a 5+ invlun, which is a huge help.

Normal nobz are a bit squishy, but ammo runts help quite a bit with that.

And as for the boyz v. zerkers comparison, remember that's dependent on who gets the charge. If those boyz charge the zerkers, you're looking at very, very different numbers.


The issue with MANZ is that they need the banner or they are pretty bad. They really need to be able to hit on a 3+. They are decently durable unless the opponent has mortal wound spam. Further, if they need character support that means they also need a transport and that gets expensive fast. 5 MANZ + painboy + Banner + transport is minimum of almost 500 points (496).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
Ohh and the negative to hit modifiers are usually -1. But that's huge for our army because it negates about 1/2 of our shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng, csm are also FASTER then Ork boyz. They are more likely to get the charge off, especially with their abilities.


Sure right now with the ability to infiltrate berzerkers, run effective squads in a transport, or use psychic powers. Our only way is to Da Jump and pray for a 9. Just pointing out that the math of who charges matters, and the lack of support is the issue, not the capability of the unit. You could easily also screen the berserkers and counter charge, but then your army is doing very little because our shooting sucks.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 20:40:19


Post by: Kap'n Krump


I still don't really understand why MANZ hitting on a 4+ counts as 'bad' this edition.

Last edition, hitting on 4s was pretty normal for EVERYTHING, unless you were fighting units who were awful in CC.

But I'll happily take hitting 4+s and going first on the charge instead of hitting on 4s and always going last. That seems like a straight buff to me.




Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 20:42:59


Post by: Breng77


 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I still don't really understand why MANZ hitting on a 4+ counts as 'bad' this edition.

Last edition, hitting on 4s was pretty normal for EVERYTHING, unless you were fighting units who were awful in CC.

But I'll happily take hitting 4+s and going first on the charge instead of hitting on 4s and always going last. That seems like a straight buff to me.




It isn't a nerf compared to last edition. It is just that everything else got buffed, so given their points cost they need to hit better to be reliable.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 22:27:27


Post by: Grimskul


 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I still don't really understand why MANZ hitting on a 4+ counts as 'bad' this edition.

Last edition, hitting on 4s was pretty normal for EVERYTHING, unless you were fighting units who were awful in CC.

But I'll happily take hitting 4+s and going first on the charge instead of hitting on 4s and always going last. That seems like a straight buff to me.




I think it has more to do with the fact that Power klaws now only do D3 damage each which means their damage potential is a LOT lower than the previous edition, especially since our ideal targets are now wounded normally on 3's rather than 2's. With the amount of wounds vehicles/monsters have now and the unreliability of D3 damage per klaw hit (and now even 3+ save models have a chance of saving against them, unlike before), a unit of 3 Meganobz has a surprisingly mediocre chance of killing a rhino outright in one round of combat, whereas before it was basically a sure thing. Definitely a transition to get used to but currently the price point they are at does not reflect their damage output and the plethora of plasma and lascannons firing about makes their 2+ save largely moot.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/22 23:13:22


Post by: Kap'n Krump


I can see the argument about their random damage output, that's something I honestly have noticed as well.

But hell, I still love their 2+ save. At least they now get a 5+ save against plasma/las/power fists - last edition their 2+ save really WAS moot against those weapons.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/23 01:53:00


Post by: Galas


Powerfist can't kill vehicles anymore. No matter the unit that uses them, be it a ork or space marines.

Heck, even a squad of Deathknight Knights without the -1 penalty in their Thunderhammer-like maces that have 1 less of AP have problems killing a rhino.

So I don't think thats how one should measure that. Chain Fist and Powerfist are now for killing elite infantry, not vehicles.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/23 14:05:03


Post by: SemperMortis


 Galas wrote:
Powerfist can't kill vehicles anymore. No matter the unit that uses them, be it a ork or space marines.

Heck, even a squad of Deathknight Knights without the -1 penalty in their Thunderhammer-like maces that have 1 less of AP have problems killing a rhino.

So I don't think thats how one should measure that. Chain Fist and Powerfist are now for killing elite infantry, not vehicles.


And therein lies one of the biggest problems with the Ork index right now. PKs and Killsaws aren't good at killing vehicles so what the hell do we use to kill them? I am at the point in my gaming where I ignore vehicles or keep them tied up in combat because I have NO answer beyond sending Ghaz after them. And don't say "tankbustas" because they are trash right now as well. If they aren't in a trukk minimum they are killed turn 1 and even then it's not guaranteed because trukkz and wagons are so expensive we can't spam them like we used to. Plus 10 tank bustas will be lucky to kill a rhino in one round of shooting. Anything heavier then that or T8 and forget about it.

