This was pointed out in another thread, the "Librarian on Bike" datasheets from the Index are still locked to the Index power lists, correct?

The designers commentary has an explicit instruction:

Does Your Model Have A Datasheet In A Codex? > No > Use The Index Version Of Your Model’s Datasheet

And there is no exception to use codex powers like there is to use codex wargear profiles and points.

Am I right in thinking this or did I miss an FAQ somewhere?

I've thought this and very unsure. Same as Librarians like Magister Sevrin Loth in the Forge World Astartes book... they refer specifically to the Index psychic powers, even giving a page reference.

Knowing what we know now about the speed they were written and the Quality Control resources applied to these books, it's hard to imagine they meant that they would never have access to the full suite - they were just giving reference to the books available right now.

I think it would be a very harsh TO/opponent to say "no you can only use the index powers".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This was pointed out in another thread, the "Librarian on Bike" datasheets from the Index are still locked to the Index power lists, correct?

RAW, yes.

It was stated that you only use the index for points purposes if there are rules for the relevant wargear, special rules in the codex. Other than that you use the codex for it's rules if the rules are there

Look up the designer commentary, at the end they have What datasheet rules should i use?

mchammadad wrote:
It was stated that you only use the index for points purposes if there are rules for the relevant wargear, special rules in the codex. Other than that you use the codex for it's rules if the rules are there

Look up the designer commentary, at the end they have What datasheet rules should i use?

I literally posted the designers commentary rules in my OP. I'll post them here again.

Does Your Model Have A Datasheet In A Codex? > No > Use The Index Version Of Your Model’s Datasheet

The fact is that the Librarian on Bike doesn't appear in the codex, it's Index only. Not just wargear, the entire datasheet. Did you read the OP or did you just post a reply without reading?

The index datasheet says to use psychic powers from pg. 10, from the index. The designers commentary allows you to use wargear from the index if those aren't in the codex.

p5freak wrote:
The index datasheet says to use psychic powers from pg. 10, from the index. The designers commentary allows you to use wargear from the index if those aren't in the codex.

And Powers are not Wargear.

RAW, yes you can only use this Index Powers.

This is not surprising given the general consensus that the Index is a temporary soon to be dropped stopgap to keep people quiet a significant number of their models will soon be unplayable. I'm sure any friendly opponent will happily houserule you can use the full list, otherwise enquire with your TO.

If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

That's from a WHC article. Seems like anyone can use all powers if Deathwatch can.

The only argument I can think of is Thousand Sons - while they were mentioned specifically in an article to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline, it's still a precedent. Their index datasheets say to use the Hereticus discipline on page 10 of the index, yet we know that now that the Hereticus discipline has a full range of powers, the Thousand Sons have access to the full range.

It's the same situation here, minus 1k Sons being specifically stated to use the full discipline. But if someone wanted to use that as a precedent (along with the deathwatch example above) that would be good enough for me. I don't think their intention is to lock anything to index powers only, especially considering an index-only army has access to codex powers.

But RAW, if there's no exception for it, there's no exception for it.

Jacksmiles wrote:
The only argument I can think of is Thousand Sons - while they were mentioned specifically in an article to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline,

That article no longer exists as far as I can tell.

 Ghaz wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
The only argument I can think of is Thousand Sons - while they were mentioned specifically in an article to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline,

That article no longer exists as far as I can tell.

It's almost like relying on stuff that isn't official FAQ or Errata is a bad idea.

Sounds like RAW yes you can only use index powers

this seems like the kinda thing you should email GW rules team about and try and squeeze it into the next faq.

 Ghaz wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
The only argument I can think of is Thousand Sons - while they were mentioned specifically in an article to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline,

That article no longer exists as far as I can tell.

It was goofy to me that it was in an article anyway. If they really wanted that to be rules or the general way to play, it needs to be in an actual rules document.

Also - yup, article is gone I guess. Clicked a link to it and got a 404. Is the article for the Deathwatch still up?

This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.

I disagree. You cannot, by definition, be "punitive" when applying the RaW. You either follow the rules or you don't. Might as well argue that enforcing that you only hit on a 3+ when your BS3+ is punitive.

My two cents:

So, after reading the Index and the Heretic Astartes book, I would argue that the Index sheets totally have access to the psychic powers in the Codex.

Why?

First: When you look at the index entry for Magnus, it tell you he can take X powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline (pg11)

The (pg11) is not part of Dark Hereticus. It is a referential note in the sentence (hence why it is in Brackets). If it were a restricting factor, it would say 'on page 11' in the actual rule. You should be able to remove the words in brackets and still have a functional sentence.

Second: The Heretic Astartes book also includes a 'Dark Hereticus' list of psychic powers. The Index entry says that Magnus can take powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline. Well the Heretic Astartes book just so happens to include a Dark Hereticus Discipline. So, go ahead and pick from it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

That's from a WHC article. Seems like anyone can use all powers if Deathwatch can.

I'll just go ahead and quote myself in the hope someone reads it thisntime.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

That's from a WHC article. Seems like anyone can use all powers if Deathwatch can.

I'll just go ahead and quote myself in the hope someone reads it thisntime.

I referenced your post in my first one (but it's easy to miss). Also asked if that article is still up, because the one for Thousand Sons is not. (I assume it is though, as you 99.99% likely copy pasted from it, but just asking to be sure).

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

That's from a WHC article. Seems like anyone can use all powers if Deathwatch can.

I'll just go ahead and quote myself in the hope someone reads it thisntime.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

This is the article.

First problem is that it's not rules, it's just a blog.

Second problem is that it doesn't actually answer the question. Since it's suggesting that the marine subfactions take their librarian datasheet from the codex that librarian would, of course, have access to the codex powers per it's datasheet. It doesn't tell you what to do about using an index librarian where the datasheet tells you to use the index powers.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.

I disagree. You cannot, by definition, be "punitive" when applying the RaW. You either follow the rules or you don't. Might as well argue that enforcing that you only hit on a 3+ when your BS3+ is punitive.

Except no tournament organizer is going to impose this restriction, and your false equivalence is ridiculous.

The character was created with the limitation that they choose their powers from the index. There is no ruling that says that you can choose from your codex when it comes out. Therefore since the model is from the index the powers associated with it should come from the index unless ruled otherwise.

As to TOs- Hyperbole much? I doubt that you've talked with every TO and they've all responded as you claim. If I were a TO I would rule as I stated above and I don't think that I'm being unreasonable in any manner.

Rather than arguing about it, email the FAQ email address. There's no point in falling out and throwing in dumb false equivalences when there's no real RAW basis for saying there's a restriction and no hard RAW evidence there is permision to choose Codex powers.

I'd imagine Index Librarians can freely choose from the Codex powers. Every time someone attempts to restrict what players can take it seems GW go "nah it's cool, use the latest stuff". See Wargear for reference.

Yes this is all HIWPI. Yes the article I posted wasn't Rules material etc etc - I did note that it was a hint at likely intent. But honestly, trying to say "That Librarian only has a choice of three powers" is crazy to me. If it's a Tournament ask the TO. Outside of that just let your opponent choose from the full power set. Why be difficult? I just don't get it.

Edit: tone is of bewilderment not anger - read back and realised sounded ranty. Not meant that way! More a "why can't we all just get along?" thing hahaha.

 Marmatag wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.

I disagree. You cannot, by definition, be "punitive" when applying the RaW. You either follow the rules or you don't. Might as well argue that enforcing that you only hit on a 3+ when your BS3+ is punitive.

Except no tournament organizer is going to impose this restriction, and your false equivalence is ridiculous.

I am organising a tournament, and I will enforce this. Thus your reasoning is flawed.

Korbee11 wrote:
My two cents:

So, after reading the Index and the Heretic Astartes book, I would argue that the Index sheets totally have access to the psychic powers in the Codex.

Why?

First: When you look at the index entry for Magnus, it tell you he can take X powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline (pg11)

The (pg11) is not part of Dark Hereticus. It is a referential note in the sentence (hence why it is in Brackets). If it were a restricting factor, it would say 'on page 11' in the actual rule. You should be able to remove the words in brackets and still have a functional sentence.

Second: The Heretic Astartes book also includes a 'Dark Hereticus' list of psychic powers. The Index entry says that Magnus can take powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline. Well the Heretic Astartes book just so happens to include a Dark Hereticus Discipline. So, go ahead and pick from it.

I agree with this. RAW you can take codex powers, because brackets are only clarifications, not part of the rule.
RAI i don't think there is any doubt that you can. We have precedents, it's logical and it wouldn't make sense for those powers that were nerfed from index to codex if you could take the older version with an index only model.

That makes no sense. That's like saying I can take my Ad Mech as ULTRAMARINES and get the bonuses from Girlyman, something which is explicitly forbidden.

Korbee11 wrote:
My two cents:

So, after reading the Index and the Heretic Astartes book, I would argue that the Index sheets totally have access to the psychic powers in the Codex.

Why?

First: When you look at the index entry for Magnus, it tell you he can take X powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline (pg11)

The (pg11) is not part of Dark Hereticus. It is a referential note in the sentence (hence why it is in Brackets). If it were a restricting factor, it would say 'on page 11' in the actual rule. You should be able to remove the words in brackets and still have a functional sentence.

Second: The Heretic Astartes book also includes a 'Dark Hereticus' list of psychic powers. The Index entry says that Magnus can take powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline. Well the Heretic Astartes book just so happens to include a Dark Hereticus Discipline. So, go ahead and pick from it.

Good explanation. Agreed.

1) Let's all remember to follow RULE #1

2) Is it really that hard to remember how to spell 'Guilliman'?

 Alpharius wrote:
2) Is it really that hard to remember how to spell 'Guilliman'?

Rowboat Girlyman is the best of the Primarks. But we all know that he was replaced by Alpharius mid Heresy anyway thanks to Poundland meddling.

But to get back on topic, the logic presented here that the page reference doesn't matter and you can just substitute rules from other codexes if the names happen to be similar is faulty and simply wrong. It's explicitly telling you to use the rule on that page, not some other page in some other book.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
2) Is it really that hard to remember how to spell 'Guilliman'?

Rowboat Girlyman is the best of the Primarks. But we all know that he was replaced by Alpharius mid Heresy anyway thanks to Poundland meddling.

But to get back on topic, the logic presented here that the page reference doesn't matter and you can just substitute rules from other codexes if the names happen to be similar is faulty and simply wrong. It's explicitly telling you to use the rule on that page, not some other page in some other book.

What you describe (ultramarine flavored adeptus) is perfectly doable and stopped only by a specific FAQ.

The page reference in the bracket is just a commodity, let's not give it rule dignity. There is only one list that can be identified as "InsertName" discipline, which like profiles appears in many versions, and it is only logical to use the most up to date. Names are always the disambiguation keys in GW publications. GW has already officially stated, for example, that 2 powers with the same name are the same power even if they have different effects.
I really can't find a reason to not allow the full selection.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
2) Is it really that hard to remember how to spell 'Guilliman'?

Rowboat Girlyman is the best of the Primarks. But we all know that he was replaced by Alpharius mid Heresy anyway thanks to Poundland meddling.

But to get back on topic, the logic presented here that the page reference doesn't matter and you can just substitute rules from other codexes if the names happen to be similar is faulty and simply wrong. It's explicitly telling you to use the rule on that page, not some other page in some other book.

If they change wargear costs with future errata but a units entry specifically references a page within the codex defining its wargear, does that mean you can't use the most recent errata?

Bottom line they know x from librarius, the definition of librarius can evolve over time via errata or new releases.

If a book is misprinted with an incorrect page number on a units entry, would that mean it couldn't take any psychic powers despite the obvious mention it knows x from librarius.

