PROBLEM RESOLVED.

Asked Admins to delete this.

1) I'm not going to read that wall of text.

2) If he's an actual "friend", talk to him.

3) If he's not a friend, move on. Let him do his own thing and suffer the consequences of his decisions.

 Elbows wrote:
1) I'm not going to read that wall of text.

If you don't feel like reading it, then your commentary is duly noted and disregarded.

I read the wall of text. It sounds like an unpleasant situation to be in, but sadly there's not much I can say as a complete stranger who doesn't know you or your friend.

Ultimately you're responsible for your own actions and behaviour, but not your friends'. If talking doesn't seem to work, maybe walking away is the best option. Toxic player behaviour tends to push people away, and eventually he may be left without anyone to play against. Actions speak louder than words, and maybe he'll reconsider if the consequenses become noticeable enough.

It's not easy to handle a friend behaving badly, I think most people know that from experience. In the end, there may be nothing you can do, and that's frustrating. I do hope the situation can be resolved, but if anyone can tell you how to do it it's someone close to you and/or your friend.

Best wishes.

 Cream Tea wrote:
I read the wall of text. It sounds like an unpleasant situation to be in, but sadly there's not much I can say as a complete stranger who doesn't know you or your friend.

Ultimately you're responsible for your own actions and behaviour, but not your friends'. If talking doesn't seem to work, maybe walking away is the best option. Toxic player behaviour tends to push people away, and eventually he may be left without anyone to play against. Actions speak louder than words, and maybe he'll reconsider if the consequenses become noticeable enough.

It's not easy to handle a friend behaving badly, I think most people know that from experience. In the end, there may be nothing you can do, and that's frustrating. I do hope the situation can be resolved, but if anyone can tell you how to do it it's someone close to you and/or your friend.

Best wishes.

Thanks, buddy. I appreciate the insight. And I know it's a lot to read, but it's also a situation that is kind of complex.

I could put this guy in front of you to play any game in the world, even Age of Sigmar, and you'd say... "Wow, he's the most pleasant player!" because he's that cool... but something about 40k just makes this guy... different. I don't know what it is. I keep wracking my brain, I've tried to study some of the local meta and see if there's some aggressive players that made him think this was the norm but... nothing.

1) please provide a tldr
2) this is not really a general thing as it's a you problem
3) if he is being that guy you do one of 4 things
- tell him he is being a TFG
- play an equally TFG list against him to show him how it feels
-dont play him (best option)
-play the anti fun list which is 2000 points of nothing but nuglings/poxwalkera/ or cultists. Your not going to win, but he is going to need to sit there for an hour + as you take your turn and your gonna loose but he is killing cultists so no real victory(my fav option)

I have read the wall of text. Making a "Intervention" can be the best idea.

If for that, he stops being your friend? Well, maybe I'm a little strange but for me, friends are temporal and circumstantial. I have put aside friendships that I had for nearly 20 years just because I was moving with my life on another direction.

You'll make new friends. Probably very harsh but... people is just people. Or just tell him you don't want to play 40k with him but you are OK with hanging out. I have friends that I don't do some things with them because... nearly the same reasons as you have provided here.

 Galas wrote:
You'll make new friends. Probably very harsh but... people is just people. Or just tell him you don't want to play 40k with him but you are OK with hanging out. I have friends that I don't do some things with them because... nearly the same reasons as you have provided here.

Fair enough. But I'm partially concerned he'll keep this up and become a pain in the ass for other people. If he wants to have a meltdown over a 'Come to Jesus' talk and stop being friends, I'll accept that as 'quality control' and move on with my life. But ideally, I'd like for him to just stop being a douchebag for everyone's sake.

One of the hardest things in life is knowing when enough is enough. This guys is not only ruining the game for you, but the entire community you two live in. Talking to him hasn't worked, so its time for stronger measures.

Some people just are annoying to play games with, as they take them way too seriously, yet they can be perfectly nice people otherwise. However, what I find perplexing about this situation is that he behaves like this only in relation to one specific game; I really don't get how that can be the case, nor how he cannot realise this even when pointed out.

And no game is worth breaking friendships over, but this doesn't mean you have to tolerate his behaviour. Easy option of course is just not to play 40K with him, but that does not address his behaviour towards other people. Then again, it perhaps it is up to those other people to tell him how they feel.

In any case, you, and other people in your gaming community are fully within your rights to tell this problem player that they no longer want to play with him due his toxic attitude, and if that makes him to break the friendship, it is not your fault.

 CynosureEldar wrote:
Talking to him hasn't worked, so its time for stronger measures.

I'll ask- what would you do? I have mulled over a few options...

1- Getting him a temporary ban from the store. And the thing is, all of our stores are on the same sheet of music and have a friendly working relationship and you can bet if Store A bans you, Stores B, C, and D will follow- as will all the private clubs.

2- Getting him a ban in the stores from playing 40k. Same as above.

3- Getting people together to make sure everyone knows it's a poor idea to play with him. I'd be afraid that this would be irreversible.

4- Encouraging people just to stop playing with him and leave the table when he behaves that way.

5- Tell him I'm done with him, and it's all because he acts like a moron when he plays 40k and I'm embarassed to know him when he's gaming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
... However, what I find perplexing about this situation is that he behaves like this only in relation to one specific game; I really don't get how that can be the case, nor how he cannot realise this even when pointed out.

The dude doesn't play many war games, only 40k and a little bit of Sigmar. But any other board game, video game, or something like that- he's calm. I'm not sure how competitive he is in video games, we've mostly done Co-op and MMO's. He's about average in shooters from what I've seen, and he's pretty jolly and fun when he plays Call of Warfare of whatever the newest version of WW2 is out.

Just don't play with him Jesus Christ man. Be an adult, tell him to gak off. It's a game of toy soldiers ment to be for fun, if he is ruining that tell him no you are not playing with me, it's literally that simple. If he wants to ruin a friendship over plastic action figures then it's not a friendship worth keeping.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Just don't play with him Jesus Christ man. Be an adult, tell him to gak off. It's a game of toy soldiers ment to be for fun, if he is ruining that tell him no you are not playing with me, it's literally that simple. If he wants to ruin a friendship over plastic action figures then it's not a friendship worth keeping.

If I'm not mistaken, you didn't read the actual post. You'll have to forgive me if your suggestion here is disregarded as well, especially since it seethes of rudeness.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Just don't play with him Jesus Christ man. Be an adult, tell him to gak off. It's a game of toy soldiers ment to be for fun, if he is ruining that tell him no you are not playing with me, it's literally that simple. If he wants to ruin a friendship over plastic action figures then it's not a friendship worth keeping.

If I'm not mistaken, you didn't read the actual post. You'll have to forgive me if your suggestion here is disregarded as well, especially since it seethes of rudeness.

You posted a wall of text asking to help with TFG. Help me help you man. Why can't you just tell him I don't want to play with you, the game is not fun.

I really don't think you need to organise bans or anything of the sort. People can decide on their own whether they want to play with him. You could of course encourage other people who have problem with his attitude to directly tell him that, so that it is not just you complaining to him.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

You posted a wall of text asking to help with TFG. Help me help you man. Why can't you just tell him I don't want to play with you, the game is not fun.

I think you'd need to actually read the text to understand what's going on. It's a lot, I know. But if you don't see all the details, then your advice isn't really going to help.

Primarily because, in simple terms- I've already done that, in some manner. It's in the wall of text. I can't make you sit and read it, but it's like I'm explaining a problem with a computer and you're not letting me get into the details of the issue and you're just saying I should restart it. It's not helping.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 CynosureEldar wrote:
Talking to him hasn't worked, so its time for stronger measures.

I'll ask- what would you do? I have mulled over a few options...

1- Getting him a temporary ban from the store. And the thing is, all of our stores are on the same sheet of music and have a friendly working relationship and you can bet if Store A bans you, Stores B, C, and D will follow- as will all the private clubs.

2- Getting him a ban in the stores from playing 40k. Same as above.

3- Getting people together to make sure everyone knows it's a poor idea to play with him. I'd be afraid that this would be irreversible.

4- Encouraging people just to stop playing with him and leave the table when he behaves that way.

5- Tell him I'm done with him, and it's all because he acts like a moron when he plays 40k and I'm embarassed to know him when he's gaming.

It comes down to you and your community. I would tell him I was done playing with him until further notice, and let other players know as well. This gives him a chance to reconcile if he chooses to stop acting like a toddler. (A little 5, a little 3) If he chooses to not be friends with you over this, then he is not a good friend. Don't blame yourself for his actions, just because hes your friend and you guys started 40k together. He is an adult, and can wreck his relationships as he pleases.

Or just tell him that he makes the game not fun. It's not hard to tell him that. So long as he is not a man child it's not a big deal. I have games I don't play with some of my good friends and I have told them why. We either don't play the game, or they change the way they act. It's your hobby, if your not having fun because of someone that's turning into a TFG, and you are not calling him on it, your causing your own problems

 Crimson wrote:
I really don't think you need to organise bans or anything of the sort. People can decide on their own whether they want to play with him. You could of course encourage other people who have problem with his attitude to directly tell him that, so that it is not just you complaining to him.

