I've been rolling guard almost exclusively since 8th happened, usually with 3-6 Russ tanks. My local meta is fairly lean on psykers and they rarely survive 36 inches of plasma, so I come to the question:
What's the problem with smite spam?
I haven't seen it in action to any great degree so I don't really get the hostility against it. Is there a particular doctrine that it's broken to draw such negativity?
Well. One smite can kill 9 points of Conscripts or 50 points of Custodes a turn. Or even better, 50 points of Terminators or Deathwing Knights a turn with the same ease they kill 6 points of Conscripts.
If your enemy is spamming psykers for smite, theres two options:
-He is playing orks
-He is playing Imperial Guard
If those two armies don't have screens for their psyker characters... I don't know how is that guy playing his army, but he is playing it wrong.
As a GK player with a few exceptions my Smites are only range 12 and do 1 mortal wound. It's hard for me to really kill anything of significance with my smites.
Smite spam can be a big issue if done correctly, there are quite a few battle reports out there showing how effective it can be. Having said that it's most effective on expensive units. Smite can kill a terminator as easily as a conscript, and if you can get multiple smites off a turn it turns bad.
The real issue is some armies have to play it that way, they don't have much of a chance if they don't.
Take a look at thousand sons / tzeench. Magnus can more reliably get the d6 mortal wounds off, greater deamon of tzeench and fate weaver as well. All rubric marines have an aspiring sorcerer leading them for another weak smite. Horrors of tzeench that's another smite location. Brimstones can even smite, and they are cheap as heck.
Now imagine you play an elite army, you play marines and use bikers and terminators for their better toughness and armor save. Except smite doesn't care about either. Thats dead squads, dead tanks, heck dead marines can hurt your chances if the smite starts flowing.
Smite spam is a thing. And it sucks when it happens to you unless you prepared for it.
When 8th edition rumours started coming in, and I heard Mortal Wounds would be a thing, I suspected they might be a problem; when I heard that the basic psychic power accessible by every psyker in the game would cause them, I knew they would be a problem. Mortal Wounds are just a bad mechanic, especially if not used super sparingly; they are completely disproportionately powerful against certain targets.
Crimson wrote: When 8th edition rumours started coming in, and I heard Mortal Wounds would be a thing, I suspected they might be a problem; when I heard that the basic psychic power accessible by every psyker in the game would cause them, I knew they would be a problem. Mortal Wounds are just a bad mechanic, especially if not used super sparingly; they are completely disproportionately powerful against certain targets.
I agree, I think mortal wounds would be fine if everyone and everything psychic couldn't do it.
Heck, change smite to be a wound at ap-3 so that you still get an invulnerable save vs it and maybe an armor save. That would be better than it is now. Then you would be able to make things more interesting for armies like Grey knights. Sure, they can only do 1 wound, but it's a mortal wound. Instant switch in the dynamic.
Allows wounding anything ignoring pretty much any defences target might have(unless they have special snowflake rule to help them out) thus allowing easy solution to get rid of units that pay a lot for survivability. Tanks, terminators, monster. When caster is dirt cheap(IG, orks) that gets issue. Only defence for this is basically screens thus one more reason(apart from alpha strike extreme) leading to screen hammer where you are badly screwed up if you DON'T bring couple dirt cheap units like conscripts, cultists etc.
And how on earth you get characters sniped out that easily? Obviously they should be walking behind the mandatory screens.
Crimson wrote: When 8th edition rumours started coming in, and I heard Mortal Wounds would be a thing, I suspected they might be a problem; when I heard that the basic psychic power accessible by every psyker in the game would cause them, I knew they would be a problem. Mortal Wounds are just a bad mechanic, especially if not used super sparingly; they are completely disproportionately powerful against certain targets.
Mortal Wounds are a good mechanic agaisn't Elite armies and Deathstars. But as they are geared towards anti-elite units they shouldn't be spammeable as they are right now. They should be expensive, and limited. Mortal Wounds are to Invulnerable saves what Lasscannons are to Tanks.
Not that elite armies really need that much of a hit...If anything they are pretty weak. Not much guns if any that are actually more point efficient toward horde than elite troops.
I'm fine with the Mortal Wounds mechanic, but GW has - as usual - let their designers go a little silly employing it.
A quick and terribly easy solution to Smite (rules-wise) is to simply apply the same Matched Play limitation on it as all other powers. Problem solved instantaneously.
As the codices are released, almost every army has a secondary psychic power similar to Smite (and often better) so limiting Smite wouldn't hurt much. Provide an exception for non-Smite...Smites (i.e. the Grey Knight power and other garbage like Eldar Destructor).
Again, a lot of this comes down to people you'll play and who you're willing to play. If someone showed up at my local club with 10 Malefic Lords with the obvious intention of Smite-spamming, they can find someone else to play. If you show up with 2-3 psykers in your 2000 point army - all good, let's roll some dice.
I get the feeling (mainly from various podcasts) that Smite will be changed or toned down eventually. I don't find it particularly powerful, but then Eldar can't really Smite spam, so I don't run into it much locally.
There should be some limitation to mortal wounds. They shouldnt be able to hurt vehicles, or only on 5+, for example. A hit from a S14-16 weapon still needs to wound a vehicle, and if it does there still might be an armor or invuln sv against it. But against a simple smite you can have a T10 vehicle, it doesnt matter. Thats just wrong.
Would a progressively more difficult cast value help?
First time it goes off on a 5, next time it goes off on a 6, third casting requires a 7, fourth an 8, etc.
Armies with two or three psykers will probably never have much of an issue, concentrating Smite against a big scary target is still powerful but more difficult, and the power remains useful. It's not something I've personally seen armies built around or abusing much around my neck of the woods.
Vaktathi wrote: Would a progressively more difficult cast value help?
First time it goes off on a 5, next time it goes off on a 6, third casting requires a 7, fourth an 8, etc.
Armies with two or three psykers will probably never have much of an issue, concentrating Smite against a big scary target is still powerful but more difficult, and the power remains useful. It's not something I've personally seen armies built around or abusing much around my neck of the woods.
This, with a -1 or -2 to Cast smite for low-level psykers are the suggestions that I have read that I believe are the more balanced.
Just change Smite to regular Wounds, its meant to be a fall back power, and there are usually other MW powers, maybe anyone limited to diet Smite like GK and Warlocks get to keep their 1 MW version
Its far too strong against models that pay alot for toughness and saves.
On the other side of that coin however, its sometimes the only way to deal with such models.
The issue is some armies can take far too much of it (i.e. Chaos, Astra militarum, Tyranids now as well).
Adding one to the difficulty for every successive smite is a very good fix to it. You would still be able to get 3 or 4 off with good odds, but more than that will be hard. This is enough to hurt big stuff but doesn't just delete them off the table in one turn.
As an example, I made a nid list that averages 32 mortal wounds per turn and could deal an additional 30 or so with spore mines if they weren't shot off the table. Againgst conscripts or gaunts its not an issue, but againgst any model that costs more than 12pts per wound its pretty rough.
Mortal wounds are fine, they are a necessary part of the game balance. What is not fine is the easy access to it, like it happens in Age of Sigmar.
40K has been designed much better in regard to this, there aren't many abilities that inflict mortal wounds and they are usually situational. Smite is the only real issue, with it being so widespread and cheap.
I would be OK with progressively harder spams if it also ment more likely to perils. Cast it a second time and you get -1 to your roll, a third time -2, and so on. That means the more you cast it the more you get away from that 11+ for d6 wounds and the closer you get to that double 1's peril. (I know this isn't actually how it works with perils, it's the roll not the end value that causes it but you get what I am saying).
Would you really want to try smite if you roll a value of 2, 3, or 4 would kill you?
Azuza001 wrote: I would be OK with progressively harder spams if it also ment more likely to perils. Cast it a second time and you get -1 to your roll, a third time -2, and so on. That means the more you cast it the more you get away from that 11+ for d6 wounds and the closer you get to that double 1's peril. (I know this isn't actually how it works with perils, it's the roll not the end value that causes it but you get what I am saying).
Would you really want to try smite if you roll a value of 2, 3, or 4 would kill you?
I think the -1 for every time you try to cast it is good enough. If some of the cheaper psykers need still more tuned balance they can have in their dathasheet a -1 or -2 to cast Smite or Psychic powers. If the best psykers have a bonus, the worst ones should have a malus to cast.
I like the idea of primaris psykers and malefic lords having a malus to cast. I really don't like the idea of there being an overarching penalty to cast smite; that'd just screw elite casters just as much as the gakky ones, which really isn't necessary.
Arachnofiend wrote: I like the idea of primaris psykers and malefic lords having a malus to cast. I really don't like the idea of there being an overarching penalty to cast smite; that'd just screw elite casters just as much as the gakky ones, which really isn't necessary.
Except those high powered casters wouldn\t be casting it that much so they wouldn't suffer from that as much.
Though it would still just make cheap psykers give most optimal smite/point ratio which is not good and still makes that hundreds of years of experience allows you still only as good as some basic mass produced psyker of IG or ork weirdboy that has just insticts and not that much control over his abilities to begin with. Not logical.
Would solve spam issue but would still keep cheap psykers as best psykers.
Arachnofiend wrote: I like the idea of primaris psykers and malefic lords having a malus to cast. I really don't like the idea of there being an overarching penalty to cast smite; that'd just screw elite casters just as much as the gakky ones, which really isn't necessary.
Except those high powered casters wouldn\t be casting it that much so they wouldn't suffer from that as much.
Though it would still just make cheap psykers give most optimal smite/point ratio which is not good and still makes that hundreds of years of experience allows you still only as good as some basic mass produced psyker of IG or ork weirdboy that has just insticts and not that much control over his abilities to begin with. Not logical.
Would solve spam issue but would still keep cheap psykers as best psykers.
Making every smite harder than the previous one solves Smite-spam. Giving malus to the cheaper psykers (And bonus to the best ones) solves the problem of cheaper psykers being more cost-efficient and better at casting spells.
But to be honest instead of having malus and bonuses in every datasheet we could have back Psyker levels. You are a Psyker Level 1? -1 to cast. Psyker lvl 2? Nothing. Psyker lvl 3? +1 to cast. Psyker Level 4? +2 to Cast.
Smite spam with orks is not an issue since orks don't have any reliable anti tank.
An ork list based on smite spam is always a greentide where orks can only have tons of S4 with no ap attacks and smite. Eventually the lone pk of the warboss and maybe a few shot from the artillery, on average just 1-5 hits at S8 Ap-2 per turn.
And usually orks psykers cast Da Jump and Warpath, so even with 5+ weirdboyz you'll only have 2-3 of them that cast smite. It's doesn't seem that terrible.
I hadn't really used smite until my last game. Storm shield on dreads are super tough my best weapons bouncing off due to those. Smite helped but wasn't ever enough with only one weird boy. One of the local guys has complained about smite but more so about 30 point psyker spam. I think that's more so where the problem is.
warhead01 wrote: I hadn't really used smite until my last game. Storm shield on dreads are super tough my best weapons bouncing off due to those. Smite helped but wasn't ever enough with only one weird boy. One of the local guys has complained about smite but more so about 30 point psyker spam. I think that's more so where the problem is.
They are interlinked. You can't have smite spam without cheap psykers and smite gives reason to bring multiple psykers.
I like Smite. It and related attack oriented Psychics are actually useful this edition. I might be wrong, but I think one of the big issues is not necessarily Smite itself, but the prevalence of ultra-cheap Psykers that can spam Smite.
warhead01 wrote: I hadn't really used smite until my last game. Storm shield on dreads are super tough my best weapons bouncing off due to those. Smite helped but wasn't ever enough with only one weird boy. One of the local guys has complained about smite but more so about 30 point psyker spam. I think that's more so where the problem is.
They are interlinked. You can't have smite spam without cheap psykers and smite gives reason to bring multiple psykers.
True enough. I guess I was thinking about a comment above that didn't want smite to hurt vehicles as easily or at all.
As a thought about spam, just how much should a psyker cost then? Just how low of a cost opens up the abuse? I'd like to run 3 weird boys but haven played a game t a high enough points level to find the points for more than one.
Every game mechanic and unit can be balanced by points, no need to make things any more complicated rule wise. Smite for under 50 points is just too powerful - its that simple.
I agree mortal wounds their issues as a mechanic, but they also solve many. Nothing is immune to them. No more unkillable deathstars. They're such a minor evil compared to the woes of 7th Ed.
Really smite isn't a problem. 30 point characters that smite are a problem. The base cost for a smiting unit should be about 70-75. Anything under that shouldn't have "real smite"
Been playing with Marines against the new Nids. They can get a hideous amount of Smites of the board with Zoanthropes. My only way to play around it was to abuse their slow movement by sticking a Repulsor in their face with Psychic Fortress and Armour of Contempt. It simply has too much value if it hits a Marine or Primaris...
Sisters of Silence. They are the ultimate anti-smite bubblewrap. I know they cost a good bunch of points, but when what they are protecting are Custodes, it is worth it.
Don't see the problem personally, but I suspect Mortal Wounds will be given out like candy to get round the number of things that appear to have 2+ saves and high numbers of wounds where really its the main way for some armies to hurt them.
Suspect they would be better considered as normal would, with an APThat also works against invulnerable saves
So a Mortal Wound with AP-3 on say a 3+/4++ Hive Tyrant becomes a 6+/7++ save as opposed to an automatic wound.
