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Da W wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I read the original post but it does not really explain why certain units suck.

My plan was stalkers, flayed ones, warriors, basically anything I can convert the crap out of to make it look different.

Are the FW units crap too?

Triarch Stalkers are decent. Flayed Ones are bad because they can't guarantee a charge the turn they come in and have counter-synergy with Overlords (you can't MWBD them until the next turn), Warriors are bad because they get shredded by morale (in the sense that losing even a single Warrior to morale screws you out of RP forever) and are largely toothless compared to Immortals.

Necrons have some passable units like the Stalker, but they lack any grade A unit that can really sell the army and give you something functional to build around. Tesla Immortals are close but get weaker with every army that comes out with a -1 to hit.

Flayed ones you use with Ctan deceiver, Nemezor + Vanguard or the veil of darnkess. Teleport, pouf, charge. Flayed ones are actually pretty damn good with this 80 X 5-points soldiers meta. WIth Ctan its a cumulative -2 on morale check.
I also tried 2 Triarch Stalker + 3 Doomsday arks. That's 1000 point you can still have plenty on warriors. Hit or miss, but promising. Quantum shield en masse, stay away from those 2-DMG weapons. I use stalker with twin heavy guass cannon, 36''. In theory you can bring down an imperial knight per turn, but those d3 shots, you often get 1!!!!

Want to try 3X3 heavy destroyers? Be my guest, just stay hidden until you want to actually kill something. You shouldn't miss.
Plain destroyers though, they have low range and are weak. Plus its a bullet magnet.

We NEED open-top ghost ark though. Zoom through the map with 10 warriors on board, load of shots and get those objectives!

6 Wraith + Ctan Nightbringner, promising. Just take a flank and move up field, no regard for loses as long as your Ctan stay protected and can get to a precious target.
Monoliths at 300 pts, i would always use them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
True remove that Ctan deceiver thing. Veil of darkness thought, 8'' charge, can use MWBD for extra 1'', 7 on 2 dice is an average and at worst use a CP to reroll. So they usually make it.

Vanguard obyron stuff is expensive, but fun, and does other tricks too.

Da W wrote:
Vanguard obyron stuff is expensive, but fun, and does other tricks too.

And also restricted to a specific dynasty.

Hopefully the other dynasties get bonuses strong enough to justify them over the glut of powerful special characters the Sautekh get.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Hopefully the other dynasties get bonuses strong enough to justify them over the glut of powerful special characters the Sautekh get.

Yup. I am a little worried about that. It's an issue with Tau too. T'au sept is full of characters. Then Farsight has Farsight himself. And then.... nothing for the others.

While every Sm chapter gets fleshed out with at least a character or 2. But all the Xenos armies have been considered one big thing for so long that once they get broken up into all these sub factions they just don't have the characters to really flesh them out.

It's actually a 9-inch charge through the veil of darkness. It would be 8 if you were at exactly 9 but the rule on veil says all models must be set up more than 9 inches from an enemy model.

I'd like to see a stratagem that can be played immediately after a unit is destroyed but allows them to make a RP roll to see how many stand back up. That could be a crazy clutch stratagem since you'd get at least one more RP roll on your turn.

Hoodwink wrote:
I'd like to see a stratagem that can be played immediately after a unit is destroyed but allows them to make a RP roll to see how many stand back up. That could be a crazy clutch stratagem since you'd get at least one more RP roll on your turn.

If that stratagem exists it's going to be the necron players bread and butter.

A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.

Well if it triggers a RP roll it wouldn't be making a NEW unit (which is what costs the reinforcement points). It would just be bringing them back (probably just before the last model is removed). I mean, doesn't matter. It's just wishful thinking until we see the dex.

Just make it something like 2 CP. Then it's not something spammable by any means. And if there are more guns or people fighting, it's not like it would help that much since the next set of attacks would just wipe your few models you got back.

From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.

 BDconrad wrote:
From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.

What? I have never seen anything like an Overlord being able to stand up to a Primarch, much less multiple at the same time?


And I don't think we should go full elite. There is enough space in the dex to balance between having larger swathes of warriors or Immortals, and then going more elite with Praetorians, lychguard and the like.

