There's always a lot of talk about how some units/factions are either severely over- or under-powered, but what units has 8th hit correctly for their points costs?

Noise Marines imo.

Perfectly costed and not useless, with decent options to make them good (not fantastic, just good) at everything.

To be fair, this has basically been them for the past 3 editions. There's two reasons people didn't field them and that was because you needed to buy an expensive upgrade kit to get their options AND because Plague Marines and plague zombies were just so much better.

But Noise Marines are pretty good for their cost.

Vespids. Now they only need a good plastic model with more options.

You can hate me but I think that a standard leman russ, Predators, and hellhounds are in the right place when it comes to a well costed unit. Not too cheap that you HAVE to take it and not too much that you doubt yourself when selecting it.

I feel sorry for the pred. For what was suppose to be the most iconic space marine vehicle, it seldom sees use simply because it's too "boring" and other things do what it does better.

I love the model though, and really wish they weren't 70 bucks a pop, otherwise I'd have an entire army of them (I'll even paint them Blue so I can take one in the HQ slot with Cronus).

TAC marines.

Troops in general like grey hunters, blood claws, necron warriors, gaunts, ork boyz, kabalite warriors, firewarriors, sisters, eldar guardians, harlequins troupe... there are some undercosted troops and some other units that are very lackluster but I think troops in general are fairly costed.

Sydonian Dragoons are quickly working their way into the status of being one of my favourite units. They are super versatile in their application, being great at area denial and tying enemy units up, while also being able to throw some passable weight behind their swings. They have a great combination of features behind their statline, weapons, and abilities, but nothing really sticks out in any one way as being blatantly overpowered. They're just a solid workhorse of a unit that can do a lot of things in a pinch, and are super fun to play with because of that.

The best part is that because what they do is so wide reaching in its functionality, they don't really end up competing with anything else for any one specific goal, meaning that they rarely feel outclassed in whatever you might set them to do.

I was going to say Sydonian Dragoons for one of mine as well.

Personally I'm a real fan of Dark Eldar troops and the way they mix and match into a Raider transport. Wyches, Warriors, Incubi, Wracks, and until recently Scourges and Hellions (RIP Dark Eldar flexibility 2017) can be mixed and matched for a wonderful array of applications with each having their pluses and minuses.

I was going to say Tacs as well.

So many troops in the game feel like they're within 10-15% of eachother, but are simply better at different things. For instance:

-Tacs (SM/CSM/BA/etc)
-Scouts
-Guardians
-Fire Warriors
-Harlequins
-Fire Warriors
-Ork Boyz

I feel like each of those does different things, such that they're each a tradeoff. I think some are a little better overall than the others, but it feels like - in a vacuum - they're all about on the same page.

Throw in Robout Gilleman or other gak, and it breaks down. But on their face, they each feel right.

There are some trash troops (Kroot), and balance as a whole sucks at the edges (top competitive or bottom sucks-to-be-Martel (BA have no OP gak) ), but the middle seems so much more balanced across more books than it's been.

Space Marine Dreadnaughts & Helbrutes. Every previous edition I've seen them, Dreadnaughts have been a unit brought in for the love of the game, or because they were carrying double-ranged loadouts. Any time they were taken with the "fist + weapon" loadout, they were blown up early and never really impacted the game. Even when an enemy's army couldn't blow it up, staying away from it was easy.

Now, Dreadnaughts are much faster, and their weapons are often more impactful. They're not crazy difficult to kill, but they're also not easy to kill, which is a great middle ground. As a Chaos player, I put my Helbrute into almost all my lists because it's great fire support, and packs a wallop against vehicles or low-tier characters in close combat.

I used Helbrutes in 7th after the "4 attacks Errata." I found that it took more shots to kill them than it was generally worth, and Chaos Marines were pretty flexible with Psychic buffs/debuffs. I "did" use Havocs now and then, but the problem was they were a static element in an army that wanted to swamp the midfield, and their improved firepower meant less if a unit from Reserves got the drop on them.

There was a fringe build of Purifiers and BA Librarian Dreads (via the Chapter Ancients formation) I wanted to experiment with for comedic value but that build isn't a thing.

As for most balanced unit for 8th...hmm. Ork Weirdboyz, probably. They are quite amusing as a mobile smite battery in a mob, while not being as crazy-underpriced as Malefic Lords.

Tacs are overcosted for the current meta for sure. Fire warriors are too cheap at 8 pts. If tacs were as good as people say, ba wouldn't need op stuff.

Was gonna say predators.

I'm going to go with Terminators. They don't work in comp because they're aren't enough of them to benefit from Raven Guard or Gillyflower bullcaca but in a gack-less game they're a solid, survivable ground pounder. Especially now that they can jump back to their teleport beacon.

Too much overcharged plasma for terminators to be fairly priced.

Just means Storm shields are better than ever.
In addition while there is alot of plasma jumping around, the price of drop pods makes it far less likely to show up out of nowhere. Just teleport strike to dodge it and you're good.

No, because you still lose entire models on a 1 or 2.

And the shooter loses the model with the expensive gun on a 1.

Come now. You know there will be mass rerolls or guardsmen who don't matter if they die. Yes, it sucks for meqs w/o rerolls. As if that's a thing in 8th. Terminators are just as useless as ever.

If you run wolf termies at minimum cost it's 37 pts per model, for that you get a deep striking 2+/5++ that fires 4 times, and has 2 wounds. For barely over twice the cost of a vanilla marine you get twice the wounds, twice the shooting, deep strike, better armor, an invuln and a power weapon to boot. And like I said, Plasma is easy to spot and easy to dodge.

You didn't say space cheese terminators, you just said terminators. BA terminators are a dumpster fire.

If you are deepstriking your terminators in Plasma range you are playing them wrong.

You may not have a choice depending on enemy list composition or objective considerations.

Regular terminators run at a measly 40 ppm and that extra 3 points nets you a freekin power fist.

I was expecting more of "the best units in my faction/s are balanced" and less of "these basic things from across many armies".

Anyway, the best balanced units will obviously not be the OP standout units, so saying a unit isn't balanced because it struggles in the current meta is missing the point.

Overcharged Plasma is clearly OP by the way. As in, the abbreviation for it is literally OP.

40 pp is a fortune in a game about 4-8 ppm bubblewrap.

Also, try playing vs double exocrine w/bubblewrap with terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What's the balance point then? Some theoretical generic list, or the ljsts i actually have to face?

Forget bubble wrap you're playing terminators. Just smash stuff then teleport back to the objectves at the last second.

You don't live past step 1 in my experience. The local terminator fan lost 22 terminators vs nids in two turns. The harpy gun does 2 damage, exocrines are brutal and they have mass mortal wounds. Good luck.

Cream - in that case Shining Spears.

Can do some funky things. Scary shooting. Hard hitting first round of CC. Not a lot of attacks. Large footprint. Lots of points for 2W T4 3+.

May even start dipping into the OP end, but I don't think so.

Well don't play ALL terminators. Playing ALL of anything should get you punished. You've got to be flexible.

I stand by that it's a balanced unit for it's cost. That doesn't mean they should be played exclusively.

 MattKing wrote:
Well don't play ALL terminators. Playing ALL of anything should get you punished. You've got to be flexible.

He had 25. Plenty of other stuff in the list. But those 25 terminators did nothing but kill gaunts and die. He was not given a choice by the tyranid player. I stand by then being significany overcosted given how the game plays. Screening units ruin them.

Scions with the new cost for their weapons

I like meganobz. 2+ armor is effectively a 5+ invlun, which we haven't had in a long time (only an ork would celebrate having a 5++). They picked up another wound, good strength and attacks, don't always attack last, are buffable with warbossi, waaagh banners, teleporting, but are good on their own.

They're just a touch overpriced (more specifically, power klaws and kustom shootas are ludicrously overpriced), but are still a good value to me.

