It started well, with only the indexes and no experience. My warriors and Immortals where reanimating all game long. Paired with Anakazyr and Orikan and a ghost ark, my warriors had 2 attack each, 5++ save and two 4+ protocol, raising back 75% of my troops every turn.
Then people realised they had to focus fire, obliterating one unit at a time, to prevent reanimation protocols, so my faction's defining trait was rendered useless.
With the codexes the meta quickly switched to swarm armies with bloats of dozens of cheap 5-8points soldiers that are more unkillable than my 12 points warriors. Almost all codexes have them now, or at least its those codexes that are played.
Tesla immortal and MWBD was apparently a good combo, until those -1 to hit aura effect spawned everywhere.
Quantum shield seemed good, until people realised 2-wounds weapons are the sweet spot to get rid of those doomsday ark quickly.
We don't have bunch of rerolls like others do, at beat we reroll 1s to hit.
No psyker, almost no deny the witch (who takes a spider, seriously?), so Magnus always ends up in my ass with a 3++ save i can't do anything about. Wasted 200 shots on him one game.
They threw us a nice treat in the Chapter approved book, apparently, giving 2 points stratagems to reanimate Wraith (bye-bye Triarch pretorians, it was a fun 6 months) or to reroll 1s on protocols. But since you can't use both at the same time, and that Wraith will usually be far upfield, away from that essential Cryptek, paying 2 points to reanimate on 5+ is expensive, doesn't work well.
Don't get me started with Monoliths! I played a few games with 2! Launching small units of lychguard or flayed ones. Was fun. Not tournament winning by any means.
Only reliable dude i've had is C'tan the Nightbringner, Mr. Death himself, to stay behind fast units and kill important enemy characters. But that ain't enough to win.
SO what now? What do we need?
It seems to me a stratagem to reanimate an entirely whiped-out unit is the only thing that would make Necron viable again. Even making possible 2 battalions of 3 units of 5 immortals (85pts), so we can bulk-up on those stratagem point like the others do!
Yep, they've said during their seminar events that Necrons are going to receive a huge overhaul. I'd wait for the codex before losing hope.
I really hope a lot of the unit point costs are addressed. Necrons need point deductions across the board for almost every unit. Destroyers (and Heavy) need a huge point decrease for what they are at the moment for example.
They will most likely be using stratagems to bring back a lot of the flavour, I could imagine there being 15-20 stratagems easily.
Hopefully a 2CP (or maybe 3CP) stratagem that allows you to reanimate a fully destroyed unit. perhaps place D3+3 models as per deep strike rules and then immediately roll for Reanimation protocols taking into account any nearby buffs - like from a cryptek for example.
Additional random thoughts
Give Lychguard with shields back their ability to bounce mortal wounds back to the enemy - the same rule as Kastellan Robots and their refractor shields would be perfect - IE, on a save roll of a 6, bounce a mortal wound to the closest unit.
Doom Scythe needs to be reworked for it to ever be taken again. Give it the same rule as Mortarions Lantern, draw a line from one unit to the next and every unit underneath takes D3 hits or something.
Rework transports entirely. Monoliths and Night Scythes are great for bringing in infantry, but the whole Tomb World setup mechanic and losing them when the vehicles are destroyed is terrible. A possible stratagem here to allow DS even after losing your transports would help.
Quite probable that there will be 6 Dynasty traits with the usual suspects.. such as -1 to hit at 12" or more, reroll Morale, treat rapid weapons as assault when advancing etc
I miss all the trinkets and wargear that used to be around (oh pokeball., how I miss you). They could be used to build quite unique and fun overlords. More than likely they will bring some of these back in the form of Relics.
Fingers crossed! We should have the codex by end of March according to rumours.
I'm kind of scared for the Necron codex, in that it might be too good. I really think that RPs and quantum shielding are in a good spot for power/fluff and that, yes, Necrons definitely need some support...
...
...BUT I think they'd also be the easiest army to accidentally overtune into OP status. Especially as we're expecting major changes along the lines of significant mobility increases or RP bonuses. Canoptek Harvest of late comes to mind.
Galas wrote: Well. Your Codex is next on the line so you shouldn't need to wait much more time!
Just pray to receive a good codex like Tyranids!
My understanding is that Necrons are third in line, after Drukhari and Tau.
I think Necrons might be an army that's designed to work with stratagems, similar to how Chaos Daemons didn't really function the way they were intended until they got their stratagems. If the codex turns out to be good I know I'm changing my avatar to Xun'bakyr and going back to my 7E army.
Galas wrote: Well. Your Codex is next on the line so you shouldn't need to wait much more time!
Just pray to receive a good codex like Tyranids!
My understanding is that Necrons are third in line, after Drukhari and Tau.
I think Necrons might be an army that's designed to work with stratagems, similar to how Chaos Daemons didn't really function the way they were intended until they got their stratagems. If the codex turns out to be good I know I'm changing my avatar to Xun'bakyr and going back to my 7E army.
HuskyWarhammer wrote: I'm kind of scared for the Necron codex, in that it might be too good.
Given Necron codex history releases, this is probably the most likely outcome, as pretty much every release they've ever had going back to 2E has seen them emerge extremely powerfully, much like Eldar
Necrons have never really had any release that wasn't stellar for its time, at least in terms of power level, with the exception of the 8E Index list.
We know so little about what's coming in the necron codex, most other factions could see the writing on the wall, but there is no faction that functions like necrons that we can draw conclusions from. With that said I'm cautiously optimistic, if for no other reasons than the recent codexes have been good, and it's kind of hard to get worse.
My problem with Necrons is that they are the most technologically advanced faction in 40k but their rules really don't make it feel this way. Only Quantum Shielding, and Reanimation to a lesser extent, really makes me think of their superior technology. Everything else just feels like the things everyone else has but very slightly better. In some cases, like the bigger Tesla guns, they just feel like they're outdated technology because they're so weak.
Points drops are definitely needed on quite a few units, but Necrons aren't supposed to be a horde army so GW can't go too far with that. I'd prefer to see them get a bunch of upgrades on the weaker units that really make them feel technologically superior. A good example would be Necron anti-tank: it's among the worst in the game right now. I'd love to see the return of the Tachyon Arrow for all characters and for our ant-tank guns to be extremely dangerous to compensate for the lack of flexibility in the army design. Yes, Heavy Destroyers are pretty scary when they shoot, but I don't think GW realised how trivial it is to remove a small squad of T5 3W models in 8th edition.
Quantum Shielding actually contributes to this problem for Necrons. We don't have too many 2-wound models so most plasma or similar weapons are targeted at our QS vehicles to get around their defence. That leaves the heavier weapons that do flat 3 or D6 damage often going against our 3-wound units like Destroyers and Wraiths. Normally you don't mind lascannons targeting an Ogryn because it's not shooting your vehicles but in the Necron's case we actually help our enemies make the correct target priority decisions.
Annihilation barges need to be able to field heavy gauss cannons. I mean, look at it, you can totally put a heavy gauss onto that.
Anyway, I'm not sure if necrons will be the last of the three. They did release a cryptek, and it doesn't make sense for them to tease a necron model, then release a couple of other armies before letting you buy the model they teased.
Also, going by Chapter Approved, I can infer the following will happening -
- Going by the reintroduction of the veil of darkness, we will probably get the classic necron wargear, such as solar pulse and nightmare shroud, as relics
- Going by the warlord traits and statagems, a lot of them will probably work around durability; both stratagems involved RP and the Warlord trait reduced damage. So maybe the stratagems and Warlord traits will mostly involve making necrons survive for longer.
The problem with wargear options is that current policy seems to be that the model must be sold with that wargear option for it to be in the codex, so I don't expect to see much improvement (as GW are on a 2 year cycle of selling paper rather than new models right now).
Which is a shame, as I would like to have some long range shooting options. We lack a cheap platform for heavy weapons (having only rally Destroyers, Stalkers and Doomesday Arks, all of which cost a lot per heavy gauss cannon).
A return of Cryptek's long range shooty staff might help, and that may be the one new model we get (not sure what optional wargear it will come with apart from the goblin flyer yet...)
Anyway, it's not like I'm NOT going to buy the codex, whatever it contains...
HuskyWarhammer wrote: I'm kind of scared for the Necron codex, in that it might be too good.
Given Necron codex history releases, this is probably the most likely outcome, as pretty much every release they've ever had going back to 2E has seen them emerge extremely powerfully, much like Eldar
Necrons have never really had any release that wasn't stellar for its time, at least in terms of power level, with the exception of the 8E Index list.
Hope? No. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.
Slipspace wrote:My problem with Necrons is that they are the most technologically advanced faction in 40k but their rules really don't make it feel this way. Only Quantum Shielding, and Reanimation to a lesser extent, really makes me think of their superior technology. Everything else just feels like the things everyone else has but very slightly better. In some cases, like the bigger Tesla guns, they just feel like they're outdated technology because they're so weak.
Sure seems that way. Back ages ago the Gauss always damaging tanks on a 6 was pretty neat, but that's not just their jam anymore. I've not kept up with the editions as they've gone by, but I'm under the impression Reanimation doesn't quite work this edition?
I wonder if they can be made immune to AP (in part or in full) or something. Their thing is being Implacable, and all.
Infantryman wrote: Hope? No. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.
Slipspace wrote:My problem with Necrons is that they are the most technologically advanced faction in 40k but their rules really don't make it feel this way. Only Quantum Shielding, and Reanimation to a lesser extent, really makes me think of their superior technology. Everything else just feels like the things everyone else has but very slightly better. In some cases, like the bigger Tesla guns, they just feel like they're outdated technology because they're so weak.
Sure seems that way. Back ages ago the Gauss always damaging tanks on a 6 was pretty neat, but that's not just their jam anymore. I've not kept up with the editions as they've gone by, but I'm under the impression Reanimation doesn't quite work this edition?
I wonder if they can be made immune to AP (in part or in full) or something. Their thing is being Implacable, and all.
Oh, reanimation works just fine. Its just that it doesn't have the support of the rest of the army like in earlier editions.
In earlier editions RP / WBB had a bunch of other rules and equipment that work off of it, making it much more efficient and adding synergy to the army. In the Index a lot of those options are missing, and the options that do exist either only benefit really specific units, like the ghost working only on warriors, or the res orb having one use only (for a 35 point object...)
