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2018/01/05 13:49:49
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics
It really does suck that there's not really a good way to reflect the CC zeal templars have with the current SM codex. I could see fighting in CC twice being a 2CP stratagem for the BT, called "Righteous Zeal".
Maybe to emphasize their focus on CC and swordsmanship after Sigismund, their CT could include that they get to swing their attacks in combat even after the model has been killed before removing them from the game. Add +1 attack on the charge on top of that and they have more of a CC emphasis in the game, and makes taking care of black tides ideally through shooting rather than in CC, where they can still tear through enemy units even in death.
I am getting the impression that +1 attack if charging might be the best choice and the biggest bonus that one could permit, especially combined with charge re-rolls. I think anything more than that would just be way too powerful for a chapter tactics rule. I also like the idea suggested for a default psychic save of 6+ though there might be argument for 5+ like the templars used to have. A 6+ save is very low for just one save per power or unit.
In any case Chapter Tactics can only consist of one or two simple, minor buffs. If there were a number of different rules that the Black Templars came with, like some are suggesting, then there would have to be something taken away from them elsewhere to make it fair.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/05 23:42:56
2018/01/05 23:57:04
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics
No, the suggested OP Chapter Tactic is far too strong.
Since everyone and their mother has access to reroll shooting and the ability for explosive shooting can maybe Orks have their BS increased to 3+ because currently dakkaddakkadakka is a complete waste?
If you truly believe you need a buff I think a morale bonus (can only lose d3 or 1 model to morale) would be more fitting and less wish listing, personally.
2018/01/06 14:45:47
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics
Since my original suggestion is apparently "far too strong" and "hilariously OP", let's take a look at a unit-by-unit basis to see where the problem would be then, shall we? Warning: wall of text incoming. EDIT: Is there any way to make spoiler tags inside spoiler tags work?
--HQ--
High Marshal Helbrecht
Spoiler:
Helbrecht would go from effectively base 4 attacks to base 8, with (effectively) D6 extra attacks on the charge. He could thus reach 14 attacks on the charge. Khârn the Betrayer also reaches 14 attacks on the charge; Helbrecht strikes at S6 AP-3 D3 wounds, whereas Khârn strikes at S6 AP-4 D3 wounds, but Helbrecht gets rerolls to hit while Khârn hits friendlies on a 1. Helbrecht also serves as a force multiplier, has a better shooting weapon and has a better save. Helbrecht would thus pretty obviously be better than Khârn, although from a competetive standpoint it's worth pointing out that Khârn isn't exactly a majorly powerful choice in the first place.
The Emperor's Champion
Spoiler:
The Emperor's Champion would go from effectively 4 attacks base to 8 attacks base. The most straight-forward comparison would be to a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut with the Axe of Blind Fury; the Emperor's Champion gets 8 S6 AP-3 D3 wound attacks, while the Lord gets 4 S8 AP-3 D3 wound attacks and the three attacks from the Juggernaut (S9 and 5 attacks on the charge, assuming World Eaters). The Emperor's Champion has the edge in number of attacks, but the Lord hits with a better strength (especially on the charge). The Emperor's Champion has a better save, but the Lord has better toughness and 50% more wounds, as well as M8 instead of M6. The Lord is 10 points cheaper, but he's also using up an artifact slot (although I don't know what other artifact you'd use as Khorne other than possibly the reroll charge one, but still). The two would compare favourably to one another, with the Emperor's Champion having the better volume of attacks while the Lord would be better against high-toughness targets while being more mobile. Worth noting is that, like Khârn, Juggerlords aren't exactly demolishing the meta in the first place; being on-par or even slightly better than such a unit is hardly evidence of being "hilariously OP".
Chaplain Grimaldus
Spoiler:
Grimaldus would get 6 Crozius attacks instead of 3. Whoop dee doo. He'd be better, sure, but if you bring him you don't take Grimaldus because of his damage output in CC anyway. It'd be a buff, sure, but hardly one that makes Grimaldus broken beyond belief. Both Helbrecht and the Emperor's Champion would be more interesting beatsticks, and Helbrecht would still be better than Grimaldus just like he is now.
Cenobyte Servitors
Spoiler:
Included for completeness' sake, if you want to claim that them getting twice the number of S3 attacks breaks the game then feel free to do so.
Captain in Terminator Armour
Spoiler:
Assuming you're running him with a Thunder Hammer, he'd get 8 S8 AP-3 3 wounds attacks, hitting on 3s with rerolls of 1s. It'd be a powerful beatstick with some buff utility, but he'd also be limited to a 5" move unless you're Deep Striking him in, at which point his aura becomes less valuable since you're not buffing most of your army. You could obviously upgrade him to a Chapter Master, but at that point you'd just take Helbrecht instead to save 3 CPs. Again comparing to the Juggernaut Lord you'd have comparable toughness and better hitting power, but lower mobility.