Yeah, but the only issue there is I'm part-timing at one of the FLGS stores on the weekends, just for a few hours so that the 3 people working there (not all at once, it has a total of 3 employees) can get time to catch up on inventory and have an actual dinner break. I kinda work at the store, and I'm kind of expected to actually help out a little bit.

Have you told him, like flat out, not sugar coating it,

" You do not make this hobby fun for me so I'm not going to play with you "

You need to establish HE is ruining YOUR hobby, and that you are going to take actions to prevent that.

Life is too short for dudes like that. Move on.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I really don't think you need to organise bans or anything of the sort. People can decide on their own whether they want to play with him. You could of course encourage other people who have problem with his attitude to directly tell him that, so that it is not just you complaining to him.

Yeah, but the only issue there is I'm part-timing at one of the FLGS stores on the weekends, just for a few hours so that the 3 people working there (not all at once, it has a total of 3 employees) can get time to catch up on inventory and have an actual dinner break. I kinda work at the store, and I'm kind of expected to actually help out a little bit.

I totally fail to see the relevance of this.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Have you told him, like flat out, not super coating it,

" You do not make this hobby fun for me so I'm not going to play with you "

You need to establish HE is ruining YOUR hobby, and that you are going to two actions to prevent that.

More like: "Dude, playing with you is like playing with 'Bob'."

Bob was a local guy that had some severe mental issues. He would scream, punch himself in the head if he made bad moves, brag about everything and yell over everyone, be flat-out rude to people, all manner of bad behavior. Bob couldn't help it, and we tried to be patient, but we just weren't equipped to handle Bob's mental illness and we had to ask him to move on.

I told him, at least once, "Dude you act like the scummy neckbeard that we promised never to act like. You're being 'that f'n guy' when you play."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I totally fail to see the relevance of this.

I'm an employee. If I let him behave like he does, it sends a bad message out on behalf of the store. I'm expected to intervene at some point, and I sadly think that point was a while back and it's long overdue. I've asked people to leave for less, and it makes me seem biased because, of course, he is my friend.

No that's what you are doing wrong, you are sugsr coating it. This is the same as me teasing my friend.

If you want him to actually understand, you need to address it head on, don't be affriad of conflict because it's toy soliders.

Tell him these exact words

"Anon, honestly I don't like playing with you, you don't make this hobby fun, and I'm not the only one who feels that way, you are litterally making it not fun to be a part of this hobby, so because of that I'm not going to be playing any more games with you, and I'm sure some other people here feel the same way. "

You have to establish the fact that he understand that he is making it miaserable for you to play. Saying lol man your being like Bob or a TFG does not really dive it home to him that he is ruining the hobby. Either he accepts it and Chages or contiens to be a TFG, at which point, you can still be friends because it's just a game of toy soldiers. Like o said I have good friends I refuse to play some games with, does not mean I don't like them, I just won't play games like magic with some friends, or HotS with others.

no game is worth risking a friend, but then no friend really behaves that way either. you could gum up the works and start playing AoS around him all the time not using points

 Backspacehacker wrote:
No that's what you are doing wrong, you are sugsr coating it. This is the same as me teasing my friend.

Eh, I might have to disagree with you there. Saying, "Hey, you are behaving like the guy that made people pack up and leave the store and turned it into a ghost town on the weekends" is pretty straightforward, but I think you'd have to be a local to know. Bob was pretty well known- it wasn't something you joked about, Bob's meltdowns were something you learned to dread.

 thekingofkings wrote:
no game is worth risking a friend, but then no friend really behaves that way either. you could gum up the works and start playing AoS around him all the time not using points

skyere drill teams at 2k points man. Quickest way to give a TFG a taste of his own medicine is having 30+ auto hitting mortal wounds turn one.

 thekingofkings wrote:
no game is worth risking a friend, but then no friend really behaves that way either. you could gum up the works and start playing AoS around him all the time not using points

I liked the other guy's idea- just put down a massive horde of Cultists and Poxwalkers as an army and make it an unbearably boring game. I've got tons of the former, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to have them stashed in the store to let others use to teach him a lesson.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
No that's what you are doing wrong, you are sugsr coating it. This is the same as me teasing my friend.

Eh, I might have to disagree with you there. Saying, "Hey, you are behaving like the guy that made people pack up and leave the store and turned it into a ghost town on the weekends" is pretty straightforward, but I think you'd have to be a local to know. Bob was pretty well known- it wasn't something you joked about, Bob's meltdowns were something you learned to dread.

Clearly it's not because he keeps doing it.

Like I said, confront him, not pussy foot around him, tell him, YOU are the one that's runining this hobby not Bob you. If you dont actually address the problem head on it's clearly never going to change.

Saying you are acting like this one guy, is not addressing it head on, confront him, tell him he is ruining the game. Stop being passive about it stop pussy footing around it, call a spade a spade or it's never going to change.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I'm an employee. If I let him behave like he does, it sends a bad message out on behalf of the store. I'm expected to intervene at some point, and I sadly think that point was a while back and it's long overdue. I've asked people to leave for less, and it makes me seem biased because, of course, he is my friend.

Right. What do the other people working in the store think about the situation? There probably is some sort of store policy on acceptable behaviour, and if that is breached, then naturally it is your job to ask him to leave. Though it might be even better if some of the other employees or the store owner did so, so it would not be just him vs you situation. It might carry more weight and would be less awkward to you personally.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Clearly it's not because he keeps doing it.

I hate to say "You should have read it" again, but I do touch on the fact that after I've had to get right in his face about it- he's stopped doing it within earshot of me. He's obviously well aware of how I feel about t.

Better yet since you are an employee tell him to GTFO, if he is driving business away, one customer down is worth it if it means more customers.

No gak story here. I knew a guy that was an awesome guy, would always go into the store and play. One day a TFG came in and set up shop, and did tfg stuff and you know what he did? Drove customers away from the store. One day my friend was in the store again, buying some stuff and the owner asked him yo man why don't I see you here any more? My friend told the manager that honestly it was because of the TFG, the manager then in the middle of the store said, he's the one driving ally customers away!? Pointed him out and yelled at him from across the store to get his gak and GTFO. The TFG left the store, and business picked back up, he came back later on but was no longer a dick.

It's called tough love my man, and some times you gotta do it, especially If business is involved.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Clearly it's not because he keeps doing it.

I hate to say "You should have read it" again, but I do touch on the fact that after I've had to get right in his face about it- he's stopped doing it within earshot of me. He's obviously well aware of how I feel about t.

And this is exactly why the best approach would be to get other people to tell this to his face too.

There is power in numbers, I'm not saying publicly humiliate the guy, but call him out in front of others.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
no game is worth risking a friend, but then no friend really behaves that way either. you could gum up the works and start playing AoS around him all the time not using points

skyere drill teams at 2k points man. Quickest way to give a TFG a taste of his own medicine is having 30+ auto hitting mortal wounds turn one.

Skaven carry disease, I wont touch them or any other rat. they are gross.

Nuuuuuu rats are adorable and make wonderful pets =^W^=

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Nuuuuuu rats are adorable and make wonderful pets =^W^=

like skaven, they drag their anus around, drop little "pellets of fun" and pee where they please. they chew and infest. and thats just the two legged ones. sooo gross, really nasty, plus...plague monks... just saying

Nuuuuuu they are of the adorable squeekers

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Nuuuuuu they are of the adorable squeekers

your a skaven player arent you......I have some fine bearded gentlemen with flaming axes and fire spitting dragons to introduce you to.

Ew God no, I would not play them, way to much to paint pass.

Damn dude, if he finds this post he'll sure as hell know you're talking about him. The parts of the Story about his girlfriend should be enough for that.

Just tell us what that army is and we can provide you with some royal cheese lists to crush him.

Start a "Primary Army" yourself and let him swallow his own medicine.

Oh man is this now a hate crafted thread?! I think this is now a hate craft thread....

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Better yet since you are an employee tell him to GTFO, if he is driving business away, one customer down is worth it if it means more customers.
....

It's called tough love my man, and some times you gotta do it, especially If business is involved.

I get that. It's definitely not off the table. I do like to believe that people can learn, can figure it out. So far, everyone's offered good advice. I think what it's going to take is several steps...

...maybe like someone else said, have someone talk to him. Or rather, a group of people. Some of the more rational and straightforward ones that won't turn it into a lynch mob.

Then after that, if he persists, bar him from playing 40k in the store (I'd have to get approval from the manager). He'll be allowed to shop, sit and paint and build, or play other games- but no 40k until his attitude improves. Maybe wait a month, then let him play 40k with an employee's blessing (and nearby supervision).

If he keeps it up after that, I think the best approach is a total ban.

If at any point he comes forward and says, "Yeah, I was being a tool. I'm gonna knock it off and be a better dude" then it's over and done with as long as he holds up to it.

I mean that's a good approch but while we are here now, can you post his army for science?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I mean that's a good approch but while we are here now, can you post his army for science?

