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Sometimes friendships end.

Move on.

zerosignal wrote:
Sometimes friendships end.

Move on.

I think the issue I have isn't with losing the friend. I've already come to terms with that being a possibility one way or the other. Either I'm going to get fed up and take a heavy flamer to the bridge, or trying to help the guy see his problem is going to make him burn the bridge himself.

The problem is more about how to get him to knock it off in the community. I don't like seeing a gamer go, the way he does other games... he's a great person to play with. But his attitude in the 40k Community is pretty toxic...

... and I suppose it's worth saying that my fear is if he doesn't stop it before summer. That's when we get a lot more new players, many of them teenagers.

I do NOT want a bunch of teens either chased away from the hobby, or... behaving the same way. Especially since we've had quite a few of the toxic brats in the past that needed to be toned down... and some of them have rich and influential daddies.

I skimmed OP, have you tried talking to him about it? And if it is your shop, explain that if he continues with it, he won't be allowed to play there any more.

I came to the conclusion that while I love hanging out with this guy and doing a lot of things with him, I absolutely hate his guts when he gets to the 40k tables. He’s not my friend then, he’s some obnoxious tool that needs to be taken down a few pegs and maybe slapped in the mouth for good measure. The weird part is, he’s not like this when he does other games- he’s a friendly, fun, and chill player for everything but 40k. He’s actually the most decent dude you’ll ever meet, until he goes to play 40k- and then I honestly see a completely different person, and I hate him.

Simply avoid him with 40k then.
If he really is as sound as you say, you gain nothing by dumping him outright. At best you save some stress around the table, at worst you lose a good friend.

Hes potentially acting out with 40k from a position of power (good army, good player, playing versus weaker players, trying to be alpha male at the game table). Lots of people like that and not just in gaming. Maybe other parts of his life suck and thats his release.

@ OP:
The most important part of your post was basically this statement:

"My friend is mentally ill."

You could try to convince him to seek professional help. He embarasses himself in front of everybody on a regular basis and that is not fun for anyone around him. Trying to "cure" him by beating the snot out of him with some uber competitve lists won´t solve the problem at all. His problems stem probably from some drastic bad experiences. Has he lost his job? Did a relative die? Something along these lines. If he is unwilling to change or seek professional help, you are better off by keeping a distance to him to keep your own mental health intact. The fact that you wrote such an elaborate post is testament to the notion that you feel already deeply disturbed and that is not good for own well being in the long run.

Hope that helps.

I honestly think you should stay out of it and let the rest of the community have the intervention with him and ban him from playing where they (and especially the newbies) play. That way you keep the friend and get rid of the toxicity. If he asks about it just be frank with him without going overboard on the "I told you so's".

Your a guy just tell him. If he gets pissy tell him hes being a baby and man up.

We are capable of taking criticsm. Wont be the first or last time he has taken some.

Have a guy in our group who gets really pissed at dice rolls. We constantly tease him and put signs up were his dice have dented the walls. He knows he struggles and 90% of the time hes great to play.

Just talk. We are all adults. If he cant take a lil intervention hes going to have a hard life.

So, I read everything.

I was/am in a similar situation, though my friend was a lot less toxic than yours.

We used to play with two separate groups for P&P, MtG and WH40k and I know (today) that he was having a lot of personal issues at some point in the past when he started getting toxic in all of our games.

He started to min/max and exploit loopholes in one P&P group, trying to break the story and gaining unfair advantages over other players on multiple occurrences.
The group where he was the GM he started bullying the players and severely punishing anyone who was as much as showing signs of the very same things he was doing in the other round. One exploded into to a player getting up and leaving to be never seen again - not even retrieving to get his cell phone he left behind.
In the other group I tried to find a compromise between his power gaming and role play, but he denied exploiting and min/maxing and claimed it was just his way of doing RP. When I talked him into a corner, instead of admitting what he was doing, he instead left that group and threated to kick me out of the other. Luckily that didn't happen, but on that day some of the players from that group have cut their ties with him for good.