Captain in Cataphractii Armour
Spoiler:
See above; you'd be slower still but tougher. If the Terminator Captain took a Storm Shield you're not even tougher, just slower.
Captain
Spoiler:
See above; you'd be faster but less durable; you could take a Jump Pack for great mobility, but you'd still be comparable to a Juggerlod, losing out on Toughness and a wound in return for mobility and a heavier punch.
Captain on Bike
Spoiler:
See above; you're now faster than the Juggernaut Lord while being as tough, with a better punch. A bit unfair to the Juggernaut Lord, but if we're never allowed to be better than another unit then what's the point?
Primaris Captain
Spoiler:
10 attacks with a cruddy melee weapon. You wouldn't take this guy to be a beatstick, you'd take him to bring the buff aura and the better T than a normal Captain.
Captain in Gravis Armour
Spoiler:
I hadn't realized how many different entries for Captains there are in the book. Still, comparable to a Terminator Captain except you get worse melee weapons, so won't be as affected by gaining more attacks.
Librarian
Spoiler:
SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE
Primaris Librarian
Spoiler:
ABHOR THE WITCH; DESTROY THE WITCH
Librarian in Terminator Armour
Spoiler:
BURN THE WITCH
Chaplain in Terminator Armour
Spoiler:
Same as Grimaldus, goes from 3 to 6 Crozius swings. Essentially remains the same in relation to Grimaldus as now; cheaper, but with a less potent array of buffs.
Chaplain
Spoiler:
See above.
Chaplain on Bike
Spoiler:
Same as the other Chaplains, except faster and tougher.
Primaris Chaplain
Spoiler:
See above.
Techmarine
Spoiler:
Woud become surprisingly potent; he'd get an additional swing out of his Servo arm(s) and get to use the rest for his melee weapon. Still a foot HQ with very little utility beyond punching people's faces in and being cheap. Repairing vehicles is a gimmick; sure, it's nice, but you don't take an HQ just to heal a vehicle.
Techmarine on Bike
Spoiler:
See above, except vroomier and tankier.
Lieutenants
Spoiler:
See the entry on Captains, except weaker in melee. If you wanted a beatstick you'd take the Captain. These guys could pack a wallop, but can't compare to things like claw Demon Princes, Juggerlords or the like.
Primaris Lieutenants
Spoiler:
Can't even get a good melee weapon. Nope.
--Troops--
Tactical Squad
Spoiler:
Why are you taking these? You're playing Black Templars; go grab a Crusader Squad, you scrub! (I know, I know, Combat Squads exist, but come on...)
Intercessor Squad
Spoiler:
Would fight as well as full-chainsword Vanguard Veterans currently do, while being tankier and having an actual shooting attack beyond grenades. Would become markedly more powerful, but still wouldn't exactly be brokenly powerful in CC; 5 of these would have the melee power of 5 Ork Boyz, assuming the Boyz get their 20+ horde bonus. Intercessors would undoubtedly be useful, but S4 AP0 attacks don't exactly put the fear of the Emperor into people, and you'd still not get any special weapons on them.
Scout Squad
Spoiler:
With close-combat weapons they'd go to 4 attacks a turn. You'd essentially have an 'Ard Boy for more than twice the cost of an Ork Boy, except you get to infiltrate and better BS for your S4 AP- pistol. Again, they'd be OK but hardly game-breaking.
Crusader Squad
Spoiler:
Like the above Scouts, assuming you take a Chainsword you'd get 4 attacks a turn. You'd still only have half the attacks of Khorne Berzerkers (with lower Strength to boot) though, matching the attack numbers of a squad of Ork Boyz. There's also the issue of getting to the enemy in the first place; one way or another you're gonna have to live through the shooting of the enemy unless you luck out and make the charge from a Drop Pod. Even then, a unit with roughly (you do get two power weapons to their one Klaw) the offensive power of Ork Boyz is hardly overpowered or broken; Boyz aren't exactly demolishing AM gunlines or Dark Reaper spamming Eldar.
--Elites--
Spoiler:
Primaris Ancient
[spoiler]8 S4 AP0 attacks. Yawn. Nothing to see here.
Chapter Ancient
Spoiler:
6 S4 AP-3 attacks. Yawn. At least it's better than the Primaris Ancient, who apparently forgot his sword back on Mars or something.
