Reading a lot of people talking about the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagems, reminded me I wanted to ask a question about "Drop Pod Assault" and deep striking in general.

Per my reading of "Drop Pod Assault"; it appears to me that when arriving from reinforcements, the Drop Pod is doing the deepstriking, not the units inside - they're just disembarking after arrival [the fact it happens at the same time is a bonus].

Based on this, does that mean units disembarking from a drop pod are unable to be shot at using the stratagems that allow you to shoot deepstriking units?

Drop Pod Assault
"During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in
orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases this model can perform
a drop pod assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" away from any
enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."

Auspex Scan
"Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements
within 12" of one of your ADEPTUS ASTARTES Infantry
units. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit
as if it were the Shooting phase, but you must subtract 1
from all the resulting hit rolls."

We've had this discussion multiple times.

The rules simply don't give enough information. It's just as valid to argue that the drop pod is the only one arriving and the models inside are disembarking, as it is to argue that both units began the turn off the board and arrived on the board that turn, thus count as reinforcements.

It needs errata, but GW won't give us that because it would mean admitting they are bad writers. We'll get a special snowflake FAQ ruling if we get anything at all.

Discuss it pre-game is all I can say.

Damn, my bad - that'll teach me to search before I ask a question.

And alright; I'll discuss it with my opponent before hand.

Someone in another thread commented that in previous editions the units disembarking were also able to be shot as though they had arrived from Deep Strike - if the "Mobile Fortress"/Battlewagon ruling has taught me anything, it's to play things in the way that least favors you, until a ruling comes out and settles it for good.

Things have changed up between edition. In previous editions you could use witchfire powers from inside a vehicle where you don't now, for example. Last edition you could have Tyranids and Tau, or Necrons and Night Lords in the same army in different detachments, where you can't now. We can't assume that things are staying the same between editions, especially when they've made it obvious that things have changed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
We've had this discussion multiple times.

The rules simply don't give enough information. It's just as valid to argue that the drop pod is the only one arriving and the models inside are disembarking, as it is to argue that both units began the turn off the board and arrived on the board that turn, thus count as reinforcements.

We all need to forget we ever heard the term 'deep strike'. This is about arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

The unit in the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. I can't see any argument otherwise. The unit is put in reinforcements at the start of the game via the Drop Pod Assault rule. It arrives on the battlefield via the same rule. It is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement, therefore the stratagem allows for shooting at it. The fact that they are disembarking from the Drop Pod is basically irrelevant to this.

 John Prins wrote:
The unit in the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. I can't see any argument otherwise.

I literally gave the argument in the post you quoted. "It's just as valid to argue that the drop pod is the only one arriving and the models inside are disembarking, as it is to argue that both units began the turn off the board and arrived on the board that turn, thus count as reinforcements."

To say that the models that disembark from the Drop Pod are "arriving from reserves" makes as much sense as saying disembarking from a Land Raider is "arriving from reserves", so goes the logic (one which I agree with personally but the RaW is clear as pig slurry).

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine, but you cannot in good conscience suggest that the matter is clear cut.

 John Prins wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
We've had this discussion multiple times.

The rules simply don't give enough information. It's just as valid to argue that the drop pod is the only one arriving and the models inside are disembarking, as it is to argue that both units began the turn off the board and arrived on the board that turn, thus count as reinforcements.

We all need to forget we ever heard the term 'deep strike'. This is about arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

The unit in the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. I can't see any argument otherwise. The unit is put in reinforcements at the start of the game via the Drop Pod Assault rule. It arrives on the battlefield via the same rule. It is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement, therefore the stratagem allows for shooting at it. The fact that they are disembarking from the Drop Pod is basically irrelevant to this.

The transport (drop pod) is arriving as a deep strike - not the units inside.

If you deep strike a Wave Serpent (Altioc stratagem), and the units disembark at a later time - are they still considered "reinforcements"? [This matters, because if the squad inside still counts as "reinforcements", you can use the stratagems to shoot them; no matter what turn they disembark.] The transport is, yes; but the units inside, objectively, no. The fact that a drop pod allows you to do both, one after another, is irrelevant.

Personally, I'd love to argue this until the end of time - but BaconCatBug gave us the right answer; there's not enough information to determine ATM. Until an FAQ comes out, just talk about it with your opponent.

The Wave Serpent example is a killer and one of the main reasons I personally think the rules lean towards the passengers NOT counting as reinforcements.

I wonder if after a year of GW not providing answers, the main tournament circuits should team together and release a comprehensive community FAQ (we even have a big list of questions at the top of the forum! )

fe40k wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

We all need to forget we ever heard the term 'deep strike'. This is about arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

The transport (drop pod) is arriving as a deep strike - not the units inside.

Yeah, see here is the problem, everyone is tripping over 'deep strike'. I agree, the unit inside did not deep strike. But they did arrive on the battlefield as a reinforcement. THAT is what allows the stratagem to shoot at them.

The crux here seems to be that people think the stratagem MUST be used when the drop pod lands before the people inside it get out. I don't think it does. It's not a normal disembark happening in normal sequence, it's a special rule. Drop pod arrives, unit deploys, opponent can use stratagem on either the pod or the unit because they both arrived on the battlefield via the same special rule.

 John Prins wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

We all need to forget we ever heard the term 'deep strike'. This is about arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

The transport (drop pod) is arriving as a deep strike - not the units inside.

Yeah, see here is the problem, everyone is tripping over 'deep strike'. I agree, the unit inside did not deep strike. But they did arrive on the battlefield as a reinforcement. THAT is what allows the stratagem to shoot at them.

The crux here seems to be that people think the stratagem MUST be used when the drop pod lands before the people inside it get out. I don't think it does. It's not a normal disembark happening in normal sequence, it's a special rule. Drop pod arrives, unit deploys, opponent can use stratagem on either the pod or the unit because they both arrived on the battlefield via the same special rule.

They arrive on the battlefield via disembarking from the drop pod. The question is whether that counts as a reinforcement. As pointed out, you get the other questions of with a Wave Serpent, if they don't disembark for a turn or two after the Wave Serpent deep strikes, do they still count as reinforcements. For that matter, does that make any unit that starts the game embarked in a vehicle reinforcements when they disembark. I don't think anyone wants to claim the last happens. The problem is, all we are given for the troops inside the drop pod is that they arrive by disembarking. You're right, it's not a normal disembark because it's forced, but they still get to move after disembarking (unlike refinforcements arriving, who don't move or advance further when they arrive). But, it's still disembarking, so technically they are not arriving on the battlefield via the same special rule - the transport arrives via the special rule, and the models arrive via a disembark forced on them. The disembark rule is different from the reinforcements rule, and drop pod doesn't state that these count as reinforcements.

Things disembarking from a Transport are not reinforcements. As such they don't magically die at the end of turn 3 as BCB likes to claim.

We have here a rules gap when things disembark from something that did arrive from Tactical Reserves/reinforcements. It seems fair to be able to shoot them via a Stratagem such as the one being discussed, but the literal wording doesn't expressly allow it.

As others have said, until FAQ'd talk about it with your opponent before the game and agree a way forward.

I don't know what is the best line of thinking on this.

I do know that most of these things arrive at the end of the movement phase as reinforcements.

Disembarking I believe must happen either at the beginning of the movement phase or is it worded that it happens prior to the transport moving.

Either way the disembark from drop pod is a significant change from how disembark in general works. The timing of it breaks the normal rules.

In my opinion the "immediately" part of the stratagem means you use it before the people embarked disembark.

"During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in
orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield.[...]"

The rule doesn't say the contents are Reinforcements, but that isn't noteworthy: it doesn't say the Pod is Reinforcements.

You'd need to check the Reinforcements rules, because that specifies what counts as Reinforcments. I don't recall them verbatim right now.

If it specifies that units that follow rules that set them up on the battlefield later are reinforcements, then that would probably count both. But the specific wording is important.

The point that the rule is on the Pod and not the Tac Squad is silly, unless WWP Fire Dragons and Cloudstrike Serpents aren't considered Reinforcements.

Bharring wrote:
"During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in
orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield.[...]"

