Since everyone and their mother seemingly has access to rerolls to charge distance while also getting other melee buffs ('Ere we go!, Icon of Khorne, upcoming Locus of Khorne etc.) I suggest a change to the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

Righteous Zeal

You may reroll failed charge rolls for Black Templars units with this Chapter Tactic. Further, any unit with this Chapter Tactics fights twice in each Fight Phase instead of once.

People are obviously going to point out that this is a massive buff, and it is. That's the entire point; Codex: Space Marines is essentially a mono-build where you either play Razorbacks with Guilliman or you get stomped. This buff wouldn't give Razorback spam any sort of buff whatsoeve, but it would let Chapter Tactics: Black Templars be non-trash tier for the first time since 5th edition.

Are there any melee units in the book that would break the game by stealing a page from Khorne's book? Khorne Berzerkers would still be better than most of the melee units, and of the ones that could be better Assault Terminators have issues with getting to their target and Honour Guard are, quite frankly, awful as they currently are.

I don't object to the raw power boost. Most marine melee units are meh-to-good rather than amazing. I would, however, be concerned that having to go back and activate so many units twice could be rather annoying and time consuming.

Perhaps a bonus on the charge? Something like +1 Attack in a fight phase if you charged in the preceding charge phase? Or even doubling a model's Attacks characteristic if they charged in the charge phase? My concern there would be that this threatens to step on Blood Angels' toes quite a bit.

All Black Templars are Khorne Berserkers? No, I don't think so.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I don't object to the raw power boost. Most marine melee units are meh-to-good rather than amazing. I would, however, be concerned that having to go back and activate so many units twice could be rather annoying and time consuming.

Perhaps a bonus on the charge? Something like +1 Attack in a fight phase if you charged in the preceding charge phase? Or even doubling a model's Attacks characteristic if they charged in the charge phase? My concern there would be that this threatens to step on Blood Angels' toes quite a bit.

I'd step on any other Chapter's toes in a heartbeat at this point.

+1 attack on the charge would just be a worse version of the World Eaters Legion tactics though.

 alextroy wrote:
All Black Templars are Khorne Berserkers? No, I don't think so.

Ignoring the part where I explicitly pointed out that Khorne Berzerkers would still be better than the majority of the melee units in question. A World Eaters Khorne Berzerker has twice the attacks on the charge and better S than Crusaders (better than Vanguard Veterans too), even without fighting twice. Not to mention that any Khorne Marine unit can, as you put it, already be a Black Templar for 10 points per unit.

Gonna say no to this one.
+1 attack on the charge is fine.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Gonna say no to this one.
+1 attack on the charge is fine.

Again, that'd just be a worse version of the World Eaters Legion trait.

We know that Khorne Berzerkers are perfectly fine rules-wise, being good without being broken. Even with (effectively) double the attacks most melee units in C:SM would be worse than Berzerkers, so what's the big deal?

+1 attack on charge would be alot more fun than the current reroll charge range.

We can start with thematic consistency. Every unit with the ability to fight more than once are 'berserker' type units. They are units that fight with insane abandon. Templars are righteous crusaders, not insane butchers.

Then there is a matter of the power of the rule. Fighting twice may be unimpressive for Tactical Marines and Devastators, but it will be really good for characters and the various veteran units like Terminators, Vanguard Veterans, and Command Squads. You don't see fanatical combatants like Khorne Daemons fighting twice. Why should your average Templar be doing that?

If rerolling charges is not good enough for Templars, then a little additional bonus may be in need. However, it seems rather thematic giving Templars have always loved to run towards the enemy to get into grips with them. A more thematic bonus to add would be a rule allowing them to treat Rapid Fire X as Assault X Weapons when they advance. This would mean that Templar units could move toward the enemy quickly while still laying down some firepower.

Still not great and makes the Chapter Tactic too good with both bonuses (Black Legion gets that along with +1 Leadership), but you get the idea.

Thematically Black Templars shouldn't be in the Vanilla Codex in the first place; the Codex Astartes places much more emphasis on shooting than Templar doctrine does. As long as they are, however, this level of buffs is what's required to make Templar melee not suck. The last three editions (6th, 7th and now 8th) Black Templars have been at the bottom of the pile of the Space Marine Chapters because having good enough melee units in a book full of generalists and shooting units wasn't ever going to happen.

Treating Rapid Fire weapons as Assault for the purposes of Advancing would be a bandaid on a missing leg; Black Templars would still be among the worst Chapter Tactics because buffing the melee potential of units that don't want to be in melee in the first place is a lousy Chapter Tactic. If we can't break Black Templars out of the Vanilla Codex to buff the melee potential and we can't buff the melee units in the book because it'd affect every other Chapter to the same degree, then the remaining point to tweak is the Chapter Tactics.

I'd also argue that the Black Templars are more berserker-like than you give them credit for. The World Eaters and the Black Templars are, in a sense, mirrors of each other; the World Eaters are rage for the sake of rage itself, while the Templars are rage harnessed for a purpose. Sigismund and Khârn's rivalry and duel at the Siege of Terra mirrors this; they're different, and yet similar.

How about this though? Give the BT back rerolls in close combat at all times, and make auras that grant rerolls give you an extra attack in CC instead. You'd still be stuck with the crappy melee units of C:SM but at least this way you'd be able to make them do something through using characters. It encourages your Characters to get up close and personal to buff the melee units, it doesn't buff Razorspam, and it combines nicely with the Zeal theme (zeal being connected to rerolls in CC as evidenced by Chaplains and Priests providing rerolls).

Gitdakka wrote:
+1 attack on charge would be alot more fun than the current reroll charge range.

It would also be significantly worse.

I would definitely favour rerolls to hit over extra attacks. I feel like Black Templars need the righteous zeal boost too movement, charges or running as well to completely encapsulate their character. The question is whether this is too powerful in all. Perhaps just rerolls on 1s, or a disadvantage in some other area to compensate, like shooting with heavy weapons..

Marksman224 wrote:
I would definitely favour rerolls to hit over extra attacks. I feel like Black Templars righteous zeal boost too movement, charges or running as well to completely encapsulate their character though. The question is whether this is too powerful in all. Perhaps just rerolls on 1s, or a disadvantage in some other area to compensate, like shooting with heavy weapons..

Which makes Chaplains and Captains worse. Which means the main non-redundant HQ's the Librarian (which they can't take anyway), and the...Techmarine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which makes Chaplains and Captains worse. Which means the main non-redundant HQ's the Librarian (which they can't take anyway), and the...Techmarine.

Yes I would say that is the main problem, the resulting redundancy of other units. I still want to think about this because I think there might be possible Chapter Tactics that would make the Templars great again. With regards to extra attacks BT already have more of a boost over other marines than they used to. In this edition chainswords now double the number of attacks of intiates at all times, whereas in previous editions it was only a 50% increase when comparing charging units. I know this is more to do with charging no longer giving a universal +1 A, but I like the reduction in the number of dice we have to roll and it would be a shame to loose it.

Re-rolling charges is a really good ability, especially for units that can deep strike, but I agree that the Black Templars seem to be lacking a little bit.

I think that some of the problem isn't that the Chapter Tactic is bad but rather that some units have problems. Basic Marines, even with chainswords and jump packs, just don't seem that great in close combat. Unfortunately for the Black Templars those types of units often make up big parts of their army.

I think that buffs from Captains, Chaplains and other characters are especially important for Black Templars, but it would be nice to see them get a little more punch built in. I don't play them myself, but my brother does and it's a shame how easily my Boyz seem to trounce them in close combat.

Giving Crusader Squads a buff would be nice. Many other units that can have a lot of models get +1 Attack or re-rolls to wound or something along those lines when they have X+ models. This is somewhat besides the point, but I think it would be nice if Crusader Squads had some sort of built-in leadership protection beyond ATSKNF as they can take units of up to twenty models.

Ideally I would like to see them get their own mini-dex that would bring back Vows. The Vows had both good and bad parts but because you could choose the right Vow for the situation it was mostly a good thing.

Black Templars have a fine Chapter Tactic overall. The primary issues are:
1. Non-Dreads get nothing in the codex
2. SM melee units are overall blech. Remember that our overall best option is an 18 point model at 4 attacks with two Chainswords. And thats mostly because of the high movement. Terminators got better but not by much, Honour Guard are fething capped at 2 man squads of all things, and Command Squads are better off spamming special weapons.

Hmm, I know it might be a bit complex, but what about a three-part tactic?

1. Re-roll charge distance.
   
2. May always strike before units that did not charge (so not as powerful as Howling Banshees with Phoenix Lord who always go first).
   
3. May charge after falling back.

This means they still don't have the raw damage of World Eaters, but instead get a lot of close combat flexibility; striking first can be more powerful than doing more damage depending upon the units and situation, meanwhile charging after falling back means you can't be tar-pitted as easily, as you can just pull away and charge what you actually want to be fighting (if it's in range).

None of these is individually super powerful, not compared to the Ultramarines tactic, but together should give a lot of interesting flexibility for a mixed combat army.

So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.

+2" to all advancing movements

 kastelen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.

+2" to all advancing movements

Huh. I did indeed forget about that.

My point, while factually incorrect, still stands though-White Scars (at the very least) would need a significant buff too.

Really, the Tactics all need two parts if we are only going to apply everything to just infantry and Dreads but that's a different discussion.

There are six chapter tacitcs apart from the black templars, three have one part, the other three have two parts. The three with one part apply for a large portion of the game: Feel no Pain, Master Crafted, Stealth. With the other Chapter Tactics each part is situation specific or limited in power, so in some sense it balances out. So it does seem that the Black Templars are weeker in a sense, they have a moderately good bonus to one specific action. Personally I love re-rolling the charge, we just need one little extra thing; unless a separate codex isn't out of the question.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.

+2" to all advancing movements

Huh. I did indeed forget about that.

My point, while factually incorrect, still stands though-White Scars (at the very least) would need a significant buff too.

I disagree, with the three abilities I proposed number 3 (charge after falling back) is actually a very minor improvement due to number 2 (always fight first vs. non-charging enemies). For White Scars charge after falling back can both be used to avoid tarpits, but also to always fight first due to charging, but Black Templars as I proposed wouldn't need to do this since an enemy can't charge in your turn, so they will almost always fight first in your turn regardless, and sometimes in the enemy turn as well.

This means that for Black Templars charging after falling back would only really be useful if you get stuck against a tarpit unit when a more preferable target is nearby, so it's really just a little extra help to avoid tarpit units. Also, charging after falling back is more useful to a bike heavy force (granted, nothing stops you running bike-heavy Black Templars if you want though) because they can move farther to begin with, with or without charging re-rolls.

With that in mind, number 2 is the real improvement, number 3 is just a situational anti-tarpit bonus.

 Haravikk wrote:
May charge after falling back.