Chapter Champion
Spoiler:
8 Power Sword attacks and 2 Champion's Blade attacks per turn. We already have a Champion though, the Emperor's Champion. Sure, this guy is half as expensive, but he's also half as good.
Honour Guard
Spoiler:
These guys would get to actually be decent again. 4 Power Axe attacks per model and turn is good, but they're not going to break the game. There's also the mind-numbingly dumb number restriction holding these guys back anyway. Fun fact: even with 4 attacks each one of these guys kills less MEQ per turn than a Khorne Berzerker attacking with a Chainaxe alone. These guys are obviously a lot tankier than Khorne Berzerkers, but they're also a lot more expensive and don't offer better offensive output even at double their current points. I'll reiterate this because it's a running theme among the supposed "Elite" CC units in the Space Marine Codex: EVEN AT TWICE THEIR CURRENT NUMBER OF ATTACKS THESE GUYS KILL LESS MEQ MODELS THAN KHORNE BERZERKERS!
Company Ancient
Spoiler:
He's a Lieutenant with a flag.
Apothecary
Spoiler:
He fights with a Chainsword. Even if you gave him the Teeth of Terra he wouldn't break the game.
Company Champion
Spoiler:
We have one of these, it's called the Emperor's Champion.
Company Veterans (AKA Sword Brethren)
Spoiler:
Here's one of the units that would actually become great if they fought twice each phase. With Chainswords they'd have 6 attacks each while having one hand free for a shooting weapon, or if they went all out they could go for two chainswords each and get 8 (which is still worse than Khorne Berzerkers. Noticing a trend?). You could take a Power Weapon of choice and a Chainsword for 4 PW attacks and 2 Chainsword attacks a turn, or you could take a Power Weapon and a shooting weapon to make a good generalist unit. You'd still be as squishy as ever though.
Servitors
Spoiler:
BROKEN! OVERPOWERED! CHEESE!
Primaris Apothecary
Spoiler:
Same as the ordinary one.
Reiver Squad
Spoiler:
These guys would be ghetto Khorne Berzekers (NOTICING THE TREND YET??); more durable but only half the attacks (and less S and no Power Weapon/Fist). They get Deep Strike which helps immensely with actually getting to the enemy, so that's a plus.
Aggressor Squad
Spoiler:
4 Power Fist attacks per model would be nice if they'd ever get into melee. With M5" and the Repulsor as the only way of speeding them up, you're spending an awful lot of points just to get 12 Power Fist attacks into melee.
Terminator Squad
Spoiler:
Same as the Aggressors above, except these guys actually get Deep Strike and so might possibly get into range of the enemy before the game ends. With 4 attacks each Terminators might actually accomplish something and not be a complete joke unlike the last 3 (at least) editions. Note that five Terminators would have an equivalent number of attacks to 5 Meganobz, except the Meganobz would have better Strength. The Terminators obviously have better shooting and more reliable Deep Strike while the Nobz have a wound extra, but the fact that Meganobz aren't sweeping armies up left, right, and centre seems to indicate that being stronger than Meganobz doesn't have to be an indicator in itself of brokenness.
Terminator Assault Squad
Spoiler:
The pièce de résistance of Vanilla Marine melee power; arguably the consistently best melee unit in the Codex since 5th edition. I'll split these into two since LC Termies and TH/SS Termies are rather different.
TH/SS Terminators would be great, no questions asked. They'd hit harder than Meganobz (lower S but permanent 3 wounds and better AP) while being tougher as well, with more reliable deployment options thanks to Deep Strike. MANz would still be more resistant to low- and medium-strength shooting (notably being twice as tough against Autocannons and the like and almost as tough against overcharged Plasma) and be significantly cheaper than TH/SS Terminators. The offensive potential would be terrific, but they'd still be hampered by the fact that they're hideously expensive and not very tanky, on top of being slow.
LC Terminators would get 6 attacks. They'd actually kill slightly more MEQ per turn than World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers on the charge, while being tankier and having Deep Strike to boot. Of course, they're also twice as expensive, so they've really only got an edge in tankiness (and even then overcharged Plasma, the king of the current meta, is better against the Terminators than against the Khorne Berzerkers). These'd be good, but vulnerable to one of the most common weapons at the moment and having the same slowness-issue as their TH/SS brethren without the 3++.
Cataphractii Terminator Squad
Spoiler:
It's a tankier but slower version of either the Tactical Terminators or the LC Terminators, or a mix. Same offensive output in melee at any rate, with the only notable variable the fact that you can mix-and-match melee weapons a bit more freely.
Tartaros Terminator Squad
Spoiler:
It's a faster Terminator Squad. Same melee output potential as Cataphractii, so hardly game-breaking.
