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 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:
If it is the later, I am struggling to se how you are able to access the Sanguinary discipline.

Perhaps read the rulebooks in question before commenting on them? If you had bothered to read you'll see an explicit instruction on page 89 of Index: Imperium 1.

f a Space Marines unit does not appear on the list below, it cannot be from the Blood Angels Chapter, and so cannot have the BLOOD ANGELS Faction keyword. BLOOD ANGELS PSYKERS generate their psychic powers from the Sanguinary discipline (below) instead of the Librarius discipline.

You've seriously just invalidated everything you've said in this thread because you don't even own/have read the rulebooks in question.

I actually do have the Imperial Index, thanx. What I am asking is where the CODEX or any other source gives you permission to use page 89 in the Index and any of the rules on that page?

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 frightnight wrote:
Regardless, it's still not in the Index list, which is completely inclusive with "cannot".

EDIT: It can be argued that the Codex implicitly allows the Storm to be taken with the BA keyword. However, there is no "specific overrules general" rule in 8th, so if the Index states "cannot" we're in a conundrum of contradictory rules.

The index doesn't prohibit it, it just doesn't allow it. Codex allows it, there is no rule prohibiting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I actually do have the Imperial Index, thanx. What I am asking is where the CODEX or any other source gives you permission to use page 89 in the Index and any of the rules on that page?

No idea what you're going on about. Why does that matter? The codex literally has nothing to do with the question at hand, since the Index Librarian on Bike doesn't reference it and the Codex doesn't reference the Librarian on Bike.

I'm looking right at the Bike Libbie datasheet and it says NOTHING about any other discipline but Librarius.

Is there a legit Bike Librarian in the BA CODEX that I don't know about?

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 BaconCatBug wrote:

 frightnight wrote:
Regardless, it's still not in the Index list, which is completely inclusive with "cannot".

EDIT: It can be argued that the Codex implicitly allows the Storm to be taken with the BA keyword. However, there is no "specific overrules general" rule in 8th, so if the Index states "cannot" we're in a conundrum of contradictory rules.

The index doesn't prohibit it, it just doesn't allow it. Codex allows it, there is no rule prohibiting it.

The Index rule states that if the datasheet doesn't appear on the list, it cannot have the BA keyword. That's pretty prohibitive.

 Galef wrote:
I'm looking right at the Bike Libbie datasheet and it says NOTHING about any other discipline but Librarius.

Is there a legit Bike Librarian in the BA CODEX that I don't know about?

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Try reading the page we told you to read, or the quote I quoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frightnight wrote:
The Index rule states that if the datasheet doesn't appear on the list, it cannot have the BA keyword. That's pretty prohibitive.

You're actually trying to suggest that the index somehow affects the codex? That's insane, even by RaW purist standards.

 frightnight wrote:
The Index rule states that if the datasheet doesn't appear on the list, it cannot have the BA keyword. That's pretty prohibitive.

BaconCatBug wrote:You're actually trying to suggest that the index somehow affects the codex? That's insane, even by RaW purist standards.

Good lord, no, not in any seriousness. You brought up the Index rules as if they were still valid in regards to Librarian powers, instead of using codex rules. I get that whether those rules still apply to Index units taken with the codex is at the heart of this matter, but I think the wackiness that ensues from not just using datasheets and any wargear statlines/points is pretty clear at this point.

TLDR: Nothing has explicitly stated that the rules in the Indices are invalid now, yet if we do not assume that the Codex overwrites everything that isn't a datasheet or wargear appearing in the Codex things get really hinky really fast.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Try reading the page we told you to read, or the quote I quoted.

I did and it refers to datasheets that have been updated in the Codex, ergo it's outdated.
But I can see how one could infer that the Index allows you to use the Bike Libbie datasheet, which once had the option to be BA with the Sanguinary discipline

So I would not hold it against some one if they wanted to waste a power making a Bike move only 12".

My stance was that the Codex is meant to supersede ALL rules presented in the Index, with the only exception being DATASHEETS (and factions) that were not updated. Page 89 is not a datasheet, so it no longer applies

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BaconCatBug wrote:

 frightnight wrote:
The Index rule states that if the datasheet doesn't appear on the list, it cannot have the BA keyword. That's pretty prohibitive.

You're actually trying to suggest that the index somehow affects the codex? That's insane, even by RaW purist standards.

The sad part is, that it actually does. Any detachment the codex provides would be allowed to include any index datasheets that have not be replaced by the codex (provided you have a proper model of it).

