Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Conscripts are great for their points, but model-for-model they are vastly inferior to boyz. At 6 points-per-model conscripts would be totally useless.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest, "casual and narrative play" is the only type of play where Warhammer40k offers a fun and enjoyable experience, at least for me. And yes, everything Auticus wrote is gold.

For competitive experiences I play other type of games. Like Videogames or fencing.

sadly 40k is, and always has been, a terrible tournament/competitive game.

That said, I've also seen some rather heinous behavior in fencing (especially with people showing up to play Sabre as if it were single stick), and nobody ever likes judges calls

Oh yes, every human experience that you play in a "competitive" way, will be full of toxicity.

Thats why having the rules being clear and having a third-party overseeing the game helps. In the case of videogames, you can't cheat the game (Only with hacks) and the "Ignore" feature is something I wish existed in real life

pismakron wrote:
Conscripts are great for their points, but model-for-model they are vastly inferior to boyz. At 6 points-per-model conscripts would be totally useless.

Well, you have to consider how they fit into the rest of the army. Is it worth paying 180 points to protect your very powerful tanks from being assaulted?

I think this topic goes back and forth and really there's no resolution. In practice, they're incredibly powerful by virtue of that fact: They protect powerful units incredibly well.

If Orks had access to incredibly powerful, bs4+ or better with rerolls shooting, with ranges of 72", then Boyz would be very strong, because they'd act like conscripts, but choppier.

I guess at the end of the day my personal view is that Orks should be the best at fielding a large amount of bodies and getting some results out of it. It's a bummer that all the Ork players I know basically tossed their miniatures because they get wrecked every game. Now they spam smites or play guard.

Orkz should be best at dropping huge mobs of hooligans who ramble up the board and bash your skull in.

Nidz should be best at dropping huge numbers of easily killed guys who race up the board and tie you up.

AM should be best at dropping huge numbers of cardboard-armored flashlight-carying nobodies who try for dear life to hold the line long enough for their artillery to do it's damage.

Seems AM might be a little OP right now, but those are different horde playstyles.

Martel732 wrote:
And the harpy gun doing 2 damage is excessive, imo.

Something that costs 178 points having a 2 damage gun is excessive?

Given its other capabilities? Yes.

What other capabilities are you referring to?

It's very fast, can fairly ineffectually fight in combat (better than most vehicles, worse than most monsters), and has a couple of minor abilities.
The spore mine bombs it can drop don't do much, averaging 1.25 mortal wounds on a unit, assuming that unit contains at least 3 models.
The sonic screech ability might be situationally decent I guess, such as preventing a counter-offensive stratagem from being used in a scenario where another unit was also charged.

I'm trying to see this from your angle, but I really don't see the harpy as being particularly impressive. Certainly not bad, but far from overpowered. Can you enlighten me?

It's been involved in several tablings of my lists, but i recently realized ive been doing everrything wrong basically. Maybe im wrong, but given how fast and the mortal wounds its super cheap. Or maybe my stuff is all too expensive.

Martel732 wrote:
It's been involved in several tablings of my lists, but i recently realized ive been doing everrything wrong basically. Maybe im wrong, but given how fast and the mortal wounds its super cheap. Or maybe my stuff is all too expensive.

Here you go.

Marines - in a general sense - are too expensive for what they offer.

Marine list with Guilliman - Great
Marine list without Guilliman - Garbage

So how do we decode where the imbalance lies? Doing some quick math. Let's assume everything wounds and hits on 3s. In short, that you're using the appropriate weapon for the appropriate target. Wounding on 2s means you're probably overkilling something, and wounding on 5s means you're probably not shooting with the right gun. Let's say that by in large, it averages out to wounding on 3s and hitting on 3s per gun.

Therefore, rerolling hits and wounds averages out to a 78% increase in effectiveness.

Then, logically, if marines were 78% cheaper in terms of points, and Guilliman did not exist, every marine faction would be on par with what Ultramarines are doing.

Obviously there is some assumption and a reasonable degree of variance here, but the core idea remains the same. We can fairly safely conclude that Guilliman is a 70-80% increase in effectiveness in a take-all-comers scenario.

So, based on this, I would say, marines are in general roughly 30-50% overcosted. Rerolls complicate this, in that not every army has access to them to the same degree.

No one on here is going to agree with you, but I see what you are saying.

Martel732 wrote:
No one on here is going to agree with you, but I see what you are saying.

Yeah, I know.

It's quick and dirty analysis. But the core idea is that Guilliman lists are very good. Current marines without Guilliman are not. If we calculate the percentage increase in effectiveness we can tie that number to points, and from there, figure out exactly how overcosted marines are.

And the easy solution here would be to let Guilliman act as a force multipler in other ways than simply providing rerolls. Rerolls are a lazy mechanic. He could be doing much cooler tactical things.

The only strategem that would balance BA that I can think of is a stratagem that deep strikes within 2" and moves enemy units out of the way. They're not going to do that. Or make Baal preds 50 ppm, lol.