In MtG he would verbally attack or ridicule people for slow play if they were taking a little longer to think, mispronounced cards or did bad plays, start fights when players were not playing optimized decks and get angry when people would stay defensive or attacked him instead of attacking what he thought was an obvious threat on the table to him.
If he was on a losing streak this behavior would intensify until I would throw a game in his favor - considering that we used to play 4+ player FFAs, losing streaks of four or more games were quite common.
When i would disagree with his opinion on some cards, he would feel attacked personally and retaliate.
I know at least three players left our MtG gaming group during this time.

40k wasn't any better: list tailoring, curb-stomping new and fluff players, gloating victories, bitter losses, constantly "misremembering" rules, remote controlling his less experienced allies, arranging team games in his favor and more. I guess all the people on this thread can imagine what I'm talking about.

All of these problems got worse by magnitudes when either a player he was "mentoring" was present, or a woman (confirming what edwardmyst said).

In the end, I stopped playing 40k with him, as did pretty much everyone else. During 7th he kept showing off his new jetbike army, but I don't think he got any games with them.
I didn't want to risk another fight like we had in our P&P group because I didn't want to lose a long-time friend, so tried to arrange 40k games in secret or found excuses for games he was attending. So basically I chickened out.
I kept playing MtG with him and I'm still in the group where he is the GM. Games of magic don't take hours and throwing a game a night by playing some fun deck is not the worst thing to do. However, our MtG group never recovered from losing half our players and it has been disbanded twice since then.

When I returned to 40k because of 8th edition, I kept trying to dodge playing him, but one of our mutual friends kept inviting us both to games so we ended up playing as team and actually had a good time.
He still shows his bad behavior from time to time, but I try to immediately react to it to show him that I'm not willing to tolerate it anymore and he seems to be getting the message.

In the end, we are no longer best friends, but at the very least we stayed friends. I don't feel like it's the best solution, but it's not the worst either.

People are different, so I'm not sure how to handle your friend. My suggestion would be to tell him that you have no interest of playing Wh40k with him anymore, and offer to play a different game instead.
This way you show him that you are still willing to spend time with him, but that you don't like how he acts while playing 40k. When he wants to know the reasons, answer truthfully. I wasn't brave enough to tell my friend that he is being TFG.
If he doesn't... I guess, welcome to the club.

It's not worth losing a friend over. Just don't play 40K with him.

Just talk to him already.

In roleplay we have many people that come to it as a scapegoat to their day to day problems.
People that always want to win (Better if in the way they humilliate others, etc...), that goes behind female player-characters and NPC's like he has taken half a dozen viagras.

I remember a female roleplayer in my online community that was basically behind any kind of young-male she could encounter, trying to seduce them both in the roleplay and out of the roleplay. After she leaved the community I learne she was a single mom in his thirties, and had a very ugly divorce, and was left with a little girl.

Now, after saying all of this... theres people that are just jerks. I have known a bunch of those. They have 0 problems, and they don't have any kind of problem managing their feelings. They are just flat out jerks. But as you describe your friend, he doesn't sound has a jerk. So probably he is having some kind of problems in his personal life?

OP: Your difficulty to have an honest discussion with this person and not get a behavior change already points to there being a big problem that may not be fixable.
Okay, friendship is one thing, income and place of business is another thing.

I had a "friend" that turned out being a pretty hard-core narcissist.
Nicest person you would ever meet until they figure they "got you" in some kind of dependent relationship.

The guy bringing his own flunkies to prop-up his gaming score is a fine example of this.
From a "play to win" viewpoint it is "brilliant".

You know what is a fine easy test to identify them?
They are the only people that are NEVER wrong (that they will to admit to except as a joke).
Their loss or failure is always someone else's fault.
But basking in the light of success is gold to them.

If the guy treats anyone badly, take him up on it right away: do not allow him to have a "free-pass" on social graces.