Ork Boyz IMHO. It's other units that are comparable that are just WAY undercosted. Ork Boyz should be the benchmark for cheap en masse bodies. Conscripts should cost the same as an Ork Boy.

I think sentinels from the IG codex are well balanced. Flexible, cheap enough to get a couple groups, and offer good board control through numbers/movement.

Even the difference between armored and scout are well done for the minor differences scouts being 5 points cheaper w/ 9 inch movement and a pre-game scout move. Compared the Armored w/ 8 inch, +1 armor and Toughness.

When I see them I don't know what my opponent will want to do with them and it makes me enjoy the game not knowing how the opponent will play his army.

Personally I'm really liking a lot of the CSM options, also a big fan of the IG tank commander in general (though Pask could use a price bump)

 Marmatag wrote:
Ork Boyz IMHO. It's other units that are comparable that are just WAY undercosted. Ork Boyz should be the benchmark for cheap en masse bodies. Conscripts should cost the same as an Ork Boy.

Why would a Conscript, with lower Weapon Skill, lower Strength, lower Toughness, fewer attacks, dramatically lower Leadership, less capable weapons (24" S3 Rapid Fire 1 Lasgun vs 18" S4 Assault 2 Shoota or S4 Pistol and an extra Attack with the Choppa), and only a slightly better save and an extra 1" of movement, cost the same as an Ork Boy? The Ork Boy is markedly superior (and should be).

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
(only an ork would celebrate having a 5++)

Hey man, the Inquisition is sitting there right along side you. I remember when we could take storm shields... or rosariuses... hell, even power armour!

For my 91st Cadians, I will say it has to be the Baneblade. Nothing comes close to drawing the enemy's attention than putting one of them on the table.

For my Black Legion, Chaos Terminators, take that role. Whether you want to teleport them into combat or give them their chosen ride of a Land Raider, they serve their purpose of drawing down the heat!

Or boys could be costed the same as conscripts because of the context in which they exist. In a vacuum, yes they should be worth more than conscripts. But one might consider what conscripts do for IG, and for the imperium at large given how open the allies system is to “Imperial soup”

Now, I’m not sure if bumping conscripts to the same cost as Boys would be the right move, but I wouldn’t dismiss the idea out of hand necessarily.

I don’t think I’ve played enough 8E to have a real opinion on what’s balanced, but I’m reasonably happy with the basic Battle Sister Squad, at 9ppm they’re decent. Not sure why they can’t do units of 20 anymore, that sucks because I thought that was fun, but whatever. The issue is it seems to be more effective to pay 10 ppm for Dominions and get a free vanguard move and access to all-you-care-to-field storm bolters (not that I think pure Sisters are OP, just that they’re in a better place now, but their dependence on Dominions hasn’t lessened).

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Well don't play ALL terminators. Playing ALL of anything should get you punished. You've got to be flexible.

He had 25. Plenty of other stuff in the list. But those 25 terminators did nothing but kill gaunts and die. He was not given a choice by the tyranid player. I stand by then being significany overcosted given how the game plays. Screening units ruin them.

An army of 25 terminators is really bad. 5-7 terminators, if played correctly, are a decent unit. I sometimes play wolf guard terminators, equipped with heavy melee stuff and deepstriking, usually with Arjac to buff them but not always. They're certainly not bad, a little bit overpriced maybe (I've magnetized the models but with the typical loadout I choose for them 5 dudes cost 267 points) but not that much considering wulfen and TWC prices. Also not every army has effective screening units.

Martel732 wrote:
Tacs are overcosted for the current meta for sure. Fire warriors are too cheap at 8 pts. If tacs were as good as people say, ba wouldn't need op stuff.

Was gonna say predators.

Typically, you're going to find that the most balanced units are those that have a clearly defined role, generally reliable, not reliant on GW correctly pricing complex special rules, and without a crapton of options that need to be correctly priced.

sadly, in the era of "this new Marine unit has rocket launcher shoulders, powerfists with inbuilt assault cannons, nipple flamers, lascannon shoes, and now, finally, rules for Space Marine acid spit in close combat!" you're unlikely to ever see a nicely balanced unit released.

... Until Asurmen does 15 unsaved wounds to the TH/SS termies in 1 round of CC.

That player hated me...

Termies in a combined arms setup seem more balanced/capable than Termies as the focus or as part of a pure melee list.

Sure, they can be shot off the table. But then, typically, the rest of your list - or most o it - should still be intact.

Nice theory. In practice, not so much. Plus, if a unit is truly balanced, taking 25 of them shouldn't be a deal breaker, right?

Martel732 wrote:
Nice theory. In practice, not so much. Plus, if a unit is truly balanced, taking 25 of them shouldn't be a deal breaker, right?

In theory yes. In practice no. A unit that has good survivability but can't do much damage is still balanced, but an entire army of them is useless since you can't deal damage. Conversely a unit can do a lot of damage and be easy to take out is still balanced, but would also be useless in a protracted firefight since they'd all die to a stiff breeze. Just like how a hammer is a well designed tool for pushing nails in, but if all you have are hammers in your toolbox, you're not gonna have a fun time trying to cut a piece of wood in half.

Martel732 wrote:
Nice theory. In practice, not so much. Plus, if a unit is truly balanced, taking 25 of them shouldn't be a deal breaker, right?

It depends. If the opponent has tons of anti tank or several ways to inflict mortal wounds then armored multiwounds units are not that great. But also against armies with tons of cheap bodies and maybe also very fast. Some units can be decent or even good if combined with something else but not very effective if they are the bulk of the army. If you field an army with mostly units of the same kind you may go into the rock-paper-scissors syndrome, in which you may be invincible against someone but extremely weak against someone else.

Truly balanced also should mean "average-good", not "auto-take", that would means overpowered or under priced, certainly not truly balanced.

I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Look at it this way.

Robout Gilliman (gave on on SP) is OP.

If you could take an army of him - as many of him that fit - would that army be OP?

People claim Conscripts are OP. Is an army with nothing but Conscripts stronger than an army with Conscripts backed by other things?

Balanced shouldn't require an army of just-it to actually do well.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

I know your BA hateboner is long and hard this edition (as usual) but this isn't really the case that I've seen.

Tactical terminators take dedicated weapons (e.g. overcharged plasma) to take out.

I actually think that Baneblades are vulnerable to more types of weapons than Tactical Terminators - not only is overcharged plasma effective against them, but so are the heavy AT guns that are inefficient against terminators (e.g. lascannons) and they are as vulnerable to lasguns as Terminators are.

"Tactical terminators take dedicated weapons (e.g. overcharged plasma) to take out. "

No, they don't. Any -1 AP will do. Lascannons are pretty efficient vs terminators lol.

This has nothing to do with BA. Any terminator in any chapter in any list seems better replaced by another unit. That doesn't sound like balance to me. BA get predators, which ARE balanced, but don't get bobby G to make them amazing.


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Bharring wrote:
Look at it this way.

Robout Gilliman (gave on on SP) is OP.

If you could take an army of him - as many of him that fit - would that army be OP?

People claim Conscripts are OP. Is an army with nothing but Conscripts stronger than an army with Conscripts backed by other things?

Balanced shouldn't require an army of just-it to actually do well.

I get that, but terminators can't even accomplish what they're being claimed to be able to accomplish. They die MISERSABLY to overcharge plasma, but they die SUFFICIENTLY to any -1 AP, because that halves their suvivability.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

But those -1 AP weapons aren't shooting your ASMs/Devs/Tacs.

Bharring wrote:
But those -1 AP weapons aren't shooting your ASMs/Devs/Tacs.

I could have just had more units that aren't trash.

Rephrased:
But those -1 AP weapons aren't shooting your [not trash units].

