One thing in Warhammer 40k that tires me is that battles seem to have no consequence. No matter how massive the loss one faction takes, they just shove it under the rug and pull from their ass a bunch more armies. Now that the storyline is advancing, we need some of the factions/armies/races to go, much like the Squat a decade ago. They have served their purpose, but their continued existence only serves to stagnate the plot.

The removal must make sense lore-wise, either the faction has pitiful lore to back them up or already on the brink of destruction. Getting rid of the Tyranids through retcon and bs is out of the question.

My personal wish-list of factions/armies/races to be annihilated:

Thousand Sons and Space Wolves. Magnus finally achieves vengeance but lost his whole legion in the process. The Space Wolves are too few and will eventually die off. Magnus wins in the end because the Thousand Sons have a Successor Chapter which is still loyal to the Imperium whereas the Space Wolves can have none.

The Imperium. A new institution replaces the old Imperium, one that is more efficient and better-run. Guilliman may start a civil war that wipes out all dissidents.

Tau Empire. Farsight sees through the Ethereals' plot and overthrows them, uniting the Tau Empire and the Farsight Enclave under his leadership. Alternatively, a Hive Fleet can devastate most of the Tau Empire, forcing it to merge with the Farsight Enclave.

Dark Eldar. Vect finally meets his demise with grace. Commorragh falls and the entire Dark Eldar race either die off or join the Ynnari.

Eldar Corsair. Very weak plot overall. The presence of this faction gives the false allusion that the Eldar were more numerous then they are supposed to be. As long as this faction exists, the Eldar race cannot be seen as teetering on the edge of extinction. A punishment campaign by the Craftworlds and the Imperium see them off.

Slaanesh. Just like Age of Sigmar. With Ynned on the rise, her end is approaching.

Khorne. Kharn the Betrayal grows in power and eventually challenges Khorne and defeats him, becoming the new Blood God.

How about whatever army you play is the one that gets annihilated

only fair, right

Didn't they try this once already? As I recall, it didn't go over so well....



(Hint look at my sig)

First off, 40k is a setting, not a story. The setting is evolving but there is no "story arc" it is following. It's really just a stage for you to imagine explosions and "pew pew" noises with your army. So I disagree with killing off any faction.

Secondly:

bibotot wrote:

Tau Empire. Farsight sees through the Ethereals' plot and overthrows them, uniting the Tau Empire and the Farsight Enclave under his leadership.

That is a pretty lame way to handle Farsight. I miss the days when Farsight was just a renegade leading a lucrative mercenary colony.

None. Though I'm surprised that Blood Angels still exist, they seem to get destroyed all the time and just barely saved through Deus ex machina.
Funny that you exclude Tyranids but then want to destroy the most powerful Chaos god.

I vote your army. Their weaponry has unrealistically short ranges. The troops stumble over themselves half the time when charging the enemy and even if they closed with the enemy the enemy casually walks away. Their largest of land vehicles can be stopped in its tracks by a kid with a stick. Their aircraft fly in unreasonable tight rectangles extremely low to the ground and gets knocked out by flame throwers. The army doesn't know how to use cover and the troops die when clipped in an extremity. List goes on.

I'll also say sisters of battle because if you know about Bretonnia then you should expect it.

Dandelion wrote:
First off, 40k is a setting, not a story. The setting is evolving but there is no "story arc" it is following. It's really just a stage for you to imagine explosions and "pew pew" noises with your army. So I disagree with killing off any faction.

Secondly:

bibotot wrote:

Tau Empire. Farsight sees through the Ethereals' plot and overthrows them, uniting the Tau Empire and the Farsight Enclave under his leadership.

That is a pretty lame way to handle Farsight. I miss the days when Farsight was just a renegade leading a lucrative mercenary colony.

100% this, it's a setting for games and collectibles, leave the story developments to black library novels. They already almost irreparably damaged the setting with the Cawl and primaris garbage...i'm not sure how much more of that kind of stuff I can handle before it becomes something unrecognizable.

AOS "advanced" the story, and ruined the setting of the Old World in the process.

40k would have the same effect when you start killing off entire factions. Chaos wins, the Eye of Terror rips open uncontrollably and destroys the galaxy. The Emperor had planned for this all along and awakens from his Throne in the epicentre of the Eye and rebuilds the galaxy on a whim - and creates the Stormcast-Ultra-Avengers to fight and take back the Immortal Realms. Is this ridiculous fan-boyism writing what you want?

Bye Tyranids. Idiotic fluff, ugly models, and rules that are just "orks, but buy another $50 codex to pretend they're a different army". I can't think of a single redeeming quality for the faction, their presence will not be missed.

None. You take flawed view and assume 40k should be some evolving story when it was from get-go setting for you to play out your own stories. You want to wipe out faction? Play it out on the games! That's how 40k was supposed to work.

bibotot wrote:
Tau Empire. Farsight sees through the Ethereals' plot and overthrows them, uniting the Tau Empire and the Farsight Enclave under his leadership. Alternatively, a Hive Fleet can devastate most of the Tau Empire, forcing it to merge with the Farsight Enclave.

How horrifically dull.

I don't like intellectual genocide. I think the Squats should in fact be brought back.

Mark.

Ah, trollbait. The best kind of bait. If you forced me to choose at gunpoint an army to remove it'd probably be Dark Angels, not for any lore reason but because out of all the various factions to have an army book, I think they arguably add the least interesting flavor.

Their theme is...secrecy, plasma guns and leaving your helmet off in favor of robes? Grey Knights, Black Templars and Blood Angels all do the "medieval marines" shtick more interestingly. Deathwatch are a much better "gadget marine" faction. Greenwing could be a standard marine chapter tactic with absolutely no need to change anything. Structurally, they adhere to the basic marine codex unit setup with no deviations like you see with all the other unique marine factions.

I dunno. I don't want to offend dark angels fans but I don't think there's very much they bring to the table (not nothing, but not more than other unique marine factions do, and again just in my opinion). For as much as they make me cringe at times, even space wolves have a more interesting basic concept.

I like all of the factions because it helps paint a grander setting

But gun to my head, someone’s gotta go, I’d honestly say either Orks or nids.

They both fill a very similar role story wise as a massive xeno horde.

I’d also probably say Daemons because I feel that Humans using the ruinous powers is more pleasing story wise, you can better develop a character from someone that turns to chaos than a being that is manifested chaos.

I'd say you can ditch at least one of the custom space marine chapters without it being any great loss. Personally I'd say Blood Angels don't really bring much to the table. You could pretty much reproduce them in the regular SM codex with a chapter tactic and a special character.

Controversial, but I'm tempted to say Craftworld Eldar. They've been on the brink of dying out for how long? Die already...

People put a lot of effort into collecting and painting armies. It is cruel to then say "sorry, your army can't be played any more. Ho ho ho! What WERE we thinking with this silly faction?"

As many people have said above, if something HAD to go, let it be a flavour of space marines - at least the model collection could still be used as space marines, even keeping the same paint scheme, just using the general purpose space marine rules with the most suitable chapter tactic...