Spoletta wrote:
The page reference in the bracket is just a commodity, let's not give it rule dignity.

Please show me in the rulebook where it says words in brackets are not rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The page reference in the bracket is just a commodity, let's not give it rule dignity.

Please show me in the rulebook where it says words in brackets are not rules.

I find it highly interesting mr BCB that I get to say this to you.

There doesn't need to be a rule in the rulebook, it is called 'The English Language' and 'Sentence Structure'

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/punctuation/parentheses-and-brackets

Round brackets are used to separate off information that is not essential to the meaning of the rest of the sentence. If you remove the bracketed material, the sentence would still make perfectly good sense.

So no. There is no rule in the rulebook, as there does not have to be a rule in the rulebook.
Cause, as you have said in other threads, that's how the English Language works.

They are also used to give clarifications and additions to the previous sentence. The English language is vague enough to allow for the parenthesised text to be important. Would it be more "correct" to use a comma clause? Yes, but then so is using "he or she" instead of "they" and we all know how much Tumblr rage that causes.

In any case this is not a case where you can try and claim language backs up your case, because it simply doesn't.

Example:
Page 181 BRB: If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature, add 1 to its models’ saving throws against shooting attacks to represent the cover received from the terrain (invulnerable saves are unaffected).

By your logic, I can apply the cover bonus to invulnerable saves.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
2) Is it really that hard to remember how to spell 'Guilliman'?

Rowboat Girlyman is the best of the Primarks. But we all know that he was replaced by Alpharius mid Heresy anyway thanks to Poundland meddling.

But to get back on topic, the logic presented here that the page reference doesn't matter and you can just substitute rules from other codexes if the names happen to be similar is faulty and simply wrong. It's explicitly telling you to use the rule on that page, not some other page in some other book.

This 'redirect' thing comes up a lot and most don't seem to find it hard to update to the latest versions of things.

Hanging onto page numbers from stopgap books published before the Codex doesn't feel appropriate. The Indexes were designed to be temporary and page references are therefore necessarily mutable. Same for FW armies using Astra Militarum vehicles. Same for Marine things that get Codex traits and rules even though the Index doesn't include them. It also just feels like a weird way to get one over on someone even before a game, claiming a rules basis for hobbling their unit. That's just not even fun.

Korbee11 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The page reference in the bracket is just a commodity, let's not give it rule dignity.

Please show me in the rulebook where it says words in brackets are not rules.

I find it highly interesting mr BCB that I get to say this to you.

There doesn't need to be a rule in the rulebook, it is called 'The English Language' and 'Sentence Structure'

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/punctuation/parentheses-and-brackets

Round brackets are used to separate off information that is not essential to the meaning of the rest of the sentence. If you remove the bracketed material, the sentence would still make perfectly good sense.

So no. There is no rule in the rulebook, as there does not have to be a rule in the rulebook.
Cause, as you have said in other threads, that's how the English Language works.

I present "Grinding Advance"

The Leman Russ tank's sturdy frame allows it to keep up a fearsome rate of fire even as it advances on the foe. If this model remains stationary or moves under half speed in its Movement phase (i.e. it moves a distance in inches less than half of its current Move characteristic) it can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting phase (the turret weapon must target the same unit both times). Furthermore, hit rolls for this model's turret weapon do not suffer the penalty for moving and shooting a Heavy weapon. The following weapons are turret weapons: battle cannon, eradicator nova cannon, exterminator autocannon, vanquisher battle cannon, demolisher cannon, executioner plasma cannon and punisher gatling cannon.

If brackets aren't rules I'm split-firing my second volley then, right?

No, that actually supports Korbee11's point:

"... it can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting phase ( the turret weapon must target the same unit both time.)"

Here, as per the rules of English Language, the parenthesis is being used in lieu of a conjunction. Even if the parenthesis shall not be there, as long as it is substituted by any conjunction, only for the sake of maintaining grammatical coherency, it will maintain its meaning.

Substitute parenthesis with any conjunction that logically connects the two independant clauses: and, but, however, although, etc, and the meaning of the phrase maintains itself.

 skchsan wrote:
No, that actually supports Korbee11's point:

"... it can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting phase ( the turret weapon must target the same unit both time.)"

Here, as per the rules of English Language, the parenthesis is being used in lieu of a conjunction. Even if the parenthesis shall not be there, as long as it is substituted by any conjunction, only for the sake of maintaining grammatical coherency, it will maintain its meaning.

Substitute parenthesis with any conjunction that logically connects the two independant clauses: and, but, however, although, etc, and the meaning of the phrase maintains itself.

The notion was that the sections within parentheses are not rules. That's what I'm arguing.

The bits within brackets blatantly are rules. Making a sentence make sense with or without the bracketed section is not the same as the rule meaning the same without the bracketed section. It needs both parts to function correctly, whatever the grammar.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The bits within brackets blatantly are rules. Making a sentence make sense with or without the bracketed section is not the same as the rule meaning the same without the bracketed section. It needs both parts to function correctly, whatever the grammar.

So they are rules but we should (according to you) throw out that bit on the index datasheet about powers and substitute new text pointing to a different book without any instructions to do so?

"In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets."
Instruction to do so. Indexing can become superseded by new publications.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
"In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets."
Instruction to do so. Indexing can become superseded by new publications.

No permission there to edit a datasheet.

The Librarius discipline isn't on a Datasheet.

The Codex updates the Librarius discipline.

Ergo 'Index Librarians' can use all the Codex powers, by the instructions GW have given us around 'most recent rules'.

Saying otherwise is ignoring GW's instructions.

Ok, lets assume index librarians can use codex psychic powers. What happens if a BA librarian on a bike casts wings of sanguinius ? The stratagem says his movement is increased to 12". But its already 14". How can it be increased to 12 if its already 14 ? What is its new movement value ? 12 or 14 ?

Korbee11 wrote:My two cents:

So, after reading the Index and the Heretic Astartes book, I would argue that the Index sheets totally have access to the psychic powers in the Codex.

Why?

First: When you look at the index entry for Magnus, it tell you he can take X powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline (pg11)

The (pg11) is not part of Dark Hereticus. It is a referential note in the sentence (hence why it is in Brackets). If it were a restricting factor, it would say 'on page 11' in the actual rule. You should be able to remove the words in brackets and still have a functional sentence.

Second: The Heretic Astartes book also includes a 'Dark Hereticus' list of psychic powers. The Index entry says that Magnus can take powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline. Well the Heretic Astartes book just so happens to include a Dark Hereticus Discipline. So, go ahead and pick from it.

Wrong. The fact Deathwatch needed special permission to use Codex one tells you everything you need to know - that you keep using Index one, unless allowed otherwise.

I must say, I like how DW getting a bone thrown for once and not being worse kind of SM is instantly rules-lawyered using obscure English language definitions (that obviously don't apply to rule verbiage, only to plain prose) as a "precedent" (instead of what it really is, an exception) to allow people fishing for whatever broken combo was banned by the Codex to double-dip and cherrypick even more explicitly no-go stuff on top of that

Marmatag wrote:This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.

Nope. It's the Index crowd wanting to have a cake and eat it too at the same time.

Especially seeing Codex psychic tables were intended for and balanced for Codex units, like p5freak pointed out. Adding deep strike or insane speed to casters might turn balanced powers into insanely broken combos, so any sane TO would rule you to use power set the unit was designed with, not whatever abusable mix you might come up with.

 Irbis wrote:

Especially seeing Codex psychic tables were intended for and balanced for Codex units, like p5freak pointed out. Adding deep strike or insane speed to casters might turn balanced powers into insanely broken combos, so any sane TO would rule you to use power set the unit was designed with, not whatever abusable mix you might come up with.

My question was not about showing possible balancing issues because BA have a librarian dreadnought which then can move 12 and fly. Which is insanely broken if you think about it, but its legal and no doubt that its intended.

Actually per the codex "Before the battle, generate the Psychic powers for Psykers (keyword) that can use powers from the Librarius discipline using the table below.

So regardless of what page the index tells you to get psychic powers from. The codex tell you to use the table on pg. 202 to generate powers before the battle.

So a Index datasheet Librarian on a bike CAN use powers from the Codex. He is a Psyker (keyword) and can use powers from the Librarius discipline.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Actually per the codex "Before the battle, generate the Psychic powers for Psykers (keyword) that can use powers from the Librarius discipline using the table below.

So regardless of what page the index tells you to get psychic powers from. The codex tell you to use the table on pg. 202 to generate powers before the battle.

So a Index datasheet Librarian on a bike CAN use powers from the Codex. He is a Psyker (keyword) and can use powers from the Librarius discipline.

You're wrong. Designers commentary last page clearly tells us to us the index datasheet. The index datasheet tells us to use psychic powers from the index.

The Index Datasheet says to use the Librarius discipline. The Codex updates that. Job done.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Index Datasheet says to use the Librarius discipline. The Codex updates that. Job done.

No. Read the designers commentary : "Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of
which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Doesnt say anything about psychic powers.

Good gods, people really hate people playing with their toys, don't they? That's about the most pedantic thing I've seen. Of course the Codex powers update the Index ones.

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Index Datasheet says to use the Librarius discipline. The Codex updates that. Job done.

No. Read the designers commentary : "Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of
which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Doesnt say anything about psychic powers.

Yup. You can't change the actual datasheet, only the weapon options, weapon rules and points. This is the same reason why Wolf Lords still use the Index datasheet.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good gods, people really hate people playing with their toys, don't they? That's about the most pedantic thing I've seen. Of course the Codex powers update the Index ones.

I dont see anything in the designers commentary that says that the psychic powers are updated.

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good gods, people really hate people playing with their toys, don't they? That's about the most pedantic thing I've seen. Of course the Codex powers update the Index ones.

I dont see anything in the designers commentary that says that the psychic powers are updated.

The codex tells you that all your factions psykers use the codex table. Codex overrides index as we have to use the latest version of the rules.

The codex doesn't alter the index power list.

RAW: I agree with the "it's not updated" faction.
HIWPI: Feel free to use the full discipline.

Thoroughly enjoyed the brackets argument though (even though that argument was pretty idiotic). The concept of "stuff in brackets doesn't count" is quite fun (since it's so dumb).

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The codex tells you that all your factions psykers use the codex table. Codex overrides index as we have to use the latest version of the rules.

All codex psykers use codex powers. All index psykers use index powers. Index psykers are old school, they dont know the new stuff

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The codex doesn't alter the index power list.

But is it called the same discipline? (I don't have the new SM codex). It's Librarius correct?

Using Eldar as an example, the Index has 2 disciplines for Eldar: Runes of Fate for Farseers & Runes of Battle for Warlocks, Spiritseers, etc.
In the Index, there are only 3 powers in each discipline.
The Codex has both of these same disciplines, but with 6 powers each.

I cannot think of a situation with a Psyker that wasn't updated to the Codex, but if there was an Index only option (Like a Autarch with Warp jump generator), if it says that Psyker uses either Runes of Fate or Battle, you absolutely would use the CODEX version of that discipline as that is the most updated version
The Flow chart GW put out specifically uses the Autarch as an example. Even though you can take a Warp Jump Autarch, you use the points and rules updated in the Codex where possible (so you would use the Codex Path of Command rule)

So I'll rephrase my question:
Was the Discipline the Index Libbie on bike has access to updated in the Codex?
If the bike Libbie had access to Librarius in the Index and Librarius was updated in the Codex, you may use the Codex Librarius. No need for FAQ, GW has already provided the flow chart that confirms this

-

They have the same names. The index only has 3 powers whereas the codex has 6.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
They have the same names. The index only has 3 powers whereas the codex has 6.

