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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I'm an ex-soldier, too, and trust me... even when you're in, coming at me like that was not good for anyone involved. It invokes a certain reaction that is not socially acceptable. You don't want to go there unless you're ready to fight him into shape

Edit: I guess the point I am trying to make is... don't treat him as such, even though he is

Yeah, but at this point I'm afraid that 'talking to him and being encouraging' isn't going to work. We've had talks, and he feels he's doing nothing wrong and people are just being 'whiners and sore losers'.

It's also at the point where it's not just MY Ultimatum. It's now down to several people saying, "He has to knock this off or we're going to make sure he's banned". They're going to tell the store owners in the area that as long as he's allowed to play 40k, they'll not be doing business with them. The words 'petition signatures' have been thrown around. Some of these players spend quite a bit at the stores.

I'm being asked to step in, mostly because these other players care about me and I wanted to give him one more chance. They didn't.

And I understand why.

I realize this might sound like a silly question, but how do you expect he'll respond? It's a very direct list of factors and ultimatums, and I could see someone lashing out as a result.

I've dealt with good friends being problem players in the past (both in mini war gaming, competitive computer games & PnP games). And generally if something is triggering toxic behavior in someone it's just best to steer clear of that triggering factor.

Playing at being a shrink or plotting to humiliate him might solve your problem but with the likely event that you'll end up losing your buddy.

My suggestion is either:

1)Tell him that he has been putting his fun first with complete disregard of the other players and hope he listens. (Most people don't like critique like this)

or

2)Go narrative play and enjoy a good time with your friend in a relaxed environment instead. It's the competitive part that seems to be turning him toxic after all so it's an easy enough fix if you still want to game with him.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I realize this might sound like a silly question, but how do you expect he'll respond? It's a very direct list of factors and ultimatums, and I could see someone lashing out as a result.

At this point, dude... he's gonna react the way he's gonna react. We're getting him away from his girlfriend and around his friends- just us, the guys he's known the longest.

If he lashes out, I'm prepared to tell him to buzz off. We've tried to help him and this is his last chance. If he doesn't want it, he can spend the gas money and drive 2.5 hours to the stinky shops in the other city.

The truth is, we've had to remove people for less. We didn't put up with it from someone who was actually mentally ill, we shouldn't have to put up with it from him.


I'm gonna ask one of the Admins to nuke this in a little bit. I'm gonna ask if they'll erase it. I'm already more conflicted than I should be, and I think my current course of action is really all I've got left.

I'm gonna go ahead and thank all of you for offering your input. Some of us may not agree on everything but I'm honestly pleased with your support in this matter. It may not seem like it, but I've had to deal with some really scary things and some really difficult things in my life and this one is... actually harder than I thought it would be. Until it happens to you, I suppose.

Thanks all. May the Emperor's light shine on you.

1. Copy this original post into notepad.

2. Find and replace: "Primary Army" with "Imperial Guard"

3. Read as normal

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I realize this might sound like a silly question, but how do you expect he'll respond? It's a very direct list of factors and ultimatums, and I could see someone lashing out as a result.

At this point, dude... he's gonna react the way he's gonna react. We're getting him away from his girlfriend and around his friends- just us, the guys he's known the longest.

If he lashes out, I'm prepared to tell him to buzz off. We've tried to help him and this is his last chance. If he doesn't want it, he can spend the gas money and drive 2.5 hours to the stinky shops in the other city.

The truth is, we've had to remove people for less. We didn't put up with it from someone who was actually mentally ill, we shouldn't have to put up with it from him.


I'm gonna ask one of the Admins to nuke this in a little bit. I'm gonna ask if they'll erase it. I'm already more conflicted than I should be, and I think my current course of action is really all I've got left.

I'm gonna go ahead and thank all of you for offering your input. Some of us may not agree on everything but I'm honestly pleased with your support in this matter. It may not seem like it, but I've had to deal with some really scary things and some really difficult things in my life and this one is... actually harder than I thought it would be. Until it happens to you, I suppose.

Thanks all. May the Emperor's light shine on you.

Wish you luck, then, man. Dealing with this stuff is extremely hard and it sounds like you've put in way more effort than most people would in trying to make it better.

The only way to beat it is to become TFG. Assume your TFG dominance. Make him cower in fear, and never touch the game again. Problem solved.

You should have confronted him pretty from the beginning but instead you let it fester into this situation. I feel like this thread is to appease your conscious.

If this guy is bad enough that you've got people having discussions and signing petitions - then it's already gone too far and he should have gotten booted a long time ago.

I suspect that if it was just some random jerk not in the 'inner circle' through you, they would have gotten the boot already.