The two races spawned by the Old Ones merges and becomes the dreaded Orkdar...

No good can come of this thread.

It's also 'Destroyed'.

I remember in 3rd edition there were rumours going around that the Dark Eldar were going to be wiped out by the Tyranids, thankfully they just re-did the model range instead!

I don't think anybody should be deleted, but I do think marines from the OG traitor legions should be rarer than they appear in the background after 10,000 years of attrition.
The armies of Chaos could be rejigged to mainly comprise low quality imitation space marines cooked up in dark mechanicus gene shops along with cultist and mutant hordes. True space marines would be limited to commanders and elites.

Nothing should be deleted or added (especially not anymore imperial subfactions).

I'd rather 40k were left as a static setting because it's really cool as a setting. It's not so cool as an unfolding story; too many cringy Mary-sue characters and idiotic rubbish like super-super soldiers,

I'll word this question differently. If I had NO choice in the matter and HAD to pick one codex to axe, i'd eliminate Custodes. They're extremely redundant, and if you REALLY need to keep the models, you can easily just wedge them in as elites and heavy support in the standard Marine codex.

Not one of those ideas is a good way of ending a faction.

I'd take out Ynnari, Sisters of Silence, Custodes and Inquisition.

Squats, o wait they already did that one.






Still makes me mad tho.

But really Tau, they get eaten by Tyranids.

Those that sell less. There's no reason to kill any faction that sells well.

If I had to pick one, Space Wolves. Mainly just because their fluff is so badly written, contradictory, confused, and ridiculous even for 40k that they come off as a tweens bad internet fanfic

They really should have just cut off their fluff spigot before the 2009 codex and HH books...they were so much cooler then XD

Eliminate the Tau - both Farsight and Empire.

I'd be happy with "The Tyranids did it." as a rationale, though I'd prefer a retcon that removed them entirely.

Keep the Kroot as a merc race, though. The birdmen are cool.

Why remove factions? You're trying to grow the hobby, not drive off whatever customers might be tempted into it by a faction's fluff or aesthetics.

If you're going to do it though, start with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence. Back to 30k where you make sense, please.

With the exception of AoS I doubt GW is into eliminating factions. What is more likely to happen is that they take an existing faction and then splinter it into several factions. For example, my Dark Elves suddenly became 3+ damn factions when once there was one.

Currently waiting and seeing what they are going to do with the Drukhari, and whether they are going to write the faction as three separate(coven, cult, kabals).

So to answer your question:

Drukhari is eliminated and now we have Coven, Cults, and Kabals as three separate factions.

Dark Angels are eliminated due to infighting and become three separate factions: Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Core Dark Angels.

Craftworlds become their own separate factions due to infighting. Now we have Alaitoc, Saim-Hann, and Yianden.

Due to a mutation Genestealers have made their own separate faction outside of Tyranids.

etc etc etc.

Necrons and Tyranids.

I don't see that there's a case to be made for eliminating factions on the basis of wanting the story to advance or whatever. That's not the point of the 40k background. It's also kind of perverse since either "the battles have no consequence" as far as a particular player is concerned or else they massively negatively impact that player. Like, I mostly play Eldar and Guard so I don't really care at all about Space Wolves. If the 40k plot advances and eliminates Space Wolves that doesn't actually mean very much to me. The only people who really care about Space Wolves either way are Space Wolves players, and they'll be pissed.

The case for eliminating factions has to be that it's good for the game. Now, this is a pretty easy case to make for many factions -- if this were a computer strategy game it'd be obvious to almost everyone that there are way too many factions that aren't nearly distinct enough (nor does GW have the resources to adequately support them all) and they should be cut down significantly. But of course we're dealing with lots of physical sunk costs so you need to be realizing a lot of improvement to justify screwing over a bunch of players by invalidating their stuff.

GW also has almost no financial incentive to squat a faction. It makes much more sense for them to just ignore unwanted factions for years on end. Like, what has been the cost to GW of not just squatting Orks? By just not paying them any attention they still get to occasionally sell models, and all they have to do is release half-baked rules for them every few years. Maybe eventually it's been so long that they can release new models and it's as if they're releasing a completely new faction (which they like to do because you sell more models for completely new things than you do for things that people already own versions of). Or maybe the zeitgeist sort of comes around on a faction and it makes sense to suddenly give it a lot more attention -- Sisters probably benefited from a general cultural move towards inclusivity. Either way it's very cheap and easy to keep a faction on life support indefinitely.

If we play the "what if" game, I'd say Tau would be the easiest by far. Tiny, borderline insignificant in the grand scheme of 40K. And I say that as someone who would consider them as an army in the future. I'd rather see Necrons destroyed as their current form is goofy and the fluff is terrible...but they're getting more deus-ex-machina storytime lately so they'd stay for a while.

Also, Eldar Corsairs are not an actual faction. They're just Eldar pirates. You can't get rid of them because they don't really exist. Human and even Space Marine pirates exist as well, they just don't have any little models from Forge World.

Can people stop saying "Tau", please? I'm in the middle of buying up Tau models from the old collectors who want rid of them due to new rules suckage.

In sum - may the Greater Good reign forever! Or whatever.

 Peregrine wrote:
Bye Tyranids. Idiotic fluff, ugly models, and rules that are just "orks, but buy another $50 codex to pretend they're a different army". I can't think of a single redeeming quality for the faction, their presence will not be missed.

Seconded. The poor things wouldn't really manage any invasions without respirators anyway.

Guard. Just completely obliterate humanity. The game is Chaos vs Xenos now

There is only one answer to this question: chaos.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without chaos, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "all your victories just strengthens our chaos forces!"-crap.

Not to mention, their rotten tentacle-ridden forces are ugly.

Why is Guilliman still a thing? I've killed him like 8 times now? WHY IS THERE NO PROGRESSION?!

Daemons, the whole lot of them. Especially Nurgle.

Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

 mew28 wrote:
Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

Indeed. They are just these saturday morning cartoon villains.

 Elbows wrote:
If we play the "what if" game, I'd say Tau would be the easiest by far. Tiny, borderline insignificant in the grand scheme of 40K. And I say that as someone who would consider them as an army in the future. I'd rather see Necrons destroyed as their current form is goofy and the fluff is terrible...but they're getting more deus-ex-machina storytime lately so they'd stay for a while.

Also, Eldar Corsairs are not an actual faction. They're just Eldar pirates. You can't get rid of them because they don't really exist. Human and even Space Marine pirates exist as well, they just don't have any little models from Forge World.

In fairness they were prior to 8th.

pm713 wrote:
Not one of those ideas is a good way of ending a faction.

I'd take out Ynnari, Sisters of Silence, Custodes and Inquisition.

So you want the Imperium to lose two of their most important groups? If it’s so overwhelmed that the Custodes and Inquisition are wiped out, then you might as well remove the Imperium as a viable entity altogether.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not one of those ideas is a good way of ending a faction.

I'd take out Ynnari, Sisters of Silence, Custodes and Inquisition.