The rule doesn't say the contents are Reinforcements, but that isn't noteworthy: it doesn't say the Pod is Reinforcements.

You'd need to check the Reinforcements rules, because that specifies what counts as Reinforcments. I don't recall them verbatim right now.

If it specifies that units that follow rules that set them up on the battlefield later are reinforcements, then that would probably count both. But the specific wording is important.

The point that the rule is on the Pod and not the Tac Squad is silly, unless WWP Fire Dragons and Cloudstrike Serpents aren't considered Reinforcements.

"I didn't look up the rules but this is how I think it is."

Maybe you should look up the rules first?

The rule doesn't say the contents are Reinforcements because the rules for Reinforcements detail what reinforcements are. This is like saying the codex doesn't define what Strength means therefore Strength doesn't work (even though the rules cover what it does).

Luckily the battle primer is free.

REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

Note that this doesn't include disembarking from a transport. Furthermore the Drop Pod Assault rule gives you special permission to disembark when the Drop Pod arrives since you normally would not be able to do so.

The crux of the matter is that if the unit exiting the Drop Pod counts as reinforcements, then ALL units that arrive in a Wave Serpent count as reinforcements and can be shot at when they disembark, even if it's 3 turns later.

The longer I think about this, the less I believe there is a rules conflict. The crux in my opinion revolves around "must vs may". The strategem "may" be used "immediately after.." - disembarking from the pod "must" be done at the same time. As always; you need to do what the rules tell you to do.

Timing IMHO:

1) Pod arrives from reinforcements
2) Immediately after arrival is now.
2.1) The rules state that the marines "must" disembark "immediately"
3) Marines disembark
4) The stratagem can no longer be used for step 1) as something else has happened since then

Now the question is if step 3 is a new instance of "arrived from reinforcements". The reinforcement rules give clear guidance on that one, I think: "Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn".
The ability to be set-up on the battlefield is linked to the drop pod, not the embarked unit. Yes, the marines were set up "along with the drop pod", but the ability is clear pinned to the pod.
Also, the stratagem can be used to shoot at "that unit" (that arrived from reinforcements). The marines disembarked from a transport, the drop pod even references that rule.

For me the answer is becoming clear: The stratagem cannot be used at all against drop pod drops, due to the required trigger timing being impossible to fulfill.

Johnbox24 wrote:
The longer I think about this, the less I believe there is a rules conflict. The crux in my opinion revolves around "must vs may". The strategem "may" be used "immediately after.." - disembarking from the pod "must" be done at the same time. As always; you need to do what the rules tell you to do.

Timing IMHO:

1) Pod arrives from reinforcements
2) Immediately after arrival is now.
2.1) The rules state that the marines "must" disembark "immediately"
3) Marines disembark
4) The stratagem can no longer be used for step 1) as something else has happened since then

Now the question is if step 3 is a new instance of "arrived from reinforcements". The reinforcement rules give clear guidance on that one, I think: "Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn".
The ability to be set-up on the battlefield is linked to the drop pod, not the embarked unit. Yes, the marines were set up "along with the drop pod", but the ability is clear pinned to the pod.
Also, the stratagem can be used to shoot at "that unit" (that arrived from reinforcements). The marines disembarked from a transport, the drop pod even references that rule.

For me the answer is becoming clear: The stratagem cannot be used at all against drop pod drops, due to the required trigger timing being impossible to fulfill.

Your on to something here but I think this gives us options.

Basically you "may" use the strat on the drop pod right away, or you can wait and then use it on the unit instead but then not the pod.

I think that's hair-splitting and grammar bending that still doesn't answer the OP's question, personally.

Johnbox24 wrote:
The longer I think about this, the less I believe there is a rules conflict. The crux in my opinion revolves around "must vs may". The strategem "may" be used "immediately after.." - disembarking from the pod "must" be done at the same time. As always; you need to do what the rules tell you to do.

Timing IMHO:

1) Pod arrives from reinforcements
2) Immediately after arrival is now.
2.1) The rules state that the marines "must" disembark "immediately"
3) Marines disembark
4) The stratagem can no longer be used for step 1) as something else has happened since then

Now the question is if step 3 is a new instance of "arrived from reinforcements". The reinforcement rules give clear guidance on that one, I think: "Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn".
The ability to be set-up on the battlefield is linked to the drop pod, not the embarked unit. Yes, the marines were set up "along with the drop pod", but the ability is clear pinned to the pod.
Also, the stratagem can be used to shoot at "that unit" (that arrived from reinforcements). The marines disembarked from a transport, the drop pod even references that rule.

For me the answer is becoming clear: The stratagem cannot be used at all against drop pod drops, due to the required trigger timing being impossible to fulfill.

I believe that steps 1-4 as said above would be how this plays out.

Auspex Scan wrote: Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within 12" ...

The drop pod is the unit that is being placed onto the table in this example. It's "payload" does not come into play.

You're still setting up the squad as part of the 'Drop Pod Assualt' rule, even though they are disembarking. You're still processing that rule.

That rule is an "ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means".

You have just "set up" a squad (Tac squad) that was "set up on the battlefield mid-turn" by "ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means" (Drop Pod Assault).

The technicality that the rule is invoking disembarking rules is true, but it is doing so while using the Drop Pod Assault rule. So both are true.

There is an argument (which would apply to WWP Fire Dragons too) that the Tac squad doesn't have the rule. Clearly a RAW argument, and seems like bad faith, but technically potentially correct. But they are reinforcements that just arrived.

 Eihnlazer wrote:



Your on to something here but I think this gives us options.

Basically you "may" use the strat on the drop pod right away, or you can wait and then use it on the unit instead but then not the pod.

You "may" use any stratagem as long as you can fulfill the conditions of it's use. There is no language in those stratagems that say you can wait until a drop pod has it's units disembark to use it.. If you find that I would love to see it.

Bharring wrote:
You're still setting up the squad as part of the 'Drop Pod Assualt' rule, even though they are disembarking. You're still processing that rule.

That rule is an "ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means".

You have just "set up" a squad (Tac squad) that was "set up on the battlefield mid-turn" by "ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means" (Drop Pod Assault).

The technicality that the rule is invoking disembarking rules is true, but it is doing so while using the Drop Pod Assault rule. So both are true.

There is an argument (which would apply to WWP Fire Dragons too) that the Tac squad doesn't have the rule. Clearly a RAW argument, and seems like bad faith, but technically potentially correct. But they are reinforcements that just arrived.

I don't see anything written that tell's us units that disembark from a dedicated transport are counted as reinforcements. I agree that you are still processing the drop pod assault rule, however the Stratagem is effectively an interrupt to that rule, hence letting you shoot the drop pod before the units get out.

In fact if you take note of Bacon's comment on the reinforcement rule.....

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Note that this doesn't include disembarking from a transport. Furthermore the Drop Pod Assault rule gives you special permission to disembark when the Drop Pod arrives since you normally would not be able to do so.

It seems like the argument to have the units inside the drop pod be the target of these stratagems are based on assumptions for things that are not written in the rules. That's not a pandora's box you really want to open in my opinion.

Auspex Scan says "immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements"

Drop Pod Assault describes how to set up these units when you bring them in as reinforcements. It even says, last sentence, "Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."

The troop inside the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement.
The troop inside is being set up on the battlefield.

Both conditions for Auspex Scan are fulfilled.

After a turn has passed (Wave Serpent argument), those troops aren't arriving from reinforcements anymore. They've been on the battlefield for a full turn, they are not 'immediately' disembarking out of regular sequence like Drop Pod Assault must do.

 John Prins wrote:
Auspex Scan says "immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements"

Drop Pod Assault describes how to set up these units when you bring them in as reinforcements. It even says, last sentence, "Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."

The troop inside the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement.
The troop inside is being set up on the battlefield.

Both conditions for Auspex Scan are fulfilled.

After a turn has passed (Wave Serpent argument), those troops aren't arriving from reinforcements anymore. They've been on the battlefield for a full turn, they are not 'immediately' disembarking out of regular sequence like Drop Pod Assault must do.

Not a single thing you said here has any basis in the rules. Why are you making up some form of "turn limit"? If one unit is reinforcement, so is the one in the Wave Serpent.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It needs errata, but we'll get an FAQ ruling if we get anything at all.