We have crypteks buffing RP significantly ... if you can keep them alive...
Res Orb is smelly pants right now (and I modelled it on most of my Lords since it used to be essential)
The problem of balancing RP versus focus fire is challenging. There should be counters to RP, but there should also be ways for Necrons to counter those counters...Maybe make the ressurection orb allow a wiped out unit to try and re-enter play if its last member was killed within 6" of the orb (with a penalty to the roll since there should still be some value to wiping the unit out)?
HuskyWarhammer wrote: I'm kind of scared for the Necron codex, in that it might be too good. I really think that RPs and quantum shielding are in a good spot for power/fluff and that, yes, Necrons definitely need some support...
...
...BUT I think they'd also be the easiest army to accidentally overtune into OP status. Especially as we're expecting major changes along the lines of significant mobility increases or RP bonuses. Canoptek Harvest of late comes to mind.
Except we have an Errata/FAQ schedule now?
This post is really doom and gloom, it's a perfect Necron post!
Also, going by Chapter Approved, I can infer the following will happening -
- Going by the reintroduction of the veil of darkness, we will probably get the classic necron wargear, such as solar pulse and nightmare shroud, as relics
- Going by the warlord traits and statagems, a lot of them will probably work around durability; both stratagems involved RP and the Warlord trait reduced damage. So maybe the stratagems and Warlord traits will mostly involve making necrons survive for longer.
Î THis
RP is the corner stone of Necrons, so any new stuff will revolve against it. Going from RP being merely a buffed feel no pain to the new version is actually pretty fluffy, but doesn't work. So i guess the easy fix is to bring RP stratagems. Reroll 1s from the reclamation legion is already in the Chapter approved, and RP on wraith comes from Canoptek harvest. Perhaps an army-wide RP4+ without crytek, as the decurion detachment gave us? This won't stack with other RP buffs though.
Betting 5$ on that 3CP: roll RP for all destroyed units, respawn near Cryptek.
Infantryman wrote: Hope? No. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.
Slipspace wrote:My problem with Necrons is that they are the most technologically advanced faction in 40k but their rules really don't make it feel this way. Only Quantum Shielding, and Reanimation to a lesser extent, really makes me think of their superior technology. Everything else just feels like the things everyone else has but very slightly better. In some cases, like the bigger Tesla guns, they just feel like they're outdated technology because they're so weak.
Sure seems that way. Back ages ago the Gauss always damaging tanks on a 6 was pretty neat, but that's not just their jam anymore. I've not kept up with the editions as they've gone by, but I'm under the impression Reanimation doesn't quite work this edition?
I wonder if they can be made immune to AP (in part or in full) or something. Their thing is being Implacable, and all.
I'm hoping that they bring back Gauss as a deadly counter to Vehicles like in previous editions. I'd like to see something like on a wound roll of a 6+ (so it can stack with any wound modifiers) it causes D3 damage instead. Would definitely make mass Warrior fire a deadly threat to vehicles again. Could even go as far to say on a hit roll of 6+ it causes an automatic wound perhaps
Infantryman wrote: Hope? No. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.
Slipspace wrote:My problem with Necrons is that they are the most technologically advanced faction in 40k but their rules really don't make it feel this way. Only Quantum Shielding, and Reanimation to a lesser extent, really makes me think of their superior technology. Everything else just feels like the things everyone else has but very slightly better. In some cases, like the bigger Tesla guns, they just feel like they're outdated technology because they're so weak.
Sure seems that way. Back ages ago the Gauss always damaging tanks on a 6 was pretty neat, but that's not just their jam anymore. I've not kept up with the editions as they've gone by, but I'm under the impression Reanimation doesn't quite work this edition?
I wonder if they can be made immune to AP (in part or in full) or something. Their thing is being Implacable, and all.
I'm hoping that they bring back Gauss as a deadly counter to Vehicles like in previous editions. I'd like to see something like on a wound roll of a 6+ (so it can stack with any wound modifiers) it causes D3 damage instead. Would definitely make mass Warrior fire a deadly threat to vehicles again. Could even go as far to say on a hit roll of 6+ it causes an automatic wound perhaps
Ooh that does sound like fun. They will probably drop the -1 AP bonus AP modifier for gauss weapons though to compensate. I hope they keep it though; gauss can actually pierce armor now, and that comes in handy. How would such a rule work with weapons that deal more than 1 damage anyway though? Gauss Cannons, for example, already deal D3 damage, so dealing D3 damage on a wound roll of a six would be redundant. Maybe instead it should be +1 damage on a roll of a 6+ to wound if the target has the "vehicle" keyword. I would like it +1 damage against all targets, but that might overdo it.
Hmm I forgot about the D3 damage from the cannons. two options then
- either make different profiles for different weapons. So the Blasters could do D3 damage on a 6+ and the Cannons for example could do a flat 3 for example. Heavy Cannons could do D6 with a minimum of 3 (similar to Dune Crawler)
- make a universal rule for all Gauss to be an auto wound on a hit of 6+ like I said before, or even +1 to wound or perhaps an additional -1 AP
neither option is game breaking and would help add a bit of flavour again against vehicles.
There are only so many things you can make RP into, and it's more or less been all of them. You can either bring units back from the dead, but limit it in some way, or just ignore damage and say the unit came back. If they went back to 5th ed but got rid of the nearby models rule I'd be over the moon, especially if we got a stratagem for how the monoliths eternity gate used to work.
I suppose there is another way, you could give all necrons multiple wounds and living metal, and the option to not heal a wound and instead bring a model back with one wound. You'd need to Increase points per model, thus Reduce the model count so you'd need to increase the power of necron weapons to make up for the lower model count, something insane like gauss causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit. Low model count, super tough, and wielding crazy guns would certainly capture the feel of the third ed necrons pretty well.
I'm starting to think that GW will keep RP as it is BUT reintroduce the Res Orb as a 6+ after suffering an unsaved wound within 3" or something. That way they can make the Eternity Orb relic a 5+ version of this. As it stands now, all the Necrons really need (aside from some major points reductions) is a stratagem that allows for a destroyed unit to roll RP. With the change to the Res Orb I just mentioned they can make that kind of strategem and there wouldn't need to be any weird rules about how to keep a Res Orb in range of a destroyed unit. Just some thoughts.
Grimgold wrote: There are only so many things you can make RP into, and it's more or less been all of them. You can either bring units back from the dead, but limit it in some way, or just ignore damage and say the unit came back. If they went back to 5th ed but got rid of the nearby models rule I'd be over the moon, especially if we got a stratagem for how the monoliths eternity gate used to work.
I suppose there is another way, you could give all necrons multiple wounds and living metal, and the option to not heal a wound and instead bring a model back with one wound. You'd need to Increase points per model, thus Reduce the model count so you'd need to increase the power of necron weapons to make up for the lower model count, something insane like gauss causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit. Low model count, super tough, and wielding crazy guns would certainly capture the feel of the third ed necrons pretty well.
However it won't happen
240 pts of warriors in rapid fire range (can be done easily enough now) drops a little under 7 mortal wounds which is a touch much maybe. If it was 6+ to wound it'd be a little over 3 which feels better and not over powered, with existing points anyway.
Sorry it wasn't really meant as a serious suggestion, if they tried to return necrons to early 3rd ed levels of elite they would have a model count more similar to grey knights (30 - 40 models) than the 70+ models we fielded in an average decurion decurion in 7th ed.
Look at Index Eldar VS Codex Eldar.
Look at Index Tyranids VS Codex Tyranids.
Those two alone coupled with GW touting "the biggest changes from Index to Codex" for Necrons means your Space Tomb Kings should be a-ok. Besides, you don't have long to wait before you find out for yourself!
Caederes wrote: Look at Index Eldar VS Codex Eldar.
Look at Index Tyranids VS Codex Tyranids.
Those two alone coupled with GW touting "the biggest changes from Index to Codex" for Necrons means your Space Tomb Kings should be a-ok. Besides, you don't have long to wait before you find out for yourself!
To be fair, you could also look at Index AdMech vs Codex AdMech. I generally prefer to be optimistic until given a reason not to, though.
Grimgold wrote: Sorry it wasn't really meant as a serious suggestion, if they tried to return necrons to early 3rd ed levels of elite they would have a model count more similar to grey knights (30 - 40 models) than the 70+ models we fielded in an average decurion decurion in 7th ed.
The general trend seems to be for Xenos to become weaker and cheaper, more hoard-y (happend to Daemons and Necrons), Imperials to stay more or less the same but new mega-elite armies (Primaris, Custardees) to come out to occupy the "uber-elite" slot...
So I don't expect Necrons to get more elite again. They may get more cheap and hordey in fact...
Grimgold wrote: There are only so many things you can make RP into, and it's more or less been all of them. You can either bring units back from the dead, but limit it in some way, or just ignore damage and say the unit came back. If they went back to 5th ed but got rid of the nearby models rule I'd be over the moon, especially if we got a stratagem for how the monoliths eternity gate used to work.
I suppose there is another way, you could give all necrons multiple wounds and living metal, and the option to not heal a wound and instead bring a model back with one wound. You'd need to Increase points per model, thus Reduce the model count so you'd need to increase the power of necron weapons to make up for the lower model count, something insane like gauss causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit. Low model count, super tough, and wielding crazy guns would certainly capture the feel of the third ed necrons pretty well.
However it won't happen
Not sure if you've been paying attention to Age of Sigmar, but Legions of Nagash has a resurrection aura ability that I thought would be nice for resurrection orbs.
They could make reanimation protocols a FNP roll and require a grave marker to be placed on the position of the last model of a unit to die. Then give the resurrection orb a 6" aura effect that heals D3 wounds or resurrects as many wounds' worth of models. Use the grave markers to allow destroyed squads to come back to life and thus lessen the impact of focused fire, but since the resurrection orb is still an item associated with a character the opponent has a chance of taking out that model and doing something against endless resurrection.
It would require a limit on resurrection orbs, though. Endlessly coming back to life is just as boring as never getting to use one's special rule.