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I never thought 2 W terminators would do a thing. And, look! it didn't. I never thought any of those things mattered. And they don't. Marines will never have enough bolter shots to matter, especially at AP 0 in 8th ed. Assaulting from deep strike is a fool's gambit on a 9+. Even then, you are guaranteed to hit a screening unit and accomplish nothing before getting shot to death. If they even bother to shoot them.

Like almost every marine unit that isn't holding a lascannon or assualt cannon, some way to get around screening units is critical. Terminators are basically turned off by gaunts, conscripts, and cultists 100% of the time. They can't chop through them in a reasonable amount of time, and they are beta struck over and over as the screening unit waltzes out of CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Rephrased:
But those -1 AP weapons aren't shooting your [not trash units].

I could just bring more lascannons and assault cannons instead.

 Blackie wrote:
Truly balanced also should mean "average-good", not "auto-take", that would means overpowered or under priced, certainly not truly balanced.

I agree with this statement. A truly balanced list should have me going "which one should I take?" at almost every stage of list building, ideally even when picking factions.

I've always seen termies as a sort of reverse-screen. Think Rook in chess. Those gaunts/conscripts/cultists won't do much to stop your other assets if they're busy fighting those termies.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I never thought 2 W terminators would do a thing. And, look! it didn't.

Like almost every marine unit that isn't holding a lascannon or assualt cannon, some way to get around screening units is critical. Terminators are basically turned off by gaunts, conscripts, and cultists 100% of the time. They can't chop through them in a reasonable amount of time, and they are beta struck over and over as the screening unit waltzes out of CC.

Man, if only there were armies other than Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. I hate this game with only 4 factions.

Bharring wrote:
I've always seen termies as a sort of reverse-screen. Think Rook in chess. Those gaunts/conscripts/cultists won't do much to stop your other assets if they're busy fighting those termies.

After you pay for the terminators, you don't HAVE other assets. These are marines here, not IG. Also, there's always more gaunts if you are playing marines, lol.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I never thought 2 W terminators would do a thing. And, look! it didn't.

Like almost every marine unit that isn't holding a lascannon or assualt cannon, some way to get around screening units is critical. Terminators are basically turned off by gaunts, conscripts, and cultists 100% of the time. They can't chop through them in a reasonable amount of time, and they are beta struck over and over as the screening unit waltzes out of CC.

Man, if only there were armies other than Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. I hate this game with only 4 factions.

Every competent list has screening units at this point. Terminators are ironically most potent against other loyalists who aren't bringing in conscripts.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I've always seen termies as a sort of reverse-screen. Think Rook in chess. Those gaunts/conscripts/cultists won't do much to stop your other assets if they're busy fighting those termies.

After you pay for the terminators, you don't HAVE other assets. These are marines here, not IG.

Wow, my codex must have a printing error; to me, it looks like Terminators are an order of magnitude too cheap to take up an entire 2000 point army.


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Martel732 wrote:
Every competent list has screening units at this point. Terminators are ironically most potent against other loyalists who aren't bringing in conscripts.

Yeah you're right, especially that tournament winning list whose cheapest model was Tactical Squads.

I think Tactical Squads are an excellent screen.

They're a gak screen, but passable because of the rate at which the Bobby G party gets gak done.

This many posters REALLY think terminators are balanced? Okay, then. I REALLY want to play you guys.

Martel732 wrote:
They're a gak screen, but passable because of the rate at which the Bobby G party gets gak done.

This many posters REALLY think terminators are balanced? Okay, then. I REALLY want to play you guys.

Where do you live? I'd be happy to throw down.

Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

Bharring wrote:
Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

I'm not acknowledging that as a thing until I see it happen more. I truly believe he lucked his way into that placing, because his list is pure trash. Mathematically, primaris = unplayable trash.

You seem to think that the mark of a "good" or "balanced" unit is that you can place it in it's worst case scenario charge it directly into the teeth of the enemy's guns and expect it to do well. This is not so. If you take a unit of 5 terminators and use them as intended they will do very well for their cost. That is, if you hold them in reserve, then place them where they need to be, which is NOT within 12" of a squad of plasma gunners, they can take and hold objectives or assassinate a tank or artillery piece. They can then instantly jump back to the other side of the board to grab a second objective. They are not the end-all be all of 8th edition. They are a useful tool and are worth their cost in the roll they play. And no, the mark of a balanced model is not that you can spam them, it is that they perfectly fit the role they were designed for.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

I'm not acknowledging that as a thing until I see it happen more. I truly believe he lucked his way into that placing, because his list is pure trash.

"I'm ignoring the data that does not conform with my preconceived notions."

Okay then.

When the enemy plasma gunners are falling from the sky, how do you know where to place your terminators? Or exocrines, where this basically nowhere to go that they can't shoot you and have your own weapons in range.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

I'm not acknowledging that as a thing until I see it happen more. I truly believe he lucked his way into that placing, because his list is pure trash.

"I'm ignoring the data that does not conform with my preconceived notions."

Okay then.

I'm ignoring this datum, not data.

Martel732 wrote:
When the enemy plasma gunners are falling from the sky, how do you know where to place your terminators?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

I'm not acknowledging that as a thing until I see it happen more. I truly believe he lucked his way into that placing, because his list is pure trash.

"I'm ignoring the data that does not conform with my preconceived notions."

Okay then.

I'm ignoring this datum, not data.

Oh, sorry.

"I'm ignoring this datum because it does not conform with my preconceived notions." is certainly a much more reasonable statement. /sarcasm

If I see it happen more than once, I'll reconsider. Until then, this was pure luck to me. I'm valuing mathematical abstraction over a single datum. That's actually pretty standard practice in science.

Martel732 wrote:
If I see it happen more than once, I'll reconsider. Until then, this was pure luck to me. I'm valuing mathematical abstraction over a single datum. That's actually pretty standard practice in science.

I'm going to hold you to this, then, next time it happens. Need me to bookmark the thread or do you honestly think one more Tournament win with tactical marines will make you reconsider?

EDIT:
In reply to your edit: don't be disingenuous. You're not valuing mathematical abstraction as tactical marines are not mathematically as bad as people make them out to be. You're merely valuing your preconceived notions that they're bad higher than both the abstract mathematics and the actual evidence.

That would be in a scenario when the fool paid for a stern-guard squad in a pod or is playing scions. In the first scenario drop pods are a mess, so I'm not worried about that, in the second, place them where after the drop the scions will be useless for the rest of the game. Them bitches are slow. Use your brain, think tactically.

No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

I don't understand what you are saying here - you're saying that Tactical Marines aren't so bad or?

 MattKing wrote:
That would be in a scenario when the fool paid for a stern-guard squad in a pod or is playing scions. In the first scenario drop pods are a mess, so I'm not worried about that, in the second, place them where after the drop the scions will be useless for the rest of the game. Them bitches are slow. Use your brain, think tactically.

Not necessarily useless. If you drop terminators next to an objective, they're gonna fry you and be close to that objective. This game seems to be about trading squad for squad, and marines are really bad at that given their costs.

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
That would be in a scenario when the fool paid for a stern-guard squad in a pod or is playing scions. In the first scenario drop pods are a mess, so I'm not worried about that, in the second, place them where after the drop the scions will be useless for the rest of the game. Them bitches are slow. Use your brain, think tactically.

Not necessarily useless. If you drop terminators next to an objective, they're gonna fry you and be close to that objective. This game seems to be about trading squad for squad, and marines are really bad at that given their costs.

I think he was saying then: don't drop the terminators near an objective.

"This game seems to be about trading squad for squad"

Ah. This is why we're having difficulty. I'm guessing you never got past the concept of "even trading" in chess.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

I don't understand what you are saying here - you're saying that Tactical Marines aren't so bad or?

They're trash in general and can't be used for general work, but in this particular case, they are passable because of lascannons/2+ armor/BobbyG/asscannon party. They don't need staying power because those asscannons evaporate the threat so quickly.