Cleaned it up a bit for you.

Drop Pod Assault isn't explicitly Reinforcements either. You'd need to assume it's one of the 'more esoteric' methods. But lots of assumptions.

Unfortunately, much of 8th ed falls apart when read that technically.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
Auspex Scan says "immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements"

Drop Pod Assault describes how to set up these units when you bring them in as reinforcements. It even says, last sentence, "Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."

The troop inside the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement.
The troop inside is being set up on the battlefield.

Both conditions for Auspex Scan are fulfilled.

After a turn has passed (Wave Serpent argument), those troops aren't arriving from reinforcements anymore. They've been on the battlefield for a full turn, they are not 'immediately' disembarking out of regular sequence like Drop Pod Assault must do.

Not a single thing you said here has any basis in the rules. Why are you making up some form of "turn limit"? If one unit is reinforcement, so is the one in the Wave Serpent.

I honestly don't know why I'm even bothering to keep fighting this battle, I swore I was gonna stay out of this thread...but...they aren't "making up" some form of turn limit. The point they are making, one that I happen to agree with, is that the entirety of resolving the DPA rule (including disembarking) represents both Drop Pod and unit inside "arriving from reinforcements. So "immediately after" they arrive (which is when Auspex Scan triggers), the unit inside the drop pod can be targeted. The unit inside the Wave Serpent can't be targeted later when they disembark, because the Wave Serpent's rule that allowed it to come in from reinforcements, along with the unit inside, resolved with them still inside. So by the time they can disembark, in a later turn the "immediately after" trigger has already passed. That's not "making up" a "turn limit", that is obeying the stated trigger for the rule.

To go to the point raised above of whether a unit that arrives in a Wave Serpent (or whatever) has arrived from reinforcements and is a valid target for Auspex Scan, well, arguably, YES. The problem is, at the point that the rule that brought them in resolves, they're still in a vehicle, and so can't be affected by other models. The difference is that the unit in a Drop Pod, at the point that the rule that brings them in from reserves resolves, aren't in a vehicle anymore, and can be affected.

It's like if you have a rule "Immediately after shooting". I can't claim that, because you waited until after I rolled my saves, it's no longer "immediately after shooting". Rolling those saves are part of the rule. Even if I reroll because of some unrelated reroll-one roll.

Maybe I'm going off into the woods on this one, but isn't this solved by how transports are treated for deployment? If you put units inside a transport, only the transport counts as a 'drop' for deployment. The passengers exist in some nebulous area that isn't reserves, isn't on the board and doesn't count for deployment purposes.

So the passengers of Drop Pod Assault can't count as reinforcements because they were never deployed into reserves (or high orbit or a teleport field or whatever the rule wants to call it).

Audustum wrote:
Maybe I'm going off into the woods on this one, but isn't this solved by how transports are treated for deployment? If you put units inside a transport, only the transport counts as a 'drop' for deployment. The passengers exist in some nebulous area that isn't reserves, isn't on the board and doesn't count for deployment purposes.

So the passengers of Drop Pod Assault can't count as reinforcements because they were never deployed into reserves (or high orbit or a teleport field or whatever the rule wants to call it).

Except they were. Drop Pod Assault says "you can set up this model, as well as any units embarked on it, in orbit", so the units inside are explicitly deployed into orbit as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It isn't just an assumption because they're in the transport and the transport is in reserve, the rule explicitly puts the unit in reserve as well.

And yet, it doesn't matter because the unit is never put from reserves onto the battlefield.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And yet, it doesn't matter because the unit is never put from reserves onto the battlefield.

Yeah, I'm not even going to dignify that by treating it as a real argument. Why don't you run along and come back when you plan to, y'know, actually provide and explain your reasoning, instead of this weird idea you have that you can just make proclamations and people will just accept them. They don't, and the sooner you stop thinking you're some magical authority who doesn't have to defend their reasoning, the sooner people will actually be concerned with what you have to say. Other people have provided their reasoning for why they have arrived from reserves onto the battlefield, if you disagree, it's on you to actually refute it.

My reasoning should be pretty obvious. They disembark from the transport, they don't arrive from reserves.

Again, if models disembarking from a Drop Pod count as arriving from reserves, so do models disembarking from a Wave Serpent that arrives from reserve, even if it's been 3 turns since the Wave Serpent arrived.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And yet, it doesn't matter because the unit is never put from reserves onto the battlefield.

The unit arrived with the wave serpent. There's two conditions to qualify for Auspex scan - arrive from reinforcements, and set up on the battlefield.

The unit arrived from reinforcements (embarked in Wave Serpent), but it didn't set up on the battlefield. Auspex Scan isn't triggered on the embarked unit - not only is it embarked (therefore immune to enemy action), but it's not set up on the battlefield.

When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

Units in drop pods BOTH arrive from reinforcements (one of those 'esoteric methods' mentioned) and are set up on the battlefield in the context of Drop Pod Assault. Auspex Scan can therefore be triggered.

If you want to follow your logic to conclusion, then units embarked in the Wave Serpents that don't disembark before the end of the game would be destroyed like any other Reinforcement that has not arrived on the battlefield.

Note that Reinforcements have their own rules attached to them, so it's easy to tell when a unit is a reinforcement. It cannot move or Advance and it counts as having moved for the purposes of shooting. So:

Does the unit deploying from Drop Pod Assault have the ability to move, advance and fire heavy weapons unhindered? Well, no to the first - because they arrived at the end of the movement phase, and no to the second, by virtue of having Disembarked a vehicle. Functionally identical to the normal restrictions on Reinforcements arriving, probably because that's exactly what they are.

Does a unit in a Wave Serpent suffer the same flaws once it Disembarks in a later turn? I'll bet most would say they can move normally because they Disembarked normally , though they suffer heavy weapon penalties by virtue of Disembarking. This is pretty clear indication that they have NOT arrived from Reinforcements when they Disembark later in the game. Arriving from Reinforcements and being set up on the table can be separate events, or they can be a single event. It's hard to argue that Drop Pod Assault isn't a single event, because it all happens immediately by virtue of a single special rule. It's a single event called "Drop Pod Assault".

 John Prins wrote:
When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

A unit that disembarks from a Drop Pod also doesn't "arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game" either.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

A unit that disembarks from a Drop Pod also doesn't "arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game" either.

Ah. Okay. So you'd agree, then, that they are destroyed at the end of turn three?

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

A unit that disembarks from a Drop Pod also doesn't "arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game" either.

Ah. Okay. So you'd agree, then, that they are destroyed at the end of turn three?

RaW, yes, I agree.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

A unit that disembarks from a Drop Pod also doesn't "arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game" either.

All the restrictions that are subject to a unit that arrives from Reinforcements are in place on the unit. They can't move or advance for the same reason all the other reinforcements cannot - it is the end of the movement phase, movement is over. They can't fire heavy weapons without penalty - either from Disembarking or from the Reinforcement rule. That isn't clear but it is immaterial. Effectively, models arriving via the Drop Pod rule have all the same restrictions as any other unit that arrives from Reinforcements. This seems ENTIRELY intentional on GW's part. RAW is so close to RAI that the net effect on the unit is identical.

The unit arriving via Drop Pod Assault is arriving via a Reinforcement special rule (called Drop Pod Assault), therefore it is a Reinforcement. The rules for Reinforcements states that they have their own esoteric rules. Units disembarking from the Drop Pod are part of the esoteric rule for how the unit arrives from Reinforcement.

 John Prins wrote:
The unit arriving via Drop Pod Assault is arriving via a Reinforcement special rule (called Drop Pod Assault), therefore it is a Reinforcement. The rules for Reinforcements states that they have their own esoteric rules. Units disembarking from the Drop Pod are part of the esoteric rule for how the unit arrives from Reinforcement.

Pretty sure they arrive by using the Disembarking rules. Otherwise you could place them anywhere.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
The unit arriving via Drop Pod Assault is arriving via a Reinforcement special rule (called Drop Pod Assault), therefore it is a Reinforcement. The rules for Reinforcements states that they have their own esoteric rules. Units disembarking from the Drop Pod are part of the esoteric rule for how the unit arrives from Reinforcement.