In addition, the Designer's Commentary is contradictory between its example and the actual flowchart. The flow chart says to use the index version for its wargear options (not the wargear options of the index version), while the example states to use the wargear options of the index version (not the index version for its wargear options).

Either way you choose to look at it, we have a model whose options are only represented in the index, then the index version can affect the codex, either by replacing the entire datasheet or changing the wargear options of the codex datasheet to match the Index.

So, not insane and perfectly in accordance the mish-mash which is GW rules and FAQ interactions.

Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Try reading the page we told you to read, or the quote I quoted.

I did and it refers to datasheets that have been updated in the Codex, ergo it's outdated.
But I can see how one could infer that the Index allows you to use the Bike Libbie datasheet, which once had the option to be BA with the Sanguinary discipline

So I would not hold it against some one if they wanted to waste a power making a Bike move only 12".

My stance was that the Codex is meant to supersede ALL rules presented in the Index, with the only exception being DATASHEETS (and factions) that were not updated. Page 89 is not a datasheet, so it no longer applies

There is no absolute direction on this either way. Technically, one is not able to review the codex when pulling up the index-only datasheet, so any directions for a Psyker to use the codex's Psyker list is as pointless as if you were making an Imperial Soup army and trying to apply the Librarius discipline to a Battle Psyker or a Grey Knight.

The example attached to the flowchart does state to use the Wargear options from the codex where they are available, but as has been pointed out, Psyker powers are not Wargear options. It does provide a possibility of precedence for allowance if the game organizers are willing, but at this point, it is the same as using the local precedence on another's state/providence law in your state/providence's court. The judge/orgranizer may allow for it, or may not. It depends as much on delivery and logical arguments as it does on the judge's/organizer's mood.

@Galef- on page 89 it lists data sheets that the BAs can access that are not printed in the BA section but in the SM section. It then goes on to state that these datasheets now gain the BA <chapter>. Lower on the page it says that psykers with the BA <chapter> use the Sanguinary Discipline. Based on your argument a Libby on bike is a psyker he has the BA chapter and therefore can have the codex abilities.
I fail to see how you are missing the fact that the data sheet gains the BA chapter tag. It's the very first sentence on page 89.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
@Galef- on page 89 it lists data sheets that the BAs can access that are not printed in the BA section but in the SM section. It then goes on to state that these datasheets now gain the BA <chapter>. Lower on the page it says that psykers with the BA <chapter> use the Sanguinary Discipline. Based on your argument a Libby on bike is a psyker he has the BA chapter and therefore can have the codex abilities.
I fail to see how you are missing the fact that the data sheet gains the BA chapter tag. It's the very first sentence on page 89.

Which is fine and probably acceptable.

However, my point is that once the BA codex dropped, RAW we really don't have any permission to use any rules printed on pg 89 of the Index because there are no actual datasheets on that page that were not updated in the BA codex, just references to some datasheets. By the strictest interpretation, that page doesn't actually have any "outdated" datasheets on it, nor does the Bike Librarian datasheet (that we have specific permission to use) make any reference to using any of the BA rules (aside from chapter tactics in the BA codex itself).

I realize that this creates a situation in which BA players do not have access to Bike Librarians at all, which is not my intention. I was merely trying to point out that the discussion about Bike Libbies and casting Wings could very easily lead to this situation in which BA bike libbies just don't have access to the Sanguinary discipline in the first place.

HIWPI is that BAs can use Bike Libbies AND use Sanguinary. But as soon as someone tries to complain about any "odd" rules malarkey that creates, I will have to point out the above.
Probably doing so while gesturing the motion of pushing my imaginary glasses up the bridge of my nose and starting with "Well, actually...."

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 Galef wrote:

However, my point is that once the BA codex dropped, RAW we really don't have any permission to use any rules printed on pg 89 of the Index because there are no actual datasheets on that page that were not updated in the BA codex, just references to some datasheets. By the strictest interpretation, that page doesn't actually have any "outdated" datasheets on it, nor does the Bike Librarian datasheet (that we have specific permission to use) make any reference to using any of the BA rules (aside from chapter tactics in the BA codex itself).

RAW, you are right. There is no librarian on bike datasheet in the BA section of the index imperium 1.

There really is. Tenets, guys. Don't try and hold this GWspeek to legal document standards. P89 does reference a Librarian on Bike so of course BA can still run one and as the Sanguinary Discipline has been updated in the Codex they get full access to those powers.