Grimgold wrote: Sorry it wasn't really meant as a serious suggestion, if they tried to return necrons to early 3rd ed levels of elite they would have a model count more similar to grey knights (30 - 40 models) than the 70+ models we fielded in an average decurion decurion in 7th ed.
The general trend seems to be for Xenos to become weaker and cheaper, more hoard-y (happend to Daemons and Necrons), Imperials to stay more or less the same but new mega-elite armies (Primaris, Custardees) to come out to occupy the "uber-elite" slot...
So I don't expect Necrons to get more elite again. They may get more cheap and hordey in fact...
Mark.
The irreconcilable nature of Necrons is that in their early depictions Necron Warriors were both a numberless legion and individually better than a Space Marine. It had to go one way or another because of game balance, and since GW isn't going to take away from the super elite image of their poster child...
Always thought that was a shame. I joked that every new codex would decrease a Warrior's save by one. The last codex didn't, so I feel GW owes me with the next one.
Cheeslord wrote: Necron warriors may become the new Star Wars Battle Droids...
Well, they do have their own little carrier I wouldn't mind. Warriors have always been the cannon fodder of the necron army, even in 3rd ed. They were expensive cannon fodder, mind you, but they were still one of the cheapest units we could field and armies tended to have a lot of them. Its Immortals who are the real soldiers.
Cheeslord wrote: Necron warriors may become the new Star Wars Battle Droids...
Well, they do have their own little carrier I wouldn't mind. Warriors have always been the cannon fodder of the necron army, even in 3rd ed. They were expensive cannon fodder, mind you, but they were still one of the cheapest units we could field and armies tended to have a lot of them.
Its Immortals who are the real soldiers.
They had a lot of Warriors because of phase out, not because they weren't real soldiers. They had the same profile as a Marine, and a slightly better gun.
Immortals were the real soldiers because they had assault weapons rather than rapid fire in an edition that wasn't friendly to rapid fire, and a welcome toughness boost that has since been dropped as well.
Oh how the mighty have fallen...
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Ouze wrote: I expect history to repeat itself, and for Necrons to swing from being one of the weakest factions to the strongest.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit.
And just like the last time around, I'd expect to have so much fun leaving my Necrons on the shelf because I don't want to do that to my friends...
Pretty sure in the 3rd ed codex it said warriors were more or less mindless minions who were once civilians / people who didn't support the c'tan, and that immortals were higher up because they were either soldiers or loyal subjects.
The whole more or less mindless thing is part of that dreadful 5th ed retcon, as is the civilians/non-supporters thing. I looked it up to be sure. Immortals are favored servants in the 3rd ed codex. Warriors aren't even mentioned as being anything specific. They're just everyone else.
"And just like the last time around, I'd expect to have so much fun leaving my Necrons on the shelf because I don't want to do that to my friends..."
Boo!
BlackLobster wrote: Are Necrons really that bad? I've only played against them once under 8th and they annihilated my Death Guard. I just could not keep them down.
In a lot of ways yes.
RP is exponentially better at lower point games until it's just plain unbeatable. And exponentially worse at higher point games until it's completely worthless. If you just focus fire 1 unit at a time it never gets a chance to do anything and necrons fall to pieces. The more guns you can bring to shoot in a round the more units you can remove whole sale without their expensive special rule ever triggering.
Gauss took a decent hit with the edition change. A ton of wargear was lost so the options got real slim. Transports can only disembark 1 unit at a time. So character synergies are impossible without multiple transports moving in tandem.
BlackLobster wrote: Are Necrons really that bad? I've only played against them once under 8th and they annihilated my Death Guard. I just could not keep them down.
In a lot of ways yes.
RP is exponentially better at lower point games until it's just plain unbeatable. And exponentially worse at higher point games until it's completely worthless. If you just focus fire 1 unit at a time it never gets a chance to do anything and necrons fall to pieces. The more guns you can bring to shoot in a round the more units you can remove whole sale without their expensive special rule ever triggering.
Gauss took a decent hit with the edition change. A ton of wargear was lost so the options got real slim. Transports can only disembark 1 unit at a time. So character synergies are impossible without multiple transports moving in tandem.
Please tell me more, this is NOT sarcasm, I ask as I am considering necrons as my next army, I've heard they are not great but are they really that bad?
BlackLobster wrote: Are Necrons really that bad? I've only played against them once under 8th and they annihilated my Death Guard. I just could not keep them down.
In a lot of ways yes.
RP is exponentially better at lower point games until it's just plain unbeatable. And exponentially worse at higher point games until it's completely worthless. If you just focus fire 1 unit at a time it never gets a chance to do anything and necrons fall to pieces. The more guns you can bring to shoot in a round the more units you can remove whole sale without their expensive special rule ever triggering.
Gauss took a decent hit with the edition change. A ton of wargear was lost so the options got real slim. Transports can only disembark 1 unit at a time. So character synergies are impossible without multiple transports moving in tandem.
Please tell me more, this is NOT sarcasm, I ask as I am considering necrons as my next army, I've heard they are not great but are they really that bad?
They are not as efficient as they should be. Wait until the codex, don't bother with the index. Most armies receive a power boost when they get their codex, and necrons will probably not be any different. If you get the index now you are just wasting money. You can start off with a few units if you want, but how they play out might not be to your liking.
BlackLobster wrote: Are Necrons really that bad? I've only played against them once under 8th and they annihilated my Death Guard. I just could not keep them down.
In a lot of ways yes.
RP is exponentially better at lower point games until it's just plain unbeatable. And exponentially worse at higher point games until it's completely worthless. If you just focus fire 1 unit at a time it never gets a chance to do anything and necrons fall to pieces. The more guns you can bring to shoot in a round the more units you can remove whole sale without their expensive special rule ever triggering.
Gauss took a decent hit with the edition change. A ton of wargear was lost so the options got real slim. Transports can only disembark 1 unit at a time. So character synergies are impossible without multiple transports moving in tandem.
Please tell me more, this is NOT sarcasm, I ask as I am considering necrons as my next army, I've heard they are not great but are they really that bad?
Read the original post. Reanimation protocol as it is is super fluffy and cool, but is not working once people know what to do against it (which is slay 15 warrior and make you lose the other 5 through a morale check, or waste 2 CP).
Warrior blobs is still working somewhat (40-60 warrior + ghost ark + cryptek) but you got 500+ points invested there (thats still combined 140 F4 ap-1 rapid fire shot)
Immortals get just killed wayyyy to kickly, and seems everybody got that -1 to hit power, so tesla stuff doesn't work as it should either.
and so on....
its fixable. never lost by BIG margins. i dealt damage.
Formosa wrote: I read the original post but it does not really explain why certain units suck.
My plan was stalkers, flayed ones, warriors, basically anything I can convert the crap out of to make it look different.
Are the FW units crap too?
Its not so much that specific units suck, its just that the army as a whole is missing the synergy that necrons usually need to excel. RP actually works a lot like 3rd ed WBB, except even stronger as you get multiple chances. However, it worked better in 3rd ed because necrons had ubiquitous (albeit weak) anti vehicle fire and various means of buffing WBB; spyders can allow you to roll for wiped units, res orbs removed WBB's weaknesses, monoliths allowed a reroll, solar pulse weakened enemy shooting, etc. On top of that, the anti-vehicle fire from gauss allowed necrons to engage all targets equally whilst taking little losses.
The Index has next to none of those options, and the options they do have are very limited. Ghost Arks will only provide a reroll to a single warrior unit within 3", which is laughably short, likewise for crypteks, who provide a +1 bonus to RP, but also at a measly 3" in an edition where most buffs are 6". Res Orbs are an expensive single use item that just provides rerolls, which is pathetic compared to its earlier incarnations, and necrons now have nearly no options to deal with vehicles.
See, the reason why necrons traditionally had few dedicated anti-vehicle options was because of the gauss rule, which while weak compared to a lascannon, was still effective due to weight of fire. However, in an edition where a lucky glance no longer kills vehicles and you actually have to deal damage, not having such options really hurts necrons as they now need to deal multiple damage, something that wasn't given to them except on a few fragile and expensive platforms.
Its almost as if whoever designed the army doesn't understand how necrons work. Or maybe necrons are incompatible with an index style of army, as indexes are typically lacking in options.
The problem Necrons have is that everything is too expensive so your damage output is weak. This is especially true for anti-vehicles/monsters but it applies across the board. You are also only situationally tough (and toughness in the index was overcosted across the board).
Apparently there's supposed to be some large changes in the codex. As to what they are, I have no idea. Since Games Workshop have refused to comment on it, or announce a release schedule of some sort. Or mention that a problem even exists.
BlackLobster wrote: Are Necrons really that bad? I've only played against them once under 8th and they annihilated my Death Guard. I just could not keep them down.
In a lot of ways yes.
RP is exponentially better at lower point games until it's just plain unbeatable. And exponentially worse at higher point games until it's completely worthless. If you just focus fire 1 unit at a time it never gets a chance to do anything and necrons fall to pieces. The more guns you can bring to shoot in a round the more units you can remove whole sale without their expensive special rule ever triggering.
Gauss took a decent hit with the edition change. A ton of wargear was lost so the options got real slim. Transports can only disembark 1 unit at a time. So character synergies are impossible without multiple transports moving in tandem.
Please tell me more, this is NOT sarcasm, I ask as I am considering necrons as my next army, I've heard they are not great but are they really that bad?
So the 2 big necron "transports" are Monoliths and Night Scythes.
They don't have a transport capacity because they are not actually carrying anyone. You can just place "Dynasty" units on the tomb world and then each turn you can disembark one unit from the tomb world onto the battlefield.
If all your transports are destroyed before all your units can disembark then the units on the tomb world are destroyed. Because you can only disembark 1 unit a turn you don't want a lot of units sitting off planet. Other players rules allow for a character to be packed into a transport with a unit or 2. But necrons can't synergize that way currently. You have these melee centric characters, but you couldn't pack them into a night scythe with some lychguard and flayed ones or whatever. No crypteks piling in with the warriors they support.