Smite does not roll to hit, and inflicts Mortal Wounds. Thus it is relatively reliable, and ignores hit-mods. Cover does nothing, Invulnerable Saves do nothing, hell, attempting to engage in melee does nothing. Additionally, the all-or-nothing nature of casting and denial, combined with the need to exceed the attacker roll to deny, means that the most powerful attacks are those least likely to be denied.
Thus the solutions usually are more tailored. "Take Snipers" (great until you come across Gulliman and Razorbacks), "take an anti-psyker Stratagem" (which works on a solo clutch power like Warptime or da Jump, but doesn't scale versus Smitespam), or "run hordes of cheap bodies" (an option with relatively few counters, that also helps counter assaults and null-plasma). So the fact Smite is efficient at inflicting wounds regardless of Toughness, Saves or Hitmods means points-per-wound is the only relevant metric. Meaning Conscripts, Boyz, Brimstones, etc.
warhead01 wrote: I hadn't really used smite until my last game. Storm shield on dreads are super tough my best weapons bouncing off due to those. Smite helped but wasn't ever enough with only one weird boy. One of the local guys has complained about smite but more so about 30 point psyker spam. I think that's more so where the problem is.
They are interlinked. You can't have smite spam without cheap psykers and smite gives reason to bring multiple psykers.
True enough. I guess I was thinking about a comment above that didn't want smite to hurt vehicles as easily or at all.
As a thought about spam, just how much should a psyker cost then? Just how low of a cost opens up the abuse? I'd like to run 3 weird boys but haven played a game t a high enough points level to find the points for more than one.
The 60 points a weirdboy costs is about the minimum any psyker should cost, really. Maybe 50 points if a malus to casting is introduced for the current mega-cheap psykers.
Inquisitors are also BS/WS 3+ and no invulnerable save and only 4+sv, which makes them significantly worse than a Canoness.
Inquisitional psychic powers are also garbage, so you pretty much have to use them as smite-machines. At that point cost, they'd be okay for just that at 55, if they weren't so hugely undercut by Astropaths, Primaris Psykers, and Malefic Lords (who also happen to have access to some seriously potent powers outside of Smite).
Crimson wrote: When 8th edition rumours started coming in, and I heard Mortal Wounds would be a thing, I suspected they might be a problem; when I heard that the basic psychic power accessible by every psyker in the game would cause them, I knew they would be a problem. Mortal Wounds are just a bad mechanic, especially if not used super sparingly; they are completely disproportionately powerful against certain targets.
There is nothing particularly overpowered about smite when cast by a 100+ points Librarian, Farseer og Hive Tyrant. It is undercosted models like Primaris Psykers and Malefic Lords that cause the problems.
Fafnir wrote: Inquisitors are also BS/WS 3+ and no invulnerable save and only 4+sv, which makes them significantly worse than a Canoness.
Inquisitional psychic powers are also garbage, so you pretty much have to use them as smite-machines. At that point cost, they'd be okay for just that at 55, if they weren't so hugely undercut by Astropaths, Primaris Psykers, and Malefic Lords (who also happen to have access to some seriously potent powers outside of Smite).
Right. Just wanted to make sure people didn't want to nerf them too.
I just played a game with 5 Inquisitors (I am playing an Inquisitorial Conclave) and I think I cast smite with every one every turn because their other powers are so bad.
The more I think about it the more I am surprised there isn't a total rule of one with psyker powers including smite. I think AoS handles this a bit better even though there are quite a few spells that dish out mortal wounds. Would a rule of one clean this spam up? Are there any physical counters to smite spam?
warhead01 wrote: The more I think about it the more I am surprised there isn't a total rule of one with psyker powers including smite. I think AoS handles this a bit better even though there are quite a few spells that dish out mortal wounds. Would a rule of one clean this spam up? Are there any physical counters to smite spam?
Orks and Chaos lose their competitive edge, Grey Knights and Thousand Sons would be even more unplayable, and Magnus would be the only caster using Smite.
I am firmly on the side of "Smite is fine, but cheap characters with full Smite is the problem"
There is no sweeping change that can "fix" Smite spam without utterly neutering more expensive Psykers, or Psyker heavy armies that rely on having Smite because you cannot duplicate powers that other psykers in the same army may have already cast.
The correct solution is to: A) give cheaper Psykers "diet" Smite in the same way as Eldar Warlocks and many GK units or B) make cheapo Psykers with full Smite twice as expensive (specifically Malefic lords, etc)
Galef wrote:I am firmly on the side of "Smite is fine, but cheap characters with full Smite is the problem"
There is no sweeping change that can "fix" Smite spam without utterly neutering more expensive Psykers, or Psyker heavy armies that rely on having Smite because you cannot duplicate powers that other psykers in the same army may have already cast.
The correct solution is to:
A) give cheaper Psykers "diet" Smite in the same way as Eldar Warlocks and many GK units or
B) make cheapo Psykers with full Smite twice as expensive (specifically Malefic lords, etc)
What if there was a way to make Smite more dangerous to the cheap-o users?
MagicJuggler wrote:
You know what else is a good mechanic?
Not making units unhittable or untargetable in the first place.
A bigger issue is the lack of good spells to cast. Smite is simply a useful spell, vs gaze of the emporer which could be as low as 2", or terrifying visions that lower leadership on a unit that may or may not need to take a leadership test later that turn. Psychic barrier is awesome, but you cast it once then that's it for truly useful, go to spells. All you have left is smite. Heck, gaze doesn't even have the range of smite, it's really not reliable.
So maybe the problem is not smite, it's the fact that you only cast other spells once and half of the options are not that good.
Maybe chapter approved will give us new spells to replace smite with. That would be cool.
Galef wrote: I am firmly on the side of "Smite is fine, but cheap characters with full Smite is the problem"
There is no sweeping change that can "fix" Smite spam without utterly neutering more expensive Psykers, or Psyker heavy armies that rely on having Smite because you cannot duplicate powers that other psykers in the same army may have already cast.
The correct solution is to:
A) give cheaper Psykers "diet" Smite in the same way as Eldar Warlocks and many GK units or
B) make cheapo Psykers with full Smite twice as expensive (specifically Malefic lords, etc)
I've both evaded it and tanked it. Anyway, reliance on dealing Mortal Wounds is just that... reliance on a thing to happen. Smiting is not horrible but it's boring.
znelson wrote: As long as there are units/armies that part points for durability via T/Sv inexpensive smite spam is a problem.
As a game designer, providing expensive survivability and then selling a way around it for two pennies is just sloppy.
To be fair, it is cheap with 2 important limitations. A short range (one of the shortest) and no control over target (you have to target the closest unit). Being so short a range means players will bring those characters forward which makes exposing them easier. Not having control over targets makes manipulating their positioning easier.
Earth127 wrote: The main problem with smite isn't with smite itself: it is the existence of models far too underpiriced/overpowered.
That said there was a rumour that they were going to nerf consecutive smites in chapter approved and I hope that is true.
Having to roll equal to or over the previous roll for a successfully manifested psychic power and removing duplicates altogether would be a great idea.
Vaktathi wrote: Would a progressively more difficult cast value help?
First time it goes off on a 5, next time it goes off on a 6, third casting requires a 7, fourth an 8, etc.
Armies with two or three psykers will probably never have much of an issue, concentrating Smite against a big scary target is still powerful but more difficult, and the power remains useful. It's not something I've personally seen armies built around or abusing much around my neck of the woods.
Yeah, I suggested something along these line in a different thread.
Azuza001 wrote: A bigger issue is the lack of good spells to cast. Smite is simply a useful spell, vs gaze of the emporer which could be as low as 2", or terrifying visions that lower leadership on a unit that may or may not need to take a leadership test later that turn. Psychic barrier is awesome, but you cast it once then that's it for truly useful, go to spells. All you have left is smite. Heck, gaze doesn't even have the range of smite, it's really not reliable.
So maybe the problem is not smite, it's the fact that you only cast other spells once and half of the options are not that good.
Maybe chapter approved will give us new spells to replace smite with. That would be cool.
I was thinking the same thing before when I mentioned a rule of one. We'd need, or at least like more spells to choose from to keep things interesting. After playing AoS I had expected Psyker Powers to do more. I have not read any of the powers in any of the released codex books so I have no idea what is in there.
Aos spells and 40K powers are roughly aligned as effects, with the difference that AoS has some really big casters with theyr own spells (spells in AoS depend on the model, not on the faction) and those can be nasty.
My problem with Smite spam is that the only way to counter it is to have more psykers to deny it. Of course if you play a horde army you can put screens of Conscripts or Gaunts in front of your more valuable units but armies like Eldar or Space Marines don't really have any sort of counter to it besides just spamming even more psykers, which seems stupid to me. Having to spam even more of the same unit to counter a certain tactic is never good for game health.
Azuza001 wrote: A bigger issue is the lack of good spells to cast. Smite is simply a useful spell, vs gaze of the emporer which could be as low as 2", or terrifying visions that lower leadership on a unit that may or may not need to take a leadership test later that turn. Psychic barrier is awesome, but you cast it once then that's it for truly useful, go to spells. All you have left is smite. Heck, gaze doesn't even have the range of smite, it's really not reliable.
So maybe the problem is not smite, it's the fact that you only cast other spells once and half of the options are not that good.
Maybe chapter approved will give us new spells to replace smite with. That would be cool.
I was thinking the same thing before when I mentioned a rule of one. We'd need, or at least like more spells to choose from to keep things interesting. After playing AoS I had expected Psyker Powers to do more. I have not read any of the powers in any of the released codex books so I have no idea what is in there.
From a Death Guard player: DG codex ranges from awesome (Miasma, Blades of Putrefaction) to good (Putrescent Vitality) to situational (Curse of the Leper, Gift of Contagion) to crap (Plague Wind). I believe it's the same for most other codices out there.
Arachnofiend wrote: Love all these Guard players who aren't bothered by smite spam.
Heh, yeah. An attack that both autohits and autowounds is not that far off from a bolter round, except it's more expensive. And has a chance to kill the user. And it's more expensive pointswise.
What they should do is remove psychic focus all together.
First and foremost psykers should be able to manifest any power they know, it doesn't matter if it's been cast already by another psyker.
Second, powers should not stack with themselves for effects. So no piling on The Horror for a cumulative -5 to hit and leadership, you would have to target multiple units.
Third, each time you try to manifest the same power after the first (including smite) it's a -1 to your psychic test. So it jjst gets harder and harder to manifest the same power instead of flat out not allowed.
Now you prevent weird crazy stacking of buffs/debuffs.
You will see more variety of powers being cast.
You will see less spam of any given power and more variety in powers. Even the dirt cheap little psykers will be reduced in number because if all they know is smite then it will become near impossible to cast smite very quickly when thats all they are casting.
Martel732 wrote: No, don't remove psychic focus. Make it apply to smite, as well. Done. You get one smite. Done.
Thats dumb. It's as bad if not worse than 7th editions psychic batteries.
Some armies are meant to be psyker heavy. And they should be. Tzneetch deamons should be bringing pink horrors. But why would you ever bring more than 1 if only 1 can cast smite? What happenes to TSons when their sorcerers who only know smite are a part of every unit?
Gutting the psychic phase is not the answer. Making it scale appropriately is.
Lance845 wrote: What they should do is remove psychic focus all together.
First and foremost psykers should be able to manifest any power they know, it doesn't matter if it's been cast already by another psyker.
Second, powers should not stack with themselves for effects. So no piling on The Horror for a cumulative -5 to hit and leadership, you would have to target multiple units.
Third, each time you try to manifest the same power after the first (including smite) it's a -1 to your psychic test. So it jjst gets harder and harder to manifest the same power instead of flat out not allowed.
Now you prevent weird crazy stacking of buffs/debuffs.
You will see more variety of powers being cast.
You will see less spam of any given power and more variety in powers. Even the dirt cheap little psykers will be reduced in number because if all they know is smite then it will become near impossible to cast smite very quickly when thats all they are casting.
This, combined with the very very cheap psykers having a "baby smite" could fix the psychic problems all together. Bot for the ones that are OP, and the ones that suffer more from it like Thousand Sons.
Spartacus wrote: Every game mechanic and unit can be balanced by points
Thats's not true. How are you going to balance area buffs with points? How much should a re-roll to-hit cost if it can be avaliable to any unit? Besides, how can you balance smite spam if it's only good against elite armies?
If the problem lies within cheap mini-psychers that cost ~30 pts, the best solution is to make them peril on a 1.
Martel732 wrote: No, don't remove psychic focus. Make it apply to smite, as well. Done. You get one smite. Done.
Thats dumb. It's as bad if not worse than 7th editions psychic batteries.
Some armies are meant to be psyker heavy. And they should be. Tzneetch deamons should be bringing pink horrors. But why would you ever bring more than 1 if only 1 can cast smite? What happenes to TSons when their sorcerers who only know smite are a part of every unit?
Gutting the psychic phase is not the answer. Making it scale appropriately is.
I would argue that armies should not be designed around spamming a poorly designed pyschic power in order to do all their damage. A part of this is certainly being limited to Index and BRB abilities rather than having a codex (hopefully CA will fix some of these issues), but Tzeentch demons should have more to them than just Smite spam, and TSons should still be a SM/CSM army, just with more psychic support than usual.
Allowing armies to just spam all their powers willy nilly is certainly not the answer. Chaos does not need to be casting a dozen warp times a turn on their Malefic Lord Spam. Nids do not need to be Catalysting every unit in their list every turn.
