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Basically there are two fluffy approaches for modern necrons and there is no reason you can't make both viable. One is the classic silver tide from back in third - big blocks of warriors that are very hard to remove advancing up the field supported by buffing units and flanked by fast moving hard hitters. The other is the fast moving raiders - smaller units with less support that are in fast moving, tough vehicles that envelop the enemy and employ devastating short range weapons to pick apart the opposition. Throw in a few teleportation shenanigans to both approaches, and that's how necrons should play. We'll see what the new codex has in store.

 Grimgold wrote:
No synergy, no units in our army really synergize well with each other. This has everything to do with our HQ models and special characters having bad rules.

I'd just like to give one example of some of our anti-synergy, if I may. Namely, the Destroyer Lord.

Now, the Destroyer Lord used to just be a regular Necron Lord (who was our main HQ back before all this Overlord nonsense) mounted on a Destroyer Body. He was just our equivalent of an HQ with a Jetbike. That was important because it meant he had the same synergies and combat abilities as a regular Necron Lord (albeit with +1T). The only thing that changed was that his movement speed was doubled - allowing him to hang out with Wraiths, Scarabs or such.

Then in 5th, the fluff was altered such that Destroyers - including Destroyer Lords - were all insane Daleks who exterminate anything and everything that isn't them. Sigh. Functionally, however, Destroyer Lords basically became Destroyer Overlords in terms of stats (with Necron Lords being nerfed down to 1W demi-HQs). They were pretty good and, IIRC, were used a great deal with Wraiths (who might have otherwise struggled with heavy armour and vehicles).

Why this history lesson, you ask? Well, things changed in 7th when some pillock on the design team decided that Destroyer Lords should go back to being the equivalents of Necron Lords, rather than Overlords. So when all our Overlords were upgraded to WS5 BS5, Destroyer Lords were left at WS4 BS4. Worse still, the aforementioned pillock thought to himself 'hey, why are Necron Lords going around with Wraiths? They should be hanging out with their own kind'. So 7th also gave us the Destroyer Cult Formation, which gave the Destroyer Lord an aura that buffed nearby Destroyers. The only problem is that Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are ranged units (with ranges of 24" and 36", respectively), whilst the Destroyer Lord is a melee unit.

And now 8th has continued this proud trend with the Destroyer Lord's stats (WS3+, BS3+, whilst our other HQs are WS2+, BS2+) and inbuilt aura. The latter allows all nearby Destroyers to reroll to-wound rolls of 1... when shooting. Just to clarify, the Destroyer Lord has access to 4 weapons. 1 of them has a ranged attack (with the range of a pistol). So, most of the time, the Destroyer Lord is going to have anti-synergy with his own aura.

Hence, as it stands, we have what amounts to a fast, dedicated-melee HQ, who is only able to buff two long-rage, shooty units. On top of that, whilst every other HQ in the game gets to keep their stats when they take a bike or jump pack, ours has to trade WS and BS for the privilege.

 vipoid wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
No synergy, no units in our army really synergize well with each other. This has everything to do with our HQ models and special characters having bad rules.

I'd just like to give one example of some of our anti-synergy, if I may. Namely, the Destroyer Lord.

Now, the Destroyer Lord used to just be a regular Necron Lord (who was our main HQ back before all this Overlord nonsense) mounted on a Destroyer Body. He was just our equivalent of an HQ with a Jetbike. That was important because it meant he had the same synergies and combat abilities as a regular Necron Lord (albeit with +1T). The only thing that changed was that his movement speed was doubled - allowing him to hang out with Wraiths, Scarabs or such.

Then in 5th, the fluff was altered such that Destroyers - including Destroyer Lords - were all insane Daleks who exterminate anything and everything that isn't them. Sigh. Functionally, however, Destroyer Lords basically became Destroyer Overlords in terms of stats (with Necron Lords being nerfed down to 1W demi-HQs). They were pretty good and, IIRC, were used a great deal with Wraiths (who might have otherwise struggled with heavy armour and vehicles).