Pretty sure they arrive by using the Disembarking rules. Otherwise you could place them anywhere.

Why do you think it's mutually exclusive?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
The unit arriving via Drop Pod Assault is arriving via a Reinforcement special rule (called Drop Pod Assault), therefore it is a Reinforcement. The rules for Reinforcements states that they have their own esoteric rules. Units disembarking from the Drop Pod are part of the esoteric rule for how the unit arrives from Reinforcement.

Pretty sure they arrive by using the Disembarking rules. Otherwise you could place them anywhere.

Disembarking rules say you can only do that at the start of the movement phase!

Drop pods only come from reinforcement at the end of the movement phase...

So both cant be right....but both are RAW....so that means one of them must break the rules as written and thus the ruling on the unit inside will be completely outside the normal order of battle....so they will not have to follow a strict pattern.

It's almost like the drop pod rule is telling you to disembark at a non standard time.

Raw the unit is arriving from reinforcements.

It was counted as reinforcements for deployment when it was put in the drop pod, it is arriving mid turn from reinforcements. Saying it's not reinforcements is saying it didn't count as an unit in reinforcements during deployment, that would be inaccurate.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost like the drop pod rule is telling you to disembark at a non standard time.

Yep

blaktoof wrote:
Raw the unit is arriving from reinforcements.

You say this despite nothing in the rules saying so? It literally says they disembark.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Raw the unit is arriving from reinforcements.

You say this despite nothing in the rules saying so? It literally says they disembark.

As part of the rule that allows them to arrive as reinforcements. It is possible to have them "disembark", as a part of arriving from reinforcements. The two are not mutually exclusive.

They might not be generally non-exclusive, but in this specific scenario they are.

The drop pod arrives on the battlefield from reinforcements
The unit arrives on the battlefield from the transport, which at this point in time is already on the battlefield.
So in this scenario, I do not believe that the unit arrives on the battlefield from reinforcements.

A hypothetical example of a non exclusive scenaeio might be. My rhino is in reinforcements. My tactical marines disembark and are placed on the battlefield while the rhino is not. Currently I do not believe there is a rule that would allow any army to do so.

For me this is crystal clear: the strategem cannot be used at all in this situation. In my gaming group we are quite casual, so I would be okay if the eldar shot the pod, but not the unit.
Until GW clarifies what they were thinking (or the exact lack thereof) that is

same with Militarium tempestium units, the Necron unit and any marine Auspex unit>?

Just so we know where you stand? Are you against the elder or in general any unit that has this?

No, I'm not anti-eldar here. The same argument of course counts for suspect scan and similar stratagems and for any other deep striking transport that unloads post arrival.

Johnbox24 wrote:
They might not be generally non-exclusive, but in this specific scenario they are.

The drop pod arrives on the battlefield from reinforcements
The unit arrives on the battlefield from the transport, which at this point in time is already on the battlefield.
So in this scenario, I do not believe that the unit arrives on the battlefield from reinforcements.

A hypothetical example of a non exclusive scenaeio might be. My rhino is in reinforcements. My tactical marines disembark and are placed on the battlefield while the rhino is not. Currently I do not believe there is a rule that would allow any army to do so.

For me this is crystal clear: the strategem cannot be used at all in this situation. In my gaming group we are quite casual, so I would be okay if the eldar shot the pod, but not the unit.
Until GW clarifies what they were thinking (or the exact lack thereof) that is

Except that the fact that the unit disembarks in no way means that they "arrive on the battlefield from the transport", text that is never in any way used in the rules for embarking and diembarking. The only time the term "arrive on the battlefield" is ever used is in regards to tactical reserves and rules that allow models to deploy elsewhere and arrive later. DPA is the rule that allows the unit in question to deploy elsewhere and arrive on the table later, and disembarking from the drop pod is part of the resolution of that rule. The fact that it uses the word disembark as a shorthand instead of spelling out the entire process again doesn't magically terminate the resolution of DPA and mean they are done "arriving".

They could easily have written DPA and being required to disembark as two different rules, to clearly dilineate them as separate rules, with disembarking not being part of arriving from reserves, but instead a separate rule that happens afterwards. They didn't. They wrote the rule with disembarking explicitly being part of arriving from reserves.

Seems like the unit can be shot to me. Just another reason to never use drop pods.

The Wave Serpent is set up as part of WWP. Debatable if the guys inside are 'set up', but immaterial: fulfilling the requirements of WWP doesn't involve the guys getting out. So, if they disembark next turn, they are set up as disembarking. They are not disembarking as [fulfilling a rule like WWP].

The DPA rule sets up the Drop Pod, then disembarks the squad. The Squad is then put on the table as setting up the unit. So they set up as disembarking units as DPA units, which are Reinforcements.

So the squad is placed as being 'Set up' as disembarking as DPA as Reinforcements. Much like a Marine is a <Chapter> unit is a Codex Astartes unit is an IoM unit. These things don't necessarily negate eachother.

blaktoof wrote:
Raw the unit is arriving from reinforcements.

It was counted as reinforcements for deployment when it was put in the drop pod, it is arriving mid turn from reinforcements. Saying it's not reinforcements is saying it didn't count as an unit in reinforcements during deployment, that would be inaccurate.

Can you point out where in the drop pod assault rule it says they are arriving as reinforcements? Last time I checked, they are arriving via disembark rules, and as such are not reinforcements.

If we are treating the units who disembark as reinforcements, then the same logic would apply to any unit disembarking from a dedicated transport. Yes, the units have to disembark right away. It doesn't matter if the unit disembarks turn 1, 2, or 3. Disembarking is not the same as arriving as reinforcements.

All of the arguments to support the idea that they are reinforcements depends on assumptions, and not on RaW.

Can you point to the rule that says DS-ing Termies are arriving from Reinforcements?

The Reinforcement rule talks about what counts as Reinforcements. There's discussion on that on the first page of the thread.

The argument is *not* that disembarking makes things count as reinforcements. The argument is that units the DPA rule sets up count as reinforcements. Specifically, the unit sets up as disembarking *as per DPA*, thus as reinforcements. Therefore, sets up as reinforcements.

Yet it doesn't state that passengers count as reinforcements, and they still snter via disembarking - not an arriving from reinforcements activity.

And, still, if they are reinforcements, they arrive as reinforcements when the drop pod lands...while they are still inside. It might be "immediately" after, but it's a different action for them to disembark. Disembarking from a vehicle isn't arriving as reinforcements, and at the point they may possibly count as reinforcements they are protected by the drop pod, so can't be shot.

It also doesn't say "The Drop Pod arrives as reinforcements".

The Reinforcements rule is what makes the Drop Pod 'reinforcements'.

That rule requires the unit to be "set up on the battlefield mid-turn", which clearly both the Pod and disembarking unit do.

It specifies "sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means". Drop Pod Assault is certainly 'more esoteric'.

There aren't any other specifications than those. Clearly units you're setting up using the 'Drop Pod Assault' rule are set up on the battlefield mid-turn. Clearly, it's some 'more esoteric' means.

So what allows the Drop Pod to be considered 'reinforcements', but the unit inside not?

You set the squad up immediately after placing the Drop Pod while executing the Drop Pod Assault. You don't set it up immediately after executing Drop Pod Assault. Setting up the squad isn't part of setting up the Drop Pod, but is part of setting up Drop Pod Assault.

It's quite obvious that we disagree on this one. I accept your arguments as an understandable interpretation, but still come to a different conclusion by my own understanding of the rules.

Guess we need to wait for a ruling by GW (which may never come).

Has this been added to the thread to have GW address? We really need them to weigh in here.

Yes, you can shoot at the units disembarking. Or the drop pod if you want. Both are arriving and being set up. If you don't want your troopers shot put then further than 12 inches away.

I see it that way, its really super easy.

So disembarking units are counted as reinforcements? Could you point me to where it says that in the BRB?

The 'Reinforcements' rule.

Can you point to the rule where a unit set up due to a reinforcements rule is as reinforcements, unless the rule involves disembarking?

Bharring wrote:
The 'Reinforcements' rule.

Can you point to the rule where a unit set up due to a reinforcements rule is as reinforcements, unless the rule involves disembarking?

