Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Smite doesn't roll to hit right? A balancing mechanic could be that, but good Lord that's even more rolling and unbalanced for certain armies.

Really smite isn't a problem. 30 point characters that smite are a problem. The base cost for a smiting unit should be about 70-75. Anything under that shouldn't have "real smite"

Been playing with Marines against the new Nids. They can get a hideous amount of Smites of the board with Zoanthropes. My only way to play around it was to abuse their slow movement by sticking a Repulsor in their face with Psychic Fortress and Armour of Contempt. It simply has too much value if it hits a Marine or Primaris...

Sisters of Silence. They are the ultimate anti-smite bubblewrap. I know they cost a good bunch of points, but when what they are protecting are Custodes, it is worth it.

Culexus seems a tad better though due to its staying power.

Don't see the problem personally, but I suspect Mortal Wounds will be given out like candy to get round the number of things that appear to have 2+ saves and high numbers of wounds where really its the main way for some armies to hurt them.

Suspect they would be better considered as normal would, with an AP That also works against invulnerable saves

So a Mortal Wound with AP-3 on say a 3+/4++ Hive Tyrant becomes a 6+/7++ save as opposed to an automatic wound.

Marginal change but provides some counter

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Culexus seems a tad better though due to its staying power.

Is much more difficult to wrap your troops with a bunch of Culexus and more easy for the enemy to go around them to hit with Smite what they want.

Smite does not roll to hit, and inflicts Mortal Wounds. Thus it is relatively reliable, and ignores hit-mods. Cover does nothing, Invulnerable Saves do nothing, hell, attempting to engage in melee does nothing. Additionally, the all-or-nothing nature of casting and denial, combined with the need to exceed the attacker roll to deny, means that the most powerful attacks are those least likely to be denied.

Thus the solutions usually are more tailored. "Take Snipers" (great until you come across Gulliman and Razorbacks), "take an anti-psyker Stratagem" (which works on a solo clutch power like Warptime or da Jump, but doesn't scale versus Smitespam), or "run hordes of cheap bodies" (an option with relatively few counters, that also helps counter assaults and null-plasma). So the fact Smite is efficient at inflicting wounds regardless of Toughness, Saves or Hitmods means points-per-wound is the only relevant metric. Meaning Conscripts, Boyz, Brimstones, etc.

It's all-around horrible game design.

 warhead01 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
I hadn't really used smite until my last game. Storm shield on dreads are super tough my best weapons bouncing off due to those. Smite helped but wasn't ever enough with only one weird boy. One of the local guys has complained about smite but more so about 30 point psyker spam. I think that's more so where the problem is.

They are interlinked. You can't have smite spam without cheap psykers and smite gives reason to bring multiple psykers.

True enough. I guess I was thinking about a comment above that didn't want smite to hurt vehicles as easily or at all.

As a thought about spam, just how much should a psyker cost then? Just how low of a cost opens up the abuse? I'd like to run 3 weird boys but haven played a game t a high enough points level to find the points for more than one.

The 60 points a weirdboy costs is about the minimum any psyker should cost, really. Maybe 50 points if a malus to casting is introduced for the current mega-cheap psykers.

What about 55 point inquisitors? Just a model with BP and chainsword and Canoness stats (or a Company Commander (30pts) with +1 wound and +1 attack)?

I think they're fine, honestly. But some people might think a 55pt smite is a lot.

Now, my inquisitors run in the 60-80 point ranges, 85 for Greyfax, because they need /some/ wargear other than chainsword + bolt pistol, but ...

Inquisitors are also BS/WS 3+ and no invulnerable save and only 4+sv, which makes them significantly worse than a Canoness.

Inquisitional psychic powers are also garbage, so you pretty much have to use them as smite-machines. At that point cost, they'd be okay for just that at 55, if they weren't so hugely undercut by Astropaths, Primaris Psykers, and Malefic Lords (who also happen to have access to some seriously potent powers outside of Smite).

 Crimson wrote:
When 8th edition rumours started coming in, and I heard Mortal Wounds would be a thing, I suspected they might be a problem; when I heard that the basic psychic power accessible by every psyker in the game would cause them, I knew they would be a problem. Mortal Wounds are just a bad mechanic, especially if not used super sparingly; they are completely disproportionately powerful against certain targets.

There is nothing particularly overpowered about smite when cast by a 100+ points Librarian, Farseer og Hive Tyrant. It is undercosted models like Primaris Psykers and Malefic Lords that cause the problems.

 Fafnir wrote:
Inquisitors are also BS/WS 3+ and no invulnerable save and only 4+sv, which makes them significantly worse than a Canoness.

Inquisitional psychic powers are also garbage, so you pretty much have to use them as smite-machines. At that point cost, they'd be okay for just that at 55, if they weren't so hugely undercut by Astropaths, Primaris Psykers, and Malefic Lords (who also happen to have access to some seriously potent powers outside of Smite).

Right. Just wanted to make sure people didn't want to nerf them too.

I just played a game with 5 Inquisitors (I am playing an Inquisitorial Conclave) and I think I cast smite with every one every turn because their other powers are so bad.