If BA try to replicate this, it will likely fail because of no chapter tactic/no Bobby G. And honestly, I don't know any BA players with six asscannon razors.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

I don't understand what you are saying here - you're saying that Tactical Marines aren't so bad or?

They're trash in general and can't be used for general work, but in this particular case, they are passable because of lascannons/2+ armor/BobbyG/asscannon party.

If BA try to replicate this, it will likely fail because of no chapter tactic/no Bobby G. And honestly, I don't know any BA players with six asscannon razors.

Passable? Or - dare I say it - pretty good?

 MattKing wrote:
"This game seems to be about trading squad for squad"

Ah. This is why we're having difficulty. I'm guessing you never got past the concept of "even trading" in chess.

Yeah, I did. But I haven't played chess in a long time. I know there are other considerations, but I'm having difficulty not being tabled atm. So running out of marines is a big consideration for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

I don't understand what you are saying here - you're saying that Tactical Marines aren't so bad or?

They're trash in general and can't be used for general work, but in this particular case, they are passable because of lascannons/2+ armor/BobbyG/asscannon party.

If BA try to replicate this, it will likely fail because of no chapter tactic/no Bobby G. And honestly, I don't know any BA players with six asscannon razors.

Passable? Or - dare I say it - pretty good?

No, they're not good. Only passable, because guardsmen with lascannons would be better for the same cost.

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
"This game seems to be about trading squad for squad"

Ah. This is why we're having difficulty. I'm guessing you never got past the concept of "even trading" in chess.

Yeah, I did. But I haven't played chess in a long time. I know there are other considerations, but I'm having difficulty not being tabled atm. So running out of marines is a big consideration for me.

What is your list and what are you facing? I'm just curious.

EDIT: You can PM me if you want.

Unit, in light of all of this, I will ask for yet another game if and when we meet.

I will use primaris marines. Prepare your butt for a whoppin >:3

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I have had 2 wound terminators for years, they still sucked. Now they're 3 wounds and still suck because they don't have ENOUGH quality for their price tag.

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

Primaris marines are like 60% more survivable per point against assault cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I have had 2 wound terminators for years, they still sucked. Now they're 3 wounds and still suck because they don't have ENOUGH quality for their price tag.

same offense as a strike marine for almost 3 times the cost....and don't have 3x the durability ether...

I have many lists, because I haven't found one that works at all. Turns out my mistake all along was bringing units that punch things. Silly me.

I'm now just going to try to approximate the UM list, because that's my only real option.

I play vs a lot of Mechdar, Nidzilla, Nid hordes, Ad mech, and of course, IG now.

"Primaris marines are like 60% more survivable per point against assault cannons."

So? They get 5 shots per 100 pts. At that rate, you'll win by turn 256.

GK termies are WAY overcosted. No argument here. They NEED storm shields

I don't know what to say. You can deepstrike units as late as third turn. And yeah "But all my games end by second turn!" My experience differs. With enough terrain that isn't the case and even less with all the -1 to hit in 12" tactics that are out today in the meta.

I NEVER deepstrike my Terminators in turn 1 or even 2 if I don't have a perfect objetive. Is just STUPID to deepstrike your terminators and charge the perfectly deployed chaff of your enemy on turn 1. One need to wait for a good opener in their defense, made by them moving to claim objetives or concentrating your fire on a flank or part of the enemy army.

Martel732 wrote:
I have many lists, because I haven't found one that works at all. Turns out my mistake all along was bringing units that punch things. Silly me.

I'm now just going to try to approximate the UM list, because that's my only real option.

I play vs a lot of Mechdar, Nidzilla, Nid hordes, Ad mech, and of course, IG now.

"Primaris marines are like 60% more survivable per point against assault cannons."

So? They get 5 shots per 100 pts. At that rate, you'll win by turn 256.

I was going to do some maths; but to do that I need more specificity sadly, on both lists. Essentially I was going to do your job for you and see if it's possible for you to bring a list that doesn't get tabled.

 Galas wrote:
I don't know what to say. You can deepstrike units as late as third turn. And yeah "But all my games end by second turn!" My experience differs. With enough terrain that isn't the case and even less with all the -1 to hit in 12" tactics that are out today in the meta.

I NEVER deepstrike my Terminators in turn 1 or even 2 if I don't have a perfect objetive. Is just STUPID to deepstrike your terminators and charge the perfectly deployed chaff of your enemy on turn 1. One need to way for a good opener in their defense, made by their moving to claim objetives or concentrating your fire on a flank or part of the enemy army.

Because I have time to hold my units back while the conscripts swarm the objectives and the Manticores and basiliks pound me for the first two turns? So my glorious terminators can make their entrance and smoke 20 pts of IG models? If you hold them back as you describe, the enemy is STILL getting what they want. They're gonna make you hit a screen until you commit all your DS stuff, and then they'll leave openings. They have the model coverage to do this, marines don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fething Nids have way too many cheap mortal wounds. That also spells doom for terminators. And the harpy gun doing 2 damage is excessive, imo.

 Galas wrote:
I don't know what to say. You can deepstrike units as late as third turn. And yeah "But all my games end by second turn!" My experience differs. With enough terrain that isn't the case and even less with all the -1 to hit in 12" tactics that are out today in the meta.

I NEVER deepstrike my Terminators in turn 1 or even 2 if I don't have a perfect objetive. Is just STUPID to deepstrike your terminators and charge the perfectly deployed chaff of your enemy on turn 1. One need to wait for a good opener in their defense, made by them moving to claim objetives or concentrating your fire on a flank or part of the enemy army.

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the problems on this forum can be solved if people were introduced to tactics more complex than "point and attack". Seriously almost all discussions of whether "x unit is worse than y unit" makes you think two units are just marching up a flat table with nothing else around.

This isn't going anywhere and seems to be devolving fast.

As an attempt to get back on track, Purestrain genestealers I also feel are balanced. They fill their role well, and can be wiped by a good round of shooting. with cult ambush they're a solid assassination unit.

The GSC version is pretty good, but the Nid version is just downright dirty. For a while I was actually afraid of people calling me a cheesemonger just because I had 40 of the things on day 1 of the index.

Agreed on genestealers. Maybe a little too cheap given the rest of the codex, but really close.

If Nids weren't the mortal wound block party, they wouldn't be as suspect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have many lists, because I haven't found one that works at all. Turns out my mistake all along was bringing units that punch things. Silly me.

I'm now just going to try to approximate the UM list, because that's my only real option.

I play vs a lot of Mechdar, Nidzilla, Nid hordes, Ad mech, and of course, IG now.

"Primaris marines are like 60% more survivable per point against assault cannons."

So? They get 5 shots per 100 pts. At that rate, you'll win by turn 256.

I was going to do some maths; but to do that I need more specificity sadly, on both lists. Essentially I was going to do your job for you and see if it's possible for you to bring a list that doesn't get tabled.

I'm just gonna spam lascannons like the UM guy and cower in cover. Because that's the paradigm now.

"all the -1 to hit in 12" tactics that are out today in the meta. "

BA seem to be fresh out of those. As are SW and DA.

If the opponent has all of his PGs on one objective, go to another one. Typically, there are 6.

If your opponent splits his forces up evenly, roll up on one at a time.

Last time I faced Termies, sure, they weren't a problem. But that's because he deepstruck them where I wanted him to (behind the centerfield LOS-blocking piece), so I could unload my entire army (sans 2 units) into the one squad. Then charge with my entire army (sans 4 units). All into 1 squad. If termies could handle that, they'd be OP, not balanced. (Also, Asurmen did 15 wounds, lolwtf). He let me divide his forces into 3 equal parts, and bring the entirety of mine down on each third, one after another.