No, I'd rather not. It'd probably turn into one of those discussions about how so many people who play that army are scumbags (even though I'm pretty sure there is a 'that guy' for every army).

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I mean that's a good approch but while we are here now, can you post his army for science?

This.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I mean that's a good approch but while we are here now, can you post his army for science?

No, I'd rather not. It'd probably turn into one of those discussions about how so many people who play that army are scumbags (even though I'm pretty sure there is a 'that guy' for every army).

You just gave it away. Its Eldar

Lemme guess... since he started that army in 7th it's gonna be loaded with jetbikes?

Oh one more thing!

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
His ‘new player’ was this girl he’d recently started dating- and don’t get me wrong, she’s not a bad person but her investment in the game seems half-hearted at best (she seems to have more fun buying random models and painting them than anything else).

This person really gets what this hobby is about!

Oh man if he is rocking elder, you could just run death gusrd, that would poop in his ceerios.

I'd you want a super meme army, run 4 knights.

 Crimson wrote:
This person really gets what this hobby is about!

I did this for many, many years. Especially when metal minis in blister packs were the thing. I had a shelf that was a mix of random things.

I have to ask,

What is his beloved 'Primary Army'?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I have to ask,

What is his beloved 'Primary Army'?

Yea, that'd be a really helpful thing to know. I bet it's eldar tho

Morkphoiz wrote:

Yea, that'd be a really helpful thing to know.

It is completely irrelevant regarding the actual topic.

Read the wall of text, reminds me of playing 2nd ed in high school, and some experiences from my 3rd ed days.

I've definitely just stopped playing with some people, even friends, who were getting "spoiled" around the game. I've also gone another route, which is to beat them at their own game, either they settle down a bit or leave the hobby for a bit themselves.

Usually when people are acting like that, there's something else going on. The attitude comes from some other source of unhappiness, for which the hobby is merely an outlet. I know that story because I've also been "that guy". I had some rough college days, and I was generally in a bad place at that time. Gaming wasn't the source of unhappiness, but my unhappiness came out more in gaming.

Don't lose the focus of the OP's reasons here. If you have given your advice and have nothing new and believe what you said is great...leave it at that.
OP, I went through a similar issue long ago. This may not be the case at all, I am sharing because perhaps it will help. I do not think anything I am saying is really unique or unusual, but a lot of people fail to realize how these things cause behavior.
My situation followed yours closely. A friend who was normally a pleasant person and invited to games changed when one particular game came about. His change also involved finding a "sure fire" win scenario for the game. Using this "sure fire win" strategy suddenly made this friend feel important/superior/ etc. The bottom line was inside he was extremely insecure, although he hid it well (as we all do). On top of that this insecurity coupled/added to feelings he had no control over his life, and was a failure in most things (this was not true, thus again extremely well-hidden from his friends, and stemmed from mental abuse and bullying from his parents for most of his life...nothing he did was good enough for them)
Because this game was popular, and many people played it (many people he was secretly envious of or wished to impress or held grudges against) he suddenly believed being good and dominating at it made him important. The behavior involving his girlfriend fits the pattern. By dominating in front of her, he is proving his worth as a male (we are still neanderthals inside, and macho comes out in a million ways). My friend also did this. It got to the point where the game and his success became the only representation of his worth, and so when the inevitable fall happened it was devastating, and my group lost him as a friend entirely.
Convincing someone their behavior is poor when the real motivation behind it (possibly insecurity and a desperate need to impress or dominate, or simply know he has control over one aspect of his life he can succeed at) is nearly impossible. Denial has caused more problems in the history of humanity than most other causes.
I have no advice for you. If all you have said truly applies to your friend, this friend has gone beyond your ability to modify. Until they themselves recognize the destructive behavior, they are beyond help. All I can say is you need to avoid being damaged by the behavior.


PS: Insectum7 has made a similar and accurate statement above. I also turned into TFG at points, and exactly as he said, it wasn't the game making me unhappy, but my unhappiness came out when I gamed. I still fight this war, sadly. We all carry baggage we have not dealt with or forgiven ourselves for, and it can come out in very unique ways.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
1) please provide a tldr
2) this is not really a general thing as it's a you problem
3) if he is being that guy you do one of 4 things
- tell him he is being a TFG
- play an equally TFG list against him to show him how it feels
-dont play him (best option)
-play the anti fun list which is 2000 points of nothing but nuglings/poxwalkera/ or cultists. Your not going to win, but he is going to need to sit there for an hour + as you take your turn and your gonna loose but he is killing cultists so no real victory(my fav option)

And if you go with option 4, make sure to roll everything one at a time.

If your friend stops acting like a jerk when within ear-shot of you, he at least values your opinion of him. He likely just thinks that you're over-reacting and isn't aware that other people don't like him.

Telling him he acts like 'Bob' is something he may see as sarcastic or exaggerated - possibly purposefully so, as to be funny. Tell him in a less childish way. Enumerate your issues clearly.

I don't think an 'intervention' would be helpful. It would probably humiliate him and would be overboard if you want to keep the friendship. Make him aware that other people dislike his attitude (and probably him personally if this is their main interaction with him). If he thinks you're just being a jerk or your the one who's off-kilter, refer him to someone else for credibility - possibly a shop owner who can confirm that he is indeed considering kicking him out.

If you're uncomfortable around him, imagine how strangers feel. Having someone like that in my local store would encourage me to simply go to another if he's constantly there being a loud-mouthed pain. A game is probably not worth losing a friend over, but it would be unfair to have to give up on a hobby that you enjoy and could enjoy for many years, possibly beyond the lifespan of the friendship, because of him.

Personally - I would encourage the store to boot him if he were my friend and i had a say in the matter - especially if I've honestly spoken to him without hyperbole (eg: 'you're like bob'). Its likely nobody likes him if what you say is accurate and he probably costs the store money in lost patrons. If he ignores the "you're out if you keep being a dick" warning, then it's his own fault for not heeding it. Its easy enough to say something like "we warned you and you didn't listen. people there don't like you and you're costing the store patrons. I was trying to be a friend by warning you - as i have done repeatedly."

edit: in addition to what edwardmyst above said: I agree, it's likely that his self worth is tied to this game in some way, and he can go ahead and keep it tied to his self worth - the real issue is his behavior. He can be proud of winning without actively being a jerk to others. From your description, your friend sounds young - and if not, then he probably lacks the social skills needed to make him aware that other people dislike the behaviour as well.

So I read the wall of text and I empathise with what's going on for you locally.

I've had a similiarish situation locally but the local player has managed to cooldown.

Ultimately, all you cam to do is talk to him and portray how he is making others / leagues / tournaments feel etc. Past that point there's nothing you can do apart from vote with your feet and others do.

If everytime someone asks for a game he gets the answer no, he will twig something down the line. He can't brag about beating people with no one to play.

I would try to get other people agree with not playing games with him. If enough gets into board he should find it preeetty hard to get games. There can't be infinite amount of players there unaware of him.

If he finds himself unable to get a game maybe he'll get a hint. And what can he do? Complain? Nobody is forced to play with anybody.

1) I have read the wall of text

2) No, 40kis not worth losing a friend over

3) If your friend is nice when not playing 40k, and a dick when playing 40k, then the obvious solution is to not play 40k with him. Tell him that you would prefer to play settlers or Minecraft with, because you play to have fun and you don't like to play 40k competetively.

4) I am myself a competetive powergamer that loves to play with optimized lists. Luckily there are organised events for powergamer. They are called tournaments. Maybe your friend should compete in some tournaments?

5) I have one great friend who is a terrible gloating winner and a horrible whiny crybaby when he loses. I love to play against him. I can pummel him in the worst way possible without feeling the least bit bad about it. With him I always rub it in.

6) Build a list that can destroy his Imperial Guard or Chaos list. Teach him how to lose. If he concedes early, gloat mercilessly.

You can try talking to him again, explain in as much detail as you have in your OP what your friend is doing and why he annoys other players/you when he plays.

If that doesn't work then I would suggest that it is the responsibility of the store manager to ban him or remove him if he is being obnoxious.

Ensure that your stance is clear to your friend so he knows you disapprove of his behaviour.

Alternatively you can kick him in the nuts and smash his models to bits. Then spit on him and leave a note on his head entitled "TFG".

Sometimes friendships end.

Move on.

zerosignal wrote:
Sometimes friendships end.

Move on.

I think the issue I have isn't with losing the friend. I've already come to terms with that being a possibility one way or the other. Either I'm going to get fed up and take a heavy flamer to the bridge, or trying to help the guy see his problem is going to make him burn the bridge himself.

The problem is more about how to get him to knock it off in the community. I don't like seeing a gamer go, the way he does other games... he's a great person to play with. But his attitude in the 40k Community is pretty toxic...

... and I suppose it's worth saying that my fear is if he doesn't stop it before summer. That's when we get a lot more new players, many of them teenagers.

I do NOT want a bunch of teens either chased away from the hobby, or... behaving the same way. Especially since we've had quite a few of the toxic brats in the past that needed to be toned down... and some of them have rich and influential daddies.