So you want the Imperium to lose two of their most important groups? If it’s so overwhelmed that the Custodes and Inquisition are wiped out, then you might as well remove the Imperium as a viable entity altogether.

I'd take them out as playable factions not entities in the lore.

Adolf, is that you?

My wishlist: the end of Vanilla marines. There are too many imperium units and too many specific chapters.

Just keep BA, DA and SW, remove all the other marines.

And cut IK as well, they just make no sense as an independent army, it's like creating an army of stompas.

I'd also cut chaos daemons, they're basically a fantasy army that shouldn't belong to a sci-fi game.

Generally speaking I think there are too many imperium and chaos factions. But most of them should just be part of the same codex.

Tyranids are among the best looking armies IMHO, and they're style of playing is unique. I think they're among the best armies in 40k.

But I'm basically just joking, I don't think it would be fair to remove factions along with their models. Mergins the smallest ones into a single codex sure, but removing the models without replacing them only because fluff reasons absolutely not.

@Blackie. Since when was 40k sci fi? It never has been. 40k is a fantasy setting that just happens to be in the future; Daemons are more than appropriate.

 BBAP wrote:
Can people stop saying "Tau", please?

Right. T'au. Sorry.



But seriously, the whole idea of killing factions is stupid and frankly, OPs suggestions are super lame. 'More efficient and better-run' replacement for Imperium and Farsight led T'au! Get out of here!


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 Insectum7 wrote:
Why is Guilliman still a thing? I've killed him like 8 times now? WHY IS THERE NO PROGRESSION?!

Whist I don't want story progression and I don't generally think characters with models should be invalidated, I make exception in this case. Sooner we get rid of that bloated blue blasphemy that symbolises the destruction of 40K background the better. Kill Guilliman!

If you want consequence to your games setup some sort of model destruction rules such as all eliminated models need to make a 3+ save and failing 3 times means the model is hit with a hammer until it can never be repaired. I don't really suggest this as this is going to be expensive, and I know if I was playing that way; I would be super cautious about letting anything get killed conceding well before that.

I agree with the consensus of this thread. Every 40K faction has its fan base. I imagine that they like their favorite faction just as much as you or I. No wants their favorite faction to disappear from the setting. I might not like the more Tolkien inspired fantasy elements, but they are what makes 40K what it is as much as space marines.

I think one of the more clever things the writers did for 40K was make it a setting to facilitate wargames and not have a meta-story involved (well until recently). I come from a pen and paper RPG background. The games that have a meta story to them kinda write themselves into a corner eventually and meta events can completely mess up your group's game as it was going a different direction than what latest supplement had.

It is usually better to have story up a certain point and let the players decide what happens next. Which is what 40K did and even left enough blank space to be filled in by the player base.

If I HAD to choose, Grey Knights. Never got on with them and don't like the models.

However, thousands do, so they should stay.

Quite frankly, it's a daft idea.

If it bugs you that much, write your own story and just pretend that army x y z don't exist so don't play them.

Personally I like all the factions we currently have. In fact I wouldn't be even be against adding a few more, but I do like to troll people so I'd be ok with eliminating Orks or even eldar. Orks because they have some really nutty and dedicated players, Eldar because so many non-Eldar players would so pleased. Personally I like Eldar but I hear so many people bashing them as OP here and on other forums I'd like to make them happy for once in their lives.

Blackie wrote: it's like creating an army of stompas.

and how us this a bad idea? I think it'd be cool and would totally play against an army full if them.

I assume the OP is trolling. So i am not going to argue.

pm713 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not one of those ideas is a good way of ending a faction.

I'd take out Ynnari, Sisters of Silence, Custodes and Inquisition.

So you want the Imperium to lose two of their most important groups? If it’s so overwhelmed that the Custodes and Inquisition are wiped out, then you might as well remove the Imperium as a viable entity altogether.

I'd take them out as playable factions not entities in the lore.

Ah, so you didn't read the OP, then? You're not the only one in this thread, right enough.

Although given that the OP wants to get rid of the Imperium, Tau, two of the four Chaos gods and the Dark Eldar in some spectacularly awful ways, I'm not sure why they even bother with 40k.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Blackie wrote: it's like creating an army of stompas.

and how us this a bad idea? I think it'd be cool and would totally play against an army full if them.

IMHO playing against 4 dudes it's not fun. Regardless of how competitive or big they are.

In no particular order,

Space Marines: What are they doing in this setting again? There's probably more marine models than cannonical marines at this point they're so rare.

Dark Angels: Shouldn't they be polishing their jetbikes?

Blood Angels: They've suffered catastrophic casualties so many times that the chapter is a single marine at this point.

Grey Knights: Baby Carriers. Don't think I need to say anything else.

Space Wolves: Too many PITA violations to count. Next.

Deathwatch: When's the last time you saw one of these on the table? Toss it with the rest.

Guard: The Commissar's hat makes me...uncomfortably warm. Not on my table!

Sisters of Battle: Meh, we're throwing the rest of the Power Armor out, let's be egalitarian about it.

Custodes: Custodians have mops, not Spears. Out.

Sisters of Silence: Two all female factions dedicated entirely to worshipping the empire? Yawn. Out with the rest.

Mechanicus: I played AdMech once...now I'm uncomfortably attracted to my household appliances. Get them out.

Imperial Agents: The Imperium's Dollar Bin also belongs in the trash.

Imperial Knights: Oh wow, they've expanded to two whole models. Wraith Knights are taller. Out with them too.

Daemons: Space Marines and Daemons in the future? What is this, doom? Out with you.

CSM: Same problems as the Marines, and DE pull off the spikey look way better. Toss em.

Death Guard: Plenty of Plauge Marines wandering around game stores already. Let's not encourage them.

TS: Nipple Horns.

Craftworlds: Plastic Sisters are coming, so updated Aspect Warriors won't be here for another three decades or so. Why even bother? Out with them.

Harlequins: I don't like to smile.

DE: Sado-Machism? Not in my GOOD CHRISTIAN SETTING.

Ynnari: Whoever drew the art for the Yvarine had an obvious foot fetish. The only cure for that is fire.

Corsairs: DE lite. Pick a side! Out with them too.

Tyanids: Compete with Orks for big Xenos horde. Orks do it better.

Orks: Compete with Tyranids for big Xenos horde. Tyanids do it better.

Genestealer Cults: No GMOs in this setting, no sir.

Necrons: Take your C'tan and go beat up the other Pokémon.

Tau: Communism.

 nordsturmking wrote:
I assume the OP is trolling. So i am not going to argue.

it is the best troll post I've seen since someone on Warseer suggested all non-imperial factions should be rolled into a single codex as marines were much more popular...

 NurglesR0T wrote:
AOS "advanced" the story, and ruined the setting of the Old World in the process.

I'd love to know how. The End Times destroyed the Old World. 1000 yeas went by between the end of End Times and the beginning of AoS. So, how exactly did AoS ruin the setting of the Old World when the Old World was already gone.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
I'd love to know how. The End Times destroyed the Old World. 1000 yeas went by between the end of End Times and the beginning of AoS. So, how exactly did AoS ruin the setting of the Old World when the Old World was already gone.