Why this history lesson, you ask? Well, things changed in 7th when some pillock on the design team decided that Destroyer Lords should go back to being the equivalents of Necron Lords, rather than Overlords. So when all our Overlords were upgraded to WS5 BS5, Destroyer Lords were left at WS4 BS4. Worse still, the aforementioned pillock thought to himself 'hey, why are Necron Lords going around with Wraiths? They should be hanging out with their own kind'. So 7th also gave us the Destroyer Cult Formation, which gave the Destroyer Lord an aura that buffed nearby Destroyers. The only problem is that Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are ranged units (with ranges of 24" and 36", respectively), whilst the Destroyer Lord is a melee unit.

And now 8th has continued this proud trend with the Destroyer Lord's stats (WS3+, BS3+, whilst our other HQs are WS2+, BS2+) and inbuilt aura. The latter allows all nearby Destroyers to reroll to-wound rolls of 1... when shooting. Just to clarify, the Destroyer Lord has access to 4 weapons. 1 of them has a ranged attack (with the range of a pistol). So, most of the time, the Destroyer Lord is going to have anti-synergy with his own aura.

Hence, as it stands, we have what amounts to a fast, dedicated-melee HQ, who is only able to buff two long-rage, shooty units. On top of that, whilst every other HQ in the game gets to keep their stats when they take a bike or jump pack, ours has to trade WS and BS for the privilege.

To be fair, destroyers now have 2 attacks, so they can be good in CC against weakened targets.
But yeah, it is pretty dumb how a unit that really wants to be in CC is expected to be with units that really want to shoot.
They either need to make CC options for destroyers, a good ranged option for destroyer lords or give the Destroyer Lord My Will be Done.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

To be fair, destroyers now have 2 attacks, so they can be good in CC against weakened targets.

They do indeed have 2 attacks, but with no AP and few models it's unlikely they'll accomplish a whole lot with them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But yeah, it is pretty dumb how a unit that really wants to be in CC is expected to be with units that really want to shoot.
They either need to make CC options for destroyers, a good ranged option for destroyer lords or give the Destroyer Lord My Will be Done.

My fix would be:
1) Give him WS2+ BS2+. There's no good reason for him to have crap melee ability.
2) Change his aura to "Friendly <DYNASTY> units within 6" reroll to-wound rolls of 1."

Boom. Now he still help out Destroyers if you want, but he can also buff other units - including melee ones.

Also, by not giving him MWBD, it means he's not just a direct upgrade of the Overlord.

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

To be fair, destroyers now have 2 attacks, so they can be good in CC against weakened targets.

They do indeed have 2 attacks, but with no AP and few models it's unlikely they'll accomplish a whole lot with them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But yeah, it is pretty dumb how a unit that really wants to be in CC is expected to be with units that really want to shoot.
They either need to make CC options for destroyers, a good ranged option for destroyer lords or give the Destroyer Lord My Will be Done.

My fix would be:
1) Give him WS2+ BS2+. There's no good reason for him to have crap melee ability.
2) Change his aura to "Friendly <DYNASTY> units within 6" reroll to-wound rolls of 1."

Boom. Now he still help out Destroyers if you want, but he can also buff other units - including melee ones.

Also, by not giving him MWBD, it means he's not just a direct upgrade of the Overlord.

Yeah, that's a fair change. It is strange how a unit, per the fluff, is supposed to be really good at killing yet only has a 3+ to hit. One could make the argument that its for balance reasons, as he does rerolls 1, but Space Marine characters also hit on a 2+ with rerolls of a 1, so that's a moot point.

It's been a while but weren't billions fed into the soul forges, I don't see why we couldn't have warriors be a horde element to the army.

hobojebus wrote:
It's been a while but weren't billions fed into the soul forges, I don't see why we couldn't have warriors be a horde element to the army.

Yep, the entire necrontyr race. Its just that compared to Imperial worlds there aren't many Tomb Worlds. Or at least that was in the implication in the 3rd ed codex.
The difference there, however, is that not every human is a soldier, but every necron is.

Necrons aren't horde or elite... they're MEQ, sitting in the middle of the two extremes. Necrons have a troop choice that's "kinda horde-ish" in warriors and a troop choice that's "kinda elite-ish" in immortals but a warrior isn't a guardsman and an immortal isn't a grey knight.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
No synergy, no units in our army really synergize well with each other. This has everything to do with our HQ models and special characters having bad rules.