Hey OP, I feel for you.

Have you considered delivering the ultimatum outside of the actual club? I am a little worried if you do it at the club itself it is just going to add pressure to an already tense social setting and cause him to lash out.

Good luck on this one bro, let us all know how it goes.

OP, I'll take the side of your friend and try to give a different perspective. From what you've said, I don't think he's a bad guy at all, just very competitive. He gets a feel good boost from winning and being the best, and to be fair, who doesn't? That's not a problem - it's even to be respected.

It sounds like a large part of the issue is his desire to be recognised - his ego if you like (which we all have). He manifests this with what he likely sees as harmless banter and ribbing, yet without realising, it comes across as boasts and quite bad sportsmanship. No one respects that and it wears thin quickly.

I made the same mistake during a longterm competition at work. I knew I was good so I'd build it up to be a big thing and was sure to lay in wait with plenty of 'banter' for my defeated opponents. Eventually one such ribbed opponent responded to me in front of everyone, "Some people take it too seriously and take all the fun of of it." I'd like to say I took the message onboard and changed my ways at that point, but I didn't. My thoughts were more along the line of, "Oooh, he's got the hump because I'm better than him". I didn't understand why it ruined the fun or how I came across to others. It wasn't fun for them - of course it wasn't!

So how do you fix it? How did I fix it? Truth is I don't know. I think over time I saw others around me who were good at what they do but very grounded, respectful and sportsmanlike. I guess I suffered defeats and disappointments of my own over the years and learnt how support and words of encouragement were nicer to receive than gloating from others. I admired all of that, I noticed others did too, and I wanted to be more that way.

I'm not sure there is a quick fix for your friend. You can tell people truths and give them advice but it can be like water off a duck's back, especially when it comes to criticisms. Mostly I think we learn from our own experiences and mistakes. Perhaps have one last go at getting across to your friend exactly how he's making others feel, what he could do differently and how it would benefit everyone including him, otherwise the ban might be the best way for your group.

Don't call him a TFG.
Don't criticise his army or playstyle.
Take a deep breath and tell him that he is being a bully.
If he is truly a nice guy in all other areas then hearing that he is being a bully in the 40k circles should horrify him.

If it doesn't then give the store owner a photo of him to warn newbies about the 40k bully.
Tell the others to ignore his challenges and play around him.

Then tell him again "You're being a bully. The others don't mind losing, they don't mind you being 'the best' they don't like what you've become along with being the best"

Situation handled.

We sat the dude down at the Taco Cabana and told him he was being an a-hole, and looking down the barrel of a ban from 40k at all the shops, and perhaps total bans.

"I understand. I think it's best I take a break from it for a while, come back to it with a new attitude."

So it's gonna be better, I hope.

But he DID take the last tortilla, so I'm not sure I forgive him yet.

OK, so I read the original post and many of the replies.

As you work at the store, and feel an obligation, then you might consider assembling an 'army' of a million cultists for common use and just have anyone who plays him use that until he gets so bored and begins to understand that the community has had enuff.

What I am more interested in is why his ego is so fixed on his 40k performance. Especially now that he has this girl roped into the hobby, his sense of self-worth is likely even more deeply tied to 40k due to fear that if he fails at 40k then his chick will leave his sorry a$$. IFF you count him as a friend then you might owe it to him to branch out a bit, Refuse to even speak to him about 40k because your friendship is at stake. Tell him that he is not allowed to use his primary army at the store anymore, because it puts people off. Say that it is in the interest of the store and of the other players, that he needs to let off a bit and let people breathe. If he gets a challenge, then let him play that out at a different shop. When you see him around a 40k table at a tournament, avoid him. Tell him that this is to save the friendship. When you do hang out, do other things - exclusively. Never play 40k with him, again... well, until he and his chick get married, they have a kid, and he grows some perspective.

You are in a difficult position, if you honestly care about the guy, cuz you don't wanna tweak his already fragile sense of self-worth but instead you want to strengthen it so that he no longer feels so strongly about his 40k performance, and can understand that his behavior is a sign of personal weakness when he simply shouldn't feel that way if he had the respect for himself that you seem to have for him, instead.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Situation handled.

We sat the dude down at the Taco Cabana and told him he was being an a-hole, and looking down the barrel of a ban from 40k at all the shops, and perhaps total bans.

"I understand. I think it's best I take a break from it for a while, come back to it with a new attitude."

So it's gonna be better, I hope.

But he DID take the last tortilla, so I'm not sure I forgive him yet.