Time before that, Termies were used to push one flank, backed by other SM tools. They soaked too much fire, and could destroy anything they were allowed to CC with.
This forced me to back away from his push.
Backing away meant my units couldn't effectively engage the Termies support.
Sure, the termies did die eventually, but less than half of his army took out more than half of mine. And we're talking Rhinos, Tacs, and Termies.

I'm not sure splitting the Marines into their constituent factions was great from a 'dex perspective. Wolves, DA, and BA could all do with just being in the updated Dex and getting Chapter Tactics.

That way, I think they'd be less bad.

Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

 MattKing wrote:
Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

Wolves are crap. I even beat them with my terrible faction.

Wolves can give their 15pt sternguard storm shields and jump packs.

Bouncy killy dakka.

Bharring wrote:
If the opponent has all of his PGs on one objective, go to another one. Typically, there are 6.

If your opponent splits his forces up evenly, roll up on one at a time.

Last time I faced Termies, sure, they weren't a problem. But that's because he deepstruck them where I wanted him to (behind the centerfield LOS-blocking piece), so I could unload my entire army (sans 2 units) into the one squad. Then charge with my entire army (sans 4 units). All into 1 squad. If termies could handle that, they'd be OP, not balanced. (Also, Asurmen did 15 wounds, lolwtf). He let me divide his forces into 3 equal parts, and bring the entirety of mine down on each third, one after another.

Time before that, Termies were used to push one flank, backed by other SM tools. They soaked too much fire, and could destroy anything they were allowed to CC with.
This forced me to back away from his push.
Backing away meant my units couldn't effectively engage the Termies support.
Sure, the termies did die eventually, but less than half of his army took out more than half of mine. And we're talking Rhinos, Tacs, and Termies.

Was this marines vs marines? No, I see Eldar. Eldar don't have good screening units, either, so terminators might kinda work there. Although mechdar doesn't care at all about them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MattKing wrote:
Wolves can give their 15pt sternguard storm shields and jump packs.

Bouncy killy dakka.

Okay, haven't seen that yet. Seems like that needs to be nerfed, though.

If you think Mechdar don't care about Termies, that's a whole different story.

Short version: You can either bubblewrap or jet around in vehicles. You don't have points for both. Termies, as part of a larger army, can crimp either style.

Not at all. Even if you get the assault off, powerfists are greatly neutered by the shielding.

Further, that first story it really didn't matter that I was playing CWE. Any combined arms faction would behave similarly. It was demonstrating that if you just drop Termies in their face, without supporting them, not only do they fail, but they should fail.

(Although shooting a single 5-man with my entire army and not killing it should say something, too. Needed CC to finish it off.)

Yeah 2W terminators, okay great, but now there are a lot of weapons that kill them outright. And due to their price tag, it's not ineffective to use heavy weaponry on them. Your heavy plasma, lascannons, or equivalents aren't wasted on terminators, because you're removing a huge chunk of the list. I had a unit of Paladins removed by a manticore. Justify that for me please. (this was early in 8th before i realized terminator armor = terrible death sentence.)

Most assault units in the marine codex/index are actually really good if they make it to what they want to fight. The problem is, in practice, they never do. I know i'm not going to convince people of this, because i'm arguing with people who fundamentally don't play 8th edition competitively, and haven't seen every table covered in screening units. Every solid meta army can screen incredibly well. The only one that can't really are Ynaari but they're so fast, and with Tasty Soul Crackers they chew through units like it's going out of style, making them super effective.

But every other meta army will screen you or handle you.

Tau will screen you with drones, and greater good your balls off, before flying away on the subsequent turn. You can't really assault them.

Anything Imperium will be choked with conscripts. We've covered this one.

Chaos has Brimstones, and a ton of smites. Your 2+/3++ TH/SS termies will eat mortal wounds just like everything else. Khorne Berzerkers that charge terminators will win that fight and they're much, much cheaper.

Harlequins will handle you in melee, because they're always dictating the engagement, so while they don't have screening units, they're so much faster, and protected by amazing transports, that they don't much mind an assault army.

Genestealer Cults will roflstomp you hardcore in melee, but they're *the* melee army in this edition so i'm not salty about that. They're good but they have weaknesses. They handle terminators super good like they always have. You could argue that terminators should be competitive against genestealers, but they simply aren't. What i'm saying is, while Terminators are total ass against GSC, that's okay because while that plunges the fluff it fits into the relative balance of marines vs gsc.

So yeah, terminators got a second wound.

But they are totally ineffective.

Remember when this thread was on track?
Peperidge farm rembemers.

I openly said you wouldn't use termies in comp. Comp is flooded with so much gack that if it doesn't have at least a 11/7 points proficiency you don't play it. I know this. HOWEVER in terms of BALANCE termies can make back their points when played well. They are a part of a BALANCED breakfast.

If every army you care about is only those you might see at the top table, you're limiting 'every army' to 3-ish out of over a dozen. I'd argue that what you need there isn't 'Balanced', it's 'OP'.

If a pure-CC SM list could beat anything in most other codicies, it'd be OP. I'm not saying Termies and Tacs can. I'm saying Termies and Tacs are reasonable tradeoffs compared to the average choices across all armies in the game.

I honestly don't even know what that looks like, so sure.

 Marmatag wrote:
I had a unit of Paladins removed by a manticore. Justify that for me please. (this was early in 8th before i realized terminator armor = terrible death sentence.)

In one turn or over the course of a game? Over the course of a game, ok, not too bad. In one turn? A Manticore will average 1.46 unsaved wounds on Paladins, for 2.92 average wounds inflicted. If a Manticore wiped out a Paladin unit in one turn, thats some highly abnormal luck.

Though yes, multidamage weapons and mortal wounds do tend to reduce Terminator/Paladin viability.

Bharring wrote:
If every army you care about is only those you might see at the top table, you're limiting 'every army' to 3-ish out of over a dozen. I'd argue that what you need there isn't 'Balanced', it's 'OP'.

Reread what you just said, are you literally arguing that you shouldn't prepare knowing what you will face?

This is 8th edition. If you build a list it NEEDS to be able to handle:

Astra Militarum / Guard
Chaos

Before you even consider anything else. These are the top two factions - in that order - and you will face them guaranteed no matter the event, unless you find yourself in the gakker.

I stand by my previous statement that Ork Boyz are balanced, and other cheap chaff are severely undercosted. Conscripts should be equal in cost to Boyz and Guardsmen should be more expensive. Orks are the canonical cheap bodies unit and they should do it better than ANYONE else. Including GSC, which they DO NOT.

They're talking about balance vs ALL units, not just what you'll actually see. I still think terminators are a hard fail from model count, but if you throw in all the terrible options from every codex, they look better.

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
If every army you care about is only those you might see at the top table, you're limiting 'every army' to 3-ish out of over a dozen. I'd argue that what you need there isn't 'Balanced', it's 'OP'.

Reread what you just said, are you literally arguing that you shouldn't prepare knowing what you will face?

This is 8th edition. If you build a list it NEEDS to be able to handle:

Astra Militarum / Guard
Chaos

Before you even consider anything else. These are the top two factions - in that order - and you will face them guaranteed no matter the event, unless you find yourself in the gakker.

I stand by my previous statement that Ork Boyz are balanced, and other cheap chaff are severely undercosted. Conscripts should be equal in cost to Boyz and Guardsmen should be more expensive. Orks are the canonical cheap bodies unit and they should do it better than ANYONE else. Including GSC, which they DO NOT.

again..why should Conscripts, which are markedly inferior to Ork Boyz in almost every way, cost as much as Ork Boyz?

Martel732 wrote:
They're talking about balance vs ALL units, not just what you'll actually see. I still think terminators are a hard fail from model count, but if you throw in all the terrible options from every codex, they look better.

LOL that's hilarious.