It's a real problem. They don't have a capacity so you could dump a potentially massive number of units out of the transport as long as they fit around it. And hey, you can fit a lot of gak around a monolith. But the limit of 1 unit a turn is incredibly crippling at the same time. They could limit it to... I dunno. No more than 20 models may disembark a turn. That way you could do 10 lychguard a character and whatever. But they havent yet. So for right now nightscythes and monoliths are not doing a big part of their job.
RP only triggers while the unit is still has at least 1 model and generally takes place at the beginning of your turn/movement. So if we are playing a 1k point game how many guns do I actually have to shoot at your blob of 20 warriors? Can I actually kill 15? And worse, models that die from Morale cannot be returned with RP. But at 2.5k I have WAY MORE than enough guns to pick a unit or 2 and guarantee that after morale the unit just won't exist. Which means RP doesn't trigger at all. Now consider melee, where If I charge you on my turn and we fight and then you get to fight again on YOUR turn and THEN I get to RP. It's worse if people are using fall back shenanigans. Lychguard charge and fight. You fight back. You fall back. You shoot the lychguard. You charge the lychguard. You fight. Maybe the lychguard fight back if any are alive? Now it's Necrons turn again. NOW RP kicks in if any are still standing.
Meanwhile, there used to be this big list of wargear available to lords and overlords. Flamer gauntlets, tachyon arrows, mindshackle scarabs. etc etc...All kinds of gak. But there are only 2 models of overlord in production and they come with the same wargear. Staff of Light or Warscythe and a res orb. So now Overlords can takes those options. Same goes for crypteks.
While Necrons had these bunches of named characters with interesting synergies, they now all belong to their own dynasties and now don't mix and play well together. I imagine that will get a lot better come the codex when dynasties get their own perks. But Index wise it just split up combinations people were using before.
RP needs to have a more steady effect regardless of game size. Transports need to be adjusted SOMEHOW so they they are actually usable and not a break neck race to deploy units before the gates close and a chunk of your army just dies. Options need to return so that the characters can become flexible again.
Tyel wrote: The problem Necrons have is that everything is too expensive so your damage output is weak. This is especially true for anti-vehicles/monsters but it applies across the board. You are also only situationally tough (and toughness in the index was overcosted across the board).
Sums up the issue nicely. Necrons suffer from a narrow range of weapons that leaves their offense full of gaping holes, and wildly overcosted Reanimation Protocols as a universal mechanic keeps them down.
If they get an overhaul that spends time looking over their weapons and giving them the spread of tools to engage a full range of targets they might end up usable or even good. If they get a GK-style phone-in copy-paste-the-Index-and-slap-some-band-aids-on-it-so-we-can-get-back-to-writing-Primarchs mess they'll remain unplayable for a long time.
I'm still under the idea that giving Necrons the Eldar treatment and lowering the point cost on practically everything will improve their game tremendously. Right now, there's not enough on the table to force opponents into a position to make a difficult decision. Opponents focus fire units one at a time because it's easy to do right now. Allowing Necron players to bring more models to the table will make their game much better, even if they don't even want to touch RP. Some units will need adjustments here and there, but mainly it's just the price point.
Formosa wrote: I read the original post but it does not really explain why certain units suck.
My plan was stalkers, flayed ones, warriors, basically anything I can convert the crap out of to make it look different.
Are the FW units crap too?
Triarch Stalkers are decent. Flayed Ones are bad because they can't guarantee a charge the turn they come in and have counter-synergy with Overlords (you can't MWBD them until the next turn), Warriors are bad because they get shredded by morale (in the sense that losing even a single Warrior to morale screws you out of RP forever) and are largely toothless compared to Immortals.
Necrons have some passable units like the Stalker, but they lack any grade A unit that can really sell the army and give you something functional to build around. Tesla Immortals are close but get weaker with every army that comes out with a -1 to hit.
Formosa wrote: I read the original post but it does not really explain why certain units suck.
My plan was stalkers, flayed ones, warriors, basically anything I can convert the crap out of to make it look different.
Are the FW units crap too?
Triarch Stalkers are decent. Flayed Ones are bad because they can't guarantee a charge the turn they come in and have counter-synergy with Overlords (you can't MWBD them until the next turn), Warriors are bad because they get shredded by morale (in the sense that losing even a single Warrior to morale screws you out of RP forever) and are largely toothless compared to Immortals.
Necrons have some passable units like the Stalker, but they lack any grade A unit that can really sell the army and give you something functional to build around. Tesla Immortals are close but get weaker with every army that comes out with a -1 to hit.
Flayed ones you use with Ctan deceiver, Nemezor + Vanguard or the veil of darnkess. Teleport, pouf, charge. Flayed ones are actually pretty damn good with this 80 X 5-points soldiers meta. WIth Ctan its a cumulative -2 on morale check.
I also tried 2 Triarch Stalker + 3 Doomsday arks. That's 1000 point you can still have plenty on warriors. Hit or miss, but promising. Quantum shield en masse, stay away from those 2-DMG weapons. I use stalker with twin heavy guass cannon, 36''. In theory you can bring down an imperial knight per turn, but those d3 shots, you often get 1!!!!
We NEED open-top ghost ark though. Zoom through the map with 10 warriors on board, load of shots and get those objectives!
6 Wraith + Ctan Nightbringner, promising. Just take a flank and move up field, no regard for loses as long as your Ctan stay protected and can get to a precious target.
Monoliths at 300 pts, i would always use them.
Formosa wrote: I read the original post but it does not really explain why certain units suck.
My plan was stalkers, flayed ones, warriors, basically anything I can convert the crap out of to make it look different.
Are the FW units crap too?
Triarch Stalkers are decent. Flayed Ones are bad because they can't guarantee a charge the turn they come in and have counter-synergy with Overlords (you can't MWBD them until the next turn), Warriors are bad because they get shredded by morale (in the sense that losing even a single Warrior to morale screws you out of RP forever) and are largely toothless compared to Immortals.
Necrons have some passable units like the Stalker, but they lack any grade A unit that can really sell the army and give you something functional to build around. Tesla Immortals are close but get weaker with every army that comes out with a -1 to hit.
Flayed ones you use with Ctan deceiver, Nemezor + Vanguard or the veil of darnkess. Teleport, pouf, charge. Flayed ones are actually pretty damn good with this 80 X 5-points soldiers meta. WIth Ctan its a cumulatiove -2 on morale check.
You still need to make a 9" charge, same as if you had appeared using their rule. Only difference is that this method would cost a lot more points (around 430 points for the Deceiver and 10 Flayed Ones).
You can't use Grand Illusion to put Flayed Ones into position because you can't charge after that move. Veil of Darkness is an 8" charge, the Obyron Slingshot is reaaaally expensive... It can work, sure, but it's definitely inferior to codex-enabled assault bombs like Bloodletters or Tzaangors.
Flayed Ones will probably be great post-codex though, since they're a unit that will be heavily enabled by stratagems. Assault units in every army seem to heavily rely on the synergy that a codex brings, so I'm excited to see what Necrons will bring to the assault phase.
Formosa wrote: I read the original post but it does not really explain why certain units suck.
My plan was stalkers, flayed ones, warriors, basically anything I can convert the crap out of to make it look different.
Are the FW units crap too?
Triarch Stalkers are decent. Flayed Ones are bad because they can't guarantee a charge the turn they come in and have counter-synergy with Overlords (you can't MWBD them until the next turn), Warriors are bad because they get shredded by morale (in the sense that losing even a single Warrior to morale screws you out of RP forever) and are largely toothless compared to Immortals.
Necrons have some passable units like the Stalker, but they lack any grade A unit that can really sell the army and give you something functional to build around. Tesla Immortals are close but get weaker with every army that comes out with a -1 to hit.
Flayed ones you use with Ctan deceiver, Nemezor + Vanguard or the veil of darnkess. Teleport, pouf, charge. Flayed ones are actually pretty damn good with this 80 X 5-points soldiers meta. WIth Ctan its a cumulative -2 on morale check.
I also tried 2 Triarch Stalker + 3 Doomsday arks. That's 1000 point you can still have plenty on warriors. Hit or miss, but promising. Quantum shield en masse, stay away from those 2-DMG weapons. I use stalker with twin heavy guass cannon, 36''. In theory you can bring down an imperial knight per turn, but those d3 shots, you often get 1!!!!
Want to try 3X3 heavy destroyers? Be my guest, just stay hidden until you want to actually kill something. You shouldn't miss.
Plain destroyers though, they have low range and are weak. Plus its a bullet magnet.
We NEED open-top ghost ark though. Zoom through the map with 10 warriors on board, load of shots and get those objectives!
6 Wraith + Ctan Nightbringner, promising. Just take a flank and move up field, no regard for loses as long as your Ctan stay protected and can get to a precious target.
Monoliths at 300 pts, i would always use them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: True remove that Ctan deceiver thing. Veil of darkness thought, 8'' charge, can use MWBD for extra 1'', 7 on 2 dice is an average and at worst use a CP to reroll. So they usually make it.
Vanguard obyron stuff is expensive, but fun, and does other tricks too.
Arachnofiend wrote: Hopefully the other dynasties get bonuses strong enough to justify them over the glut of powerful special characters the Sautekh get.
Yup. I am a little worried about that. It's an issue with Tau too. T'au sept is full of characters. Then Farsight has Farsight himself. And then.... nothing for the others.
While every Sm chapter gets fleshed out with at least a character or 2. But all the Xenos armies have been considered one big thing for so long that once they get broken up into all these sub factions they just don't have the characters to really flesh them out.
It's actually a 9-inch charge through the veil of darkness. It would be 8 if you were at exactly 9 but the rule on veil says all models must be set up more than 9 inches from an enemy model.
I'd like to see a stratagem that can be played immediately after a unit is destroyed but allows them to make a RP roll to see how many stand back up. That could be a crazy clutch stratagem since you'd get at least one more RP roll on your turn.
Hoodwink wrote: I'd like to see a stratagem that can be played immediately after a unit is destroyed but allows them to make a RP roll to see how many stand back up. That could be a crazy clutch stratagem since you'd get at least one more RP roll on your turn.
If that stratagem exists it's going to be the necron players bread and butter.
A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.
Arachnofiend wrote: A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.
Well if it triggers a RP roll it wouldn't be making a NEW unit (which is what costs the reinforcement points). It would just be bringing them back (probably just before the last model is removed). I mean, doesn't matter. It's just wishful thinking until we see the dex.