I'd say add this to the existing Chapter Tactics and add the following:

1. If an enemy psyker manifests a psychic power within 6" of a Black Templar Model, the power fails on a 6+ roll (on a D6).
   
2. If an enemy psyker manifests a psychic power against a Black Templar Model or Unit, the power fails on a 6+ roll (on a D6).
   
   
   I'd say this and / or allow Black Templars to use the 'Abhor the Witch' Strategem more than once would be good.
   
   I also think that Black Templars suffer from not having their own codex or unique units and formations. Our names characters are - relatively speaking - not really any better than any other SM named character, and we only have one unique non-HQ unit which isn't as good as people seem to think it can be (I've heard people rave about the ability to use Neophytes without realising how hard Crusader Squads as a whole can be to use). So I reckon reverting out anti-psychic abilities closer to what it was in 7th is a good start, but Black Templars would also need their own codex again.

If little brother black templars get something like that then imperial fists should get their rerolls against tanks instead of flippin fortifications.

and other brother crimson fists should get their own thing.

IMHO:

BT should be rerolls charges, rerolls hits and or wounds in the first round of combat.

gives them a little something something and can be built autonomously rather than relying on characters to buff.

Charging after falling back doesn't feel like the right kind of bonus for Templars at all, since they're the kind of zealots that wouldn't fall back in the first place. There should certainly not be any overlap between different chapter tactics either, that just sells short two chapters and their successors.

Reroll charges and +1 attack when they charge.

 Haravikk wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.

+2" to all advancing movements

Huh. I did indeed forget about that.

My point, while factually incorrect, still stands though-White Scars (at the very least) would need a significant buff too.

I disagree, with the three abilities I proposed number 3 (charge after falling back) is actually a very minor improvement due to number 2 (always fight first vs. non-charging enemies). For White Scars charge after falling back can both be used to avoid tarpits, but also to always fight first due to charging, but Black Templars as I proposed wouldn't need to do this since an enemy can't charge in your turn, so they will almost always fight first in your turn regardless, and sometimes in the enemy turn as well.

This means that for Black Templars charging after falling back would only really useful if you get stuck against a tarpit unit when a more preferable target is nearby, so it's really just a little extra help to avoid tarpit units. Also, charging after falling back is more useful to a bike heavy force (granted, nothing stops you running bike-heavy Black Templars if you want though) because they can move farther to begin with, with or without charging re-rolls.

With that in mind, number 2 is the real improvement, number 3 is just a situational anti-tarpit bonus.

Good points. With all that in mind though, I'd probably advise dropping the "charge back in" part. As Marksman points out, it doesn't quite fit Templars. Plus, you basically just said, "Yeah. The main part of White Scars' tactics is basically an unimportant add on that I threw on top of the other benefits I gave Templars." Obviously that's ignoring most of the context, but the point still stands.

 alextroy wrote:
All Black Templars are Khorne Berserkers? No, I don't think so.

Imagine assault terminators/ centurions or TH/SS captains with that gak

A buff is ok but +1A on the charge is enough really.

Reduce neophites cost to 8-9 ppm (lets go black tide)

Give BT chaplains the ability to deny the witch (+1?)

+1 attack on charge

Allow troops in LRCs to disembark AFTER movement

Reduce price for grimaldus (100pts)

Helbrect aura to units w/in 6" not models wholly within

New unit of sword brothers which would basically be berserkers or some sort of actual good CQC unit (4 base attacks, +1 s, -2 ap, 2w/re-roll wounds of 1? swords, no ranged upgrades, deny the witch on a 5+, jump packs?, 20-24 points?)

bananathug wrote:
Reduce neophites cost to 8-9 ppm (lets go black tide)


New unit of sword brothers which would basically be berserkers or some sort of actual good CQC unit (4 base attacks, +1 s, -2 ap, 2w/re-roll wounds of 1? swords, no ranged upgrades, deny the witch on a 5+, jump packs?, 20-24 points?)

So basically Sanguinary Guard +.

Just to remind people of the Blood Angels tactics - you know a very assault based Chapter/Legion - is; +1 to wound on the charge; and troops get to control objectives even if outnumbered.

I don't want to make Black Templars Blood Angels+

Blood Angels also have melee units that aren't dog gak.

Pandabeer wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
All Black Templars are Khorne Berserkers? No, I don't think so.

Imagine assault terminators/ centurions or TH/SS captains with that gak

A buff is ok but +1A on the charge is enough really.

Yeah, imagine BT having a good melee unit, the horror!

It really does suck that there's not really a good way to reflect the CC zeal templars have with the current SM codex. I could see fighting in CC twice being a 2CP stratagem for the BT, called "Righteous Zeal".

Maybe to emphasize their focus on CC and swordsmanship after Sigismund, their CT could include that they get to swing their attacks in combat even after the model has been killed before removing them from the game. Add +1 attack on the charge on top of that and they have more of a CC emphasis in the game, and makes taking care of black tides ideally through shooting rather than in CC, where they can still tear through enemy units even in death.

I am getting the impression that +1 attack if charging might be the best choice and the biggest bonus that one could permit, especially combined with charge re-rolls. I think anything more than that would just be way too powerful for a chapter tactics rule. I also like the idea suggested for a default psychic save of 6+ though there might be argument for 5+ like the templars used to have. A 6+ save is very low for just one save per power or unit.

In any case Chapter Tactics can only consist of one or two simple, minor buffs. If there were a number of different rules that the Black Templars came with, like some are suggesting, then there would have to be something taken away from them elsewhere to make it fair.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Blood Angels also have melee units that aren't dog gak.

Pandabeer wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
All Black Templars are Khorne Berserkers? No, I don't think so.

Imagine assault terminators/ centurions or TH/SS captains with that gak

A buff is ok but +1A on the charge is enough really.

Yeah, imagine BT having a good melee unit, the horror!

There's a difference between buffing something (which I am ok with) and making something hilariously OP.

How about generating extra attacks on a hit of 6 or 5? Or maybe generating auto-hits, like Necrons do with tesla weapons.

No, the suggested OP Chapter Tactic is far too strong.

Since everyone and their mother has access to reroll shooting and the ability for explosive shooting can maybe Orks have their BS increased to 3+ because currently dakkaddakkadakka is a complete waste?

If you truly believe you need a buff I think a morale bonus (can only lose d3 or 1 model to morale) would be more fitting and less wish listing, personally.

Since my original suggestion is apparently "far too strong" and "hilariously OP", let's take a look at a unit-by-unit basis to see where the problem would be then, shall we? Warning: wall of text incoming. EDIT: Is there any way to make spoiler tags inside spoiler tags work?

--HQ--

High Marshal Helbrecht


The Emperor's Champion


Chaplain Grimaldus


Cenobyte Servitors


Captain in Terminator Armour


Captain in Cataphractii Armour


Captain


Captain on Bike


Primaris Captain


Captain in Gravis Armour


Librarian


Primaris Librarian


Librarian in Terminator Armour


Chaplain in Terminator Armour


Chaplain


Chaplain on Bike


Primaris Chaplain


Techmarine


Techmarine on Bike


Lieutenants


Primaris Lieutenants


--Troops--
Tactical Squad


Intercessor Squad


Scout Squad


Crusader Squad


--Elites--


Chapter Ancient


Chapter Champion


Honour Guard


Company Ancient


Apothecary


Company Champion


Company Veterans (AKA Sword Brethren)


Servitors


Primaris Apothecary


Reiver Squad


Aggressor Squad


Terminator Squad


Terminator Assault Squad


Cataphractii Terminator Squad


Tartaros Terminator Squad


Vanguard Veteran Squad


Sternguard Veteran Squad


Dreadnought


Ironclad Dreadnought


Venerable Dreadnought


Contemtor Dreadnought


Redemptor Dreadnought


Centurion Assault Squads


--Fast Attack--
Bike Squad


Assault Squad


Attack Bike Squads


Scout Bike Squads


Inceptor Squad


--Heavy Support--
Devastator Squad


Centurion Devastators


Hellblaster Squad


Thunderfire Cannon


In conclusion, the biggest improvements would be to Helbrecht, the Emperor's Champion, Assault Terminators, Intercessors, and all three types of Veterans.
-Helbrecht and the Emperor's Champion would overshadow and come close to overshadowing comparable units (Khârn for Helbrecht, Juggerlord or Demon Princes for the Emperor's Champion), although none of these overshadowed units are broken in the first place.
-Intercessors and Sternguard Veterans would have their melee power boosted to be on par with Ork Boyz in mobs of 20+ which, while good, isn't overpowered. They'd retain their squishiness, but be able to actually be generalists and dangerous in close combat.
-Jump Pack Vanguard would be comparable to World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers, trading hitting power for mobility or (a significant) volume of attacks for hitting power and mobility. Company Veterans would be weaker in CC than Berzerkers, but would compensate by having actual shooting options to make an excellent generalist unit that can actually compete in both melee and shooting.
-TH/SS Terminators would ruin the day of more or less anything they got into combat with, but would still have the problem of actually getting there in the first place, and the fact that they are less tanky against Plasma than Tactical Marines.

What part exactly is it that is "far too strong" or "hilariously OP"? It'd bring the best melee units in the Codex up to par with Khorne Berzerkers (with TH/SS Terminators being harder to compare since there aren't too many similar units) and the generalist Veterans to the level of Ork Boyz. Razorbacks wouldn't be buffed, Guilliman gunlines wouldn't be buffed, Stormravens wouldn't be buffed, you can't even take Librarians so no buffs to Smite, and you're not getting -1 to hit from Raven Guard or 6+ FNP on all your infantry units.

This'd obviously make Chapter Tactics: Black Templars better than many of the others; the solution then is to buff those to levels where they can compete with other Codices, not to slap every Chapter Tactic down because the others also are bad.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

What part exactly is it that is "far too strong" or "hilariously OP"?

You are doubling the close combat power of every infantry unit and dreadnaught without raising the points cost of any of them. Khorner Bezerkers cost 16 ppm, but Crusader Initiates cost 13 ppm and you want to give them the same ability. That just isn't fair. The same is true for every other Black Templars unit, unless you want to raise the price of them all by 25%. As for this compared to every other Chapter Tactics rules, sure you could bring every other chapter to the same level but then everything in the codex would be too powerful for its price.

What is needed is a Chapter Tactics rule that brings Black Templars to the same level as the other chapters are now.

Marksman224 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

What part exactly is it that is "far too strong" or "hilariously OP"?

You are doubling the close combat power of every infantry unit and dreadnaught without raising the points cost of any of them. Khorner Bezerkers cost 16 ppm, but Crusader Initiates cost 13 ppm and you want to give them the same ability. That just isn't fair. The same is true for every other Black Templars unit, unless you want to raise the price of them all by 25%. As for this compared to every other Chapter Tactics rules, sure you could bring every other chapter to the same level but then everything in the codex would be too powerful for its price.