Really, everyone should stop *trying* to find ways to stop people using their toys, as GW has shown they intend them to be used as well as the way to. Plenty of actual rules gaps to go crazy over elsewhere.

@Galef- you can't be serious in saying that BA don't have a Libby on bike. Page 89 is not overwritten by the Codex. That whole list of Datasheets is in the BA section, GW says so by saying to use those datasheets for them. The only reason that there is no physical datasheet rather than a reference is for economic reasons (having to repeat an identical page more than once in the same book). There's not even a technical RAW that denies BA from using the model.

Well, since people were arguing intent earlier, and their stated intent is to let players with older models (including, say, a BA Bike Librarian) to use those models, then perhaps they should in fact be allowed to use those models?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Well, since people were arguing intent earlier, and their stated intent is to let players with older models (including, say, a BA Bike Librarian) to use those models, then perhaps they should in fact be allowed to use those models?

I absolutely agree this is the intent. I also feel that as the datasheet WAS indeed available in the Index, than BAs may use Libbies on Bikes.
However, I think that is the extent, to be able to use the model. Applying any rule aside from that (like anything on pg89) has not been allowed or even alluded to. The entire BA section of the Index has been outdated, aside from datasheets listed that have not been updated.

This means that while you may use a BA bike libbie, you will be using the Index Datasheet only (with the BA chapter tactic). The Index DATASHEET does not mention any other discipline but Librarius.
In order to use the Sanguinary discipline, you will already be into "discuss with your opponent" territory, so why not discuss how casting Wings on the model will (or will not) affect it?

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 Galef wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Well, since people were arguing intent earlier, and their stated intent is to let players with older models (including, say, a BA Bike Librarian) to use those models, then perhaps they should in fact be allowed to use those models?

I absolutely agree this is the intent. I also feel that as the datasheet WAS indeed available in the Index, than BAs may use Libbies on Bikes.
However, I think that is the extent, to be able to use the model. Applying any rule aside from that (like anything on pg89) has not been allowed or even alluded to. The entire BA section of the Index has been outdated.

This means that while you may use a BA bike libbie, you will be using the Index Datasheet only (with the BA chapter tactic). The Index DATASHEET does not mention any other discipline but Librarius.
In order to use the Sanguinary discipline, you will already be into "discuss with your opponent" territory, so why not discuss how casting Wings on the model will (or will not) affect it?

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Wait so are you saying that the Index models only have access to Index rules, or do they have access to the Codex rules as well?

Because if you say a BA bike libby can draw powers from the Codex: SM Librarius.... that's a reallllllly far stretch.

The designers notes flow chart says that if you are using a model that does not have a Codex datasheet, you use the Index datasheet, but may use Codex rules and points for the options if they have been updated (they state "where available).
So you may use the Bike Libbie datasheet as it is printed, but you may use the update Librarius discipline and any points values (such as for the twin bolters) listed in the Codex. This would also apply to the BA Chapter Tactic as this would replace <Chapter tactics> on the Libbie keywords, thus allowing access to BA rules and strategems
However, I do not think the BA codex specifically says "All BA psykers may generate Sanguinary powers" or something similar as it likely would be redundant for the BA psykers listed in the codex as they will already has that discipline on their datasheets.
So unless there is permission given somewhere in the Codex, the outdated Index datasheet in question, or some other CURRENT source or FAQ, BA bike libbies do not have access to Sanguinary.

But again, I think this is a mere oversight and I wouldn't even bother "correcting" an opponent who was using it. I feel enough intent is there to allow it.

I am merely pointing out that a certain power (Wings) would not do anything for a Bike Libbie, so why bother using it on the Bike libbie in the first place and creating the argument about it "not being able to increase the move to 12" when they already move 14"?

Wait so how do BA bikers get BA chapter tactics, since BA is not a chapter in the SM dex?

Or are you saying they can reference the BA dex and not the SM dex for... some reason?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so how do BA bikers get BA chapter tactics, since BA is not a chapter in the SM dex?

Or are you saying they can reference the BA dex and not the SM dex for... some reason?

That's a good question. If there is nothing in the BA dex that says other Astartes can swap <Chapter tactics> with the BA keyword, than I was wrong. BA's cannot take BA bike Libbies at all, RAW because the Bike Libbie datasheet alone (which is all we have permission to use) can neither be BA or use Sanguinary.

