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Scions with the new cost for their weapons

I like meganobz. 2+ armor is effectively a 5+ invlun, which we haven't had in a long time (only an ork would celebrate having a 5++). They picked up another wound, good strength and attacks, don't always attack last, are buffable with warbossi, waaagh banners, teleporting, but are good on their own.

They're just a touch overpriced (more specifically, power klaws and kustom shootas are ludicrously overpriced), but are still a good value to me.

Ork Boyz IMHO. It's other units that are comparable that are just WAY undercosted. Ork Boyz should be the benchmark for cheap en masse bodies. Conscripts should cost the same as an Ork Boy.

I think sentinels from the IG codex are well balanced. Flexible, cheap enough to get a couple groups, and offer good board control through numbers/movement.

Even the difference between armored and scout are well done for the minor differences scouts being 5 points cheaper w/ 9 inch movement and a pre-game scout move. Compared the Armored w/ 8 inch, +1 armor and Toughness.

When I see them I don't know what my opponent will want to do with them and it makes me enjoy the game not knowing how the opponent will play his army.

Personally I'm really liking a lot of the CSM options, also a big fan of the IG tank commander in general (though Pask could use a price bump)

 Marmatag wrote:
Ork Boyz IMHO. It's other units that are comparable that are just WAY undercosted. Ork Boyz should be the benchmark for cheap en masse bodies. Conscripts should cost the same as an Ork Boy.

Why would a Conscript, with lower Weapon Skill, lower Strength, lower Toughness, fewer attacks, dramatically lower Leadership, less capable weapons (24" S3 Rapid Fire 1 Lasgun vs 18" S4 Assault 2 Shoota or S4 Pistol and an extra Attack with the Choppa), and only a slightly better save and an extra 1" of movement, cost the same as an Ork Boy? The Ork Boy is markedly superior (and should be).

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
(only an ork would celebrate having a 5++)

Hey man, the Inquisition is sitting there right along side you. I remember when we could take storm shields... or rosariuses... hell, even power armour!

For my 91st Cadians, I will say it has to be the Baneblade. Nothing comes close to drawing the enemy's attention than putting one of them on the table.

For my Black Legion, Chaos Terminators, take that role. Whether you want to teleport them into combat or give them their chosen ride of a Land Raider, they serve their purpose of drawing down the heat!

Or boys could be costed the same as conscripts because of the context in which they exist. In a vacuum, yes they should be worth more than conscripts. But one might consider what conscripts do for IG, and for the imperium at large given how open the allies system is to “Imperial soup”

Now, I’m not sure if bumping conscripts to the same cost as Boys would be the right move, but I wouldn’t dismiss the idea out of hand necessarily.

I don’t think I’ve played enough 8E to have a real opinion on what’s balanced, but I’m reasonably happy with the basic Battle Sister Squad, at 9ppm they’re decent. Not sure why they can’t do units of 20 anymore, that sucks because I thought that was fun, but whatever. The issue is it seems to be more effective to pay 10 ppm for Dominions and get a free vanguard move and access to all-you-care-to-field storm bolters (not that I think pure Sisters are OP, just that they’re in a better place now, but their dependence on Dominions hasn’t lessened).

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Well don't play ALL terminators. Playing ALL of anything should get you punished. You've got to be flexible.

He had 25. Plenty of other stuff in the list. But those 25 terminators did nothing but kill gaunts and die. He was not given a choice by the tyranid player. I stand by then being significany overcosted given how the game plays. Screening units ruin them.

An army of 25 terminators is really bad. 5-7 terminators, if played correctly, are a decent unit. I sometimes play wolf guard terminators, equipped with heavy melee stuff and deepstriking, usually with Arjac to buff them but not always. They're certainly not bad, a little bit overpriced maybe (I've magnetized the models but with the typical loadout I choose for them 5 dudes cost 267 points) but not that much considering wulfen and TWC prices. Also not every army has effective screening units.