What is needed is a Chapter Tactics rule that brings Black Templars to the same level as the other chapters are now.

What part of "Khorne Berzerkers would still be better because they have more attacks, innate S5 and the ability to take Chainaxes" was unclear? Crusader Initiates would reach the offensive level of Ork Boyz. They'd have literally half the attacks of the Khorne Berzerkers at a lower strength.

I'll write this with really big, bolded letters so you don't ignore it again:

Crusader Squads (and Assault Marines) with double their current amount of attacks would have half the number of attacks of World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers at a lower strength, and Khorne Berzerkers can also take Chainaxes for better AP and S6.

Even Vanguard Veterans, arguably currently one of the best melee units in the book, would merely reach parity in number of attacks with World Eater Khorne Berzerkers (assuming double chainswords on the Vanguard Veterans), and the Khorne Berzerkers still have S5 (or 6, 7 on the charge if World Eaters which I've been assuming) with the potential to have better AP.

I don't understand the reluctance to make things better without a point increase. If something is underperforming for its current cost the solution isn't to give it a buff and to make it more expensive to compensate, it's to make it better for the same cost. That's literally the entire point of buffing something. Crusader Squads are underperforming at their current cost, so we either drop the cost or we make them better. Increasing their cost to match their new abilities just means they're relatively just as powerful as they currently are, which is what we're trying to remedy in the first place. If something is rubbish you up the stats, you don't pretend it's balanced already.

Khorne Berzerkers would still be at worst on-par with every melee unit in the book, and you're calling this "far too strong" and "hilariously OP". Better buckle down for the Daemons Codex then.

Khorne Berserkers: 16 points base, for 2 (4) S5 WS 3+ attacks.
17 points to upgrade to S6 AP-1, or keep chainsword for +1 attack per model.

Vanguard Veterans: 16 points base, for 2 (4) S4 WS 3+ attacks.
May take a second chainsword, upgrading to 4 (8) attacks per model.
May take a Power Weapon, Fist, Lightning Claw, or Thunder Hammer, as well as a Storm Shield.
May take Jump Packs, for vastly increased mobility and Deep Strike.

So, Khorne Berserkers, at 16 PPM, get 3 attacks (4 on the champ) at S5. Vanguard Vets, at 16 PPM, get 4 attacks (5 on the Sergeant) at S4. Berserkers also get a Bolt Pistol, but that means very little.

Edit: MATH!

5 Vanguard Vets, double chainswords, vs. 5 Khorne Berserkers, chainsword and pistol, World Eaters.

Against GEQ:
VV: 42 attacks, 28 hit, 56/3 wound, 112/9 unsaved, 12.44 dead GEQ.
Berserkers: 5 bolt pistol shots, 10/3 hit, 20/9 wound, 40/27 unsaved, plus 42 attacks, 28 hit, 56/3 wound, 112/9 unsaved,13.93 dead GEQ.
Berserkers (Nor Charging): 5 bolt pistol shots, 10/3 hit, 20/9 wound, 40/27 unsaved, plus 32 attacks, 64/3 hit, 128/9 wound, 256/27 unsaved, 10.96 dead GEQ.

Against MEQ:
VV: 42 attacks, 28 hit, 14 wound, 14/3 unsaved, 4.67 dead MEQ.
Berserkers: 5 bolt pistol shots, 10/3 hit, 5/3 wound, 5/9 unsaved, plus 42 attacks, 28 hit, 56/3 wound, 56/9 unsaved, 6.78 dead MEQ.
Berserkers (Not Charging): 5 bolt pistol shots, 10/3 hit, 5/3 wound, 5/9 unsaved, plus 32 attacks, 64/3 hit, 128/9 wound, 128/27 unsaved, 5.30 dead MEQ.

So, assuming the Berserkers get the charge off, and are World Eaters, and shoot their pistols, they perform a little better. If they don't get the charge, though, they still do a little better against MEQs.

But, considering the number of options Vanguard Vets have, I'd take them and their ability to Deep Strike and have a 12" move for a few more points, or AP-3, or storm shields, or etc. etc.

We live in sad times where a meele unit that doesn't has 8-12 attacks per model is automatically thrash.

@AlmightyWalrus
There is no need to be rude to me just because I am mistaken about some detail. All you have to do is point things out.

Having gone over what both of us have written I do realise that Crusader squads will still not be as powerful as Bezerkers. If they both fight twice in combat Crusaders would have 4 attacks and Bezerkers would have 8. This isn't looking too bad. The point you outlined with bold text was not in your previous post as far as I can see, so don't shout at me about it when I had no opportunity to see it before.
On the other hand this rule does feel a bit extreme when applied to every unit in the codex. Seeing the breakdown you did for all the other units in the codex is what makes me more hesitant. The Blood for the Blood God rule only applies to Kharn and Bezerkers from what I can tell. Khorne Bzerkers are an elite unit while Kharn is a named character, which impose detachment restrictions which are another balancing factor. I don't think it's appropriate to apply this rule as broadly as Chapter Tactics. You are absolutely right in that if one wants to buff an army or unit to address a weakness then one shouldn't negate it with a price increase; however there is an upper limit to how far you can fairly buff something without increasing the price, and a few of us here think this proposal goes beyond that limit.

Reroll one or both die?
A least then if you get a 6 on one die you don't have to reroll that die...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think their chapter tactic would be better if there were a penalty for leaving combat.
Anything you charge probably isn't gonna want to be in combat, so I'd say that's more the issue

The problem with your proposed "fix" Almighty Walrus, is that you aren't suggesting it's applied to initiates only, you're suggesting that each and every infantry, Biker and Dreadnought unit gets the "Berzerker buff".

If you want initiates or straight crusaders fixed, propose a solution befitting them, don't suggest an (virtually) army-wide, massive buff for free. You keep stating things like "they'd have the same offensive power as Ork Boyz". You mean Ork Boyz with choppas and 20+ models? Thing is - they don't have a 6+ T shirt save, 5" movement, BS5+ and all the other inherent weaknesses of the Ork army.

You've made your dreadnoughts and bikes twice as effective in cqc for not cost and you believe this to be balanced? No. Khorne bezerkers are an edge case - this would be absurdly imbalanced when you factor the melee weapon options of things like Termies, Dreads and Vets.

Marksman224 wrote:
@AlmightyWalrus
There is no need to be rude to me just because I am mistaken about some detail. All you have to do is point things out.

Sorry if I came across as a bit abrasive, I'll try to tone it down. "This is still worse than Khorne Berzerkers" was a running joke in the summary of units though, it's mentioned at least four times. Honour Guard would still be worse against MEQ than Berzerkers, for example.

Marksman224 wrote:
The Blood for the Blood God rule only applies to Kharn and Bezerkers from what I can tell. Khorne Bzerkers are an elite unit while Kharn is a named character, which impose detachment restrictions which are another balancing factor. I don't think it's appropriate to apply this rule as broadly as Chapter Tactics.

But playing Black Templars is effectively the same limitations that Khârn applies in having to take World Eaters. It's not like you could take Raven Guard or Ultramarines with these buffs, it'd be limited to Black Templars, same as Khârn and old-style Furious Charge is limited to the World Eaters. I'd totally missed that you can't take Khorne Berzerkers as Troops anymore though, so cheers for pointing that out. Still, they'd outperform anything that wasn't also an Elites choice.

Plus, any CSM or Vanilla Marine unit can already use a Stratagem to fight an additional time. The ability is not limited to Berzerkers and Khârn, they're just the only ones (so far) who have it baseline.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

You've made your dreadnoughts and bikes twice as effective in cqc for not cost and you believe this to be balanced? No. Khorne bezerkers are an edge case - this would be absurdly imbalanced when you factor the melee weapon options of things like Termies, Dreads and Vets.

Why? You haven't actually shown this to be the case beyond repeatedly asserting that it would be broken. Dreadnoughts still have to walk across the table to punch the enemy in the face unless you buy a Stormraven to fly them there, at which point you're spending more than a Bloodthirster. I'd certainly hope that something that costs more than 400 points would be powerful, we're getting into Knight territory in cost.

I've already adressed bikes; they'd go from 1 attack per model to two, you still wouldn't want them in CC because their special weapons are the entire point to taking them and S4 AP- attacks are just not worth much at all in such a low quantity. Even with Chainswords you'd still have them be the equivalent of Vanguard Veterans today in damage, which is decent but hardly game-breaking.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
If you want initiates or straight crusaders fixed, propose a solution befitting them, don't suggest an (virtually) army-wide, massive buff for free. You keep stating things like "they'd have the same offensive power as Ork Boyz". You mean Ork Boyz with choppas and 20+ models? Thing is - they don't have a 6+ T shirt save, 5" movement, BS5+ and all the other inherent weaknesses of the Ork army.

Ork Boyz also aren't 13 PPM. The point was to illustrate that the offensive output isn't going to completely obliterate whatever they touch. It's literally identical to where double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans are today, and they're not breaking the game.

 JNAProductions wrote:


But, considering the number of options Vanguard Vets have, I'd take them and their ability to Deep Strike and have a 12" move for a few more points, or AP-3, or storm shields, or etc. etc.

But by taking those options they no longer have 4 attacks per model, and increase their cost.

5 17 PPM Chainsword/Chainaxe Berzerkers vs. 21 5 PPM Vanguard Veterans with Power Axe and Chainsword

Berzerkers vs GEQ:
11 Chainaxe attacks, 7.333 hits, 4.888 wounds, 4.074 after saves.
5 Chainsword attacks, 3.333 hits, 2.222 wounds, 1.481 after saves.
Total: 5.555 dead GEQ, ~15.555 points per wound caused

Berzerkers vs. MEQ
11 Chainaxe attacks, 7.333 hits, 4.888 wounds, 2.444 after saves.
5 Chainsword attacks, 3.333 hits, 2.222 wounds, 0.741 after saves.
Total: 3.185 dead MEQ, ~26.7 points per wound caused

Vanguard Veterans vs. GEQ
11 Power Axe attacks, 7.333 hits, 4..888 wounds, no save allowed.
5 chainsword attacks, 3.333 hits, 2.222 wounds, 1.481 after saves.
Total: 6.370 dead GEQ, ~16.5 points per wound caused.

Vanguard Veterans vs. MEQ
11 Power Axe attacks, 7.333 hits, 4.888 wounds, 3.259 after saves.
5 Chainsword attacks, 3.333 hits, 1.667 wounds, 0.556 after saves.
Total: 3.815 dead MEQ, ~27.5 points per wound caused.