Spoiler:

I'd just like to give one example of some of our anti-synergy, if I may. Namely, the Destroyer Lord.

Now, the Destroyer Lord used to just be a regular Necron Lord (who was our main HQ back before all this Overlord nonsense) mounted on a Destroyer Body. He was just our equivalent of an HQ with a Jetbike. That was important because it meant he had the same synergies and combat abilities as a regular Necron Lord (albeit with +1T). The only thing that changed was that his movement speed was doubled - allowing him to hang out with Wraiths, Scarabs or such.

Then in 5th, the fluff was altered such that Destroyers - including Destroyer Lords - were all insane Daleks who exterminate anything and everything that isn't them. Sigh. Functionally, however, Destroyer Lords basically became Destroyer Overlords in terms of stats (with Necron Lords being nerfed down to 1W demi-HQs). They were pretty good and, IIRC, were used a great deal with Wraiths (who might have otherwise struggled with heavy armour and vehicles).

Why this history lesson, you ask? Well, things changed in 7th when some pillock on the design team decided that Destroyer Lords should go back to being the equivalents of Necron Lords, rather than Overlords. So when all our Overlords were upgraded to WS5 BS5, Destroyer Lords were left at WS4 BS4. Worse still, the aforementioned pillock thought to himself 'hey, why are Necron Lords going around with Wraiths? They should be hanging out with their own kind'. So 7th also gave us the Destroyer Cult Formation, which gave the Destroyer Lord an aura that buffed nearby Destroyers. The only problem is that Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are ranged units (with ranges of 24" and 36", respectively), whilst the Destroyer Lord is a melee unit.

And now 8th has continued this proud trend with the Destroyer Lord's stats (WS3+, BS3+, whilst our other HQs are WS2+, BS2+) and inbuilt aura. The latter allows all nearby Destroyers to reroll to-wound rolls of 1... when shooting. Just to clarify, the Destroyer Lord has access to 4 weapons. 1 of them has a ranged attack (with the range of a pistol). So, most of the time, the Destroyer Lord is going to have anti-synergy with his own aura.

Hence, as it stands, we have what amounts to a fast, dedicated-melee HQ, who is only able to buff two long-rage, shooty units. On top of that, whilst every other HQ in the game gets to keep their stats when they take a bike or jump pack, ours has to trade WS and BS for the privilege.

To be fair, destroyers now have 2 attacks, so they can be good in CC against weakened targets.
But yeah, it is pretty dumb how a unit that really wants to be in CC is expected to be with units that really want to shoot.
They either need to make CC options for destroyers, a good ranged option for destroyer lords or give the Destroyer Lord My Will be Done.

A unit of 3 Destroyers puts out the same attacks as a basic 5 man TAC squad, nothing to be concerned about. In dire straights, may be worth the charge if the final kill/objective was guaranteed. Now if you could give the unit warscythes.. now that's a fast hard hitting unit perfectly supported by the Destroyer Lord.

Yeah, that does sound amazing. Destroyers need more weapon options in general. They are supposed to be obsessed with killing, after all.

As for how individual necrons rate in fluff, the noble frames are as strong and as tough as custodes, tougher actually because they can recover from wounds that would kill custodes. Immotek, who does not claim to be the best fighter in the necrons, defeated Helbrecht the chapter master of the black templars in single combat. Helbretch was far more skilled than Immotek, and the Storm lord won the fight purely on being tougher and stronger. That's one of the best chapter masters in a duel getting beat by someone who isn't even in same league as him. So could Immotek take on a primarch, not a chance, but then again he is far from the top of the food chain when it comes to dueling skills.

If we get to see someone like the as yet unnamed leader of the triarch praetorians, you'll probably have an opponent worthy of a primarch. As for C'Tam shards, they are on par with an the avatar of khaine, which is a tough fight but stacked in a primarchs favor. Transcendent C'Tan are supposed to be much more powerful, but the rules have never lived up to the fluff on that one. A full powered C'Tan would be the kind of opponent only the Emperor would dream of taking on in single combat, as they are beings who arsenal includes time travel, and the ability to transmute matter into new configurations (including into anti-matter), turn off fundamental forces of nature like gravity or nuclear strong force, in addition to creating wormholes and black holes.

