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 Galef wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
They have the same names. The index only has 3 powers whereas the codex has 6.

Thank you. Then refer to the flow chart which says you may, nah MUST, use the updated points and/or rules where possible.
In this case, the Index Libbie on bike has Librarus, which was indeed updated. Ergo, you have access to all 6 powers

There is no wiggle room.
I'll post the flow chart when I find it

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OMG The chart has been already been qouted here.

"Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear."

Like you said no wiggle room. Doesnt say anything about psychic powers.

Well, let me alter my position to be a bit more clear:

The Index tells you to use the Librarus Discipline...which has been updated and is NOT listed on the Index datasheet (aside from name).
The Index datasheet says you may use the Librarus discipline, which is CURRENLY located in the CODEX
Please state what rule allows you to use an Index Discipline that is outdated?

It would be different if the Index datasheet said you may use powers A, B and C from the Librarus discipline, but it does not. It just says you may use powers from the Librarus discipline.
And again, these powers are currently located in the Codex.

Then what is the Librarius power list in the Index, if I might ask, if it's not a Libarius power list?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Then what is the Librarius power list in the Index, if I might ask, if it's not a Libarius power list?

It is outdated piece of rules which is no longer used. Like all your 7th edition books.

 Crimson wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Then what is the Librarius power list in the Index, if I might ask, if it's not a Libarius power list?

It is outdated piece of rules which is no longer used. Like all your 7th edition books.

Oh! I presume you have evidence to show that?

Y'know, since you've chosen a biker librarian from the index, which informs me that the book has not categorically been replaced, like all my 7th edition books have.

I really have no energy to argue. This is one of those things which are an easy way to find people you don't want to play with.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Then what is the Librarius power list in the Index, if I might ask, if it's not a Libarius power list?

It is outdated piece of rules which is no longer used. Like all your 7th edition books.

Oh! I presume you have evidence to show that?

Y'know, since you've chosen a biker librarian from the index, which informs me that the book has not categorically been replaced, like all my 7th edition books have.

The book itself has yet to be replaced (although I suspect it may be once all Codices are released). But GW has made it abundantly clear that if and updated version of any rule exists, you use that version.
This is true of points and wargear for sure, but why would it not be true to psychic disciplines.

I mean, we needed several FAQs and a flow chart just to know that it is ok to use options NOT included in the Codex in the first place.
If you cannot see this as a clear demonstration that GW assumes everyone will uses the most updated version of a thing, I cannot go any further. GW was nice enough to allow Bike Libbies, Warp Jump Autarch and Twin Autocannon Dreads, but in every other instance we are supposed to use updated versions where possible.

It really is silly to use a Datasheet that says you can use X and not be able to use the most recent version of X, UNLESS X is clearly defined on said Datasheet. The Librarus discipline is not laid out on any Datasheet, much less the Index ones. And none of the FAQs or Erratas allowing the use of Index datasheets or options also give you permission to use Index psychic disciplines

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Alright, I accept that. One could press the point that "psychic powers" aren't on the list of things used from the new codex, but yeah, I'm convinced, generally, because I think that argument is weak.

 Galef wrote:
Well, let me alter my position to be a bit more clear:

The Index tells you to use the Librarus Discipline...which has been updated and is NOT listed on the Index datasheet (aside from name).
The Index datasheet says you may use the Librarus discipline, which is CURRENLY located in the CODEX
Please state what rule allows you to use an Index Discipline that is outdated?

The designers commentary gives specific instructions to use the index datasheet. And the index datasheet gives specific instructions to use the librarius discipline from the index. It even specifies the page in the index, which is 10 for SM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
But GW has made it abundantly clear that if and updated version of any rule exists, you use that version. This is true of points and wargear for sure, but why would it not be true to psychic disciplines.

I dont know why they excluded psychic disciplines, ask them. RAW is crystal clear.

 Galef wrote:

GW was nice enough to allow Bike Libbies, Warp Jump Autarch and Twin Autocannon Dreads, but in every other instance we are supposed to use updated versions where possible.

Except psychic disciplines.

 Galef wrote:
And none of the FAQs or Erratas allowing the use of Index datasheets or options also give you permission to use Index psychic disciplines

What ? The index datasheet clearly states what psychic disciplines you can use. There is no need for further instructions.

Other Indexes also reference page number for things later superceded by Codex entries, cf Guard tanks in R&H/DKoK armies. It's almost as if they couldn't psychically (see what I did there?) predict future page numbers in future books. That's where the powers were at the time so they told you where they were... now they're in the Codex, because the Librarius discipline has been updated, and the catch-all "use latest stuff" instruction tells us to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I really have no energy to argue. This is one of those things which are an easy way to find people you don't want to play with.

Very much agreed!

Just so that my stance is clear, I do not play SM. I have some for collection purposes and to play small games at home with my kids.