OOps, Guess I posted a bit late.
Yup.
But dude took the last tortilla?
Dammmmm....
Are you sure that he is your friend?
I mean, I am assuming that you paid.

I'm glad to finally see a story of this nature have a good resolution.

Interesting situation and I'm glad it's settled. That is if it's settled.

Care to report back when his break is over? I wish all the best to you, him, and your community.

Glad it sounds like you found an equitable solution. I've had a couple of similar experiences that were just as dumbfounding, if not quite as complex:

One was my close friend's brother playing softball. In any other competition or matter outside of sports he was the most gracious guy you could imagine. On the softball field he became some half-cocked big-leaguer in his own mind and eventually caused the fracturing of that team of close friends.

Another case was this sweet gal I dated. Considerate in all things...unless playing a certain cooperative video game. As she showed me the tricks of her game she'd quickly grow angry that I was 'stealing' all the upgrades and deliberately undermining her efforts! Hell, I barely even grasped the game and just played because she kept insisting. After several attempts to ease her ire I finally had to just quit playing. Something weird and very specific was affecting her judgement and even she acknowledged it was odd.

Unfortunately I was never able to resolve either of my examples except by time and other events taking priority. It looks like you may have better luck in your case, difficult though it may be.

I read the whole thing.

Do you have issues with conflict?

Now that you have a resolution: This whole process you had in place is so passive-aggressive that perhaps it's time to reflect; particularly with that list/ petition...

Be careful that you do not become the monster you are trying to be rid of, as that will also impact your community.

Glad to see it was resolved in a good way, most of luck for when he returns.

Interesting thread, and it's made me think a little about my attitude as well.

I am currently playing rather a lot of a certain co-operative PC game (hint: the pan is god, chicken tastes good). I have a couple of groups of friends I play with, of which half are 'very good' semi-pro quality, and the rest casual.

Amongst the casual is an old friend of mine. He's not a bad gamer at all, but he's very new to the game and hasn't read up on basic squad communication and tactics. He's also prone to comment during spectating my game after being killed. At one point I had to ask him to be quiet, as he wasn't helping... if you've admitted you find it hard to know where the shots are coming from, why are you questioning the instincts of a player who's been playing at least 5x the hours you have, with substantial more success?...

Not to mention the constant stream of inane game-state reporting, or negativity as soon as he's downed, or whining about lack of equipment despite me repeatedly telling him POINTY END FORWARDS, PRESS FIRE! >_<

We've clashed a couple of times now, because it's a high-pressure game and you don't really have time to carefully articulate something, more like barking orders down the mic and hoping they actually listen... I've always apologised afterwards and explained my reasoning, so we're not going to fall out over it, but it has highlighted my competitive streak.

In my defence - when playing with more advanced/accomplished players, I always capitulate to their decisions. I think my friend just doesn't see the game the same way I do. When playing alongside him, I need to consider that.

I read the OP and a lot of good advice and some not so good replies.

Please report back later and let us no the lasting results of your intervention.

I hope the guy can sort himself out.

(He plays eldar for sure)

This is a really interesting post and brings up some very varying emotions.

If you think what I would do... I would stop playing 40k with him, but I would also stop engaging or complaining about him when he does win and then gloat about it (or lose and complain). Be honest with him too and say things like "I don't want to play with you as it's not enjoyable", or that you have no comment on something.
Perversely he is getting rewarded for his actions... he either wins or gets the weird pleasure of complaining about it (which we all get sometimes). He is also getting reactions from people when he is obnoxious and that reaction continues to fuel his outbursts.

It'll work itself out when no-one plays with him on their own, and he only has "new" people to destroy. IF he continues to do that and turns new people away from tournaments and shops, he will eventually get banned, but it will be his own action and not one you have instigated.

You can still be friends with him, and play other games with him, but just don't engage with him when he's being a prize cock. It sounds like it's causing you more worry and trouble for caring, so all you can do is remove yourself.

 Fueli wrote:
Care to report back when his break is over? I wish all the best to you, him, and your community.

Report:

The dude migrated over to do an RPG group with a few other guys. It didn't go so well, he got a little sulky when XP was handed out, and was pushing the DM to give him the gear and such he wanted. I'm not a part of this, I don't do fantasy RPG's. The DM basically told him to grab his dice and GTFO. I was a little baffled hearing this- as I said, he's not this way with other games.

Which apparently caused him to re-evaluate the way he plays games.