SG

Because the "end times" was clearly GW's deliberate attempt to kill off WHFB and replace it with AoS. It was nothing more than a fluff justification for the plan to introduce AoS. No AoS, no end times, no destruction of WHFB.

 Peregrine wrote:
Because the "end times" was clearly GW's deliberate attempt to kill off WHFB and replace it with AoS. It was nothing more than a fluff justification for the plan to introduce AoS. No AoS, no end times, no destruction of WHFB.

They were just advancing the story... just like they did with the Gathering Storm in the 40K universe. In 40K, army names have changed, new armies have been added (Ynnari for example), some models no longer seem to exist (at least the codices). I'm seeing a lot of parallels between "The Old World" and and the end of the war around the Eye of Terror. There's nothing wrong with moving a story along that hasn't changed in 25 years.

SG


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I think it's rather funny that people are wanting to get rid of Chaos Daemons. Doesn't make much sense. The Chaos gods create these daemons. It just so happens that the same Chaos gods exist in both Fantasy and 40K. It makes perfect sense for them to be in both settings.

SG

 RedCommander wrote:
There is only one answer to this question: chaos.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without chaos, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "all your victories just strengthens our chaos forces!"-crap.

Not to mention, their rotten tentacle-ridden forces are ugly.

This made me laugh as there's another faction this applies to:


There is only one answer to this question: space marines.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without space marines, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "we suffered great losses but managed to refill our chapter's ranks in time for the next war!"-crap.

Not to mention, their boxy tentacle-devoid forces are ugly.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
AOS "advanced" the story, and ruined the setting of the Old World in the process.

I'd love to know how. The End Times destroyed the Old World. 1000 yeas went by between the end of End Times and the beginning of AoS. So, how exactly did AoS ruin the setting of the Old World when the Old World was already gone.

SG

Because GW introduced the End Times to kill off the Old World and introduce AoS?
They did not have to kill the Old World completely. There's a difference between advancing the story, and burning the whole thing down. If the setting and overall story is different, its not really the same story, now is it?
That's like giving Sauron high tech alien gear in Lord of the Rings, who begin to nuke everything and suddenly it becomes a story about the forces of Middle Earth fighting a guerilla war against an techno-magical threat in a quasi-futuristic setting.



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shortymcnostrill wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:
There is only one answer to this question: chaos.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without chaos, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "all your victories just strengthens our chaos forces!"-crap.

Not to mention, their rotten tentacle-ridden forces are ugly.

This made me laugh as there's another faction this applies to:


There is only one answer to this question: space marines.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without space marines, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "we suffered great losses but managed to refill our chapter's ranks in time for the next war!"-crap.

Not to mention, their boxy tentacle-devoid forces are ugly.

You joke, but the setting would probably be a lot more interesting dramatically if it were mainly about humans fighting superhuman threats rather than superhumans fighting superhuman threats.
You know, like what WHFB did.

Tau. Hands down, no questions asked.

They don’t belong in 40k. They should never have been included.

Space marines. There are so few in number that they wouldn't last an afternoon in a real battle.

Martel732 wrote:
Space marines. There are so few in number that they wouldn't last an afternoon in a real battle.

To be fair, that's only because GW never uses them right.
Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes.
Not on in open battle field, where they will probably be outnumbered and encircled. Like in every bloody artwork ever. Because GW can't into modern tactics.
This is why we need chapter serfs. So marines can have the bodies required to ensure they don't get outflanked and surrounded.

"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

To be fair, Martel, "surgical strikes" can mean anything. You wouldn't get the Space Marines involved in an open war, but you certainly could use them to drop in and take out a rebellious group or something by surprise.

More like a SWAT team or SAS than a battlefield army. Marines should never be a battlefield army, the way GW has written them. If they had any sense of scale, they'd put Marines more like the Army Rangers and less like the Navy SEALs, imo.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
To be fair, Martel, "surgical strikes" can mean anything. You wouldn't get the Space Marines involved in an open war, but you certainly could use them to drop in and take out a rebellious group or something by surprise.

More like a SWAT team or SAS than a battlefield army. Marines should never be a battlefield army, the way GW has written them. If they had any sense of scale, they'd put Marines more like the Army Rangers and less like the Navy SEALs, imo.

There are still WAY more than 1,000 rangers and that's for ONE nation on ONE planet. Chapters are too small to do anything other than participate in parades.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
To be fair, Martel, "surgical strikes" can mean anything. You wouldn't get the Space Marines involved in an open war, but you certainly could use them to drop in and take out a rebellious group or something by surprise.

More like a SWAT team or SAS than a battlefield army. Marines should never be a battlefield army, the way GW has written them. If they had any sense of scale, they'd put Marines more like the Army Rangers and less like the Navy SEALs, imo.

There are still WAY more than 1,000 rangers and that's for ONE nation on ONE planet. Chapters are too small to do anything other than participate in parades.

Right... which is why I said "if they had any sense of scale, they'd make them more like the Rangers."

Not "they are like the Rangers as they are now."

Martel732 wrote:
"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

How would they lose a chapter if they just used a few at a time, in conjunction with the imperial guard? If you used your entire army at once just to kill a general, you are a bad tactician.
Also, aren't plasma guns super rare, and don't you think they marines would, idk, look first too see if the enemy has such weapons, and if so, prioritize their destruction?
Just because GW's idea of tactics is to perform a banzai attack across no man's land doesn't mean it has to be that way.

Ah, I see. It can also be fixed by making chapters 10,000,000 strong. That's plausible interplanetary scale.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

How would they lose a chapter if they just used a few at a time, in conjunction with the imperial guard? If you used your entire army at once just to kill a general, you are a bad tactician.

Because you have to send a whole chapter to do anything in the first place. A few don't do anything.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

How would they lose a chapter if they just used a few at a time, in conjunction with the imperial guard? If you used your entire army at once just to kill a general, you are a bad tactician.

"Just a few at a time" won't kill a general. That's the problem. Dropping 5 Marines atop the enemy's command bunker in one drop-pod will likely have the result of scattered marine body-parts and drop-pod wreckage over an unimaginably huge area, and the smoking barrel of an air defense laser a few meters away from the command bunker.

Turns out things dropping from orbit that aren't maneuvering are fairly easy targets for computer-assisted directed-energy weapons.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

How would they lose a chapter if they just used a few at a time, in conjunction with the imperial guard? If you used your entire army at once just to kill a general, you are a bad tactician.

"Just a few at a time" won't kill a general. That's the problem. Dropping 5 Marines atop the enemy's command bunker in one drop-pod will likely have the result of scattered marine body-parts and drop-pod wreckage over an unimaginably huge area, and the smoking barrel of an air defense laser a few meters away from the command bunker.

Turns out things dropping from orbit that aren't maneuvering are fairly easy targets for computer-assisted directed-energy weapons.

Hm, good point. Might need a team of marines to shut down the defenses then. Or have the guard do it. Or airstrike / shell the AA emplacements.
I mean, that's how combined arms and tactics work, right?