You could get the Vanguard Vets slightly more point-efficient by using Power Swords instead, since they're 1 PPM cheaper and won't change the calculations (the +1S from axe is irrelevant against GEQ but so is the better AP of the Sword, while the +1S is offset by the -1 AP against MEQ). Regardless, my proposed Vanguard Veterans with Power Weapons are less point-efficient at killing both MEQ and GEQ than Khorne Berzerkers. You can of course give Vanguard Veterans Jump Packs, but that's another 2 PPM. I'd certainly hope that a more expensive unit had something going for it over a cheaper one. Plus, you can run Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers if you're worried over mobility and infiltrate them.

Ultimately, Vanguard Veterans would end up rivalling Khorne Berzerkers, with both performing better under certain circumstances. How is that unfair? Sure, Khorne Berzerkers are the most crazed followers of the Blood God, but Black Templar Sword Brethren are the craziest of the bunch that invented the Land Raider Crusader so they could cut their foes to ribbons faster.

Sword Brethren aren't actually literally crazy though. Berserker Marines are. With the nails and corruption and all that.

Which is why Berzerkers have more S than Vanguard Veterans.

You want to give your entire army a 3CP stratagem as a passive ?

While also retaining the re-roll charges, the fact you can't see why this chapter tactic is broken is hilarious.

Yea I'm really struggling to take the OP seriously now. We're being trolled right? Not even the most xenos hating, zealous, self-flagellant loyal servant of the Emperor would try and spin this as a legit Black Templar fix?

And what about Dreadnoughts? They'd perform worse against hordes than Berserkers, but they'd mulch heavy enemies with ease.

Hell, an Ironclad (with their Dreadnought Chainfist) goes from doing an average of (4 attacks, 8/3 hits, 16/9 wounds, for 64/9 or about) 7 wounds to an Imperial Knight to a whopping 14. Or, against, say, a Rhino, they go from hurting it to killing it in one round.

 JNAProductions wrote:

MATH!
.

This is VV with jump packs or walkin?

I think adding +1 attack on the charge across the board gives enough oomph.

 Desubot wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

MATH!
.

This is VV with jump packs or walkin?

Walkin'.

 Rydria wrote:
You want to give your entire army a 3CP stratagem as a passive ?

While also retaining the re-roll charges, the fact you can't see why this chapter tactic is broken is hilarious.

You're assuming that the 3 CP is appropriately costed.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea I'm really struggling to take the OP seriously now. We're being trolled right? Not even the most xenos hating, zealous, self-flagellant loyal servant of the Emperor would try and spin this as a legit Black Templar fix?

So tell me why, beyond variations of "it's broken!" or "it's blatantly overpowered!". Give me actual reasons, not just the same line repeated over and over and then calling me a troll.

I laid out my argument about Dreadnoughts; they're slow and have no good way beyond a 300+ point Stormraven to speed up.

If the problem is the Dreadnoughts, how about just a blanket +2 attacks? For most of the stuff it'd be effectively the same, but the Characters, Dreadnoughts and Veterans wouldn't be as powerful any longer.

And yes, I realize that this'd be better than the World Eaters' trait by quite a margin, but, again, the melee units in Codex: Space Marines are hot garbage to meh at best. +1 attack on the charge, as has been suggested, wouldn't change a thing. You still wouldn't have a viable melee army, because most of the units would still be rubbish.

 Desubot wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

MATH!
.

This is VV with jump packs or walkin?

Either. The only change is points costs, which I didn't calculate. They're the same price without, more expensive with.

this seems a tad powerful for a chapter tactic. I mean, some guys are stuck with BS like rerolling morale tests.

Although now I come to think of it, the dreadnoughts wont benefit much as their issue is being too fragile to make it to assault, their damage output if/when they get there is fine

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

You've made your dreadnoughts and bikes twice as effective in cqc for not cost and you believe this to be balanced? No. Khorne bezerkers are an edge case - this would be absurdly imbalanced when you factor the melee weapon options of things like Termies, Dreads and Vets.

Why? You haven't actually shown this to be the case beyond repeatedly asserting that it would be broken. Dreadnoughts still have to walk across the table to punch the enemy in the face unless you buy a Stormraven to fly them there, at which point you're spending more than a Bloodthirster. I'd certainly hope that something that costs more than 400 points would be powerful, we're getting into Knight territory in cost.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea I'm really struggling to take the OP seriously now. We're being trolled right? Not even the most xenos hating, zealous, self-flagellant loyal servant of the Emperor would try and spin this as a legit Black Templar fix?

So tell me why, beyond variations of "it's broken!" or "it's blatantly overpowered!". Give me actual reasons, not just the same line repeated over and over and then calling me a troll.

I think we have made our argument as thouroughly as possible without simply repeating what you have said. I know that we are just saying "the effects that you just mentioned are broken", but that's all we can say. You say for example that the buff isn't broken because unit A has x so it is comparable to unit B with y, but we argue that that is the reason why it is unbalanced. We are stating our conclusions without mentioning facts, but only because we believe the facts that you have mentioned support our conclusion that this is not a fair proposal. At least that's my assessment of this all.

If you think that this Chapter Tactics proposal is justified in order to boost the currently lacklustre close combat power of default marines, then I think you are looking for something more than just chapter tactics.

Reroll charges and give them an anti-fall back mechanic. Like "zealous follow-through: Whenever an enemy falls back and would leave a black templars squad outside 1" of any enemies, you may roll a dice. On a 4+, the Black templar squad may move up to 6" as if consolidating in the fight phase. If they engage any enemy unit in this way, the black templar unit fights first in the fight phase as if it charged, despite it being the opponent's turn."

Anti-fallback might actually work, and it'd harken back to Righteous Zeal of old. The melee units would still mostly be garbage, but actually being able to threaten to lock stuff in combat would help immensely.

But frankly I'd have to say it needs to be better than what wyches have. Not because we have to have a better version but because even what wyches have is terrible. 4+ to catch someone is nice, but I've seen him fail it more often than not. And wyches aren't exactly the bestest melee unit. We're here complaining about S4 ap- and wyches need to rely on mass S3 ap- lmao

Lol he sent like 7 of them after 2 hellblasters, made it into combat then processed to get 1 wound that I saved hahaha

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Reroll charges and give them an anti-fall back mechanic. Like "zealous follow-through: Whenever an enemy falls back and would leave a black templars squad outside 1" of any enemies, you may roll a dice. On a 4+, the Black templar squad may move up to 6" as if consolidating in the fight phase. If they engage any enemy unit in this way, the black templar unit fights first in the fight phase as if it charged, despite it being the opponent's turn."

See this? THIS is a creative solution to an obvious problem and it isn't broken.

That anti-fallback mechanic sounds pretty good.

You know how you guys took exception to my suggested Ironclad Dreadnought because it'd do half a knight's worth of damage?

Khorne Daemon Prince with Skullreaver vs. Knight

5 attacks, 4.861 hits, 4.320 wounds, 15.123 wounds on average.

That's not including the D3 mortal wounds from each 6 to wound you roll, that'd bring it up to15.512 wounds. This is on a 180 point T6 3+ 5++ Character that can Deep Strike and moves 8" and provides a force multiplier aura.

The Daemon Prince is more expensive, but is more mobile, provides rerolls to 1s to nearby units and can hide from enemy shooting due to being a Character. Oh, and he gets more attacks on the charge and provides reroll to charge distance to nearby Daemons. Oh and that's him not charging, he'd be getting more wounds otherwise.

Tell me again how my proposal is "ludicruously OP"?

Right, so you took a more expensive model with less survability (3+/5++ T6 is worse than 3+ T8), added an artifact, and used a strategem (they don't get native deep strike), and ended up pretty similar to a basic Ironclad?

That should really say all it needs to.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Reroll charges and give them an anti-fall back mechanic. Like "zealous follow-through: Whenever an enemy falls back and would leave a black templars squad outside 1" of any enemies, you may roll a dice. On a 4+, the Black templar squad may move up to 6" as if consolidating in the fight phase. If they engage any enemy unit in this way, the black templar unit fights first in the fight phase as if it charged, despite it being the opponent's turn."

See this? THIS is a creative solution to an obvious problem and it isn't broken.

Agreed. I like this suggestion much more. More fluffy, likely more useful.

Walrus - listen man, I get it, you're not happy with how your army is performing. I don't think the proper "fix" is to propose a doubling of melee damage to the majority of the force through their Chapter Tactic. That isn't what Chapter Tactics are supposed to be for. Your argument with regards "but Dreads have to get into combat to do anything" is kinda redundant and false. You could field an army of Dreads, some will make it into combat. They have guns that also do damage as they approach - something you've completely ignored. They are significantly better, point for point, than the Ork Deff Dread. Aren't there also Drop pods for Dreads so -actually- you don't HAVE to walk across the board?

You need to suggest a better, more balanced Chapter Tactic.

You've spent a lot of time going through all of the units that would benefit from this in a previous post in this topic. I would suggest you do the same again but this time go through the weaknesses of the units with regards the current meta and what you think needs to happen to make them better (without suggesting things that would encourage a player to take non-fluffy options). What is the issue with BT units? Are they not doing enough damage in melee? Is it to hordes? Armour? What are the problems exactly and what are more sensible ways to fix them?

Suggesting a buff "because everyone and their mother gets it" (Khorne Daemons get it as a loci around characters only if they take a pure Khorne detachment by the way) is not the way to get heard. Neither is comparing weird edge case units to your own and complaining because they don't match up. Do this properly and you'll get not only a better response, but also something much more useful to pass on to the powers that be.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, so you took a more expensive model with less survability (3+/5++ T6 is worse than 3+ T8), added an artifact, and used a strategem (they don't get native deep strike), and ended up pretty similar to a basic Ironclad?

That should really say all it needs to.

It's not less survivable since it's a Character, it's faster than an Ironclad even without the Deep Strike, and it provides two buffs to nearby Daemons.

Ironclads move 5" per turn while having no way to avoid being blasted off the board before even approaching close combat. Daemon Princes can blitz across the board while hiding in a squad of Daemons, buff said Daemons and then proceed to rip a Knight in half.

Why is the Ironclad Dreadnought overpowered? Look beyond the terrific potential damage and look at how likely you'd actually be to get to deliver it. It's like mounting a 16" gun on a kayak, it'd be lethal if it ever got to hit something.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, so you took a more expensive model with less survability (3+/5++ T6 is worse than 3+ T8), added an artifact, and used a strategem (they don't get native deep strike), and ended up pretty similar to a basic Ironclad?

That should really say all it needs to.

It's not less survivable since it's a Character, it's faster than an Ironclad even without the Deep Strike, and it provides two buffs to nearby Daemons.

Ironclads move 5" per turn while having no way to avoid being blasted off the board before even approaching close combat. Daemon Princes can blitz across the board while hiding in a squad of Daemons, buff said Daemons and then proceed to rip a Knight in half.