Just make it something like 2 CP. Then it's not something spammable by any means. And if there are more guns or people fighting, it's not like it would help that much since the next set of attacks would just wipe your few models you got back.
From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.
BDconrad wrote: From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.
What? I have never seen anything like an Overlord being able to stand up to a Primarch, much less multiple at the same time?
And I don't think we should go full elite. There is enough space in the dex to balance between having larger swathes of warriors or Immortals, and then going more elite with Praetorians, lychguard and the like.
Since there is some curiosity, here are the big issues
Our transports are literally the worst in the game, and we are a short range army with a 5" move. Tomb world deploy is neat sounding, but awfully implemented. Units in tomb world deploy count as being in reserves as opposed to being in a transport, and since you won't deploy first turn, you effectively only have two turns to deploy everything you have in TWD. A character takes up an entire deployment cycle, so you don't bring them. Which leaves units "disembarking" from TWD without leadership support, and then there is the whole problem that units exiting tomb world deploy don't get a movement phase. I could go on, but let's leave it at our transports have awful rules which forces our entire army on foot.
Reanimation protocols has uneven performance, and is too easily bypassed at the points values people choose to play at. Honestly I think it's the uneven effectiveness that is going to doom RP, if it were just an issue with it needing stratagems to prop it up GW would probably stick by it, but at the start collecting box range and just about thru 1000 points RP is super tough to get around.
Lack of special weapons, Necrons with the exception of two units are all mono-weapon units. We also don't have devastators or the like which are cheap dudes with big guns, all of our interesting weapons are on expensive models, so we can bring less big guns to begin with, and to neuter necrons you just kill the models with guns that can hurt you. To get the equivalent of 4 grav cannons (and yes i know grav cannons suck), it's over twice the investment for necrons as it is for space marines. This has always been the issue with necrons, but in previous editions warriors and immortals were equipped with weapons that were dangerous to all target profiles, and our destroyers were t5 with two wounds, so very hard to take out in a single shot. For necrons to function with the way the heavy and special weapons are divided up (eg: being able to operate without them if need be), every necron weapon needs to be dangerous to just about any target, maybe not optimal, but at least workable. Now with middlign strength and only a -1 ap, the only thing gauss flayers are dangerous to is MEQ.
Near universally overcost, you could make the argument that warriors, immortals, and scarabs are appropriately priced, but outside of them the rest of the army does to little for too many points. The problem is that our support units have great stats, and they pay for them even if those stats don't end up being really useful. Destroyers have a 10" move, 3 wounds, toughness 5, can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty, and reroll ones to hit. You pay for all of those stats when all you want is the gauss cannon that comes with him. That means that point for point his offense is awful, and his toughness is significantly less than in the previous edition, where a single las cannon hit didn't stand a chance of killing one. Now a las cannon will ace a destroyer 2/3 of the time.
No synergy, no units in our army really synergize well with each other. This has everything to do with our HQ models and special characters having bad rules. Some of our special characters don't have dynasty keywords, which means that they can't embark, can't benefit from buffs, etc.
Arachnofiend wrote: A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.
Well if it triggers a RP roll it wouldn't be making a NEW unit (which is what costs the reinforcement points). It would just be bringing them back (probably just before the last model is removed). I mean, doesn't matter. It's just wishful thinking until we see the dex.
That's my issue with allowing a RP roll to bring a unit back; it's effectively a new unit, and without it costing reinforcement points that just becomes extra troops. If Necrons get to bring squads back without Reinforce Points, I want my Tyranid Tervigons to spawn Termagants without costing Reinforcement Points.
Arachnofiend wrote: A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.
Well if it triggers a RP roll it wouldn't be making a NEW unit (which is what costs the reinforcement points). It would just be bringing them back (probably just before the last model is removed). I mean, doesn't matter. It's just wishful thinking until we see the dex.
That's my issue with allowing a RP roll to bring a unit back; it's effectively a new unit, and without it costing reinforcement points that just becomes extra troops. If Necrons get to bring squads back without Reinforce Points, I want my Tyranid Tervigons to spawn Termagants without costing Reinforcement Points.
That's childish. RP is the bread and butter of the necron, and unless you want all of the above suggested ideas to apply (cut point cost, improve weapons), the only way to make this army work is to make RP work. So its not reinforcement, RP works if you have 1 warrior left, a 2CP or 3CP stratagem would make RP work with 0 warrior left. Marginal at best. Won't be able to use 2 CP to reroll 1s on RP, or to RP wraiths, or to make all RP to 4s without cryptek.
The rational for whole units not costing points is the same for single models not costing points - its technically the same unit, as such isn't the same as deploying a new squad.
Tervigons are generating new units. Those termagants were not on the table before, but they are now.
A wiped necron unit was on the table to begin with, and as such isn't a new unit.
Granted, by now I expect the codex to be pretty much fixed, so conjecture is just daydreaming.
I personally would like to see them slide back towards elite army over horde. Or maybe just be playable either way, but that seems hard to balance. This is all just preference mind, hopefully they can make the army work for at least one or the other, just if I had to choose myself I'd go for a more elite xenos army over a horde theme for them.
But perhaps you could make the core of the army warriors for a horde-based approach and immortals for an elite-based approach.
But the reason is, many Xenos forces are already more horde-oriented, as pointed out earlier. Tyranids of course, and Orks, and even Tau to a large degree field a lot more models than a SM army. Eldar can be as well, but less so in general. One of the whole reasons I had a tyranid and a necron army was to swap between elite smaller army size and mass-o-models swarms, and it'd be nice to see them differentiated. They don't need to be Grey Knights/Custodes level of small-but-elite, but my preference is for the focus on their (Necron) insane superscience and "unkillable" parts of the fluff over the "infinite legions" part. However if both can be supported that'd be pretty awesome.
Merkabah wrote: It's actually a 9-inch charge through the veil of darkness. It would be 8 if you were at exactly 9 but the rule on veil says all models must be set up more than 9 inches from an enemy model.
The difference with the Veil is that you put it on an overlord that can give them MWBD , and then it's only an 8" charge.
Hoodwink wrote: I'd like to see a stratagem that can be played immediately after a unit is destroyed but allows them to make a RP roll to see how many stand back up. That could be a crazy clutch stratagem since you'd get at least one more RP roll on your turn.
If that stratagem exists it's going to be the necron players bread and butter.
Unless it happens in the fight phase on your turn. Meaning they just get mawled again in your enemies fight phase.
Merkabah wrote: It's actually a 9-inch charge through the veil of darkness. It would be 8 if you were at exactly 9 but the rule on veil says all models must be set up more than 9 inches from an enemy model.
The difference with the Veil is that you put it on an overlord that can give them MWBD , and then it's only an 8" charge.
He was arguing that it was a 7" charge with MWBD. I was just giving the needed base charge roll necessary without. Guess I could have made that more clear
Resurrection habilities dont cost points. Celestine, Guilliman, the avatar resurrection stratagem, chaos boom stratagem (you destroy your character and create a dp or spawn) etc...
So a stratagem to roll RP after a unit is killed shouldnt cost reinforcement points.
Arachnofiend wrote: A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.
Well if it triggers a RP roll it wouldn't be making a NEW unit (which is what costs the reinforcement points). It would just be bringing them back (probably just before the last model is removed). I mean, doesn't matter. It's just wishful thinking until we see the dex.
That's my issue with allowing a RP roll to bring a unit back; it's effectively a new unit, and without it costing reinforcement points that just becomes extra troops. If Necrons get to bring squads back without Reinforce Points, I want my Tyranid Tervigons to spawn Termagants without costing Reinforcement Points.
Not the same thing. You're getting new gants, not reviving slain ones.
Necrons need a buff, not another reason for them to be sold en masse on eBay. Forcing necrons to pay reinforcement points for a core mechanic that is built into the price of the unit is ridiculous.
When fighting Grey Knights, Daemons can respawn units for CP, so there is some precedent.
Maybe making RP more like Feel no Pain, but allowing strategems, Items and buff auras allow additional rolls later on could mitigate the strength of focus fire (since you would still have to punch through the initial RP rolls to take the unit down)
BDconrad wrote: From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.
What? I have never seen anything like an Overlord being able to stand up to a Primarch, much less multiple at the same time?
And I don't think we should go full elite. There is enough space in the dex to balance between having larger swathes of warriors or Immortals, and then going more elite with Praetorians, lychguard and the like.
Fluff aside (some poeple are saying they've an elite army fluff wise but... are they? to my knowledge it's not that they're super deadly individually it's just that they keep coming back and most of their tech cuts through armor without a thought but the same could about eldar really - minus the ressurection part ofc) i hope they don't become an elite army, not even close. It's fun on GK and Custodes and such but with 8th (and presumably dex-crons themselves) being so stratagem reliant, having expensive battalions with no possibility to slot in cheap allies is a pretty instant death-knell
If I were given design of crons, I'd make RP not a random effect. You would have such-and-such amount of reanimation, scaling with army size, and you could use it to reanimate any models with RP, at a rate dependent on the unit, with a discount if near a cryptek or res orb.
This would lead to an interesting situation where players would bring balanced TAC lists, and then during a game would have the option to use their reanimation on the things they need more of. For example in a game against knights/superheavies, they'd just leave the warriors dead and keep rezzing the heavy destroyers with all their RP.
It would really make them feel like a calculating advanced race with a revival mechanic as opposed to "robotic nurgle machines."
niv-mizzet wrote: If I were given design of crons, I'd make RP not a random effect. You would have such-and-such amount of reanimation, scaling with army size, and you could use it to reanimate any models with RP, at a rate dependent on the unit, with a discount if near a cryptek or res orb.
This would lead to an interesting situation where players would bring balanced TAC lists, and then during a game would have the option to use their reanimation on the things they need more of. For example in a game against knights/superheavies, they'd just leave the warriors dead and keep rezzing the heavy destroyers with all their RP.
It would really make them feel like a calculating advanced race with a revival mechanic as opposed to "robotic nurgle machines."
Necron has always been about fielding a gak-load of warriors, then add support. More so in THIS meta, if you field an elite army you will get slaugthered as you will never have enough attacks / shots to hit all miniatures of the swarm standing in front of you. You need warriors, 40-60, and rapid fire, that won't change.