Martel732 wrote:
The only strategem that would balance BA that I can think of is a stratagem that deep strikes within 2" and moves enemy units out of the way. They're not going to do that. Or make Baal preds 50 ppm, lol.

In truth what would help marines is the return of sweeping advance. Suddenly a bog-standard assault squad can deep strike in and eliminate conscripts.

I would also say anyone who lives on deep strike - like grey knights - should be able to pay a command point during deployment to set a unit up in "not awful teleportation chamber" so they deep strike no less than 6" away instead of no less than 9". This could also be a BA stratagem.

Not good enough, because I'm still physically barred from my target by screens. The guns need to be silenced immediately, not 3 turns from now.

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

Wolves are crap. I even beat them with my terrible faction.

Space wolves are actually at the level good armies should be IMHO. Everything more powerful should be toned down.

I think they're improved a lot this edition, I've had better results with them than using orks or drukhari.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

Wolves are crap. I even beat them with my terrible faction.

Space wolves are actually at the level good armies should be IMHO. Everything more powerful should be toned down.

I think they're improved a lot this edition, I've had better results with them than using orks or drukhari.

I mean this in a nice way, so please don't think i'm trying to be rude here:

But how do you come to this conclusion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough, because I'm still physically barred from my target by screens. The guns need to be silenced immediately, not 3 turns from now.

Yeah, I get it. I mean with the way 8th is constructed we'll never have this. The best way to eliminate a large blob would be a sweeping advance. There's no way to get around spending a turn to silence them. Of course morale was supposed to be that, but they have too many mechanics to negate it.

It all comes back to points really. Conscripts, and the things they protect, are just too cheap points wise.

Also i feel FW units are too powerful and prefer to play without FW.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Also i feel FW units are too powerful and prefer to play without FW.

How is FW any less imbalanced than the main GW studio? Methinks people spend too much time focusing on the few exceptions while giving a pass to the main studio for similar issues. FW stuff certainly isn't (and never really has) dominated the top end competitive scene for as many issues as some people seem to have with FW.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Also i feel FW units are too powerful and prefer to play without FW.

How is FW any less imbalanced than the main GW studio? Methinks people spend too much time focusing on the few exceptions while giving a pass to the main studio for similar issues. FW stuff certainly isn't (and never really has) dominated the top end competitive scene for as many issues as some people seem to have with FW.

Yeah, but it's more expensive! And rare to see! So therefore it MUST be more OP, right?

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No one on here is going to agree with you, but I see what you are saying.

Yeah, I know.

It's quick and dirty analysis. But the core idea is that Guilliman lists are very good. Current marines without Guilliman are not. If we calculate the percentage increase in effectiveness we can tie that number to points, and from there, figure out exactly how overcosted marines are.

Every Codex: Marines can get a Chapter Master and a Lieutenant for less than half of what Guilliman costs, giving you ~75% of the buff that Guilliman does.

If Guilliman is OP, as you say, and not-buffed is trash, as you say, then you have the power to make it "just right".

By spending 3 CP and points on a normal captain, and a normal lieutenant, and I guess a dreadnought so you can attempt to imitate the threat deterrent Papa Smurf represents to opposing melee units thinking of assaulting his gunline. Then your Battalion has 3 CP instead of 9(?) CP but who cares, right? Command points are useless, right?

Anyway, on topic, I find Sternguard pretty balanced. They are a touch expensive, but the dakka they can have really represents the idea of a spearhead assault that space marines seem to be all about. The opponent can wipe them fairly easily if he wants to, but if he doesn’t, they can accomplish a reasonable amount of board clearing as well. I have fun with them, and haven’t had complaints, so they seem pretty balanced to me.

Bremon wrote:
By spending 3 CP and points on a normal captain, and a normal lieutenant, and I guess a dreadnought so you can attempt to imitate the threat deterrent Papa Smurf represents to opposing melee units thinking of assaulting his gunline. Then your Battalion has 3 CP instead of 9(?) CP but who cares, right? Command points are useless, right?

Would you like some cheese with that? "I want the buffs but I don't wan't to pay for them."

As Guilliman is a LOW, you still need two HQs for your Battalion. So the Capt. Lt. Combo gets you your buffs and your Battalion without more HQ's, saving you ~200 points for Guilliman, and whatever points you would have spent on HQs to fill requisite HQ slots. If you're thinking cheap HQs there, that's another 150ish points saved. So you save 350 points to use Guilliman-esque buffs for the codex chapter of your choosing. If you can't figure out a way to build around that, that's on you.

If you're really serious about Command Points, you can make a whole extra Battalion for that. Some un-targetable CC characters to defend against CC, and scouts to screen against deep striking assaulters, if you're worried. Or just three more Assault Cannon Razorbacks.

The ingredients are there, figure it out.