Why is the Ironclad Dreadnought overpowered? Look beyond the terrific potential damage and look at how likely you'd actually be to get to deliver it. It's like mounting a 16" gun on a kayak, it'd be lethal if it ever got to hit something.

T8 3+? Sure, one might get killed. But if you field, say, three? AT LEAST one is making it over there. Or, what if you're up against a melee army? They have no choice but to fight you in close combat.

For reference, I just fought Black Templar yesterday. He had Helbrecht, the Champ, and various other people. I won (which is why I'm fine buffing Black Templars) and while I did win pretty hard on objectives, we were both pretty low on models at the end of the game. If he had had double the attacks in close combat? He'd have destroyed me.

I would like to suggest another idea for Chapter Tactics:
Any infantry unit or dreadnought can reroll failed charge rolls. Also any model that carries a power sword, power axe or power maul gains +1 to its attacks characteristic.

What do you think guys? It's a sprinkling of extra close combat power that won't be too much for a chapter tactic when added to charge rerolls. I am also thinking of alternative ideas that add a bonus to chainswords instead, though I am not sure what it should be.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Reroll charges and give them an anti-fall back mechanic. Like "zealous follow-through: Whenever an enemy falls back and would leave a black templars squad outside 1" of any enemies, you may roll a dice. On a 4+, the Black templar squad may move up to 6" as if consolidating in the fight phase. If they engage any enemy unit in this way, the black templar unit fights first in the fight phase as if it charged, despite it being the opponent's turn."

See this? THIS is a creative solution to an obvious problem and it isn't broken.

Agreed. I like this suggestion much more. More fluffy, likely more useful.

If it's more useful then how is it not "ludicruously OP"?

I'll try it your way and explain my reasoning a bit more in-depth to see if we can find better alternatives. The main issue is that, without exception, all the melee units have bad-to-horrible damage output. Even Vanguard Veterans and Thunderhammer Terminators have pretty iffy damage output for their cost, as illustrated by the fact that you could literally double the amout of attacks our units get and STILL be at best on-par with Khorne Berzerkers. Once you start adding stuff like Genestealers attacking you from across the board or Bloodletter hordes supported by Skarbrand charging you from Deep Strike there's really no point to trying to play Black Templars; any other Chapter Tactic does the shooting gunline better and the melee options you have to work with are so bad that they'd struggle to be good at twice their current attacks. Literally every other melee-centric army can waltz over Black Templars as if they weren't there.

How do we solve it? We either break Templars out of the Vanilla Codex again, which I'd prefer, or we make the Chapter Tactics compensate for the fact that the faction is shoehorned into a book it doesn't belong in to fix the melee deficiency without breaking the other Chapters (Ultramarines with this would be beyond dumb, for instance). As a stop-gap, it's much easier to just use the Chapter Tactic than it is to make a whole new Codex.

Next, we look at what good melee units are like. They've got to have at least two of the trinity of speed, toughness, and oomph:
Speed means they need to be fast enough to get into combat quickly (think Genestealers or deep-striking Bloodletters).
Toughness means they have to be tanky enough to weather the storm while getting into combat (think Knights)
Oomph means they have to be strong enough on a per-model basis that they do damage even if they've been thinned out on the way (think Berzerkers).

Slaanesh demons is a good example of a bunch of melee units that fail in this regard; they have speed, but they're made of papier maché and have almost no oomph once they get into combat. Bloodletters are a good example of a unit that has two, speed and oomph, as they can charge out of Deep Strike (yes, I know it costs a Command Point, but that's what those are for) with 61 good attacks. Genestealers also have speed and oomph, making them another good example. Skarbrand is an example of a unit that has all three; he can Deep Strike (see previous paranthesis), he hits like a truck full of anvils, and he's a Greater Daemon and thus tanky. Guilliman is another example of a unit with all three as well, although he'd rather just buff his Razorbacks.

Black Templars currently have none of these. The melee units hit like wet noodles (except TH/SS Terminators), die like flies (including TH/SS Terminators), and only Vanguard Veterans (and Assault Marines but lol), Reivers, and Terminators have a decent way of getting into close combat from Deep Strike (not counting Drop Pods as decent because they aren't), and even then it's a 55-ish% chance of success if you're willing to use a Command Point, so hardly reliable. Only Vanguard Veterans, Reivers and Terminators are fast enough to actually get into combat reliably through speed (Deep Strike or jumping), and they don't have the oomph to back their point cost up once they get there, and they sure as heck aren't tanky enough. All the Dreadnoughts have oomph, but not enough of it, and not enough speed or toughness to get into combat reliably anyway.

How do we fix this? We add oomph. A lot of it. Black Templar fluff isn't about lightning attacks (that's Raven Guard or Blood Angels) or about outflanking the enemy and running them down (Raven Guard again, or White Scars), it's about stubbornly charging through Hell or high water, reaching the enemy lines and killing the everliving crap out of them. The current Chapter Tactic adds a little bit of speed, which helps, but it is irrelevant if the units cannot do damage once they get there. Thus, we add more attacks. A unit with more attacks will do damage even if half the squad is shot to pieces on the way in. An army with more attacks compensates for the lack of tankiness or speed through getting the same number of attacks in as an army with more speed but less attacks. An army with more attacks that reaches the enemy later than a faster one with fewer attacks compensates for its late arrival through a higher volume of attacks per round of combat.

The proposed ability to lock enemy units in combat on a 4+ would help, but only against armies that don't want to be in melee in the first place. Black Templars would still get absolutely massacred by any other melee-focussed army in the game. What do Bloodletters or Death Company care about not being able to retreat?

Actually that'd be a point, supposed we made Black Templars unable to retreat from CC as part of the Chapter Tactics? You'd be better at melee at the cost of having worse gunline elements to steer you towards a more melee-centric build, and there's precedence from the 4th edition Codex (Fearless in CC, had to charge if you took the one good Vow).

One other option would be to add more speed, akin to the old Righteous Zeal where you got to consolidate towards the enemy if they killed off your models. This still doesn't solve the problem of your melee units hitting like wet noodles once they get into combat, and doesn't give the strong but slow units a buff because they're too expensive to lose for Righteous Zeal.

The last option would be to buff toughness, but in that case why aren't other Space Marines just as tough as the Black Templars? It'd step on both the Death Guard and the Iron Hands' toes as well.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, so you took a more expensive model with less survability (3+/5++ T6 is worse than 3+ T8), added an artifact, and used a strategem (they don't get native deep strike), and ended up pretty similar to a basic Ironclad?

That should really say all it needs to.

It's not less survivable since it's a Character, it's faster than an Ironclad even without the Deep Strike, and it provides two buffs to nearby Daemons.

Ironclads move 5" per turn while having no way to avoid being blasted off the board before even approaching close combat. Daemon Princes can blitz across the board while hiding in a squad of Daemons, buff said Daemons and then proceed to rip a Knight in half.

Why is the Ironclad Dreadnought overpowered? Look beyond the terrific potential damage and look at how likely you'd actually be to get to deliver it. It's like mounting a 16" gun on a kayak, it'd be lethal if it ever got to hit something.

T8 3+? Sure, one might get killed. But if you field, say, three? AT LEAST one is making it over there. Or, what if you're up against a melee army? They have no choice but to fight you in close combat.

Then you don't fight it with monsters, you fight it with bog-standard infantry and drown it in wounds. It'd kill like 5 infantry models a turn, less if they had invulnerable saves of some kind. Even then a faster model has a better chance of getting a charge off and killing it before it can swing. Ork Boyz kill Ironclads through sheer number of attacks, Meganobz just cut it to pieces, the above-mentioned Skullreaver Prince would, well, Reave the Dreadnought's Skull, and Genestealers would swarm it before it could react.

As for comparing to "edge cases", those "edge cases" are the standard to which other melee units have to be compared; why would I take Mark of Khorne CSM with Chainswords when I could pay a little more and get more than 200% (!!) the melee power in Khorne Berzerkers if I wanted melee units? Why would I take a bunch of Gaunts when I could take Genestealers and rip people's faces off. We don't compare shooting units to Whirlwinds or to Fire Prisms, we compare them to Manticores and Dark Reapers. The same should hold for melee units.

2 Command Points to Deep Strike 30 Letters. And they'll usually fail their charge, even with an Instrument.

Skarbrand is NOT tanky. Greater Daemons die easy.

And you're basically saying "Black Templars can only do melee, therefore their melee should be on par with the the best melee units in the game". You do realize you have the ENTIRE Marine arsenal, right? That includes a lot of shooting.

 JNAProductions wrote:
2 Command Points to Deep Strike 30 Letters. And they'll usually fail their charge, even with an Instrument.

Skarbrand is NOT tanky. Greater Daemons die easy.

And you're basically saying "Black Templars can only do melee, therefore their melee should be on par with the the best melee units in the game". You do realize you have the ENTIRE Marine arsenal, right? That includes a lot of shooting.

Bloodletters actually have a ridiculously high chance to make a charge i believe it was somewhere in the range of 93% with the 3d6 +1inch charge range.

 Rydria wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
2 Command Points to Deep Strike 30 Letters. And they'll usually fail their charge, even with an Instrument.

Skarbrand is NOT tanky. Greater Daemons die easy.

And you're basically saying "Black Templars can only do melee, therefore their melee should be on par with the the best melee units in the game". You do realize you have the ENTIRE Marine arsenal, right? That includes a lot of shooting.

Bloodletters actually have a 93.8% chance to make the charge if you buff them appropriately due to the 3d6 +1 charge range with a reroll.

How do they get 3d6? I confess, I have not looked over my Daemons Codex as much as I should've, I just focused on the Nurgle bits.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
2 Command Points to Deep Strike 30 Letters. And they'll usually fail their charge, even with an Instrument.

Skarbrand is NOT tanky. Greater Daemons die easy.

And you're basically saying "Black Templars can only do melee, therefore their melee should be on par with the the best melee units in the game". You do realize you have the ENTIRE Marine arsenal, right? That includes a lot of shooting.

Bloodletters actually have a 93.8% chance to make the charge if you buff them appropriately due to the 3d6 +1 charge range with a reroll.

How do they get 3d6? I confess, I have not looked over my Daemons Codex as much as I should've, I just focused on the Nurgle bits.

By paying 1 command point to upgrade the icon into a banner of blood.

So that's 3 Command points to drop 235 points of Bloodletters 9" away and get a single 3d6+1" charge?

Seems fair to me.

Honestly I would change Black Templars in the following way:

The Great Crusade- Any BT unit who has not moved this turn may reroll 1's to hit with any bolt weapon. Any BT unit who took a casualty in the preceding turn may advance and then charge. Any BT unit that gets charged gains +1 attack during this turn of combat.