Martel732 wrote:
Tacs are overcosted for the current meta for sure. Fire warriors are too cheap at 8 pts. If tacs were as good as people say, ba wouldn't need op stuff.

Was gonna say predators.

Typically, you're going to find that the most balanced units are those that have a clearly defined role, generally reliable, not reliant on GW correctly pricing complex special rules, and without a crapton of options that need to be correctly priced.

sadly, in the era of "this new Marine unit has rocket launcher shoulders, powerfists with inbuilt assault cannons, nipple flamers, lascannon shoes, and now, finally, rules for Space Marine acid spit in close combat!" you're unlikely to ever see a nicely balanced unit released.

... Until Asurmen does 15 unsaved wounds to the TH/SS termies in 1 round of CC.

That player hated me...

Termies in a combined arms setup seem more balanced/capable than Termies as the focus or as part of a pure melee list.

Sure, they can be shot off the table. But then, typically, the rest of your list - or most o it - should still be intact.

Nice theory. In practice, not so much. Plus, if a unit is truly balanced, taking 25 of them shouldn't be a deal breaker, right?

Martel732 wrote:
Nice theory. In practice, not so much. Plus, if a unit is truly balanced, taking 25 of them shouldn't be a deal breaker, right?

In theory yes. In practice no. A unit that has good survivability but can't do much damage is still balanced, but an entire army of them is useless since you can't deal damage. Conversely a unit can do a lot of damage and be easy to take out is still balanced, but would also be useless in a protracted firefight since they'd all die to a stiff breeze. Just like how a hammer is a well designed tool for pushing nails in, but if all you have are hammers in your toolbox, you're not gonna have a fun time trying to cut a piece of wood in half.

Martel732 wrote:
Nice theory. In practice, not so much. Plus, if a unit is truly balanced, taking 25 of them shouldn't be a deal breaker, right?

It depends. If the opponent has tons of anti tank or several ways to inflict mortal wounds then armored multiwounds units are not that great. But also against armies with tons of cheap bodies and maybe also very fast. Some units can be decent or even good if combined with something else but not very effective if they are the bulk of the army. If you field an army with mostly units of the same kind you may go into the rock-paper-scissors syndrome, in which you may be invincible against someone but extremely weak against someone else.

Truly balanced also should mean "average-good", not "auto-take", that would means overpowered or under priced, certainly not truly balanced.

I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Look at it this way.

Robout Gilliman (gave on on SP) is OP.

If you could take an army of him - as many of him that fit - would that army be OP?

People claim Conscripts are OP. Is an army with nothing but Conscripts stronger than an army with Conscripts backed by other things?

Balanced shouldn't require an army of just-it to actually do well.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

I know your BA hateboner is long and hard this edition (as usual) but this isn't really the case that I've seen.

Tactical terminators take dedicated weapons (e.g. overcharged plasma) to take out.

I actually think that Baneblades are vulnerable to more types of weapons than Tactical Terminators - not only is overcharged plasma effective against them, but so are the heavy AT guns that are inefficient against terminators (e.g. lascannons) and they are as vulnerable to lasguns as Terminators are.

"Tactical terminators take dedicated weapons (e.g. overcharged plasma) to take out. "

No, they don't. Any -1 AP will do. Lascannons are pretty efficient vs terminators lol.

This has nothing to do with BA. Any terminator in any chapter in any list seems better replaced by another unit. That doesn't sound like balance to me. BA get predators, which ARE balanced, but don't get bobby G to make them amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Look at it this way.

Robout Gilliman (gave on on SP) is OP.

If you could take an army of him - as many of him that fit - would that army be OP?

People claim Conscripts are OP. Is an army with nothing but Conscripts stronger than an army with Conscripts backed by other things?

Balanced shouldn't require an army of just-it to actually do well.