Personally, I made a point of tooling up my own army to be VERY competitive and stomped my "buddy's" A-list / Primary list.
Oh the carrying on... you may want to try it out because people like this are pretty lazy and do not tweak their list until beaten... repeatedly.
They get EXTRA angry when you change your configuration to something different that is equally competitive.
Make sure also you do not reveal your army until both you and him have your army lists out (these folk tend to have 2-3 lists tailor made for horde vs armor... etc).

I suspect your buddy always was "that guy" and he just made a point of hiding it until he felt comfortable to act like himself.
You may very well be missing the friend that was never there, a fabrication.

If he is acting badly, tell him his actions are a negative impact on your business and please play nice.
As soon as he fails to try after a day or two... turf him to the street.
A real friend will have true respect for your income.

I've not gone through it all in detail yet, but two key things to keep in mind

1) Many people behave as badly as they can get away with and as well as the society they are in demands of them. If your friends behaviour is as such then that means your group is tolerating such behaviour in order for it to be allowed to happen

2) Sometimes (esp when your in a position of power such as the organiser or shop owner/worker) you have to take a hard line to get your point across. It can feel really mean and nasty, but sometimes you've just got to for the betterment of the group. Sometimes trying to keep everyone happy has the opposite effect as you fail to take a firm hand with those who need it - which can quickly result in it annoying many others (those disgruntled with the behaviour and seeing no challenge from those in power will start to get annoyed with the group in general and might well break away to a "group that respects people" and such).

ps a firm hand doesn't mean that you have to be insulting, violent, abrasive in tone, shouting or banning - it means laying down the rules and requirements firmly

@Overread: Good point to make on being tough: When I was a teenager working for my dad at his business. He told me I had to work harder than everyone there because they knew I was the boss's son. I figured that was a good point.

Let the friend know that you will be extra strict with him because people know you are friends so that is how it will go and be ready. He was probably expecting that would be a perk not a detriment in the gaming group.

 Galas wrote:
Now, after saying all of this... theres people that are just jerks. I have known a bunch of those. They have 0 problems, and they don't have any kind of problem managing their feelings. They are just flat out jerks. But as you describe your friend, he doesn't sound has a jerk. So probably he is having some kind of problems in his personal life?

Second this for context - it sounds like these behaviors are (relatively) new. Has he had some issues in life that have come up recently? Was this always him and it just never had a vehicle to get expressed? I think that would dictate how one goes about addressing it. That being said, it sounds like he knows he's behaving poorly (or he wouldn't hide it around you), so he might not be that far gone.

"Did you get a new model or squad that you’re proud of and think will do well? He’ll immediately challenge you, and make it a point to take that model or squad out of the game as quickly as possible. "

This is actually a pretty known psychological tactic. I put it into use all the time though I dont brag about it because once it's known to that opponent, it'll never work again. If they are showing off a new model or are proud of something in their army, kill it fast. Mentally demoralizing and makes them make mistakes.

 Talizvar wrote:

Let the friend know that you will be extra strict with him because people know you are friends so that is how it will go and be ready. He was probably expecting that would be a perk not a detriment in the gaming group.

I wouldn't treat him any different to any other member of the group. Treat them all equal; the only reason this gamer has come up is because his behaviour appears to be more detrimental than the others. You aren't trying to single him out to behave differently to everyone else, you want the same standard from him as from everyone else.

If you've spoken to him about this, multiple times, and he continues to stay this way, then that's on him. You are not going to change him in the slightest.

Your friends are not the people who are hard to talk to. When my friend smells bad I tell him to take a fething shower. Because unlike everyone else he can count on me telling him when hes got a problem. He knows I am his friend. He knows I am telling him because he might not be aware that he smells bad and I am helping him out. Most strangers would say nothing and just talk behind his back. Because I am his friend I am strait forward and say it to his face.

If your friend is being a gakky player or making the game unfun he should be counting on his friends to let him know and set him strait because he cannot count on strangers to do the same.

So you told your friend he stinks and then he doesn't believe it? His musk is the best thing in the world? feth that guy for not listening.

The Geek Social Fallacies may be relevant reading: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

Few further thoughts upon reading more

"Getting people together to make sure everyone knows it's a poor idea to play with him. I'd be afraid that this would be irreversible."