1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

As I said, a few dozen plasma guns ends a whole chapter.

Martel732 wrote:
1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

Yeah, that is pretty small for a chapter. Should be 5 times that much, in keeping with that imperial rule where marines can't be in legions of 180,000. Keep in mind there's multiple chapters too, so its not as if there are just 1000 marines total in the galaxy.

There's probably also more baneblades than marines in the galaxy.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

Yeah, that is pretty small for a chapter. Should be 5 times that much, in keeping with that imperial rule where marines can't be in legions of 180,000. Keep in mind there's multiple chapters too, so its not as if there are just 1000 marines total in the galaxy.

No, it should be in the millions. Per chapter. Galaxies are HUGE. Hive worlds are HUGE. The only plausible situation is quadrillions of guardsmen, billions of marines. You'll lose 200K marines on a bad day vs Eldar.


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Dandelion wrote:
There's probably also more baneblades than marines in the galaxy.

Which alone makes marines pointless.

Martel732 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

Yeah, that is pretty small for a chapter. Should be 5 times that much, in keeping with that imperial rule where marines can't be in legions of 180,000. Keep in mind there's multiple chapters too, so its not as if there are just 1000 marines total in the galaxy.

No, it should be in the millions. Galaxies are HUGE. Hive worlds are HUGE. The only plausible situation is quadrillions of guardsmen, billions of marines.


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Dandelion wrote:
There's probably also more baneblades than marines in the galaxy.

Which alone makes marines pointless.

Yeah ok, that does make sense narratively. Space Marines were intended to police the Imperium. Can't do that if the police force is too small.

It also would help explain why chapter masters are such a big deal. If Dante commanded MILLIONS of BA, that's a big deal. It's also more plausible how they almost held off billions of bugs.

But as written, space marines should die. Tomorrow. And Chaos marines would be wiped out virtually overnight. As soon as they try to engage, boom. All dead.

Get rid of the Twilight Space Marines: Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

40k doesn't need vampires and werewolves parading around. I'm fine with a jovial Nurgle, but they just come across as a bad combination of too silly and too Mary Sue for my taste.

shortymcnostrill wrote:


There is only one answer to this question: space marines.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without space marines, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "we suffered great losses but managed to refill our chapter's ranks in time for the next war!"-crap.

That’s the thing about Space Marines. When your entire army consists of only 1,000 troops recruited from a world populated by billions, it’s pretty easy to find replacements. Especiial;y when they are made via surgery,chemical injections and brain-washing.

Martel732 wrote:
It also would help explain why chapter masters are such a big deal. If Dante commanded MILLIONS of BA, that's a big deal. It's also more plausible how they almost held off billions of bugs.

But as written, space marines should die. Tomorrow. And Chaos marines would be wiped out virtually overnight. As soon as they try to engage, boom. All dead.

you are not taking into account the strongest armor in the 41st millennia... plot armor

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Get rid of the Twilight Space Marines: Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

40k doesn't need vampires and werewolves parading around. I'm fine with a jovial Nurgle, but they just come across as a bad combination of too silly and too Mary Sue for my taste.

BA are so Mary Sue that they constantly get their asses kicked in the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It also would help explain why chapter masters are such a big deal. If Dante commanded MILLIONS of BA, that's a big deal. It's also more plausible how they almost held off billions of bugs.

But as written, space marines should die. Tomorrow. And Chaos marines would be wiped out virtually overnight. As soon as they try to engage, boom. All dead.

you are not taking into account the strongest armor in the 41st millennia... plot armor

I am. I'm merely rejecting it.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because the "end times" was clearly GW's deliberate attempt to kill off WHFB and replace it with AoS. It was nothing more than a fluff justification for the plan to introduce AoS. No AoS, no end times, no destruction of WHFB.

They were just advancing the story... just like they did with the Gathering Storm in the 40K universe. In 40K, army names have changed, new armies have been added (Ynnari for example), some models no longer seem to exist (at least the codices). I'm seeing a lot of parallels between "The Old World" and and the end of the war around the Eye of Terror. There's nothing wrong with moving a story along that hasn't changed in 25 years.

SG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it's rather funny that people are wanting to get rid of Chaos Daemons. Doesn't make much sense. The Chaos gods create these daemons. It just so happens that the same Chaos gods exist in both Fantasy and 40K. It makes perfect sense for them to be in both settings.

SG

No a parallel would be the removal of all factions except Chaos Demons and returning as a game with nothing but tanks versus demons.

pm713 wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because the "end times" was clearly GW's deliberate attempt to kill off WHFB and replace it with AoS. It was nothing more than a fluff justification for the plan to introduce AoS. No AoS, no end times, no destruction of WHFB.

They were just advancing the story... just like they did with the Gathering Storm in the 40K universe. In 40K, army names have changed, new armies have been added (Ynnari for example), some models no longer seem to exist (at least the codices). I'm seeing a lot of parallels between "The Old World" and and the end of the war around the Eye of Terror. There's nothing wrong with moving a story along that hasn't changed in 25 years.

SG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it's rather funny that people are wanting to get rid of Chaos Daemons. Doesn't make much sense. The Chaos gods create these daemons. It just so happens that the same Chaos gods exist in both Fantasy and 40K. It makes perfect sense for them to be in both settings.

SG

No a parallel would be the removal of all factions except Chaos Demons and returning as a game with nothing but tanks versus demons.

Yeah, the introduction of AoS and the outcome of the fall of cadia is hardly the same.
The crucial difference being that there's still an imperium, there's a galaxy, and its still recognizable as 40k. AoS is not recognizable as WHFB.
The Fall of Cadia is how they should have handled the End Times. There would still be an Old World, but its just super screwed up. Basically what Storm of Chaos would have been like had they actually implemented the supposed outcome.

Martel732 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

Yeah, that is pretty small for a chapter. Should be 5 times that much, in keeping with that imperial rule where marines can't be in legions of 180,000. Keep in mind there's multiple chapters too, so its not as if there are just 1000 marines total in the galaxy.

No, it should be in the millions. Per chapter. Galaxies are HUGE. Hive worlds are HUGE. The only plausible situation is quadrillions of guardsmen, billions of marines. You'll lose 200K marines on a bad day vs Eldar.

The answer IMO was always the 'scouts' or neophytes. Call it in the fluff that a chapter only has access to so many suits of terminator or power armor, and the neophytes are serving the role of battlefield auxiliaries waiting to replace losses. It would also make techmarines and the gene seed collectors (it has been a while since I played marines) much more meaningful on a field of battle.

A 40k edition without space marines would be my dream

Slaanesh. It's the single worst thing about both 40k and Sigmar.

ERJAK wrote:
Slaanesh. It's the single worst thing about both 40k and Sigmar.

Slaanesh did kill the vast majority of Eldar so I would hardly consider him..... her...... it the worst thing about 40k.

 RedMesa2391 wrote:
Nothing should be deleted or added (especially not anymore imperial subfactions).