Along with their characters, ability to take neophytes (scouts) in their tac squads and be allowed to exchange their Boltgun for a chainsword for free I think they will be fine.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So that's 3 Command points to drop 235 points of Bloodletters 9" away and get a single 3d6+1" charge?

Seems fair to me.

It is fair. It's also far better than anything the Vanilla Codex can muster in terms of melee units. This, along with Berzerkers, Genestealers etc., is the standard you're having to match if you want to compete. No one competetively takes Deff Dreads or Bloodcrushers, we compare units to the good ones to see if they're worthwhile.

And yes, you have the entire shooting arsenal at your disposal. The thoroughly underwhelming shooting arsenal. Nids have shooting. CSM have mostly the same shooting support with the Stormraven being the most notable missing unit. Blood Angels have shooting. Orks are a bit shafted on that front and Khorne daemons have little, but everyone else does. The AssCan Razorback is worse now, Guilliman isn't a Black Templar and the rest of the shooting options are thoroughly mediocre, excepting again the Stormraven.

If you think Greater Daemons die easily (and I probably agree they do on second thought) you should see Ironclad Dreadnoughts. T8 doesn't help protect against anti-tank weapons, a 3+ save means you're vulnerable to being plinked to death by small-arms, and you can't even outrun the enemy to catch them because you have a 5" move. The one saving grace is that it's cheap.

Put it this way: when's the last time an army where the vast majority of melee units get S4 AP- attacks dominated the game because of their melee prowess? 3rd edition. There's an argument that Space Wolves during 5th could fit, but I'd argue that was mostly their shooting. In order for an army dependent on low-S bad-AP attacks to be viable in melee you HAVE to have a massive number of attacks, because each individual
attack is so weak. Orks, who aren't exactly in a good spot themselves at the moment, get a blistering about of S4 attacks on their models because S4 AP- is trash.

As it currently stands I can spend 130 points on 10 Crusaders and 180 points on Helbrecht to buff them and still have the unit get outfought by 160 points of Berzerkers. Without Helbrecht the Berzerkers have more than 300% (!) better damage output against MEQ and still over 200% better damage output against GEQ than their equivalent cost in Crusaders (160 points of Berzerkers vs. 156 points of Crusaders). That's without any Legion Tactics. A 20-man Crusader Squad that gets the charge on 30 Boyz loses more points in models than the Boyz do. The examples can go on and on.

Berzerkers, in turn, aren't dominating the game. They're good, but not overly so. Same with the Booodletter bomb; it's good, but not too good. Same with Genestealers. Same with Skarbrand. Same with Skullreaver princes. So how is it that Black Templars would break the game with units that would be on par with these non-broken units?

Because of the shooting backup? No, that cannot be the case; the shooting options are comparable to several other melee-centric armies. Because of other units being bad? No, we don't compare to units that are bad, we strive to match the good ones.

If we ignore Helbrecht and Ironclad Dreadnoughts as the two main problematic units (and I disagree about Ironclads, but for argument's sake), what units would break the game? Is it the aggregate effect of upping melee power across the entire army?

I run Nurgle Daemons. I have virtually no shooting unless I ally in CSM.

My basic unit has a 5" move (worse than a Marine), hits on a 4+ (worse than a Marine), S4 (same) with rerolls to wound (better), no shooting at all (worse), and a 5++/5+++ (which is worse against anything without AP, slightly better against AP-1, and a decent amount better against higher AP values). They're also Leadership 7, with virtually no morale mitigation available.

What buffs do they need to make them viable? Because Black Templars seem pretty much better than that.

In addition, Greater Daemons are way more expensive than Ironclads, for not all that much tougher. I'll agree Ironclads aren't made of steel or anything, but for their price, they're pretty tough. (And T8 3+ makes them just fine against small arms-wounding on 6, with a 3+ save, means you need an average of 27 3+ bolter shots to do a SINGLE WOUND to an Ironclad. Compare to a GUO, who takes only 10.125 3+ bolter shots to take a wound.)

And your basic unit costs? Are Plaguebearers still 8 PPM or did they change in the Codex?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And your basic unit costs? Are Plaguebearers still 8 PPM or did they change in the Codex?

They've been 7 PPM since the CSM Dex.

So, for being slower, less durable, only about the same offensively, and lacking shooting entirely whilst being more vulnerable to morale, they're still more than half the cost of a full-fledged Marine.

They're more durable against certain targets and you're not taking the -1 to hit aura into account. Plus, for 70 points you get 10 models compared to my 5 at 65, so your almost parity on an on-model basis translates to a much tougher unit in practice, while having comparable damage output and worse movement (although you've got that Deep Strike stratagem too, no?).

Compare this to Vanguard Veterans and Berzerkers who fulfil the same role, cost the same and have the same statline except the Berzerkers have S5 and Vanguard magically get half the number of attacks because reasons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They're more durable against certain targets and you're not taking the -1 to hit aura into account. Plus, for 70 points you get 10 models compared to my 5 at 65, so your almost parity on an on-model basis translates to a much tougher unit in practice, while having comparable damage output and worse movement (although you've got that Deep Strike stratagem too, no?).

Compare this to Vanguard Veterans and Berzerkers who fulfil the same role, cost the same and have the same statline except the Berzerkers have S5 and Vanguard magically get half the number of attacks because reasons.

The -1 to hit only applies in squad sizes of 20 or more-when you're INCREDIBLY vulnerable to morale.

And here's the thing-if you try playing Marines as a PURELY MELEE ARMY, yes, you're going to not do so hot. They have some good melee choices, but they aren't designed to be a pure melee force. Look at all the shooting you have. We don't think you should bring every single BT Melee unt (or even non-melee units, honestly) up to being great melee units.

If a melee unit isn't a great melee unit, why does it exist?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If a melee unit isn't a great melee unit, why does it exist?

To not be a melee unit? Crsuaders and Neophytes are not a melee unit-they are a troop, and a jack of all trades at that. (They can be kitted out to be BETTER at melee, but that doesn't mean they're a dedicated melee option.)

Vanguard Veterans are pretty good as-is. Assault Marines need a buff, but that should be a buff to THAT UNIT, not one specific chapter tactic.

Vanguard Veterans aren't "pretty good". Khorne Berzerkers are "pretty good". Genestealers are "pretty good". Bloodletters are "pretty good". What's even the point in having the option to take Chainswords if the unit is going to be used as a shooting unit anyway because it's the only redeeming feature it has? They don't even outfight Ork Boyz when they get the charge and out-cost the Orks.

And if I wanted to play shooty Marines, why would I not just play Raven Guard or Ultramarines, or any of the Chapter Tactics that are actually meant to be shooty. You say that BT aren't meant to be played as a purely melee army, but if that is the case then why are Khorne Berserkers and Bloodletters so much better than my melee units? Neither Chaos Space Marines nor Chaos Daemons lack shooting prowess, so why is it that they get a pass at having melee on the level we're discussing? Why can Tyranids get away with having Genestealers while also having Carnifexes that rival my best shooting units?

EDIT:

How's this for a compromise idea? How about giving Black Templars a version of the old Righteous Zeal rule back where you get to advance if your unit takes losses (once per phase or once per turn, we can discuss the specifics), and then let a unit that loses models to shooting get +2 attacks in the next Fight! phase? It'd stop Dreadnoughts and Characters getting out of hand, it'd not be "on" all the time and it'd mean you could counterplay it through focussing down one unit at a time rather than spreading your fire. Toss out the rerolls to charge distance if it gets too strong, although most melee armies get ways to reroll charges one way or another.

Did you just... Did you just say Chaos Daemons DON'T lack shooting prowess?

I run Nurgle daemons. I have the following units with guns:

Great Unclean Ones-Short range. Basically a pistol.
Daemon Princes-Warp Bolter. Basically an AP-1, D2 bolter.
Plague Drones-They have Assault 2 12" bolters, basically.
Soul Grinders-They actually have a decent amount of shooting, but are generally considered overcosted.

I have virtually no shooting.

And again, I have not said and I don't think anyone else have said that BT don't deserve a BUFF. It's just that your suggestion is way too strong.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you just... Did you just say Chaos Daemons DON'T lack shooting prowess?

I run Nurgle daemons. I have the following units with guns:

Great Unclean Ones-Short range. Basically a pistol.
Daemon Princes-Warp Bolter. Basically an AP-1, D2 bolter.
Plague Drones-They have Assault 2 12" bolters, basically.
Soul Grinders-They actually have a decent amount of shooting, but are generally considered overcosted.

I have virtually no shooting.

And again, I have not said and I don't think anyone else have said that BT don't deserve a BUFF. It's just that your suggestion is way too strong.

Pretty sure there's more than just Nurgle in the book. Or does trying to play an army as a purely melee army being a bad idea only apply to Marines?

Pretty sure there's more than Black Templars in the Marines Dex too.

Jumping in in the middle of the discussion but - what about reintroduction of old furious charge? I think it's a more elegant, non-game breaking (althought +1A isn't game breaking either, but) solution to this notion of "zealous combatants" theme.

So, Black Templars' reroll failed charge rolls. In addition, Black Templar units with this tactic adds +1 to Strength on the turn they charged.

This way, when BT's charge, they can still threaten T8's with +5 to wound and T4's at +3 to wounds on the charge. Since SM doesn't have any +S aura abilities, I think it could blend in pretty well while providing BT's a unique perk.

 skchsan wrote:
Jumping in in the middle of the discussion but - what about reintroduction of old furious charge? I think it's a more elegant, non-game breaking (althought +1A isn't game breaking either, but) solution to this notion of "zealous combatants" theme.

So, Black Templars' reroll failed charge rolls. In addition, Black Templar units with this tactic adds +1 to Strength on the turn they charged.

This way, when BT's charge, they can still threaten T8's with +5 to wound and T4's at +3 to wounds on the charge. Since SM doesn't have any +S aura abilities, I think it could blend in pretty well while providing BT's a unique perks.

Actually, Helbrecht gives +1 S to nearby BTs.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Jumping in in the middle of the discussion but - what about reintroduction of old furious charge? I think it's a more elegant, non-game breaking (althought +1A isn't game breaking either, but) solution to this notion of "zealous combatants" theme.

So, Black Templars' reroll failed charge rolls. In addition, Black Templar units with this tactic adds +1 to Strength on the turn they charged.

This way, when BT's charge, they can still threaten T8's with +5 to wound and T4's at +3 to wounds on the charge. Since SM doesn't have any +S aura abilities, I think it could blend in pretty well while providing BT's a unique perks.

Actually, Helbrecht gives +1 S to nearby BTs.

Baah

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pretty sure there's more than Black Templars in the Marines Dex too.

Why does that matter. The existence of other Daemon units matters because you justified the power of the melee units in Codex: Daemon with the logic that they didn't have good shooting units. The existence of such shooting units nullifies that argument. I haven't made such an argument, so your statement doesn't actually, as far as I can see, mean anything.