The part where they are disembarking and not being set up via the reinforcement rules.

How is Drop Pod Assault not a Reinforcement rule?

Bharring wrote:
How is Drop Pod Assault not a Reinforcement rule?

It is, for the drop pod. The units inside the drop pod are embarked upon a vehicle and disembark when it arrives. Again, if that disembark counts then so does one from a wave serpent 5 turns after it arrives.

The point is, the rule is unclear and both arguments have some validity. It needs errata or a special snowflake FAQ ruling to make everyone happy and/or unhappy.

Where does it say units that are set up by some more esoteric means (Drop Pod Assault) are reinforcements, unless they disembark from a vehicle?

Drop Pod Assault sets up both the Pod and the Unit.

The guys disembarking from the Wave Serpent may have arrived as reinforcements 5 turns earlier, but were not set up as reinforcements. They were set up as disembarking as the player's decision (or as the wave serpent getting removed). So they are reinforcements. Just not being set up as, in this case.

Being set up 'as' something isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with being set up 'as' something else. Unless there's some rule somewhere that says so?

The unit inside the drop pod was in reinforcements with the drop pod, because the rule for drop pod assault allows you to put it in reinforcements with the drop pod.

When the pod arrives the unit disembarks, and is set up on the table. The unit just was set up from reinforcements where it was put with the drop pod, and disembarked.

If the unit was not reinforcements you would have to deployed it on the table during deployment.

The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Any claim that they were not reinforcements is saying you chose to not deploy them or play with them this game. They could not have been setup with the drop pod without being reinforcements.

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

From a RAW point of view the unit inside the drop pod was setup somewhere other than the table during deployment making it reinforcements.

From a RaW point of view they disembark from a vehicle, thus use the rules for disembarking, not reinforcements.

Otherwise, a unit that Deep Strikes inside a Wave Serpent would count as reinforcements when it disembarked 4 turns later.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
From a RaW point of view they disembark from a vehicle, thus use the rules for disembarking, not reinforcements.

Otherwise, a unit that Deep Strikes inside a Wave Serpent would count as reinforcements when it disembarked 4 turns later.

That's a ridiculous statement.

The drop pod doesn't count as reinforcements 4 turns after it's placed on the table.

The unit is placed in reinforcements along with the drop pod, yes or no?

If you summon a unit, it arrives as a summoned unit. It also arrives as reinforcements. Right?

What rule states that Disembarking makes a unit not Reinforcements?

The unit in the Serpent could be arguend to have arrived as Reinforcements on the turn the Serpent was placed. When they disembark, they are still reinforcements, but aren't being set up as Reinforcements - because you are not still executing that rule.

The Drop Pod Assualt rule sets up the pod *and* sets up the squad by disembarking them. You are still executing the Drop Pod Assault rule when setting up the disembarking unit. As mentioned upthread, you even couldn't disembark them *unless* the rule specifically allows you to - so if they weren't being set up under the Drop Pod Assault rule, they could not set up (RAW, casualties because of how DPA is written, even). Therefore, they are set up by the rule that fits reinforcements. Therefore, they are set up as reinforcements.

Disembarking from the Serpent 4 turns later is not using the Cloudstrike rule. So the units are reinforcements, but they are not setting up as reinforcements. Cloudstrike has nothing to do with the disembark.

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

From a RAW point of view the unit inside the drop pod was setup somewhere other than the table during deployment making it reinforcements.

Therefore any unit set up in any vechicle counts as refinforcements because they're set up somewhere other than the table during deployment, and can be shot at when they disembark by using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagems?

And must get out of their vehicle before the end of turn 3 or automatically die?

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

From a RAW point of view the unit inside the drop pod was setup somewhere other than the table during deployment making it reinforcements.

Therefore any unit set up in any vechicle counts as refinforcements because they're set up somewhere other than the table during deployment, and can be shot at when they disembark by using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagems?

And must get out of their vehicle before the end of turn 3 or automatically die?

The rules for transports tell you they are set up with the transports and you can deploy the passengers with the transport as one choice, none of which are reinforcements as they are deployed to the table. The embarked models are not physically on the table but the rules have you deploy them together. They are deployed.

The rules for drop pod assault have you put the unit in reinforcements with the drop pod, yes or no?

blaktoof wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

From a RAW point of view the unit inside the drop pod was setup somewhere other than the table during deployment making it reinforcements.

Therefore any unit set up in any vechicle counts as refinforcements because they're set up somewhere other than the table during deployment, and can be shot at when they disembark by using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagems?

And must get out of their vehicle before the end of turn 3 or automatically die?

This also makes no sense.

The rules for transports tell you they are set up with the transports and you can deploy the passengers with the transport as one choice, none of which are reinforcements as they are deployed to the table. The embarked models are not physically on the table but the rules have you deploy them together. They are deployed.

The rules for drop pod assault have you put the unit in reinforcements with the drop pod, yes or no?

Then, if they're put in refinforcements, then they should be counting as reinforcements whenever they come out of the vehicle, right? As BCB has stated, that would mean units disembarking from a Cloud Striking Wave Serpent that started off the board would count as reinforcements since they were deployed off the table. Reinforcerments doesn't say there's an expiration time on counting as reinfocements if you started the game there. That would mean that if the wave serpents arrived turn 2, and you deployed some fire dragons from inside turn 3 (in order to keep them from being destroyed for not being on the board by the end of turn 3), they should still be counting as reinforcements when they get deployed.

If Drop Pod Assault were written more like, "Place this model anywhere that is more than 9 inches away from any enemy units. Then place any units transported by the Drop Pod within 3 inches of it (and more than 9 inches away from any enemy units)," it would be easier to work with. 'Transported' could be swapped out for a better conditional-trigger if need be (say, 'accompanying' or 'that were placed in reserves with'). The term, "Disembark" could be avoided altogether, and it would be possible to differentiate between units entering play via Drop Pod Assault being "Reinforcements" and units embarked on Wave Serpents (or Falcons...) entering play via Cloudstrike NOT being "Reinforcements" (for the purposes of triggering the Stratagems).

Or, the Stratagems could be re-written to more precisely describe the trigger conditions. /shrug

The guys hopping out of the Serpent are Reinforcements, but are not being set up as Reinforcements. Because Cloud Strike has nothing to do with them disembarking.

DPA sets up the disembarking unit. So they are set up as DPA.

Bharring wrote:
The guys hopping out of the Serpent are Reinforcements, but are not being set up as Reinforcements. Because Cloud Strike has nothing to do with them disembarking.

DPA sets up the disembarking unit. So they are set up as DPA.

Shouldn't matterr. If they are reinforcements, they're supposedly reiforcements until they hit the table, aren't they? Where a rule stating when the statute of limitations on them being counted as reinforcements expires if it they stop counting as refinforcements before you put them on the table?

The drop pod is set up on the table, then the units disembark.

In order to shoot the drop pod unit you'd have to make the case that you have line of sight to an embarked unit.

Just because they *must* disembark doesn't change the fact that they are indeed disembarking, and that can ONLY happen *after* the drop pod has arrived from reserves.

The drop pod, and the unit embarked inside, count as *one* object for the purposes of counting reserved units, just as a unit embarked on a vehicle on the table counts as *one* unit on the table.

Deep striking transports should provide some defense from this auspex scan, or the eldar equivalent. It makes intuitive sense. Drop pods are already overcosted trash, if they don't protect from stratagems like this i don't even know what to say.

Pods are trash, yeah.

@doctor,
It doesn't matter, but yes, the guys inside are still 'Reinforcements'. The argument is that when they disembark, unless they are doing so as a Reinforcement rule, they are setting up *as* reinforcements - they are simply setting up.

@Marmatag,
DPA sets up the Pod. Then DPA disembarks and sets up the unit. The rule isn't finished when the Pod is set up. The units inside are also being set up due to the DPA rule. And if setting up the Pod as per the DPA rule makes it reinforcements, why would setting up the unit as per the DPA rule not make them reinforcements?

Which brings us back to is there anything in disembarking that tells you to forget that you're setting up the disembarking units as per DPA?

If there is no expiration time on reinforcements would you allow a player to shoot terminators two turns after the turn they were placed on the table from reinforcements?