I'd rather 40k were left as a static setting because it's really cool as a setting. It's not so cool as an unfolding story; too many cringy Mary-sue characters and idiotic rubbish like super-super soldiers,

Agreed. I didn't like Gathering Storm much. It was hard to read due to poor writing, but the Mary-Sue-ness of it all was quite annoying. The only good bit was the huge ship crashing into Cadia. I haven't even read any of the post-Guilliman fluff, as Primarchs coming back to life already sounds like too much hope for mankind.
I always loved the stagnant nature of the background. Remember that, 'in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.' If things change, it may no longer be grim and dark, or worse still, there might be some sort of peace, and we can't be having that.

Just headcannon pretty much all GW numbers to be bigger.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Just a few at a time" won't kill a general. That's the problem. Dropping 5 Marines atop the enemy's command bunker in one drop-pod will likely have the result of scattered marine body-parts and drop-pod wreckage over an unimaginably huge area, and the smoking barrel of an air defense laser a few meters away from the command bunker.

Turns out things dropping from orbit that aren't maneuvering are fairly easy targets for computer-assisted directed-energy weapons.

Really? Does that mean that lasers are a very efficient defence against kinectic bombardment?
Well, even without any defenses, if you put some marines on a god rod there will still be scattered marine body-parts over an unimaginably huge area, but at least you'll have destroyed the command bunker and everyone in it too .

 mew28 wrote:
Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

How to recruit a new Chaos Marine in two steps :
1) Find a loyalist space marine
2) Tempt him. Popular suggestions involves saying stuff like "We have cookies" or "Hey, why not, could be fun right?"
Seems fairly easy to me.

Actual armies permanently gone, none.

Regiments, Craftworlds, etc..... any that give a base -1 to hit needs deleted permanently.

ERJAK wrote:
Slaanesh. It's the single worst thing about both 40k and Sigmar.

Why...

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Actual armies permanently gone, none.

Regiments, Craftworlds, etc..... any that give a base -1 to hit needs deleted permanently.

yea, even buffs giving -1 to hit are suspect. I was playing my orks vs eldar and literally was going to be able to shoot things on a 7+... let me tell you how awesome it is to take already overprices ineffective shooting and have it turned into literally unable to shoot hit anything visible. I could move lootas wit their heavy weapons to see other things, but then of heavy weapons moving, hit on 6's but minus 1 for altioc... damn it. ork shooting foiled again.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
damn it. ork shooting foiled again.

damn that's dirty, hope it was a random pairing in a tournament and not a pick up game.

Nurgle daemons are pretty dirty as well. Their resilience is pure stupid if your guard, Tau, Orks (i.e. armies with 4+ or worse shooting). Shooting quality is just too low to make a large dent before they get to us.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
damn it. ork shooting foiled again.

damn that's dirty, hope it was a random pairing in a tournament and not a pick up game.

Nurgle daemons are pretty dirty as well.

I see what you did there.

T’au is my first pick.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Actual armies permanently gone, none.

Regiments, Craftworlds, etc..... any that give a base -1 to hit needs deleted permanently.

yea, even buffs giving -1 to hit are suspect. I was playing my orks vs eldar and literally was going to be able to shoot things on a 7+... let me tell you how awesome it is to take already overprices ineffective shooting and have it turned into literally unable to shoot hit anything visible. I could move lootas wit their heavy weapons to see other things, but then of heavy weapons moving, hit on 6's but minus 1 for altioc... damn it. ork shooting foiled again.

Army wide -1 to hit as a freaking trait is so dumb. They should do what Jormungandr did, and give them the benefit of cover if they don't FLY, charge/advance.

If a faction is wiped out now there will be an outcry. So many people have invested a lot of time & money on armies. It would be a very bad business decision on GWs part.

 mew28 wrote:
Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

Do not take black library marine porn as actual fluff. Chaos Marines do work. I mean look at the current setting.

Firstly, this is 40k... there is no story as much as GW pushes it. Everything is both possible and impossible in the 40k universe. You kill space wolves? Well geuss what? BOOM! Warp spat out 1000 Space wolves who were in hiding or some crap... you could even have loyalist Tyranids using the warp as an excuse is you needed to... Hell! I play Shadow wolves... a chapter that's extinct but yet still appears in 40k lore because some escaped or something.

What 40k has is sub stories . Little pockets of adventures and lore in the 40k universe. It can be anything from a story of a Baneblade crew to the whole war on Armageddon. This is what makes 40k special. When something happens you do get consequences. But it's always small scale in relation to the galaxy. However, this makes it more personal. That one guardsmen you followed and grew to love is now dead! That team of space marines you cheered for finally completed their mission. If GW just said "and half the galaxy blew up and all these chapters and races died" you wouldn't give a squig! You have no connections to anyone important so you don't care...


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pm713 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Slaanesh. It's the single worst thing about both 40k and Sigmar.

Why...

How dare you! You take that back! Slaanesh is a Angel of sex!

Does the OP really not understand why there is so much pushback at the idea of removing factions from this (or any) game? Try this:

OP, let us remove from canon (and the game) whichever army you have put the most time, money and effort into.

Honestly, I could see GW removing Orks. They don't really seem to understand them much now and so might just delte them so they don't have to deal with them.

Squat every faction in this game and reintroduce Squats.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Squat every faction in this game and reintroduce Squats.

exalted!

 Strg Alt wrote:
Squat every faction in this game and reintroduce Squats.

Then squat them. From then on the rule book only contains instructions on how to do proper squats. We will then all do squats in unison.

That would be a great April fools joke, actually. GW says they will bring out squats, and all it is is an exercise book.

Sisters of Battle. Only because the meltdown around here would be legendary.

The new sisters update is a plastic line of models, but is also accompanied with the rules being retired for 8th edition. OMMMGGG would be so delicious.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Just a few at a time" won't kill a general. That's the problem. Dropping 5 Marines atop the enemy's command bunker in one drop-pod will likely have the result of scattered marine body-parts and drop-pod wreckage over an unimaginably huge area, and the smoking barrel of an air defense laser a few meters away from the command bunker.

Turns out things dropping from orbit that aren't maneuvering are fairly easy targets for computer-assisted directed-energy weapons.

Really? Does that mean that lasers are a very efficient defence against kinectic bombardment?

I don't think it's quite comparable.
Burn a hole in a ton of rock falling from the sky, and you still have a ton of rock falling from the sky.
Burn a hole in a craft packed full of soldiers as its falling from the sky, and they all burn up in atmospheric entry heat.

TheBaconPope wrote:
In no particular order,

Space Marines: What are they doing in this setting again? There's probably more marine models than cannonical marines at this point they're so rare.

Dark Angels: Shouldn't they be polishing their jetbikes?

Blood Angels: They've suffered catastrophic casualties so many times that the chapter is a single marine at this point.

Grey Knights: Baby Carriers. Don't think I need to say anything else.

Space Wolves: Too many PITA violations to count. Next.

Deathwatch: When's the last time you saw one of these on the table? Toss it with the rest.

Guard: The Commissar's hat makes me...uncomfortably warm. Not on my table!

Sisters of Battle: Meh, we're throwing the rest of the Power Armor out, let's be egalitarian about it.