As for how GW will fix units like destroyers I think it's just as likely to go the other way, they make destroyers less cool, so they can reduce the price on them (to say jetbike price ranges of less than 30 points including kit) so we can take enough of them to make a difference. If we could squeeze in 9 destroyers, 3 heavy destroyers, and a dlord for under 500 points it would be a sea change for necrons.

I'd like to just see gauss all get rending. Leave it at -1, -2 whatever... on a 6+ they get -4 AP. This would allow anything with gauss to glance vehicles and units quite easily again. For anything with a 3+ save it's effectively doing mortal wounds. This would instantly make gauss a scary option again and doesn't overly buff the army.

Tesla needs to be fixed with 6+ is 3 hits, but additionally, we need more +1 to hit. The ubiquitous -1 to hit from most every army out there makes Tesla a non-option in the game now.

valdier wrote:
I'd like to just see gauss all get rending. Leave it at -1, -2 whatever... on a 6+ they get -4 AP. This would allow anything with gauss to glance vehicles and units quite easily again. For anything with a 3+ save it's effectively doing mortal wounds. This would instantly make gauss a scary option again and doesn't overly buff the army.

Tesla needs to be fixed with 6+ is 3 hits, but additionally, we need more +1 to hit. The ubiquitous -1 to hit from most every army out there makes Tesla a non-option in the game now.

I'd actually prefer to see Gauss get +1 Damage for 6's instead of better AP.

Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.

 Galas wrote:
Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.

Why is it people want the same kinds of units across all armies? The point of having different factions is to have a different style of play and different wargear. No, I don't want Necrons to have stuff like everyone else's.

 Galas wrote:
Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.

Honestly, I'd rather they stay at mid-long range shooting platforms. I think all they need is to be made cheaper. They just don't have the damage output to be worth their current cost.


What I don't like is that the Destroyer Lord only exists to babysit them. As out only fast HQ (and a melee one at that), I want him to be able to buff stuff like Wraiths and Triarch Praetorians.

v0iddrgn wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.

Why is it people want the same kinds of units across all armies? The point of having different factions is to have a different style of play and different wargear. No, I don't want Necrons to have stuff like everyone else's.

Whats the problem with meele destroyers? Is not like Necrons dont have allready units with spears/halberds.

 Galas wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.

Why is it people want the same kinds of units across all armies? The point of having different factions is to have a different style of play and different wargear. No, I don't want Necrons to have stuff like everyone else's.

Whats the problem with meele destroyers? Is not like Necrons dont have allready units with spears/halberds.

Destroyers already have a melee version in the DLord. Look, I'm all for Destroyers getting more options, I would love for a new kit that gave them Tesla Cannons and maybe some other cool stuff but the spear thing just feels like, 'lets make a Shining Spears unit for the Necrons'. No thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.

Honestly, I'd rather they stay at mid-long range shooting platforms. I think all they need is to be made cheaper. They just don't have the damage output to be worth their current cost.


What I don't like is that the Destroyer Lord only exists to babysit them. As out only fast HQ (and a melee one at that), I want him to be able to buff stuff like Wraiths and Triarch Praetorians.

Here here.

I wasnt thinking about shining spears, just cool floating necrons with halberds

v0iddrgn wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Necron drstroyers should have options for something like tesla spears with short range shooting similar to custodes spears.

Why is it people want the same kinds of units across all armies? The point of having different factions is to have a different style of play and different wargear. No, I don't want Necrons to have stuff like everyone else's.

How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed.
No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed.
No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.

I imagine it was dropped because the unit that used it (Pariahs) was also dropped.

Strangely, even at the time, Necron HQs were never given the option to purchase a warscythe with a built-in Gauss Blaster.

Would be nice, though.

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed.
No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.

I imagine it was dropped because the unit that used it (Pariahs) was also dropped.

Strangely, even at the time, Necron HQs were never given the option to purchase a warscythe with a built-in Gauss Blaster.

Would be nice, though.

That's a lazy reason though. Just because it was a signature weapon for one unit doesn't mean no one can have it.

Of course, with the retcon such a reason doesn't exist, so there's no reason why Overlords can't have it now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed.
No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.

I imagine it was dropped because the unit that used it (Pariahs) was also dropped.