He called me up and asked if I wanted to buy some stuff from him, I declined, but I did go over and talk to him under the guise of 'taking pictures so we can put the stuff on eBay'. I sat down with him and sorted through some stuff, and he said to me: "Maybe I was doing good with my army and let it get to my head." He talked to me about a large group of dudes that were here in the local area years before I moved here- these guys were apparently WAAC jerks that behaved the same way, if not worse. He said, "I hated how they acted and when I started winning, I just kinda felt like it was 'my turn' to relish it, I guess. But I was acting like those dudes."

So he and I had a bit of a talk about his army. I'm no master of the game at all, but I pretty much showed him how it was more about what he was playing than his own skillset. He agreed, especially since most people in our area play fun, fluffy armies. He expressed an interest in Horus Heresy, he has the books and all- so I told him to come over for a game and do a demo for it. He did this, and it turned out rather well (we finally sold those boxed sets that weren't moving, and I finally put in my big order to Forge World). His ban was lifted on good conduct, but is still 'probationary'- so he's moved to using other armies and having fun games. He's doing good, he just needed his ego checked.

That, and he sent his girlfriend packing for reasons unknown to me...

OLDSCL wrote:
Do you have issues with conflict?

Nope. I have issues with people who don't listen, or simply disregard what I say. I am also not comfortable just being the ONE guy to deal with something when everyone else cowers under the table.

OLDSCL wrote:
This whole process you had in place is so passive-aggressive that perhaps it's time to reflect; particularly with that list/ petition...

Be careful that you do not become the monster you are trying to be rid of, as that will also impact your community.

I didn't do the petition. As an employee at the store, that would get me fired. This was from other members of the community. Keep in mind that the 'repercussions' of the petition were that they'd stop coming to the store where I part-time. I'm not sure how this would give you the idea I had anything to do with it.

I am glad to hear he realized what he was doing finally.

You mention his gf got the boot, I have seen many people in life change drastically when personal stuff is happening with their significant other. It can be hard, and it could be he felt he was "losing" in life so was looking for a place to vent his frustration with out realizing it. Either way now that he has had his wakeup call I am glad it's working out.

Gl with everything.

He’s good at the game with his ‘Primary Army’. And I mean, really good… or maybe it’s just his army that’s good. Very few people have beaten him since he got the hang of it. But as good as he is at winning, he’s TERRIBLE at losing. The first sign of defeat, and he concedes the game. Even worse, he’ll sit and say afterward “I think he was fudging rolls”, “I’m pretty sure he was over points”, or “I said I wanted a casual game, that was a tournament list he put down”. He’s never lost ‘fair and square’, according to him.

Referee his games. Have both players confirm that they are playing a competitive game. Confirm both lists.

And then point out things he did wrong and say, "Well when you moved the unit back was more damaging than him rolling a couple extra 6s". Just keep driving home his mistakes in a polite way.

And then sucker punch him and take his army.

EDIT: crap I missed the party.

let me wager a guess as to his army: ulramarines and girlyman, bringing the big G with him to every game. my course of action would be a little different. I'd tailor a list to annihilate him, completely dust him off the table the entire time acting the way he does when playing (mirror image) then at the end ask him if it was a fun experience for him? did he enjoy it? was he having fun with his models? if he says no to any/all of the above he now knows what it's like to play against him.

Really glad to hear it went well! That was very adult of him to own up to what he did wrong. Good luck in the future!

I would just say, "Hey man, I cant play against you anymore. You're too intense about this and I just want to have some casual fun. Lets go do something else. Wanna see a movie?"

You let him know your issue but also let him know its not something that should mess up your friendship. If he flips on you that sucks but you did everything you could to be magnanimous about it.

Basicly do what you can to keep the friendship but dont play him anymore. That way sure he may keep doing what he's been doing but its not your problem anymore. His other opponents will probably start doing the same and he'll ether change or he wont. Either way you've done all you can.

Hope that helps.

 supreme overlord wrote:
let me wager a guess as to his army: ulramarines and girlyman, bringing the big G with him to every game.

No way. This whole thing screams "eldar / taudar" player.

 supreme overlord wrote:
let me wager a guess as to his army: ulramarines and girlyman, bringing the big G with him to every game. my course of action would be a little different. I'd tailor a list to annihilate him, completely dust him off the table the entire time acting the way he does when playing (mirror image) then at the end ask him if it was a fun experience for him? did he enjoy it? was he having fun with his models? if he says no to any/all of the above he now knows what it's like to play against him.

Sounds like you have the same ego problems as the guy in the discussion to be honest. You're boiling big social problems down to just winning and losing, and also tying emotional responses to the results of a wargame. Or, in other words, "look at this nice fire. The best solution to beat it is MOAR FIER."

This whole thread is weird. I see no reason to trust the OP. He comes across as extremely high and mighty.