I get that, but terminators can't even accomplish what they're being claimed to be able to accomplish. They die MISERSABLY to overcharge plasma, but they die SUFFICIENTLY to any -1 AP, because that halves their suvivability.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

But those -1 AP weapons aren't shooting your ASMs/Devs/Tacs.

Bharring wrote:
But those -1 AP weapons aren't shooting your ASMs/Devs/Tacs.

I could have just had more units that aren't trash.

Rephrased:
But those -1 AP weapons aren't shooting your [not trash units].

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I never thought 2 W terminators would do a thing. And, look! it didn't. I never thought any of those things mattered. And they don't. Marines will never have enough bolter shots to matter, especially at AP 0 in 8th ed. Assaulting from deep strike is a fool's gambit on a 9+. Even then, you are guaranteed to hit a screening unit and accomplish nothing before getting shot to death. If they even bother to shoot them.

Like almost every marine unit that isn't holding a lascannon or assualt cannon, some way to get around screening units is critical. Terminators are basically turned off by gaunts, conscripts, and cultists 100% of the time. They can't chop through them in a reasonable amount of time, and they are beta struck over and over as the screening unit waltzes out of CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Rephrased:
But those -1 AP weapons aren't shooting your [not trash units].

I could just bring more lascannons and assault cannons instead.

 Blackie wrote:
Truly balanced also should mean "average-good", not "auto-take", that would means overpowered or under priced, certainly not truly balanced.

I agree with this statement. A truly balanced list should have me going "which one should I take?" at almost every stage of list building, ideally even when picking factions.

I've always seen termies as a sort of reverse-screen. Think Rook in chess. Those gaunts/conscripts/cultists won't do much to stop your other assets if they're busy fighting those termies.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I never thought 2 W terminators would do a thing. And, look! it didn't.

Like almost every marine unit that isn't holding a lascannon or assualt cannon, some way to get around screening units is critical. Terminators are basically turned off by gaunts, conscripts, and cultists 100% of the time. They can't chop through them in a reasonable amount of time, and they are beta struck over and over as the screening unit waltzes out of CC.

Man, if only there were armies other than Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. I hate this game with only 4 factions.

Bharring wrote:
I've always seen termies as a sort of reverse-screen. Think Rook in chess. Those gaunts/conscripts/cultists won't do much to stop your other assets if they're busy fighting those termies.

After you pay for the terminators, you don't HAVE other assets. These are marines here, not IG. Also, there's always more gaunts if you are playing marines, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I never thought 2 W terminators would do a thing. And, look! it didn't.

Like almost every marine unit that isn't holding a lascannon or assualt cannon, some way to get around screening units is critical. Terminators are basically turned off by gaunts, conscripts, and cultists 100% of the time. They can't chop through them in a reasonable amount of time, and they are beta struck over and over as the screening unit waltzes out of CC.

Man, if only there were armies other than Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. I hate this game with only 4 factions.

Every competent list has screening units at this point. Terminators are ironically most potent against other loyalists who aren't bringing in conscripts.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I've always seen termies as a sort of reverse-screen. Think Rook in chess. Those gaunts/conscripts/cultists won't do much to stop your other assets if they're busy fighting those termies.

After you pay for the terminators, you don't HAVE other assets. These are marines here, not IG.

Wow, my codex must have a printing error; to me, it looks like Terminators are an order of magnitude too cheap to take up an entire 2000 point army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Every competent list has screening units at this point. Terminators are ironically most potent against other loyalists who aren't bringing in conscripts.

Yeah you're right, especially that tournament winning list whose cheapest model was Tactical Squads.

I think Tactical Squads are an excellent screen.

They're a gak screen, but passable because of the rate at which the Bobby G party gets gak done.

This many posters REALLY think terminators are balanced? Okay, then. I REALLY want to play you guys.

Martel732 wrote:
They're a gak screen, but passable because of the rate at which the Bobby G party gets gak done.

This many posters REALLY think terminators are balanced? Okay, then. I REALLY want to play you guys.

Where do you live? I'd be happy to throw down.