The mortal wound mechanic it's definitely not that bad IMHO, the only problem are the undercosted malefic/primaris.
BTW another super easy solution would be adding a fourth basic stratagem... 1cp: on a 2+ counter a smite
Marfuzzo wrote: The mortal wound mechanic it's definitely not that bad IMHO, the only problem are the undercosted malefic/primaris.
I would actually argue the opposite. Primaris Psykers are very reasonably costed, given that they have no tricks or other abilities - all they do is try to cast one psychic power per turn.
(Compared with casters who cast multiple powers, have auras, have rerolls, have better stats, have invulnerable saves etc.)
The only issue is that Smite is apparently too strong a power when spammed.
Smite is just too good to be a spammable power that everyone gets. It leads to balance problems and it is boring because it is just better than most other powers so those don't ever get even used. Such ubiquitous basic power should not deal mortal wounds.
Crimson wrote: Smite is just too good to be a spammable power that everyone gets. It leads to balance problems and it is boring because it is just better than most other powers so those don't ever get even used. Such ubiquitous basic power should not deal mortal wounds.
I don't think it dealing mortal wounds is the problem.
The problem is that it's probably the most efficient source of mortal wounds.
You would expect it to be the opposite - with smite being either unreliable or only doing 1 mortal wound each time (maybe d3 on a 10+ or something). As it stands though, virtually all the once-per-turn powers are actually worse at dealing mortal wounds than Smite.
For example, let's compare Smite and Gaze of the Emperor.
- Gaze of the Emperor is cast on a 6+ (so it's already harder to cast than Smite).
- Gaze requires you to extend a line 2d6" from the Psyker (so not only is the distance completely unreliable, but even on the best roll possible you have to be 6" closer than you would for Smite)
- Gaze hits friendly models (so if you try to screen your Psyker, you're probably going to kill your own models in the process)
- Gaze only hits models touched by that line (and, since the average length of the line is 7", you're really going to struggle to hit many models at all)
- Of those few models hit, they only suffer a Mortal Wound on a 4+
Or you could just Smite them - which is easier to cast, far more reliable, doesn't hit friendly models and can be cast at a much greater distance.
Anyway, one of these powers is limited to one casting per turn, apparently for reasons of balance. And it's not Smite.
if Smite worked like Gaze of the Emperor, I don't think anyone would complain if it was spammed.
I don't think it dealing mortal wounds is the problem.
It kind of is for basic power that should be usable against variety of targets. MWs are disproportionately powerful against expensive elite stuff and pretty meh against cheap trash.
The problem is that it's probably the most efficient source of mortal wounds.
Infantryman wrote: Are things like artillery fire against these psykers not a viable counter?
M.
Can't target Characters unless they're the closest model, applies to indirect fire weapons like artillery as well, and with no blast templates you can't even attempt to fudge it that way.
Pandabeer wrote: From a Death Guard player: DG codex ranges from awesome (Miasma, Blades of Putrefaction) to good (Putrescent Vitality) to situational (Curse of the Leper, Gift of Contagion) to crap (Plague Wind). I believe it's the same for most other codices out there.
Mostly agree with this, except Plague Wind against max ork mobs, gaunt swarms or conscript blocks of 50 is downright amazing considering how easy it is to cast. Not OP, but certainly a auto-take against these armies.
Infantryman wrote: Are things like artillery fire against these psykers not a viable counter?
M.
Won't be viable unless the psyker is the closest unit to the firing artillery, which if that happens the player did something stupidly wrong. Are there artillery in the game that can ignore this? (genuine question)
Tyranid biovores can mess up psykers hiding behind screens pretty well. When their attacks miss they drop spore mines near the target that can move on their next turn and bomb anything within range.
Marines get the 3 vindicator stratagems that can kill psykers too, but it’s a lot of points and firepower in one basket.
Smite was meant to be the answer to 2++ rerollable deathstars. (which is no longer really a thing in 8th, barring a few units ... Magnus lol)
Back before 8th launched, it was very openly suggested via FB and warhammer community that sources of mortal wounds would be rare to compensate for the auto wounds that they would cause.
Martel732 wrote: No, don't remove psychic focus. Make it apply to smite, as well. Done. You get one smite. Done.
Thats dumb. It's as bad if not worse than 7th editions psychic batteries.
Some armies are meant to be psyker heavy. And they should be. Tzneetch deamons should be bringing pink horrors. But why would you ever bring more than 1 if only 1 can cast smite? What happenes to TSons when their sorcerers who only know smite are a part of every unit?
Gutting the psychic phase is not the answer. Making it scale appropriately is.
I would argue that armies should not be designed around spamming a poorly designed pyschic power in order to do all their damage. A part of this is certainly being limited to Index and BRB abilities rather than having a codex (hopefully CA will fix some of these issues), but Tzeentch demons should have more to them than just Smite spam, and TSons should still be a SM/CSM army, just with more psychic support than usual.
Allowing armies to just spam all their powers willy nilly is certainly not the answer. Chaos does not need to be casting a dozen warp times a turn on their Malefic Lord Spam. Nids do not need to be Catalysting every unit in their list every turn.
My suggestion would not allow for "dozens of warp times". or the spamming of a single power.
Again, each time after the first the warp charge cost increases by 1. (or a -1 to your roll... the same thing). 6+ to smite. 7+ on the second smite. 8+ on the 3rd. Not only does it become harder and harder to make it work, by the end it also causes a peril. It would force players to use more variety in powers to keep the casting reliable but also make it so all those powers are usable more than once. The dirt cheap smite only psykers would only be so good because they end up screwing themselves by making their only power nigh impossible to cast.
NurglesR0T wrote: Smite was meant to be the answer to 2++ rerollable deathstars. (which is no longer really a thing in 8th, barring a few units ... Magnus lol)
Back before 8th launched, it was very openly suggested via FB and warhammer community that sources of mortal wounds would be rare to compensate for the auto wounds that they would cause.
Except 0-X choices aren't a thing anymore, so if I have one I have as many as I can fit in whatever limit I've been imposed.
I think Smite is a good thing for the game; it's a source of nearly unavoidable damage. That means if something's really tough or "just about" dead, a Smite can help finish it off. That's huge against some things that go from 0 to busted, and helps keep the game honest by making sure that super-elite, super-deadly, super-resilient forces don't get the upper hand.
I would agree that the main reason Smite *can* be a problem, even though it rarely is a problem, is because of there being a few units that are far too inexpensive for the Smites they can throw. The ability to Smite needs to have an internal points cost "Access to Smite = 75 points" or something like that. Smite-lite is totally fine from the sounds of it, so things below that 75 point threshold, like Primaris Psykers and Malefic Lords should only have the "deal 1 damage" Smites, Alternatively, Smites for such small models should, perhaps, come at a difficulty increase, so that they have a harder time getting the Smites off in the first place.
Generally, this isn't an issue in the casual scene, and only comes up in tournaments from what I've seen. It's not overly strong yet either, as it's not totally taking over tourney's, however it would be helpful to nip this in the bud as it were.
Gotta say I agree with the statement that Smite isn't the problem here. Nobody's complaining about smite on Chaos Sorcerers, Librarians, Inquisitors and the like. It's the odd things, Astropaths, Primaris Psykers and Maelific Lords that are the problem and that problem is simply points. Back in 7th Primaris Psykers were 50pt, or 75pt if you upgraded to L2. I think around here is where the bar should be set for Psykers. No psyker should be 30pt, no matter how terrible their stats are.
Fhanados wrote: Gotta say I agree with the statement that Smite isn't the problem here. Nobody's complaining about smite on Chaos Sorcerers, Librarians, Inquisitors and the like. It's the odd things, Astropaths, Primaris Psykers and Maelific Lords that are the problem and that problem is simply points. Back in 7th Primaris Psykers were 50pt, or 75pt if you upgraded to L2. I think around here is where the bar should be set for Psykers. No psyker should be 30pt, no matter how terrible their stats are.
Well, you could up both of those to around 70pts each and let them cast 2 powers per turn.
You know, as more things come out and Chapter Approved's come out yearly..
I'd like to see more options for baseline abilities that aren't smite, a general choice of "How do you want your caster to deal with things".
Maybe from a few general options you'd have aside from smite. Along with that idea that weaker, cheaper casters get less stronger variants because there is a difference between like someone say Ahriman and a minor psyker.
Smite really makes me wish that psyker mastery levels were still a thing. An easy fix would be to cast a power a psyker rolls dice equal to its mastery level. Then make the super cheap psykers ML 1, so they roll 1 dice. Smite going off on a 5+ on a single dice would be fine. Then your 40 point psykers would average D3 mortal wounds per 120 points spent. Doing that would also have made GK easier to fix, just make them 1 mastery level per 5 models in the squad.
Then if you think that weaker models should be able to cast better do something like make smite Cast Value 4 -deals 1 mortal wound, D3 mortal wounds if more than 5, D6 if more than 10
You do know that almost all of the GK smite abilities only do 1 mortal wound to non-daemon models (and that's regardless of the die roll)?
It's hard enough being a GK player. At least make a unit equal to 2 dice(5 men costs at least 105points). You can't take units above 10 men so by your method the best you could get would be 2 dice for a minimum of 210 points.
Smite should be 6 to roll. I like the already proposed idea of increasing difficulty. First D3 smite is 6, for every additional D3 smite +1 will be added to the target number. First smite is 6, next is 7, next is 8, etc. This will not hurt baby smites, but put an end to cheap psyker smite spam.
p5freak wrote: Smite should be 6 to roll. I like the already proposed idea of increasing difficulty. First D3 smite is 6, for every additional D3 smite +1 will be added to the target number. First smite is 6, next is 7, next is 8, etc. This will not hurt baby smites, but put an end to cheap psyker smite spam.
Is there a cap on that? If a Weird boy rolls a 11 and has +4 from being near enough Ork boys, does that make it 9+D3?
If the problem is limited to three models, why are we trying to fix smite and not those three models?
Give malific lords, primaris psykers and astropaths weaker smites, and we're done.
The next cheapest spammable smiters are inquisitors and weird boyz, with one simply not being a good model overall and the other exploding sooner or later, unless supported by another 75 point character.
30 pt psychers usually cast smite on a 1d6. Means they basically pay ~45 pts per mortal wound.
If they target something like a vehicle that costs ~100 pts and has 10 wounds and 3+ armor.
A devastator with lazcannon costs 38 pts. Has easy access to re-rolls and even without them inflicts an average of 1.94 wounds - that's ~19.6 pts per wound. Besides, it's not limited to closest target and has 48 range instead of 18.
Things start to change somewhat when the target gets invul saves, is harder to hit or is a unit of multiple expensive 1-w models. But LC are not ideal vs this anywayz. There are a ton of other factors like LC getting easy access to buffs that improve it's performance and smites being able to hit targets in CC (but it's not such a big deal now). Another thing is platforms. But anywayz.
I also think GW under-estimated the power of smite, and therefore didn't account for it properly in some units' point cost.
Increasing the cost of malefic lords, primaris psykers and astropaths would go a long way towards fixing the smite spam problem.
No one spams farseers or librarians just to cast smite, which means there isn't necessarily a problem with the spell itself.
Jidmah wrote: Give malific lords, primaris psykers and astropaths weaker smites, and we're done.
And Primaris Psykers are never taken again. Boy, what a fantastic fix.
Yep, because there is totally no middle ground between 18" d3/d6 and "can't smite, ever".
We've certainly seen no evidence of middle ground from the 'nerf everything related to imperial guard' crowd.
So, you think 40 point smites are fine and are in no need of tuning down?
Yes, actually. I am not sure what nightmare armies people are playing, but I see 4 or 5 Malefic Lords or Primaris Psykers in most tournament winning lists.
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
I think the best way to nerf smite is to have every army access to powerful psychic defense. Necron pariahs with the Psychic Abomination rule, Chaos dark mechanicum artifice that causes a psyker to automatically suffer perils if it is targeted by a power, that sort of thing.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: You do know that almost all of the GK smite abilities only do 1 mortal wound to non-daemon models (and that's regardless of the die roll)?
It's hard enough being a GK player. At least make a unit equal to 2 dice(5 men costs at least 105points). You can't take units above 10 men so by your method the best you could get would be 2 dice for a minimum of 210 points.
Yes but in my method you would not need them to be nerfed to 1 wound because they would be capped by dice. So a 10 man squad could do D3 wounds or D6 wounds, where as a 5 man would only do 1 wound ~50% of the time. Characters and Libbies could also be made higher level. I think overall GK would be better off, with my suggested change.
Jidmah wrote: Give malific lords, primaris psykers and astropaths weaker smites, and we're done.
And Primaris Psykers are never taken again. Boy, what a fantastic fix.
Yep, because there is totally no middle ground between 18" d3/d6 and "can't smite, ever".
We've certainly seen no evidence of middle ground from the 'nerf everything related to imperial guard' crowd.
So, you think 40 point smites are fine and are in no need of tuning down?
Yes, actually. I am not sure what nightmare armies people are playing, but I see 4 or 5 Malefic Lords or Primaris Psykers in most tournament winning lists.
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
I think the best way to nerf smite is to have every army access to powerful psychic defense. Necron pariahs with the Psychic Abomination rule, Chaos dark mechanicum artifice that causes a psyker to automatically suffer perils if it is targeted by a power, that sort of thing.
I don't like that idea at all, as it makes every army have auto-take units as a hard counter to psykers. Better to fix the power, otherwise those counters just make all psykers unusable.