My suggestion above seems to have beeen missed due to me editing it in, so I'll repost it.

How's this for a compromise idea? How about giving Black Templars a version of the old Righteous Zeal rule back where you get to advance if your unit takes losses (once per phase or once per turn, we can discuss the specifics), and then let a unit that loses models to shooting get +2 attacks in the next Fight! phase? It'd stop Dreadnoughts and Characters getting out of hand, it'd not be "on" all the time and it'd mean you could counterplay it through focussing down one unit at a time rather than spreading your fire. Toss out the rerolls to charge distance if it gets too strong, although most melee armies get ways to reroll charges one way or another.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pretty sure there's more than Black Templars in the Marines Dex too.

Why does that matter. The existence of other Daemon units matters because you justified the power of the melee units in Codex: Daemon with the logic that they didn't have good shooting units. The existence of such shooting units nullifies that argument. I haven't made such an argument, so your statement doesn't actually, as far as I can see, mean anything.

My suggestion above seems to have beeen missed due to me editing it in, so I'll repost it.

How's this for a compromise idea? How about giving Black Templars a version of the old Righteous Zeal rule back where you get to advance if your unit takes losses (once per phase or once per turn, we can discuss the specifics), and then let a unit that loses models to shooting get +2 attacks in the next Fight! phase? It'd stop Dreadnoughts and Characters getting out of hand, it'd not be "on" all the time and it'd mean you could counterplay it through focussing down one unit at a time rather than spreading your fire. Toss out the rerolls to charge distance if it gets too strong, although most melee armies get ways to reroll charges one way or another.

Too complicated for a CT, don't you think?

 skchsan wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pretty sure there's more than Black Templars in the Marines Dex too.

Why does that matter. The existence of other Daemon units matters because you justified the power of the melee units in Codex: Daemon with the logic that they didn't have good shooting units. The existence of such shooting units nullifies that argument. I haven't made such an argument, so your statement doesn't actually, as far as I can see, mean anything.

My suggestion above seems to have beeen missed due to me editing it in, so I'll repost it.

How's this for a compromise idea? How about giving Black Templars a version of the old Righteous Zeal rule back where you get to advance if your unit takes losses (once per phase or once per turn, we can discuss the specifics), and then let a unit that loses models to shooting get +2 attacks in the next Fight! phase? It'd stop Dreadnoughts and Characters getting out of hand, it'd not be "on" all the time and it'd mean you could counterplay it through focussing down one unit at a time rather than spreading your fire. Toss out the rerolls to charge distance if it gets too strong, although most melee armies get ways to reroll charges one way or another.

Too complicated for a CT, don't you think?

We could handle similar complexity in 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th edition without problem.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you just... Did you just say Chaos Daemons DON'T lack shooting prowess?

I run Nurgle daemons. I have the following units with guns:

Great Unclean Ones-Short range. Basically a pistol.
Daemon Princes-Warp Bolter. Basically an AP-1, D2 bolter.
Plague Drones-They have Assault 2 12" bolters, basically.
Soul Grinders-They actually have a decent amount of shooting, but are generally considered overcosted.

I have virtually no shooting.

And again, I have not said and I don't think anyone else have said that BT don't deserve a BUFF. It's just that your suggestion is way too strong.

Pretty sure there's more than just Nurgle in the book. Or does trying to play an army as a purely melee army being a bad idea only apply to Marines?

I disagree with how Walrus is approaching fixing Black Templars but they are absolutely correct on this post.

Give them "units can't disengage" on top of rerolling charges. Done.

Unconditionally locking people in combat would never be accepted. It'd work as a strong-enough Chapter Tactic, but people would be angry.

So? Let them be angry. IG make me angry.

Martel732 wrote:
Give them "units can't disengage" on top of rerolling charges. Done.

Maybe have it go off on a 4+. Otherwise it would be incredibly potent. Not broken, but most other Chapters would need a boost or two to catch up. That might bring Non-UM Space Marines to a level closer to UM power level. Not remotely on IG level though.

Salamanders, Iron Hands and Ultramarines certainly wouldn't need boosts, and White Scars need help regardless. That leaves Imperial Fists, who arguably also need help anyway.

Honestly the whole codex needs help. Even the best Chapter Tactic, Ultramarines, falls flat unless you throw Rowboat in every list. Couple that with mostly bland Strategems compared to the Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

First time I've even been mildly jealous of those armies. Most people wanted them in the vanilla codex to help them out on top of them not needing their own Codex for the most part. Now they're stronger because of it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Salamanders, Iron Hands and Ultramarines certainly wouldn't need boosts, and White Scars need help regardless. That leaves Imperial Fists, who arguably also need help anyway.

Iron Hands aren't in a great place.

Ultramarines without Guilliman are underwhelming, but it's okay. Raven Guard and Sallies are fine.

White Scars need more of a speed/assault buff - by and large, they're similar to Ultras (minus Guilliman). The Fists trait is worthless.

Fists easily have the worst trait in the book - even worse than the Templars one (which, whilst underwhelming, isn't THAT bad - it certainly makes DS assaults more likely to happen).

Realistically, Codex Space Marines without Guilliman is poor in general. Not the worst, but not in a great place beyond spamming the few things that actually work (which aren't even affected by CT anyway).

Honestly Ignoring Cover isn't so bad, but it's kinda lame they don't get a secondary bonus that actually matters.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Give them "units can't disengage" on top of rerolling charges. Done.

Maybe have it go off on a 4+. Otherwise it would be incredibly potent. Not broken, but most other Chapters would need a boost or two to catch up. That might bring Non-UM Space Marines to a level closer to UM power level. Not remotely on IG level though.

No. No rolls. Screw gunlines. They need a counter.

Regarding Iron Hands, I think a cool secondary mechanic with the 6+++ would be ignoring penalties with their heavy weapons from moving.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Salamanders, Iron Hands and Ultramarines certainly wouldn't need boosts, and White Scars need help regardless. That leaves Imperial Fists, who arguably also need help anyway.

Ignore cover comes up enough that that part is good.

Its the second part that is so flippin situational that makes it garbage.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly Ignoring Cover isn't so bad, but it's kinda lame they don't get a secondary bonus that actually matters.

It's a bit underwhelming for me purely because once your opponent knows you're playing IF, they won't even restrict themselves on cover beyond LOS. Normally, cover would limit your movement or positioning, but when it has no actual effect, they just deploy out of it anyway.

If it was something like +1 to wound in cover, that would be good, perhaps, maybe too good.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly Ignoring Cover isn't so bad, but it's kinda lame they don't get a secondary bonus that actually matters.

It's a bit underwhelming for me purely because once your opponent knows you're playing IF, they won't even restrict themselves on cover beyond LOS. Normally, cover would limit your movement or positioning, but when it has no actual effect, they just deploy out of it anyway.

If it was something like +1 to wound in cover, that would be good, perhaps, maybe too good.

+1 to wound in cover doesnt make that much sense though. its not like shooting some one behind plywood suddenly makes the bullet harder... or something.

i think i would of rather preferred bolter drill to be the standard CT with ignore cover for "urban fighting" to be a strat.

I had a suggestion earlier in the thread but I think it got overlooked. Do you guys mind me reposting it?

Marksman224 wrote:
I would like to suggest another idea for Chapter Tactics:
Any infantry unit or dreadnought can reroll failed charge rolls. Also any model that carries a power sword, power axe or power maul gains +1 to its attacks characteristic.

What do you think guys? It's a sprinkling of extra close combat power that won't be too much for a chapter tactic when added to charge rerolls. I am also thinking of alternative ideas that add a bonus to chainswords instead, though I am not sure what it should be.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you just... Did you just say Chaos Daemons DON'T lack shooting prowess?

I run Nurgle daemons. I have the following units with guns:

Great Unclean Ones-Short range. Basically a pistol.
Daemon Princes-Warp Bolter. Basically an AP-1, D2 bolter.
Plague Drones-They have Assault 2 12" bolters, basically.
Soul Grinders-They actually have a decent amount of shooting, but are generally considered overcosted.

I have virtually no shooting.

And again, I have not said and I don't think anyone else have said that BT don't deserve a BUFF. It's just that your suggestion is way too strong.

Pretty sure there's more than just Nurgle in the book. Or does trying to play an army as a purely melee army being a bad idea only apply to Marines?

I disagree with how Walrus is approaching fixing Black Templars but they are absolutely correct on this post.

I want to play Nurgle. Walrus wants to play BT. I don't see much difference in that.

It's sort of like saying "I play Grey Knights, and am struggling with long-range anti-vehicle". A good answer is "Ally in guardsmen", but then that's not GK.

Marksman224 wrote:
I had a suggestion earlier in the thread but I think it got overlooked. Do you guys mind me reposting it?

Marksman224 wrote:
I would like to suggest another idea for Chapter Tactics:
Any infantry unit or dreadnought can reroll failed charge rolls. Also any model that carries a power sword, power axe or power maul gains +1 to its attacks characteristic.

What do you think guys? It's a sprinkling of extra close combat power that won't be too much for a chapter tactic when added to charge rerolls. I am also thinking of alternative ideas that add a bonus to chainswords instead, though I am not sure what it should be.

It's a nice idea and makes Vanguard cooler. However, what if I buy two Power Weapons? Do you get a bonus for using two fists?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Marksman224 wrote:
I had a suggestion earlier in the thread but I think it got overlooked. Do you guys mind me reposting it?

Marksman224 wrote:
I would like to suggest another idea for Chapter Tactics:
Any infantry unit or dreadnought can reroll failed charge rolls. Also any model that carries a power sword, power axe or power maul gains +1 to its attacks characteristic.

What do you think guys? It's a sprinkling of extra close combat power that won't be too much for a chapter tactic when added to charge rerolls. I am also thinking of alternative ideas that add a bonus to chainswords instead, though I am not sure what it should be.

It's a nice idea and makes Vanguard cooler. However, what if I buy two Power Weapons? Do you get a bonus for using two fists?

You most certainly must should due to Rule of Cool.

As I have written it it wouldn't give a bonus for two close combat weapons. I gues it could be made clearer. I didn't include powerfists at all because I thought it might be too much, and it wouldn't apply to unique weapons either.

I'd also like to point out that the assertion that Black Templars isn't supposed to be a melee army is crazy. The last three Codices have pushed melee units (to a varying degree of success). Our chapter tactic buffs melee (if poorly). We have five special units of which four are geared for close combat and the fifth is Cenobyte Servitors that are meant to buff units for CC but technically works against shooting. Just because all of these that aren't Helbrecht are of questionable value at best doesn't mean BT weren't designed to be a melee army; it just means GW is awful at making rules.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd also like to point out that the assertion that Black Templars isn't supposed to be a melee army is crazy. The last three Codices have pushed melee units (to a varying degree of success). Our chapter tactic buffs melee (if poorly). We have five special units of which four are geared for close combat and the fifth is Cenobyte Servitors that are meant to buff units for CC but technically works against shooting. Just because all of these that aren't Helbrecht are of questionable value at best doesn't mean BT weren't designed to be a melee army; it just means GW is awful at making rules.