I skimmed OP, have you tried talking to him about it? And if it is your shop, explain that if he continues with it, he won't be allowed to play there any more.

I came to the conclusion that while I love hanging out with this guy and doing a lot of things with him, I absolutely hate his guts when he gets to the 40k tables. He’s not my friend then, he’s some obnoxious tool that needs to be taken down a few pegs and maybe slapped in the mouth for good measure. The weird part is, he’s not like this when he does other games- he’s a friendly, fun, and chill player for everything but 40k. He’s actually the most decent dude you’ll ever meet, until he goes to play 40k- and then I honestly see a completely different person, and I hate him.

Simply avoid him with 40k then.
If he really is as sound as you say, you gain nothing by dumping him outright. At best you save some stress around the table, at worst you lose a good friend.

Hes potentially acting out with 40k from a position of power (good army, good player, playing versus weaker players, trying to be alpha male at the game table). Lots of people like that and not just in gaming. Maybe other parts of his life suck and thats his release.

@ OP:
The most important part of your post was basically this statement:

"My friend is mentally ill."

You could try to convince him to seek professional help. He embarasses himself in front of everybody on a regular basis and that is not fun for anyone around him. Trying to "cure" him by beating the snot out of him with some uber competitve lists won´t solve the problem at all. His problems stem probably from some drastic bad experiences. Has he lost his job? Did a relative die? Something along these lines. If he is unwilling to change or seek professional help, you are better off by keeping a distance to him to keep your own mental health intact. The fact that you wrote such an elaborate post is testament to the notion that you feel already deeply disturbed and that is not good for own well being in the long run.

Hope that helps.

I honestly think you should stay out of it and let the rest of the community have the intervention with him and ban him from playing where they (and especially the newbies) play. That way you keep the friend and get rid of the toxicity. If he asks about it just be frank with him without going overboard on the "I told you so's".

Your a guy just tell him. If he gets pissy tell him hes being a baby and man up.

We are capable of taking criticsm. Wont be the first or last time he has taken some.

Have a guy in our group who gets really pissed at dice rolls. We constantly tease him and put signs up were his dice have dented the walls. He knows he struggles and 90% of the time hes great to play.

Just talk. We are all adults. If he cant take a lil intervention hes going to have a hard life.

So, I read everything.

I was/am in a similar situation, though my friend was a lot less toxic than yours.

We used to play with two separate groups for P&P, MtG and WH40k and I know (today) that he was having a lot of personal issues at some point in the past when he started getting toxic in all of our games.

He started to min/max and exploit loopholes in one P&P group, trying to break the story and gaining unfair advantages over other players on multiple occurrences.
The group where he was the GM he started bullying the players and severely punishing anyone who was as much as showing signs of the very same things he was doing in the other round. One exploded into to a player getting up and leaving to be never seen again - not even retrieving to get his cell phone he left behind.
In the other group I tried to find a compromise between his power gaming and role play, but he denied exploiting and min/maxing and claimed it was just his way of doing RP. When I talked him into a corner, instead of admitting what he was doing, he instead left that group and threated to kick me out of the other. Luckily that didn't happen, but on that day some of the players from that group have cut their ties with him for good.

In MtG he would verbally attack or ridicule people for slow play if they were taking a little longer to think, mispronounced cards or did bad plays, start fights when players were not playing optimized decks and get angry when people would stay defensive or attacked him instead of attacking what he thought was an obvious threat on the table to him.
If he was on a losing streak this behavior would intensify until I would throw a game in his favor - considering that we used to play 4+ player FFAs, losing streaks of four or more games were quite common.
When i would disagree with his opinion on some cards, he would feel attacked personally and retaliate.
I know at least three players left our MtG gaming group during this time.

40k wasn't any better: list tailoring, curb-stomping new and fluff players, gloating victories, bitter losses, constantly "misremembering" rules, remote controlling his less experienced allies, arranging team games in his favor and more. I guess all the people on this thread can imagine what I'm talking about.

All of these problems got worse by magnitudes when either a player he was "mentoring" was present, or a woman (confirming what edwardmyst said).

In the end, I stopped playing 40k with him, as did pretty much everyone else. During 7th he kept showing off his new jetbike army, but I don't think he got any games with them.
I didn't want to risk another fight like we had in our P&P group because I didn't want to lose a long-time friend, so tried to arrange 40k games in secret or found excuses for games he was attending. So basically I chickened out.
I kept playing MtG with him and I'm still in the group where he is the GM. Games of magic don't take hours and throwing a game a night by playing some fun deck is not the worst thing to do. However, our MtG group never recovered from losing half our players and it has been disbanded twice since then.

When I returned to 40k because of 8th edition, I kept trying to dodge playing him, but one of our mutual friends kept inviting us both to games so we ended up playing as team and actually had a good time.
He still shows his bad behavior from time to time, but I try to immediately react to it to show him that I'm not willing to tolerate it anymore and he seems to be getting the message.

In the end, we are no longer best friends, but at the very least we stayed friends. I don't feel like it's the best solution, but it's not the worst either.

People are different, so I'm not sure how to handle your friend. My suggestion would be to tell him that you have no interest of playing Wh40k with him anymore, and offer to play a different game instead.
This way you show him that you are still willing to spend time with him, but that you don't like how he acts while playing 40k. When he wants to know the reasons, answer truthfully. I wasn't brave enough to tell my friend that he is being TFG.
If he doesn't... I guess, welcome to the club.

It's not worth losing a friend over. Just don't play 40K with him.

Just talk to him already.

In roleplay we have many people that come to it as a scapegoat to their day to day problems.
People that always want to win (Better if in the way they humilliate others, etc...), that goes behind female player-characters and NPC's like he has taken half a dozen viagras.

I remember a female roleplayer in my online community that was basically behind any kind of young-male she could encounter, trying to seduce them both in the roleplay and out of the roleplay. After she leaved the community I learne she was a single mom in his thirties, and had a very ugly divorce, and was left with a little girl.

Now, after saying all of this... theres people that are just jerks. I have known a bunch of those. They have 0 problems, and they don't have any kind of problem managing their feelings. They are just flat out jerks. But as you describe your friend, he doesn't sound has a jerk. So probably he is having some kind of problems in his personal life?

OP: Your difficulty to have an honest discussion with this person and not get a behavior change already points to there being a big problem that may not be fixable.
Okay, friendship is one thing, income and place of business is another thing.

I had a "friend" that turned out being a pretty hard-core narcissist.
Nicest person you would ever meet until they figure they "got you" in some kind of dependent relationship.

The guy bringing his own flunkies to prop-up his gaming score is a fine example of this.
From a "play to win" viewpoint it is "brilliant".

You know what is a fine easy test to identify them?
They are the only people that are NEVER wrong (that they will to admit to except as a joke).
Their loss or failure is always someone else's fault.
But basking in the light of success is gold to them.

If the guy treats anyone badly, take him up on it right away: do not allow him to have a "free-pass" on social graces.

Personally, I made a point of tooling up my own army to be VERY competitive and stomped my "buddy's" A-list / Primary list.
Oh the carrying on... you may want to try it out because people like this are pretty lazy and do not tweak their list until beaten... repeatedly.
They get EXTRA angry when you change your configuration to something different that is equally competitive.
Make sure also you do not reveal your army until both you and him have your army lists out (these folk tend to have 2-3 lists tailor made for horde vs armor... etc).

I suspect your buddy always was "that guy" and he just made a point of hiding it until he felt comfortable to act like himself.
You may very well be missing the friend that was never there, a fabrication.

If he is acting badly, tell him his actions are a negative impact on your business and please play nice.
As soon as he fails to try after a day or two... turf him to the street.
A real friend will have true respect for your income.

I've not gone through it all in detail yet, but two key things to keep in mind

1) Many people behave as badly as they can get away with and as well as the society they are in demands of them. If your friends behaviour is as such then that means your group is tolerating such behaviour in order for it to be allowed to happen

2) Sometimes (esp when your in a position of power such as the organiser or shop owner/worker) you have to take a hard line to get your point across. It can feel really mean and nasty, but sometimes you've just got to for the betterment of the group. Sometimes trying to keep everyone happy has the opposite effect as you fail to take a firm hand with those who need it - which can quickly result in it annoying many others (those disgruntled with the behaviour and seeing no challenge from those in power will start to get annoyed with the group in general and might well break away to a "group that respects people" and such).

ps a firm hand doesn't mean that you have to be insulting, violent, abrasive in tone, shouting or banning - it means laying down the rules and requirements firmly

@Overread: Good point to make on being tough: When I was a teenager working for my dad at his business. He told me I had to work harder than everyone there because they knew I was the boss's son. I figured that was a good point.

Let the friend know that you will be extra strict with him because people know you are friends so that is how it will go and be ready. He was probably expecting that would be a perk not a detriment in the gaming group.

 Galas wrote:
Now, after saying all of this... theres people that are just jerks. I have known a bunch of those. They have 0 problems, and they don't have any kind of problem managing their feelings. They are just flat out jerks. But as you describe your friend, he doesn't sound has a jerk. So probably he is having some kind of problems in his personal life?