Strangely, even at the time, Necron HQs were never given the option to purchase a warscythe with a built-in Gauss Blaster.

Would be nice, though.

That's a lazy reason though. Just because it was a signature weapon for one unit doesn't mean no one can have it.
Sometimes I think GW doesn't understand necrons.

Oh, I completely agree. I was more just puzzled about why Necron Lords weren't given that option in the first place.

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

How about a warscythe with a built in gauss blaster instead? You know, like the ones necrons used to have in 3rd ed.
No idea why they completely dropped that weapon. It was cool.

I imagine it was dropped because the unit that used it (Pariahs) was also dropped.

Strangely, even at the time, Necron HQs were never given the option to purchase a warscythe with a built-in Gauss Blaster.

Would be nice, though.

That's a lazy reason though. Just because it was a signature weapon for one unit doesn't mean no one can have it.
Sometimes I think GW doesn't understand necrons.

Oh, I completely agree. I was more just puzzled about why Necron Lords weren't given that option in the first place.

I think it makes sense. To me, Pariahs are supposed to be the next generation of necron, so it seems fitting they would have an advanced weapon that combined the best "standard" infantry weapon (gauss blaster) with the best melee weapon (warscythe).
Lords were important, but they were still the old model of necron; a T-800 compared to a T-1000

If you had melee focused destroyers how would you mechanically differentiate them from praetorians or wraiths? Necrons kind of already have the big floaty dude punching you in the face thing covered. If I could pick another variant for destroyers I'd like to see tesla destroyers, armed with a tesla cannon. Maybe make them faster since they don't need gravitic stabilization. You'd need to bring the tesla cannon up to snuff, maybe make it assault 4, just imagine a group of six destroyers floating around averaging 36ish shots per round of str 6 ap nothing.

wraiths don't have RP, rerolls of one and have invuls. They aren't great against multi wound units.

Destroyers with scythes would have RP, re-rolls and would be good against vehicles and multi wound units.

Well, Necrons need a a complete overhaul.
Gauss weapons are almost useless vs. tanks now. Stripping points is not really working if the enemy tank has 12-16 wounds and a 3+ save.
Wraiths have also too less damage output with D1 atm.
I'm curious how DW will resolve this?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Necrons need a a complete overhaul.
Gauss weapons are almost useless vs. tanks now. Stripping points is not really working if the enemy tank has 12-16 wounds and a 3+ save.
Wraiths have also too less damage output with D1 atm.
I'm curious how DW will resolve this?

Hopefully with +1 damage on Wound rolls of 6+ on all Gauss weapons. That's my big hope for getting more out of Gauss when the codex comes.

v0iddrgn wrote:

valdier wrote:
I'd like to just see gauss all get rending. Leave it at -1, -2 whatever... on a 6+ they get -4 AP. This would allow anything with gauss to glance vehicles and units quite easily again. For anything with a 3+ save it's effectively doing mortal wounds. This would instantly make gauss a scary option again and doesn't overly buff the army.

Tesla needs to be fixed with 6+ is 3 hits, but additionally, we need more +1 to hit. The ubiquitous -1 to hit from most every army out there makes Tesla a non-option in the game now.

I'd actually prefer to see Gauss get +1 Damage for 6's instead of better AP.

I prefer always wound on 5s+


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Destroyers are destroyers. Should be cheaper. Cheap D3wound option.

I'd like to see lychguard, pretorians and deathmark get some love too.

 Lance845 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
If I were given design of crons, I'd make RP not a random effect. You would have such-and-such amount of reanimation, scaling with army size, and you could use it to reanimate any models with RP, at a rate dependent on the unit, with a discount if near a cryptek or res orb.

This would lead to an interesting situation where players would bring balanced TAC lists, and then during a game would have the option to use their reanimation on the things they need more of. For example in a game against knights/superheavies, they'd just leave the warriors dead and keep rezzing the heavy destroyers with all their RP.

It would really make them feel like a calculating advanced race with a revival mechanic as opposed to "robotic nurgle machines."

Horrible amounts of book keeping.

I don't think keeping track of one number, similar to command points, would be that much bookkeeping. While I would be hesitant to introduce something this complicated to armies in general, as an army specific main rule, I feel it has the space to be a little more complicated than most rules