Custodes: Custodians have mops, not Spears. Out.

Sisters of Silence: Two all female factions dedicated entirely to worshipping the empire? Yawn. Out with the rest.

Mechanicus: I played AdMech once...now I'm uncomfortably attracted to my household appliances. Get them out.

Imperial Agents: The Imperium's Dollar Bin also belongs in the trash.

Imperial Knights: Oh wow, they've expanded to two whole models. Wraith Knights are taller. Out with them too.

Daemons: Space Marines and Daemons in the future? What is this, doom? Out with you.

CSM: Same problems as the Marines, and DE pull off the spikey look way better. Toss em.

Death Guard: Plenty of Plauge Marines wandering around game stores already. Let's not encourage them.

TS: Nipple Horns.

Craftworlds: Plastic Sisters are coming, so updated Aspect Warriors won't be here for another three decades or so. Why even bother? Out with them.

Harlequins: I don't like to smile.

DE: Sado-Machism? Not in my GOOD CHRISTIAN SETTING.

Ynnari: Whoever drew the art for the Yvarine had an obvious foot fetish. The only cure for that is fire.

Corsairs: DE lite. Pick a side! Out with them too.

Tyanids: Compete with Orks for big Xenos horde. Orks do it better.

Orks: Compete with Tyranids for big Xenos horde. Tyanids do it better.

Genestealer Cults: No GMOs in this setting, no sir.

Necrons: Take your C'tan and go beat up the other Pokémon.

Tau: Communism.

Hahaha! fething KILL EVERYTHING! HAHAHAHa

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:
There is only one answer to this question: chaos.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without chaos, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "all your victories just strengthens our chaos forces!"-crap.

Not to mention, their rotten tentacle-ridden forces are ugly.

This made me laugh as there's another faction this applies to:


There is only one answer to this question: space marines.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without space marines, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "we suffered great losses but managed to refill our chapter's ranks in time for the next war!"-crap.

Not to mention, their boxy tentacle-devoid forces are ugly.

Well, space marines are a definitely a finite force with their head count of about one million. And the fluff/propaganda would do well to portray them as highly effective shock troopers, instead of winning wars single handedly.

But if we could be done with both chaos and space marines? Done. I wouldn't miss either of them. Imperium is more than the space marines. And chaos isn't really needed any way, unless you really need saturday morning cartoon villains with their spiky shoulder pads.

The only thing wrong about this is that the burning of the heretics wouldn't be the same without chaos. And of course there couldn't be Warhammer 40,000 without Space Marines!

Cadia.

Too soon?

Well, this thread turned into a dumpster fire pretty quick with so many people purposely misunderstanding 40k armies shticks and using that to justify removing them...

 Grimtuff wrote:
Well, this thread turned into a dumpster fire pretty quick with so many people purposely misunderstanding 40k armies shticks and using that to justify removing them...

thats what happens everytime one of these threads turn up

 Jidmah wrote:
Cadia.

Too soon?

This post is underrated.

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
If a faction is wiped out now there will be an outcry. So many people have invested a lot of time & money on armies. It would be a very bad business decision on GWs part.

They did this wholesale with AOS for several factions.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
If a faction is wiped out now there will be an outcry. So many people have invested a lot of time & money on armies. It would be a very bad business decision on GWs part.

They did this wholesale with AOS for several factions.

and that was the lesson that taught them it was a terrible idea to start with and should never have been done.

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
If a faction is wiped out now there will be an outcry. So many people have invested a lot of time & money on armies. It would be a very bad business decision on GWs part.

They did this wholesale with AOS for several factions.

and that was the lesson that taught them it was a terrible idea to start with and should never have been done.

more over I suspect even the unpopular 40k armies may out sell some of the squated WFB factions

BrianDavion wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
If a faction is wiped out now there will be an outcry. So many people have invested a lot of time & money on armies. It would be a very bad business decision on GWs part.

They did this wholesale with AOS for several factions.

and that was the lesson that taught them it was a terrible idea to start with and should never have been done.

more over I suspect even the unpopular 40k armies may out sell some of the squated WFB factions

*glances at High Elves sadly*

Gun to my head seems to be the respectful way to start this. Scions or primaris. I dislike the primaris fluff, i think the models should have just been replacements for normal muhreens. Scions kind of have the same problem where primaris make normal muhreens seem lackluster, scions bridge the cap between humans and super humans which weakens how extreme that gap is suppossed to be.

Lets take it back to normal people and demi god people. Not normal people, special normal people, demi gods and super demi gods

Kill off Ultramarines.
Go George R.R. on 40k.
Instantly makes the setting more interesting.

Also I don't understand people complaining about Chaos being Mary Sues. They seriously lose every battle and fail at everything they try. They are like Gadget's Dr. Claw or Dick Dastardly.
R.G. is the prime example of a Mary Sue that makes the whole setting bland and pointless.

They could not have made this story "progression" any more boring than by introducing Guilleman.

nateprati wrote:
Lets take it back to normal people and demi god people. Not normal people, special normal people, demi gods and super demi gods

Take it back to when? Scions were always in the game (except 1st ed, maybe?), under the name of Stormtroopers.

Table wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

Do not take black library marine porn as actual fluff. Chaos Marines do work. I mean look at the current setting.

You mean don't take the canon lore as the actual lore. Go off some head cannon and hand waving explaining how a depleted batch of legionaries who LOST the HH with no good ways to make more members is somehow at the amount of manpower needed to still be threat. Yet alone well equipped and able to muster into a real army despite infighting be a huge problem. Seems legit.

 mew28 wrote:

Table wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

Do not take black library marine porn as actual fluff. Chaos Marines do work. I mean look at the current setting.

You mean don't take the canon lore as the actual lore. Go off some head cannon and hand waving explaining how a depleted batch of legionaries who LOST the HH with no good ways to make more members is somehow at the amount of manpower needed to still be threat. Yet alone well equipped and able to muster into a real army despite infighting be a huge problem. Seems legit.

No no no, you don't get it. Despite being disparate and in the most dangerous part of the galaxy that's in a constant state of CHAOS, most of the traitor marines from the heresy aren't dead for some reason. When Chaos fights each other in the eye of terror they fire blanks, the 40k equivalent of touch football. Sure, you may think existing in a part of space that doesn't obey the laws of physics and randomly hurls people through time would be HORRIBLY CRIPPLING to an a armies functionality (especially logistically), but chaos forces are all just that awesome that it barely holds them back. I hope that cleared things up for you.

 Mayk0l wrote:
Kill off Ultramarines.
Go George R.R. on 40k.
Instantly makes the setting more interesting.

Also I don't understand people complaining about Chaos being Mary Sues. They seriously lose every battle and fail at everything they try. They are like Gadget's Dr. Claw or Dick Dastardly.
R.G. is the prime example of a Mary Sue that makes the whole setting bland and pointless.

They could not have made this story "progression" any more boring than by introducing Guilleman.