The problem with balancing marines, or any imperial army really, is that they can easily ally with other forces. They aren't locked to their codex. You can take a detachment of BT along with another of UM and another IG detachment, if you wish. When considering the most competitive builds GW has made a mess for themselves really because imperial players are granted so much flexibility and this is incredible difficult to balance properly.

Now you can't have the strongest melee units in the game, along with (arguably) the strongest gun line in the game and that to be balanced. The melee units you cite; daemons, Orks, Genestealers etc have no real shooting to speak of. This isn't true of BT units that have BS 3 or 2+ across the board. You're going to pay for that characteristic so you are nerfing yourself if you don't use it. The same can be said of ork Lootas that traditionally are overpriced because you pay for an Orks' close combat potential on a unit that won't use it. If I started a thread that said Orks needed much better shooting (because all other armies have better shooting) and proposed no changes to compensate I don't think you'd find it balanced. That's what you keep doing here.

You're also discussing this like BT are a melee only force, which isn't true from what I've read of the fluff. They're melee centric but they use ranged weapons just like any other marine. They are flexible and use what they need to use to kill the enemy (from my understanding).

Im not saying you're completely wrong by the way. I think BT lack punch in melee and a way to deal with psykers effectively. I think a change in auras for characters and an inherent defence against psychic abilities would be more beneficial, balanced and interesting.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


You're also discussing this like BT are a melee only force, which isn't true from what I've read of the fluff. They're melee centric but they use ranged weapons just like any other marine. They are flexible and use what they need to use to kill the enemy (from my understanding).

There are no melee only forces in the fluff. Even Khorne's followers have copious amounts of guns. Plus, even in-game, Chaos Demons have some spectacular shooting options, Tyranids have good shooting options. Orks don't, which has been a problem for the Codex since 5th edition at least.

Marines also don't have access to the strongest gunline in the game because the strongest gunline in the game is made worse by including Marines, meaning it's no longer the strongest by definition.

Just to illustrate how ridiculously bad the melee units are, 10 double-Chainsword Vanguard Veterans that get the charge on 30 Ork Boyz lose. This is the supposedly "good" melee unit. 5 Lightning Claw Terminators, costing more than the 30 Boyz, lose even while charging. There is not a single unit in the Space Marine Codex that outfights an equivalent cost in Boyz when the Boyz get charged. For reference, 10 World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers, equivalent in points assuming Chainaxes and an Icon, kill the 30 Boyz before the Boyz even swing. This from a Codex with pretty decent shooting options.

Even then, assuming each option is balanced with others, why can't you have the best shooting units and the best melee units in the same Codex? It becomes problematic if you can have both at the same time in one list, but if you take more melee units you're taking less shooting, and vice versa. I'll illustrate with an example:

Let's say we have three armies: The Imperial Boots, the Facemelters, and the Space Pirates. The Facemelters have strong shooting units and weak melee units, the Space Pirates have strong melee units and weak shooting units, and the Imperial Boots have both strong melee units and strong shooting units.

In a Facemelters vs. Space Pirates matchup it becomes a shooting vs. melee contest, where the Facemelters try to shoot enough of the Space Pirates to pieces before their superior melee units can get to grips with them. A straightforward shooting vs. melee matchup.

In a Facemelters vs. Imperial Boots matchup it becomes a shooting vs. melee contest, where the Facemelters try to shoot enough of the Imperial Boots to pieces before their superior melee units can get to grips with them. If this sentence looks almost identical to the above it's because it is. It doesn't matter that the Imperial boots have as good shooting and better melee as long as they don't have all of it at once.

In a Space Pirates vs. Imperial Boots matchup it becomes a shooting vs. melee contest, where the Imperial Boots try to shoot enough of the Space Pirates to pieces before their superior melee units can get to grips with them. Are you seeing the trend yet?

There's also the possibility that the Imperial Boots could go full shooting or full melee, in which case the melee vs. melee matchup is a fair one and the shooting vs. shooting matchup also is balanced, while the shooting vs. melee matchup becomes the same as mentioned above.

This would of course mean that Imperial Boots would be more flexible at an army construction level than Space Pirates or Facemelters, but balance-wise it'd work perfectly fine. As long as all three armies played in an interesting and unique manner it'd hardly be unfair.

The only thing you're accomplishing through refusing to give Space Marines competent melee units is that the melee units in the book aren't seen in competetive play. As long as you don't have a unit that can simultaneously match the best shooting units in the game and fight the best melee units (like Wraithknights in 7th or Riptides in 6th) the book isn't broken, because when you increase your list's melee power you're going to be losing out in shooting to someone that specializes in shooting and vice versa.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Give them "units can't disengage" on top of rerolling charges. Done.

Maybe have it go off on a 4+. Otherwise it would be incredibly potent. Not broken, but most other Chapters would need a boost or two to catch up. That might bring Non-UM Space Marines to a level closer to UM power level. Not remotely on IG level though.

No. No rolls. Screw gunlines. They need a counter.

Eh, even with it being automatic, it still wouldn't be broken because you have to charge into the gunline to even get it to work. I could see that being pretty decent for Black Templars.

My way of fixing Imperial Fists is to give them Grim Resolve instead of Siege Masters. It is much more fitting. The other thing I came up with if they HAD to be different was to have them Ignore ANY penalties to shooting if they remain stationary. Zoanthrope? No problem. Alaitoc? Oh, you have a Flyer? Now you don't!

That would be in addition to Ignore Cover. Basically, Imperial Fists would be the steadiest shooters in the Galaxy.

Listen man, if you're going to reply to a tiny sliver of my point and nothing else I can't be bothered to have this discussion with you. You have clearly made up your mind and unless you get what you want there is no decent solution as far as you're concerned.

why can't you have the best shooting units and the best melee units in the same Codex? It becomes problematic if you can have both at the same time in one list, but if you take more melee units you're taking less shooting, and vice versa. I'll illustrate with an example:

This example is totally bogus. Totally. If one force can take BOTH the most points efficient melee unit in the game AND the most points efficient shooty unit in the game, all things equal, there is massive imbalance and that force will always win. If your shooting units (that are the most efficient in the game) out shoot any other shooting unit and your melee units out melee anything else in the game, how on earth is that balanced? It just means you can take any mix of melee to shooting units and will always win (all things equal). How are you not getting this?

I'm really struggling with your argument here; "30 [Slugga] Boyz will always beat Vanguard Vets even if they charge!!!!111one". Y'know what the solution is then? Don't charge the fething Boyz! Shoot them. Engage with other units and use your Vanguards for a target that maybe they are better suited to kill? Focus fire the Boyz until they're less than 20 models so now you beat them in combat. You are complaining that an extremely efficient melee specialist unit (in an index that has nothing else to offer in terms of efficiency, has virtually no viable shooting options and is extremely one dimensional) is beating an expensive, more general unit, in a vacuum, not considering any tactics, terrain etc? Yea, it'll do that.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
[spoiler]
Listen man, if you're going to reply to a tiny sliver of my point and nothing else I can't be bothered to have this discussion with you. You have clearly made up your mind and unless you get what you want there is no decent solution as far as you're concerned.

What part of the quoted post did I not adress? Also, considering I've put several suggestions forward (without replies at times, funnily enough) and outright said other people's suggestions would work well enough your last sentence is demonstrably not true.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

why can't you have the best shooting units and the best melee units in the same Codex? It becomes problematic if you can have both at the same time in one list, but if you take more melee units you're taking less shooting, and vice versa. I'll illustrate with an example:

This example is totally bogus. Totally. If one force can take BOTH the most points efficient melee unit in the game AND the most points efficient shooty unit in the game, all things equal, there is massive imbalance and that force will always win. If your shooting units (that are the most efficient in the game) out shoot any other shooting unit and your melee units out melee anything else in the game, how on earth is that balanced? It just means you can take any mix of melee to shooting units and will always win (all things equal). How are you not getting this?

You do what you yourself pointed out you should do: you shoot the melee units with your shooting units that are better at shooting than the melee units are and you melee the shooting units with your melee unit that are better at melee than they are. It only gets broken if the same unit dominates in both melee and shooting at the same time leaving the army with no weakness to exploit.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I'm really struggling with your argument here; "30 [Slugga] Boyz will always beat Vanguard Vets even if they charge!!!!111one". Y'know what the solution is then? Don't charge the fething Boyz! Shoot them. Engage with other units and use your Vanguards for a target that maybe they are better suited to kill? Focus fire the Boyz until they're less than 20 models so now you beat them in combat. You are complaining that an extremely efficient melee specialist unit (in an index that has nothing else to offer in terms of efficiency, has virtually no viable shooting options and is extremely one dimensional) is beating an expensive, more general unit, in a vacuum, not considering any tactics, terrain etc? Yea, it'll do that.

How are double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans (or Vanguard Veterans in general) "more general" than Boyz? One is a melee Troops unit, one's supposed to be an elite CC choice. I'm using Boyz as an example because Orks AREN'T the most powerful melee faction at the moment, and because they're the sort of target high-volume low-S melee attacks is supposed to be good against.

"Just shoot them and then finish them off in melee" inevitably leads to the conclusion that you should just shoot them and not even bother getting close, because the melee options are bad. Which is the entire point; there's really no point in taking the melee units because the shooting ones are better. When your melee units are dead weight against armies with any sort of competent melee units, why would you take them when your shooting units would just be better against both shooting and melee units anyway?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You do what you yourself pointed out you should do: you shoot the melee units with your shooting units that are better at shooting than the melee units are and you melee the shooting units with your melee unit that are better at melee than they are. It only gets broken if the same unit dominates in both melee and shooting at the same time leaving the army with no weakness to exploit.

That is what you should do; however your opponent will do exactly the same as it is the optimum strategy, and since his shooting is better than yours and his melee is better than yours he will do it better.

Marksman224 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You do what you yourself pointed out you should do: you shoot the melee units with your shooting units that are better at shooting than the melee units are and you melee the shooting units with your melee unit that are better at melee than they are. It only gets broken if the same unit dominates in both melee and shooting at the same time leaving the army with no weakness to exploit.

That is what you should do; however your opponent will do exactly the same as it is the optimum strategy, and since his shooting is better than yours and his melee is better than yours he will do it better.

But it he's taking predominantly melee units his shooting won't be better than yours because he's spending on melee units, and if he takes predominantly shooting units his melee won't be better, since he's spending predominantly om shooting units, and if he takes a bit of both you can still leverage the fact that he's not the strongest in any one field.