So our glorious CC style army can't CC vehicles and can't shoot them.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/23 15:07:27


Post by: Blackie


Yeah, I don't bother with big choppas or pks anymore, all my nobz just have the free choppa. The only good thing about that is the fact that I finally use my AOBR nobz, which never went into battle in the previous edition with the exception of a couple of them the very few times I've brought the council of the Waaagh. Wow


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/24 13:21:02


Post by: SemperMortis


 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, I don't bother with big choppas or pks anymore, all my nobz just have the free choppa. The only good thing about that is the fact that I finally use my AOBR nobz, which never went into battle in the previous edition with the exception of a couple of them the very few times I've brought the council of the Waaagh. Wow


I Have gone back to issuing BCs to my nobz simply because I run into far to many vehicles and MCs in my games now. Having 2-4 BCs attacking something along with 30-60 Boyz tends to get the desired result (Unless its T8).

We really need some Anti-Tank options that don't suck. Even if they slashed Tank Bustas price in half it woldn't be enough because you still need to buy a transport for the :(


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/25 05:04:19


Post by: Infantryman


I don't have the current Xeno index (I should buy that?). Is Orky shootaz Rapid Fire or Assault?

M.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/25 05:49:28


Post by: Tygre


 Infantryman wrote:
I don't have the current Xeno index (I should buy that?). Is Orky shootaz Rapid Fire or Assault?

M.


18" Str 4 AP - Assault 2.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/25 06:07:09


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


They're assault. I don't think Rapid Fire is even a profile in the Ork index.

In fact, I can't think of a rapid fire weapon they've had in a long time...


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/25 06:18:35


Post by: Infantryman


Well, at least they're not THAT bad...

M.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/25 20:42:36


Post by: GreatGranpapy


While PKs are stupid expensive right now, is it reasonable to hope they get a boost to they're "killyness." I can't help but feel their damage output can be quite lackluster at times. Technically PKs are the Ork equivalent of lascannons I think, not powerfists; the high damage weapon meant to crack open hard targets.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/26 05:19:07


Post by: Tygre


Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/27 03:33:06


Post by: GreatGranpapy


Tygre wrote:
Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

I believe that's supposed to be represented by being T4. I never really valued how much difference there is between T3 and T4 until I played a game against my friend's Tyranid army. He had a mix of Gaunts and Genestealers and the +1 T made the Stealers much harder to wound. So having T4 on our basic infantry is pretty decent. The only kicker is that the wounds that do go through will probably not get saved.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/27 04:55:19


Post by: SemperMortis


 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Tygre wrote:
Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

I believe that's supposed to be represented by being T4. I never really valued how much difference there is between T3 and T4 until I played a game against my friend's Tyranid army. He had a mix of Gaunts and Genestealers and the +1 T made the Stealers much harder to wound. So having T4 on our basic infantry is pretty decent. The only kicker is that the wounds that do go through will probably not get saved.


T4 6+ save is just about the same as T3 5+ save (Guardsmen) in regards to durability. 12 S4 hits against T4 6+ save = 5 wounds, 12 S4 hits against T3 5+ = 5 wounds. So the toughness nonsense is just that, nonsense. GW should either give orkz T5 or a 5+ save. 2 Wounds would be going overboard and require a pretty hefty price hike, at least 3pts, probably closer to 4, plus by doing that you require EVERY other Ork unit to do likewise, Nobz will need 3 wounds, meganobz 4 etc etc. I think a 5+ save for maybe 1pt wouldn't be terrible, maybe give us back our inch of movement they took away as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest difference between T3 and T4 in regards to durability is when you start hitting S6+ weapons, and honestly at that point it doesn't matter because your opponent is using Anti armor weapons on infantry.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/11/27 08:05:28


Post by: Blackie


I'd love the 6'' movement. It also makes sense, just look at the boyz, they're some sort of little hulks.

Rather than T5 I'd like a 6+ FNP for all orks infantries and bikers that is cumulative with the painboy bubble, so it would become 5+ with the dok nearby.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/12/19 17:45:09


Post by: Red Weasel


Grot gunners for Gorks and Morks. Let em take up transport capacity but let the walkers actually do more than advance and die.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/12/27 22:00:19


Post by: vict0988


I made Stratagems and Klan Attributes (attributes sounds bad, but tactics is even worse IMO).

Link: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Angrier_Initiative#ORKS

Not doing the math for S 3 seems like a bad idea. Maybe Boyz aren't tough enough, but do Orks really need to be much tougher than humans? Isn't it enough that Orks are a little bit tougher wearing nothing but a leather vest vs combat armour. Orks are suppose to be a horde army, they are already quite a bit tougher than the smaller Tyranids, I really don't see the problem. There already isn't far between an Ork and a Space Marine.