I am arguing for an objective (well, what I hope is objective) stand point that Marine players have Librarians on Bikes that they have converted and used when they were a perfectly valid option. Meaning when a Librarian had a single datasheet with access to a full discipline of power and could be give a Bike to ride.

It isn't fair that GW decided to A) split that option into a separate unit then B) decide not to include it in the codex because an official model doesn't exist.
A Librarian is still a Librarian whether or not he has a piece of metal on wheels between his legs.

While I see your point that the Index datasheet does say to use the Librarus discipline and you can assume from the same book, it also does NOT reference the Index.
Looking at my Index copy it says "...It know Smite and 2 powers from the Libraruis discipline (pg 10)"
Is there a Librarius Discipline in the Codex? Yes. - Is it on pg 10? I don't know, but probably not.

Does a referenced page number matter to "confirm" which book you should be getting the relevant rules from?
I would (and am) argue a big fat NO. I've played this game long enough to see plenty of Codex entries reference page number in the main rule book, only for that rule book to be updated and the page number no longer match the new AND CURRENT rules.

It is no different in this case. We have an updated Librarius discipline and a unit (which we are being give special permission to use in the first place) that can use the Librarius discipline.
There is only 1 current Librarius discipline and it has 6 powers available.

To argue otherwise is a middle finger to SM players who own Bike Librarians.

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 Galef wrote:
Just so that my stance is clear, I do not play SM. I have some for collection purposes and to play small games at home with my kids.

I do play SM, sort of.

 Galef wrote:

It isn't fair that GW decided to A) split that option into a separate unit then B) decide not to include it in the codex because an official model doesn't exist.
A Librarian is still a Librarian whether or not he has a piece of metal on wheels between his legs.

True, its not fair. And i have no idea why GW doesnt let index librarians use the codex psychic disciplines. Anyway, that there isnt an official model is not an argument, because there is a lot of stuff that isnt available from GW but the models is still being sold. Multimeltas for dreads dont exist, but dreads are still available. Twin plasmaguns for razorbacks dont exist, razorbacks are still available.

 Galef wrote:

While I see your point that the Index datasheet does say to use the Librarus discipline and you can assume from the same book, it also does NOT reference the Index.
Looking at my Index copy it says "...It know Smite and 2 powers from the Libraruis discipline (pg 10)"
Is there a Librarius Discipline in the Codex? Yes. - Is it on pg 10? I don't know, but probably not.

The index datasheet dont tell you to look in the codex, neither do the designers commentary give you permission to use the codex psychic disciplines. The index is still valid, and there is a librarius discipline on pg. 10.

 Galef wrote:


It is no different in this case. We have an updated Librarius discipline and a unit (which we are being give special permission to use in the first place) that can use the Librarius discipline.
There is only 1 current Librarius discipline and it has 6 powers available.

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The codex also tells you explicitly to use the updated librarius discipline for all Psykers which can use powers from the librarius discipline. This clearly includes index psykers as the dicipine has the same name, superseding the instructions on the index. You could still use the index table if you wanted o guess, if you didn't have the codex.

Thanks Captyn_Bob! I didn't even catch that. That's a pretty definitive answer in my book

I think a lesson we can all learn from this is that GW has rules spread across too many sources and if you do not have all the pieces, you can make the wrong conclusion.
This was actually one of my concerns when GW announced that Codices were coming back. While the Indexes were not perfect, at least the rules were in fewer sources

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edit: ah already covered

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The codex also tells you explicitly to use the updated librarius discipline for all Psykers which can use powers from the librarius discipline. This clearly includes index psykers as the dicipine has the same name, superseding the instructions on the index. You could still use the index table if you wanted o guess, if you didn't have the codex.

Where does it say that ? Page ?

p5freak wrote:

Where does it say that ? Page ?

202.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The codex also tells you explicitly to use the updated librarius discipline for all Psykers which can use powers from the librarius discipline. This clearly includes index psykers as the dicipine has the same name, superseding the instructions on the index. You could still use the index table if you wanted o guess, if you didn't have the codex.

 Crimson wrote:

p5freak wrote:

Where does it say that ? Page ?
202.

I dont see that anywhere on p. 202. All it says is to generate pychic powers for psykers that can use powers from the librarian discipline using the table below. If you follow the instructions on the designers commentarys last page you never get access to the codex. Pick a librarian from the index, pick psychic powers from the index.

p5freak wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The codex also tells you explicitly to use the updated librarius discipline for all Psykers which can use powers from the librarius discipline. This clearly includes index psykers as the dicipine has the same name, superseding the instructions on the index. You could still use the index table if you wanted o guess, if you didn't have the codex.

 Crimson wrote:

p5freak wrote:

Where does it say that ? Page ?
202.

I dont see that anywhere on p. 202. All it says is to generate pychic powers for psykers that can use powers from the librarian discipline using the table below. If you follow the instructions on the designers commentarys last page you never get access to the codex. Pick a librarian from the index, pick psychic powers from the index.

