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 JohnnyHell wrote:

The page reference in an Index could never reference a future book. The Codex contains the latest rules for Psychic powers. Trying to make your opponent be hobbled to just the Index ones isn't following the instructions GW have given us.

The instructions by GW on the last page of the designers commentary are crystal clear :

"Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Nowhere it says to use most recently published psychic powers.

"DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX? -> NO -> USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET"

For BA pg. 89 of the index imperium 1 tells us to use the librarian on bike datasheet from pg. 15, and to use the psychic powers from pg. 89.

If GW wanted to give index librarians the most recently published psychic powers they would have written that on the flowchart on the last page of the designers commentary.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The page reference in an Index could never reference a future book. The Codex contains the latest rules for Psychic powers. Trying to make your opponent be hobbled to just the Index ones isn't following the instructions GW have given us.

The instructions by GW on the last page of the designers commentary are crystal clear :

"Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Nowhere it says to use most recently published psychic powers.

"DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX? -> NO -> USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET"

For BA pg. 89 of the index imperium 1 tells us to use the librarian on bike datasheet from pg. 15, and to use the psychic powers from pg. 89.

If GW wanted to give index librarians the most recently published psychic powers they would have written that on the flowchart on the last page of the designers commentary.

They didn't need to, and the wording in the Codex makes it clear that Psykers with appropriate Faction/Keywords draw from the Codex list now.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The page reference in an Index could never reference a future book. The Codex contains the latest rules for Psychic powers. Trying to make your opponent be hobbled to just the Index ones isn't following the instructions GW have given us.

The instructions by GW on the last page of the designers commentary are crystal clear :

"Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Nowhere it says to use most recently published psychic powers.

"DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX? -> NO -> USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET"

For BA pg. 89 of the index imperium 1 tells us to use the librarian on bike datasheet from pg. 15, and to use the psychic powers from pg. 89.

If GW wanted to give index librarians the most recently published psychic powers they would have written that on the flowchart on the last page of the designers commentary.

They didn't need to, and the wording in the Codex makes it clear that Psykers with appropriate Faction/Keywords draw from the Codex list now.

And where do you get to see the Codex when only using the Index for that model?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

They didn't need to, and the wording in the Codex makes it clear that Psykers with appropriate Faction/Keywords draw from the Codex list now.

You dont get permission to use the codex psychic powers. Its nowhere mentioned in the designers commentary last page.

I'll just hope that GW answers this in a FAQ.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

They didn't need to, and the wording in the Codex makes it clear that Psykers with appropriate Faction/Keywords draw from the Codex list now.

You dont get permission to use the codex psychic powers. Its nowhere mentioned in the designers commentary last page.

Read the Codex powers entry and tell me the Index Libby doesn't have compatible Keywords.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Read the Codex powers entry and tell me the Index Libby doesn't have compatible Keywords.

Irrelevant. You cant use the codex for index libbys, you never get permission to do so. Index libby, index powers. You can house rule it like you want, a TO can rule it like he wants. But the official rules are crystal clear. Anyone saying anything else is wrong.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Read the Codex powers entry and tell me the Index Libby doesn't have compatible Keywords.

Irrelevant. You cant use the codex for index libbys, you never get permission to do so. Index libby, index powers. You can house rule it like you want, a TO can rule it like he wants. But the official rules are crystal clear. Anyone saying anything else is wrong.

I disagree, due to the general overarching "use latest" instructions and the wording in the Codex re: Psychic powers that include Index Libbies via their permissions (which is completely *not* irrelevant - show me why it can't work, don't just deride). Hair split over wording all you want, and you're free to disagree but it doesn't make me definitively "wrong". You interpret the ruling differently, is all.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Read the Codex powers entry and tell me the Index Libby doesn't have compatible Keywords.

Irrelevant. You cant use the codex for index libbys, you never get permission to do so. Index libby, index powers. You can house rule it like you want, a TO can rule it like he wants. But the official rules are crystal clear. Anyone saying anything else is wrong.

I disagree, due to the general overarching "use latest" instructions and the wording in the Codex re: Psychic powers that include Index Libbies via their permissions (which is completely *not* irrelevant - show me why it can't work, don't just deride). Hair split over wording all you want, and you're free to disagree but it doesn't make me definitively "wrong". You interpret the ruling differently, is all.

1) You are to use the whole Index Datasheet, not just part of it.
2) While using the whole Index Datasheet, you are not referencing the Codex for Psychic Powers.
3) The codex does not state to use the Psychic Powers list for all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment, does it? The Astartes Codex does not.