I don’t run Guilliman, I’m not saying I want the buffs and don’t want to pay for them; I don’t have a problem with the idea of playing Guilliman and paying 360 points for him. What I am saying is a slight breeze will blow your straw man argument away, so... thanks for the ingredients? My real point is your mediocre ingredients all add up to a dish that is, unsurprisingly, worse than Guilliman. Considerably worse. You’ve saved points!” and “need CP? Run another Battalion!” basically cancel each other out. I also disagree with your seemingly simple solution; pay troops tax by using 6 units of tac marines, or scouts, when most people on this board seem to hate the idea of using just 3. That’s ignoring the fact that another Battalion cancels out the 2 HQ slots worth of points that leaving Guilliman on a shelf is supposed to save. A player taking Roboute could also use 2 librarians as HQ for smite spam and DTW. Could even take a back up Captain with Sanctic Halo for a larger gunline and even more DTW. Let me know what I’m missing; I’m beyond curious to see what 360 points gets in a Marines list that is as efficient as, let alone more efficient than, the primarch. He has benefits over standard HQ in every phase, and gives you more CP.

I have to agree with Martel here, Ultramarines are peak efficiency where marines are concerned, and Blood Angels currently are trash. Thankfully, unlike him, I play in a casual meta and can finish a game without being tabled. I have fun playing the game, but the ingredients, frankly, are missing for a truly competitive codex list, which means most FLGS for codex divergent chapters mean “abandon all hope, ye who enter here”.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only strategem that would balance BA that I can think of is a stratagem that deep strikes within 2" and moves enemy units out of the way. They're not going to do that. Or make Baal preds 50 ppm, lol.

In truth what would help marines is the return of sweeping advance. Suddenly a bog-standard assault squad can deep strike in and eliminate conscripts.

I would also say anyone who lives on deep strike - like grey knights - should be able to pay a command point during deployment to set a unit up in "not awful teleportation chamber" so they deep strike no less than 6" away instead of no less than 9". This could also be a BA stratagem.

Such a strategem for BA would indeed improve them a lot.
They have access to Company Vets with jump packs and so Marine units of 5 with 4 melta guns.

Bremon wrote:
I don’t run Guilliman, I’m not saying I want the buffs and don’t want to pay for them; I don’t have a problem with the idea of playing Guilliman and paying 360 points for him. What I am saying is a slight breeze will blow your straw man argument away, so... thanks for the ingredients? My real point is your mediocre ingredients all add up to a dish that is, unsurprisingly, worse than Guilliman. Considerably worse. You’ve saved points!” and “need CP? Run another Battalion!” basically cancel each other out. I also disagree with your seemingly simple solution; pay troops tax by using 6 units of tac marines, or scouts, when most people on this board seem to hate the idea of using just 3. That’s ignoring the fact that another Battalion cancels out the 2 HQ slots worth of points that leaving Guilliman on a shelf is supposed to save. A player taking Roboute could also use 2 librarians as HQ for smite spam and DTW. Could even take a back up Captain with Sanctic Halo for a larger gunline and even more DTW. Let me know what I’m missing; I’m beyond curious to see what 360 points gets in a Marines list that is as efficient as, let alone more efficient than, the primarch. He has benefits over standard HQ in every phase, and gives you more CP.

I have to agree with Martel here, Ultramarines are peak efficiency where marines are concerned, and Blood Angels currently are trash. Thankfully, unlike him, I play in a casual meta and can finish a game without being tabled. I have fun playing the game, but the ingredients, frankly, are missing for a truly competitive codex list, which means most FLGS for codex divergent chapters mean “abandon all hope, ye who enter here”.

That's all well and good, but if the second place list in the GT was indeed Raven Guard as I've read, presumably it did pretty well as a Space Marine list not UM and not running Guilliman. Soo, there ya go.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

Wolves are crap. I even beat them with my terrible faction.

Space wolves are actually at the level good armies should be IMHO. Everything more powerful should be toned down.

I think they're improved a lot this edition, I've had better results with them than using orks or drukhari.

I mean this in a nice way, so please don't think i'm trying to be rude here:

But how do you come to this conclusion?

Because they don't have anything power creep, but still have access to the undercosted SM stuff and some decent dedicated units/characters. They have several units that can have success in casual semi-competitive games.

Tournaments lists are awful, there's no fun in playing with and against those kind of lists. If you ban soups, and price correctly (if not ban) a few overpowered named characters and a few overpowered units you can still play at competitive levels but in a way more balanced. And armies like SW are more than decent in those environments, way better than orks. Or drukhari, which has become a rock-paper-scissor army: excellent against armored lists, awful against hordes, average if mixing CC units, anti infantry and anti tanks tools.

If brimstones are overpowered they should be toned down, if razorwing flocks are too cheap they should get more expensive, if plasma scions can be spammed in high numbers they need to be adjusted in order to avoid that. All done. Things like these fixes help the game, I don't want my armies to have overpowered auto-take units/characters to counter other overpowered stuff. Overpowered stuff should be toned down and armies like SW, but I can say SM in general without guilliman, should be the perfect example of how a good army looks. Not overpowered but with some very effective units that shouldn't match together, not weak but with some weaknesses that can't be avoided, a good number of options available.

IMHO a good amount of SW units, characters and wargear are among those ones that can be considered "best balanced in 8th edition".