36 S 4 AP - hits kills 15 Orks or 16 Guardsmen 6.66% more.

36 S 3 AP - hits kills 10 Orks or 12 Guardsmen 20% more.

36 S 7 AP 1 hits kills 24 Orks or 25 Guardsmen 25% more.

36 S 7 AP 3 hits kills 24 Orks or 30 Guardsmen 4.17% more.

36 S 4 AP 1 hits kills 18 Orks or 20 Guardsmen 11.11% more.

36 S 5 AP 2 hits kills 24 Orks or 24 Guardsmen 0% more.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/12/28 12:54:09


Post by: Nazrak


SemperMortis wrote:
 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Tygre wrote:
Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

I believe that's supposed to be represented by being T4. I never really valued how much difference there is between T3 and T4 until I played a game against my friend's Tyranid army. He had a mix of Gaunts and Genestealers and the +1 T made the Stealers much harder to wound. So having T4 on our basic infantry is pretty decent. The only kicker is that the wounds that do go through will probably not get saved.


T4 6+ save is just about the same as T3 5+ save (Guardsmen) in regards to durability. 12 S4 hits against T4 6+ save = 5 wounds, 12 S4 hits against T3 5+ = 5 wounds. So the toughness nonsense is just that, nonsense. GW should either give orkz T5 or a 5+ save. 2 Wounds would be going overboard and require a pretty hefty price hike, at least 3pts, probably closer to 4, plus by doing that you require EVERY other Ork unit to do likewise, Nobz will need 3 wounds, meganobz 4 etc etc. I think a 5+ save for maybe 1pt wouldn't be terrible, maybe give us back our inch of movement they took away as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest difference between T3 and T4 in regards to durability is when you start hitting S6+ weapons, and honestly at that point it doesn't matter because your opponent is using Anti armor weapons on infantry.

T4 6+ is, mathematically, marginally more resilient than T3 5+ against anything up to S5. Although I'd personally like to see Ardboyz make a comeback, there is no problem at all with basic orks in this regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact that models with fancy kit (e.g. Lootas) are just as squishy as Boyz is a bit of an issue, but rather than messing about with the core stats of Orks, I think that squishiness just needs to be factored in when establishing the costs of upgrades. If you want better, more resilient Orks, take Nobz. It's literally what they're there for.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/12/29 14:20:36


Post by: SemperMortis


 Nazrak wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Tygre wrote:
Just a not clearly thought out thought. Maybe Orks should have an additional wound to represent how much damage they can soak. So 2 wound Boyz.

I believe that's supposed to be represented by being T4. I never really valued how much difference there is between T3 and T4 until I played a game against my friend's Tyranid army. He had a mix of Gaunts and Genestealers and the +1 T made the Stealers much harder to wound. So having T4 on our basic infantry is pretty decent. The only kicker is that the wounds that do go through will probably not get saved.


T4 6+ save is just about the same as T3 5+ save (Guardsmen) in regards to durability. 12 S4 hits against T4 6+ save = 5 wounds, 12 S4 hits against T3 5+ = 5 wounds. So the toughness nonsense is just that, nonsense. GW should either give orkz T5 or a 5+ save. 2 Wounds would be going overboard and require a pretty hefty price hike, at least 3pts, probably closer to 4, plus by doing that you require EVERY other Ork unit to do likewise, Nobz will need 3 wounds, meganobz 4 etc etc. I think a 5+ save for maybe 1pt wouldn't be terrible, maybe give us back our inch of movement they took away as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest difference between T3 and T4 in regards to durability is when you start hitting S6+ weapons, and honestly at that point it doesn't matter because your opponent is using Anti armor weapons on infantry.

T4 6+ is, mathematically, marginally more resilient than T3 5+ against anything up to S5. Although I'd personally like to see Ardboyz make a comeback, there is no problem at all with basic orks in this regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact that models with fancy kit (e.g. Lootas) are just as squishy as Boyz is a bit of an issue, but rather than messing about with the core stats of Orks, I think that squishiness just needs to be factored in when establishing the costs of upgrades. If you want better, more resilient Orks, take Nobz. It's literally what they're there for.


Except nobz are still over priced and crap unless you buy an ammo runt and even then they still aren't any more durable then a boy pt for pt. I do agree though that our specialists need either more armor or lower costs.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/12/30 23:07:35


Post by: davou


I'd love for trukks to either get cheaper, or have an ability to offset their high cost and low durability besides ramshackle.

A unique permission to disembark units after moving would be choice. Even if it cost an upgrade (boarding plank).