Since there is some curiosity, here are the big issues

Our transports are literally the worst in the game, and we are a short range army with a 5" move. Tomb world deploy is neat sounding, but awfully implemented. Units in tomb world deploy count as being in reserves as opposed to being in a transport, and since you won't deploy first turn, you effectively only have two turns to deploy everything you have in TWD. A character takes up an entire deployment cycle, so you don't bring them. Which leaves units "disembarking" from TWD without leadership support, and then there is the whole problem that units exiting tomb world deploy don't get a movement phase. I could go on, but let's leave it at our transports have awful rules which forces our entire army on foot.

Reanimation protocols has uneven performance, and is too easily bypassed at the points values people choose to play at. Honestly I think it's the uneven effectiveness that is going to doom RP, if it were just an issue with it needing stratagems to prop it up GW would probably stick by it, but at the start collecting box range and just about thru 1000 points RP is super tough to get around.

Lack of special weapons, Necrons with the exception of two units are all mono-weapon units. We also don't have devastators or the like which are cheap dudes with big guns, all of our interesting weapons are on expensive models, so we can bring less big guns to begin with, and to neuter necrons you just kill the models with guns that can hurt you. To get the equivalent of 4 grav cannons (and yes i know grav cannons suck), it's over twice the investment for necrons as it is for space marines. This has always been the issue with necrons, but in previous editions warriors and immortals were equipped with weapons that were dangerous to all target profiles, and our destroyers were t5 with two wounds, so very hard to take out in a single shot. For necrons to function with the way the heavy and special weapons are divided up (eg: being able to operate without them if need be), every necron weapon needs to be dangerous to just about any target, maybe not optimal, but at least workable. Now with middlign strength and only a -1 ap, the only thing gauss flayers are dangerous to is MEQ.

Near universally overcost, you could make the argument that warriors, immortals, and scarabs are appropriately priced, but outside of them the rest of the army does to little for too many points. The problem is that our support units have great stats, and they pay for them even if those stats don't end up being really useful. Destroyers have a 10" move, 3 wounds, toughness 5, can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty, and reroll ones to hit. You pay for all of those stats when all you want is the gauss cannon that comes with him. That means that point for point his offense is awful, and his toughness is significantly less than in the previous edition, where a single las cannon hit didn't stand a chance of killing one. Now a las cannon will ace a destroyer 2/3 of the time.

No synergy, no units in our army really synergize well with each other. This has everything to do with our HQ models and special characters having bad rules. Some of our special characters don't have dynasty keywords, which means that they can't embark, can't benefit from buffs, etc.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.

Well if it triggers a RP roll it wouldn't be making a NEW unit (which is what costs the reinforcement points). It would just be bringing them back (probably just before the last model is removed). I mean, doesn't matter. It's just wishful thinking until we see the dex.

That's my issue with allowing a RP roll to bring a unit back; it's effectively a new unit, and without it costing reinforcement points that just becomes extra troops. If Necrons get to bring squads back without Reinforce Points, I want my Tyranid Tervigons to spawn Termagants without costing Reinforcement Points.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.

Well if it triggers a RP roll it wouldn't be making a NEW unit (which is what costs the reinforcement points). It would just be bringing them back (probably just before the last model is removed). I mean, doesn't matter. It's just wishful thinking until we see the dex.

That's my issue with allowing a RP roll to bring a unit back; it's effectively a new unit, and without it costing reinforcement points that just becomes extra troops. If Necrons get to bring squads back without Reinforce Points, I want my Tyranid Tervigons to spawn Termagants without costing Reinforcement Points.

That's childish. RP is the bread and butter of the necron, and unless you want all of the above suggested ideas to apply (cut point cost, improve weapons), the only way to make this army work is to make RP work. So its not reinforcement, RP works if you have 1 warrior left, a 2CP or 3CP stratagem would make RP work with 0 warrior left. Marginal at best. Won't be able to use 2 CP to reroll 1s on RP, or to RP wraiths, or to make all RP to 4s without cryptek.

The rational for whole units not costing points is the same for single models not costing points - its technically the same unit, as such isn't the same as deploying a new squad.