Thank you. Then refer to the flow chart which says you may, nah MUST, use the updated points and/or rules where possible.
In this case, the Index Libbie on bike has Librarus, which was indeed updated. Ergo, you have access to all 6 powers

Official GW flow chart:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/IndexOrCodex.jpg

So you use the Index datasheet, which says you use Librarus. Since nothing gives you further permission to use the Index version of Librarus. you MUST use the Codes version

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 Galef wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
They have the same names. The index only has 3 powers whereas the codex has 6.

Thank you. Then refer to the flow chart which says you may, nah MUST, use the updated points and/or rules where possible.
In this case, the Index Libbie on bike has Librarus, which was indeed updated. Ergo, you have access to all 6 powers

There is no wiggle room.
I'll post the flow chart when I find it

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OMG The chart has been already been qouted here.

"Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Like you said no wiggle room. Doesnt say anything about psychic powers.

Well, let me alter my position to be a bit more clear:

The Index tells you to use the Librarus Discipline...which has been updated and is NOT listed on the Index datasheet (aside from name).
The Index datasheet says you may use the Librarus discipline, which is CURRENLY located in the CODEX
Please state what rule allows you to use an Index Discipline that is outdated?

It would be different if the Index datasheet said you may use powers A, B and C from the Librarus discipline, but it does not. It just says you may use powers from the Librarus discipline.
And again, these powers are currently located in the Codex.

Then what is the Librarius power list in the Index, if I might ask, if it's not a Libarius power list?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Then what is the Librarius power list in the Index, if I might ask, if it's not a Libarius power list?

It is outdated piece of rules which is no longer used. Like all your 7th edition books.

 Crimson wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Then what is the Librarius power list in the Index, if I might ask, if it's not a Libarius power list?

It is outdated piece of rules which is no longer used. Like all your 7th edition books.

Oh! I presume you have evidence to show that?

Y'know, since you've chosen a biker librarian from the index, which informs me that the book has not categorically been replaced, like all my 7th edition books have.

I really have no energy to argue. This is one of those things which are an easy way to find people you don't want to play with.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Then what is the Librarius power list in the Index, if I might ask, if it's not a Libarius power list?

It is outdated piece of rules which is no longer used. Like all your 7th edition books.

Oh! I presume you have evidence to show that?

Y'know, since you've chosen a biker librarian from the index, which informs me that the book has not categorically been replaced, like all my 7th edition books have.

The book itself has yet to be replaced (although I suspect it may be once all Codices are released). But GW has made it abundantly clear that if and updated version of any rule exists, you use that version.
This is true of points and wargear for sure, but why would it not be true to psychic disciplines.

I mean, we needed several FAQs and a flow chart just to know that it is ok to use options NOT included in the Codex in the first place.
If you cannot see this as a clear demonstration that GW assumes everyone will uses the most updated version of a thing, I cannot go any further. GW was nice enough to allow Bike Libbies, Warp Jump Autarch and Twin Autocannon Dreads, but in every other instance we are supposed to use updated versions where possible.

It really is silly to use a Datasheet that says you can use X and not be able to use the most recent version of X, UNLESS X is clearly defined on said Datasheet. The Librarus discipline is not laid out on any Datasheet, much less the Index ones. And none of the FAQs or Erratas allowing the use of Index datasheets or options also give you permission to use Index psychic disciplines

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Alright, I accept that. One could press the point that "psychic powers" aren't on the list of things used from the new codex, but yeah, I'm convinced, generally, because I think that argument is weak.

 Galef wrote:
Well, let me alter my position to be a bit more clear:

The Index tells you to use the Librarus Discipline...which has been updated and is NOT listed on the Index datasheet (aside from name).
The Index datasheet says you may use the Librarus discipline, which is CURRENLY located in the CODEX
Please state what rule allows you to use an Index Discipline that is outdated?

The designers commentary gives specific instructions to use the index datasheet. And the index datasheet gives specific instructions to use the librarius discipline from the index. It even specifies the page in the index, which is 10 for SM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
But GW has made it abundantly clear that if and updated version of any rule exists, you use that version. This is true of points and wargear for sure, but why would it not be true to psychic disciplines.

I dont know why they excluded psychic disciplines, ask them. RAW is crystal clear.

 Galef wrote:

GW was nice enough to allow Bike Libbies, Warp Jump Autarch and Twin Autocannon Dreads, but in every other instance we are supposed to use updated versions where possible.

Except psychic disciplines.

 Galef wrote:
And none of the FAQs or Erratas allowing the use of Index datasheets or options also give you permission to use Index psychic disciplines

What ? The index datasheet clearly states what psychic disciplines you can use. There is no need for further instructions.

Other Indexes also reference page number for things later superceded by Codex entries, cf Guard tanks in R&H/DKoK armies. It's almost as if they couldn't psychically (see what I did there?) predict future page numbers in future books. That's where the powers were at the time so they told you where they were... now they're in the Codex, because the Librarius discipline has been updated, and the catch-all "use latest stuff" instruction tells us to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I really have no energy to argue. This is one of those things which are an easy way to find people you don't want to play with.

Very much agreed!

Just so that my stance is clear, I do not play SM. I have some for collection purposes and to play small games at home with my kids.

I am arguing for an objective (well, what I hope is objective) stand point that Marine players have Librarians on Bikes that they have converted and used when they were a perfectly valid option. Meaning when a Librarian had a single datasheet with access to a full discipline of power and could be give a Bike to ride.

It isn't fair that GW decided to A) split that option into a separate unit then B) decide not to include it in the codex because an official model doesn't exist.
A Librarian is still a Librarian whether or not he has a piece of metal on wheels between his legs.

While I see your point that the Index datasheet does say to use the Librarus discipline and you can assume from the same book, it also does NOT reference the Index.
Looking at my Index copy it says "...It know Smite and 2 powers from the Libraruis discipline (pg 10)"
Is there a Librarius Discipline in the Codex? Yes. - Is it on pg 10? I don't know, but probably not.

Does a referenced page number matter to "confirm" which book you should be getting the relevant rules from?
I would (and am) argue a big fat NO. I've played this game long enough to see plenty of Codex entries reference page number in the main rule book, only for that rule book to be updated and the page number no longer match the new AND CURRENT rules.

It is no different in this case. We have an updated Librarius discipline and a unit (which we are being give special permission to use in the first place) that can use the Librarius discipline.
There is only 1 current Librarius discipline and it has 6 powers available.

To argue otherwise is a middle finger to SM players who own Bike Librarians.

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 Galef wrote:
Just so that my stance is clear, I do not play SM. I have some for collection purposes and to play small games at home with my kids.

I do play SM, sort of.

 Galef wrote:

It isn't fair that GW decided to A) split that option into a separate unit then B) decide not to include it in the codex because an official model doesn't exist.
A Librarian is still a Librarian whether or not he has a piece of metal on wheels between his legs.

True, its not fair. And i have no idea why GW doesnt let index librarians use the codex psychic disciplines. Anyway, that there isnt an official model is not an argument, because there is a lot of stuff that isnt available from GW but the models is still being sold. Multimeltas for dreads dont exist, but dreads are still available. Twin plasmaguns for razorbacks dont exist, razorbacks are still available.

 Galef wrote:

While I see your point that the Index datasheet does say to use the Librarus discipline and you can assume from the same book, it also does NOT reference the Index.
Looking at my Index copy it says "...It know Smite and 2 powers from the Libraruis discipline (pg 10)"
Is there a Librarius Discipline in the Codex? Yes. - Is it on pg 10? I don't know, but probably not.

The index datasheet dont tell you to look in the codex, neither do the designers commentary give you permission to use the codex psychic disciplines. The index is still valid, and there is a librarius discipline on pg. 10.

 Galef wrote:


It is no different in this case. We have an updated Librarius discipline and a unit (which we are being give special permission to use in the first place) that can use the Librarius discipline.
There is only 1 current Librarius discipline and it has 6 powers available.

-

The codex also tells you explicitly to use the updated librarius discipline for all Psykers which can use powers from the librarius discipline. This clearly includes index psykers as the dicipine has the same name, superseding the instructions on the index. You could still use the index table if you wanted o guess, if you didn't have the codex.

Thanks Captyn_Bob! I didn't even catch that. That's a pretty definitive answer in my book

I think a lesson we can all learn from this is that GW has rules spread across too many sources and if you do not have all the pieces, you can make the wrong conclusion.
This was actually one of my concerns when GW announced that Codices were coming back. While the Indexes were not perfect, at least the rules were in fewer sources

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edit: ah already covered

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The codex also tells you explicitly to use the updated librarius discipline for all Psykers which can use powers from the librarius discipline. This clearly includes index psykers as the dicipine has the same name, superseding the instructions on the index. You could still use the index table if you wanted o guess, if you didn't have the codex.

Where does it say that ? Page ?

p5freak wrote:

Where does it say that ? Page ?

202.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The codex also tells you explicitly to use the updated librarius discipline for all Psykers which can use powers from the librarius discipline. This clearly includes index psykers as the dicipine has the same name, superseding the instructions on the index. You could still use the index table if you wanted o guess, if you didn't have the codex.

 Crimson wrote:

p5freak wrote:

Where does it say that ? Page ?
202.

I dont see that anywhere on p. 202. All it says is to generate pychic powers for psykers that can use powers from the librarian discipline using the table below. If you follow the instructions on the designers commentarys last page you never get access to the codex. Pick a librarian from the index, pick psychic powers from the index.

p5freak wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The codex also tells you explicitly to use the updated librarius discipline for all Psykers which can use powers from the librarius discipline. This clearly includes index psykers as the dicipine has the same name, superseding the instructions on the index. You could still use the index table if you wanted o guess, if you didn't have the codex.

 Crimson wrote:

p5freak wrote:

Where does it say that ? Page ?
202.

I dont see that anywhere on p. 202. All it says is to generate pychic powers for psykers that can use powers from the librarian discipline using the table below. If you follow the instructions on the designers commentarys last page you never get access to the codex. Pick a librarian from the index, pick psychic powers from the index.

Is the Librarian on a bike a psyker using the Librarius discipline? Then he gets his powers from the codex using the table. That supercedes what it says for Librarius in the index. It really is that simple.

Is it page 202 of the Codex and you looked at pg 202 of the Index?
If the Codex says you use the update discipline for ALL psykers that access that discipline, that pretty much puts this issue to bed.

Librarian on Bike isn't in the codex, so you can't use the updated rules for it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Librarian on Bike isn't in the codex, so you can't use the updated rules for it.

Oh yes you can!

"Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERS that can use powers from the Librarius discipline using the table below."

Index Librarians qualify for this. Also all other instructions tell us that index units get Chapter Tactics etc. So sorry, Librarians on Bikes haven't forgotten three powers compared to their brethren. Codex updates discipline, Codex tells us to use updated table for Psykers. QED. There's literally no valid argument against this, RAW or RAI.

Actually, the designers would intend that models in an index/codex would only use rules from either the BRB or the book in which that model is in. Therefore index models would only use index rules (the psychic powers from the index). Historically GW has given the same name to different powers so just because 2 rules have the same name does not mean that models get to choose which of the rules to use. The codex does not say that models that are only found in the index get to use some/all codex rules. The designers gave a specific list of which index rules get updated to the codex and psychic rules are not among them. Ergo, index psykers use index powers.

Which ignores the sentence I just quoted, which is a more up-to-date directive on how to choose powers. Other than that you might have been fine, but that one line blows your argument out of the water.