Don't. Either straight up ban him from the community or don't, never play the "oh don't play with him/her" game behind someone's back. You either evict someone from a group clearly or don't, its a nastier game to let them keep turning up, but to have agreed with everyone to ignore them.

Note if everyone, on their own, decides not to play that person that is different; its the group organised ignoring that is the issue.



Secondly I would also ignore all concerns/thoughts regarding the "power" of his army. 40K is about building armies and playing them well and building a good army is part of that process - if he's got a good army that statistically is strong that's great - part of the game - nothing wrong there.

Likewise when you had the league games and he chose weaker opponents; well honestly if you're out to win then that's what any sane general would do. You don't gun for the strongest, you aim for the weaker point, just like you would aim for the weaker points on the tabletop. A simple fix is names in a hat picked at random or local rankings (score up everyone who wins - those who win the most against each other etc...)

What you have an issue with isn't his army at all; its his attitude whilst playing; his manners, his social skills and his general behaviour. He seems to have some awareness of this himself because you say he behaves differently around you. So in part he's aware of it, though chances are he currently sees it more as "its you" than an "its him" issue. And lets not kid there possibly is a little of you in this - he's clearly a power-gamer and your clearly more casual - those two groups often come to blows or minor social issues rise up more so when casual and more serious players play against each other.





But all that is getting away from the simple facts that
1) He's not your responsibility. He's his own man. If others ask you to talk to him, refuse. If they don't want to play him that is their call, you are not there to mediate between the others and him. Sure you brought him to the group, but he's been there long enough that he's not under your wing (as it were).

2) When you are in a position of authority (temp worker at the store) then he is your responsibility in so far as ensuring that he behaves himself. If he is out of line you deal with it directly, fairly and in the moment without any hangup. Same as you would deal with ANY other player.
IF the question of banning him is coming up from the store then that is NOT your choice. That is the Manager/Owners choice in the matter. You can, by all means, bring case for and against him to the owner, but its the manager/owners choice on who stays and who goes.
(ps I'm not saying this to try and give you a cop-out; its a simple reflection of the fact that you are a few hours a week temp-worker; its not your club/store to make such calls alone - any good retail club should be moderated like any good society and those in control should discuss and deal with problems themselves. Heck stalk to the store owner if its that much of an issue within the group).

3) As a friend be clear and honest with him. He will NOT like it (no one things they are TFG - no one likes being called out on it and very few really reflect or see it in themselves in the moment when being called out); he might even storm off. Be calm, don't raise your voice, don't insult or use analogies just be honest and straight with him. He's a douch when he's winning and he needs to calm down about the game. Heck as a friend you might offer to teach him to do better painting or greenstuff work or terrain - refocus his energy and enthusiasm into a more positive outlet.

4) Tough love is real - but its NOT about insulting abusing. It's about being firm, fair and clear in the moment not after or before. In many ways its like training a pet or animal; you don't beat or abuse them, you don't shout and scream. You lay down the law firmly when required and don't hold any grudge for the past.
By establishing fair and clear guidelines/boundaries for behaviour you give other people confidence in how to behave because they can see how they can and cannot behave. They learn what they are and are not allowed to do and - whilst there might be a period of change (contention) most should come around in the end.

Those that fail needed more work or,as others have suggested in the thread, potentially had more going on in their life in the background and their behaviour is a symptom of that (as a friend after you've tried clear boundaries and if its failed you might be outright clear and ask them if there are other stresses or problems going on - sometimes even just realising that and giving them and outlet can let them really let go of their behaviour).

I see what's going on here and one thing I note is that you are not asking your friend why he's acting like this. I can see that you both acknowledge the poor behavior and have turned this behavior into a "relationship minefield" of sorts, and this is a fissure that will lead to dishonesty and eventually a dissolution of the relationship. Maybe that's for the better, but if you have any inclination of reversing this course, something definitely has to change.