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2017/12/31 20:02:31


Post by: leopard


Want to see a few things come in, or back

1. allow elements of the fantasy range to be used - zero cost for GW to do this, e.g. allow "primitives" using fantasy orks with sticks, spears etc, perfect for Snakebites among other things - ditto the squig units

2. bring back "big uns", ideally a new kit with slightly larger models and various bling bits, these can be the T4 W2 or T5 W1 models with a better save and maybe stronger in combat but smaller mobs

3. at least one (weedy) Gretchen HQ and ideally at least one or two more Grot units - thinking a short ranged sniper and some other sneaky type unit that infiltrates but isn't amazingly good at it

4. realistic costs for the vehicles so they occasionally get used

5. The six main clans and Cult of Speed to get their own flavour, like the Tyranid Hive Fleets have


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/01 14:19:38


Post by: Nazrak


leopard wrote:
Want to see a few things come in, or back

1. allow elements of the fantasy range to be used - zero cost for GW to do this, e.g. allow "primitives" using fantasy orks with sticks, spears etc, perfect for Snakebites among other things - ditto the squig units

2. bring back "big uns", ideally a new kit with slightly larger models and various bling bits, these can be the T4 W2 or T5 W1 models with a better save and maybe stronger in combat but smaller mobs

3. at least one (weedy) Gretchen HQ and ideally at least one or two more Grot units - thinking a short ranged sniper and some other sneaky type unit that infiltrates but isn't amazingly good at it

4. realistic costs for the vehicles so they occasionally get used

5. The six main clans and Cult of Speed to get their own flavour, like the Tyranid Hive Fleets have

1. Snakebites ≠ feral Orks. More squigs would obv be great though.

2. Nobz already exist. You just described Nobz.

3. Grot HQs don't make any sense in 40K. No self-respecting Ork is going to let a weedy grot boss them about. Snipers aren't a bad shout though.

4. Yep, totally. At the moment the vehicles are too expensive for what they do, which has the added problem that if you take them, you're eating into your points too much to be able to buy sufficient boyz.

5. I can't see there's any chance we won't be getting Clan rules for the big six. Not sure KoS necessarily need specific rules; it's more about army composition. Although obviously the latter is dependent on vehicles being more viable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
A few more thoughts on the Clan stuff:

So far, any traits/chapter tactics/etc. seem to be dependent on having all units within a detachment share the same <Chapter>, <Regiment> etc. keyword. Given Ork Warbands’ tendency to comprise Orks from a number of different Clans, it seems that imposing this restriction wouldn’t be particularly appropriate, from an in-universe perspective. As a long-time Warboss, originally attracted to the faction by the wide variety of units and colour schemes, I think it would be a crying shame if the Clan rules served to encourage “mono-Clan” army builds. It seems to me there are a few potential options here:
Allow mixed-Clan detachments. The most straightforward, but perhaps inadvisable as it could lead to a) complaints from non-Ork players who feel Orks are being given a benefit not afforded to other armies; b) players simply cherry-picking the most effective Clan trait for any given unit. <Clan> bonuses (e.g. from a Waaagh! Banner) would obviously still be restricted by keyword, but not sure if this is enough to offset the obvious advantages/potential for abuse of this approach.

Allow mixed-Clan detachments, but only allow players to allocate a specific <Clan> keyword to a unit within that detachment if there is a Boyz mob with that keyword in the same detachment. (E.g., you can add a unit of Deathskulls Lootas to your detachment provided you have a Deathskulls Boyz mob too.) This would hark back to the way Ork armies were composed in the ‘Ere We Go/Freebootas era (e.g. bring an Evil Sunz mob and you can bring a Mek too) without being as restrictive. It would probably make sense to allow players to ignore this restriction if all units within a detachment share the same <Clan> – i.e. exactly the same as with keywords in other armies. The only drawback I see to this is that it is perhaps slightly more complicated than most army composition rules this edition, although not entirely without precedent (cf Genestealer Cults/Brood Brothers).

Keep the restrictions as per other armies, but give Orks a low-end HQ, to mitigate the dual problem of multiple-Clan armies ending up with too many Points/PL tied up in HQ choices, and it not being particularly appropriate for an Ork tribe to have multiple Warbosses (for example); or for Goffs to have loads of Weirdboyz hanging around. Something roughly analogous to a Space Marine Lieutenant (statline somewhere between a Nob and Warboss; maybe bring back the “Clanboss” nomenclature – another callback to 1st Edition?) could easily be represented using a model from the Nobz kit, and afford ample opportunities for some fun conversions/kitbashing, which we all know Ork players love.
(To be honest, I’d like to see this regardless of Clan rules, as I think it would be a fun and useful addition to the Orky repertoire.)

Thoughts?


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/01 16:14:43


Post by: leopard



1. Snakebites ≠ feral Orks. More squigs would obv be great though.

2. Nobz already exist. You just described Nobz.

3. Grot HQs don't make any sense in 40K. No self-respecting Ork is going to let a weedy grot boss them about. Snipers aren't a bad shout though.

4. Yep, totally. At the moment the vehicles are too expensive for what they do, which has the added problem that if you take them, you're eating into your points too much to be able to buy sufficient boyz.