Not at all. Your statement refers only to models in your book. It does not say that psykers from the index can use that table. If the designers had listed psychic powers as something to convert from index to codex then you would be correct. You don't have permission to give index models the usage of their codex except in specific circumstances none of which cover psyker abilities.
As I stated, in the past GW has had instances of 2 abilities with the same name but having different rules. At this point in time we can only presume that there are 2 different rules labelled "Libarius disciplines".

Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.

Is the Bike Libbie in your army/detachment? Yes
Does its datasheet say it may use Librarius powers? Yes

Therefore, the Codex directs us that at the step in which you generate psychic powers for all models IN YOUR ARMY, you are thusly given permission to pick from the discipline in the Codex for all models meeting the above criteria.

-

Index librarians use index librarius discipline. The designers commentary are crystal clear how to handle it. You use the index datasheet, and the index datasheet tells you to use psychic powers from the index pg. 10. Nowhere in the designers commentary you are given permission to use the codex librarian discipline for index librarians. As i already said, doing so leads to weird results. I have already given an example, the BA librarian on bike using wings of sanguinius. His movement cannot be increased to 12, if its already 14. It makes no sense. Index librarians are not meant to receive codex psychic powers.

p5freak wrote:
Index librarians use index librarius discipline. The designers commentary are crystal clear how to handle it. You use the index datasheet, and the index datasheet tells you to use psychic powers from the index pg. 10. Nowhere in the designers commentary you are given permission to use the codex librarian discipline for index librarians. As i already said, doing so leads to weird results. I have already given an example, the BA librarian on bike using wings of sanguinius. His movement cannot be increased to 12, if its already 14. It makes no sense. Index librarians are not meant to receive codex psychic powers.

I feel like this is where the breakdown in communication is. There is only 1 Librarius discipline, not 2. So when an Index datasheet references the discipline, regardless of whatever page number it has in parenthesis, you use the discipline in the most current book. The index datasheet DOES NOT say you may only use the discipline on page 10, it says you may use the Librarius discipline, then has an irrelevant reference to (pg 10) in which the outdated version of the discipline exists

There is 7th ed precedence for this as well. The Daemon codex had 3 psychic disciplines, each with only 3 powers (and the primaris). When the Daemonic Incursion book came out, it included expanded versions of those same 3 disciplines, but with 6 powers each. The codex entries still had the page reference for the older version, yet the new version of the disciplines were allowed because the entries still said you can use X discipline and that discipline had been updated.
This is not the first time a discipline has been updated. And again, it has been UPDATED. They are NOT 2 separate disciplines.

In your example with the BA bike libbie, this is purely player's choice. If you already have M14, then just don't cast Wings. easy

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I don't play BA, so I am assuming that Wings of Sanguinus is one of the powers for this point.
I have not yet played any games with random abilities, always chosen ones, with that said, for the Librarian on a bike, why would you even chose that power in the first place if your movies already faster than what the power would grant? Simply give them a more useful power....

 Galef wrote:
Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.I

The "All" that you highlight is used to mean "all (of the models in this book)" use..... It is always understood that unless specified somewhere that the rules in 1 book only refer to the models in that book. Otherwise what happens when GW makes 2 different rules with the same name (as they've done in the past)? Do all models use this same rule regardless of which book they come from? Of course not, players know that that specific form of that rule only applies to the models in that book.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.I

The "All" that you highlight is used to mean "all (of the models in this book)" use..... It is always understood that unless specified somewhere that the rules in 1 book only refer to the models in that book. Otherwise what happens when GW makes 2 different rules with the same name (as they've done in the past)? Do all models use this same rule regardless of which book they come from? Of course not, players know that that specific form of that rule only applies to the models in that book.

Um, no. The "ALL" is referring to every model in your army, whether Index or Codex, that can access THE Librarius discipline

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Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.I

The "All" that you highlight is used to mean "all (of the models in this book)" use..... It is always understood that unless specified somewhere that the rules in 1 book only refer to the models in that book. Otherwise what happens when GW makes 2 different rules with the same name (as they've done in the past)? Do all models use this same rule regardless of which book they come from? Of course not, players know that that specific form of that rule only applies to the models in that book.

Do you have proof that it means only "all of the psykers in the book with the Librarius discipline" as opposed to "all psykers with the Librarius discipline" like it states? Your "it is always understood" seems to be more that you are making an assumption.

It has been confirmed I'm sure.. somewhere. That codex rules apply to index models. Such as chapter tactics etc.

The designers would be my first offer of proof. They specified how to use index models that were not in a codex. In that specification they gave a list of what part(s) of the index rules get modified. Psyker powers were not on this list. As such, psykers use their index list until either a book comes out that specifically grants index models use of a rule or until the designers change their list.
IIRC in past editions of 40K there were variations of USRs that were modified or changed from the base USR without changing names. A player knew that the modified version of that rule that appeared in his book only applied to models that came from that book and did not cover other models in his army not from that book.
This also applied to point costs and was the subject of many complaints. Again IIRC SoB rhinos at one point cost more than SM rhinos even though they were identical in every way. The sister player had to pay the cost in her "codex" even though the SM rhino was cheaper.
Let's be honest GW couldn't edit itself out of a wet paper bag with a flamer. They probably intend for index librarians to use the codex but are either too lazy or careless just to say so. HIWP is to allow the codex usage but RAW it's a no go.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.I

The "All" that you highlight is used to mean "all (of the models in this book)" use..... It is always understood that unless specified somewhere that the rules in 1 book only refer to the models in that book. Otherwise what happens when GW makes 2 different rules with the same name (as they've done in the past)? Do all models use this same rule regardless of which book they come from? Of course not, players know that that specific form of that rule only applies to the models in that book.

You're adding the phrase in brackets. It's not there or meant.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
They probably intend for index librarians to use the codex but are either too lazy or careless just to say so. HIWP is to allow the codex usage but RAW it's a no go.

But that is your opinion. My opinion (and the opinion shared by numerous other poster here) is that RAW and RAI, there is only 1 Librarius discipline and it exists in its most updated form in the Codex.
Therefore if a psyker has access to that discipline, whether Index or Codex, you use the codex version.

-

Of course I added the words in brackets, that's what the brackets mean and of course it's my opinion of RAW. Why would I parrot someone else's opinion? You're free to play 40K however you wish but your opinion is no better than mine until GW says one way or another.

Deleted nm

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
.... until GW says one way or another.

Which they have by allowing us to use a Datasheet for a model that can use X discipline, which just so happens to be currently located in the Codex

-

Which they haven't by being more specific in their upgrade statement as to what is allowed to be used from the codex for an index model.
As far as I'm concerned the more specific statement outweighs a general statement.

Just to go back to GW history there used to be a rule for Orks that if you painted your vehicle red it got to move further than the same not red model. Nobody ever thought that that rule would apply to Blood Angel vehicles even though I'm pretty certain that the red rule did not specify any particular vehicle.

Since we are discussing designers intent- let's look at the intro to codexs article.

"They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
So things like chapter tactics and stratagems. Ok this clearly includes psychic powers but isn't explciit.. what else.

"Alongside new expanded and updated background, you’ll find a wealth of rules content: army specific Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits, Tactical Objectives, psychic powers and more besides. "
Ok a list of new rules- so more specific army wide bonuses index unit can use.

Also

" In all cases, these [codex rules] will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book"

And finally

"In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets."
So we are expected to use most recent rules- and of course psychic powers are new rules.

Nothing is telling me the intent of the designers is not to use the new psychic rules for index units.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Which they haven't by being more specific in their upgrade statement as to what is allowed to be used from the codex for an index model.
As far as I'm concerned the more specific statement outweighs a general statement.

Actually, a codex statement about psykers using a specific discipline would look to be more specific than a general statement about upgrades from the designer commentary.

Thanks again Captyn_Bob! Spot on references as usual

So to recap, you always use the most recent rules. We are given special permission to use the Index datasheets that were not included in the Codex, but otherwise still use the newest rules.

Since the Librarius discipline is not listed power-by-power on the Index sheet, we must refer to the Codex to know what powers are available, because those listed in the Index have been specifically replaced, expended on and updated.

-

ah64pilot5 wrote:I don't play BA, so I am assuming that Wings of Sanguinus is one of the powers for this point.
I have not yet played any games with random abilities, always chosen ones, with that said, for the Librarian on a bike, why would you even chose that power in the first place if your movies already faster than what the power would grant? Simply give them a more useful power....

Yes Wings of sanguinius is a BA psychic power, and a very powerful one. It increases move to 12, adds the FLY keyword, and allows to reroll failed charges. BA have a librarian dreadnought. But it doesnt work with a index librarian on bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Since we are discussing designers intent- let's look at the intro to codexs article.

All of this is not part of the official FAQs. Its just blah blah.

p5freak wrote:

ah64pilot5 wrote:I don't play BA, so I am assuming that Wings of Sanguinus is one of the powers for this point.
I have not yet played any games with random abilities, always chosen ones, with that said, for the Librarian on a bike, why would you even chose that power in the first place if your movies already faster than what the power would grant? Simply give them a more useful power....

Yes Wings of sanguinius is a BA psychic power, and a very powerful one. It increases move to 12, adds the FLY keyword, and allows to reroll failed charges. BA have a librarian dreadnought. But it doesnt work with a index librarian on bike.

Yes it does work with an index librarian on a bike as it is a power he could end up with. The Codex says they get the power (RAW), Captyn_Bob pointed out other areas where you use the most recent rules, which points out RAI.

p5freak wrote:

ah64pilot5 wrote:I don't play BA, so I am assuming that Wings of Sanguinus is one of the powers for this point.
I have not yet played any games with random abilities, always chosen ones, with that said, for the Librarian on a bike, why would you even chose that power in the first place if your movies already faster than what the power would grant? Simply give them a more useful power....

Yes Wings of sanguinius is a BA psychic power, and a very powerful one. It increases move to 12, adds the FLY keyword, and allows to reroll failed charges. BA have a librarian dreadnought. But it doesnt work with a index librarian on bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Since we are discussing designers intent- let's look at the intro to codexs article.

All of this is not part of the official FAQs. Its just blah blah.

Come to think of it, the Bike Librarian has access to the Librarius discipline only, so it can't even get access to Wings. This is a non-issue.

I also thought of another way to look as the "page number" reference. GW has stated that a Codex replaces all datasheets and rules posted in the corresponding Index (this includes psychic powers)
So in the case where we are allowed to use an Index datasheet that refers to a page in the Index, we should use the rules from the Codex that are on that page in the Index.
So simply photo-copy the Librarius discipline from the Codex and paste it over Index page 10 and your can still refer to page 10 for the rules required to use

Easy and legal solution (and is essentially what GW means when they same X has replaced Y)

-

 doctortom wrote:


Yes it does work with an index librarian on a bike as it is a power he could end up with. The Codex says they get the power (RAW), Captyn_Bob pointed out other areas where you use the most recent rules, which points out RAI.

It doesnt work. His movement cannot be increased to 12, because its already 14.

The jump pack librarian is also already movement 12 and in the codex.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The jump pack librarian is also already movement 12 and in the codex.

Exactly. If the power doesn't do anything for the unit, then just don't cast it. But again I must reiterate that this is a non-issue since Bike Libbies are not given access to the BA discipline.

 Galef wrote:

Exactly. If the power doesn't do anything for the unit, then just don't cast it. But again I must reiterate that this is a non-issue since Bike Libbies are not given access to the BA discipline.

What ? There is a BA librarian on a bike in the index imperium 1. Why doesnt he have access to the BA (index) discipline ?

p5freak wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Exactly. If the power doesn't do anything for the unit, then just don't cast it. But again I must reiterate that this is a non-issue since Bike Libbies are not given access to the BA discipline.

What ? There is a BA librarian on a bike in the index imperium 1. Why doesnt he have access to the BA (index) discipline ?