Or can we agree there is actually an obvious point In time the unit comes out of reinforcements and ends up on the table.

Bharring wrote:
Pods are trash, yeah.

@doctor,
It doesn't matter, but yes, the guys inside are still 'Reinforcements'. The argument is that when they disembark, unless they are doing so as a Reinforcement rule, they are setting up *as* reinforcements - they are simply setting up.

So, they're reinforcements that are setting up, but they're not setting up as reinforcements? Yeah, that logic sounds a bit dodgy.

""Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements
within 12" of one of your ADEPTUS ASTARTES Infantry
units."

If they're reinforcement that are arriving on the board, how do you say that when you set them up on the board they aren't set up as reinforcements? Where's the rules differentiating between reinforcements setting up as reinforcement and reinforcements that aren't setting up as reinforcements. Sounds like something that's being done by HIWPI and not RAW (or even RAI, but given how GW is I don't think anybody could accurately state what the RAI is)





Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
If there is no expiration time on reinforcements would you allow a player to shoot terminators two turns after the turn they were placed on the table from reinforcements?

Or can we agree there is actually an obvious point In time the unit comes out of reinforcements and ends up on the table.

You mean when the vehicle that they're in arrives from reinforcements, and they're in the vehicle when it is set up as reinforcements? And that disembarking after that is just plain disembarking? It seems the only consistent thing, one that also has some RAW bearing.

Is Arriving vs Has Arrived. Combined with the 'immediately after'.

That last statement is accurate, for as far as it goes.

If a unit is disembarking as the transport was destroyed, they are just plain disembarking, but also disembarking as the the transport was destroyed.

The RAW reading I have here is that 'as' means that they are set up per the Reinforcements rule. That could be argued, but then, the Pod - or the DSing termies - also wouldn't be 'set up as reinforcements'. I think we agree that far.

The difference is that the DPA rule sets up the units disembarking from the transport. Disembarking isn't naturally 'as reinforcements', but placing models per DPA is 'as reinforcements'. It's just aslo 'as disembarking in this case'.

To look at it another way, look at 'as casualties'. If you lose models to the Morale rules, you remove them per the Morale rules, but they are remove 'as casualties'. The Morale rule doesn't make them not 'as casualties', and the 'as casualties' doesn't mean they weren't removed as per the Morale rule.

The difference is you have the unit in your esample disembarking AS the vehicle is destroyed. DPA has the units disembarking AFTER the transport lands. "As" and "after" are two completely different things.

After the transport lands, DPA has you disembark the unit. It's still DPA that sets up the unit.

After you roll your to-hit attacks, you roll your to-wound attacks. The to-wound attacks are still part of your shooting.

The DPA rule is still actively setting up the unit - it doesn't end just because you did the first clause.

The unit was in reinforcements and when it is placed on the table arrived during that player turn from reinforcements.

Nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and was placed from reinforcements during the turn.

The unit arriving from reinforcements with a drop pod, disembarking from the drop pod does not change that the unit is coming from reinforcements that turn( it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and at the end of movement is not because it is on the table deployed) are an eligible target for auspex scan.

After all this back and forth I'm convinced of the following:


The unit inside a deep striking transport is considered reinforcements (meaning yes, if they don't disembark by turn 3 they are destroyed).

Forwarned/Auspex scan can be used to target either the pod, or the unit inside but not both. This is because to shoot the pod you would have to fire "imediately" after it touched the table or wait till the unit gets out and use it then.

blaktoof wrote:
The unit was in reinforcements and when it is placed on the table arrived during that player turn from reinforcements.

Nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and was placed from reinforcements during the turn.

The unit arriving from reinforcements with a drop pod, disembarking from the drop pod does not change that the unit is coming from reinforcements that turn( it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and at the end of movement is not because it is on the table deployed) are an eligible target for auspex scan.

If nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements, then there isn't anything to negate that it's still in reinforcements until put on the table, whether the same turn or in a later turn. With your statement you have to show how passengers in a cloud striking wave serpent stop counting as reinforcements before they disembark. And then, by extension, how come units normally embarked in a vehicle at the beginning of the game don't likewise get counted as reinforcements, are eligible to be shot at using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagem when disembarking, and will be destroyed by the end of turn 3 if they haven't disembarked.

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit was in reinforcements and when it is placed on the table arrived during that player turn from reinforcements.

Nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and was placed from reinforcements during the turn.

The unit arriving from reinforcements with a drop pod, disembarking from the drop pod does not change that the unit is coming from reinforcements that turn( it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and at the end of movement is not because it is on the table deployed) are an eligible target for auspex scan.

If nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements, then there isn't anything to negate that it's still in reinforcements until put on the table, whether the same turn or in a later turn. With your statement you have to show how passengers in a cloud striking wave serpent stop counting as reinforcements before they disembark. And then, by extension, how come units normally embarked in a vehicle at the beginning of the game don't likewise get counted as reinforcements, are eligible to be shot at using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagem when disembarking, and will be destroyed by the end of turn 3 if they haven't disembarked.

He's explained how several times, you're just ignoring it. The DPA unit counts as arriving from reinforcements because they were disembarked as part of DPA, the rule that allowed them to arrive as reinforcements. Their disembarkment is part of arriving from reinforcements. Hence the "immediately after arriving as reinforcements". Nothing about Cloud Strike allows the unit to disembark. Cloud Strike has resolved, the transport and the unit inside have finished arriving, and the game has moved well past the "immediately after" trigger before the unit inside has an opportunity to disembark, per the normal movement rules, not the rule that allowed the unit to arrive as reinforcements.

Units inside a transport normally at the start of the game don't count as reinforcements because the normal rules for embark/disembark do not fulfill the requirements for "tactical reserves" and they don't get destroyed at the end of turn three, because that rule is written in such a way that makes it clear that it is intended to refer to units in reserve.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit was in reinforcements and when it is placed on the table arrived during that player turn from reinforcements.

Nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and was placed from reinforcements during the turn.

The unit arriving from reinforcements with a drop pod, disembarking from the drop pod does not change that the unit is coming from reinforcements that turn( it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and at the end of movement is not because it is on the table deployed) are an eligible target for auspex scan.

If nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements, then there isn't anything to negate that it's still in reinforcements until put on the table, whether the same turn or in a later turn. With your statement you have to show how passengers in a cloud striking wave serpent stop counting as reinforcements before they disembark. And then, by extension, how come units normally embarked in a vehicle at the beginning of the game don't likewise get counted as reinforcements, are eligible to be shot at using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagem when disembarking, and will be destroyed by the end of turn 3 if they haven't disembarked.

He's explained how several times, you're just ignoring it. The DPA unit counts as arriving from reinforcements because they were disembarked as part of DPA, the rule that allowed them to arrive as reinforcements. Their disembarkment is part of arriving from reinforcements. Hence the "immediately after arriving as reinforcements". Nothing about Cloud Strike allows the unit to disembark. Cloud Strike has resolved, the transport and the unit inside have finished arriving, and the game has moved well past the "immediately after" trigger before the unit inside has an opportunity to disembark, per the normal movement rules, not the rule that allowed the unit to arrive as reinforcements.

Nope, sorry, that does not explain it. If they're reinforcements when they're in the Wave Serpent at the start, they'd still be reinforcements when they disembark when they disembark. The rules for reinforcements do not have an "immediately after" trigger; there is no indication from the Refinforcements rule of how the ones Cloud Striking change their status before coming out. You people are insisting that things don't have to be mutually exclusive, so the Refinforcements status for infantry in the Wave Serpents - according to the precedents claimed by people here - would still be applicable until they are set up on the board. There is no statement that they lose refinforcements status. It doesn't matter if there is nothing about Cloud Strike that allows them to disembark; what matters about Cloud Strike is that they start with the Wave Serpent off the board and get Reinforcements status because of that. They are refinforcements, when they arrive on the board in whatever turn they should be arriving as reinforcements unless there's an established mechanism for them to stop counting. If it's a time factor, then it should be applicable to the infantry in the drop pod as well, regardless of whether those infantry embark as a separate action based on DPA. It's not consistent treating them different.