So basically, you see two units constantly taken which tend to be the problem.. And the idea is to now produce counters, which not only counter mass smite spam, but counter people who take one or two psykers rather then dealing with the units that CAN smite spam?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yes, actually. I am not sure what nightmare armies people are playing, but I see 4 or 5 Malefic Lords or Primaris Psykers in most tournament winning lists.
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
I think the best way to nerf smite is to have every army access to powerful psychic defense. Necron pariahs with the Psychic Abomination rule, Chaos dark mechanicum artifice that causes a psyker to automatically suffer perils if it is targeted by a power, that sort of thing.
So, you'd rather render all of the three dozen perfectly fine smiters useless than change the two that are actually a problem?
Jidmah wrote: Give malific lords, primaris psykers and astropaths weaker smites, and we're done.
And Primaris Psykers are never taken again. Boy, what a fantastic fix.
Yep, because there is totally no middle ground between 18" d3/d6 and "can't smite, ever".
We've certainly seen no evidence of middle ground from the 'nerf everything related to imperial guard' crowd.
So, you think 40 point smites are fine and are in no need of tuning down?
Yes, actually. I am not sure what nightmare armies people are playing, but I see 4 or 5 Malefic Lords or Primaris Psykers in most tournament winning lists.
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
I think the best way to nerf smite is to have every army access to powerful psychic defense. Necron pariahs with the Psychic Abomination rule, Chaos dark mechanicum artifice that causes a psyker to automatically suffer perils if it is targeted by a power, that sort of thing.
So you see a spam of psykers in the winning tournament lists, and you decide that... it means that cheap-psyker and smite spam is ok? And the problem is lack of defenses?
Theres enough psychic defenses when the enemy has 1-3 psykers that cast others powers that aren't Smite. The problem is just with smite-spam.
Fix the damm smite-spammers, and stop reflecting it with "Omg you just want to nerf Imperial Guard AGAIN!". Malefic Lords are even a bigger problem that Primaris Psykers. But that doesn't mean they aren't both a problem.
Yes, actually. I am not sure what nightmare armies people are playing, but I see 4 or 5 Malefic Lords or Primaris Psykers in most tournament winning lists.
That right there, is the problem summed up. If you bring 4-5 hive tyrants, farseers, librarians, sorcerers or demon princes, then you are paying a LOT of points for those smites.
On the other hand, if you are playing chaos or imperium soup, then you have a source of really cheap standard smite in the Malefic Lords and Primaris Psykers. The solution is very straightforward: Reduce the smite of Malefic Lords and Primaris Psykers to a single mortal wound, or up their points to about sixty, which is slightly less than a weirdboy
Someone already mentioned Guard players not bothered about smite spam (blob is good defense) but I think there's more to it.
To me the smite problem is exactly the same the lasgun problem. It's only problem because it's new. Suggesting further uses of smite should be more dangerous or difficult to cast is the same as suggesting that after your 4th lasgun, every consecutive one in a unit should decrease the unit's accuracy, or give the model a chance of a power malfunction or something. It is what it is and there are ways to beat it. People no linger complain about Guard Lasgun blob spam because there are ways around it. Seems to me that people just don't like the way around beating smite (blob/deny/snipe). It's like all those people who flip the table because you can steal first turn. If your army is based on one specialised specific tactic or unit and crumbles without it then build a better army.
It's the nature of the game that, as a new edition comes out lots of rules will be updated and changed. Because of this people who have built a "one plan army" can feel seen off. Understandable.
So adapt.
Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.
And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.
spoonlamp wrote: Someone already mentioned Guard players not bothered about smite spam (blob is good defense) but I think there's more to it.
To me the smite problem is exactly the same the lasgun problem. It's only problem because it's new. Suggesting further uses of smite should be more dangerous or difficult to cast is the same as suggesting that after your 4th lasgun, every consecutive one in a unit should decrease the unit's accuracy, or give the model a chance of a power malfunction or something. It is what it is and there are ways to beat it. People no linger complain about Guard Lasgun blob spam because there are ways around it. Seems to me that people just don't like the way around beating smite (blob/deny/snipe). It's like all those people who flip the table because you can steal first turn. If your army is based on one specialised specific tactic or unit and crumbles without it then build a better army.
It's the nature of the game that, as a new edition comes out lots of rules will be updated and changed. Because of this people who have built a "one plan army" can feel seen off. Understandable.
So adapt.
I am curious as to what you think the counter-play would be for, say, a pure Dark Eldar force would be against 7-9 psychers? Or Tau, or Necrons. Would love to know.
Galas wrote:Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.
And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.
Darsath wrote:
spoonlamp wrote: Someone already mentioned Guard players not bothered about smite spam (blob is good defense) but I think there's more to it.
To me the smite problem is exactly the same the lasgun problem. It's only problem because it's new. Suggesting further uses of smite should be more dangerous or difficult to cast is the same as suggesting that after your 4th lasgun, every consecutive one in a unit should decrease the unit's accuracy, or give the model a chance of a power malfunction or something. It is what it is and there are ways to beat it. People no linger complain about Guard Lasgun blob spam because there are ways around it. Seems to me that people just don't like the way around beating smite (blob/deny/snipe). It's like all those people who flip the table because you can steal first turn. If your army is based on one specialised specific tactic or unit and crumbles without it then build a better army.
It's the nature of the game that, as a new edition comes out lots of rules will be updated and changed. Because of this people who have built a "one plan army" can feel seen off. Understandable.
So adapt.
I am curious as to what you think the counter-play would be for, say, a pure Dark Eldar force would be against 7-9 psychers? Or Tau, or Necrons. Would love to know.
Add psychic defense and then bring them in your armies.
If we are going to change the rules, then the best rules change in this situation is to add psychic defense to armies that lack it.
You can completely shut down those 5-7 smites by having a Culexus the closest model or anywhere nearby, for 1/3rd the price. 3 Culexus could completely obviate those psyker's smites and eventually outright kill them. That sort of psychic defense on everyone should be accessible.
And no, it won't hurt armies with fewer psykers as badly because they are often doing things with those psykers other than smite. All a Culexus does when you're, say, buffing a friendly unit, or using another targeted power that can pick targets, or the like is impose a -2 on the casting roll, which is hardly "shutting down."
But culexus assassins hard-counter smite spam, specifically because the target is not controlled, they can be the closest model to the psykers without fear because of their Etherium, and smite simply is incapable of harming them, so it fizzles.
Galas wrote:Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.
And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.
Darsath wrote:
spoonlamp wrote: Someone already mentioned Guard players not bothered about smite spam (blob is good defense) but I think there's more to it.
To me the smite problem is exactly the same the lasgun problem. It's only problem because it's new. Suggesting further uses of smite should be more dangerous or difficult to cast is the same as suggesting that after your 4th lasgun, every consecutive one in a unit should decrease the unit's accuracy, or give the model a chance of a power malfunction or something. It is what it is and there are ways to beat it. People no linger complain about Guard Lasgun blob spam because there are ways around it. Seems to me that people just don't like the way around beating smite (blob/deny/snipe). It's like all those people who flip the table because you can steal first turn. If your army is based on one specialised specific tactic or unit and crumbles without it then build a better army.
It's the nature of the game that, as a new edition comes out lots of rules will be updated and changed. Because of this people who have built a "one plan army" can feel seen off. Understandable.
So adapt.
I am curious as to what you think the counter-play would be for, say, a pure Dark Eldar force would be against 7-9 psychers? Or Tau, or Necrons. Would love to know.
Add psychic defense and then bring them in your armies.
If we are going to change the rules, then the best rules change in this situation is to add psychic defense to armies that lack it.
You can completely shut down those 5-7 smites by having a Culexus the closest model or anywhere nearby, for 1/3rd the price. 3 Culexus could completely obviate those psyker's smites and eventually outright kill them. That sort of psychic defense on everyone should be accessible.
And no, it won't hurt armies with fewer psykers as badly because they are often doing things with those psykers other than smite. All a Culexus does when you're, say, buffing a friendly unit, or using another targeted power that can pick targets, or the like is impose a -2 on the casting roll, which is hardly "shutting down."
But culexus assassins hard-counter smite spam, specifically because the target is not controlled, they can be the closest model to the psykers without fear because of their Etherium, and smite simply is incapable of harming them, so it fizzles.
Except if your buffs are already a CA 7, it pretty much hard counters those by taking them to a CA 9 (drops to a 27% chance to get the power off, from 58%), further if your opponent has a psyker to deny with that makes it even worse. Most powers seem to be CA 6 or 7 so a -2 is a pretty big debuff Also any solution where it becomes, your army must take x specific unit to compete is a bad fix. It ends up where all competitive armies look the same. Weakening smite for cheap psykers is a much better fix.
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.
Your culexus will be burned by flamethrowers, they ignore the BS/WS 6 and hit automatically. Orks will simply throw 120 CC attacks at him and kill him. Eldar with dark reapers also ignore his BS/WS 6 skill and hit on 3. And btw one culexus is -1 CP, no one with an elite army wants to do that.
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.
aside from the fact that Smite can only hit the closest target and you control what that is and you know the movement capabilities of the psykers.
As for fitting 14 Primaris HQ psykers in 2kpts...not if you're playing by the Matched Play detachment limits and want anything else relevant in the army. And if that's what they're spamming, then they're not taking much of the stuff thats largely making IG powerful, and are playing a relatively close range gimmick army. I dont believe we've seen such an army do particularly well consistetly, there's a good number of hardcounters to a list like that.
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.
aside from the fact that Smite can only hit the closest target and you control what that is and you know the movement capabilities of the psykers.
As for fitting 14 Primaris HQ psykers in 2kpts...not if you're playing by the Matched Play detachment limits and want anything else relevant in the army. And if that's what they're spamming, then they're not taking much of the stuff thats largely making IG powerful, and are playing a relatively close range gimmick army. I dont believe we've seen such an army do particularly well consistetly, there's a good number of hardcounters to a list like that.
Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units. And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers, and that 18" is short range. Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.
aside from the fact that Smite can only hit the closest target and you control what that is and you know the movement capabilities of the psykers.
As for fitting 14 Primaris HQ psykers in 2kpts...not if you're playing by the Matched Play detachment limits and want anything else relevant in the army. And if that's what they're spamming, then they're not taking much of the stuff thats largely making IG powerful, and are playing a relatively close range gimmick army. I dont believe we've seen such an army do particularly well consistetly, there's a good number of hardcounters to a list like that.
Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units. And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers, and that 18" is short range. Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?
Darsath wrote: Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units. And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers, and that 18" is short range. Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?
It's a bit of a strawman, but it's hardly going to the hall of fame.
His point about the variables you have available to you is the real point though. You know the movement of the psykers, you know the range of their power, and you know the targeting limitations of the power, which you can manipulate to your advantage.
In order for this hypothesized psyker rush to occur, the AM player has to be moving a fairly significant bubble screen up as well, otherwise, those psykers will die a fairly quick and ignoble death.
I mean, we could get in to all kinds of hypothetical scenarios on this, but ultimately, you're the one deciding which units in your army are getting hit with Smite. I'd probably just feed him Horrors and Cultists until I felt I needed to deal with them. I guess I'm just not seeing the magic here, I mean to pull off the 14 psyker Primaris rush super-sayan annihilation move your opponent would be running at least 3-4 Supreme Command detachments, so yes, it could be done relatively easily, for probably less than a 1000 points. Assuming you have the bubble screen and the Commissar up there to give them cover, at least one will suffer perils each turn, which won't be a problem unless they're within 6" of the Commissar, in which case he will kill them. But according to some very upset AM players, nobody will be using Commissars anymore, so that's probably not a concern.
Of course armies with chaff and hordes don't have a problem with Psyker and Smite spam. And the funny thing is that the armies with the most tools to protec themselves agaisn't Smite spam and MW spam are the ones that can do those on the first place: Imperial Guard, Chaos Soup, Orks.
The problem is armies like Grey Knights, forces like Custodes, Space Marines heavy armies, etc... those have literally 0 ways to counter those cheap psyker spam.
Really guys, Chaos Soup spamming ML is in all the TOP5 of every tournament out there and you are saying basically to "git gud"?
Darsath wrote: Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units. And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers, and that 18" is short range. Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?
It's a bit of a strawman, but it's hardly going to the hall of fame.
His point about the variables you have available to you is the real point though. You know the movement of the psykers, you know the range of their power, and you know the targeting limitations of the power, which you can manipulate to your advantage.
In order for this hypothesized psyker rush to occur, the AM player has to be moving a fairly significant bubble screen up as well, otherwise, those psykers will die a fairly quick and ignoble death.
I mean, we could get in to all kinds of hypothetical scenarios on this, but ultimately, you're the one deciding which units in your army are getting hit with Smite. I'd probably just feed him Horrors and Cultists until I felt I needed to deal with them. I guess I'm just not seeing the magic here, I mean to pull off the 14 psyker Primaris rush super-sayan annihilation move your opponent would be running at least 3-4 Supreme Command detachments, so yes, it could be done relatively easily, for probably less than a 1000 points. Assuming you have the bubble screen and the Commissar up there to give them cover, at least one will suffer perils each turn, which won't be a problem unless they're within 6" of the Commissar, in which case he will kill them. But according to some very upset AM players, nobody will be using Commissars anymore, so that's probably not a concern.