Because Index Imperium 1 does not have a BA Librarian on bike datasheet. It has a datasheet for a regular datasheet and a BA section that says to use the units in the earlier section.
That section is also what allowed a Bike Libbie access to BA powers (actually, someone check that for me, did the Index even have BA powers?)

Since BAs have their own codex, there is no legal way to "give" a Biek Libbie access to any other discipline but Librarius.
Remember, we have permission to use the Index datasheet and options listed on that sheet only. Nothing gives permission to use ANY other part of the Index that has been update (i.e. all the BA, DA and GK rules)

So you can still take a Bike Libbie in a BA army and it gains whatever rules come with the BA chapter tactics (because the codex says so), but unless it specifically states that Astartes Psyker units automatically gain access to the BA psychic discipline, you are still restricted to the options listed on the Bike Libbie datasheet (which only says Librarius)

-

BA most certainly do have access to the exact same Libby on a Bike that normal SM do, it's listed on p89 of Index1. It also specifies that he gains his powers from the Sanquinary Discipline. So he gets access to the BA codex powers per your argument.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
BA most certainly do have access to the exact same Libby on a Bike that normal SM do, it's listed on p89 of Index1. It also specifies that he gains his powers from the Sanquinary Discipline. So he gets access to the BA codex powers per your argument.

So does the Index have a separate BA libbie Datasheet, or does it refer you back to the regular SM datasheets?
If it is the later, I am struggling to se how you are able to access the Sanguinary discipline.

As I mentioned, GW is allowing us to use the DATASHEETS for models/units that were not updated in a Codex. All other parts of the Index that have been updated are outdated are not valid (see my earlier comments on the Librarius discipline).
So while you can still use a Bike Libbie and give him the BA chapter tactic (and all that comes with), the only datasheet available grants access to the Librarius discipline, NOT Sanguinary.

I do not have the BA codex, so correct me if I am wrong, but I imagine is says some thing similar to the SM codex "models WITH ACCESS to the Sanguinary discipline may use the powers below..."
So what grants access?

-

It says right at the bottom of the page that the libby on a bike uses the sanguniary discipline. It just uses the regular SM data sheet rather than print up the exact same info again.

 Galef wrote:
If it is the later, I am struggling to se how you are able to access the Sanguinary discipline.

Perhaps read the rulebooks in question before commenting on them? If you had bothered to read you'll see an explicit instruction on page 89 of Index: Imperium 1.

f a Space Marines unit does not appear on the list below, it cannot be from the Blood Angels Chapter, and so cannot have the BLOOD ANGELS Faction keyword. BLOOD ANGELS PSYKERS generate their psychic powers from the Sanguinary discipline (below) instead of the Librarius discipline.

You've seriously just invalidated everything you've said in this thread because you don't even own/have read the rulebooks in question.

Aren't those rules invalidated by the new Codex, though? If the new BA Dex gave them access to Land Speeder Storms, you're saying they would not be BLOOD ANGELS because of the Index wording.

The flowchart says to only use the datasheet and possibly wargear from the index, not the army rules.

 frightnight wrote:
Aren't those rules invalidated by the new Codex, though? If the new BA Dex gave them access to Land Speeder Storms, you're saying they would not be BLOOD ANGELS because of the Index wording.

The flowchart says to only use the datasheet and possibly wargear from the index, not the army rules.

No, the Codex only overrules datasheets.

In any case, the Codex gives you permission to use the Storm even if the Index doesn't.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 frightnight wrote:
Aren't those rules invalidated by the new Codex, though? If the new BA Dex gave them access to Land Speeder Storms, you're saying they would not be BLOOD ANGELS because of the Index wording.

The flowchart says to only use the datasheet and possibly wargear from the index, not the army rules.

No, the Codex only overrules datasheets.

In any case, the Codex gives you permission to use the Storm even if the Index doesn't.

But that index rule says "cannot" as in "never can". If the codex doesn't overrule it, suddenly we have a situation where Storms have a datasheet with LEGION: BLOOD ANGELS in it but the Index says they can never have that because it's not in the Index list, and we're in an error loop and are our own grandparents.

I'm not arguing this is so, and definitely not that BA libbys don't have Sanguinary, just that if that's your case there's unforeseen repercussions (in GW rules? NEVER!!!!1!)

Except the Datasheet where the storm has <CHAPTER> is not the same one as the one where it has BLOOD ANGELS.

Regardless, it's still not in the Index list, which is completely inclusive with "cannot".

EDIT: It can be argued that the Codex implicitly allows the Storm to be taken with the BA keyword. However, there is no "specific overrules general" rule in 8th, so if the Index states "cannot" we're in a conundrum of contradictory rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:
If it is the later, I am struggling to se how you are able to access the Sanguinary discipline.

Perhaps read the rulebooks in question before commenting on them? If you had bothered to read you'll see an explicit instruction on page 89 of Index: Imperium 1.

f a Space Marines unit does not appear on the list below, it cannot be from the Blood Angels Chapter, and so cannot have the BLOOD ANGELS Faction keyword. BLOOD ANGELS PSYKERS generate their psychic powers from the Sanguinary discipline (below) instead of the Librarius discipline.

You've seriously just invalidated everything you've said in this thread because you don't even own/have read the rulebooks in question.

I actually do have the Imperial Index, thanx. What I am asking is where the CODEX or any other source gives you permission to use page 89 in the Index and any of the rules on that page?

-

 frightnight wrote:
Regardless, it's still not in the Index list, which is completely inclusive with "cannot".

EDIT: It can be argued that the Codex implicitly allows the Storm to be taken with the BA keyword. However, there is no "specific overrules general" rule in 8th, so if the Index states "cannot" we're in a conundrum of contradictory rules.

The index doesn't prohibit it, it just doesn't allow it. Codex allows it, there is no rule prohibiting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I actually do have the Imperial Index, thanx. What I am asking is where the CODEX or any other source gives you permission to use page 89 in the Index and any of the rules on that page?

No idea what you're going on about. Why does that matter? The codex literally has nothing to do with the question at hand, since the Index Librarian on Bike doesn't reference it and the Codex doesn't reference the Librarian on Bike.

I'm looking right at the Bike Libbie datasheet and it says NOTHING about any other discipline but Librarius.

Is there a legit Bike Librarian in the BA CODEX that I don't know about?

-

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 frightnight wrote:
Regardless, it's still not in the Index list, which is completely inclusive with "cannot".

EDIT: It can be argued that the Codex implicitly allows the Storm to be taken with the BA keyword. However, there is no "specific overrules general" rule in 8th, so if the Index states "cannot" we're in a conundrum of contradictory rules.

The index doesn't prohibit it, it just doesn't allow it. Codex allows it, there is no rule prohibiting it.

The Index rule states that if the datasheet doesn't appear on the list, it cannot have the BA keyword. That's pretty prohibitive.

 Galef wrote:
I'm looking right at the Bike Libbie datasheet and it says NOTHING about any other discipline but Librarius.

Is there a legit Bike Librarian in the BA CODEX that I don't know about?

-

Try reading the page we told you to read, or the quote I quoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frightnight wrote:
The Index rule states that if the datasheet doesn't appear on the list, it cannot have the BA keyword. That's pretty prohibitive.

You're actually trying to suggest that the index somehow affects the codex? That's insane, even by RaW purist standards.

 frightnight wrote:
The Index rule states that if the datasheet doesn't appear on the list, it cannot have the BA keyword. That's pretty prohibitive.

BaconCatBug wrote:You're actually trying to suggest that the index somehow affects the codex? That's insane, even by RaW purist standards.

Good lord, no, not in any seriousness. You brought up the Index rules as if they were still valid in regards to Librarian powers, instead of using codex rules. I get that whether those rules still apply to Index units taken with the codex is at the heart of this matter, but I think the wackiness that ensues from not just using datasheets and any wargear statlines/points is pretty clear at this point.

TLDR: Nothing has explicitly stated that the rules in the Indices are invalid now, yet if we do not assume that the Codex overwrites everything that isn't a datasheet or wargear appearing in the Codex things get really hinky really fast.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Try reading the page we told you to read, or the quote I quoted.

I did and it refers to datasheets that have been updated in the Codex, ergo it's outdated.
But I can see how one could infer that the Index allows you to use the Bike Libbie datasheet, which once had the option to be BA with the Sanguinary discipline

So I would not hold it against some one if they wanted to waste a power making a Bike move only 12".

My stance was that the Codex is meant to supersede ALL rules presented in the Index, with the only exception being DATASHEETS (and factions) that were not updated. Page 89 is not a datasheet, so it no longer applies

-

BaconCatBug wrote:

 frightnight wrote:
The Index rule states that if the datasheet doesn't appear on the list, it cannot have the BA keyword. That's pretty prohibitive.

You're actually trying to suggest that the index somehow affects the codex? That's insane, even by RaW purist standards.

The sad part is, that it actually does. Any detachment the codex provides would be allowed to include any index datasheets that have not be replaced by the codex (provided you have a proper model of it).

In addition, the Designer's Commentary is contradictory between its example and the actual flowchart. The flow chart says to use the index version for its wargear options (not the wargear options of the index version), while the example states to use the wargear options of the index version (not the index version for its wargear options).

Either way you choose to look at it, we have a model whose options are only represented in the index, then the index version can affect the codex, either by replacing the entire datasheet or changing the wargear options of the codex datasheet to match the Index.

So, not insane and perfectly in accordance the mish-mash which is GW rules and FAQ interactions.

Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Try reading the page we told you to read, or the quote I quoted.

I did and it refers to datasheets that have been updated in the Codex, ergo it's outdated.
But I can see how one could infer that the Index allows you to use the Bike Libbie datasheet, which once had the option to be BA with the Sanguinary discipline

So I would not hold it against some one if they wanted to waste a power making a Bike move only 12".

My stance was that the Codex is meant to supersede ALL rules presented in the Index, with the only exception being DATASHEETS (and factions) that were not updated. Page 89 is not a datasheet, so it no longer applies

There is no absolute direction on this either way. Technically, one is not able to review the codex when pulling up the index-only datasheet, so any directions for a Psyker to use the codex's Psyker list is as pointless as if you were making an Imperial Soup army and trying to apply the Librarius discipline to a Battle Psyker or a Grey Knight.

The example attached to the flowchart does state to use the Wargear options from the codex where they are available, but as has been pointed out, Psyker powers are not Wargear options. It does provide a possibility of precedence for allowance if the game organizers are willing, but at this point, it is the same as using the local precedence on another's state/providence law in your state/providence's court. The judge/orgranizer may allow for it, or may not. It depends as much on delivery and logical arguments as it does on the judge's/organizer's mood.

@Galef- on page 89 it lists data sheets that the BAs can access that are not printed in the BA section but in the SM section. It then goes on to state that these datasheets now gain the BA <chapter>. Lower on the page it says that psykers with the BA <chapter> use the Sanguinary Discipline. Based on your argument a Libby on bike is a psyker he has the BA chapter and therefore can have the codex abilities.
I fail to see how you are missing the fact that the data sheet gains the BA chapter tag. It's the very first sentence on page 89.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
@Galef- on page 89 it lists data sheets that the BAs can access that are not printed in the BA section but in the SM section. It then goes on to state that these datasheets now gain the BA <chapter>. Lower on the page it says that psykers with the BA <chapter> use the Sanguinary Discipline. Based on your argument a Libby on bike is a psyker he has the BA chapter and therefore can have the codex abilities.
I fail to see how you are missing the fact that the data sheet gains the BA chapter tag. It's the very first sentence on page 89.

Which is fine and probably acceptable.