Chaos is looked at as a mary sue faction because losing doesn't bother the demonic portion of their forces as they simply come back later in the warp and every action feeds the chaos gods as well stuff like the daemon primarchs have all of the plot armor of the normal ons as well as the good old "I just reform when you kill me" to make your actions seem pointless. Also as noted else where in the thread logistically they would simply run out of dudes and guns.

On the note of killing the ultramarines that would do very little as a successor chapter would just take their name reform them and as they have bein a major plot point for years just removing them and every action they did in the lore is unfeasible due to the sheer amount of retconing.

Also on the note of RG being unable to lose I would like to point to the gathering storm book the second one he was in where he did lose to demons. More then I can say for Failbandon king of retcons.

Abbadon is highly underrated. Look at just how much he's managed to accomplish *without any arms*! No wonder chaos is so badass.

Sister of Battle. No matter what edition they are the most unfun army to play against and almost always played by TFG's.

My good friend plays them and he's great. Even though I lose constantly.

I can think of no way to make people quit playing faster than to invalidate their army.

 mew28 wrote:

Table wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

Do not take black library marine porn as actual fluff. Chaos Marines do work. I mean look at the current setting.

You mean don't take the canon lore as the actual lore. Go off some head cannon and hand waving explaining how a depleted batch of legionaries who LOST the HH with no good ways to make more members is somehow at the amount of manpower needed to still be threat. Yet alone well equipped and able to muster into a real army despite infighting be a huge problem. Seems legit.

Yea the infighting thing has always kinda irked me, they did the same thing with dark elves in Warhammer fantasy. I understand infighting for orks or another horde faction as it serves as a plot dump as to why they don't steam roll the galaxy but when they push that lore on elite low population factions such as above, I tend to cringe a bit. However not all chaos suffers from infighting.

 mew28 wrote:

Table wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

Do not take black library marine porn as actual fluff. Chaos Marines do work. I mean look at the current setting.

You mean don't take the canon lore as the actual lore. Go off some head cannon and hand waving explaining how a depleted batch of legionaries who LOST the HH with no good ways to make more members is somehow at the amount of manpower needed to still be threat. Yet alone well equipped and able to muster into a real army despite infighting be a huge problem. Seems legit.

So I take it in your headcanon Bile (and by extension The Consortium), Daemon worlds, post heresy recruits and things like the Daemonculaba don't exist?

Kay.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

Table wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

Do not take black library marine porn as actual fluff. Chaos Marines do work. I mean look at the current setting.

You mean don't take the canon lore as the actual lore. Go off some head cannon and hand waving explaining how a depleted batch of legionaries who LOST the HH with no good ways to make more members is somehow at the amount of manpower needed to still be threat. Yet alone well equipped and able to muster into a real army despite infighting be a huge problem. Seems legit.

So I take it in your headcanon Bile (and by extension The Consortium), Daemon worlds, post heresy recruits and things like the Daemonculaba don't exist?

Kay.

Further to this, It's pretty basic knowledge that Warp Shenanigans make trying to actually pin down exact numbers a pain. A ship can disappear for a hundred years to suddenly reappear and have missed a great mustering even though only an hour has passed on the ship. Conversely, a ship could spend 100 years in the eye initiating new recruits to full readiness and equipment, but when they finally emerge it has only been a matter of weeks in real space. Remember, Just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Look at Cawl with the Primaris marines, Nobody knew it was happening, but that didn't mean it wasn't.

Tristanleo wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

Table wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
Chaos for sure it is pretty much just AoS models and spikey marines. Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

Do not take black library marine porn as actual fluff. Chaos Marines do work. I mean look at the current setting.

You mean don't take the canon lore as the actual lore. Go off some head cannon and hand waving explaining how a depleted batch of legionaries who LOST the HH with no good ways to make more members is somehow at the amount of manpower needed to still be threat. Yet alone well equipped and able to muster into a real army despite infighting be a huge problem. Seems legit.

So I take it in your headcanon Bile (and by extension The Consortium), Daemon worlds, post heresy recruits and things like the Daemonculaba don't exist?

Kay.

Further to this, It's pretty basic knowledge that Warp Shenanigans make trying to actually pin down exact numbers a pain. A ship can disappear for a hundred years to suddenly reappear and have missed a great mustering even though only an hour has passed on the ship. Conversely, a ship could spend 100 years in the eye initiating new recruits to full readiness and equipment, but when they finally emerge it has only been a matter of weeks in real space. Remember, Just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Look at Cawl with the Primaris marines, Nobody knew it was happening, but that didn't mean it wasn't.

Well it is true that time is different in the warp it is extremely random even for Chaos and it would average out to be about the same as a normal forge or hive world except that it is in the warp so everything is more dangerous witch would hurt production. On the note of Bile and the Daemonculaba they do make members however they still need geneseed and chaos marines are unable make usable stock so they need to get it from LSM and seeing as how anytime they fight LSM they would need to win the fight to even break if they lost one guy for every LSM killed and could carry on if they never lost a battle and only fought LSM. But they don't they fight other stuff as well and they die to it meaning they would slowly run out of geneseed and die out.

 mew28 wrote:

Well it is true that time is different in the warp it is extremely random even for Chaos and it would average out to be about the same as a normal forge or hive world except that it is in the warp so everything is more dangerous witch would hurt production. On the note of Bile and the Daemonculaba they do make members however they still need geneseed and chaos marines are unable make usable stock so they need to get it from LSM and seeing as how anytime they fight LSM they would need to win the fight to even break if they lost one guy for every LSM killed and could carry on if they never lost a battle and only fought LSM. But they don't they fight other stuff as well and they die to it meaning they would slowly run out of geneseed and die out.

I don't want to sound too confrontational with this, but you ddin't do your homework and read up on what I referenced.

CSM can absolutely make new geneseed. A lot of it is unusable but they have the means to reuse those that are (it's right there in the DG codex in the Plague Surgeon fluff), add in the fact of the Gene-Tithe (which, granted, is EC geneseed; but still...) and other CSM legions would have equivalent banks on their adopted worlds in the Eye they can easily replenish their ranks due to Bile's influence (The guy cloned all 20 Primarchs and various high ranking members of The Imperium FFS), be it from the above, cloning or just enhanced humans from the various Daemon worlds in the Eye.

We also have post heresy recruits. Entire SM chapters can turn to Chaos and take their entire armouries and gene stock with them.

Even if they don't have the required geneseed, Bile has created specialised kill-teams from his New Men called "Gland Hounds", whose sole purpose is hunting Loyalists for their progenoid glands. So the CSM don't even need to get their hands dirty.

Bile's base of operations is on a a former Eldar Crone World where he runs a university cum private army of all of the Legion's disparate Apothecaries who have banded together to learn from Bile (this is The Consortium I referenced earlier), so Bile has taught every CSM Apothecary that wants to learn everything they need to know about replenishing various warbands and the art of fleshcraft.

So with all of this you'll note how CSM are a lot less discerning about where their new members come from. Cloning is generally frowned upon (see Raven Guard and Afriel Strain) within the Imperium. CSM have no such qualms about doing such things.


So how is it so unbelievable that CSM can still exist?