I'll advise that you change your interactions in the following way: Sit him down in some way with the intent of learning about why he acts the way he does. Don't judge/condemn his behavior and engage his mental defenses, just draw out some introspection through pointed questions about the underlying motivations. If you can draw out the true causes of the problem, then you can take steps to address the cause of the aberrant behavior and simultaneously repair the relationship.

This approach may not work the first time. Don't be dissuaded by this, sometimes you need to wear away the mental defenses over time, especially if your friend has not engaged in this kind of introspection before. Continue discussing the issue until you either find the true reasons and can discuss a lasting solution to the issue or you find closure in the fact that the issue is insoluble and leave the relationship behind. Either way, maintaining this zombie relationship and slowly growing the rift will bring much more pain than happiness in the long run.

If I'm reading the part about him advising new people on what to get and effectively tailoring their lists so he can beat them then I'd frankly cut the line right there if I was in your position. I may not like it when people whine about the list they just lost to being 'cheap' or 'unfluffy' but the moment you shark a newbie like that, you're basically stealing from them.

No patience for that gak at all.

If I were you, (and I'm stretching a bit here to be more reasonable, since he is your friend and all) I'd stop defending him. If people ask you to get him to ease up, tell them honestly that you've tried and are out of ideas, and if they need to complain to store management and they decide to ban him you'll enforce it professionally. I'd tell him that too, that those are the consequences he's flirting with and that you're done taking the hits that should be coming his way.

Hopefully that's enough to make him smarten up. If not, let him get banned from the store (maybe you can push to make it a temp ban) and hope that that is, at last, enough to get the message across. Hopefully if he values your friendship as much as you evidently do, it'll be able to weather that.

Pretty much the people so far are saying "he is responsible for himself".
The obligation as a friend is to point out the potential consequences for his actions, it is the least you can do.
I feel a certain obligation to protect the "innocent" from manipulative turkeys, so this friend would already be in trouble in my books.
The greater crime is to allow this friend to sully a hobby that people like/love and possibly turn away new players in a time where it is very easy to sit in front of a screen.

 Galas wrote:
So probably he is having some kind of problems in his personal life?

You say this, but today I spent a little time on the phone making some calls to some people I know here. We're working on sitting him down this weekend, away from the store. Just him. Because from what we gathered, we came up with sort of a conclusion.

According to all the guys I've talked to, this behavior started while I was away but primarily around the time his girlfriend started coming with him. I wasn't sure how long they'd been talking, apparently it's been a while longer than I previously thought. So, like someone else said- it's probably tied to his girlfriend.

Now, I'm not saying it's her fault. It isn't. She is a little cutie, and she's very sweet-natured. I can see why he'd be proud of her, and trying to make her proud... as well as showing out a bit around other guys. But I think we're going to tell him straightforward (and I'm actually doing a copypasta of this list for reference notes)

-You're good at the game, no one denies that
-You act like an obnoxious a-hole when you play 40k
-It's driving away new players, and veteran players are becoming annoyed
-Literally no one looks forward to seeing you at the table
-People are asking if you're in tournaments, and refusing to sign up if you're signed on
-People are complaining to me at our shop, and as your friend that puts me in a VERY difficult position
-It's affecting how people perceive me and hurting me socially
-The Private clubs have already stated they do not want you joining or coming over
-I already tried to talk to you, and you blew me off- as a friend you disrespected me
-You have publicly humiliated me with your behavior
-You do not act like my friend of seven years, you act like an actual idiot douchebag

This is your last and final warning. If you continue to behave this way:

-I will go to 'the boss' (shop owner) and tell him you need to be banned from playing 40k at the store
-Every single person here, and some others, will tell 'the boss' the same, and all the 'other bosses' (other shop owners) in town
-A lot of these guys are going to tell 'the bosses' that they will no longer be shopping at their store unless something is done about you
-You're gonna be banned from 40k in literally every place you can play 40k, unless you want to drive 2 hours away
-Even worse, some may ban you COMPLETELY

Get your act together or you're not gonna be playing 40k, you're just gonna be a proud owner of a bunch of books and models that collect dust.[i]

Relationship 101: Focusing on "You" in dealing with another person tends to put them defensive. You may as well be wagging your finger in his face whilst saying that.