However, my point is that once the BA codex dropped, RAW we really don't have any permission to use any rules printed on pg 89 of the Index because there are no actual datasheets on that page that were not updated in the BA codex, just references to some datasheets. By the strictest interpretation, that page doesn't actually have any "outdated" datasheets on it, nor does the Bike Librarian datasheet (that we have specific permission to use) make any reference to using any of the BA rules (aside from chapter tactics in the BA codex itself).

I realize that this creates a situation in which BA players do not have access to Bike Librarians at all, which is not my intention. I was merely trying to point out that the discussion about Bike Libbies and casting Wings could very easily lead to this situation in which BA bike libbies just don't have access to the Sanguinary discipline in the first place.

HIWPI is that BAs can use Bike Libbies AND use Sanguinary. But as soon as someone tries to complain about any "odd" rules malarkey that creates, I will have to point out the above.
Probably doing so while gesturing the motion of pushing my imaginary glasses up the bridge of my nose and starting with "Well, actually...."

-

 Galef wrote:

However, my point is that once the BA codex dropped, RAW we really don't have any permission to use any rules printed on pg 89 of the Index because there are no actual datasheets on that page that were not updated in the BA codex, just references to some datasheets. By the strictest interpretation, that page doesn't actually have any "outdated" datasheets on it, nor does the Bike Librarian datasheet (that we have specific permission to use) make any reference to using any of the BA rules (aside from chapter tactics in the BA codex itself).

RAW, you are right. There is no librarian on bike datasheet in the BA section of the index imperium 1.

There really is. Tenets, guys. Don't try and hold this GWspeek to legal document standards. P89 does reference a Librarian on Bike so of course BA can still run one and as the Sanguinary Discipline has been updated in the Codex they get full access to those powers.

Really, everyone should stop *trying* to find ways to stop people using their toys, as GW has shown they intend them to be used as well as the way to. Plenty of actual rules gaps to go crazy over elsewhere.

@Galef- you can't be serious in saying that BA don't have a Libby on bike. Page 89 is not overwritten by the Codex. That whole list of Datasheets is in the BA section, GW says so by saying to use those datasheets for them. The only reason that there is no physical datasheet rather than a reference is for economic reasons (having to repeat an identical page more than once in the same book). There's not even a technical RAW that denies BA from using the model.

Well, since people were arguing intent earlier, and their stated intent is to let players with older models (including, say, a BA Bike Librarian) to use those models, then perhaps they should in fact be allowed to use those models?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Well, since people were arguing intent earlier, and their stated intent is to let players with older models (including, say, a BA Bike Librarian) to use those models, then perhaps they should in fact be allowed to use those models?

I absolutely agree this is the intent. I also feel that as the datasheet WAS indeed available in the Index, than BAs may use Libbies on Bikes.
However, I think that is the extent, to be able to use the model. Applying any rule aside from that (like anything on pg89) has not been allowed or even alluded to. The entire BA section of the Index has been outdated, aside from datasheets listed that have not been updated.

This means that while you may use a BA bike libbie, you will be using the Index Datasheet only (with the BA chapter tactic). The Index DATASHEET does not mention any other discipline but Librarius.
In order to use the Sanguinary discipline, you will already be into "discuss with your opponent" territory, so why not discuss how casting Wings on the model will (or will not) affect it?

-

 Galef wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Well, since people were arguing intent earlier, and their stated intent is to let players with older models (including, say, a BA Bike Librarian) to use those models, then perhaps they should in fact be allowed to use those models?

I absolutely agree this is the intent. I also feel that as the datasheet WAS indeed available in the Index, than BAs may use Libbies on Bikes.
However, I think that is the extent, to be able to use the model. Applying any rule aside from that (like anything on pg89) has not been allowed or even alluded to. The entire BA section of the Index has been outdated.

This means that while you may use a BA bike libbie, you will be using the Index Datasheet only (with the BA chapter tactic). The Index DATASHEET does not mention any other discipline but Librarius.
In order to use the Sanguinary discipline, you will already be into "discuss with your opponent" territory, so why not discuss how casting Wings on the model will (or will not) affect it?

-

Wait so are you saying that the Index models only have access to Index rules, or do they have access to the Codex rules as well?

Because if you say a BA bike libby can draw powers from the Codex: SM Librarius.... that's a reallllllly far stretch.

The designers notes flow chart says that if you are using a model that does not have a Codex datasheet, you use the Index datasheet, but may use Codex rules and points for the options if they have been updated (they state "where available).
So you may use the Bike Libbie datasheet as it is printed, but you may use the update Librarius discipline and any points values (such as for the twin bolters) listed in the Codex. This would also apply to the BA Chapter Tactic as this would replace <Chapter tactics> on the Libbie keywords, thus allowing access to BA rules and strategems
However, I do not think the BA codex specifically says "All BA psykers may generate Sanguinary powers" or something similar as it likely would be redundant for the BA psykers listed in the codex as they will already has that discipline on their datasheets.
So unless there is permission given somewhere in the Codex, the outdated Index datasheet in question, or some other CURRENT source or FAQ, BA bike libbies do not have access to Sanguinary.

But again, I think this is a mere oversight and I wouldn't even bother "correcting" an opponent who was using it. I feel enough intent is there to allow it.

I am merely pointing out that a certain power (Wings) would not do anything for a Bike Libbie, so why bother using it on the Bike libbie in the first place and creating the argument about it "not being able to increase the move to 12" when they already move 14"?

Wait so how do BA bikers get BA chapter tactics, since BA is not a chapter in the SM dex?

Or are you saying they can reference the BA dex and not the SM dex for... some reason?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so how do BA bikers get BA chapter tactics, since BA is not a chapter in the SM dex?

Or are you saying they can reference the BA dex and not the SM dex for... some reason?

That's a good question. If there is nothing in the BA dex that says other Astartes can swap <Chapter tactics> with the BA keyword, than I was wrong. BA's cannot take BA bike Libbies at all, RAW because the Bike Libbie datasheet alone (which is all we have permission to use) can neither be BA or use Sanguinary.

So this would be a situation in which both players (and TOs) should "bend" the RAW in favor of RAI (i.e. using the rules on page 89 of the index, even though we really don't have permission to do so)

-

If you read page 89 all the way down it explicitly says that any psyker with the BA <chapter> uses the Sanguinary discipline. You are being particularly obtuse if you think that the data sheets listed on p 89 do not gain the BA chapter since it says they do right in the first paragraph. That tells you even though the original data sheets are only to be found in the SM section they are considered to be reprinted in the BA section with the addendum that they have the BA <chapter> designation.
As such, per your earlier argument they should have access to the Sanguinary discipline and as such the wings of sanguinis ability.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
If you read page 89 all the way down it explicitly says that any psyker with the BA <chapter> uses the Sanguinary discipline. You are being particularly obtuse if you think that the data sheets listed on p 89 do not gain the BA chapter since it says they do right in the first paragraph. That tells you even though the original data sheets are only to be found in the SM section they are considered to be reprinted in the BA section with the addendum that they have the BA <chapter> designation.
As such, per your earlier argument they should have access to the Sanguinary discipline and as such the wings of sanguinis ability.

Agreed.
And yes, I am being particularly obtuse to point out that once a Codex has been updated, we are only given permission to use outdated datasheets, not the rules that precede them.
In this particular case, that does seem to contradict the RAI, and therefore, it should be perfectly acceptable to use BA bike libbies that can use Sanguinary.

Just don't try to argue the quirks of using said powers, as that rabbit hole leads to a dark place

-

Isnt the index BA bike librarian just an entry on a page for the BAs that says "hey, imagine we've added a datasheet just like the regular Bike Librarian, but change a few details (like which discipline it has access to)".
Now with the BA codex you can access THAT index datasheet (which doesn't physically exist) to include older models in your army. THAT datasheet does not have access to the Librarius discipline, instead it has access to Sanguinary.

Datasheets aren't limited to being a physical page in the index or codex. You have clear instructions to build a sort of "virtual datasheet" on p.89, and a BA player retains access to the resulting datasheet. He doesn't use the original (vanilla) datasheet at all.

Read some, then skipped a bunch...

Read some more, got angry at how silly everyone seems to be...

Writing this reply just to say...if you're playing me and want to run a Blood Angel Bike Librarian, that's cool. If you want to use the current Blood Angel codex powers, that's cool...

If you want to use the index powers because Shield of Sang is better in the index than in the codex, I'll probably smile as I let you. We may even have a good time...but I doubt I'll look forward to playing you again, and if asked, I'll tell others you're a ridiculous, ridiculous person...

I look forward not playing you at all if you ignore crystal clear RAW and make up your own rules.

Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Codex. This was covered upthread. The Codex updates the discipline so the Index one is no longer used.

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Only the Index one, because that's the one the Index Datasheet tells you to use, and no updated datasheet exists.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Only the Index one, because that's the one the Index Datasheet tells you to use, and no updated datasheet exists.

No. The Index tells you to use the Sang discipline, which is now located in the Codex. Any reference to the Index version of any discipline have been replaced by Codex versions

-

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Only the Index one, because that's the one the Index Datasheet tells you to use, and no updated datasheet exists.

No. The Index tells you to use the Sang discipline, which is now located in the Codex. Any reference to the Index version of any discipline have been replaced by Codex versions

-

And by that logic my Blood Angels can never ride in their Rhinos because they must use the Dark Angels version.

It tells you to use a discipline AND THEN GIVES YOU A PAGE REFERENCE. Unless you can show me a Librarian on Bike datasheet in the codex, your argument is objectively WRONG.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Only the Index one, because that's the one the Index Datasheet tells you to use, and no updated datasheet exists.

No. The Index tells you to use the Sang discipline, which is now located in the Codex. Any reference to the Index version of any discipline have been replaced by Codex versions

-

And by that logic my Blood Angels can never ride in their Rhinos because they must use the Dark Angels version.

It tells you to use a discipline AND THEN GIVES YOU A PAGE REFERENCE. Unless you can show me a Librarian on Bike datasheet in the codex, your argument is objectively WRONG.

Datasheets describe models, not the other way around. The Datasheet in the Dark Angels Codex does not describe a Blood Angels Rhino. This Rhino Datasheet argument is invalidated by 8th and keywords, so let's not try and claim it as valid.

The page reference in an Index could never reference a future book. The Codex contains the latest rules for Psychic powers. Trying to make your opponent be hobbled to just the Index ones isn't following the instructions GW have given us.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The page reference in an Index could never reference a future book. The Codex contains the latest rules for Psychic powers. Trying to make your opponent be hobbled to just the Index ones isn't following the instructions GW have given us.

The instructions by GW on the last page of the designers commentary are crystal clear :

"Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Nowhere it says to use most recently published psychic powers.

"DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX? -> NO -> USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET"

For BA pg. 89 of the index imperium 1 tells us to use the librarian on bike datasheet from pg. 15, and to use the psychic powers from pg. 89.

If GW wanted to give index librarians the most recently published psychic powers they would have written that on the flowchart on the last page of the designers commentary.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The page reference in an Index could never reference a future book. The Codex contains the latest rules for Psychic powers. Trying to make your opponent be hobbled to just the Index ones isn't following the instructions GW have given us.

The instructions by GW on the last page of the designers commentary are crystal clear :

"Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Nowhere it says to use most recently published psychic powers.

"DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX? -> NO -> USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET"

For BA pg. 89 of the index imperium 1 tells us to use the librarian on bike datasheet from pg. 15, and to use the psychic powers from pg. 89.

If GW wanted to give index librarians the most recently published psychic powers they would have written that on the flowchart on the last page of the designers commentary.