I don't know if they'll fix gauss anti-vehicule though.
Back in the days, a 20-warrior blob would get 40 shots on a rhino, 30 hits, 5 of which would wound, which was enough.
Now having -1AP army-wide is nice, but not nearly enough.
What if gauss always wound on 5s? (like scarabs). Those S4 guns would work well vs T8+ stuff. That 40 shots would make 10 wounds (before saves), no bad. Now if you have 40-60 warriors, you could bring down a monolith.
Necrons need a price decrease. Most of the infantry is fine, but vehicles and the more specialized units are way too pricey for what they can do. GA needs a heavy point drop, Destroyers need to be 20 points less and barges and flyers need some points shaved as well.
I find it really difficult to compose a list because of how expensive everything is, unless I just want to spam warriors, immortals and scarabs.
BDconrad wrote: From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.
err where was this stated - seems to be completely contrary to the fluff.
Necron warriors are resilient and keep getting back up with good guns - that's it. They are not Elite - they do have Elite specialists - but then who doesn't?
Necron Characters have cool tech but so do lots of characters.
Now if you talking about a C'tan then yeah you have a point.
While every Sm chapter gets fleshed out with at least a character or 2.
At least one First Founding Chapter has none - Iron Hands. The Ultramarines do get loads and the Black Templars a few, rest get one if that.
BDconrad wrote: From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.
Except that's wrong. Necrons have never been an elite army like Grey knights, even in the fluff.
Hell, their tagline on the 3rd edition codex is "Their Number Is Legion, Their Name is Death"
They aren't really a hoard army either, as per the fluff there's only a small number of necron worlds compared to the vast number of Human and Ork worlds. They are somewhere in between.
Basically there are two fluffy approaches for modern necrons and there is no reason you can't make both viable. One is the classic silver tide from back in third - big blocks of warriors that are very hard to remove advancing up the field supported by buffing units and flanked by fast moving hard hitters. The other is the fast moving raiders - smaller units with less support that are in fast moving, tough vehicles that envelop the enemy and employ devastating short range weapons to pick apart the opposition. Throw in a few teleportation shenanigans to both approaches, and that's how necrons should play. We'll see what the new codex has in store.
Grimgold wrote: No synergy, no units in our army really synergize well with each other. This has everything to do with our HQ models and special characters having bad rules.
I'd just like to give one example of some of our anti-synergy, if I may. Namely, the Destroyer Lord.
Now, the Destroyer Lord used to just be a regular Necron Lord (who was our main HQ back before all this Overlord nonsense) mounted on a Destroyer Body. He was just our equivalent of an HQ with a Jetbike. That was important because it meant he had the same synergies and combat abilities as a regular Necron Lord (albeit with +1T). The only thing that changed was that his movement speed was doubled - allowing him to hang out with Wraiths, Scarabs or such.
Then in 5th, the fluff was altered such that Destroyers - including Destroyer Lords - were all insane Daleks who exterminate anything and everything that isn't them. Sigh. Functionally, however, Destroyer Lords basically became Destroyer Overlords in terms of stats (with Necron Lords being nerfed down to 1W demi-HQs). They were pretty good and, IIRC, were used a great deal with Wraiths (who might have otherwise struggled with heavy armour and vehicles).
Why this history lesson, you ask? Well, things changed in 7th when some pillock on the design team decided that Destroyer Lords should go back to being the equivalents of Necron Lords, rather than Overlords. So when all our Overlords were upgraded to WS5 BS5, Destroyer Lords were left at WS4 BS4. Worse still, the aforementioned pillock thought to himself 'hey, why are Necron Lords going around with Wraiths? They should be hanging out with their own kind'. So 7th also gave us the Destroyer Cult Formation, which gave the Destroyer Lord an aura that buffed nearby Destroyers. The only problem is that Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are ranged units (with ranges of 24" and 36", respectively), whilst the Destroyer Lord is a melee unit.
And now 8th has continued this proud trend with the Destroyer Lord's stats (WS3+, BS3+, whilst our other HQs are WS2+, BS2+) and inbuilt aura. The latter allows all nearby Destroyers to reroll to-wound rolls of 1... when shooting. Just to clarify, the Destroyer Lord has access to 4 weapons. 1 of them has a ranged attack (with the range of a pistol). So, most of the time, the Destroyer Lord is going to have anti-synergy with his own aura.
Hence, as it stands, we have what amounts to a fast, dedicated-melee HQ, who is only able to buff two long-rage, shooty units. On top of that, whilst every other HQ in the game gets to keep their stats when they take a bike or jump pack, ours has to trade WS and BS for the privilege.
Grimgold wrote: No synergy, no units in our army really synergize well with each other. This has everything to do with our HQ models and special characters having bad rules.
I'd just like to give one example of some of our anti-synergy, if I may. Namely, the Destroyer Lord.
Now, the Destroyer Lord used to just be a regular Necron Lord (who was our main HQ back before all this Overlord nonsense) mounted on a Destroyer Body. He was just our equivalent of an HQ with a Jetbike. That was important because it meant he had the same synergies and combat abilities as a regular Necron Lord (albeit with +1T). The only thing that changed was that his movement speed was doubled - allowing him to hang out with Wraiths, Scarabs or such.
Then in 5th, the fluff was altered such that Destroyers - including Destroyer Lords - were all insane Daleks who exterminate anything and everything that isn't them. Sigh. Functionally, however, Destroyer Lords basically became Destroyer Overlords in terms of stats (with Necron Lords being nerfed down to 1W demi-HQs). They were pretty good and, IIRC, were used a great deal with Wraiths (who might have otherwise struggled with heavy armour and vehicles).
Why this history lesson, you ask? Well, things changed in 7th when some pillock on the design team decided that Destroyer Lords should go back to being the equivalents of Necron Lords, rather than Overlords. So when all our Overlords were upgraded to WS5 BS5, Destroyer Lords were left at WS4 BS4. Worse still, the aforementioned pillock thought to himself 'hey, why are Necron Lords going around with Wraiths? They should be hanging out with their own kind'. So 7th also gave us the Destroyer Cult Formation, which gave the Destroyer Lord an aura that buffed nearby Destroyers. The only problem is that Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are ranged units (with ranges of 24" and 36", respectively), whilst the Destroyer Lord is a melee unit.
And now 8th has continued this proud trend with the Destroyer Lord's stats (WS3+, BS3+, whilst our other HQs are WS2+, BS2+) and inbuilt aura. The latter allows all nearby Destroyers to reroll to-wound rolls of 1... when shooting. Just to clarify, the Destroyer Lord has access to 4 weapons. 1 of them has a ranged attack (with the range of a pistol). So, most of the time, the Destroyer Lord is going to have anti-synergy with his own aura.
Hence, as it stands, we have what amounts to a fast, dedicated-melee HQ, who is only able to buff two long-rage, shooty units. On top of that, whilst every other HQ in the game gets to keep their stats when they take a bike or jump pack, ours has to trade WS and BS for the privilege.
To be fair, destroyers now have 2 attacks, so they can be good in CC against weakened targets.
But yeah, it is pretty dumb how a unit that really wants to be in CC is expected to be with units that really want to shoot.
They either need to make CC options for destroyers, a good ranged option for destroyer lords or give the Destroyer Lord My Will be Done.
To be fair, destroyers now have 2 attacks, so they can be good in CC against weakened targets.
They do indeed have 2 attacks, but with no AP and few models it's unlikely they'll accomplish a whole lot with them.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: But yeah, it is pretty dumb how a unit that really wants to be in CC is expected to be with units that really want to shoot.
They either need to make CC options for destroyers, a good ranged option for destroyer lords or give the Destroyer Lord My Will be Done.
My fix would be:
1) Give him WS2+ BS2+. There's no good reason for him to have crap melee ability.
2) Change his aura to "Friendly <DYNASTY> units within 6" reroll to-wound rolls of 1."
Boom. Now he still help out Destroyers if you want, but he can also buff other units - including melee ones.
Also, by not giving him MWBD, it means he's not just a direct upgrade of the Overlord.
To be fair, destroyers now have 2 attacks, so they can be good in CC against weakened targets.
They do indeed have 2 attacks, but with no AP and few models it's unlikely they'll accomplish a whole lot with them.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: But yeah, it is pretty dumb how a unit that really wants to be in CC is expected to be with units that really want to shoot.
They either need to make CC options for destroyers, a good ranged option for destroyer lords or give the Destroyer Lord My Will be Done.
My fix would be:
1) Give him WS2+ BS2+. There's no good reason for him to have crap melee ability.
2) Change his aura to "Friendly <DYNASTY> units within 6" reroll to-wound rolls of 1."
Boom. Now he still help out Destroyers if you want, but he can also buff other units - including melee ones.
Also, by not giving him MWBD, it means he's not just a direct upgrade of the Overlord.
Yeah, that's a fair change. It is strange how a unit, per the fluff, is supposed to be really good at killing yet only has a 3+ to hit. One could make the argument that its for balance reasons, as he does rerolls 1, but Space Marine characters also hit on a 2+ with rerolls of a 1, so that's a moot point.
hobojebus wrote: It's been a while but weren't billions fed into the soul forges, I don't see why we couldn't have warriors be a horde element to the army.
Yep, the entire necrontyr race. Its just that compared to Imperial worlds there aren't many Tomb Worlds. Or at least that was in the implication in the 3rd ed codex.
The difference there, however, is that not every human is a soldier, but every necron is.
Necrons aren't horde or elite... they're MEQ, sitting in the middle of the two extremes. Necrons have a troop choice that's "kinda horde-ish" in warriors and a troop choice that's "kinda elite-ish" in immortals but a warrior isn't a guardsman and an immortal isn't a grey knight.
Grimgold wrote: No synergy, no units in our army really synergize well with each other. This has everything to do with our HQ models and special characters having bad rules.
Spoiler:
I'd just like to give one example of some of our anti-synergy, if I may. Namely, the Destroyer Lord.