So this would be a situation in which both players (and TOs) should "bend" the RAW in favor of RAI (i.e. using the rules on page 89 of the index, even though we really don't have permission to do so)

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If you read page 89 all the way down it explicitly says that any psyker with the BA <chapter> uses the Sanguinary discipline. You are being particularly obtuse if you think that the data sheets listed on p 89 do not gain the BA chapter since it says they do right in the first paragraph. That tells you even though the original data sheets are only to be found in the SM section they are considered to be reprinted in the BA section with the addendum that they have the BA <chapter> designation.
As such, per your earlier argument they should have access to the Sanguinary discipline and as such the wings of sanguinis ability.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
If you read page 89 all the way down it explicitly says that any psyker with the BA <chapter> uses the Sanguinary discipline. You are being particularly obtuse if you think that the data sheets listed on p 89 do not gain the BA chapter since it says they do right in the first paragraph. That tells you even though the original data sheets are only to be found in the SM section they are considered to be reprinted in the BA section with the addendum that they have the BA <chapter> designation.
As such, per your earlier argument they should have access to the Sanguinary discipline and as such the wings of sanguinis ability.

Agreed.
And yes, I am being particularly obtuse to point out that once a Codex has been updated, we are only given permission to use outdated datasheets, not the rules that precede them.
In this particular case, that does seem to contradict the RAI, and therefore, it should be perfectly acceptable to use BA bike libbies that can use Sanguinary.

Just don't try to argue the quirks of using said powers, as that rabbit hole leads to a dark place

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Isnt the index BA bike librarian just an entry on a page for the BAs that says "hey, imagine we've added a datasheet just like the regular Bike Librarian, but change a few details (like which discipline it has access to)".
Now with the BA codex you can access THAT index datasheet (which doesn't physically exist) to include older models in your army. THAT datasheet does not have access to the Librarius discipline, instead it has access to Sanguinary.

Datasheets aren't limited to being a physical page in the index or codex. You have clear instructions to build a sort of "virtual datasheet" on p.89, and a BA player retains access to the resulting datasheet. He doesn't use the original (vanilla) datasheet at all.

Read some, then skipped a bunch...

Read some more, got angry at how silly everyone seems to be...

Writing this reply just to say...if you're playing me and want to run a Blood Angel Bike Librarian, that's cool. If you want to use the current Blood Angel codex powers, that's cool...

If you want to use the index powers because Shield of Sang is better in the index than in the codex, I'll probably smile as I let you. We may even have a good time...but I doubt I'll look forward to playing you again, and if asked, I'll tell others you're a ridiculous, ridiculous person...

I look forward not playing you at all if you ignore crystal clear RAW and make up your own rules.

Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Codex. This was covered upthread. The Codex updates the discipline so the Index one is no longer used.

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Only the Index one, because that's the one the Index Datasheet tells you to use, and no updated datasheet exists.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Only the Index one, because that's the one the Index Datasheet tells you to use, and no updated datasheet exists.

No. The Index tells you to use the Sang discipline, which is now located in the Codex. Any reference to the Index version of any discipline have been replaced by Codex versions

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 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Only the Index one, because that's the one the Index Datasheet tells you to use, and no updated datasheet exists.

No. The Index tells you to use the Sang discipline, which is now located in the Codex. Any reference to the Index version of any discipline have been replaced by Codex versions

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And by that logic my Blood Angels can never ride in their Rhinos because they must use the Dark Angels version.

It tells you to use a discipline AND THEN GIVES YOU A PAGE REFERENCE. Unless you can show me a Librarian on Bike datasheet in the codex, your argument is objectively WRONG.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Mournssquats wrote:
Silly question,
Or back to origal point.

does the BA bike libbie have access to index or codex sang discipline?

Only the Index one, because that's the one the Index Datasheet tells you to use, and no updated datasheet exists.

No. The Index tells you to use the Sang discipline, which is now located in the Codex. Any reference to the Index version of any discipline have been replaced by Codex versions

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And by that logic my Blood Angels can never ride in their Rhinos because they must use the Dark Angels version.

It tells you to use a discipline AND THEN GIVES YOU A PAGE REFERENCE. Unless you can show me a Librarian on Bike datasheet in the codex, your argument is objectively WRONG.

Datasheets describe models, not the other way around. The Datasheet in the Dark Angels Codex does not describe a Blood Angels Rhino. This Rhino Datasheet argument is invalidated by 8th and keywords, so let's not try and claim it as valid.

The page reference in an Index could never reference a future book. The Codex contains the latest rules for Psychic powers. Trying to make your opponent be hobbled to just the Index ones isn't following the instructions GW have given us.