Vanguard Veteran Squad
Spoiler:
Able to actually compete with Khorne Berzerkers. Double chainsword and Jump Pack gives these guys 8 attacks, same as a charging World Eaters Khorne Berzerker, althought the Berzerker will have a Chainaxe giving better AP on 6 of those attacks, along with an innate S5 to the S4 of the Vanguard Veterans. The Vanguard Veterans are much more mobile, however, meaning these'd be comparable to Berzerkers. You could mix some Power Weapons in, but that'd also increase your cost and reduce your number of attacks, so it'd depend on what you wanted to fight. Still, these are already one of the few decent melee units in the book, so it's no surprise that they'd get better still.
Sternguard Veteran Squad
Spoiler:
These'd be similar to the Intercessors, trading tankiness for better ranged weapons. They'd have the hitting power of Boyz in close combat while having excellent shooting potential, although they'd still be awfully squishy. They'd also still compete with Company Veterans, who do roughly the same thing except they get to take Chainswords. There's the Stratagem for these guys at least.
Dreadnought
Spoiler:
8 attacks isn't going to make a Dreadnought broken for the simple reason that it has to walk across the board at M6" to get to the enemy. Sure, if it makes it across it'd have less than half the damage output of a TH/SS Terminator squad, but when does that happen?
Ironclad Dreadnought
Spoiler:
On paper, 8 S12 AP-4 5 wound attacks per turn seems absolutely ludicrously broken. In practice, you're stuck with M5" unless you spend 300 points on a Stormraven to fly you in to kill one target before your enemy melts you because T8 doesn't really help all that much when you only have 8 wounds and a 3+ save.
Venerable Dreadnought
Spoiler:
Same as the Dreadnought, except more venerable.
Contemtor Dreadnought
Spoiler:
Surprisingly, NOT the same as the Dreadnought since it starts off with M9". This could actually be pretty good, but it's still only the equivalent of 3 TH/SS Terminators attacking in CC. You're also only T7 with a 3+, althought the 10 wounds and 5++ helps.
Redemptor Dreadnought
Spoiler:
Would undoubtedly be powerful in CC, but it's also really expensive and wants to use its expensive guns, not get locked in CC. Even with the Redemptor Fist it doesn't match the CC output of Tactical Terminators, let alone TH/SS ones.
Centurion Assault Squads
Spoiler:
These'd be slightly better Meganobz except they have absolutely no way of getting into CC other than a 300+ point Stormraven. They've always been worse than TH/SS Terminators, and this wouldn't change.
--Fast Attack--
Bike Squad
Spoiler:
They'd still be Tactical Marines on Bikes, they'd just hit as hard as Assault Marines currently do with better T. Bikes are good because they bring special weapons, not because they fight well, because they don't, even with this change.
Assault Squad
Spoiler:
They'd be what Vanguard currently are, except cheaper and without the fancy weapon options. The fact that it takes an effective doubling of their current attacks to make these guys not suck should tell people something about the state of the melee units in the Vanilla Codex.
Attack Bike Squads
Spoiler:
Like Bikes, except worse in melee and with more expensive guns that you want to be shooting instead of being stuck in CC.
Scout Bike Squads
Spoiler:
They'd essentially be Ork Bikerz. Yawn.
Inceptor Squad
Spoiler:
These guys would be better since they'd have the ability to take more people with them before they inevitably get overrun in melee, if the enemy doesn't just shoot them off the table after they suicide Deep Strike. They're not a melee unit, they wouldn't be good in melee, they'd just be less awful.
--Heavy Support--
Devastator Squad
Spoiler:
They'd be able to fight back better before dying. If you're charging your Devestators into close combat something has already gone irreparably wrong.
Centurion Devastators
Spoiler:
Same as Devastators, except even more so, since you'd be wasting a lot of points having your shooting unit locked in CC.
Hellblaster Squad
Spoiler:
They'd fight like Ork Boyz, which would actually be useful as it'd allow them to kill off weak tarpit units so they could go back to shooting people with their Plasma guns instead.
Thunderfire Cannon
Spoiler:
Same as the Hellblasters, more attacks might actually let the Techmarine fend for himself against harassing units, forcing your opponent to commit something more substantial to taking him down.
In conclusion, the biggest improvements would be to Helbrecht, the Emperor's Champion, Assault Terminators, Intercessors, and all three types of Veterans.
-Helbrecht and the Emperor's Champion would overshadow and come close to overshadowing comparable units (Khârn for Helbrecht, Juggerlord or Demon Princes for the Emperor's Champion), although none of these overshadowed units are broken in the first place.