2 Supreme Commands + 1 Brigade is 15 HQ choices, so pretty easy to get to those 14 psykers if you want to. The same is true for Malefic lords in chaos. now you probably won't run that many but 8-10 is not unreasonable. SO if you have 12(for easy math), you are looking at 10 successful casts of smite, which typically will amount to 1D6 + 9D3 mortal wounds or 21.5 mortal wounds for 480 points. Are there ways to play around this for a turn. Sure you can deny a few, put a chump unit or 2 in the path, snipe a few. But it is hardly easy to do given the character rules and mobility of the psykers mitigating some of the ability to play around them.
Galas wrote: Of course armies with chaff and hordes don't have a problem with Psyker and Smite spam. And the funny thing is that the armies with the most tools to protec themselves agaisn't Smite spam and MW spam are the ones that can do those on the first place: Imperial Guard, Chaos Soup, Orks.
The problem is armies like Grey Knights, forces like Custodes, Space Marines heavy armies, etc... those have literally 0 ways to counter those cheap psyker spam.
Really guys, Chaos Soup spamming ML is in all the TOP5 of every tournament out there and you are saying basically to "git gud"?
I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.
Galas wrote: Of course armies with chaff and hordes don't have a problem with Psyker and Smite spam. And the funny thing is that the armies with the most tools to protec themselves agaisn't Smite spam and MW spam are the ones that can do those on the first place: Imperial Guard, Chaos Soup, Orks.
The problem is armies like Grey Knights, forces like Custodes, Space Marines heavy armies, etc... those have literally 0 ways to counter those cheap psyker spam.
Really guys, Chaos Soup spamming ML is in all the TOP5 of every tournament out there and you are saying basically to "git gud"?
This is so true. As an Ork player I have have had some succes with smite-spamming by running six weirdboyz.
And Weirdboyz are 62 points. If they were 40 or 30 points they would be really broken rather than just really good. Conversely, if Primaris Psykers and Malefic Lords also were 62 points per model, then people would still run them, they would just not be as easily spammable.
That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).
You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.
aside from the fact that Smite can only hit the closest target and you control what that is and you know the movement capabilities of the psykers.
As for fitting 14 Primaris HQ psykers in 2kpts...not if you're playing by the Matched Play detachment limits and want anything else relevant in the army. And if that's what they're spamming, then they're not taking much of the stuff thats largely making IG powerful, and are playing a relatively close range gimmick army. I dont believe we've seen such an army do particularly well consistetly, there's a good number of hardcounters to a list like that.
Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units.
I acknowledge that such is possible, but if youre limited to three detachments, and are taking 14 psykers, how are you arranging that such that you can spam all those psykers and still have slots for everythung else you want to take? Those HQ detachments arent letting you bring Manticores or Conscripts or masses of guardsmen or the like, and if youre dumping primaris psykers into all your HQ slots, youve got none left for Orders HQ's, Tank Commanders, etc.
And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers
The point was that the strength of the IG army is not in Primaris psykers. When people are talking about counter-IG tactics, its generally along the lines of dealing with infantry screens, armor and artillery, not Smite Spam.
and that 18" is short range.
it is when those units have to hide behind other units to avoid being attacked, especially in an army replete with weapons that can attack across the table...or in fact multiple tables...
18" range weapons arent typically considered "long range", especially in an IG army.
Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?
Are 14 Primaris Psyker armies consistently dominating events? No, not that I can see. That was my point. They generally seem to be artillery heavy armies, not Smite spam with double digits of such psykers. They appear to have had a success or two, but are going to be heavily matchup dependent, and dont appear to consistently be good "all comers" armies thus far.
Hardcounters are anything not worth using Smite on (e.g. such as basic infantry, a Green Tide may not be great against most other armies, but Smite Spam is fairly impotent against it, Cultists will do the job, same with Guardsmen or Gaunts or empty rhinos and whatnot) and keeping literally anything in front of the stuff you dont want Smited, Culexus assassins, Hive Fleet Kronos, etc.
His point about the variables you have available to you is the real point though. You know the movement of the psykers, you know the range of their power, and you know the targeting limitations of the power, which you can manipulate to your advantage.
In order for this hypothesized psyker rush to occur, the AM player has to be moving a fairly significant bubble screen up as well, otherwise, those psykers will die a fairly quick and ignoble death.
I mean, we could get in to all kinds of hypothetical scenarios on this, but ultimately, you're the one deciding which units in your army are getting hit with Smite.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.
This is great in theory for shooting armies and armies with chaff units available - or, in other words, armies that care little about Smite. But what about armies that are actually suffering from Smite Spam - namely elite close combat armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?
These armies have to get into assault to do real damage. Getting into assault means you are either the closest unit to the enemy, or close enough that you can’t avoid your opponent manoeuvring to make you the closest. This is particularly problematic if your opponent is smart enough to concentrate his Smite Spam around the other units you really need to kill - like a Shadowsword or an artillery parking lot. Something that your assault heavy hitters really need to engage quickly and neutralise if you’re going to have a chance to win. Putting half a dozen Primaris Psykers 12” away from a Shadowsword with a smattering of infantry in the gap effectively shuts down an elite combat army.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.
This is great in theory for shooting armies and armies with chaff units available - or, in other words, armies that care little about Smite. But what about armies that are actually suffering from Smite Spam - namely elite close combat armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?
These armies have to get into assault to do real damage. Getting into assault means you are either the closest unit to the enemy, or close enough that you can’t avoid your opponent manoeuvring to make you the closest. This is particularly problematic if your opponent is smart enough to concentrate his Smite Spam around the other units you really need to kill - like a Shadowsword or an artillery parking lot. Something that your assault heavy hitters really need to engage quickly and neutralise if you’re going to have a chance to win. Putting half a dozen Primaris Psykers 12” away from a Shadowsword with a smattering of infantry in the gap effectively shuts down an elite combat army.
I would think that with the Shadowsord, the Psykers would be superfluous
(tbh, the Shadowsword needs some toning down or a price bump).
You'd have the exact same issue with any army sporting lots of multi-damage weapons. You don't need Smite Spam to wipe a GK army or Custodes. Lots of armies will do it from across the table and without needing to play shennanigans with psychic powers and characters. Any army sporting lots of plasma or autocannons, Russ or Baneblade or Artillery companies, Eldar Fire Prism squadrons, etc ad nauseum. There's all sorts of things that mulch melee oriented low model count heavy infantry armies, they've historically been amongst the hardest to play except in editions where they allowed weird gimmicks with wound allocation.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.
This is great in theory for shooting armies and armies with chaff units available - or, in other words, armies that care little about Smite. But what about armies that are actually suffering from Smite Spam - namely elite close combat armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?
These armies have to get into assault to do real damage. Getting into assault means you are either the closest unit to the enemy, or close enough that you can’t avoid your opponent manoeuvring to make you the closest. This is particularly problematic if your opponent is smart enough to concentrate his Smite Spam around the other units you really need to kill - like a Shadowsword or an artillery parking lot. Something that your assault heavy hitters really need to engage quickly and neutralise if you’re going to have a chance to win. Putting half a dozen Primaris Psykers 12” away from a Shadowsword with a smattering of infantry in the gap effectively shuts down an elite combat army.
I would think that with the Shadowsord, the Psykers would be superfluous
(tbh, the Shadowsword needs some toning down or a price bump).
You'd have the exact same issue with any army sporting lots of multi-damage weapons. You don't need Smite Spam to wipe a GK army or Custodes. Lots of armies will do it from across the table and without needing to play shennanigans with psychic powers and characters. Any army sporting lots of plasma or autocannons, Russ or Baneblade or Artillery companies, Eldar Fire Prism squadrons, etc ad nauseum. There's all sorts of things that mulch melee oriented low model count heavy infantry armies, they've historically been amongst the hardest to play except in editions where they allowed weird gimmicks with wound allocation.
Do the math and tell us how long it takes plasma and autocannons to kill a Custodes unit with 4-5 3++'s vs. the 6 Primaris Psykers. Cause the psykers are going to do it faster and cheaper.
I play mostly elite assault armies. They can survive getting across the board except all but the heaviest artillery spam lists. It's when they get mortal wounds blitzed that they drop like a sack of dirt.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.
This is great in theory for shooting armies and armies with chaff units available - or, in other words, armies that care little about Smite. But what about armies that are actually suffering from Smite Spam - namely elite close combat armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?
These armies have to get into assault to do real damage. Getting into assault means you are either the closest unit to the enemy, or close enough that you can’t avoid your opponent manoeuvring to make you the closest. This is particularly problematic if your opponent is smart enough to concentrate his Smite Spam around the other units you really need to kill - like a Shadowsword or an artillery parking lot. Something that your assault heavy hitters really need to engage quickly and neutralise if you’re going to have a chance to win. Putting half a dozen Primaris Psykers 12” away from a Shadowsword with a smattering of infantry in the gap effectively shuts down an elite combat army.
I would think that with the Shadowsord, the Psykers would be superfluous
(tbh, the Shadowsword needs some toning down or a price bump).
You'd have the exact same issue with any army sporting lots of multi-damage weapons. You don't need Smite Spam to wipe a GK army or Custodes. Lots of armies will do it from across the table and without needing to play shennanigans with psychic powers and characters. Any army sporting lots of plasma or autocannons, Russ or Baneblade or Artillery companies, Eldar Fire Prism squadrons, etc ad nauseum. There's all sorts of things that mulch melee oriented low model count heavy infantry armies, they've historically been amongst the hardest to play except in editions where they allowed weird gimmicks with wound allocation.
Do the math and tell us how long it takes plasma and autocannons to kill a Custodes unit with 4-5 3++'s vs. the 6 Primaris Psykers. Cause the psykers are going to do it faster and cheaper.
I play mostly elite assault armies. They can survive getting across the board except all but the heaviest artillery spam lists. It's when they get mortal wounds blitzed that they drop like a sack of dirt.
I have a Grey Knights army, I've got a CSM army with tons of Terminators and Obliterators. I get how it works, but those guns are going to be able to hit those units at longer ranges if they're not DS'ing in directly on top of them, and there's usually a whole lot more of them.
Marching Custodes across the field, they may survive longer against heavy weapons than against Smite, but those heavy weapons are getting more turns to shoot and can be taken in vastly larger quantities and employed with greater ease and are much harder to hide from. The Primaris Psykers have to spend time getting into range (so many turns they may not be able to use Smite at all) and ensure that there's nothing closer or the Custodes are immune from the attack, while also ensuring those Primaris psykers have a screening buffer themselves to ensure they can't be attacked, which can muck with that 18" range. That can be really awkward to work with and can be disrupted by lots of different means given that it's usually guardsmen that form the screen.
Where the Smite Spam shines is when you bring yourself to it and DS 9" away from the infantry blob.
Ultimately however, elite assault armies are difficult to balance around as well, their limited numbers and variety of unit types as well as limited total battlefield actions and interactions, coupled with their short ranged nature, means that they're inherently going to lack capabilities other armies find easily and be much more vulnerable to certain things as a result. Having something as simple as an empty Rhino that any SM list may have (the unit may choose not to ride in it or something) out front can screen from Smite unless its dealt with first, but doesn't have much purpose in a Custodes army. Armies of elite multiwound assault models have always faced something of a balance pendulum.
You keep repeating that artillery gets to shoot longer, but that doesn't matter. It's why I said do the math. It takes a frightening amount of firepower to wipe the Custodes squad. You'll definitely get stuff in range and done in that time.
Not so with Smite Spam. 6 Primaris has decent odds of wiping the whole squad in a single turn.
And you're going to have to get in range of them to hit targets of value. Elite armies are not usually great shooters.
Unit1126PLL wrote: If we are going to change the rules, then the best rules change in this situation is to add psychic defense to armies that lack it.
You can completely shut down those 5-7 smites by having a Culexus the closest model or anywhere nearby, for 1/3rd the price. 3 Culexus could completely obviate those psyker's smites and eventually outright kill them. That sort of psychic defense on everyone should be accessible.
Okay not familiar with culexus rules but what stops enemy from killing them first? If they are closest they would also be not protected by character rules so would be free targets to shoot as well. Dead culexus isn't providing much of anti-psyker. How tough they are? Like 3++ and 6+ wounds or something?
Unit1126PLL wrote: If we are going to change the rules, then the best rules change in this situation is to add psychic defense to armies that lack it.
You can completely shut down those 5-7 smites by having a Culexus the closest model or anywhere nearby, for 1/3rd the price. 3 Culexus could completely obviate those psyker's smites and eventually outright kill them. That sort of psychic defense on everyone should be accessible.
Okay not familiar with culexus rules but what stops enemy from killing them first? If they are closest they would also be not protected by character rules so would be free targets to shoot as well. Dead culexus isn't providing much of anti-psyker. How tough they are? Like 3++ and 6+ wounds or something?
The psychic phase comes before shooting/CC. A culexus can delay some spite spam one/two turns until he dies. He has a special rule, you only hit the culexus on 6+, no matter what your WS/BS is, and he has a 4+ invuln sv. But there are ways around it. Flamers still autohit him. Eldar dark reaper hit him on 3+, and orks dont care about 6+ because they attack him with 30 boyz in CC, which have 120 attacks. Another way around him is to block him from LOS with a vehicle, then he isnt the closest visible enemy unit.
Unit1126PLL wrote: If we are going to change the rules, then the best rules change in this situation is to add psychic defense to armies that lack it.
You can completely shut down those 5-7 smites by having a Culexus the closest model or anywhere nearby, for 1/3rd the price. 3 Culexus could completely obviate those psyker's smites and eventually outright kill them. That sort of psychic defense on everyone should be accessible.