Second this for context - it sounds like these behaviors are (relatively) new. Has he had some issues in life that have come up recently? Was this always him and it just never had a vehicle to get expressed? I think that would dictate how one goes about addressing it. That being said, it sounds like he knows he's behaving poorly (or he wouldn't hide it around you), so he might not be that far gone.

"Did you get a new model or squad that you’re proud of and think will do well? He’ll immediately challenge you, and make it a point to take that model or squad out of the game as quickly as possible. "

This is actually a pretty known psychological tactic. I put it into use all the time though I dont brag about it because once it's known to that opponent, it'll never work again. If they are showing off a new model or are proud of something in their army, kill it fast. Mentally demoralizing and makes them make mistakes.

 Talizvar wrote:

Let the friend know that you will be extra strict with him because people know you are friends so that is how it will go and be ready. He was probably expecting that would be a perk not a detriment in the gaming group.

I wouldn't treat him any different to any other member of the group. Treat them all equal; the only reason this gamer has come up is because his behaviour appears to be more detrimental than the others. You aren't trying to single him out to behave differently to everyone else, you want the same standard from him as from everyone else.

If you've spoken to him about this, multiple times, and he continues to stay this way, then that's on him. You are not going to change him in the slightest.

Your friends are not the people who are hard to talk to. When my friend smells bad I tell him to take a fething shower. Because unlike everyone else he can count on me telling him when hes got a problem. He knows I am his friend. He knows I am telling him because he might not be aware that he smells bad and I am helping him out. Most strangers would say nothing and just talk behind his back. Because I am his friend I am strait forward and say it to his face.

If your friend is being a gakky player or making the game unfun he should be counting on his friends to let him know and set him strait because he cannot count on strangers to do the same.

So you told your friend he stinks and then he doesn't believe it? His musk is the best thing in the world? feth that guy for not listening.

The Geek Social Fallacies may be relevant reading: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

Few further thoughts upon reading more

"Getting people together to make sure everyone knows it's a poor idea to play with him. I'd be afraid that this would be irreversible."

Don't. Either straight up ban him from the community or don't, never play the "oh don't play with him/her" game behind someone's back. You either evict someone from a group clearly or don't, its a nastier game to let them keep turning up, but to have agreed with everyone to ignore them.

Note if everyone, on their own, decides not to play that person that is different; its the group organised ignoring that is the issue.



Secondly I would also ignore all concerns/thoughts regarding the "power" of his army. 40K is about building armies and playing them well and building a good army is part of that process - if he's got a good army that statistically is strong that's great - part of the game - nothing wrong there.

Likewise when you had the league games and he chose weaker opponents; well honestly if you're out to win then that's what any sane general would do. You don't gun for the strongest, you aim for the weaker point, just like you would aim for the weaker points on the tabletop. A simple fix is names in a hat picked at random or local rankings (score up everyone who wins - those who win the most against each other etc...)

What you have an issue with isn't his army at all; its his attitude whilst playing; his manners, his social skills and his general behaviour. He seems to have some awareness of this himself because you say he behaves differently around you. So in part he's aware of it, though chances are he currently sees it more as "its you" than an "its him" issue. And lets not kid there possibly is a little of you in this - he's clearly a power-gamer and your clearly more casual - those two groups often come to blows or minor social issues rise up more so when casual and more serious players play against each other.





But all that is getting away from the simple facts that
1) He's not your responsibility. He's his own man. If others ask you to talk to him, refuse. If they don't want to play him that is their call, you are not there to mediate between the others and him. Sure you brought him to the group, but he's been there long enough that he's not under your wing (as it were).

2) When you are in a position of authority (temp worker at the store) then he is your responsibility in so far as ensuring that he behaves himself. If he is out of line you deal with it directly, fairly and in the moment without any hangup. Same as you would deal with ANY other player.
IF the question of banning him is coming up from the store then that is NOT your choice. That is the Manager/Owners choice in the matter. You can, by all means, bring case for and against him to the owner, but its the manager/owners choice on who stays and who goes.
(ps I'm not saying this to try and give you a cop-out; its a simple reflection of the fact that you are a few hours a week temp-worker; its not your club/store to make such calls alone - any good retail club should be moderated like any good society and those in control should discuss and deal with problems themselves. Heck stalk to the store owner if its that much of an issue within the group).

3) As a friend be clear and honest with him. He will NOT like it (no one things they are TFG - no one likes being called out on it and very few really reflect or see it in themselves in the moment when being called out); he might even storm off. Be calm, don't raise your voice, don't insult or use analogies just be honest and straight with him. He's a douch when he's winning and he needs to calm down about the game. Heck as a friend you might offer to teach him to do better painting or greenstuff work or terrain - refocus his energy and enthusiasm into a more positive outlet.

4) Tough love is real - but its NOT about insulting abusing. It's about being firm, fair and clear in the moment not after or before. In many ways its like training a pet or animal; you don't beat or abuse them, you don't shout and scream. You lay down the law firmly when required and don't hold any grudge for the past.
By establishing fair and clear guidelines/boundaries for behaviour you give other people confidence in how to behave because they can see how they can and cannot behave. They learn what they are and are not allowed to do and - whilst there might be a period of change (contention) most should come around in the end.

Those that fail needed more work or,as others have suggested in the thread, potentially had more going on in their life in the background and their behaviour is a symptom of that (as a friend after you've tried clear boundaries and if its failed you might be outright clear and ask them if there are other stresses or problems going on - sometimes even just realising that and giving them and outlet can let them really let go of their behaviour).

I see what's going on here and one thing I note is that you are not asking your friend why he's acting like this. I can see that you both acknowledge the poor behavior and have turned this behavior into a "relationship minefield" of sorts, and this is a fissure that will lead to dishonesty and eventually a dissolution of the relationship. Maybe that's for the better, but if you have any inclination of reversing this course, something definitely has to change.

I'll advise that you change your interactions in the following way: Sit him down in some way with the intent of learning about why he acts the way he does. Don't judge/condemn his behavior and engage his mental defenses, just draw out some introspection through pointed questions about the underlying motivations. If you can draw out the true causes of the problem, then you can take steps to address the cause of the aberrant behavior and simultaneously repair the relationship.

This approach may not work the first time. Don't be dissuaded by this, sometimes you need to wear away the mental defenses over time, especially if your friend has not engaged in this kind of introspection before. Continue discussing the issue until you either find the true reasons and can discuss a lasting solution to the issue or you find closure in the fact that the issue is insoluble and leave the relationship behind. Either way, maintaining this zombie relationship and slowly growing the rift will bring much more pain than happiness in the long run.

If I'm reading the part about him advising new people on what to get and effectively tailoring their lists so he can beat them then I'd frankly cut the line right there if I was in your position. I may not like it when people whine about the list they just lost to being 'cheap' or 'unfluffy' but the moment you shark a newbie like that, you're basically stealing from them.

No patience for that gak at all.

If I were you, (and I'm stretching a bit here to be more reasonable, since he is your friend and all) I'd stop defending him. If people ask you to get him to ease up, tell them honestly that you've tried and are out of ideas, and if they need to complain to store management and they decide to ban him you'll enforce it professionally. I'd tell him that too, that those are the consequences he's flirting with and that you're done taking the hits that should be coming his way.

Hopefully that's enough to make him smarten up. If not, let him get banned from the store (maybe you can push to make it a temp ban) and hope that that is, at last, enough to get the message across. Hopefully if he values your friendship as much as you evidently do, it'll be able to weather that.

Pretty much the people so far are saying "he is responsible for himself".
The obligation as a friend is to point out the potential consequences for his actions, it is the least you can do.
I feel a certain obligation to protect the "innocent" from manipulative turkeys, so this friend would already be in trouble in my books.
The greater crime is to allow this friend to sully a hobby that people like/love and possibly turn away new players in a time where it is very easy to sit in front of a screen.

 Galas wrote:
So probably he is having some kind of problems in his personal life?

You say this, but today I spent a little time on the phone making some calls to some people I know here. We're working on sitting him down this weekend, away from the store. Just him. Because from what we gathered, we came up with sort of a conclusion.

According to all the guys I've talked to, this behavior started while I was away but primarily around the time his girlfriend started coming with him. I wasn't sure how long they'd been talking, apparently it's been a while longer than I previously thought. So, like someone else said- it's probably tied to his girlfriend.