And you're wrong.

See how easy this is?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

I disagree, due to the general overarching "use latest" instructions and the wording in the Codex re: Psychic powers that include Index Libbies via their permissions (which is completely *not* irrelevant - show me why it can't work, don't just deride). Hair split over wording all you want, and you're free to disagree but it doesn't make me definitively "wrong". You interpret the ruling differently, is all.

I already quoted the relevant rules from the designers commentary why index libbys cannot use codex powers. Now you quote the exact wording from the SM codex pg. 202 where it says that index libbys use codex powers. I checked the page and there is nothing written that says anything like that. The word index isnt even on that page.

Can someone just end this trainwreck? I think everything there's to say was said already, and until GW comes out and says what they actually intended there's nothing going to change here.

 Charistoph wrote:

3) The codex does not state to use the Psychic Powers list for all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment, does it? The Astartes Codex does not.

Yes it does.

Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERSthat can use powers from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below.

 Crimson wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

3) The codex does not state to use the Psychic Powers list for all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment, does it? The Astartes Codex does not.

Yes it does.

Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERSthat can use powers from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below.

And you'll notice that nowhere in the codex is Librarian on Bike.

As we've said multiple times, your logic dictates my Blood Angels can no longer ride in Rhinos because they have to use the Dark Angels Rhino datasheet.

 Crimson wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

3) The codex does not state to use the Psychic Powers list for all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment, does it? The Astartes Codex does not.

Yes it does.

Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERSthat can use powers from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below.

So where is the instruction to go from the Index to the Codex to even read that line if you are using a 100% Index datasheet? That is the point of why I said "all Psykers in a Blood Angels Detachment".

It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

That is utterly insane. A codex can't affect datasheets that aren't in it, unless the datasheet says otherwise. The entire game breaks down otherwise.

Are all my Blood Angel power fists suddenly 10 points now because they are 10 points in the Guard codex? Or all my Guard powerfists 12 points because Dark Angels codex says so?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

That is utterly insane. A codex can't affect datasheets that aren't in it, unless the datasheet says otherwise. The entire game breaks down otherwise.

Are all my Blood Angel power fists suddenly 10 points now because they are 10 points in the Guard codex? Or all my Guard powerfists 12 points because Dark Angels codex says so?

No. That would go against what BRB says about points.

But can you use codex Statagems on index units? Can you give them codex relics? Can they benefit from codex chapter tactics? Can they have codex warlord traits?

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

That is utterly insane. A codex can't affect datasheets that aren't in it, unless the datasheet says otherwise. The entire game breaks down otherwise.

Are all my Blood Angel power fists suddenly 10 points now because they are 10 points in the Guard codex? Or all my Guard powerfists 12 points because Dark Angels codex says so?

No. That would go against what BRB says about points.

But can you use codex Statagems on index units? Can you give them codex relics? Can they benefit from codex chapter tactics? Can they have codex warlord traits?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

I'll repeat myself: Where is the instruction to go from the Index to the Codex to even read that line if you are using a 100% Index datasheet?

This is part of the problem with the entire GW method of rules-writing. A lack of cohesion and consistency is everywhere which leads to arguments like this one.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is a psyker in the army that can use Sanguinary Discipline. The codex tells us how to handle such models. Whether that model itself is in the codex is irrelevant.

I'll repeat myself: Where is the instruction to go from the Index to the Codex to even read that line if you are using a 100% Index datasheet?

This is part of the problem with the entire GW method of rules-writing. A lack of cohesion and consistency is everywhere which leads to arguments like this one.

Where is the instruction to use codex statagems, relics, chapter tactics or warlord traits on the index units? Do you think index units cannot use those either?

This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

Without presenting any sense of timing as to when this occurs, any course of inclusion on this is pure supposition.

The Strategems would be deployed by Detachment ON the members of the Detachment. Chapter Tactics fall under the same prerogative as the Psychic Powers strangely (and sadly) enough.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

For Index-only units, Relics and such are Wargear, are they not? The Designer's Commentary addresses this much at least, though it would have been better to have the codex just address all this in the first place and not need any such.

This is part of the problem with the entire GW method of rules-writing. A lack of cohesion and consistency is everywhere which leads to arguments like this one that few would actually employ these RAW judgements in our own games because they are so assinine to consider in the first place. That doesn't change how something is Written, though.