Any strategy game boils down to what units fit the meta and what units are effective. 40k's meta is incredibly static because balance adjustments are (a) rare and (b) not going to matter until they address imperial guard and smite spam, because those things are head and shoulders above the competition as has been proven by ITC data, and anecdotally if you ever play a tournament anywhere ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
If every army you care about is only those you might see at the top table, you're limiting 'every army' to 3-ish out of over a dozen. I'd argue that what you need there isn't 'Balanced', it's 'OP'.

Reread what you just said, are you literally arguing that you shouldn't prepare knowing what you will face?

This is 8th edition. If you build a list it NEEDS to be able to handle:

Astra Militarum / Guard
Chaos

Before you even consider anything else. These are the top two factions - in that order - and you will face them guaranteed no matter the event, unless you find yourself in the gakker.

I stand by my previous statement that Ork Boyz are balanced, and other cheap chaff are severely undercosted. Conscripts should be equal in cost to Boyz and Guardsmen should be more expensive. Orks are the canonical cheap bodies unit and they should do it better than ANYONE else. Including GSC, which they DO NOT.

again..why should Conscripts, which are markedly inferior to Ork Boyz in almost every way, cost as much as Ork Boyz?

Conscripts are far superior to Ork Boyz because they create an impassable shield making your "far better than anything in the Ork codex shooting units" amazingly invincible to assault, and close range shooting. Context matters, can we agree on this?

To clarify, not what you'll see at a premeir GT. Different people play in different metas. Most of those aren't at GT levels.

I'd wager that, in the average meta, Tac Marines are more common than Conscripts (on a per-game basis, not per-model).

This thread is specifically not about prepping for GTs.

(I do think I agree that Ork Boyz are balanced, in average lists.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag,
That's only true for players aiming to be the very best and win the maximum possible games. At any cost.

I'm not going to switch to a faction just because CWE isn't top dog (for another week at least ).

I've been enjoying the game trying two win while still using DAs as troops since the index. Clearly not the most advantageous advantage, even within my CWE collection. But I've enjoyed it.

I can see the point of units in different armies having different costs even if one is better than the other. I wouldn't expect a Tau meele unit to be as point-efficient as a Khorne Berzerker or a Ork meele unit.

The sad part of this is that with the mixing we have in 8th, is very difficult to balance that.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're talking about balance vs ALL units, not just what you'll actually see. I still think terminators are a hard fail from model count, but if you throw in all the terrible options from every codex, they look better.

LOL that's hilarious.

Any strategy game boils down to what units fit the meta and what units are effective. 40k's meta is incredibly static because balance adjustments are (a) rare and (b) not going to matter until they address imperial guard and smite spam, because those things are head and shoulders above the competition as has been proven by ITC data, and anecdotally if you ever play a tournament anywhere ever.

Not really. Theres a reason why GOOD game developers try to balance BOTH to the high-end competitive crown and the casual-quickmatch group of people that are in fact the mayority of the player base.
The balanced units are the ones in the middle, they should try to approach the extremes as near as possible to the middle, not make everything competitive with the idea that they should be as efficient as Conscripts or they are useless.

 Marmatag wrote:

Conscripts are far superior to Ork Boyz because they create an impassable shield making your "far better than anything in the Ork codex shooting units" amazingly invincible to assault, and close range shooting. Context matters, can we agree on this?

Right, context matters. The issues with conscripts arent with conscripts, it's with the support options available to Conscripts (without which Conscripts are easily brushed aside), and even then, the sum total value of conscripts on the table is essentially as a wall, nothing more.

You make Conscripts 6ppm, and youll never see them on the table again, you might as well remove them from the codex, the effect would be identical. More to the point, if Conscripts are 6ppm, Guardsmen must be at least 7ppm, and then we're at the same issues Guardians have, and nobody wants Guardians.

Bharring wrote:
I'd wager that, in the average meta, Tac Marines are more common than Conscripts (on a per-game basis, not per-model).

I don't know, maybe there's a clownshoes meta out there where people are unable to do basic math, or too poor to afford new miniatures with the edition change, so you don't see powerful stuff on the table.

I live about 30 minutes from the BAO, and other major events. It's hyper competitive out here. I have played against some of the top lists/players at the BAO.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Conscripts are far superior to Ork Boyz because they create an impassable shield making your "far better than anything in the Ork codex shooting units" amazingly invincible to assault, and close range shooting. Context matters, can we agree on this?

Right, context matters. The issues with conscripts arent with conscripts, it's with the support options available to Conscripts (without which Conscripts are easily brushed aside), and even then, the sum total value of conscripts on the table is essentially as a wall, nothing more.

You make Conscripts 6ppm, and youll never see them on the table again, you might as well remove them from the codex, the effect would be identical. More to the point, if Conscripts are 6ppm, Guardsmen must be at least 7ppm, and then we're at the same issues Guardians have, and nobody wants Guardians.

I'm not going to debate conscripts with you. It's been done to death. Enjoy being 8th ed Eldar.

"I don't know, maybe there's a clownshoes meta out there where people are unable to do basic math, or too poor to afford new miniatures with the edition change"

I rarely see this level of elitism in a community that solely gathers to play with plastic army men. You must be a treat to play with.

Balance of any unit must take into account the entire range. Balance is entirely subject to the game's overall design. If the rules staff knew this we wouldn't have army teirs, but each one would have a different, but effective toolkit. The "Meta" is a symptom of the game's imbalance NOT the standard by which everything should be measured.

I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

I mean what are you supposed to say when someone says, "i'll wager you'll see more TAC marines than conscripts?" That's like saying, "in 7th edition you're more not going to see scatter lasers."

I understand at the core what you're saying - balance should be viewed holistically. But the problem we have now is that it wasn't when certain units were created. So we have a moving goalpost around what the acceptable standard of quality is. At the end of the day we can go by tournament results, because that's the most formal way to look at aggregate warhammer data. So while it doesn't fit the casual meta, that's not a super big deal anyway, since the game is largely balanced if you're taking the beer and pretzels approach.

 Marmatag wrote:


I'm not going to debate conscripts with you. It's been done to death. Enjoy being 8th ed Eldar.

Mk, well an evasion and a thinly veiled emotional swipe. I'm going to take that as you dont really have an argument to make, you're just angry.

For the record, I have never run conscripts in any edition and probably wont this edition, they just arent a unit I like thematically. Same way I never picked up any Jetbiked or Wraithknights for my Eldar during 7th, theyre not my thing. But if youre going to make an assertion on a discussion board that a unit should be doubled in cost to match a far superior unit, dont be surprised when people question that assertion.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

:(

I'm moving back to narrative and casual play. Aeticus wrote a brilliant ruleset for casual play. That's probably the only way i'll play 40k moving forward.

I'm nice in person, I promise...

I mean 40k tournaments bring out the worst in people. I have seen people fudge dice rolls, subtly cheat about their buffs and traits, use different profiles for the same unit during the game without skipping a beat... It is just a toxic community, do whatever it takes to win crowd. To make 40k a competitive game that's *fun* you really need a damn judge for every table. The WAAC crowd really does suck.

To be honest, "casual and narrative play" is the only type of play where Warhammer40k offers a fun and enjoyable experience, at least for me. And yes, everything Auticus wrote is gold.

For competitive experiences I play other type of games. Like Videogames or fencing.

It's just so much more fun to write fluffy lists and play narrative games. The open war deck is especially brilliant. There is something to be said for comp and as long as you're willing to pregame a couple hundred pages in excel to determine viability of different point choices it's something that can be won... but I don't like how cynical it turns otherwise friendly players.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest, "casual and narrative play" is the only type of play where Warhammer40k offers a fun and enjoyable experience, at least for me.

For competitive experiences I play other type of games. Like Videogames or fencing.

Yep. The second your ITC ranking is involved people turn into monsters. It just gets so tiresome stopping people every 5 seconds, "no you moved him 7," or "no, you nova charged that profile, not this one," or "no, you rolled a 2, not a 6," or "no, that BS is 4+, not 3+" or "no, your save is not x+," or "yes, I did cast that power successfully last round,"... the list goes on.