They didn't need to, and the wording in the Codex makes it clear that Psykers with appropriate Faction/Keywords draw from the Codex list now.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The page reference in an Index could never reference a future book. The Codex contains the latest rules for Psychic powers. Trying to make your opponent be hobbled to just the Index ones isn't following the instructions GW have given us.

The instructions by GW on the last page of the designers commentary are crystal clear :

"Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Nowhere it says to use most recently published psychic powers.

"DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX? -> NO -> USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET"

For BA pg. 89 of the index imperium 1 tells us to use the librarian on bike datasheet from pg. 15, and to use the psychic powers from pg. 89.

If GW wanted to give index librarians the most recently published psychic powers they would have written that on the flowchart on the last page of the designers commentary.

They didn't need to, and the wording in the Codex makes it clear that Psykers with appropriate Faction/Keywords draw from the Codex list now.

And where do you get to see the Codex when only using the Index for that model?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

They didn't need to, and the wording in the Codex makes it clear that Psykers with appropriate Faction/Keywords draw from the Codex list now.

You dont get permission to use the codex psychic powers. Its nowhere mentioned in the designers commentary last page.

I'll just hope that GW answers this in a FAQ.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

They didn't need to, and the wording in the Codex makes it clear that Psykers with appropriate Faction/Keywords draw from the Codex list now.

You dont get permission to use the codex psychic powers. Its nowhere mentioned in the designers commentary last page.

Read the Codex powers entry and tell me the Index Libby doesn't have compatible Keywords.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Read the Codex powers entry and tell me the Index Libby doesn't have compatible Keywords.

Irrelevant. You cant use the codex for index libbys, you never get permission to do so. Index libby, index powers. You can house rule it like you want, a TO can rule it like he wants. But the official rules are crystal clear. Anyone saying anything else is wrong.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Read the Codex powers entry and tell me the Index Libby doesn't have compatible Keywords.

Irrelevant. You cant use the codex for index libbys, you never get permission to do so. Index libby, index powers. You can house rule it like you want, a TO can rule it like he wants. But the official rules are crystal clear. Anyone saying anything else is wrong.

I disagree, due to the general overarching "use latest" instructions and the wording in the Codex re: Psychic powers that include Index Libbies via their permissions (which is completely *not* irrelevant - show me why it can't work, don't just deride). Hair split over wording all you want, and you're free to disagree but it doesn't make me definitively "wrong". You interpret the ruling differently, is all.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Read the Codex powers entry and tell me the Index Libby doesn't have compatible Keywords.

Irrelevant. You cant use the codex for index libbys, you never get permission to do so. Index libby, index powers. You can house rule it like you want, a TO can rule it like he wants. But the official rules are crystal clear. Anyone saying anything else is wrong.

I disagree, due to the general overarching "use latest" instructions and the wording in the Codex re: Psychic powers that include Index Libbies via their permissions (which is completely *not* irrelevant - show me why it can't work, don't just deride). Hair split over wording all you want, and you're free to disagree but it doesn't make me definitively "wrong". You interpret the ruling differently, is all.

1) You are to use the whole Index Datasheet, not just part of it.
2) While using the whole Index Datasheet, you are not referencing the Codex for Psychic Powers.
3) The codex does not state to use the Psychic Powers list for all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment, does it? The Astartes Codex does not.

And you're wrong.

See how easy this is?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

I disagree, due to the general overarching "use latest" instructions and the wording in the Codex re: Psychic powers that include Index Libbies via their permissions (which is completely *not* irrelevant - show me why it can't work, don't just deride). Hair split over wording all you want, and you're free to disagree but it doesn't make me definitively "wrong". You interpret the ruling differently, is all.

I already quoted the relevant rules from the designers commentary why index libbys cannot use codex powers. Now you quote the exact wording from the SM codex pg. 202 where it says that index libbys use codex powers. I checked the page and there is nothing written that says anything like that. The word index isnt even on that page.

Can someone just end this trainwreck? I think everything there's to say was said already, and until GW comes out and says what they actually intended there's nothing going to change here.

 Charistoph wrote:

3) The codex does not state to use the Psychic Powers list for all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment, does it? The Astartes Codex does not.

Yes it does.

Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERSthat can use powers from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below.

 Crimson wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

3) The codex does not state to use the Psychic Powers list for all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment, does it? The Astartes Codex does not.

Yes it does.

Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERSthat can use powers from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below.

And you'll notice that nowhere in the codex is Librarian on Bike.

As we've said multiple times, your logic dictates my Blood Angels can no longer ride in Rhinos because they have to use the Dark Angels Rhino datasheet.

 Crimson wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

3) The codex does not state to use the Psychic Powers list for all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment, does it? The Astartes Codex does not.

Yes it does.

Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERSthat can use powers from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below.

So where is the instruction to go from the Index to the Codex to even read that line if you are using a 100% Index datasheet? That is the point of why I said "all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment".

It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

That is utterly insane. A codex can't affect datasheets that aren't in it, unless the datasheet says otherwise. The entire game breaks down otherwise.

Are all my Blood Angel power fists suddenly 10 points now because they are 10 points in the Guard codex? Or all my Guard powerfists 12 points because Dark Angels codex says so?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

That is utterly insane. A codex can't affect datasheets that aren't in it, unless the datasheet says otherwise. The entire game breaks down otherwise.

Are all my Blood Angel power fists suddenly 10 points now because they are 10 points in the Guard codex? Or all my Guard powerfists 12 points because Dark Angels codex says so?

No. That would go against what BRB says about points.

But can you use codex Statagems on index units? Can you give them codex relics? Can they benefit from codex chapter tactics? Can they have codex warlord traits?

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

That is utterly insane. A codex can't affect datasheets that aren't in it, unless the datasheet says otherwise. The entire game breaks down otherwise.

Are all my Blood Angel power fists suddenly 10 points now because they are 10 points in the Guard codex? Or all my Guard powerfists 12 points because Dark Angels codex says so?

No. That would go against what BRB says about points.

But can you use codex Statagems on index units? Can you give them codex relics? Can they benefit from codex chapter tactics? Can they have codex warlord traits?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

I'll repeat myself: Where is the instruction to go from the Index to the Codex to even read that line if you are using a 100% Index datasheet?

This is part of the problem with the entire GW method of rules-writing. A lack of cohesion and consistency is everywhere which leads to arguments like this one.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

I'll repeat myself: Where is the instruction to go from the Index to the Codex to even read that line if you are using a 100% Index datasheet?

This is part of the problem with the entire GW method of rules-writing. A lack of cohesion and consistency is everywhere which leads to arguments like this one.

Where is the instruction to use codex statagems, relics, chapter tactics or warlord traits on the index units? Do you think index units cannot use those either?

This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

Without presenting any sense of timing as to when this occurs, any course of inclusion on this is pure supposition.

The Strategems would be deployed by Detachment ON the members of the Detachment. Chapter Tactics fall under the same prerogative as the Psychic Powers strangely (and sadly) enough.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

For Index-only units, Relics and such are Wargear, are they not? The Designer's Commentary addresses this much at least, though it would have been better to have the codex just address all this in the first place and not need any such.

This is part of the problem with the entire GW method of rules-writing. A lack of cohesion and consistency is everywhere which leads to arguments like this one that few would actually employ these RAW judgements in our own games because they are so assinine to consider in the first place. That doesn't change how something is Written, though.

Edit: As a side note, I looked up in the Battle Primer when Psychic Powers are selected (last two armies were Necrons and Templars, so keeping Psyker rules in mind isn't a ready thing for me), and it is after army creation. In this case, the timing is sufficient to justify applying the Codex direction to the appropriate Psykers in question. If the Codex/Index state to having the Powers selected during Army List building, we are back to the statement at the top in which the codex doesn't get to be referenced in time.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

It's asinine because this isn't about limiting a unit to old rules, it's SEEKING a way for a unit to use the old, more superior rules when everyone and their brother will intuitively, crazily expect folks to use the most up to date versions of psychic powers.

So, I guess the idea is when your opponent shoots your Shield-of-Sang-buffed Death Company with their Hellblasters, you'll tell him it's a 4++, and when he asks why, you'll tell him it's because your Bike Librarian is from the Index and doesn't get to use the BA codex powers. When he looks at you funny and asks why the updated power of the same name shouldn't be used, we do what? Direct him or her to this super divisive thread and expect it to change his or her mind? He or she won't just think you're trying to find and abuse some loophole to get a 4++ rather than a 5++?

Of course he would. It may not ruin the game. Your opponent may be super cool and just roll through...but if not, if it does create a feel bad experience, it'll be on you and your actions, not on the fact that they just don't understand the super convoluted way the Index-to-codex rules work for non - codex entry units.

Which is why you mention "weird" RaW pre-game.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

It's asinine because this isn't about limiting a unit to old rules, it's SEEKING a way for a unit to use the old, more superior rules when everyone and their brother will intuitively, crazily expect folks to use the most up to date versions of psychic powers.

Actualy, I had gathered from the threads that people were wanting to use the up to date versions of the powers but are being told by some people that they're not allowed to use them. they're not seeking to use the old psychic rules. I think you're assigning an intent that isn't there.

 doctortom wrote:
Actualy, I had gathered from the threads that people were wanting to use the up to date versions of the powers but are being told by some people that they're not allowed to use them. they're not seeking to use the old psychic rules. I think you're assigning an intent that isn't there.

This is true. Libbies on Bikes aren't locked to the Index list because people want/don't want them to be. They are locked to the Index list because that is what the rules say.

 doctortom wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

It's asinine because this isn't about limiting a unit to old rules, it's SEEKING a way for a unit to use the old, more superior rules when everyone and their brother will intuitively, crazily expect folks to use the most up to date versions of psychic powers.

Actualy, I had gathered from the threads that people were wanting to use the up to date versions of the powers but are being told by some people that they're not allowed to use them. they're not seeking to use the old psychic rules. I think you're assigning an intent that isn't there.

The only reason I checked out this thread is because someone made a comment in the BA tactics thread about how bike librarians would still be slinging 4++ Shield of Sanguinius because of this issue, so...There are folks out there looking to use the better, older version of an updated power because they think they've found some wiggle room.

I seriously doubt they'd even make the argument at all if the Index version was 5++ and it got improved to 4++ in the codex.

BCB, I'd still like to hear your view on index units using codex statagems, relics, chapter tactics or warlord traits.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

It's asinine because this isn't about limiting a unit to old rules, it's SEEKING a way for a unit to use the old, more superior rules when everyone and their brother will intuitively, crazily expect folks to use the most up to date versions of psychic powers.

Actualy, I had gathered from the threads that people were wanting to use the up to date versions of the powers but are being told by some people that they're not allowed to use them. they're not seeking to use the old psychic rules. I think you're assigning an intent that isn't there.

The only reason I checked out this thread is because someone made a comment in the BA tactics thread about how bike librarians would still be slinging 4++ Shield of Sanguinius because of this issue, so...There are folks out there looking to use the better, older version of an updated power because they think they've found some wiggle room.

I seriously doubt they'd even make the argument at all if the Index version was 5++ and it got improved to 4++ in the codex.

It couldn't possibly be because....there are people who just want to have a Librarian on a bike, and have to use the index in order to be able to do that, now could it? Seems to me you're tarring a lot of people with that one comment from one person in the BA tactics thread and decided that anybody who wants a bike librarian has to be doing it for the old powers. Your comment on the last page "Read some, then skipped a bunch... " is doing a disservice.

 Crimson wrote:
BCB, I'd still like to hear your view on index units using codex statagems, relics, chapter tactics or warlord traits.

They can use them because the Codex explicitly tells us what models with what keywords can use them. This includes units from other books, as per the Death Guard FAQ.