-Intercessors and Sternguard Veterans would have their melee power boosted to be on par with Ork Boyz in mobs of 20+ which, while good, isn't overpowered. They'd retain their squishiness, but be able to actually be generalists and dangerous in close combat.
-Jump Pack Vanguard would be comparable to World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers, trading hitting power for mobility or (a significant) volume of attacks for hitting power and mobility. Company Veterans would be weaker in CC than Berzerkers, but would compensate by having actual shooting options to make an excellent generalist unit that can actually compete in both melee and shooting.
-TH/SS Terminators would ruin the day of more or less anything they got into combat with, but would still have the problem of actually getting there in the first place, and the fact that they are less tanky against Plasma than Tactical Marines.
What part exactly is it that is "far too strong" or "hilariously OP"? It'd bring the best melee units in the Codex up to par with Khorne Berzerkers (with TH/SS Terminators being harder to compare since there aren't too many similar units) and the generalist Veterans to the level of Ork Boyz. Razorbacks wouldn't be buffed, Guilliman gunlines wouldn't be buffed, Stormravens wouldn't be buffed, you can't even take Librarians so no buffs to Smite, and you're not getting -1 to hit from Raven Guard or 6+ FNP on all your infantry units.
This'd obviously make Chapter Tactics: Black Templars better than many of the others; the solution then is to buff those to levels where they can compete with other Codices, not to slap every Chapter Tactic down because the others also are bad.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/06 14:50:25
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
0001/01/07 00:49:14
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics
What part exactly is it that is "far too strong" or "hilariously OP"?
You are doubling the close combat power of every infantry unit and dreadnaught without raising the points cost of any of them. Khorner Bezerkers cost 16 ppm, but Crusader Initiates cost 13 ppm and you want to give them the same ability. That just isn't fair. The same is true for every other Black Templars unit, unless you want to raise the price of them all by 25%. As for this compared to every other Chapter Tactics rules, sure you could bring every other chapter to the same level but then everything in the codex would be too powerful for its price.
What is needed is a Chapter Tactics rule that brings Black Templars to the same level as the other chapters are now.
2018/01/07 19:53:55
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics
What part exactly is it that is "far too strong" or "hilariously OP"?
You are doubling the close combat power of every infantry unit and dreadnaught without raising the points cost of any of them. Khorner Bezerkers cost 16 ppm, but Crusader Initiates cost 13 ppm and you want to give them the same ability. That just isn't fair. The same is true for every other Black Templars unit, unless you want to raise the price of them all by 25%. As for this compared to every other Chapter Tactics rules, sure you could bring every other chapter to the same level but then everything in the codex would be too powerful for its price.
What is needed is a Chapter Tactics rule that brings Black Templars to the same level as the other chapters are now.
What part of "Khorne Berzerkers would still be better because they have more attacks, innate S5 and the ability to take Chainaxes" was unclear? Crusader Initiates would reach the offensive level of Ork Boyz. They'd have literally half the attacks of the Khorne Berzerkers at a lower strength.
I'll write this with really big, bolded letters so you don't ignore it again:
Crusader Squads (and Assault Marines) with double their current amount of attacks would have half the number of attacks of World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers at a lower strength, and Khorne Berzerkers can also take Chainaxes for better AP and S6.
Even Vanguard Veterans, arguably currently one of the best melee units in the book, would merely reach parity in number of attacks with World Eater Khorne Berzerkers (assuming double chainswords on the Vanguard Veterans), and the Khorne Berzerkers still have S5 (or 6, 7 on the charge if World Eaters which I've been assuming) with the potential to have better AP.
I don't understand the reluctance to make things better without a point increase. If something is underperforming for its current cost the solution isn't to give it a buff and to make it more expensive to compensate, it's to make it better for the same cost. That's literally the entire point of buffing something. Crusader Squads are underperforming at their current cost, so we either drop the cost or we make them better. Increasing their cost to match their new abilities just means they're relatively just as powerful as they currently are, which is what we're trying to remedy in the first place. If something is rubbish you up the stats, you don't pretend it's balanced already.
Khorne Berzerkers would still be at worst on-par with every melee unit in the book, and you're calling this "far too strong" and "hilariously OP". Better buckle down for the Daemons Codex then.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Khorne Berserkers: 16 points base, for 2 (4) S5 WS 3+ attacks.
17 points to upgrade to S6 AP-1, or keep chainsword for +1 attack per model.
Vanguard Veterans: 16 points base, for 2 (4) S4 WS 3+ attacks.
May take a second chainsword, upgrading to 4 (8) attacks per model.