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 MattKing wrote:
It's just so much more fun to write fluffy lists and play narrative games. The open war deck is especially brilliant. There is something to be said for comp and as long as you're willing to pregame a couple hundred pages in excel to determine viability of different point choices it's something that can be won... but I don't like how cynical it turns otherwise friendly players.

I highlighted the open war comment. Enough cannot be said for how good the Open War cards are as a product.

Random battle zone + open war's twist, deployment, and victory condition = really interesting fights.

Played a game where it was acid rain nightfight, kill the courier, with the wonkiest deployment zones ever. Was actually super fun.

Conscripts are great for their points, but model-for-model they are vastly inferior to boyz. At 6 points-per-model conscripts would be totally useless.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest, "casual and narrative play" is the only type of play where Warhammer40k offers a fun and enjoyable experience, at least for me. And yes, everything Auticus wrote is gold.

For competitive experiences I play other type of games. Like Videogames or fencing.

sadly 40k is, and always has been, a terrible tournament/competitive game.

That said, I've also seen some rather heinous behavior in fencing (especially with people showing up to play Sabre as if it were single stick), and nobody ever likes judges calls

Oh yes, every human experience that you play in a "competitive" way, will be full of toxicity.

Thats why having the rules being clear and having a third-party overseeing the game helps. In the case of videogames, you can't cheat the game (Only with hacks) and the "Ignore" feature is something I wish existed in real life

pismakron wrote:
Conscripts are great for their points, but model-for-model they are vastly inferior to boyz. At 6 points-per-model conscripts would be totally useless.

Well, you have to consider how they fit into the rest of the army. Is it worth paying 180 points to protect your very powerful tanks from being assaulted?

I think this topic goes back and forth and really there's no resolution. In practice, they're incredibly powerful by virtue of that fact: They protect powerful units incredibly well.

If Orks had access to incredibly powerful, bs4+ or better with rerolls shooting, with ranges of 72", then Boyz would be very strong, because they'd act like conscripts, but choppier.

I guess at the end of the day my personal view is that Orks should be the best at fielding a large amount of bodies and getting some results out of it. It's a bummer that all the Ork players I know basically tossed their miniatures because they get wrecked every game. Now they spam smites or play guard.

Orkz should be best at dropping huge mobs of hooligans who ramble up the board and bash your skull in.

Nidz should be best at dropping huge numbers of easily killed guys who race up the board and tie you up.

AM should be best at dropping huge numbers of cardboard-armored flashlight-carying nobodies who try for dear life to hold the line long enough for their artillery to do it's damage.

Seems AM might be a little OP right now, but those are different horde playstyles.

Martel732 wrote:
And the harpy gun doing 2 damage is excessive, imo.

Something that costs 178 points having a 2 damage gun is excessive?

Given its other capabilities? Yes.

What other capabilities are you referring to?

It's very fast, can fairly ineffectually fight in combat (better than most vehicles, worse than most monsters), and has a couple of minor abilities.
The spore mine bombs it can drop don't do much, averaging 1.25 mortal wounds on a unit, assuming that unit contains at least 3 models.
The sonic screech ability might be situationally decent I guess, such as preventing a counter-offensive stratagem from being used in a scenario where another unit was also charged.

I'm trying to see this from your angle, but I really don't see the harpy as being particularly impressive. Certainly not bad, but far from overpowered. Can you enlighten me?

It's been involved in several tablings of my lists, but i recently realized ive been doing everrything wrong basically. Maybe im wrong, but given how fast and the mortal wounds its super cheap. Or maybe my stuff is all too expensive.

Martel732 wrote:
It's been involved in several tablings of my lists, but i recently realized ive been doing everrything wrong basically. Maybe im wrong, but given how fast and the mortal wounds its super cheap. Or maybe my stuff is all too expensive.

Here you go.

Marines - in a general sense - are too expensive for what they offer.

Marine list with Guilliman - Great
Marine list without Guilliman - Garbage

So how do we decode where the imbalance lies? Doing some quick math. Let's assume everything wounds and hits on 3s. In short, that you're using the appropriate weapon for the appropriate target. Wounding on 2s means you're probably overkilling something, and wounding on 5s means you're probably not shooting with the right gun. Let's say that by in large, it averages out to wounding on 3s and hitting on 3s per gun.

Therefore, rerolling hits and wounds averages out to a 78% increase in effectiveness.

Then, logically, if marines were 78% cheaper in terms of points, and Guilliman did not exist, every marine faction would be on par with what Ultramarines are doing.

Obviously there is some assumption and a reasonable degree of variance here, but the core idea remains the same. We can fairly safely conclude that Guilliman is a 70-80% increase in effectiveness in a take-all-comers scenario.

So, based on this, I would say, marines are in general roughly 30-50% overcosted. Rerolls complicate this, in that not every army has access to them to the same degree.

No one on here is going to agree with you, but I see what you are saying.

Martel732 wrote:
No one on here is going to agree with you, but I see what you are saying.

Yeah, I know.

It's quick and dirty analysis. But the core idea is that Guilliman lists are very good. Current marines without Guilliman are not. If we calculate the percentage increase in effectiveness we can tie that number to points, and from there, figure out exactly how overcosted marines are.

And the easy solution here would be to let Guilliman act as a force multipler in other ways than simply providing rerolls. Rerolls are a lazy mechanic. He could be doing much cooler tactical things.

The only strategem that would balance BA that I can think of is a stratagem that deep strikes within 2" and moves enemy units out of the way. They're not going to do that. Or make Baal preds 50 ppm, lol.

Martel732 wrote:
The only strategem that would balance BA that I can think of is a stratagem that deep strikes within 2" and moves enemy units out of the way. They're not going to do that. Or make Baal preds 50 ppm, lol.

In truth what would help marines is the return of sweeping advance. Suddenly a bog-standard assault squad can deep strike in and eliminate conscripts.

I would also say anyone who lives on deep strike - like grey knights - should be able to pay a command point during deployment to set a unit up in "not awful teleportation chamber" so they deep strike no less than 6" away instead of no less than 9". This could also be a BA stratagem.

Not good enough, because I'm still physically barred from my target by screens. The guns need to be silenced immediately, not 3 turns from now.

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

Wolves are crap. I even beat them with my terrible faction.

Space wolves are actually at the level good armies should be IMHO. Everything more powerful should be toned down.

I think they're improved a lot this edition, I've had better results with them than using orks or drukhari.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

Wolves are crap. I even beat them with my terrible faction.

Space wolves are actually at the level good armies should be IMHO. Everything more powerful should be toned down.

I think they're improved a lot this edition, I've had better results with them than using orks or drukhari.

I mean this in a nice way, so please don't think i'm trying to be rude here:

But how do you come to this conclusion?


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Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough, because I'm still physically barred from my target by screens. The guns need to be silenced immediately, not 3 turns from now.

Yeah, I get it. I mean with the way 8th is constructed we'll never have this. The best way to eliminate a large blob would be a sweeping advance. There's no way to get around spending a turn to silence them. Of course morale was supposed to be that, but they have too many mechanics to negate it.

It all comes back to points really. Conscripts, and the things they protect, are just too cheap points wise.

Also i feel FW units are too powerful and prefer to play without FW.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Also i feel FW units are too powerful and prefer to play without FW.

How is FW any less imbalanced than the main GW studio? Methinks people spend too much time focusing on the few exceptions while giving a pass to the main studio for similar issues. FW stuff certainly isn't (and never really has) dominated the top end competitive scene for as many issues as some people seem to have with FW.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Also i feel FW units are too powerful and prefer to play without FW.