I think the conflation comes from "are reinforcements" and "as reinforcements". The guys bailing out of the serpent "are reinforcements", but they aren't disembarking because of, as per, or "as" reinforcements. The DPA dudes are set up as per Disembark, "as per" Reinforcements, under the DPA rule.

Time is a factor. The difference is that the DPA disembark happens as per the DPA rule, and during the execution of the DPA rule. The Serpent guys disembarking does not happen during or as per the WWP rule.

It is consistent treating them differently, because that they're disembarking isn't relevant. The ones from the DPA are being set up per DPA. The ones from the Serpent aren't being sset up per WWP.

Bharring wrote:
I think the conflation comes from "are reinforcements" and "as reinforcements". The guys bailing out of the serpent "are reinforcements", but they aren't disembarking because of, as per, or "as" reinforcements. The DPA dudes are set up as per Disembark, "as per" Reinforcements, under the DPA rule.

Time is a factor. The difference is that the DPA disembark happens as per the DPA rule, and during the execution of the DPA rule. The Serpent guys disembarking does not happen during or as per the WWP rule.

It is consistent treating them differently, because that they're disembarking isn't relevant. The ones from the DPA are being set up per DPA. The ones from the Serpent aren't being sset up per WWP.

This is entirely made up and has no basis in the rules as written in the rulebooks and codex.

Bharring wrote:
I think the conflation comes from "are reinforcements" and "as reinforcements". The guys bailing out of the serpent "are reinforcements", but they aren't disembarking because of, as per, or "as" reinforcements. The DPA dudes are set up as per Disembark, "as per" Reinforcements, under the DPA rule.

Time is a factor. The difference is that the DPA disembark happens as per the DPA rule, and during the execution of the DPA rule. The Serpent guys disembarking does not happen during or as per the WWP rule.

It is consistent treating them differently, because that they're disembarking isn't relevant. The ones from the DPA are being set up per DPA. The ones from the Serpent aren't being sset up per WWP.

But we have people telling us that they don't have to be mutually exclusive. If they're reinforcements at the end of deployment, then when they are set up they would be set up as reinforcements, whichever rule the use to be set up on the board. We aren't ever told their status changed before they disembarked, you would have to provide a rule that states when and how their status changed. Your explanation is not providing the rules that state their status changes.

Set up "as reinforcements" isn't a status on the unit, it's a modifier on the action of setting up.

The units are reinforcements. To set up reinformcents, you need a rule to set them up - Disembarking works. But to set up *as* reinforcements, you need a rule to set them up that counts as Reinforcements. Units set up by DPA are set as Reinforcements. Units set up by WWP are set up as Reinforcements. Units that are reinforcements, but are set up without using a Reinforcement rule are not set up as Reinforcements.

A unit "set up as Reinforcements" is about if the 'set up' is Reinforcements, no the unit is 'Reinforcements', per grammatical rules of English.

If it were "Reinforcements set up", you'd have a point.

Bharring wrote:
Set up "as reinforcements" isn't a status on the unit, it's a modifier on the action of setting up.

The units are reinforcements. To set up reinformcents, you need a rule to set them up - Disembarking works. But to set up *as* reinforcements, you need a rule to set them up that counts as Reinforcements. Units set up by DPA are set as Reinforcements. Units set up by WWP are set up as Reinforcements. Units that are reinforcements, but are set up without using a Reinforcement rule are not set up as Reinforcements.

A unit "set up as Reinforcements" is about if the 'set up' is Reinforcements, no the unit is 'Reinforcements', per grammatical rules of English.

If it were "Reinforcements set up", you'd have a point.

Rules quote for your assertion, please. I have a sidebar on Refinforcements that labels them Reinforcements - they're not on the board at the start, they come on the board mid-turn. Common English says that units that are reinforcements that are set up as reinforcements as they are reinforcements. They aren't set up as non-reinforcements. Anything put into reinfofcements would have the reinforcements rules saying that when they are set up, they are set up as reinforcements.

If a cop goes into a bar to get a drink, he doesn't go into the bar as a cop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have a rules quote for how "As Reinforcements" is a game term outside standard english grammar?

Bharring wrote:
If a cop goes into a bar to get a drink, he doesn't go into the bar as a cop.

Really? They often go in as cops, especially if it's a cop bar. But,your analogy runs afoul of the Tenets of YMDC - trying to use real world examples.

Bharring wrote:
IAutomatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have a rules quote for how "As Reinforcements" is a game term outside standard english grammar?

I have what they say for Reinforcements in the Battle Primer.

I wasn't using a realworld example. I was using a gramatical example.

A clause of the structure '[item] that [action] as [attribute]' means that the [attribute] modifies the [action]. I wasn't referring to the cop. Going in for a drink to a cop bar is a real world example. A cop going in for a drink not going in as a cop is a gramatical example.

The rules of grammar must be leveraged. Otherwise, we can't even parse a sentence.

The fallacy though is that anything that's set up that's coming in from reinforcements is being set up as a refinforcement. You haven't shown how them being classified as a reinforcement at the start doesn't mean they get set up as reinforcements when they are set up. The cop analogy doesn't quite apply here.

You haven't shown how they are set up as reinforcements.

The argument that DPA units are reinforcements is because DPA sets them up, DPA is a reinforcement rule, and the units are reinforcements.

The Cloud Strike embarked units aren't set up by Cloud Strike. Cloud strike is a reinforcement rule, and the embarked units are reinforcements, but Cloud Strike is not involved in setting the unit up.

Again, the unit must be 'set up *as* reinforcements'. Not 'reinfocrements set up'. It is the set up, not the unit, that differs.

Units embarked in a transport that is setup on the battlefield are set up on the battlefield themselves as well, even though they are embarked.

An unit embarked in a falcon or wave serpent that is set up via cloudstrike means both units a single deployment choice and both are in reinforcements by not being setup to the table during deployment.

The matched play tactical reserves rule states units not setup to the tablr during deployment are reinforcements, the unit in the drop pod or wave serpent are not setup to the table- they are by the rules as written reinforcements.

An unit setup with a drop pod via drop pod assault are a single deployment choice and are both in reinforcements by not being set up to the table during deployment.

In either of the above cases when the falcon/wave serpent is setup to the table from reinforcements the unit inside is also setup to the table as reinforcements, however they are embarked and not required to disembark. Theybareived that turn as reinforcements just as their transport did.

The same is the case for an unit in a drop pod, although drop pod assault requires the unit to disembark making it an eligible target.

Following turns none of the units listed above are reinforcements.

An unit embarked in a transport was still in reinforcements at the start of the turn the turn it is setup from reinforcements. Even embarked it is setup on the table legs pee the RAW for embarked units being deployed(see rulebook and designers commentary FAQ on deployment and transports)

As such the unit in the falcon/ wave serpent is no longer in reinforcements just as the you it which was forced to disembark would no longer be in reinforcements, just as both transports would no longer be in reinforcements after they are setup on the table.

Setting up a unit and arriving from reinforcements are not status flags that stick to a unit for a certain period of time, but actual distinct events. You set up a unit while You are placing models on the table. If they were in reinforcements before you are setting up from there, if you were in a transport you are setting up.from there etc.

But, putting aside my disagreement for a minute- let us assume you are correct.
You could still not use auspex scan etc. against drop pod or the disembarking unit due to the timing restrictions:
1. Drop pod and unit arrive together from reinforcements. The drop pod unit is still embarked but the pod is placed on the tavle
2. You need to use the stratagem now, but the unit must disembark immediately. Also the SM player is active and can resolve this timing conflict as he likes.
3. The unit disembarkes. Note that disembarking this is mandated by the drop pod assault rule, it is not actually part of arriving from reinforcements. Drop pod assault clearly states "after". Check out the trigon rules where the units clearly arrive together for contrast. Those unit explicitly arrive and set up together
4. The time for using the stratagem has passed ("immediately after") and therefore cannot be used

So no matter who is fundamentally right, the result is the same. I guess that makes the argument itself pointless

Either way, we did not see a ruling in the new FAQ. This hasn't come up in game yet luckily, but my personal "narrative view" tells me that the valid target should be:
Drop pod - yes
Unit - no

Johnbox24 wrote:
Setting up a unit and arriving from reinforcements are not status flags that stick to a unit for a certain period of time, but actual distinct events. You set up a unit while You are placing models on the table. If they were in reinforcements before you are setting up from there, if you were in a transport you are setting up.from there etc.