Is the Librarian on a bike a psyker using the Librarius discipline? Then he gets his powers from the codex using the table. That supercedes what it says for Librarius in the index. It really is that simple.

Is it page 202 of the Codex and you looked at pg 202 of the Index?
If the Codex says you use the update discipline for ALL psykers that access that discipline, that pretty much puts this issue to bed.

Librarian on Bike isn't in the codex, so you can't use the updated rules for it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Librarian on Bike isn't in the codex, so you can't use the updated rules for it.

Oh yes you can!

"Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERS that can use powers from the Librarius discipline using the table below."

Index Librarians qualify for this. Also all other instructions tell us that index units get Chapter Tactics etc. So sorry, Librarians on Bikes haven't forgotten three powers compared to their brethren. Codex updates discipline, Codex tells us to use updated table for Psykers. QED. There's literally no valid argument against this, RAW or RAI.

Actually, the designers would intend that models in an index/codex would only use rules from either the BRB or the book in which that model is in. Therefore index models would only use index rules (the psychic powers from the index). Historically GW has given the same name to different powers so just because 2 rules have the same name does not mean that models get to choose which of the rules to use. The codex does not say that models that are only found in the index get to use some/all codex rules. The designers gave a specific list of which index rules get updated to the codex and psychic rules are not among them. Ergo, index psykers use index powers.

Which ignores the sentence I just quoted, which is a more up-to-date directive on how to choose powers. Other than that you might have been fine, but that one line blows your argument out of the water.

Not at all. Your statement refers only to models in your book. It does not say that psykers from the index can use that table. If the designers had listed psychic powers as something to convert from index to codex then you would be correct. You don't have permission to give index models the usage of their codex except in specific circumstances none of which cover psyker abilities.
As I stated, in the past GW has had instances of 2 abilities with the same name but having different rules. At this point in time we can only presume that there are 2 different rules labelled "Libarius disciplines".

Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.

Is the Bike Libbie in your army/detachment? Yes
Does its datasheet say it may use Librarius powers? Yes

Therefore, the Codex directs us that at the step in which you generate psychic powers for all models IN YOUR ARMY, you are thusly given permission to pick from the discipline in the Codex for all models meeting the above criteria.

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Index librarians use index librarius discipline. The designers commentary are crystal clear how to handle it. You use the index datasheet, and the index datasheet tells you to use psychic powers from the index pg. 10. Nowhere in the designers commentary you are given permission to use the codex librarian discipline for index librarians. As i already said, doing so leads to weird results. I have already given an example, the BA librarian on bike using wings of sanguinius. His movement cannot be increased to 12, if its already 14. It makes no sense. Index librarians are not meant to receive codex psychic powers.

p5freak wrote:
Index librarians use index librarius discipline. The designers commentary are crystal clear how to handle it. You use the index datasheet, and the index datasheet tells you to use psychic powers from the index pg. 10. Nowhere in the designers commentary you are given permission to use the codex librarian discipline for index librarians. As i already said, doing so leads to weird results. I have already given an example, the BA librarian on bike using wings of sanguinius. His movement cannot be increased to 12, if its already 14. It makes no sense. Index librarians are not meant to receive codex psychic powers.

I feel like this is where the breakdown in communication is. There is only 1 Librarius discipline, not 2. So when an Index datasheet references the discipline, regardless of whatever page number it has in parenthesis, you use the discipline in the most current book. The index datasheet DOES NOT say you may only use the discipline on page 10, it says you may use the Librarius discipline, then has an irrelevant reference to (pg 10) in which the outdated version of the discipline exists

There is 7th ed precedence for this as well. The Daemon codex had 3 psychic disciplines, each with only 3 powers (and the primaris). When the Daemonic Incursion book came out, it included expanded versions of those same 3 disciplines, but with 6 powers each. The codex entries still had the page reference for the older version, yet the new version of the disciplines were allowed because the entries still said you can use X discipline and that discipline had been updated.
This is not the first time a discipline has been updated. And again, it has been UPDATED. They are NOT 2 separate disciplines.

In your example with the BA bike libbie, this is purely player's choice. If you already have M14, then just don't cast Wings. easy

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I don't play BA, so I am assuming that Wings of Sanguinus is one of the powers for this point.
I have not yet played any games with random abilities, always chosen ones, with that said, for the Librarian on a bike, why would you even chose that power in the first place if your movies already faster than what the power would grant? Simply give them a more useful power....

 Galef wrote:
Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.I

The "All" that you highlight is used to mean "all (of the models in this book)" use..... It is always understood that unless specified somewhere that the rules in 1 book only refer to the models in that book. Otherwise what happens when GW makes 2 different rules with the same name (as they've done in the past)? Do all models use this same rule regardless of which book they come from? Of course not, players know that that specific form of that rule only applies to the models in that book.