Now, I'm not saying it's her fault. It isn't. She is a little cutie, and she's very sweet-natured. I can see why he'd be proud of her, and trying to make her proud... as well as showing out a bit around other guys. But I think we're going to tell him straightforward (and I'm actually doing a copypasta of this list for reference notes)

-You're good at the game, no one denies that
-You act like an obnoxious a-hole when you play 40k
-It's driving away new players, and veteran players are becoming annoyed
-Literally no one looks forward to seeing you at the table
-People are asking if you're in tournaments, and refusing to sign up if you're signed on
-People are complaining to me at our shop, and as your friend that puts me in a VERY difficult position
-It's affecting how people perceive me and hurting me socially
-The Private clubs have already stated they do not want you joining or coming over
-I already tried to talk to you, and you blew me off- as a friend you disrespected me
-You have publicly humiliated me with your behavior
-You do not act like my friend of seven years, you act like an actual idiot douchebag

This is your last and final warning. If you continue to behave this way:

-I will go to 'the boss' (shop owner) and tell him you need to be banned from playing 40k at the store
-Every single person here, and some others, will tell 'the boss' the same, and all the 'other bosses' (other shop owners) in town
-A lot of these guys are going to tell 'the bosses' that they will no longer be shopping at their store unless something is done about you
-You're gonna be banned from 40k in literally every place you can play 40k, unless you want to drive 2 hours away
-Even worse, some may ban you COMPLETELY

Get your act together or you're not gonna be playing 40k, you're just gonna be a proud owner of a bunch of books and models that collect dust.[i]

Relationship 101: Focusing on "You" in dealing with another person tends to put them defensive. You may as well be wagging your finger in his face whilst saying that.

Stay away from attacking his character, as it again causes his psyche to regress into defensive mode, and once you get someone defensive... the discussion cannot be moved forward.

For what it is worth, I would guide him to your original post. A lot of it sounded frustrated, but a bit of it also sounded sincere and concerned. You didn't rant hard against him as a person, and in fact went out of your way to highlight some of his good qualities in the process (out of fear of him reading your post I would imagine).

NEVER give ultimatums, also. Again, you're threatening him and making him go defensive, and you cannot make meaningful change to someone who is defensive... their mental imperative becomes to protect themselves.

Coach, suggest a few things he could try to do to make things better. Then, while he is working on these things, enable him to do better by trying to help him through those tense moments when he wants to relapse... a friendly jab to the memory to make him remember the conversation previously about not being "that guy".

Also, do NOT put it all on him. Interaction is two ways, and if you throw all of the expectation on him to change and you are not willing to move, fudge, or compromise during the process... he will abandon the endeavor. So as a good friend, you have to be there to help him notice his slipping behavior, as well as help guide him to a more amiable resolution.

He's not a soldier, you cannot give him an itemized list of deficiencies and demand that he fixes it or else consequences. He is a dynamic person with a long history of experiences shaping his perception.

Things can go on and on, just... be really careful about the finger-wagging and character-attacking. Just... talk. If you're friends, you will fight... he'll think on it (with any luck), realize you were trying to be supportive and cordial... and come back and apologize for being "that guy" and will/may want to do better. If he doesn't... he was always "that guy" and well, that's that.

Anyways, whatever Best of luck, you'll do right by your friend so long as you at least attempt to talk to him as such.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
He's not a soldier, you cannot give him an itemized list of deficiencies and demand that he fixes it or else consequences. He is a dynamic person with a long history of experiences shaping his perception.

Actually, this is where you're wrong.

He is.

But he's also both things.

I'm an ex-soldier, too, and trust me... even when you're in, coming at me like that was not good for anyone involved. It invokes a certain reaction that is not socially acceptable. You don't want to go there unless you're ready to fight him into shape

Edit: I guess the point I am trying to make is... don't treat him as such, even though he is

Short Answer:
Troll him into oblivion until he realises that it takes both parties to work together to have a fun game.

Long Answer:
With all your other players at your FLGS, the ones you say are backing you up etc., write the most annoying lists to fight and play him. Every time he comes for a game, gladly say, yes we'll play your 'Primary Army' and then take him for a ride. You spread the effort (struggling through these horrible games) with everyone else working against him, whilst he tires and begins to understand.

Now, he'll seek easier prey to go for, so you need to lock off the 'newbies'. Get the store manager or anyone, to specifically protect newbies/ cover them by playing with them so he can't.

This way you deprive him of easy prey and bog him down with a never-ending streak of slog matches. I would put money down that he'll start requesting people to change their armies/lists and that's when you all pounce - yes, we'll play nicely, if you try to play nicely too.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I'm an ex-soldier, too, and trust me... even when you're in, coming at me like that was not good for anyone involved. It invokes a certain reaction that is not socially acceptable. You don't want to go there unless you're ready to fight him into shape

Edit: I guess the point I am trying to make is... don't treat him as such, even though he is

Yeah, but at this point I'm afraid that 'talking to him and being encouraging' isn't going to work. We've had talks, and he feels he's doing nothing wrong and people are just being 'whiners and sore losers'.

It's also at the point where it's not just MY Ultimatum. It's now down to several people saying, "He has to knock this off or we're going to make sure he's banned". They're going to tell the store owners in the area that as long as he's allowed to play 40k, they'll not be doing business with them. The words 'petition signatures' have been thrown around. Some of these players spend quite a bit at the stores.

I'm being asked to step in, mostly because these other players care about me and I wanted to give him one more chance. They didn't.

And I understand why.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I'm an ex-soldier, too, and trust me... even when you're in, coming at me like that was not good for anyone involved. It invokes a certain reaction that is not socially acceptable. You don't want to go there unless you're ready to fight him into shape

Edit: I guess the point I am trying to make is... don't treat him as such, even though he is

Yeah, but at this point I'm afraid that 'talking to him and being encouraging' isn't going to work. We've had talks, and he feels he's doing nothing wrong and people are just being 'whiners and sore losers'.

It's also at the point where it's not just MY Ultimatum. It's now down to several people saying, "He has to knock this off or we're going to make sure he's banned". They're going to tell the store owners in the area that as long as he's allowed to play 40k, they'll not be doing business with them. The words 'petition signatures' have been thrown around. Some of these players spend quite a bit at the stores.

I'm being asked to step in, mostly because these other players care about me and I wanted to give him one more chance. They didn't.

And I understand why.

I realize this might sound like a silly question, but how do you expect he'll respond? It's a very direct list of factors and ultimatums, and I could see someone lashing out as a result.

I've dealt with good friends being problem players in the past (both in mini war gaming, competitive computer games & PnP games). And generally if something is triggering toxic behavior in someone it's just best to steer clear of that triggering factor.

Playing at being a shrink or plotting to humiliate him might solve your problem but with the likely event that you'll end up losing your buddy.

My suggestion is either:

1)Tell him that he has been putting his fun first with complete disregard of the other players and hope he listens. (Most people don't like critique like this)

or

2)Go narrative play and enjoy a good time with your friend in a relaxed environment instead. It's the competitive part that seems to be turning him toxic after all so it's an easy enough fix if you still want to game with him.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I realize this might sound like a silly question, but how do you expect he'll respond? It's a very direct list of factors and ultimatums, and I could see someone lashing out as a result.

At this point, dude... he's gonna react the way he's gonna react. We're getting him away from his girlfriend and around his friends- just us, the guys he's known the longest.

If he lashes out, I'm prepared to tell him to buzz off. We've tried to help him and this is his last chance. If he doesn't want it, he can spend the gas money and drive 2.5 hours to the stinky shops in the other city.

The truth is, we've had to remove people for less. We didn't put up with it from someone who was actually mentally ill, we shouldn't have to put up with it from him.


I'm gonna ask one of the Admins to nuke this in a little bit. I'm gonna ask if they'll erase it. I'm already more conflicted than I should be, and I think my current course of action is really all I've got left.

I'm gonna go ahead and thank all of you for offering your input. Some of us may not agree on everything but I'm honestly pleased with your support in this matter. It may not seem like it, but I've had to deal with some really scary things and some really difficult things in my life and this one is... actually harder than I thought it would be. Until it happens to you, I suppose.

Thanks all. May the Emperor's light shine on you.

1. Copy this original post into notepad.

2. Find and replace: "Primary Army" with "Imperial Guard"

3. Read as normal

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I realize this might sound like a silly question, but how do you expect he'll respond? It's a very direct list of factors and ultimatums, and I could see someone lashing out as a result.

At this point, dude... he's gonna react the way he's gonna react. We're getting him away from his girlfriend and around his friends- just us, the guys he's known the longest.

If he lashes out, I'm prepared to tell him to buzz off. We've tried to help him and this is his last chance. If he doesn't want it, he can spend the gas money and drive 2.5 hours to the stinky shops in the other city.

The truth is, we've had to remove people for less. We didn't put up with it from someone who was actually mentally ill, we shouldn't have to put up with it from him.


I'm gonna ask one of the Admins to nuke this in a little bit. I'm gonna ask if they'll erase it. I'm already more conflicted than I should be, and I think my current course of action is really all I've got left.

I'm gonna go ahead and thank all of you for offering your input. Some of us may not agree on everything but I'm honestly pleased with your support in this matter. It may not seem like it, but I've had to deal with some really scary things and some really difficult things in my life and this one is... actually harder than I thought it would be. Until it happens to you, I suppose.

Thanks all. May the Emperor's light shine on you.

Wish you luck, then, man. Dealing with this stuff is extremely hard and it sounds like you've put in way more effort than most people would in trying to make it better.

The only way to beat it is to become TFG. Assume your TFG dominance. Make him cower in fear, and never touch the game again. Problem solved.

You should have confronted him pretty from the beginning but instead you let it fester into this situation. I feel like this thread is to appease your conscious.