5. I can't see there's any chance we won't be getting Clan rules for the big six. Not sure KoS necessarily need specific rules; it's more about army composition. Although obviously the latter is dependent on vehicles being more viable.


1. Aware snakebites != feral, they are however a natural fit for less well armed orcs or less well armoured models generally, not suggesting such are limited to them but it provides a nice theme - throw in boar riders etc, the kits are generally compatible with the 40k ones so up arming is easy enough.

2. Except the orcs have had "bigger orcs" for some time, the index removed them - the idea is something partway between boyz and nobz, better equipped and bigger, but not that high in the social ranking. thinking its a way to provide another infantry kit with different options.

3. who said anything about grits leading orks? thinking allowing a grot detachment, a cheap, not very good HQ model allowing a "grot rebellion" list - would be fully supportive of rules to reflect this so any aura etc only apply to grots, its more a way to expand the little guys roles and provide some character

4. thats the point , not just aiming for cheaper vehicles, just want them to fit in nicely and be given a cost to make it hard to decide to take them or not

5. I do hope so, thinking KoS could be given various bonuses, just needs to be different to Evil Sunz


Would also love to see looted vehicles, ideally as a section on how to convert a few other vehicles to ork control not something limited to "open play" or just a looted rhino



Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/01 18:04:36


Post by: Nazrak


leopard wrote:



1. Aware snakebites != feral, they are however a natural fit for less well armed orcs or less well armoured models generally, not suggesting such are limited to them but it provides a nice theme - throw in boar riders etc, the kits are generally compatible with the 40k ones so up arming is easy enough.

2. Except the orcs have had "bigger orcs" for some time, the index removed them - the idea is something partway between boyz and nobz, better equipped and bigger, but not that high in the social ranking. thinking its a way to provide another infantry kit with different options.

3. who said anything about grits leading orks? thinking allowing a grot detachment, a cheap, not very good HQ model allowing a "grot rebellion" list - would be fully supportive of rules to reflect this so any aura etc only apply to grots, its more a way to expand the little guys roles and provide some character

4. thats the point , not just aiming for cheaper vehicles, just want them to fit in nicely and be given a cost to make it hard to decide to take them or not

5. I do hope so, thinking KoS could be given various bonuses, just needs to be different to Evil Sunz


Would also love to see looted vehicles, ideally as a section on how to convert a few other vehicles to ork control not something limited to "open play" or just a looted rhino


1. Not sure this requires any specific rules though; you can just mix in bits from the fantasy kits to give things a Snakebity vibe. I'd personally like to see Boars back, but I can't really see it happening.

2. I'm fairly sure Skarboyz haven't been a thing since the 3rd edition codex. And now Boyz are S4, I'm not sure there's really much of a space for them to occupy. I think you could make an argument for bringing back 'Ardboyz, although I do wonder if Boyz with a 4+ save might be a bit *too* good this edition. I guess it'd be fine if you costed them accordingly.

3. I see what you're driving at, but it seems GW have done away with any restrictions on what you can take, and I think this would just be opening the door to people abusing the option of a super-cheap HQ choice.

Not gonna disagree with you on the others though! No reason they couldn't give looted vehicles their own profile, and why not do a conversion sprue to add them to whatever kit you like, a la GsC/Deathwatch?


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/01 18:23:26


Post by: leopard


oh mixing the bits is easy enough, was thinking a more feral option though, pure close combat with no ranged weapons.

Perhaps done as "young 'uns" out to prove themselves.

Up armoured is the role I was thinking of, just forgot the name, a 4+ save would be fine with the right cost - especially limited to say one unit per formation, or in the elite slot.

I think a grot HQ would be fine - stick a rule in that the formation they are in cannot include any <ork> units.


A conversion sprue for vehicles would be wonderful, or a box with a couple of spures of bitz aimed at converting a couple of vehicles, include grot oilers etc, crew figures and other stuff that would be good in plastic but doesn't really justify its own set - the sort of thing every ork player is likely to want one or two of at least.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/01 18:30:22


Post by: An Actual Englishman


In general I'd like to see a few things changed with Orks when our codex is released.

1. More AP on our shooting weapons aside from Mek Gunz.
2. A reason to take PKs.
3. Properly costed vehicles.
4. More ways to dish out mortal wounds, without relying on Weirdboyz.
5. A reason to take bikes.
6. More focus from our elite units, Boyz should be the "general unit", they shouldn't be better than a specialist at performing the specialists' intended role.
7. A reason to take varied and themed lists, outside of Boyz.