But, putting aside my disagreement for a minute- let us assume you are correct.
You could still not use auspex scan etc. against drop pod or the disembarking unit due to the timing restrictions:
1. Drop pod and unit arrive together from reinforcements. The drop pod unit is still embarked but the pod is placed on the tavle
2. You need to use the stratagem now, but the unit must disembark immediately. Also the SM player is active and can resolve this timing conflict as he likes.
3. The unit disembarkes. Note that disembarking this is mandated by the drop pod assault rule, it is not actually part of arriving from reinforcements. Drop pod assault clearly states "after". Check out the trigon rules where the units clearly arrive together for contrast. Those unit explicitly arrive and set up together
4. The time for using the stratagem has passed ("immediately after") and therefore cannot be used

So no matter who is fundamentally right, the result is the same. I guess that makes the argument itself pointless

Either way, we did not see a ruling in the new FAQ. This hasn't come up in game yet luckily, but my personal "narrative view" tells me that the valid target should be:
Drop pod - yes
Unit - no

Both units are set up in reinforcements.

From auspex scan:

Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within 12"of one of your ADEPTUSASTARTES Infantry units

From drop pod assault:

Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be setup more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models that cannot be setup because there is not enough room are slain.

Note the bolded part of the quotes. The rules for drop pod assault specifically call out the unit is setup after disembarking from the drop pod.

the unit is setup on the table after it disembarks. The unit did arrive that turn from reinforcements as it was in reinforcements at the beginning of the turn.

RAW an unit disembarking from a drop pod is setup on the table, it has arrived from reinforcements that movement phase. It is an eligible target for auspex scan. The correct time to use the stratagem is when the unit is setup, which is after it disembarks per the rules for drop pod assault.

The unit did arrive that turn from reinforcements as it was in reinforcements at the beginning of the turn. 

And this is exactly where I disagree with your opinion. "Arriving from reinforcements" does not "last one turn" but is an exact point in time. In the drop pod example that point in time is while the unit is still embarked.

The rules for drop pod assault specifically call out the unit is setup after disembarking.

The unit has not arrived from reinforcements to the table until it is setup, and in the case of drop pod assault that is by being setup on the table not by being embarked per the RAW- as drop pod assault specifically calls out the unit being setup within 9" of the transport as quoted above.

This is not an opinion, those are the actual written rules.

Setting the units on the table does not mean that they are reinforcements. If that was the case, all units that disembark would be reinforcements - which is absurd in my view.

The models are disembarking from a transport. The DPA rule clearly states this. We need to use the disembarking rules - which is covered on page 183. No mention of reinforcements at all, but it does say that all models are set up on the board. Your argument would have a stronger standing if your position is that any disembarking units count as reinforcements, but your trying to tell us that they are reinforcements because they disembarked right away... and disembarking rules say nothing about that. Since the DPA rule clearly states they are a disembarking from a dedicated transport we need to apply the disembarking rules, and stop applying other rules that might kinda seem to apply. Problem is that the BRB doesn't tell us to use them.

One other important factor. Remember that we are talking about two different units. The Drop Pod is the unit that arrives on the table, and then the unit of whatever the DP is transporting. They are not one in the same.

And we're back to where does it state that applying Disembarking rules means we're not applying DPA rules?

Further, if you're applying Disembarking rules and not DPA rules while setting up the unit, they cannot be placed, as they cannot disembark on the turn they arrived. So, because you could not place them, per DPA, they are removed as casualties.

DPA tells you to use Disembarking rules. But you're using DPA while you're using Disembarking. Both rules are part of setting up the unit. Thus, they are using DPA to set up. Thus, as reinforcements.

Where, in the rules, does it state that Disembarking units are not being set up as per DPA?

"Further, if you're applying Disembarking rules and not DPA rules while setting up the unit, they cannot be placed, as they cannot disembark on the turn they arrived"

So, you get to the crux of this with your statement here. You admit here that when they arrive, they are still in the drop pod. They don't disembark until after the drop pod arrives. Therefore, when they disembark, they are disembarking at a point where from where they have already arrived before. It doesn't matter if it's "immediately" or next turn. It doesn't matter if it's Drop Pod Assault that lets them disembark that turn; when they arrive they are in the drop pod, and that's the only time you could shoot them as arriving from reserves. Once the drop pod hits the table, they are not in reserves any more, they are in a transport which is on the table.

Immediately after your shooting attack is after I roll my saves. Not immediately after you roll to attack.

Immediately after is after the rule is resolved. Disembarking is part of resolving DPA.

Besides, the wording is immediately after "... set up as reinforcements...". Even if they arrived on the table in the first part of the rule, they are still set up 'as reinforcements' during the second part of the DPA rule.

It could be argued that you must interupt the DPA rule to be 'immediately after'. In that case, you're still able to do it immediately after they are 'set up as reinforcements'. The only argument there is are they 'as reinforcements'. If they're set up as DPA, they are set up as reinforcements. And they are set up as disembarking as DPA. Therefore, you can act immediately if that were the rules.

If the rules mean that 'immediately after' means immediately after the rule that sets them up (DPA), you're still fine. The last step is setting up that unit, so when you act you're immediately after (the pod could be argued here, though).

So regardless of whether 'immediately after' is after you finish with the act that sets them up or 'immediately after' the last model is physically placed, they are still legal targets.

(As an aside, the reading that says 'immediately after' must be as soon as the last model is placed, it would mean anything 'immediately after' a unit shoots would have to be before save rolls or FnP rolls.)

The DPA rule itself converts the models from not being deployed on the board to being set up on the board. The DPA rule is a Reinforcements rule. The set up happens as part of the DPA rule. 'As reinforcements' modifies 'sets up', not the unit.

After is not the same as "the time as". There is a discrete difference.

The drop pod landing converts the passengers from being reinforcements to just being passengers. Otherwise, pasengers in a wave serpent would still be reinforcements despite disembarking from a cloud striking wave serpent on a different turn from when it arrived.

 doctortom wrote:
"Further, if you're applying Disembarking rules and not DPA rules while setting up the unit, they cannot be placed, as they cannot disembark on the turn they arrived"

So, you get to the crux of this with your statement here. You admit here that when they arrive, they are still in the drop pod. They don't disembark until after the drop pod arrives. Therefore, when they disembark, they are disembarking at a point where from where they have already arrived before. It doesn't matter if it's "immediately" or next turn. It doesn't matter if it's Drop Pod Assault that lets them disembark that turn; when they arrive they are in the drop pod, and that's the only time you could shoot them as arriving from reserves. Once the drop pod hits the table, they are not in reserves any more, they are in a transport which is on the table.

And you hit the Crux of the argument, the drop pod rules modify the normal rules for disembarking. Drop pod assault happens at the end of the movement phase, so the unit disembarking cannot move unlike a normal disembark. Additionally drop pod assault allows models to disembark after the transport moved, as the drop pod counts as moving if it comes from reinforcements. And the most important part.

The rules for drop pod call out the unit is setup 9" from the drop pod. The unit has arrived from reinforcements and is setup on the table which is the trigger for auspex scan. Which people keep ignoring by sticking their head in the sand and say but disembark means it was in the vehicle. The rules are satisfied by an unit arriving as reinfrocements immediately after it is setup. An unit disembarking from a drop pod is arriving as reinforcements and the drop pod rule calls out that setting the unit up x" from the drop pod is setting it up. That is a completely valid time then use auspex scan. No one is trying to shoot the unit before it disembarks because it is not set up at that point if you follow the rules for drop pod assault which says it is setup when it is placed disembarked from the drop pod.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
After is not the same as "the time as". There is a discrete difference.

The drop pod landing converts the passengers from being reinforcements to just being passengers. Otherwise, pasengers in a wave serpent would still be reinforcements despite disembarking from a cloud striking wave serpent on a different turn from when it arrived.

This isn't true as they don't follow the normal rules for disembarking, if they did then RAW they would not be able to disembark from the drop pod as it counts as moving when coming from reinforcements.