If this guy is bad enough that you've got people having discussions and signing petitions - then it's already gone too far and he should have gotten booted a long time ago.

I suspect that if it was just some random jerk not in the 'inner circle' through you, they would have gotten the boot already.

Hey OP, I feel for you.

Have you considered delivering the ultimatum outside of the actual club? I am a little worried if you do it at the club itself it is just going to add pressure to an already tense social setting and cause him to lash out.

Good luck on this one bro, let us all know how it goes.

OP, I'll take the side of your friend and try to give a different perspective. From what you've said, I don't think he's a bad guy at all, just very competitive. He gets a feel good boost from winning and being the best, and to be fair, who doesn't? That's not a problem - it's even to be respected.

It sounds like a large part of the issue is his desire to be recognised - his ego if you like (which we all have). He manifests this with what he likely sees as harmless banter and ribbing, yet without realising, it comes across as boasts and quite bad sportsmanship. No one respects that and it wears thin quickly.

I made the same mistake during a longterm competition at work. I knew I was good so I'd build it up to be a big thing and was sure to lay in wait with plenty of 'banter' for my defeated opponents. Eventually one such ribbed opponent responded to me in front of everyone, "Some people take it too seriously and take all the fun of of it." I'd like to say I took the message onboard and changed my ways at that point, but I didn't. My thoughts were more along the line of, "Oooh, he's got the hump because I'm better than him". I didn't understand why it ruined the fun or how I came across to others. It wasn't fun for them - of course it wasn't!

So how do you fix it? How did I fix it? Truth is I don't know. I think over time I saw others around me who were good at what they do but very grounded, respectful and sportsmanlike. I guess I suffered defeats and disappointments of my own over the years and learnt how support and words of encouragement were nicer to receive than gloating from others. I admired all of that, I noticed others did too, and I wanted to be more that way.

I'm not sure there is a quick fix for your friend. You can tell people truths and give them advice but it can be like water off a duck's back, especially when it comes to criticisms. Mostly I think we learn from our own experiences and mistakes. Perhaps have one last go at getting across to your friend exactly how he's making others feel, what he could do differently and how it would benefit everyone including him, otherwise the ban might be the best way for your group.

Don't call him a TFG.
Don't criticise his army or playstyle.
Take a deep breath and tell him that he is being a bully.
If he is truly a nice guy in all other areas then hearing that he is being a bully in the 40k circles should horrify him.

If it doesn't then give the store owner a photo of him to warn newbies about the 40k bully.
Tell the others to ignore his challenges and play around him.

Then tell him again "You're being a bully. The others don't mind losing, they don't mind you being 'the best' they don't like what you've become along with being the best"

Situation handled.

We sat the dude down at the Taco Cabana and told him he was being an a-hole, and looking down the barrel of a ban from 40k at all the shops, and perhaps total bans.

"I understand. I think it's best I take a break from it for a while, come back to it with a new attitude."

So it's gonna be better, I hope.

But he DID take the last tortilla, so I'm not sure I forgive him yet.

OK, so I read the original post and many of the replies.

As you work at the store, and feel an obligation, then you might consider assembling an 'army' of a million cultists for common use and just have anyone who plays him use that until he gets so bored and begins to understand that the community has had enuff.

What I am more interested in is why his ego is so fixed on his 40k performance. Especially now that he has this girl roped into the hobby, his sense of self-worth is likely even more deeply tied to 40k due to fear that if he fails at 40k then his chick will leave his sorry a$$. IFF you count him as a friend then you might owe it to him to branch out a bit, Refuse to even speak to him about 40k because your friendship is at stake. Tell him that he is not allowed to use his primary army at the store anymore, because it puts people off. Say that it is in the interest of the store and of the other players, that he needs to let off a bit and let people breathe. If he gets a challenge, then let him play that out at a different shop. When you see him around a 40k table at a tournament, avoid him. Tell him that this is to save the friendship. When you do hang out, do other things - exclusively. Never play 40k with him, again... well, until he and his chick get married, they have a kid, and he grows some perspective.

You are in a difficult position, if you honestly care about the guy, cuz you don't wanna tweak his already fragile sense of self-worth but instead you want to strengthen it so that he no longer feels so strongly about his 40k performance, and can understand that his behavior is a sign of personal weakness when he simply shouldn't feel that way if he had the respect for himself that you seem to have for him, instead.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Situation handled.

We sat the dude down at the Taco Cabana and told him he was being an a-hole, and looking down the barrel of a ban from 40k at all the shops, and perhaps total bans.

"I understand. I think it's best I take a break from it for a while, come back to it with a new attitude."

So it's gonna be better, I hope.

But he DID take the last tortilla, so I'm not sure I forgive him yet.

OOps, Guess I posted a bit late.
Yup.
But dude took the last tortilla?
Dammmmm....
Are you sure that he is your friend?
I mean, I am assuming that you paid.

I'm glad to finally see a story of this nature have a good resolution.

Interesting situation and I'm glad it's settled. That is if it's settled.

Care to report back when his break is over? I wish all the best to you, him, and your community.

Glad it sounds like you found an equitable solution. I've had a couple of similar experiences that were just as dumbfounding, if not quite as complex:

One was my close friend's brother playing softball. In any other competition or matter outside of sports he was the most gracious guy you could imagine. On the softball field he became some half-cocked big-leaguer in his own mind and eventually caused the fracturing of that team of close friends.

Another case was this sweet gal I dated. Considerate in all things...unless playing a certain cooperative video game. As she showed me the tricks of her game she'd quickly grow angry that I was 'stealing' all the upgrades and deliberately undermining her efforts! Hell, I barely even grasped the game and just played because she kept insisting. After several attempts to ease her ire I finally had to just quit playing. Something weird and very specific was affecting her judgement and even she acknowledged it was odd.

Unfortunately I was never able to resolve either of my examples except by time and other events taking priority. It looks like you may have better luck in your case, difficult though it may be.

I read the whole thing.

Do you have issues with conflict?

Now that you have a resolution: This whole process you had in place is so passive-aggressive that perhaps it's time to reflect; particularly with that list/ petition...

Be careful that you do not become the monster you are trying to be rid of, as that will also impact your community.

Glad to see it was resolved in a good way, most of luck for when he returns.

Interesting thread, and it's made me think a little about my attitude as well.

I am currently playing rather a lot of a certain co-operative PC game (hint: the pan is god, chicken tastes good). I have a couple of groups of friends I play with, of which half are 'very good' semi-pro quality, and the rest casual.

Amongst the casual is an old friend of mine. He's not a bad gamer at all, but he's very new to the game and hasn't read up on basic squad communication and tactics. He's also prone to comment during spectating my game after being killed. At one point I had to ask him to be quiet, as he wasn't helping... if you've admitted you find it hard to know where the shots are coming from, why are you questioning the instincts of a player who's been playing at least 5x the hours you have, with substantial more success?...

Not to mention the constant stream of inane game-state reporting, or negativity as soon as he's downed, or whining about lack of equipment despite me repeatedly telling him POINTY END FORWARDS, PRESS FIRE! >_<

We've clashed a couple of times now, because it's a high-pressure game and you don't really have time to carefully articulate something, more like barking orders down the mic and hoping they actually listen... I've always apologised afterwards and explained my reasoning, so we're not going to fall out over it, but it has highlighted my competitive streak.

In my defence - when playing with more advanced/accomplished players, I always capitulate to their decisions. I think my friend just doesn't see the game the same way I do. When playing alongside him, I need to consider that.

I read the OP and a lot of good advice and some not so good replies.

Please report back later and let us no the lasting results of your intervention.

I hope the guy can sort himself out.

(He plays eldar for sure)

This is a really interesting post and brings up some very varying emotions.

If you think what I would do... I would stop playing 40k with him, but I would also stop engaging or complaining about him when he does win and then gloat about it (or lose and complain). Be honest with him too and say things like "I don't want to play with you as it's not enjoyable", or that you have no comment on something.
Perversely he is getting rewarded for his actions... he either wins or gets the weird pleasure of complaining about it (which we all get sometimes). He is also getting reactions from people when he is obnoxious and that reaction continues to fuel his outbursts.

It'll work itself out when no-one plays with him on their own, and he only has "new" people to destroy. IF he continues to do that and turns new people away from tournaments and shops, he will eventually get banned, but it will be his own action and not one you have instigated.

You can still be friends with him, and play other games with him, but just don't engage with him when he's being a prize cock. It sounds like it's causing you more worry and trouble for caring, so all you can do is remove yourself.

 Fueli wrote:
Care to report back when his break is over? I wish all the best to you, him, and your community.

Report:

The dude migrated over to do an RPG group with a few other guys. It didn't go so well, he got a little sulky when XP was handed out, and was pushing the DM to give him the gear and such he wanted. I'm not a part of this, I don't do fantasy RPG's. The DM basically told him to grab his dice and GTFO. I was a little baffled hearing this- as I said, he's not this way with other games.

Which apparently caused him to re-evaluate the way he plays games.