I'm not sure how GW are going to go about this without nerfing Boyz or making our other units much, much cheaper. I'd prefer if they added new abilities for our existing units, rather than making them cheaper. We lack variation and we are boring to play against and with.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/01 18:41:09


Post by: leopard


1-3 very much so
4.. with caution yes
5. gods yes, they look wonderful, please give them a role
6. either this or have units defined by their profile, not equipment, and have a much greater versatility in equipment
7. if they go the way Tyranids have then the different clans should get something that will provide six or so working "themes"


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/01 20:33:23


Post by: Dakka Flakka Flame


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm not sure how GW are going to go about this without nerfing Boyz or making our other units much, much cheaper. I'd prefer if they added new abilities for our existing units, rather than making them cheaper. We lack variation and we are boring to play against and with.

I would also like new abilities for existing units, both to make them better and add more flavor. They can help out a lot of things with Stratagems, but I'm hoping to see a bunch of units get more fun rules right in their unit entries as there are only so many stratagems to go around*. Some units could probably use additional special rules and stratagems and still need a points drop in addition to that.

Before Jink existed Ork Warbikes had a special invulnerable save that extended to units behind them to represent the clouds of dust and oily smoke. I'd like to see Ork Warbikes become the Ork's version of Venomthropes, where enemies have a -1 to hit them in the shooting phase plus if they have X+ models then the -1 to hit bubble extends to other Ork units wholly within X". This rule would apply to Nob Bikers as well, and Ork characters on warbikes would benefit from the -1 to hit but they wouldn't be able to generate the bubble.

I don't like the Burna Boyz' Pyromaniaks ability. I'm glad that they got some flavor, but I just think it's a bad rule. I'd rather see them get to shoot again if they destroy a unit in the shooting phase, which would make them good at cleaning up small units. They used to have a bonus against vehicles in close combat way back when, so it would be cool if they got a rule kind of like Genestealers where on wound rolls of 6+ in close combat they are AP -4.

I wouldn't even mind seeing some negative flavorful special rules if they adjust the points accordingly. As has been mentioned before, there is a problem with Ork specialists in that we pay a lot of points for a model with one wound and a 6+ armor save. There are a lot of ways that coudl be helped, such as making transports cheaper, giving specialists the option of taking better armor and giving them sources of ablative wounds (ammo runts, spanners that cost the same as a regular boy, making the special weapon an optional upgrade so cheap Boyz can be mixed in, allowing wounds to be reassigned to nearby units of Grots, etc.).

Another way is to make them cheaper. I think that Lootas should just be cheaper in general, but I wouldn't mind seeing them get "worse" in certain ways to make them even cheaper. That big Deffgun rig is heavy, so make them have a move of 4" and get -1 Attack in close combat, and drop their points accordingly. They shouldn't be running around or getting into melee anyway, but we have to pay the points for that extra attack in the Boy profile. Maybe it could also provide a 5+ armor save? That would be good for small units of Lootas in cover, but not as much for Lootas in vehicles or protected by a KFF.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/01 23:50:32


Post by: An Actual Englishman


leopard wrote:
1-3 very much so
4.. with caution yes
5. gods yes, they look wonderful, please give them a role
6. either this or have units defined by their profile, not equipment, and have a much greater versatility in equipment
7. if they go the way Tyranids have then the different clans should get something that will provide six or so working "themes"


Yes I think if we get a similar deal to the Nids we'll be golden. Here's hoping.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

I would also like new abilities for existing units, both to make them better and add more flavor. They can help out a lot of things with Stratagems, but I'm hoping to see a bunch of units get more fun rules right in their unit entries as there are only so many stratagems to go around*. Some units could probably use additional special rules and stratagems and still need a points drop in addition to that.

Before Jink existed Ork Warbikes had a special invulnerable save that extended to units behind them to represent the clouds of dust and oily smoke. I'd like to see Ork Warbikes become the Ork's version of Venomthropes, where enemies have a -1 to hit them in the shooting phase plus if they have X+ models then the -1 to hit bubble extends to other Ork units wholly within X". This rule would apply to Nob Bikers as well, and Ork characters on warbikes would benefit from the -1 to hit but they wouldn't be able to generate the bubble.

I don't like the Burna Boyz' Pyromaniaks ability. I'm glad that they got some flavor, but I just think it's a bad rule. I'd rather see them get to shoot again if they destroy a unit in the shooting phase, which would make them good at cleaning up small units. They used to have a bonus against vehicles in close combat way back when, so it would be cool if they got a rule kind of like Genestealers where on wound rolls of 6+ in close combat they are AP -4.

I wouldn't even mind seeing some negative flavorful special rules if they adjust the points accordingly. As has been mentioned before, there is a problem with Ork specialists in that we pay a lot of points for a model with one wound and a 6+ armor save. There are a lot of ways that coudl be helped, such as making transports cheaper, giving specialists the option of taking better armor and giving them sources of ablative wounds (ammo runts, spanners that cost the same as a regular boy, making the special weapon an optional upgrade so cheap Boyz can be mixed in, allowing wounds to be reassigned to nearby units of Grots, etc.).