Stay away from attacking his character, as it again causes his psyche to regress into defensive mode, and once you get someone defensive... the discussion cannot be moved forward.

For what it is worth, I would guide him to your original post. A lot of it sounded frustrated, but a bit of it also sounded sincere and concerned. You didn't rant hard against him as a person, and in fact went out of your way to highlight some of his good qualities in the process (out of fear of him reading your post I would imagine).

NEVER give ultimatums, also. Again, you're threatening him and making him go defensive, and you cannot make meaningful change to someone who is defensive... their mental imperative becomes to protect themselves.

Coach, suggest a few things he could try to do to make things better. Then, while he is working on these things, enable him to do better by trying to help him through those tense moments when he wants to relapse... a friendly jab to the memory to make him remember the conversation previously about not being "that guy".

Also, do NOT put it all on him. Interaction is two ways, and if you throw all of the expectation on him to change and you are not willing to move, fudge, or compromise during the process... he will abandon the endeavor. So as a good friend, you have to be there to help him notice his slipping behavior, as well as help guide him to a more amiable resolution.

He's not a soldier, you cannot give him an itemized list of deficiencies and demand that he fixes it or else consequences. He is a dynamic person with a long history of experiences shaping his perception.

Things can go on and on, just... be really careful about the finger-wagging and character-attacking. Just... talk. If you're friends, you will fight... he'll think on it (with any luck), realize you were trying to be supportive and cordial... and come back and apologize for being "that guy" and will/may want to do better. If he doesn't... he was always "that guy" and well, that's that.

Anyways, whatever Best of luck, you'll do right by your friend so long as you at least attempt to talk to him as such.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
He's not a soldier, you cannot give him an itemized list of deficiencies and demand that he fixes it or else consequences. He is a dynamic person with a long history of experiences shaping his perception.

Actually, this is where you're wrong.

He is.

But he's also both things.

I'm an ex-soldier, too, and trust me... even when you're in, coming at me like that was not good for anyone involved. It invokes a certain reaction that is not socially acceptable. You don't want to go there unless you're ready to fight him into shape

Edit: I guess the point I am trying to make is... don't treat him as such, even though he is

Short Answer:
Troll him into oblivion until he realises that it takes both parties to work together to have a fun game.

Long Answer:
With all your other players at your FLGS, the ones you say are backing you up etc., write the most annoying lists to fight and play him. Every time he comes for a game, gladly say, yes we'll play your 'Primary Army' and then take him for a ride. You spread the effort (struggling through these horrible games) with everyone else working against him, whilst he tires and begins to understand.

Now, he'll seek easier prey to go for, so you need to lock off the 'newbies'. Get the store manager or anyone, to specifically protect newbies/ cover them by playing with them so he can't.

This way you deprive him of easy prey and bog him down with a never-ending streak of slog matches. I would put money down that he'll start requesting people to change their armies/lists and that's when you all pounce - yes, we'll play nicely, if you try to play nicely too.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I'm an ex-soldier, too, and trust me... even when you're in, coming at me like that was not good for anyone involved. It invokes a certain reaction that is not socially acceptable. You don't want to go there unless you're ready to fight him into shape

Edit: I guess the point I am trying to make is... don't treat him as such, even though he is

Yeah, but at this point I'm afraid that 'talking to him and being encouraging' isn't going to work. We've had talks, and he feels he's doing nothing wrong and people are just being 'whiners and sore losers'.

It's also at the point where it's not just MY Ultimatum. It's now down to several people saying, "He has to knock this off or we're going to make sure he's banned". They're going to tell the store owners in the area that as long as he's allowed to play 40k, they'll not be doing business with them. The words 'petition signatures' have been thrown around. Some of these players spend quite a bit at the stores.

I'm being asked to step in, mostly because these other players care about me and I wanted to give him one more chance. They didn't.

And I understand why.