This is not the same as the Psychic Powers rule because the Datasheet for Librarian on Bike is not in the codex, and the Index datasheet gives us an explicit page number to get our powers from. FURTHERMORE the designers commentary is utterly explicit.

Does Your Model Have A Datasheet In A Codex? > No > Use The Index Version Of Your Model’s Datasheet

Even if the RaW wasn't supportive of being locked into the Index powers, the Designers commentary overwrites any RaW and tells you to use the index version, which includes using only the Index powers.

Further FURTHERMORE, the Designers Commentary flowchart for Index option tells us we may "Choose To Use The Index Version For Its Wargear Options (Note That If The Wargear Has Rules In The Codex, These Replace The Index Rules)"

Wargear Options. Not Powers, not any other rules. WARGEAR OPTIONS ONLY. You do not have permission to use new powers, or use the updated rules for powers, or updated special rules. Wargear only.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
They can use them because the Codex explicitly tells us what models with what keywords can use them.

It is exactly the same. The codex explicitly tells us what table models which have access to Librarius/Sanguinary discipline use.

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
They can use them because the Codex explicitly tells us what models with what keywords can use them.

It is exactly the same. The codex explicitly tells us what table models which have access to Librarius/Sanguinary discipline use.

It actually isn't, because the Librarian on Bike has an explicit reference to where their powers come from.

And like I said (and you ignored), the Designers FAQ supersedes any RaW arguments either way.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It actually isn't, because the Librarian on Bike has an explicit reference to where their powers come from.

And codex has an explicit rule on how to assign powers to models with Librarius/Sanguinary discipline.

And like I said (and you ignored), the Designers FAQ supersedes any RaW arguments either way.

It does not. If you interpret it to mean that index models cannot use codex rules, then they cannot use codex tactics, relics, traits or stratagems either. And if the codex saying that models with certain keywords can use those things, then codex sayin which table models with certain discipline use will also suffice.

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It actually isn't, because the Librarian on Bike has an explicit reference to where their powers come from.

And codex has an explicit rule on how to assign powers to models with Librarius/Sanguinary discipline.

And like I said (and you ignored), the Designers FAQ supersedes any RaW arguments either way.

It does not. If you interpret it to mean that index models cannot use codex rules, then they cannot use codex tactics, relics, traits or stratagems either. And if the codex saying that models with certain keywords can use those things, then codex sayin which table models with certain discipline use will also suffice.

By your logic Blood Angels can never use Rhinos because the Dark Angels codex overwrites the Blood Angels entry.

From a common sense position we can clearly discard that.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By your logic Blood Angels can never use Rhinos because the Dark Angels codex overwrites the Blood Angels entry.

From a common sense position we can clearly discard that.

With all due respect, if common sense was your strong suit, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place!

Codex Dark Angels is not an update or an replacement for codex Blood Angels. Codex Blood Angels however is an update and replacement for Blood Angels portion of the index. If you had any common sense, you'd realise that this is obvious. We merely have an allowance to use some very specific parts of that outdated content.
Furthermore, this isn't even solely about which rule is newer. The codices have explicit rules on which table to use for models with certain discipline. You cannot just ignore that. If codex saying that a model with a certain keyword may use codex relic or warlord table applies to index units, then sure as hell codex sayin that a model with certain discipline must use certain table applies as well.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By your logic Blood Angels can never use Rhinos because the Dark Angels codex overwrites the Blood Angels entry.

From a common sense position we can clearly discard that.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha... What?! How did you even get a thought that goofy from what he said? Are you just trolling at this point?

The Index Librarian on a Bike Datasheet simply tells us to generate two powers from the Librarius Discipline. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels preamble pages tell us to generate Psychic powers from Sanguinary and Interomancy disciplines. Those are overwritten in the new Codices. So we are following the Designer's Notes to use the Index Datasheet while using the new powers - the powers are not on the Datasheet. What we use are the stats for the Librarian on a Bike which are only found there as well as his wargear options.

Are those arguing that we should use the Index powers saying that it would be OK for a Blood Angels Librarian on a Bike to manifest Blood Boil on a 5 when the Codex now has it on a 6? Or that a Librarian on a Bike's Shield of Sanguinius would grant a 4+ Invul as per the Index instead of a 5+ Invul as per the Codex?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That makes no sense. That's like saying I can take my Ad Mech as ULTRAMARINES and get the bonuses from Girlyman, something which is explicitly forbidden.

they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules. Rules don't just randomly happen though cosmic radiation randomly hitting some hard drives. The author had to intend to write the rules down and intended to write them exactly as they did.

If it wasn't intended, errata would be issued. No errata is issued, thus by definition the RaW is RaI.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules. Rules don't just randomly happen though cosmic radiation randomly hitting some hard drives. The author had to intend to write the rules down and intended to write them exactly as they did.

If it wasn't intended, errata would be issued. No errata is issued, thus by definition the RaW is RaI.

Thats cute. So your argument is that your interpretation is the correct one because GW provided a reference in the index and because theres no errata or faq that says "baconcatbug is wrong"? And wtf is that Rhino stuff? Is that just a random distraction or what's that supposed to do?

Genuinely reminded of the Chewbacca defence.

Every time someone types "by that logic" in YMDC a logical fallacy surely follows... :-/

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Every time someone types "by that logic" in YMDC a logical fallacy surely follows... :-/

By that logic Chewbacca lives on Endor though!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules. Rules don't just randomly happen though cosmic radiation randomly hitting some hard drives. The author had to intend to write the rules down and intended to write them exactly as they did.

If it wasn't intended, errata would be issued. No errata is issued, thus by definition the RaW is RaI.

I'm not so sure about that. There have been numerous inconsistencies and contradictions in GW writing, the last Edition rulebook is full of them, and your own signature indicates that much of that hasn't change. Personally, I've attributed it to a room full of drunken monkeys and a dart board, but whatever floats your boat.

If Power Selection occurs when you select the Librarian on a bike, he has to use the Index Powers, as we have no authority to invoke or reference the Codex at that time. If Power Selection occurs after army selection and during game setup, he uses the Codex Powers, because it is applying to the entire army.

It is that simple.

 Charistoph wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules. Rules don't just randomly happen though cosmic radiation randomly hitting some hard drives. The author had to intend to write the rules down and intended to write them exactly as they did.

If it wasn't intended, errata would be issued. No errata is issued, thus by definition the RaW is RaI.

I'm not so sure about that. There have been numerous inconsistencies and contradictions in GW writing, the last Edition rulebook is full of them, and your own signature indicates that much of that hasn't change. Personally, I've attributed it to a room full of drunken monkeys and a dart board, but whatever floats your boat.

If Power Selection occurs when you select the Librarian on a bike, he has to use the Index Powers, as we have no authority to invoke or reference the Codex at that time. If Power Selection occurs after army selection and during game setup, he uses the Codex Powers, because it is applying to the entire army.

It is that simple.

Indeed. Intent can sometimes falter in execution, and an error or omission is not the same as intent.
But this all plays into the "they changed it so I was right all along" mindset some folk have espoused in other posts where, oddly, proof against their stance is taken as support for it. :-/ Arguing sometimes that RAW must be RAI and other times that RAI is irrelevant... doesn't make much sense to me.

The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

From this, I take it that Power selection must be after you've included the model in your army during game setup. I don't think this timing has any bearing on which list they choose from, but if it helps convince you that's how I see the rules on this.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

From this, I take it that Power selection must be after you've included the model in your army during game setup. I don't think this timing has any bearing on which list they choose from, but if it helps convince you that's how I see the rules on this.

The reason I included the qualifier is due to the fact that the Battle Primer indicates that there may be situations where the timing of the Power Selection may be changed, either by the Codex or the Mission. "Before the Battle" is one of those unfortunate phrases which is very inclusive, and can include army creation.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

Yes, before the battle generate the psychic powers for index PSYKERS from the index, like the index datasheets tells you to.

 Charistoph wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

From this, I take it that Power selection must be after you've included the model in your army during game setup. I don't think this timing has any bearing on which list they choose from, but if it helps convince you that's how I see the rules on this.

The reason I included the qualifier is due to the fact that the Battle Primer indicates that there may be situations where the timing of the Power Selection may be changed, either by the Codex or the Mission. "Before the Battle" is one of those unfortunate phrases which is very inclusive, and can include army creation.

It could seem like an all-encompass pre-game step, but to battle you need two armies picked. If you don't have two armies picked you can't play. I guess that's my logic!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

Yes, before the battle generate the psychic powers for index PSYKERS from the index, like the index datasheets tells you to.

Bless...

How can it be argued that the Index Psychic powers supersede the Codex ones? The Datasheet does not list the powers, it tells you were to get them. The parts of the Index that has the Blood Angels' and Dark Angels' powers have been replaced by their applicable Codex. They are Interomancy or Sanguinary (same names), and they are indeed updated. When they wrote the Index they did not know the page of the Codex that would have the powers, but I think its rather obvious that the powers are updated regardless of Datasheet.

For p5freak, do you try to use the more generous Blood Angels Psychic powers from the Index with your Librarian on a Bike?

I haven't played my bike libby since the codex came out, but when i do i will pick psychic powers from the index, because thats RAW.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
How can it be argued that the Index Psychic powers supersede the Codex ones? The Datasheet does not list the powers, it tells you were to get them. The parts of the Index that has the Blood Angels' and Dark Angels' powers have been replaced by their applicable Codex. They are Interomancy or Sanguinary (same names), and they are indeed updated. When they wrote the Index they did not know the page of the Codex that would have the powers, but I think its rather obvious that the powers are updated regardless of Datasheet.

If Power Selection is during Army Creation, the Index Datasheet does not have permission to check with the Codex for its rules for Psychic Powers, only Wargear.

Something I noticed in the Index last night: It tells you to generate powers "Before the battle begins", NOT at army construction. So if you insist that you must use the Index, then you are actually hurting your case.
Since the Index does not allow you to generate powers at army construction, it allows for the timing for the Codex rules to apply, ergo allowing you to use the Codex table to be used for ALL Psykers in your army that can access Librarius.

Although it is important to note that this argument doesn't imply that you MUST use the Codex table, just that you may.

-

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules.

If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

 doctortom wrote:
If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

No, because Errata changes the rules, Clarification FAQ reinforces the RaW and Special Snowflake Ignore the Rules FAQs supersede RaW.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

No, because Errata changes the rules, Clarification FAQ reinforces the RaW and Special Snowflake Ignore the Rules FAQs supersede RaW.

...which means they aren't the same thing and you just disproved your own point? I'm lost as to where this OT diversion is going.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

No, because Errata changes the rules, Clarification FAQ reinforces the RaW and Special Snowflake Ignore the Rules FAQs supersede RaW.

If the written rules had reflected their intention, then they wouldn't need Errata. If the intention is clear and matches up with what they had written they would not need a clarification FAQ. "Special snowflake" might indicate they changed their mind on what rule they wanted, but it could mean they didn't write what they intended in the first place. In any case, it does shoot down your claim that RAI = RAW by definition. You should be ashamed of yourself trying to claim that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

No, because Errata changes the rules, Clarification FAQ reinforces the RaW and Special Snowflake Ignore the Rules FAQs supersede RaW.

...which means they aren't the same thing and you just disproved your own point? I'm lost as to where this OT diversion is going.

I think he's trying to say that the RAI for the index = the RAW for the index because RAI = RAW all the time. But, we have to not take the RAW of the codex as the same as the RAI for the codex, since those are different rules and we can't use the RAW/RAI from the Codex because we have to use the RAW from the Index, which is the RAI that we have to look at, not the RAI which is the RAW from the Codex. I think he's trying to get us to make the classic blunder of going into a duel with a Sicilian when death is on the line.

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