Another way is to make them cheaper. I think that Lootas should just be cheaper in general, but I wouldn't mind seeing them get "worse" in certain ways to make them even cheaper. That big Deffgun rig is heavy, so make them have a move of 4" and get -1 Attack in close combat, and drop their points accordingly. They shouldn't be running around or getting into melee anyway, but we have to pay the points for that extra attack in the Boy profile. Maybe it could also provide a 5+ armor save? That would be good for small units of Lootas in cover, but not as much for Lootas in vehicles or protected by a KFF.


I would love warbikes to deal mortal wounds on the charge. This seems like it makes most fluff sense to me to represent them charging in to combat like maniacs. Evil sunz should be able to leave combat and charge to make them even more potent.

Perhaps the Nob bikers could generate the invulnerable cloud to give them a unique purpose? Although this would overlap with kff biker mek quite a bit.

Totally with you on burna Boyz and lootas. They need either a buff or a points decrease. Grots also need a unique flavourful ability to give them a role outside of screen or objective grabber.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/02 01:44:59


Post by: Dakka Flakka Flame


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I would love warbikes to deal mortal wounds on the charge. This seems like it makes most fluff sense to me to represent them charging in to combat like maniacs. Evil sunz should be able to leave combat and charge to make them even more potent.

Warbikes used to get to shoot their guns a second time rather than making regular close combat attacks when they charged. It was a pretty powerful ability back in 3rd and 4th.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/02 08:05:27


Post by: Blackie


Bikes simply need to be more durable. They should have some rules that replace Jink and Exhaust Cloud: a flat 5+ invuln or a +1 or even +2 to their cover save if they moved in the previous turn. Otherwise they would always evaporate against anything with an AP-2 or better.

I'd bring 21-22 points bikes with one of those rules.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/02 08:16:03


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Well ideally they'd be more durable and more killy. There needs to be a reason to take them instead of Boyz + weirdboy and I think mortal wounds might be a good reason.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/02 11:19:31


Post by: Glane


D6 damage on Power Klaws would be a good change. Orks rely on getting up close to kill most things since our shooting is too poor, but PKs just can't get the job done, even when you take a lot of them. A Warboss ending up next to a tank used to be bad news for that tank; now, he statistically doesn't even kill a Rhino. In fact a Warboss needs to swing and hit and wound with all 4 of his attacks at 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound and roll above average on his damage in order to kill a Rhino.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/02 21:59:09


Post by: Dakka Flakka Flame


To be fair very few things outside of Lords of War will kill a Rhino without substantial buffs. Rhinos are tough in 8th.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ork characters getting access to a better power klaw that does d6 or a flat 3 damage.

Along similar lines I think it would be good if they had Kustom Choppas and Kustom Sluggas that are somewhat better than regular sluggas and choppas and cost 0 or 1 point. That might make them worth taking on Nobz, and Nobz already come with much bigger sluggas and choppas than regular Boyz.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/02 22:22:13


Post by: Grimskul


I'm in the same camp of having more durable bikes for roughly around the same points and maybe slightly more damaging firepower. Currently, big shootas are underwhelming on basically any platform you take them on and I think their points cost would be more justified if they were at least AP -1. Variants of them, like the dakkagun, should also be AP-1 so that when it does hit, it at least does something. As far as survivability goes, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up getting a -1 to hit from shooting attacks buff when they advance to reflect the exhaust clouds, since that way it doesn't step on the toes of KFF's as much.







Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/02 22:27:22


Post by: davou


 Grimskul wrote:
I'm in the same camp of having more durable bikes for roughly around the same points and maybe slightly more damaging firepower. Currently, big shootas are underwhelming on basically any platform you take them on and I think their points cost would be more justified if they were at least AP -1. Variants of them, like the dakkagun, should also be AP-1 so that when it does hit, it at least does something. As far as survivability goes, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up getting a -1 to hit from shooting attacks buff when they advance to reflect the exhaust clouds, since that way it doesn't step on the toes of KFF's as much.


I'd be interested in a big shoota squad similar to how tankbustas work except for hunting down infantry; I realize that this kinda steps on the feet of lootas, but it would give me somewhere to put the boatload of big shoota boys I've got

5-15 dudes, each with a big shoota, each re-rolling misses against infantry.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/02 22:39:10


Post by: Grimskul


 davou wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
I'm in the same camp of having more durable bikes for roughly around the same points and maybe slightly more damaging firepower. Currently, big shootas are underwhelming on basically any platform you take them on and I think their points cost would be more justified if they were at least AP -1. Variants of them, like the dakkagun, should also be AP-1 so that when it does hit, it at least does something. As far as survivability goes, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up getting a -1 to hit from shooting attacks buff when they advance to reflect the exhaust clouds, since that way it doesn't step on the toes of KFF's as much.