Edit: As a side note, I looked up in the Battle Primer when Psychic Powers are selected (last two armies were Necrons and Templars, so keeping Psyker rules in mind isn't a ready thing for me), and it is after army creation. In this case, the timing is sufficient to justify applying the Codex direction to the appropriate Psykers in question. If the Codex/Index state to having the Powers selected during Army List building, we are back to the statement at the top in which the codex doesn't get to be referenced in time.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

It's asinine because this isn't about limiting a unit to old rules, it's SEEKING a way for a unit to use the old, more superior rules when everyone and their brother will intuitively, crazily expect folks to use the most up to date versions of psychic powers.

So, I guess the idea is when your opponent shoots your Shield-of-Sang-buffed Death Company with their Hellblasters, you'll tell him it's a 4++, and when he asks why, you'll tell him it's because your Bike Librarian is from the Index and doesn't get to use the BA codex powers. When he looks at you funny and asks why the updated power of the same name shouldn't be used, we do what? Direct him or her to this super divisive thread and expect it to change his or her mind? He or she won't just think you're trying to find and abuse some loophole to get a 4++ rather than a 5++?

Of course he would. It may not ruin the game. Your opponent may be super cool and just roll through...but if not, if it does create a feel bad experience, it'll be on you and your actions, not on the fact that they just don't understand the super convoluted way the Index-to-codex rules work for non - codex entry units.

Which is why you mention "weird" RaW pre-game.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

It's asinine because this isn't about limiting a unit to old rules, it's SEEKING a way for a unit to use the old, more superior rules when everyone and their brother will intuitively, crazily expect folks to use the most up to date versions of psychic powers.

Actualy, I had gathered from the threads that people were wanting to use the up to date versions of the powers but are being told by some people that they're not allowed to use them. they're not seeking to use the old psychic rules. I think you're assigning an intent that isn't there.

 doctortom wrote:
Actualy, I had gathered from the threads that people were wanting to use the up to date versions of the powers but are being told by some people that they're not allowed to use them. they're not seeking to use the old psychic rules. I think you're assigning an intent that isn't there.

This is true. Libbies on Bikes aren't locked to the Index list because people want/don't want them to be. They are locked to the Index list because that is what the rules say.

 doctortom wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

It's asinine because this isn't about limiting a unit to old rules, it's SEEKING a way for a unit to use the old, more superior rules when everyone and their brother will intuitively, crazily expect folks to use the most up to date versions of psychic powers.

Actualy, I had gathered from the threads that people were wanting to use the up to date versions of the powers but are being told by some people that they're not allowed to use them. they're not seeking to use the old psychic rules. I think you're assigning an intent that isn't there.

The only reason I checked out this thread is because someone made a comment in the BA tactics thread about how bike librarians would still be slinging 4++ Shield of Sanguinius because of this issue, so...There are folks out there looking to use the better, older version of an updated power because they think they've found some wiggle room.

I seriously doubt they'd even make the argument at all if the Index version was 5++ and it got improved to 4++ in the codex.

BCB, I'd still like to hear your view on index units using codex statagems, relics, chapter tactics or warlord traits.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
This has to be one of the most asinine debates I have ever seen.

Only a true donkey cave would limit a bike Librarian to just Index powers. The Index predates the Codex and does not/cannot predict what each Codex will bring. It the Codex says that ALL PSYKERS with access to the Sanguinary Discipline generate their powers from the Codex list that is pretty clear.

So do Index options pay more for weapon options than their Codex equivalent? Is a Power Fist for an Index option always going to be 20 points instead of 12?

It's asinine because this isn't about limiting a unit to old rules, it's SEEKING a way for a unit to use the old, more superior rules when everyone and their brother will intuitively, crazily expect folks to use the most up to date versions of psychic powers.

Actualy, I had gathered from the threads that people were wanting to use the up to date versions of the powers but are being told by some people that they're not allowed to use them. they're not seeking to use the old psychic rules. I think you're assigning an intent that isn't there.

The only reason I checked out this thread is because someone made a comment in the BA tactics thread about how bike librarians would still be slinging 4++ Shield of Sanguinius because of this issue, so...There are folks out there looking to use the better, older version of an updated power because they think they've found some wiggle room.

I seriously doubt they'd even make the argument at all if the Index version was 5++ and it got improved to 4++ in the codex.

It couldn't possibly be because....there are people who just want to have a Librarian on a bike, and have to use the index in order to be able to do that, now could it? Seems to me you're tarring a lot of people with that one comment from one person in the BA tactics thread and decided that anybody who wants a bike librarian has to be doing it for the old powers. Your comment on the last page "Read some, then skipped a bunch... " is doing a disservice.