He called me up and asked if I wanted to buy some stuff from him, I declined, but I did go over and talk to him under the guise of 'taking pictures so we can put the stuff on eBay'. I sat down with him and sorted through some stuff, and he said to me: "Maybe I was doing good with my army and let it get to my head." He talked to me about a large group of dudes that were here in the local area years before I moved here- these guys were apparently WAAC jerks that behaved the same way, if not worse. He said, "I hated how they acted and when I started winning, I just kinda felt like it was 'my turn' to relish it, I guess. But I was acting like those dudes."

So he and I had a bit of a talk about his army. I'm no master of the game at all, but I pretty much showed him how it was more about what he was playing than his own skillset. He agreed, especially since most people in our area play fun, fluffy armies. He expressed an interest in Horus Heresy, he has the books and all- so I told him to come over for a game and do a demo for it. He did this, and it turned out rather well (we finally sold those boxed sets that weren't moving, and I finally put in my big order to Forge World). His ban was lifted on good conduct, but is still 'probationary'- so he's moved to using other armies and having fun games. He's doing good, he just needed his ego checked.

That, and he sent his girlfriend packing for reasons unknown to me...

OLDSCL wrote:
Do you have issues with conflict?

Nope. I have issues with people who don't listen, or simply disregard what I say. I am also not comfortable just being the ONE guy to deal with something when everyone else cowers under the table.

OLDSCL wrote:
This whole process you had in place is so passive-aggressive that perhaps it's time to reflect; particularly with that list/ petition...

Be careful that you do not become the monster you are trying to be rid of, as that will also impact your community.

I didn't do the petition. As an employee at the store, that would get me fired. This was from other members of the community. Keep in mind that the 'repercussions' of the petition were that they'd stop coming to the store where I part-time. I'm not sure how this would give you the idea I had anything to do with it.

I am glad to hear he realized what he was doing finally.

You mention his gf got the boot, I have seen many people in life change drastically when personal stuff is happening with their significant other. It can be hard, and it could be he felt he was "losing" in life so was looking for a place to vent his frustration with out realizing it. Either way now that he has had his wakeup call I am glad it's working out.

Gl with everything.

He’s good at the game with his ‘Primary Army’. And I mean, really good… or maybe it’s just his army that’s good. Very few people have beaten him since he got the hang of it. But as good as he is at winning, he’s TERRIBLE at losing. The first sign of defeat, and he concedes the game. Even worse, he’ll sit and say afterward “I think he was fudging rolls”, “I’m pretty sure he was over points”, or “I said I wanted a casual game, that was a tournament list he put down”. He’s never lost ‘fair and square’, according to him.

Referee his games. Have both players confirm that they are playing a competitive game. Confirm both lists.

And then point out things he did wrong and say, "Well when you moved the unit back was more damaging than him rolling a couple extra 6s". Just keep driving home his mistakes in a polite way.

And then sucker punch him and take his army.

EDIT: crap I missed the party.

let me wager a guess as to his army: ulramarines and girlyman, bringing the big G with him to every game. my course of action would be a little different. I'd tailor a list to annihilate him, completely dust him off the table the entire time acting the way he does when playing (mirror image) then at the end ask him if it was a fun experience for him? did he enjoy it? was he having fun with his models? if he says no to any/all of the above he now knows what it's like to play against him.

Really glad to hear it went well! That was very adult of him to own up to what he did wrong. Good luck in the future!

I would just say, "Hey man, I cant play against you anymore. You're too intense about this and I just want to have some casual fun. Lets go do something else. Wanna see a movie?"

You let him know your issue but also let him know its not something that should mess up your friendship. If he flips on you that sucks but you did everything you could to be magnanimous about it.

Basicly do what you can to keep the friendship but dont play him anymore. That way sure he may keep doing what he's been doing but its not your problem anymore. His other opponents will probably start doing the same and he'll ether change or he wont. Either way you've done all you can.

Hope that helps.

 supreme overlord wrote:
let me wager a guess as to his army: ulramarines and girlyman, bringing the big G with him to every game.

No way. This whole thing screams "eldar / taudar" player.

 supreme overlord wrote:
let me wager a guess as to his army: ulramarines and girlyman, bringing the big G with him to every game. my course of action would be a little different. I'd tailor a list to annihilate him, completely dust him off the table the entire time acting the way he does when playing (mirror image) then at the end ask him if it was a fun experience for him? did he enjoy it? was he having fun with his models? if he says no to any/all of the above he now knows what it's like to play against him.

Sounds like you have the same ego problems as the guy in the discussion to be honest. You're boiling big social problems down to just winning and losing, and also tying emotional responses to the results of a wargame. Or, in other words, "look at this nice fire. The best solution to beat it is MOAR FIER."

This whole thread is weird. I see no reason to trust the OP. He comes across as extremely high and mighty.

And yet, he somehow manged to solve his problem.

So his friend is back to war gaming, he is being less of a dick to other and they are still friends.

Major victory?

 Primark G wrote:
This whole thread is weird. I see no reason to trust the OP. He comes across as extremely high and mighty.

Pot, this is kettle. I say again, pot- this is kettle. Am I copying your last correctly?

 Primark G wrote:
You should have confronted him pretty from the beginning but instead you let it fester into this situation. I feel like this thread is to appease your conscious.

For your reference, pot- this was directed at kettle previously and I'm wanting confirmation. How copy, over?

 Jidmah wrote:
And yet, he somehow manged to solve his problem.

So his friend is back to war gaming, he is being less of a dick to other and they are still friends.

Major victory?

Yes. I think it just took some time, and I also think he was having some issues with his lady that had an affect on his attitude. I can honestly say, I've been in a relationship where certain things were going on behind the scenes with me and the gal, and it made my ego bruised just a bit.

We're going to REALLY need everyone - and I do mean EVERYONE - to follow RULE #1 in this thread.

(And yes, everywhere on Dakka Dakka.)

Hopefully that's clear enough, and no one will have to be warned or suspended going forward?

 Marmatag wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:
let me wager a guess as to his army: ulramarines and girlyman, bringing the big G with him to every game. my course of action would be a little different. I'd tailor a list to annihilate him, completely dust him off the table the entire time acting the way he does when playing (mirror image) then at the end ask him if it was a fun experience for him? did he enjoy it? was he having fun with his models? if he says no to any/all of the above he now knows what it's like to play against him.

Sounds like you have the same ego problems as the guy in the discussion to be honest. You're boiling big social problems down to just winning and losing, and also tying emotional responses to the results of a wargame. Or, in other words, "look at this nice fire. The best solution to beat it is MOAR FIER."

I mean, sometimes you use a second, controlled fire to deny oxygen to a worse fire.

 Alpharius wrote:

(And yes, everywhere on Dakka Dakka.)

I heard there's a secret thread on Dakka Dakka where you can be a jerk to everyone, post pictures of your belly, and share the dankest of memes.

Confirm or Deny?

But to your point, I'm doing my absolute best. Trying to come off 'firm', but not so much like a snarky jerk.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
If I'm reading the part about him advising new people on what to get and effectively tailoring their lists so he can beat them then I'd frankly cut the line right there if I was in your position. I may not like it when people whine about the list they just lost to being 'cheap' or 'unfluffy' but the moment you shark a newbie like that, you're basically stealing from them.

No patience for that gak at all.

This!

Super glad to hear this was resolved in the way it was. Congratulations mate!

 Wibe wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
If I'm reading the part about him advising new people on what to get and effectively tailoring their lists so he can beat them then I'd frankly cut the line right there if I was in your position. I may not like it when people whine about the list they just lost to being 'cheap' or 'unfluffy' but the moment you shark a newbie like that, you're basically stealing from them.
No patience for that gak at all.

This!

This is behavior that is VERY hard to forgive.
It is taking advantage in the worst possible way.
I am happy the guy throttled back a bit but I am afraid that as the backlash has ended he will get "comfortable" and be back to his old tricks.
I would not mind being wrong.

Seems to me that this issue is in the process of fixing itself. If he keeps up this dickery he won't be welcome in a lot of the places he can do the most damage. Like that escalation he screwed up. Bet the organizer knows to keep him well clear of the next one. Eventually, he won't have anyone to play with and won't be welcome to events. At that point, he either quits or finds a similarly toxic group of castouts he can be an A-hole with. Either way, he's out of your hair. Frankly, I wouldn't have even bothered to try to change his behavior. Unsolicited advice or criticism almost never does anything but make people defensive.

Glad to hear things are getting better with your friend.

I didn't want to read through all 5 pages, so can anyone tell me what the "Primary Army" was?

Rocmistro wrote:
I didn't want to read through all 5 pages, so can anyone tell me what the "Primary Army" was?

Squats + Sisters of Battle w/ allied detachment of Pariahs

Rocmistro wrote:
I didn't want to read through all 5 pages, so can anyone tell me what the "Primary Army" was?

He changed to one of the most powerful armies last edition, and it is still performing really well in this one... No one knows what it is.. Its Eldar.

I'm very glad to hear this had a good resolution.
My girlfriend is going through some parallels to this with one of her friends right now. I hope her situation gets resolved as cleanly.