The more I think about it the more I am surprised there isn't a total rule of one with psyker powers including smite. I think AoS handles this a bit better even though there are quite a few spells that dish out mortal wounds. Would a rule of one clean this spam up? Are there any physical counters to smite spam?

 warhead01 wrote:
The more I think about it the more I am surprised there isn't a total rule of one with psyker powers including smite. I think AoS handles this a bit better even though there are quite a few spells that dish out mortal wounds. Would a rule of one clean this spam up? Are there any physical counters to smite spam?

Orks and Chaos lose their competitive edge, Grey Knights and Thousand Sons would be even more unplayable, and Magnus would be the only caster using Smite.

Bad move.

I am firmly on the side of "Smite is fine, but cheap characters with full Smite is the problem"

There is no sweeping change that can "fix" Smite spam without utterly neutering more expensive Psykers, or Psyker heavy armies that rely on having Smite because you cannot duplicate powers that other psykers in the same army may have already cast.

The correct solution is to:
A) give cheaper Psykers "diet" Smite in the same way as Eldar Warlocks and many GK units or
B) make cheapo Psykers with full Smite twice as expensive (specifically Malefic lords, etc)

Smite is a good game mechanic in that you can wound enemy units that would otherwise be untouchable.

 Primark G wrote:
Smite is a good game mechanic in that you can wound enemy units that would otherwise be untouchable.

You know what else is a good mechanic?

Not making units unhittable or untargetable in the first place.

Galef wrote:I am firmly on the side of "Smite is fine, but cheap characters with full Smite is the problem"

There is no sweeping change that can "fix" Smite spam without utterly neutering more expensive Psykers, or Psyker heavy armies that rely on having Smite because you cannot duplicate powers that other psykers in the same army may have already cast.

The correct solution is to:
A) give cheaper Psykers "diet" Smite in the same way as Eldar Warlocks and many GK units or
B) make cheapo Psykers with full Smite twice as expensive (specifically Malefic lords, etc)

What if there was a way to make Smite more dangerous to the cheap-o users?

MagicJuggler wrote:

You know what else is a good mechanic?

Not making units unhittable or untargetable in the first place.

Woah now, that's Crazy Talk!

(By the way, props for the Chairman Yang avatar!)

M.

A bigger issue is the lack of good spells to cast. Smite is simply a useful spell, vs gaze of the emporer which could be as low as 2", or terrifying visions that lower leadership on a unit that may or may not need to take a leadership test later that turn. Psychic barrier is awesome, but you cast it once then that's it for truly useful, go to spells. All you have left is smite. Heck, gaze doesn't even have the range of smite, it's really not reliable.

So maybe the problem is not smite, it's the fact that you only cast other spells once and half of the options are not that good.

Maybe chapter approved will give us new spells to replace smite with. That would be cool.

 Galef wrote:
I am firmly on the side of "Smite is fine, but cheap characters with full Smite is the problem"

There is no sweeping change that can "fix" Smite spam without utterly neutering more expensive Psykers, or Psyker heavy armies that rely on having Smite because you cannot duplicate powers that other psykers in the same army may have already cast.

The correct solution is to:
A) give cheaper Psykers "diet" Smite in the same way as Eldar Warlocks and many GK units or
B) make cheapo Psykers with full Smite twice as expensive (specifically Malefic lords, etc)

yeah - exactly

Eh, it's kind of good.

But it's not game winning.

I've both evaded it and tanked it. Anyway, reliance on dealing Mortal Wounds is just that... reliance on a thing to happen. Smiting is not horrible but it's boring.

Love all these Guard players who aren't bothered by smite spam.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Love all these Guard players who aren't bothered by smite spam.

Dunno, I plan to run a lot of tanks...

M.

 Primark G wrote:
Smite is a good game mechanic in that you can wound enemy units that would otherwise be untouchable.

Nothing in 8th is untouchable. Everything can wound everything.

FRFSRF vs Russ ... GO!

M.

As long as there are units/armies that part points for durability via T/Sv inexpensive smite spam is a problem.

As a game designer, providing expensive survivability and then selling a way around it for two pennies is just sloppy.

 znelson wrote:
As long as there are units/armies that part points for durability via T/Sv inexpensive smite spam is a problem.

As a game designer, providing expensive survivability and then selling a way around it for two pennies is just sloppy.

To be fair, it is cheap with 2 important limitations. A short range (one of the shortest) and no control over target (you have to target the closest unit). Being so short a range means players will bring those characters forward which makes exposing them easier. Not having control over targets makes manipulating their positioning easier.

It's not a pure dmg output vs cost.

The main problem with smite isn't with smite itself: it is the existence of models far too underpiriced/overpowered.

That said there was a rumour that they were going to nerf consecutive smites in chapter approved and I hope that is true.

Earth127 wrote:
The main problem with smite isn't with smite itself: it is the existence of models far too underpiriced/overpowered.

That said there was a rumour that they were going to nerf consecutive smites in chapter approved and I hope that is true.

Having to roll equal to or over the previous roll for a successfully manifested psychic power and removing duplicates altogether would be a great idea.