May take a Power Weapon, Fist, Lightning Claw, or Thunder Hammer, as well as a Storm Shield.
May take Jump Packs, for vastly increased mobility and Deep Strike.
So, Khorne Berserkers, at 16 PPM, get 3 attacks (4 on the champ) at S5. Vanguard Vets, at 16 PPM, get 4 attacks (5 on the Sergeant) at S4. Berserkers also get a Bolt Pistol, but that means very little.
Edit: MATH!
5 Vanguard Vets, double chainswords, vs. 5 Khorne Berserkers, chainsword and pistol, World Eaters.
So, assuming the Berserkers get the charge off, and are World Eaters, and shoot their pistols, they perform a little better. If they don't get the charge, though, they still do a little better against MEQs.
But, considering the number of options Vanguard Vets have, I'd take them and their ability to Deep Strike and have a 12" move for a few more points, or AP-3, or storm shields, or etc. etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/07 20:15:26
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/01/08 02:50:30
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics
@AlmightyWalrus
There is no need to be rude to me just because I am mistaken about some detail. All you have to do is point things out.
Having gone over what both of us have written I do realise that Crusader squads will still not be as powerful as Bezerkers. If they both fight twice in combat Crusaders would have 4 attacks and Bezerkers would have 8. This isn't looking too bad. The point you outlined with bold text was not in your previous post as far as I can see, so don't shout at me about it when I had no opportunity to see it before.
On the other hand this rule does feel a bit extreme when applied to every unit in the codex. Seeing the breakdown you did for all the other units in the codex is what makes me more hesitant. The Blood for the Blood God rule only applies to Kharn and Bezerkers from what I can tell. Khorne Bzerkers are an elite unit while Kharn is a named character, which impose detachment restrictions which are another balancing factor. I don't think it's appropriate to apply this rule as broadly as Chapter Tactics. You are absolutely right in that if one wants to buff an army or unit to address a weakness then one shouldn't negate it with a price increase; however there is an upper limit to how far you can fairly buff something without increasing the price, and a few of us here think this proposal goes beyond that limit.
Reroll one or both die?
A least then if you get a 6 on one die you don't have to reroll that die...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think their chapter tactic would be better if there were a penalty for leaving combat.
Anything you charge probably isn't gonna want to be in combat, so I'd say that's more the issue
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 07:34:27
The problem with your proposed "fix" Almighty Walrus, is that you aren't suggesting it's applied to initiates only, you're suggesting that each and every infantry, Biker and Dreadnought unit gets the "Berzerker buff".
If you want initiates or straight crusaders fixed, propose a solution befitting them, don't suggest an (virtually) army-wide, massive buff for free. You keep stating things like "they'd have the same offensive power as Ork Boyz". You mean Ork Boyz with choppas and 20+ models? Thing is - they don't have a 6+ T shirt save, 5" movement, BS5+ and all the other inherent weaknesses of the Ork army.
You've made your dreadnoughts and bikes twice as effective in cqc for not cost and you believe this to be balanced? No. Khorne bezerkers are an edge case - this would be absurdly imbalanced when you factor the melee weapon options of things like Termies, Dreads and Vets.
2018/01/08 13:54:01
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics
Marksman224 wrote: @AlmightyWalrus
There is no need to be rude to me just because I am mistaken about some detail. All you have to do is point things out.
Sorry if I came across as a bit abrasive, I'll try to tone it down. "This is still worse than Khorne Berzerkers" was a running joke in the summary of units though, it's mentioned at least four times. Honour Guard would still be worse against MEQ than Berzerkers, for example.
Marksman224 wrote: The Blood for the Blood God rule only applies to Kharn and Bezerkers from what I can tell. Khorne Bzerkers are an elite unit while Kharn is a named character, which impose detachment restrictions which are another balancing factor. I don't think it's appropriate to apply this rule as broadly as Chapter Tactics.
But playing Black Templars is effectively the same limitations that Khârn applies in having to take World Eaters. It's not like you could take Raven Guard or Ultramarines with these buffs, it'd be limited to Black Templars, same as Khârn and old-style Furious Charge is limited to the World Eaters. I'd totally missed that you can't take Khorne Berzerkers as Troops anymore though, so cheers for pointing that out. Still, they'd outperform anything that wasn't also an Elites choice.
Plus, any CSM or Vanilla Marine unit can already use a Stratagem to fight an additional time. The ability is not limited to Berzerkers and Khârn, they're just the only ones (so far) who have it baseline.