Tervigons are generating new units. Those termagants were not on the table before, but they are now.
A wiped necron unit was on the table to begin with, and as such isn't a new unit.

Granted, by now I expect the codex to be pretty much fixed, so conjecture is just daydreaming.

I personally would like to see them slide back towards elite army over horde. Or maybe just be playable either way, but that seems hard to balance. This is all just preference mind, hopefully they can make the army work for at least one or the other, just if I had to choose myself I'd go for a more elite xenos army over a horde theme for them.

But perhaps you could make the core of the army warriors for a horde-based approach and immortals for an elite-based approach.

But the reason is, many Xenos forces are already more horde-oriented, as pointed out earlier. Tyranids of course, and Orks, and even Tau to a large degree field a lot more models than a SM army. Eldar can be as well, but less so in general. One of the whole reasons I had a tyranid and a necron army was to swap between elite smaller army size and mass-o-models swarms, and it'd be nice to see them differentiated. They don't need to be Grey Knights/Custodes level of small-but-elite, but my preference is for the focus on their (Necron) insane superscience and "unkillable" parts of the fluff over the "infinite legions" part. However if both can be supported that'd be pretty awesome.

Merkabah wrote:
It's actually a 9-inch charge through the veil of darkness. It would be 8 if you were at exactly 9 but the rule on veil says all models must be set up more than 9 inches from an enemy model.

The difference with the Veil is that you put it on an overlord that can give them MWBD , and then it's only an 8" charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
I'd like to see a stratagem that can be played immediately after a unit is destroyed but allows them to make a RP roll to see how many stand back up. That could be a crazy clutch stratagem since you'd get at least one more RP roll on your turn.

If that stratagem exists it's going to be the necron players bread and butter.

Unless it happens in the fight phase on your turn. Meaning they just get mawled again in your enemies fight phase.

torblind wrote:

Merkabah wrote:
It's actually a 9-inch charge through the veil of darkness. It would be 8 if you were at exactly 9 but the rule on veil says all models must be set up more than 9 inches from an enemy model.

The difference with the Veil is that you put it on an overlord that can give them MWBD , and then it's only an 8" charge.

He was arguing that it was a 7" charge with MWBD. I was just giving the needed base charge roll necessary without. Guess I could have made that more clear

Resurrection habilities dont cost points. Celestine, Guilliman, the avatar resurrection stratagem, chaos boom stratagem (you destroy your character and create a dp or spawn) etc...
So a stratagem to roll RP after a unit is killed shouldnt cost reinforcement points.

.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
A stratagem like that would most likely cost reinforcement points, based on previous precedent. Maybe instead we could get a stratagem that lets you just interrupt your opponent's turn to roll RP for a unit? Opponent gets a unit down to one model, before they can start shooting with the next unit to finish it off you tell them you're rolling RP. Would likely be very frustrating to play against, which is one of the things I like about playing a highly defensive army like Necrons.

Well if it triggers a RP roll it wouldn't be making a NEW unit (which is what costs the reinforcement points). It would just be bringing them back (probably just before the last model is removed). I mean, doesn't matter. It's just wishful thinking until we see the dex.

That's my issue with allowing a RP roll to bring a unit back; it's effectively a new unit, and without it costing reinforcement points that just becomes extra troops. If Necrons get to bring squads back without Reinforce Points, I want my Tyranid Tervigons to spawn Termagants without costing Reinforcement Points.

Not the same thing. You're getting new gants, not reviving slain ones.

Necrons need a buff, not another reason for them to be sold en masse on eBay. Forcing necrons to pay reinforcement points for a core mechanic that is built into the price of the unit is ridiculous.

When fighting Grey Knights, Daemons can respawn units for CP, so there is some precedent.

Maybe making RP more like Feel no Pain, but allowing strategems, Items and buff auras allow additional rolls later on could mitigate the strength of focus fire (since you would still have to punch through the initial RP rolls to take the unit down)

 Sasori wrote:

 BDconrad wrote:
From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.

What? I have never seen anything like an Overlord being able to stand up to a Primarch, much less multiple at the same time?


And I don't think we should go full elite. There is enough space in the dex to balance between having larger swathes of warriors or Immortals, and then going more elite with Praetorians, lychguard and the like.