Okay not familiar with culexus rules but what stops enemy from killing them first? If they are closest they would also be not protected by character rules so would be free targets to shoot as well. Dead culexus isn't providing much of anti-psyker. How tough they are? Like 3++ and 6+ wounds or something?
The psychic phase comes before shooting/CC. A culexus can delay some spite spam one/two turns until he dies. He has a special rule, you only hit the culexus on 6+, no matter what your WS/BS is, and he has a 4+ invuln sv. But there are ways around it. Flamers still autohit him. Eldar dark reaper hit him on 3+, and orks dont care about 6+ because they attack him with 30 boyz in CC, which have 120 attacks. Another way around him is to block him from LOS with a vehicle, then he isnt the closest visible enemy unit.
Well trio of them is expensive turn delay but that 6+ to hit is bit of a bummer. But some cheap vehicles(maybe with flamers!) to block LOS sorts that out as you noted.
Guess Culexus is...workable but not uber protection and only available for imperial soup. So to combat top-2 faction you need to be...same faction? Nice one. Chaos soup has access to same smite spam as defence. What about the rest of them? (well orks dont' mind too much. Cheap boyz + smite spam of their own)
Galas wrote: Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.
And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.
That's fair enough, but most of the time 40K can end up boiling down to be a bit rock/paper/scissors. To me this is just a case of rock (leet unit armies) complaining about EDIT: paper! (lol) (a way to beat it).
Galas wrote: Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.
And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.
That's fair enough, but most of the time 40K can end up boiling down to be a bit rock/paper/scissors. To me this is just a case of rock (leet unit armies) complaining about scissors (a way to beat it).
Scissors beats rock now? You loose a lot at rock/paper/scissors don't you?
Galas wrote: Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.
And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.
That's fair enough, but most of the time 40K can end up boiling down to be a bit rock/paper/scissors. To me this is just a case of rock (leet unit armies) complaining about scissors (a way to beat it).
Scissors beats rock now? You loose a lot at rock/paper/scissors don't you?
I kept looking at that as well cos it looked off lol
Smiting boys with Primaris/ML isnt that inefficient. Its just not as good as smiting 15-20 points per wound models where you make your points back each cast.
When we were told the mission I was practically quaking in my boots. Thirty of us lads were being sent in to clear a building, normal enough. We always expect casualties, but this time was different. This time the 5th Umbra Rifles were heading into a warzone too hot for the Emperor's Finest. A squad of Ultramarine Reivers had been sent to breach and clear the enemy fortification whilst we held the streets against the mobs of cultists outside, only one had made it out, blood streaming from his ears.
When we stormed the building we expected no one to come out alive, it was a last desperate charge, but inside were just a couple of pissant renegade witches. Sure they took out Infantryman Jones and Sergeant Woo, but the rest of us put our trusty Lasguns to use and that was that. Bit of an anticlimax if you ask me.
Do the math and tell us how long it takes plasma and autocannons to kill a Custodes unit with 4-5 3++'s vs. the 6 Primaris Psykers. Cause the psykers are going to do it faster and cheaper.
I play mostly elite assault armies. They can survive getting across the board except all but the heaviest artillery spam lists. It's when they get mortal wounds blitzed that they drop like a sack of dirt.
Assuming averages using bs4 and no buffs:
you need '9' autocannon shots to get one failed save, so effectively 9 autocannons to kill one custodian with their 3++ and 3 wounds - for GMen HWT thats 189 points in 3 units.
For plasma at overcharge, it's 12 shots to average 2 wounds - two GMen SWS at rapid fire delivers 1 dead custodian for 180 points
For HBolters you need *36* shots average to kill 1 custodian - or 4 GMen HWTs at a reasonable 168
So in a vacuum, and assuming the primaris can get in range and does 1 wound, the primaris is far and away more points efficient for killing Shielded Custodians.
However; engineering the 'vacuum' for that to occur is no small feat.
I suppose that it *does* somewhat break the Old Ways of 6&7th and the little lamented death star - hence the public displeasure?
Put an appropriate casting value next to the word smite on each unit that has it, I don't think it should be 5 for everyone. Of course this is never going to happen now.
I haven't seen much issue with spamming Smite. It's obviously meant to be a hard counter to expensive units with invuls. Utilizing screen units is the solution and almost mandatory in 8th edition. At tournaments I've been to, all top placing armies have had plenty of chaff units. I played a GK player at the SoCal (who placed 3rd or 4th overall) and even he had squads of conscripts mixed in with his main GK forces. I have seen good players able to adapt, not have to spam smite themselves, and win games against smite spam armies. Not only is it possible, it happens with enough frequency to argue that smite spamming is fine and not broken, even if it creates occasional frustration for the unprepared player.
Do the math and tell us how long it takes plasma and autocannons to kill a Custodes unit with 4-5 3++'s vs. the 6 Primaris Psykers. Cause the psykers are going to do it faster and cheaper.
I play mostly elite assault armies. They can survive getting across the board except all but the heaviest artillery spam lists. It's when they get mortal wounds blitzed that they drop like a sack of dirt.
Assuming averages using bs4 and no buffs:
you need '9' autocannon shots to get one failed save, so effectively 9 autocannons to kill one custodian with their 3++ and 3 wounds - for GMen HWT thats 189 points in 3 units.
For plasma at overcharge, it's 12 shots to average 2 wounds - two GMen SWS at rapid fire delivers 1 dead custodian for 180 points
For HBolters you need *36* shots average to kill 1 custodian - or 4 GMen HWTs at a reasonable 168
So in a vacuum, and assuming the primaris can get in range and does 1 wound, the primaris is far and away more points efficient for killing Shielded Custodians.
However; engineering the 'vacuum' for that to occur is no small feat.
I suppose that it *does* somewhat break the Old Ways of 6&7th and the little lamented death star - hence the public displeasure?
Mortal Wounds are the tool to deal with ultra-resistent units, yeah. But you don't see people complaining about smite and Mortal Wounds from normal psykers. People complaint about mortal wound spam with psykers that cost 25-50 points.
Really guys, this "git gud" and denial about the problems of Smite Spam with Malefic Lords and Primaris Psykers is just awful. They are moping all the tournament tables, specially the Malefic Lords ones that are even worse than the Primaris Psykers, and you are here, on dakka dakka... "Nah, thats fine. Is that you don't know how to play agaisn't it".
Just like Conscripts+Commisar, just like Guilliman+Assback, I suppose? Is not that they are OP and thats the reason why they are in every TOP10 tournament list. Is just that people don't know how to play. In tournaments.
Bach wrote: I haven't seen much issue with spamming Smite. It's obviously meant to be a hard counter to expensive units with invuls. Utilizing screen units is the solution and almost mandatory in 8th edition. At tournaments I've been to, all top placing armies have had plenty of chaff units. I played a GK player at the SoCal (who placed 3rd or 4th overall) and even he had squads of conscripts mixed in with his main GK forces. I have seen good players able to adapt, not have to spam smite themselves, and win games against smite spam armies. Not only is it possible, it happens with enough frequency to argue that smite spamming is fine and not broken, even if it creates occasional frustration for the unprepared player.
Smite spam is fine. You just need to spamm chaff. Unless you are Necrons or Non-BoyzSpam Orks or Tau. Then screw you and git gud. Go play Imperial you xenos scum.
Seriously I can't understand how people is fine with the idea that you need chaff (Or directly to ally, and not ally with Custodes, but with full armies like space marines) no matter the army you are playing. And thats totally fine? Disgusting.
Smite spam is really an issue for elite armies that need to get in close to do some work. I also play Tau and smite really isn't too much of an issue at all. Even for my fusion commanders, likely weren't surviving long anyway and you can bring drones to screen as well. Tau generally still shoot across the table, like a lot of the necron as well. So are you really afraid of having some mortal wounds go on your necron warriors if screening with them? It's not like they can't bring those models back?
Tau are in a good spot vs smite spam.
Orks can bring enough bodies , smite spam not an issue.
Necron, if you were going to try and blindly run wraiths up the field, smite spam will hurt.
So yes if you blindly run the old 3++ units up the field, smite spam is designed to destroy you. Welcome to the new rock paper scissors.
As far as I can see smite spam (especially at 4-5 psykers) is only a problem if you need to close and rely on high toughness or saves. So if you want to play an army that has to be within 18" and can't take screens then it will wreck you, but you built an extremely narrow army, all such armies have pretty hard counters. Outrange them, screen them, deny them.
If you are taking an all Ork Biker army or Grey Knight Dreadknight spam or similar then yes, it's a huge problem, but in those cases you are also spamming, so spam vs spam one beats the other. Somteims you are taking multiples of very similar units, which is becoming too specialised so again, bad matchups against the answer to your build are to be expected.
Playing Nids, DE, Craftworld Eldar and Tau against smite spam it's not been the psykers that have caused me issues, but the other units. I can maneuver around or outrange the psykers its the artillery that hurts.
So how well do you expect Smite Spam to work on some flyers, like Thunderbolts or Vultures? I'm wondering if a series of strafing runs should be my answer to any of this I come across.
Drager wrote: As far as I can see smite spam (especially at 4-5 psykers) is only a problem if you need to close and rely on high toughness or saves. So if you want to play an army that has to be within 18" and can't take screens then it will wreck you, but you built an extremely narrow army, all such armies have pretty hard counters. Outrange them, screen them, deny them.
If you are taking an all Ork Biker army or Grey Knight Dreadknight spam or similar then yes, it's a huge problem, but in those cases you are also spamming, so spam vs spam one beats the other. Somteims you are taking multiples of very similar units, which is becoming too specialised so again, bad matchups against the answer to your build are to be expected.
Playing Nids, DE, Craftworld Eldar and Tau against smite spam it's not been the psykers that have caused me issues, but the other units. I can maneuver around or outrange the psykers its the artillery that hurts.
It's not just spam. Take a GK battalion with 3 Strikes. They're gonna get equally mulched. Takes Custodes anything. Mulched.
Anyway, GW Community just said that Malefic Lords are going up to 80 PPM so I think that kind of shows there was a problem.
Drager wrote: As far as I can see smite spam (especially at 4-5 psykers) is only a problem if you need to close and rely on high toughness or saves. So if you want to play an army that has to be within 18" and can't take screens then it will wreck you, but you built an extremely narrow army, all such armies have pretty hard counters. Outrange them, screen them, deny them.
If you are taking an all Ork Biker army or Grey Knight Dreadknight spam or similar then yes, it's a huge problem, but in those cases you are also spamming, so spam vs spam one beats the other. Somteims you are taking multiples of very similar units, which is becoming too specialised so again, bad matchups against the answer to your build are to be expected.
Playing Nids, DE, Craftworld Eldar and Tau against smite spam it's not been the psykers that have caused me issues, but the other units. I can maneuver around or outrange the psykers its the artillery that hurts.
It's not just spam. Take a GK battalion with 3 Strikes. They're gonna get equally mulched. Takes Custodes anything. Mulched.
Anyway, GW Community just said that Malefic Lords are going up to 80 PPM so I think that kind of shows there was a problem.
It shows that Malefic Lords (and hopefully Primaris Psykers) are a problem. With that kind of nerf, I'm thinking the odds on smite being nerfed go down. Thankfully, GW is seeing that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Well sure if cheap units with full smite cease to exist then sure, smite spam won't really be a thing. If your 10 Malefic lords cost 800 points instead of 400.
Audustum wrote: It's not just spam. Take a GK battalion with 3 Strikes. They're gonna get equally mulched. Takes Custodes anything. Mulched.
Anyway, GW Community just said that Malefic Lords are going up to 80 PPM so I think that kind of shows there was a problem.
Mono-custodes is a niche, focused army. They have good matchups and bad matchups due to lack of tools and depth. To be competitive they need support and, honestly, I think that is how it should be.
Grey Knights with 3 strikes and nothing else? That's what, 500 points? Sure it'll get destroyed, but, again, there should be an army around them. Dreadnoughts, Stormravens, maybe some other stuff from Imperium. They are not terrible at dealing with smites, they have access to a fair amount of Deny and, again, can outrange and outmanoeuvre the psykers pretty effectively. Just strikes is spam, it's fluffy spam, but still spam.
I've not played against more than 5 psykers mind and I'm not saying that there is no problem with Malefic lords/primaris psykers, but I don't think the problem is with smite.
Audustum wrote: You keep repeating that artillery gets to shoot longer, but that doesn't matter. It's why I said do the math. It takes a frightening amount of firepower to wipe the Custodes squad.
In a vacuum, yes. But there are a lot of other factors at play. It is a whole lot more difficult to bring those psykers to bear, especially if you want them to live to do it again, than to just start blasting from turn 1. That difference does matter.
You'll definitely get stuff in range and done in that time.
Hrm, The 1850pts IG army I ran last weekend will do 13-14 wounds to a 3++ Custodes unit each turn from across the board from only the Russ and Manticore units, not including the FA tanks or infantry or psykers or stratagems or anything else. That's 4 Custodes and change each turn, almost a full squad, without needing any Mortal Wounds...or indeed half the army.
(For reference, the list was using Catachan doctrines, 3 HQ officers, 3 Astropaths, 6 infantry squads with autocannons and grenade launchers, 2 Tank Commanders with BC/LC/HB's, 2 HSLRBT's with 3x HB, 2x Manticore, 3x Hellhounds)
Not so with Smite Spam. 6 Primaris has decent odds of wiping the whole squad in a single turn.