You've made your dreadnoughts and bikes twice as effective in cqc for not cost and you believe this to be balanced? No. Khorne bezerkers are an edge case - this would be absurdly imbalanced when you factor the melee weapon options of things like Termies, Dreads and Vets.
Why? You haven't actually shown this to be the case beyond repeatedly asserting that it would be broken. Dreadnoughts still have to walk across the table to punch the enemy in the face unless you buy a Stormraven to fly them there, at which point you're spending more than a Bloodthirster. I'd certainly hope that something that costs more than 400 points would be powerful, we're getting into Knight territory in cost.
I've already adressed bikes; they'd go from 1 attack per model to two, you still wouldn't want them in CC because their special weapons are the entire point to taking them and S4 AP- attacks are just not worth much at all in such a low quantity. Even with Chainswords you'd still have them be the equivalent of Vanguard Veterans today in damage, which is decent but hardly game-breaking.
An Actual Englishman wrote: If you want initiates or straight crusaders fixed, propose a solution befitting them, don't suggest an (virtually) army-wide, massive buff for free. You keep stating things like "they'd have the same offensive power as Ork Boyz". You mean Ork Boyz with choppas and 20+ models? Thing is - they don't have a 6+ T shirt save, 5" movement, BS5+ and all the other inherent weaknesses of the Ork army.
Ork Boyz also aren't 13 PPM. The point was to illustrate that the offensive output isn't going to completely obliterate whatever they touch. It's literally identical to where double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans are today, and they're not breaking the game.
But, considering the number of options Vanguard Vets have, I'd take them and their ability to Deep Strike and have a 12" move for a few more points, or AP-3, or storm shields, or etc. etc.
But by taking those options they no longer have 4 attacks per model, and increase their cost.
5 17 PPM Chainsword/Chainaxe Berzerkers vs. 21 5 PPM Vanguard Veterans with Power Axe and Chainsword
Berzerkers vs GEQ:
11 Chainaxe attacks, 7.333 hits, 4.888 wounds, 4.074 after saves.
5 Chainsword attacks, 3.333 hits, 2.222 wounds, 1.481 after saves.
Total: 5.555 dead GEQ, ~15.555 points per wound caused
Berzerkers vs. MEQ 11 Chainaxe attacks, 7.333 hits, 4.888 wounds, 2.444 after saves.
5 Chainsword attacks, 3.333 hits, 2.222 wounds, 0.741 after saves.
Total: 3.185 dead MEQ, ~26.7 points per wound caused
Vanguard Veterans vs. GEQ 11 Power Axe attacks, 7.333 hits, 4..888 wounds, no save allowed.
5 chainsword attacks, 3.333 hits, 2.222 wounds, 1.481 after saves.
Total: 6.370 dead GEQ, ~16.5 points per wound caused.
Vanguard Veterans vs. MEQ 11 Power Axe attacks, 7.333 hits, 4.888 wounds, 3.259 after saves.
5 Chainsword attacks, 3.333 hits, 1.667 wounds, 0.556 after saves.
Total: 3.815 dead MEQ, ~27.5 points per wound caused.
You could get the Vanguard Vets slightly more point-efficient by using Power Swords instead, since they're 1 PPM cheaper and won't change the calculations (the +1S from axe is irrelevant against GEQ but so is the better AP of the Sword, while the +1S is offset by the -1 AP against MEQ). Regardless, my proposed Vanguard Veterans with Power Weapons are less point-efficient at killing both MEQ and GEQ than Khorne Berzerkers. You can of course give Vanguard Veterans Jump Packs, but that's another 2 PPM. I'd certainly hope that a more expensive unit had something going for it over a cheaper one. Plus, you can run Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers if you're worried over mobility and infiltrate them.
Ultimately, Vanguard Veterans would end up rivalling Khorne Berzerkers, with both performing better under certain circumstances. How is that unfair? Sure, Khorne Berzerkers are the most crazed followers of the Blood God, but Black Templar Sword Brethren are the craziest of the bunch that invented the Land Raider Crusader so they could cut their foes to ribbons faster.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Yea I'm really struggling to take the OP seriously now. We're being trolled right? Not even the most xenos hating, zealous, self-flagellant loyal servant of the Emperor would try and spin this as a legit Black Templar fix?
And what about Dreadnoughts? They'd perform worse against hordes than Berserkers, but they'd mulch heavy enemies with ease.
Hell, an Ironclad (with their Dreadnought Chainfist) goes from doing an average of (4 attacks, 8/3 hits, 16/9 wounds, for 64/9 or about) 7 wounds to an Imperial Knight to a whopping 14. Or, against, say, a Rhino, they go from hurting it to killing it in one round.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Rydria wrote: You want to give your entire army a 3CP stratagem as a passive ?