How is FW any less imbalanced than the main GW studio? Methinks people spend too much time focusing on the few exceptions while giving a pass to the main studio for similar issues. FW stuff certainly isn't (and never really has) dominated the top end competitive scene for as many issues as some people seem to have with FW.

Yeah, but it's more expensive! And rare to see! So therefore it MUST be more OP, right?

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No one on here is going to agree with you, but I see what you are saying.

Yeah, I know.

It's quick and dirty analysis. But the core idea is that Guilliman lists are very good. Current marines without Guilliman are not. If we calculate the percentage increase in effectiveness we can tie that number to points, and from there, figure out exactly how overcosted marines are.

Every Codex: Marines can get a Chapter Master and a Lieutenant for less than half of what Guilliman costs, giving you ~75% of the buff that Guilliman does.

If Guilliman is OP, as you say, and not-buffed is trash, as you say, then you have the power to make it "just right".

By spending 3 CP and points on a normal captain, and a normal lieutenant, and I guess a dreadnought so you can attempt to imitate the threat deterrent Papa Smurf represents to opposing melee units thinking of assaulting his gunline. Then your Battalion has 3 CP instead of 9(?) CP but who cares, right? Command points are useless, right?

Anyway, on topic, I find Sternguard pretty balanced. They are a touch expensive, but the dakka they can have really represents the idea of a spearhead assault that space marines seem to be all about. The opponent can wipe them fairly easily if he wants to, but if he doesn’t, they can accomplish a reasonable amount of board clearing as well. I have fun with them, and haven’t had complaints, so they seem pretty balanced to me.

Bremon wrote:
By spending 3 CP and points on a normal captain, and a normal lieutenant, and I guess a dreadnought so you can attempt to imitate the threat deterrent Papa Smurf represents to opposing melee units thinking of assaulting his gunline. Then your Battalion has 3 CP instead of 9(?) CP but who cares, right? Command points are useless, right?

Would you like some cheese with that? "I want the buffs but I don't wan't to pay for them."

As Guilliman is a LOW, you still need two HQs for your Battalion. So the Capt. Lt. Combo gets you your buffs and your Battalion without more HQ's, saving you ~200 points for Guilliman, and whatever points you would have spent on HQs to fill requisite HQ slots. If you're thinking cheap HQs there, that's another 150ish points saved. So you save 350 points to use Guilliman-esque buffs for the codex chapter of your choosing. If you can't figure out a way to build around that, that's on you.

If you're really serious about Command Points, you can make a whole extra Battalion for that. Some un-targetable CC characters to defend against CC, and scouts to screen against deep striking assaulters, if you're worried. Or just three more Assault Cannon Razorbacks.

The ingredients are there, figure it out.

I don’t run Guilliman, I’m not saying I want the buffs and don’t want to pay for them; I don’t have a problem with the idea of playing Guilliman and paying 360 points for him. What I am saying is a slight breeze will blow your straw man argument away, so... thanks for the ingredients? My real point is your mediocre ingredients all add up to a dish that is, unsurprisingly, worse than Guilliman. Considerably worse. You’ve saved points!” and “need CP? Run another Battalion!” basically cancel each other out. I also disagree with your seemingly simple solution; pay troops tax by using 6 units of tac marines, or scouts, when most people on this board seem to hate the idea of using just 3. That’s ignoring the fact that another Battalion cancels out the 2 HQ slots worth of points that leaving Guilliman on a shelf is supposed to save. A player taking Roboute could also use 2 librarians as HQ for smite spam and DTW. Could even take a back up Captain with Sanctic Halo for a larger gunline and even more DTW. Let me know what I’m missing; I’m beyond curious to see what 360 points gets in a Marines list that is as efficient as, let alone more efficient than, the primarch. He has benefits over standard HQ in every phase, and gives you more CP.

I have to agree with Martel here, Ultramarines are peak efficiency where marines are concerned, and Blood Angels currently are trash. Thankfully, unlike him, I play in a casual meta and can finish a game without being tabled. I have fun playing the game, but the ingredients, frankly, are missing for a truly competitive codex list, which means most FLGS for codex divergent chapters mean “abandon all hope, ye who enter here”.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only strategem that would balance BA that I can think of is a stratagem that deep strikes within 2" and moves enemy units out of the way. They're not going to do that. Or make Baal preds 50 ppm, lol.

In truth what would help marines is the return of sweeping advance. Suddenly a bog-standard assault squad can deep strike in and eliminate conscripts.

I would also say anyone who lives on deep strike - like grey knights - should be able to pay a command point during deployment to set a unit up in "not awful teleportation chamber" so they deep strike no less than 6" away instead of no less than 9". This could also be a BA stratagem.

Such a strategem for BA would indeed improve them a lot.
They have access to Company Vets with jump packs and so Marine units of 5 with 4 melta guns.

Bremon wrote:
I don’t run Guilliman, I’m not saying I want the buffs and don’t want to pay for them; I don’t have a problem with the idea of playing Guilliman and paying 360 points for him. What I am saying is a slight breeze will blow your straw man argument away, so... thanks for the ingredients? My real point is your mediocre ingredients all add up to a dish that is, unsurprisingly, worse than Guilliman. Considerably worse. You’ve saved points!” and “need CP? Run another Battalion!” basically cancel each other out. I also disagree with your seemingly simple solution; pay troops tax by using 6 units of tac marines, or scouts, when most people on this board seem to hate the idea of using just 3. That’s ignoring the fact that another Battalion cancels out the 2 HQ slots worth of points that leaving Guilliman on a shelf is supposed to save. A player taking Roboute could also use 2 librarians as HQ for smite spam and DTW. Could even take a back up Captain with Sanctic Halo for a larger gunline and even more DTW. Let me know what I’m missing; I’m beyond curious to see what 360 points gets in a Marines list that is as efficient as, let alone more efficient than, the primarch. He has benefits over standard HQ in every phase, and gives you more CP.

I have to agree with Martel here, Ultramarines are peak efficiency where marines are concerned, and Blood Angels currently are trash. Thankfully, unlike him, I play in a casual meta and can finish a game without being tabled. I have fun playing the game, but the ingredients, frankly, are missing for a truly competitive codex list, which means most FLGS for codex divergent chapters mean “abandon all hope, ye who enter here”.

That's all well and good, but if the second place list in the GT was indeed Raven Guard as I've read, presumably it did pretty well as a Space Marine list not UM and not running Guilliman. Soo, there ya go.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

Wolves are crap. I even beat them with my terrible faction.

Space wolves are actually at the level good armies should be IMHO. Everything more powerful should be toned down.

I think they're improved a lot this edition, I've had better results with them than using orks or drukhari.

I mean this in a nice way, so please don't think i'm trying to be rude here:

But how do you come to this conclusion?

Because they don't have anything power creep, but still have access to the undercosted SM stuff and some decent dedicated units/characters. They have several units that can have success in casual semi-competitive games.

Tournaments lists are awful, there's no fun in playing with and against those kind of lists. If you ban soups, and price correctly (if not ban) a few overpowered named characters and a few overpowered units you can still play at competitive levels but in a way more balanced. And armies like SW are more than decent in those environments, way better than orks. Or drukhari, which has become a rock-paper-scissor army: excellent against armored lists, awful against hordes, average if mixing CC units, anti infantry and anti tanks tools.

If brimstones are overpowered they should be toned down, if razorwing flocks are too cheap they should get more expensive, if plasma scions can be spammed in high numbers they need to be adjusted in order to avoid that. All done. Things like these fixes help the game, I don't want my armies to have overpowered auto-take units/characters to counter other overpowered stuff. Overpowered stuff should be toned down and armies like SW, but I can say SM in general without guilliman, should be the perfect example of how a good army looks. Not overpowered but with some very effective units that shouldn't match together, not weak but with some weaknesses that can't be avoided, a good number of options available.

IMHO a good amount of SW units, characters and wargear are among those ones that can be considered "best balanced in 8th edition".