6 Primaris Psykers will average 10 wounds, or 3 dead Custodes. Painful to be sure, but not a whole squad (possible but would require well above average luck) and those Primaris psykers are much more difficult to use relative to the other options in the IG arsenal.
And you're going to have to get in range of them to hit targets of value. Elite armies are not usually great shooters.
This is true, though if theyre running a smite spam blob, you do have maneuver options as the smite blob will probably concentrate in one area.
The problem with Custodes is that they aren't really an army, they're a single footslogging infantry unit with a couple of expensive copy-pasted SM units (which are even more expensive with Custodes stats/abilities). They lack too many tools and features.
You cant even run them as a Battleforged army without units from other factions. If your army is basically all Custodes, well, you should expect that it will have weaknesses, just as an all Russ IG army would, or a Knight army, or anything else that has a small count of units and little variety in unit type. It's a special niche build, and those will always have exploitable weaknesses and its hard to balance that without making them nigh invincible, particularly multiwound heavy infantry (which we have seen in the past).
Much the same can be applied to Grey Knights, and its part of why they have so many issues right now. The last time they were really powerful was when they could play wound allocation gimmicks with Paladins and had cheap Henchmen chaff with undercosted psybolt ammo stuck to everything that could take an assault cannon or autocannon. That said, GK also have issues with really bad stratagems and overcosting, I'm still flabbergasted their Terminators went up in price. I'm all for them getting some extra help like bonuses to or additional deny the witch rolls.
That a relatively expensive Psyker may on average slay a single 2W model is perfectly fine, especially when said model is not necessarily elite infantry.
Smite is balanced because it slays 2 conscripts like it slays 1 Terminator.
On average, that's still not many points when comparing with the cost of the psyker and the likelihood of casting the power, the range limit and the inherent limitations (no targeting).
I can see how one would be salty after making a total elite army and then facing off against the cheapest of smites (Brimstones is it?), but that's not a problem of Smite, more a problem of Brimstone and / or cheap psykers.
It's also fair that an elite elite army would have some downsides, as armies are meant to be balanced.
If you're only running the elite (terminator / bikes) of the elite (space marines), it makes sense that you may be too 1337 for your own good.
Overall, I think invulnerable saves made the game a lot worse before the introduction of standardized mortal wounds.
On average, 50 points of AP-3 shooting generally does as much damage as a smite every turn, it can target whatever and generally does not have an 18" range limit.
So overall... it's not like Smite looks like a major problem by itself.
morgoth wrote: Smite is balanced because it slays 2 conscripts like it slays 1 Terminator.
That's exactly the problem...Other side spends tons of points for defence he doesn't get to use. Resulting in meta shifting toward cheap horde from elites WHO ALREADY are soft for their points. It's not like there's unit that is too tough for it's point by having great stats. Basically the tougher your stats the EASIER you are generally to remove for your points. Conscripts, cultists etc THAT'S the actually tough ones for their points.
morgoth wrote: Smite is balanced because it slays 2 conscripts like it slays 1 Terminator.
That's exactly the problem...Other side spends tons of points for defence he doesn't get to use. Resulting in meta shifting toward cheap horde from elites WHO ALREADY are soft for their points. It's not like there's unit that is too tough for it's point by having great stats. Basically the tougher your stats the EASIER you are generally to remove for your points. Conscripts, cultists etc THAT'S the actually tough ones for their points.
Have you ever received a charge from a unit of 20 or more boyz with a unit of cultist? Have you ever received a charge from such a unit of boyz with a unit of terminators? Which one did better?
Hint: the terminators are not the ones losing 20+ models before moral kicks in.
You do get to use the defenses you are paying for, just not against the few models that are able to smite if you stand closest to them. Drive a rhino in their face and let them smite that.
morgoth wrote: Smite is balanced because it slays 2 conscripts like it slays 1 Terminator.
That's exactly the problem...Other side spends tons of points for defence he doesn't get to use. Resulting in meta shifting toward cheap horde from elites WHO ALREADY are soft for their points. It's not like there's unit that is too tough for it's point by having great stats. Basically the tougher your stats the EASIER you are generally to remove for your points. Conscripts, cultists etc THAT'S the actually tough ones for their points.
Depends on what tools you are using. Against something like custodes many lists I build can only deal with them through careful use of smite kiting and I still lose a bunch of units. Against conscripts and cultists, I can remove 100+ a turn, they are soft as butter. This is probably because I play nids and my tools are just good against screens like that. Against custodes I have smite and my 1 unit of stealers. Making smite unable to kill these threats switches it so that custodes are now a pretty hard counter to my army instead of smite spam being a pretty hard counter to them, that's not better, just different.
An entire squad of devilguants will do 3 wounds to Custodes and then get butchered. A unit of max stealers with a broodlord supporting does 7 wounds. Our big guns don't fare that much better, needing 8 rounds of dedicated shooting from a hive tyrant to kill a single squad. My Neurothropes and Tyrants, however will be able to deal with the threat, through smite. I don't think storm shield spam should be viable, to be honest, we had enough of that with deathstars last edition.
Smite in general was never a big problem for elite armies. Malefic Lords and Primaris Psykers was, because with those you could smite eight times a turn for not that many points.
morgoth wrote: Smite is balanced because it slays 2 conscripts like it slays 1 Terminator.
That's exactly the problem...Other side spends tons of points for defence he doesn't get to use. Resulting in meta shifting toward cheap horde from elites WHO ALREADY are soft for their points. It's not like there's unit that is too tough for it's point by having great stats. Basically the tougher your stats the EASIER you are generally to remove for your points. Conscripts, cultists etc THAT'S the actually tough ones for their points.
Gee, it's almost as if there are counters to certain units!
Smite (and Mortal Wounds) in general appear to be intended as a readily and widely available counter to the strengths of elite armies. It’s fine for an army to have a hard counter - sometimes your Riptide Wing just happens to run into a Grav Spam (talking 7th Ed here). The idea is that you can build a very strong army type, but if that army type meets its key weakness it’s doomed. This is normal Rock-Paper-Scissors.
I think one of the big reasons why people are getting so salty is because everything in 8th Ed counters elite armies (particularly elite assault armies). Horde screens, morale, multi-damage weapons, the new AP system, the loss of templates, objective scoring, everything stacks the odds against elite armies. Then on top of that you hand out like candy a system that natively subverts everything that elite armies are good at, while at the same time still being effective against non-elite armies.
In this sense, mortal wounds / Smite are not like Grav in 7th. Grav was a hard counter against the strongest units - Monstrous Creatures - while being relatively ineffective against horde units. Instead, mortal wounds are analogous to a 7th Ed plasma gun with a special rule that it killed 5 extra models for every 10 models in the unit. Such a weapon would be reasonably effective against elite armies, but devastating against Tyranids/Orks/Guard. So you have a weapon, readily available to everyone and easily spammed, that is at least reasonably effective against the strongest armies, and yet devastating against the weakest armies? Surely that was never going to be a good idea.
On top of that kicking the guy who’s down, you have the fact that mortal wounds are by their very nature just patently anti-fun. One of the big concepts in game design is player agency - that is, that the guy on the receiving end of the attacks gets some way to interact. You could statistically boil down the 40k shooting phase to ‘ok, please remove 9D3 of your models now.’ Does that sound like fun? No? That’s because you have no ability to interact with the situation. It’s a lot more fun to roll 30 dice and hope for a pile of sixes than to just remove 25 models, even though they’re statistically the same. The hope, the anticipation while the dice are rolling, these are what make the game fun, rather than just a mathematical exercise. Mortal wounds subvert that fun by utterly denying the defending player any agency to interact with what’s happening.
So you have a system, readily available to everyone and easily spammed, that is effective against everyone but obscenely powerful against the weakest armies, that actively shuts down the elements of fun in this game, and they’re unpopular? Quelle surprise.
kombatwombat wrote: I think one of the big reasons why people are getting so salty is because everything in 8th Ed counters elite armies (particularly elite assault armies). Horde screens, morale, multi-damage weapons, the new AP system, the loss of templates, objective scoring, everything stacks the odds against elite armies. Then on top of that you hand out like candy a system that natively subverts everything that elite armies are good at, while at the same time still being effective against non-elite armies.
Because spending 35+ points on one psyker that has a 60% chance of passing a spell that kills a total of two models (before FnP) is effective against non-elite armies - maybe even horde.... right.
I don't think you understand this: it's perfectly fine if your Terminator gets killed in one phase by another model that costs about the same price.
In most cases, that model can at most kill two gaunts or conscripts and would be shredded by anything in any other phase.
At least in 8th, elite is playable, whereas horde was unplayable in 7th.
I think it's totally unfair to compare the madness that was Grav with the mild anti-elite that is Smite.
Also, smite absolutely has player agency. To think that they just pick a unit and go "boop, wounds gone" is overly simplistic. Presumably, a psyker gas a given movement distance, meaning you know it's capabilities for where it can move. Once you know that, it is fairly easy to protect a crucial unit with a less crucial one.
On top of that kicking the guy who’s down, you have the fact that mortal wounds are by their very nature just patently anti-fun. One of the big concepts in game design is player agency - that is, that the guy on the receiving end of the attacks gets some way to interact.
While I get the sentiment here, and partly agree, there is agency on the part of the player being smited. There is Deny The Witch (if applicable) and the fact that Smite targets the closest possible unit, not just anything. Knowing the movement capabilities of the psykers and setting up battlefield positioning gives you a lot of defense against Smite being effective. If someone wants to run an ultra elite army of nothing but expensive heavy infantry with no tools to manipulate that effectively, they're going to have problems, just as if you ran an army of nothing but Russ tanks or all Dreadnoughts or the like.
On top of that kicking the guy who’s down, you have the fact that mortal wounds are by their very nature just patently anti-fun. One of the big concepts in game design is player agency - that is, that the guy on the receiving end of the attacks gets some way to interact.
While I get the sentiment here, and partly agree, there is agency on the part of the player being smited. There is Deny The Witch (if applicable) and the fact that Smite targets the closest possible unit, not just anything. Knowing the movement capabilities of the psykers and setting up battlefield positioning gives you a lot of defense against Smite being effective. If someone wants to run an ultra elite army of nothing but expensive heavy infantry with no tools to manipulate that effectively, they're going to have problems, just as if you ran an army of nothing but Russ tanks or all Dreadnoughts or the like.
Its to bad we cant play against each other. If we could i would bring 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game, and then you would show me how you deny the witch and make me smite what you want, not what i want.
On top of that kicking the guy who’s down, you have the fact that mortal wounds are by their very nature just patently anti-fun. One of the big concepts in game design is player agency - that is, that the guy on the receiving end of the attacks gets some way to interact.
While I get the sentiment here, and partly agree, there is agency on the part of the player being smited. There is Deny The Witch (if applicable) and the fact that Smite targets the closest possible unit, not just anything. Knowing the movement capabilities of the psykers and setting up battlefield positioning gives you a lot of defense against Smite being effective. If someone wants to run an ultra elite army of nothing but expensive heavy infantry with no tools to manipulate that effectively, they're going to have problems, just as if you ran an army of nothing but Russ tanks or all Dreadnoughts or the like.
Its to bad we cant play against each other. If we could i would bring 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game, and then you would show me how you deny the witch and make me smite what you want, not what i want.
I'd be happy to, alas we appear to live on opposite sides of two continents and an ocean Mein Deutsch ist nicht mehr so gut, Ich kann nur ein bisschen sprechen jezt.
That said, if you wanted to take the Smite-Spam 14 Primaris Psyker army against the IG list I posted earlier in the thread (the latest army I've used thus far in 8E), I would feel pretty confident facing the wall of Smiting 6"mv infantry characters. The psykers are going to have to advance across the field to me, I've got 60 dudes there you'll have to chew through first before you can get to anything juicy (that's the part where I control what you can Smite since you have to Smite the closest unit and those IG psykers lack any real mobility, they're basic footslogging infantry), and I can concentrate on and engage your support and screening assets while the core of your killing power tries to slog across the table and through the infantry screen before it can do anything useful, and I'm still getting to attempt 3 DtW rolls for anything that does get close to boot.
If you're trying to make a Custodes army with 20 dudes and a couple dreads and a Land Raider work, well, ok, yes the Smite-spam list is going to eat it alive and you probably won't have much of an answer, but I'm sorry to say that such an army is going to have big problems against lots of things just as much as it does Smite, it will find itself just as frustrated by any heavy gunline or an Eldar jetbike and skimmer list that it can't get to grips with and lots of other things. That's part of the problem of being an ultra-elite low model count army with little variation in unit type and limited actions and board control.
I'd be happy to play against that army. My imperial armies bring Greyfax and a Culexus. The Culexus will kill or injure one per turn while nerfing all the others to the point where Greyfax will shut them down. So if she shuts down two smites and the culexus kills 1, that's 11 left. If they all smite the same Baneblade and have 0 failures otherwise, it lives with 2 wounds left. Then the Culexus kills another, leaving 10, which finish off one Baneblade. If I've deployed correctly, I should be able to keep the Baneblades far enough apart that the smite-blob cannot hit more than one in a turn. So on and so forth (9 psykers (11 alive, 2 shut down by GF + Culexus aura) on turn 3, doing 18 wounds to a Baneblade, leaving it with 8. Then 8 psykers, killing the second Baneblade on turn 4. Then 7 psykers leaving the last Baneblade on 10 wounds on turn 5, and if the game goes on till turn 6, then the third Baneblade finally dies.