While also retaining the re-roll charges, the fact you can't see why this chapter tactic is broken is hilarious.
You're assuming that the 3 CP is appropriately costed.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea I'm really struggling to take the OP seriously now. We're being trolled right? Not even the most xenos hating, zealous, self-flagellant loyal servant of the Emperor would try and spin this as a legit Black Templar fix?
So tell me why, beyond variations of "it's broken!" or "it's blatantly overpowered!". Give me actual reasons, not just the same line repeated over and over and then calling me a troll.
I laid out my argument about Dreadnoughts; they're slow and have no good way beyond a 300+ point Stormraven to speed up.
If the problem is the Dreadnoughts, how about just a blanket +2 attacks? For most of the stuff it'd be effectively the same, but the Characters, Dreadnoughts and Veterans wouldn't be as powerful any longer.
And yes, I realize that this'd be better than the World Eaters' trait by quite a margin, but, again, the melee units in Codex: Space Marines are hot garbage to meh at best. +1 attack on the charge, as has been suggested, wouldn't change a thing. You still wouldn't have a viable melee army, because most of the units would still be rubbish.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
this seems a tad powerful for a chapter tactic. I mean, some guys are stuck with BS like rerolling morale tests.
Although now I come to think of it, the dreadnoughts wont benefit much as their issue is being too fragile to make it to assault, their damage output if/when they get there is fine
Chaos undivided: 8300, Tau empire: 5600, Ork speed freaks: 1750
2018/01/09 01:42:22
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics
You've made your dreadnoughts and bikes twice as effective in cqc for not cost and you believe this to be balanced? No. Khorne bezerkers are an edge case - this would be absurdly imbalanced when you factor the melee weapon options of things like Termies, Dreads and Vets.
Why? You haven't actually shown this to be the case beyond repeatedly asserting that it would be broken. Dreadnoughts still have to walk across the table to punch the enemy in the face unless you buy a Stormraven to fly them there, at which point you're spending more than a Bloodthirster. I'd certainly hope that something that costs more than 400 points would be powerful, we're getting into Knight territory in cost.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea I'm really struggling to take the OP seriously now. We're being trolled right? Not even the most xenos hating, zealous, self-flagellant loyal servant of the Emperor would try and spin this as a legit Black Templar fix?
So tell me why, beyond variations of "it's broken!" or "it's blatantly overpowered!". Give me actual reasons, not just the same line repeated over and over and then calling me a troll.
I think we have made our argument as thouroughly as possible without simply repeating what you have said. I know that we are just saying "the effects that you just mentioned are broken", but that's all we can say. You say for example that the buff isn't broken because unit A has x so it is comparable to unit B with y, but we argue that that is the reason why it is unbalanced. We are stating our conclusions without mentioning facts, but only because we believe the facts that you have mentioned support our conclusion that this is not a fair proposal. At least that's my assessment of this all.
If you think that this Chapter Tactics proposal is justified in order to boost the currently lacklustre close combat power of default marines, then I think you are looking for something more than just chapter tactics.
Reroll charges and give them an anti-fall back mechanic. Like "zealous follow-through: Whenever an enemy falls back and would leave a black templars squad outside 1" of any enemies, you may roll a dice. On a 4+, the Black templar squad may move up to 6" as if consolidating in the fight phase. If they engage any enemy unit in this way, the black templar unit fights first in the fight phase as if it charged, despite it being the opponent's turn."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/09 01:57:01
Anti-fallback might actually work, and it'd harken back to Righteous Zeal of old. The melee units would still mostly be garbage, but actually being able to threaten to lock stuff in combat would help immensely.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
But frankly I'd have to say it needs to be better than what wyches have. Not because we have to have a better version but because even what wyches have is terrible. 4+ to catch someone is nice, but I've seen him fail it more often than not. And wyches aren't exactly the bestest melee unit. We're here complaining about S4 ap- and wyches need to rely on mass S3 ap- lmao
Lol he sent like 7 of them after 2 hellblasters, made it into combat then processed to get 1 wound that I saved hahaha
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/09 16:58:33
niv-mizzet wrote: Reroll charges and give them an anti-fall back mechanic. Like "zealous follow-through: Whenever an enemy falls back and would leave a black templars squad outside 1" of any enemies, you may roll a dice. On a 4+, the Black templar squad may move up to 6" as if consolidating in the fight phase. If they engage any enemy unit in this way, the black templar unit fights first in the fight phase as if it charged, despite it being the opponent's turn."
See this? THIS is a creative solution to an obvious problem and it isn't broken.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
20000+ points