Now, the Destroyer Lord used to just be a regular Necron Lord (who was our main HQ back before all this Overlord nonsense) mounted on a Destroyer Body. He was just our equivalent of an HQ with a Jetbike. That was important because it meant he had the same synergies and combat abilities as a regular Necron Lord (albeit with +1T). The only thing that changed was that his movement speed was doubled - allowing him to hang out with Wraiths, Scarabs or such.
Then in 5th, the fluff was altered such that Destroyers - including Destroyer Lords - were all insane Daleks who exterminate anything and everything that isn't them. Sigh. Functionally, however, Destroyer Lords basically became Destroyer Overlords in terms of stats (with Necron Lords being nerfed down to 1W demi-HQs). They were pretty good and, IIRC, were used a great deal with Wraiths (who might have otherwise struggled with heavy armour and vehicles).
Why this history lesson, you ask? Well, things changed in 7th when some pillock on the design team decided that Destroyer Lords should go back to being the equivalents of Necron Lords, rather than Overlords. So when all our Overlords were upgraded to WS5 BS5, Destroyer Lords were left at WS4 BS4. Worse still, the aforementioned pillock thought to himself 'hey, why are Necron Lords going around with Wraiths? They should be hanging out with their own kind'. So 7th also gave us the Destroyer Cult Formation, which gave the Destroyer Lord an aura that buffed nearby Destroyers. The only problem is that Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are ranged units (with ranges of 24" and 36", respectively), whilst the Destroyer Lord is a melee unit.
And now 8th has continued this proud trend with the Destroyer Lord's stats (WS3+, BS3+, whilst our other HQs are WS2+, BS2+) and inbuilt aura. The latter allows all nearby Destroyers to reroll to-wound rolls of 1... when shooting. Just to clarify, the Destroyer Lord has access to 4 weapons. 1 of them has a ranged attack (with the range of a pistol). So, most of the time, the Destroyer Lord is going to have anti-synergy with his own aura.
Hence, as it stands, we have what amounts to a fast, dedicated-melee HQ, who is only able to buff two long-rage, shooty units. On top of that, whilst every other HQ in the game gets to keep their stats when they take a bike or jump pack, ours has to trade WS and BS for the privilege.
To be fair, destroyers now have 2 attacks, so they can be good in CC against weakened targets.
But yeah, it is pretty dumb how a unit that really wants to be in CC is expected to be with units that really want to shoot.
They either need to make CC options for destroyers, a good ranged option for destroyer lords or give the Destroyer Lord My Will be Done.
A unit of 3 Destroyers puts out the same attacks as a basic 5 man TAC squad, nothing to be concerned about. In dire straights, may be worth the charge if the final kill/objective was guaranteed. Now if you could give the unit warscythes.. now that's a fast hard hitting unit perfectly supported by the Destroyer Lord.
As for how individual necrons rate in fluff, the noble frames are as strong and as tough as custodes, tougher actually because they can recover from wounds that would kill custodes. Immotek, who does not claim to be the best fighter in the necrons, defeated Helbrecht the chapter master of the black templars in single combat. Helbretch was far more skilled than Immotek, and the Storm lord won the fight purely on being tougher and stronger. That's one of the best chapter masters in a duel getting beat by someone who isn't even in same league as him. So could Immotek take on a primarch, not a chance, but then again he is far from the top of the food chain when it comes to dueling skills.
If we get to see someone like the as yet unnamed leader of the triarch praetorians, you'll probably have an opponent worthy of a primarch. As for C'Tam shards, they are on par with an the avatar of khaine, which is a tough fight but stacked in a primarchs favor. Transcendent C'Tan are supposed to be much more powerful, but the rules have never lived up to the fluff on that one. A full powered C'Tan would be the kind of opponent only the Emperor would dream of taking on in single combat, as they are beings who arsenal includes time travel, and the ability to transmute matter into new configurations (including into anti-matter), turn off fundamental forces of nature like gravity or nuclear strong force, in addition to creating wormholes and black holes.
As for how GW will fix units like destroyers I think it's just as likely to go the other way, they make destroyers less cool, so they can reduce the price on them (to say jetbike price ranges of less than 30 points including kit) so we can take enough of them to make a difference. If we could squeeze in 9 destroyers, 3 heavy destroyers, and a dlord for under 500 points it would be a sea change for necrons.
I'd like to just see gauss all get rending. Leave it at -1, -2 whatever... on a 6+ they get -4 AP. This would allow anything with gauss to glance vehicles and units quite easily again. For anything with a 3+ save it's effectively doing mortal wounds. This would instantly make gauss a scary option again and doesn't overly buff the army.
Tesla needs to be fixed with 6+ is 3 hits, but additionally, we need more +1 to hit. The ubiquitous -1 to hit from most every army out there makes Tesla a non-option in the game now.
valdier wrote: I'd like to just see gauss all get rending. Leave it at -1, -2 whatever... on a 6+ they get -4 AP. This would allow anything with gauss to glance vehicles and units quite easily again. For anything with a 3+ save it's effectively doing mortal wounds. This would instantly make gauss a scary option again and doesn't overly buff the army.
Tesla needs to be fixed with 6+ is 3 hits, but additionally, we need more +1 to hit. The ubiquitous -1 to hit from most every army out there makes Tesla a non-option in the game now.
I'd actually prefer to see Gauss get +1 Damage for 6's instead of better AP.
Galas wrote: Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.
Why is it people want the same kinds of units across all armies? The point of having different factions is to have a different style of play and different wargear. No, I don't want Necrons to have stuff like everyone else's.
Galas wrote: Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.
Honestly, I'd rather they stay at mid-long range shooting platforms. I think all they need is to be made cheaper. They just don't have the damage output to be worth their current cost.
What I don't like is that the Destroyer Lord only exists to babysit them. As out only fast HQ (and a melee one at that), I want him to be able to buff stuff like Wraiths and Triarch Praetorians.
Galas wrote: Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.
Why is it people want the same kinds of units across all armies? The point of having different factions is to have a different style of play and different wargear. No, I don't want Necrons to have stuff like everyone else's.
Whats the problem with meele destroyers? Is not like Necrons dont have allready units with spears/halberds.
Galas wrote: Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.
Why is it people want the same kinds of units across all armies? The point of having different factions is to have a different style of play and different wargear. No, I don't want Necrons to have stuff like everyone else's.
Whats the problem with meele destroyers? Is not like Necrons dont have allready units with spears/halberds.
Destroyers already have a melee version in the DLord. Look, I'm all for Destroyers getting more options, I would love for a new kit that gave them Tesla Cannons and maybe some other cool stuff but the spear thing just feels like, 'lets make a Shining Spears unit for the Necrons'. No thanks.
Galas wrote: Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.
Honestly, I'd rather they stay at mid-long range shooting platforms. I think all they need is to be made cheaper. They just don't have the damage output to be worth their current cost.
What I don't like is that the Destroyer Lord only exists to babysit them. As out only fast HQ (and a melee one at that), I want him to be able to buff stuff like Wraiths and Triarch Praetorians.
Galas wrote: Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.
Why is it people want the same kinds of units across all armies? The point of having different factions is to have a different style of play and different wargear. No, I don't want Necrons to have stuff like everyone else's.
How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed. No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.
How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed.
No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.
I imagine it was dropped because the unit that used it (Pariahs) was also dropped.
Strangely, even at the time, Necron HQs were never given the option to purchase a warscythe with a built-in Gauss Blaster.
How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed. No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.
I imagine it was dropped because the unit that used it (Pariahs) was also dropped.
Strangely, even at the time, Necron HQs were never given the option to purchase a warscythe with a built-in Gauss Blaster.
Would be nice, though.
That's a lazy reason though. Just because it was a signature weapon for one unit doesn't mean no one can have it.
Of course, with the retcon such a reason doesn't exist, so there's no reason why Overlords can't have it now.
How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed.
No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.
I imagine it was dropped because the unit that used it (Pariahs) was also dropped.
Strangely, even at the time, Necron HQs were never given the option to purchase a warscythe with a built-in Gauss Blaster.
Would be nice, though.
That's a lazy reason though. Just because it was a signature weapon for one unit doesn't mean no one can have it.
Sometimes I think GW doesn't understand necrons.
Oh, I completely agree. I was more just puzzled about why Necron Lords weren't given that option in the first place.
How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed.
No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.
I imagine it was dropped because the unit that used it (Pariahs) was also dropped.
Strangely, even at the time, Necron HQs were never given the option to purchase a warscythe with a built-in Gauss Blaster.
Would be nice, though.
That's a lazy reason though. Just because it was a signature weapon for one unit doesn't mean no one can have it.
Sometimes I think GW doesn't understand necrons.
Oh, I completely agree. I was more just puzzled about why Necron Lords weren't given that option in the first place.
I think it makes sense. To me, Pariahs are supposed to be the next generation of necron, so it seems fitting they would have an advanced weapon that combined the best "standard" infantry weapon (gauss blaster) with the best melee weapon (warscythe).
Lords were important, but they were still the old model of necron; a T-800 compared to a T-1000
If you had melee focused destroyers how would you mechanically differentiate them from praetorians or wraiths? Necrons kind of already have the big floaty dude punching you in the face thing covered. If I could pick another variant for destroyers I'd like to see tesla destroyers, armed with a tesla cannon. Maybe make them faster since they don't need gravitic stabilization. You'd need to bring the tesla cannon up to snuff, maybe make it assault 4, just imagine a group of six destroyers floating around averaging 36ish shots per round of str 6 ap nothing.
Well, Necrons need a a complete overhaul.
Gauss weapons are almost useless vs. tanks now. Stripping points is not really working if the enemy tank has 12-16 wounds and a 3+ save.
Wraiths have also too less damage output with D1 atm.
I'm curious how DW will resolve this?
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Necrons need a a complete overhaul.
Gauss weapons are almost useless vs. tanks now. Stripping points is not really working if the enemy tank has 12-16 wounds and a 3+ save.
Wraiths have also too less damage output with D1 atm.
I'm curious how DW will resolve this?
Hopefully with +1 damage on Wound rolls of 6+ on all Gauss weapons. That's my big hope for getting more out of Gauss when the codex comes.
valdier wrote: I'd like to just see gauss all get rending. Leave it at -1, -2 whatever... on a 6+ they get -4 AP. This would allow anything with gauss to glance vehicles and units quite easily again. For anything with a 3+ save it's effectively doing mortal wounds. This would instantly make gauss a scary option again and doesn't overly buff the army.