I'd be interested in a big shoota squad similar to how tankbustas work except for hunting down infantry; I realize that this kinda steps on the feet of lootas, but it would give me somewhere to put the boatload of big shoota boys I've got

5-15 dudes, each with a big shoota, each re-rolling misses against infantry.


I feel that, if anything, that it would step less on Loota's toes (who with D2 are more interested in attacking bikes and elite infantry) and more on Flash Gitz. Big Shoota Boyz would pretty much be strictly better than Flash Gitz if we implemented the ideas we proposed since they can fit more bodies together in a trukk/battlewagon on the move without losing accuracy and having longer range. I think it this is indicative of how certain units in our codex that should fill those roles, i.e. Flash Gitz, are either so subpar or require too many other elements in your army to make it work that they don't register as options for us. Flash Gitz gun profile should have stayed as Assault 3 and they should at least have a 4+ save on top of having options to boost their BS like gitfindas. Maybe even reflect their exorbitant wealth by allowing you to purchase a transport exclusively for them at a discount, like 30 points less.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/03 07:57:56


Post by: Blackie


I think we already have flash gitz for that role, which basically are equipped with a big shoota with better AP. Just make snazzguns assault or rapid fire and give them the 4+ save every nob has.

But also warbikes are basically boyz with 2 big shootas. I don't think a unit of 5-15 dudes with big shootas would be a great add, I'd prefer to improve the already existing units which are very similar to a full squad of guys with big shootas.

The AP-1 is very needed, big shootas are basically heavy bolters, they should have the same AP.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/04 12:26:41


Post by: Nazrak


Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/04 12:54:58


Post by: SemperMortis


I would really like Warbikers to gain some serious Durability. I tried fielding them early in 8th and they were just trash. Anytime they got in range they were so decimated by enemy fire that they ran away or were ineffective. Really they need a 4++ Save and -1AP as well as either 3 more shots or better BS on the shots we have to justify them costing 27ppm. They cost more then TWICE as much as 2 Big Shoota Boyz, and nobody even takes the Big Shoota boyz because they are trash as well.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/04 15:33:15


Post by: vict0988


I think some problems come from the way the Formations are currently set up. Taking a Patrol detachment is a waste of pts since you are not getting CP, so unless you get access to a unique character, or awesome Stratagem. If you got 1 CP for each Patrol Detachment it would be far more plausible to take 2 Patrol Detachments with Orks from other klans than your main one.

As for the Grot rebellion I think that should be fixed by not requiring HQ in Outrider, Spearhead and Vanguard detachments. This would be good for so many factions where you might want to run an entirely vehicle-based list but don't have access to proper support characters or if you just don't want to break theme. It would also be great in themed lists like a Grot rebellion or Canoptek initial defence force, where Characters don't fit. You won't get a Warlord Trait or a Relic without a Character, I think that's bad enough. Forcing characters down player's throats is not much fun.

I made a Codex for the Orks with 6 Klans, 26 Stratagems, 11 Relics and 12 Warlord traits. I don't think speed freaks need a trait of their own as it is more of a playstyle than anything and Evil Sunz already fit well enough. Kaptin Badrukk does not have a klan so I think it's fair to say the pirate Orks won't get a klan, hopefully they'll get a buff of some kind to make up for it.

Find it here: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Angrier_Initiative#ORKS


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/04 18:56:05


Post by: leopard


 Nazrak wrote:
Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).


Grots need expanding, they are not as bad as some people seem to think - for an army that wants to advance I see the main purpose as following the boyz, not leading them - blocking stuff deep striking close enough behind that I care.

Would love more or a role for them though


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/05 19:16:26


Post by: BigMekIronGob


You clearly put a lot of thought into this and for that I salute you.

Also the stompa is way to overpriced at the moment and defiantly deserves that points reduction (a similar reduction for the Kustom stompa would also be much appreciated)


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/08 09:56:38


Post by: Nazrak


leopard wrote:
 Nazrak wrote:
Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).


Grots need expanding, they are not as bad as some people seem to think - for an army that wants to advance I see the main purpose as following the boyz, not leading them - blocking stuff deep striking close enough behind that I care.

Would love more or a role for them though

I agree – I think they definitely serve a purpose, but I think they’re just a little bit too much expensive for that purpose right now.


Orks: Fixes and Changes for the New Codex @ 2018/01/18 15:20:35


Post by: Ditchcricket


I noticed that there is a tankbusta bomb on the boyz sprue. I wonder ifn his could could give trukk boyz more purpose. Squad of ten boys with a nob and a bomma? Would just giving one boy in a squad access to those be worth paying for it? Or would it be too strong?