Fluff aside (some poeple are saying they've an elite army fluff wise but... are they? to my knowledge it's not that they're super deadly individually it's just that they keep coming back and most of their tech cuts through armor without a thought but the same could about eldar really - minus the ressurection part ofc) i hope they don't become an elite army, not even close. It's fun on GK and Custodes and such but with 8th (and presumably dex-crons themselves) being so stratagem reliant, having expensive battalions with no possibility to slot in cheap allies is a pretty instant death-knell

If I were given design of crons, I'd make RP not a random effect. You would have such-and-such amount of reanimation, scaling with army size, and you could use it to reanimate any models with RP, at a rate dependent on the unit, with a discount if near a cryptek or res orb.

This would lead to an interesting situation where players would bring balanced TAC lists, and then during a game would have the option to use their reanimation on the things they need more of. For example in a game against knights/superheavies, they'd just leave the warriors dead and keep rezzing the heavy destroyers with all their RP.

It would really make them feel like a calculating advanced race with a revival mechanic as opposed to "robotic nurgle machines."

Interesting approach, but it does seem to be a bit of book keeping in a game that already has a bit of book keeping.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
If I were given design of crons, I'd make RP not a random effect. You would have such-and-such amount of reanimation, scaling with army size, and you could use it to reanimate any models with RP, at a rate dependent on the unit, with a discount if near a cryptek or res orb.

This would lead to an interesting situation where players would bring balanced TAC lists, and then during a game would have the option to use their reanimation on the things they need more of. For example in a game against knights/superheavies, they'd just leave the warriors dead and keep rezzing the heavy destroyers with all their RP.

It would really make them feel like a calculating advanced race with a revival mechanic as opposed to "robotic nurgle machines."

Horrible amounts of book keeping.

Necron has always been about fielding a gak-load of warriors, then add support. More so in THIS meta, if you field an elite army you will get slaugthered as you will never have enough attacks / shots to hit all miniatures of the swarm standing in front of you. You need warriors, 40-60, and rapid fire, that won't change.

I don't know if they'll fix gauss anti-vehicule though.
Back in the days, a 20-warrior blob would get 40 shots on a rhino, 30 hits, 5 of which would wound, which was enough.

Now having -1AP army-wide is nice, but not nearly enough.
What if gauss always wound on 5s? (like scarabs). Those S4 guns would work well vs T8+ stuff. That 40 shots would make 10 wounds (before saves), no bad. Now if you have 40-60 warriors, you could bring down a monolith.

Necrons need a price decrease. Most of the infantry is fine, but vehicles and the more specialized units are way too pricey for what they can do. GA needs a heavy point drop, Destroyers need to be 20 points less and barges and flyers need some points shaved as well.
I find it really difficult to compose a list because of how expensive everything is, unless I just want to spam warriors, immortals and scarabs.

 BDconrad wrote:
From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.

err where was this stated - seems to be completely contrary to the fluff.

Necron warriors are resilient and keep getting back up with good guns - that's it. They are not Elite - they do have Elite specialists - but then who doesn't?

Necron Characters have cool tech but so do lots of characters.

Now if you talking about a C'tan then yeah you have a point.

While every Sm chapter gets fleshed out with at least a character or 2.

At least one First Founding Chapter has none - Iron Hands. The Ultramarines do get loads and the Black Templars a few, rest get one if that.

 BDconrad wrote:
From what's been spinning around the rumor mill, Necrons are getting some drastic changes. I hope they conform more to fluff, and become the more elite super power they sound like. Having hoards of necrons seems kind of off to me. Fluff dictates that very few necrons have the destructive force of several hundred marines, right? One Overlord has been sated to have the capability to stand up to multiple primarchs at a time! I really hope they become more elite, just for fluff reasons.

Except that's wrong. Necrons have never been an elite army like Grey knights, even in the fluff.
Hell, their tagline on the 3rd edition codex is "Their Number Is Legion, Their Name is Death"

They aren't really a hoard army either, as per the fluff there's only a small number of necron worlds compared to the vast number of Human and Ork worlds. They are somewhere in between.