Tesla needs to be fixed with 6+ is 3 hits, but additionally, we need more +1 to hit. The ubiquitous -1 to hit from most every army out there makes Tesla a non-option in the game now.
I'd actually prefer to see Gauss get +1 Damage for 6's instead of better AP.
I prefer always wound on 5s+
Automatically Appended Next Post: Destroyers are destroyers. Should be cheaper. Cheap D3wound option.
I'd like to see lychguard, pretorians and deathmark get some love too.
niv-mizzet wrote: If I were given design of crons, I'd make RP not a random effect. You would have such-and-such amount of reanimation, scaling with army size, and you could use it to reanimate any models with RP, at a rate dependent on the unit, with a discount if near a cryptek or res orb.
This would lead to an interesting situation where players would bring balanced TAC lists, and then during a game would have the option to use their reanimation on the things they need more of. For example in a game against knights/superheavies, they'd just leave the warriors dead and keep rezzing the heavy destroyers with all their RP.
It would really make them feel like a calculating advanced race with a revival mechanic as opposed to "robotic nurgle machines."
Horrible amounts of book keeping.
I don't think keeping track of one number, similar to command points, would be that much bookkeeping. While I would be hesitant to introduce something this complicated to armies in general, as an army specific main rule, I feel it has the space to be a little more complicated than most rules
valdier wrote: I'd like to just see gauss all get rending. Leave it at -1, -2 whatever... on a 6+ they get -4 AP. This would allow anything with gauss to glance vehicles and units quite easily again. For anything with a 3+ save it's effectively doing mortal wounds. This would instantly make gauss a scary option again and doesn't overly buff the army.
Tesla needs to be fixed with 6+ is 3 hits, but additionally, we need more +1 to hit. The ubiquitous -1 to hit from most every army out there makes Tesla a non-option in the game now.
I'd actually prefer to see Gauss get +1 Damage for 6's instead of better AP.
I prefer always wound on 5s+
Automatically Appended Next Post: Destroyers are destroyers. Should be cheaper. Cheap D3wound option.
I'd like to see lychguard, pretorians and deathmark get some love too.
"Always wound on 5+" would be a terrible rule for gauss. It'd do nothing on anything stronger than a flayer, and even flayers would only get an upgrade against land raiders.
valdier wrote: I'd like to just see gauss all get rending. Leave it at -1, -2 whatever... on a 6+ they get -4 AP. This would allow anything with gauss to glance vehicles and units quite easily again. For anything with a 3+ save it's effectively doing mortal wounds. This would instantly make gauss a scary option again and doesn't overly buff the army.
Tesla needs to be fixed with 6+ is 3 hits, but additionally, we need more +1 to hit. The ubiquitous -1 to hit from most every army out there makes Tesla a non-option in the game now.
I'd actually prefer to see Gauss get +1 Damage for 6's instead of better AP.
I prefer always wound on 5s+
Automatically Appended Next Post: Destroyers are destroyers. Should be cheaper. Cheap D3wound option.
I'd like to see lychguard, pretorians and deathmark get some love too.
"Always wound on 5+" would be a terrible rule for gauss. It'd do nothing on anything stronger than a flayer, and even flayers would only get an upgrade against land raiders.
Yeah, and there's already a weapon that can do that - feeder mandibles.
I'd much rather they inflict an additional point of damage on a 6 to wound, in addition to the -1 armor mod they all have, because that is pretty useful.
Lots of big vehicules / monsters have T8+.
Doing one more point of DMG would be too strong (not that i wouldn't like that, but they won't go there). Any elite infantry with 2PV will suddenly become vulnerable to a swarm of warriors. Gauss has always been about destroying big stuff.
Plus if you have the same mecanic as tesla (on 6+), why would you take tesla then?
Tesla would be good against numbers, gauss would be good against heavy targets.
2 damage is wasted on 1w models.
With a single shot of tesla you can potentially kill 3 1w models.
With a single shot of gauss you could potentially kill 1 1w model, like now.
However, as gauss would still have a -1 modifier, it would be more effective against multiwound targets than tesla, as they tend to have good armor as well.
Da W wrote: Lots of big vehicules / monsters have T8+.
Doing one more point of DMG would be too strong (not that i wouldn't like that, but they won't go there). Any elite infantry with 2PV will suddenly become vulnerable to a swarm of warriors. Gauss has always been about destroying big stuff.
Plus if you have the same mecanic as tesla (on 6+), why would you take tesla then?
Necron damage output is so pitiful at the moment that +1D for 6+ to Wound on Gauss probably wouldn't be broken. Obviously you'd probably not then want to make a bunch of the other changes people mentioned here to make Gauss better but I don't think it would be too bad.
Tesla is completely different - it works off the to-Hit roll for starters. It would also provide a good contrast between the two with Tesla being anti-horde and Gauss being anti-big stuff. Remember all those 2W models still get their save, albeit at -1.
Da W wrote: Lots of big vehicules / monsters have T8+.
Doing one more point of DMG would be too strong (not that i wouldn't like that, but they won't go there). Any elite infantry with 2PV will suddenly become vulnerable to a swarm of warriors. Gauss has always been about destroying big stuff.
Plus if you have the same mecanic as tesla (on 6+), why would you take tesla then?
As it should be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Tesla stuff is good right now (Tesla Immortals) with the glaring exception of the Destructor. It needs D3 damage so that when it finally gets past the armor save it can, in theory, make it worthwhile. Fingers crossed.
I kind of like where the gauss is right now. Makes it good against armor. Before it was only good against vehicles, that didn't make any sense. I also like it simple.
Necron gauss can easyily be buffed in other ways such as a 1CP stratagem that gives for example +1 on wound rolls. That would increase the damage output from Warriors and Immortals by 50% against T7 targets. Not sure if it's too much, but i believe it should be a cheap stratagem.
That would also help Gauss cannons tremendously because they are in a weird spot. Although it would perhaps make Heavy gauss unbalanced wounding on a 2+.
As for tesla, making it explode on a natural roll of 6 would give it both a boost and a nerf. A boost against -1 armies that are everywhere now (unless used with MWBD) and a nerf when used with MWBD on "regular" armies. I'd prefer consistency and also not having to babysit my tesla Immortals with an OL.
I really dislike the -1 to hit chapter tactics, it's such a nobrainer. I hope Necrons will get several dyansty traits that are balanced instead of that. Although a -1 to hit would make a silvertide army very viable.
Your proposed stratagem is identical to Veterans of the Long War, which is a 1 CP stratagem that can be used on any CSM infantry. If it isn't broken on obliterators it wouldn't be broken on heavy destroyers.
took a look at my national auction site and ebay.
seeing how cheap some preowned nec armys goes for, i desided to jump on now and get me some cheap necrons.
its not like they can be any worse then they currently are from a rule point when the codex drops.
FrozenDwarf wrote: took a look at my national auction site and ebay.
seeing how cheap some preowned nec armys goes for, i desided to jump on now and get me some cheap necrons.
its not like they can be any worse then they currently are from a rule point when the codex drops.
Probably the smart way to go as it seems very unlikely that GW will be producing any new models for them.
This turns into an ""I want this'' tread and ''my plan is better than yours''.
GW already decided.
For game building purpose, buffing gauss will have to be made on all gauss stuff (S4 AP-1, S5 AP-2, S5 AP-2 D3wound, S9 Ap-4 D6W). Just looking at immortals i wonder how you will justify getting tesla then. Buff one thing to remove another, that ain't called fixing.
Da W wrote: This turns into an ""I want this'' tread and ''my plan is better than yours''.
GW already decided.
For game building purpose, buffing gauss will have to be made on all gauss stuff (S4 AP-1, S5 AP-2, S5 AP-2 D3wound, S9 Ap-4 D6W). Just looking at immortals i wonder how you will justify getting tesla then. Buff one thing to remove another, that ain't called fixing.
That's true. It's not that simple to buff or nerf something.
There's nothing wrong with "I want this'' and ''my plan is better than yours'' as long as people can behave.
I for the fact know that my plan is better than all of yours, why? My mom told me so.
I like the idea of necrons being back on top as much as the next guy (maybe more), but there is a real problem for balancing necrons beyond the awful index stuff we got (which I'm confident GW can and will fix). That problem will be finding a balance point where they can compete with soup factions like chaos, imperium, and eldar without overwhelming single codex armies. It's the same problem balancing tau and orks will face.
Tune them too much or make them too well rounded and the casual scene will suffer since most people play casual with a single codex. Tune them for a balance point around single codex, and you'll never see them in the winners circle at GTs because they can't soup like the codexes they will be balanced around.
For what it's worth I think they should be balanced around other codexes, Soup can be fixed, but an overtuned codex is much harder to deal with. with that in mind, I doubt Necrons, Tau, or Orks will be frequent flyers to the GT winners circles even after they get codexes.
To be honest people will probably complain about Necrons if they're anything other than bad. I've played stall/defense-heavy playstyles in enough different systems to know people get salty when they can't leafblower the enemy as much as they like; strategies that are resistant to being killed get people upset because they feel like their army doesn't function as well as it does against any other opponent, even if the matchup is ultimately balanced.
Grimgold wrote: I like the idea of necrons being back on top as much as the next guy (maybe more), but there is a real problem for balancing necrons beyond the awful index stuff we got (which I'm confident GW can and will fix). That problem will be finding a balance point where they can compete with soup factions like chaos, imperium, and eldar without overwhelming single codex armies. It's the same problem balancing tau and orks will face.
Tune them too much or make them too well rounded and the casual scene will suffer since most people play casual with a single codex. Tune them for a balance point around single codex, and you'll never see them in the winners circle at GTs because they can't soup like the codexes they will be balanced around.
For what it's worth I think they should be balanced around other codexes, Soup can be fixed, but an overtuned codex is much harder to deal with. with that in mind, I doubt Necrons, Tau, or Orks will be frequent flyers to the GT winners circles even after they get codexes.
I think this is pretty spot on, it would be nicer of they fixed soups before finished our codex. Would make it easier to power our codex appropriately as you say