So if my army does nothing to keep the psykers more than 18" away, and I am using the Culexus like an idiot and not making sure it is the closest model to your smite blob, or using Greyfax like an idiot and not keeping it within 24", or not clearing out units 18" away so that the big tanks and their other allies can shoot the psykers, and not shooting Katerina Greyfax at the psykers at all, then you can kill 3 baneblades by turn 6. *waves tiny flag*.
If you spread your smite-blob out, OTOH, then I can just stay out of range of a good portion and stack a flank. I'll also have fewer drops than you, so whatever poor 1440 points left of your army is will get absolutely annihilated by the Baneblade's shooting.
I don’t think it is completely accurate to assume the defending player can simply prevent the Smite spam from chewing their units. With 18” and 6” move, that is a significant radius of effect.
Unless you are playing a Soup or Horde army, you are not necessarily going to have the tools to effectively deal with that.
I don’t think it’s right that a combination of cheap points and efficacy can lead to such a meta warping. To my experience a model typically on average kills half its points worth in a given turn that it is effective, ie shooting or Melee. For cheap psykers using Smite the ratio is about 1:1 depending on what is hit. Assuming Terminators or tougher. Could be Wraithguard or any other pricey unit that wants to get close to be effective.
If you don’t have cheap fodder to feed the monster that is the Smite spam, within your Codex, Index (not factoring in Soup armies) then that is an issue. You shouldn’t be forced to play units outside of your core army, ie space marines with imperial guard infantry. If the meta forces this then the something is too powerful.
As an Eldar player, the cheapes I can field is Guardians, and even they are 8pts each. My main Troops are 12pts each with Rangers and Dire Avengers. That starts to hurt..
Now that Malefic Lords have been fixed in points that will solve that one. Just need The remaining culprits sorted, which we may well see in Chapter Approved.
"If you don't have cheap fodder smite beats you" is the same thing as saying "if you don't have enough anti-tank, tanks beat you" or "if you have no melee defense, melee beats you."
It's part of the game, deal with it. And before you say "every faction has access to anti-tank or melee defense but not cheap infantry" - well, Inquisition has no melee defense or anti-tank. Astra Telepathica has none of the above. Grey Knights have no real anti-tank either.
Certain factions have certain weaknesses (deliberately so) and these weaknesses are engineered into their design. Not having access to that sort of thing is fine.
Unit1126PLL wrote: "If you don't have cheap fodder smite beats you" is the same thing as saying "if you don't have enough anti-tank, tanks beat you" or "if you have no melee defense, melee beats you."
It's part of the game, deal with it. And before you say "every faction has access to anti-tank or melee defense but not cheap infantry" - well, Inquisition has no melee defense or anti-tank. Astra Telepathica has none of the above. Grey Knights have no real anti-tank either.
Certain factions have certain weaknesses (deliberately so) and these weaknesses are engineered into their design. Not having access to that sort of thing is fine.
"Inquisition" and "Astra Telepathica": Really? Do you need to go to those fringe examples to support your "git gud" attempt?
Grey Knights have anti-tank in the form of meele and psychic powers. Or, well. Thats how it should work, they just suck but thats a different matter. Tau don't have meele defense, but they have ways to work around it. Thats the problem, not having ways to work around something. The Rock-Paper-Scissors balance is toxic when we are talking about a game where you have 0 capabiliteis of changing your army composition and it becomes a russian roulette.
If 8th edition has shown me something, is how fast Warhammer40k players embrace the "git gud" (For others, of course) mentality once their faction becomes OP, even if one edition before they where at the bottom of the barrel.
It's funny how Guard players are so quick to go "it's easy to counter, just run chaff/deniers/snipers". As if their faction wasn't top 3 at all of those.
But anyway, now that CA is (over)nerfing Malefic Lords, I have to agree that Smite as a concept isn't the problem, per se, just the undercosted casters. 60pts should be a good baseline for a full Smite, and now the witch is dead, that only leaves Primaris Psykers and Spiritseers. The latter usually have better things to do with their time, which is a testament to how good Runes of Battle are. The former have the same chronically-undercosted syndrome of 8th ed IG, though that pales before the Astropaths. Sure, support powers aren't as flashy as Smite, but come on, 15pts?
Now, if it were up to me, I'd go with a couple of the suggestions in this thread. Namely, remake Psychic Focus so that successive casts of a power in the same phase suffer a stacking penalty, with consequent increased chance of Perils (and perhaps a limitation that a failed power can't be attempted again). Smite included in this, with the exception of mini Smites like Rites of Banishment and Destructor.
This is partly because an angle of the Smite mechanics I don't see discussed much is that not only are cheap weak psykers too strong, but strong expensive psykers are too weak (offensively). When the Archdaemon of Tzeentch can do about the same psychic damage as a run of the mill Primaris Psyker, something's awry (mind you, ARK is absolutely broken, but not due to his casting). Ahriman, Zoanthropes, Crowe, basically anyone fluffed as being a psychic artillery powerhouse (except for Magnus) is relatively weak under the current rules -- largely because Smite is not only universally available and easy to cast, but also easily the most reliable offensive psychic power. I've been crunching thr numbers (will post if y'all wanna see it) and the majority of offensive psychic powers are at best sidegrades to Smite in terms of expected wounds, and nigh-universally situational.
So, at least, the changes outlined above might help curb spammed cheap psykers while giving people who want to field expensive psychic powerhouses a chance outside of buff bots. We need some better offensive powers too (I have hopes for the Daemons and Tsons codices), but aside from that, not penalizing any sort of psychic offense other than massed cheap Smite is a good starting point.
Unit1126PLL wrote: It also leaves Inquisitors at 55 points - those are less than 60. They desperately need a nerf after all. You can tell by how many are being spammed.
Why, I can't go a game without seeing an inquisitor on the table!
Unit1126PLL wrote: "If you don't have cheap fodder smite beats you" is the same thing as saying "if you don't have enough anti-tank, tanks beat you" or "if you have no melee defense, melee beats you."
It's part of the game, deal with it. And before you say "every faction has access to anti-tank or melee defense but not cheap infantry" - well, Inquisition has no melee defense or anti-tank. Astra Telepathica has none of the above. Grey Knights have no real anti-tank either.
Certain factions have certain weaknesses (deliberately so) and these weaknesses are engineered into their design. Not having access to that sort of thing is fine.
"Inquisition" and "Astra Telepathica": Really? Do you need to go to those fringe examples to support your "git gud" attempt?
Grey Knights have anti-tank in the form of meele and psychic powers. Or, well. Thats how it should work, they just suck but thats a different matter. Tau don't have meele defense, but they have ways to work around it. Thats the problem, not having ways to work around something. The Rock-Paper-Scissors balance is toxic when we are talking about a game where you have 0 capabiliteis of changing your army composition and it becomes a russian roulette.
If 8th edition has shown me something, is how fast Warhammer40k players embrace the "git gud" (For others, of course) mentality once their faction becomes OP, even if one edition before they where at the bottom of the barrel.
"Melee" and "psychic powers" aren't really antitank. My Baneblades do not fear GK melee or psychic powers as much as a quadlas predator, fyi.
Is it just me or are the cheap astropaths even worse for smite spam than the primaris/inquisitors? Primaris: for 40 points, you get an average of 1.66 wounds per turn, plus a small chance of being sucked into the warp.
For only five points more, you get three astropaths. If my math is right, that's an average of 2.0 wounds to smite, no perils, a waaaaay bigger potential upside to wounds, and you can spread them around.
Throw six with Primaris into a Vanguard, and you've got a mighty smitey detachment for only 130 points.
Unit1126PLL wrote: "If you don't have cheap fodder smite beats you" is the same thing as saying "if you don't have enough anti-tank, tanks beat you" or "if you have no melee defense, melee beats you."
It's part of the game, deal with it. And before you say "every faction has access to anti-tank or melee defense but not cheap infantry" - well, Inquisition has no melee defense or anti-tank. Astra Telepathica has none of the above. Grey Knights have no real anti-tank either.
Certain factions have certain weaknesses (deliberately so) and these weaknesses are engineered into their design. Not having access to that sort of thing is fine.
"Inquisition" and "Astra Telepathica": Really? Do you need to go to those fringe examples to support your "git gud" attempt?
Grey Knights have anti-tank in the form of meele and psychic powers. Or, well. Thats how it should work, they just suck but thats a different matter. Tau don't have meele defense, but they have ways to work around it. Thats the problem, not having ways to work around something. The Rock-Paper-Scissors balance is toxic when we are talking about a game where you have 0 capabiliteis of changing your army composition and it becomes a russian roulette.
If 8th edition has shown me something, is how fast Warhammer40k players embrace the "git gud" (For others, of course) mentality once their faction becomes OP, even if one edition before they where at the bottom of the barrel.
"Melee" and "psychic powers" aren't really antitank. My Baneblades do not fear GK melee or psychic powers as much as a quadlas predator, fyi.
Meele is no antitank in 8th. Powerfist and Chainfist were pretty damm good at popping vehicles before. Yeah, the best anti-tank is in shooting, and to kill a superheavy you need the biggest weapons out there that aren't normally found in meele.
4100xpb wrote: Is it just me or are the cheap astropaths even worse for smite spam than the primaris/inquisitors? Primaris: for 40 points, you get an average of 1.66 wounds per turn, plus a small chance of being sucked into the warp.
For only five points more, you get three astropaths. If my math is right, that's an average of 2.0 wounds to smite, no perils, a waaaaay bigger potential upside to wounds, and you can spread them around.
Throw six with Primaris into a Vanguard, and you've got a mighty smitey detachment for only 130 points.
You're right, it is mathematically optimal. I suppose people would just rather not gamble on that 5+ or face uselessness, or perhaps they are dissuaded by their lackluster statline. Considering they're unbelievably useless for anything else, I'd say they may well not be worth it. Considering when you factor in the chance for d6 wounds you're looking at 2 wounds for 45 points on the Astropaths versus 1.79 wounds for 40 points on the Primaris. And then there's HQ vs Elite slots to consider.
Psychic abilities should have cost points to select. Including smite. Then you could balance the point cost of the spells, rather than trying to balance the point cost of the unit around what spells I might feel like having.
NintiethTime wrote: It's funny how Guard players are so quick to go "it's easy to counter, just run chaff/deniers/snipers". As if their faction wasn't top 3 at all of those.
It's more a response to the "woe is me I can't do anything about Smite" and the response is "here's some counterplay to the exact list you're talking about and why it's not so straightforward to just roll face with", or when people are playing specialist niche armies (or things that aren't even really armies, like Custodes) that lacks many capabilities the game is built around and they need to acknowledge that certain army builds are going to have glaring weaknesses.
I'm all for some changes to Smite. I'm all for Smite being consecutively harder to cast with each attempt for example. I'm all for some of the more expensive Psykers having better offensively oriented abilities and more capable abilities in general. I'm all for rolled powers being better formulated to provide more utility than just spamming Smite. I'm all for GK getting some help and adjustment because their codex was really poorly handled. It's just when people say that when people talk about there being no counterplay, it gets ridiculous (particularly when it's built into the power).
So apparently GW have just said in interview that they will be moving to a 6 monthly balance/FAQ update based around the tournament season, March after Adepticon and September after NOVA.
Smite will be addressed in a balance update in March.
morgoth wrote: Smite is balanced because it slays 2 conscripts like it slays 1 Terminator.
That's exactly the problem...Other side spends tons of points for defence he doesn't get to use. Resulting in meta shifting toward cheap horde from elites WHO ALREADY are soft for their points. It's not like there's unit that is too tough for it's point by having great stats. Basically the tougher your stats the EASIER you are generally to remove for your points. Conscripts, cultists etc THAT'S the actually tough ones for their points.
Gee, it's almost as if there are counters to certain units!
Are you suggesting Terminators need to actually be countered by cheap Smite availability?
Returning Tyranid player here because squats are still MIA.
I see several answers to smite in our list.
We have
A) A lot of available denies
Tyrants, Neurothrope, Zoanthrope, Broodlord, Allied Patriarch and Magus (with bonus Mind control for the shadowsword behind the smiters)
B) gaunts
C) Biovores that can miss when targeting a unit near the Psyker
Your poor Psyker has to smite a spore mine again, sorry about that.
D) Psychic Scream
(separate smite that can cause psykers to forget a power
E) Kronos Warlord trait
Fail the psychic test and take D3 mortal wounds
F) Kronor stratagem deepest shadow
Make your test on 1 die ugly combo with "E"
Jidmah wrote: No,he is saying that terminators should be countered by choices that cost 100+ points each and are usually no more than three in an army.
I hope you aren't referring to smite spam psykers with "cost 100+ points" and "no more than three in an army" because these two things could not possibly be further from the truth.
Jidmah wrote: No,he is saying that terminators should be countered by choices that cost 100+ points each and are usually no more than three in an army.
I hope you aren't referring to smite spam psykers with "cost 100+ points" and "no more than three in an army" because these two things could not possibly be further from the truth.
No I'm referring to all the 20+ psykers that are not spammable unlike the four or five that are. As is he.
I think the problem with Smite is that against an army that has a lot of it, the experience can be tedious and frustrating.
As someone with a Thousand Sons army I can appreciate that. However us and GK are not really the problem - the problem is easily accessible full power smite.
Personally I'd have smite be exactly like the GK version for everyone, except that you have the option for a once per turn boosted version that works as current smite.
That would probably be the best solution. Just have Smite be a bespoken rule on every psyker - that way they can tune every single smite according to the model it is used with.
