For weeks and weeks people truly believed a rumour that in this Big FAQ guard was going to be nerfed even more.

The biggest rumours were that the normal guardsmen was going up in points and conscripts were going to be nerfed even more. There were people swearing this rumour came from an official 100% legit sauce! However, now the FAQ came out there was no nerf and, in fact, IG got a buff. So I really hope this is a lesson for all of you! When a rumour comes out make sure to scoop up that salt in your hand and keep it there until the rumour is over! People were outright animals when it came to the discussion over this rumour (thinking it was true) and i know it wasn't all of you but if you did get aggressive over this rumour I really hope in the future you contemplate your actions before you type. Moreover, a lot of people basically got aggressive (more than i normally see on DakkaDakka ) for actually no reason. They fought and virtually sacrificed yourselves and each other for nothing.

Please, as much as i love getting into debates here and getting angry, consider that a rumour may just be a rumour. I myself has fallen down that hole many times before and I feel like an idiot at the end of it.

 lolman1c wrote:
They fought and virtually sacrificed yourselves and each other for nothing.

A moment of silence for those who virtually sacrificed their lives in the great Guard war of early 2018.

*shouting into staticy radio*

"The war! It's .... not over! The enemy -bzzzzzt- renewed attack! Not getting nerfed in this FAQ seems to have -pop, hiss- some kind of galvanizing effect! INCOMIII-"

*transmission ends*

Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

tears wont be shed... they are still good

Rumors are rumors and should be dealt with like this.
The new deep striking rule allows AM to spread or adapt before turn 2.
Scions are hit a bit but I guess AM can live with it.

 zedsdead wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

tears wont be shed... they are still good

Right! It amazes me how a lot of people are saying turn 2 DS will destroy the game. Especially the assault meta. After a few test games they'll find out it'll be just fine. After all turn 2 DS has a longer history that turn 1 DS

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

tears wont be shed... they are still good

Right! It amazes me how a lot of people are saying turn 2 DS will destroy the game. Especially the assault meta. After a few test games they'll find out it'll be just fine. After all turn 2 DS has a longer history that turn 1 DS

And when T2 deepstrike was a thing, armor saves were better and you could deepstrike closer than 9”. You could also deepstrike as much of your army as you wanted and anti-tank weapons only did 1 wound to units. You could get 3 hits max on a squad with large blas weapons (like battle cannons). And T1 deepstrike with shooting was still a thing via drop pods.

6 pt kalabites told me the guard was never getting nerfed. Gg wp ig players. Oh wait, you never move and don't even need los. So not a very good game.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
*shouting into staticy radio*

"The war! It's .... not over! The enemy -bzzzzzt- renewed attack! Not getting nerfed in this FAQ seems to have -pop, hiss- some kind of galvanizing effect! INCOMIII-"

*transmission ends*

God help us all, men.

God help us all.

Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Commissar and Conscript nerf says "what?".

Bluntly speaking, Reecius is in "their corner" when it comes to the way he plays. Screw anyone else, his stuff tends to come out okay--which is to say "Soup".

I just quit my local league so i can't be forced to play against ig post-faq. I'm not going to a tournament any time soon, so maybe i'll just avoid them.

*/me laughs in Guardsman*

I am sure it did come from a 'legit sauce'.

The 'sauce' I am detecting is hot troll.

Honestly, drukhari are just as bad.

Martel732 wrote:
I just quit my local league so i can't be forced to play against ig post-faq. I'm not going to a tournament any time soon, so maybe i'll just avoid them.

What are you playing?
Traditionally BA?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

It's a nerf to every deep strike unit. Most of which were very effective against AM. Now AM just sets up a line of 90+ infantry and blows you away with multiple russ and manitcores.

Only effective counter is -1 to hit army trait which is also busted - so that should tell you something.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I just quit my local league so i can't be forced to play against ig post-faq. I'm not going to a tournament any time soon, so maybe i'll just avoid them.

What are you playing?
Traditionally BA?

Yup. My only hope is that gunlines shoot themselves into a hole by december. Until then, ig players can get off with their dice porn with someone else.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

tears wont be shed... they are still good

Right! It amazes me how a lot of people are saying turn 2 DS will destroy the game. Especially the assault meta. After a few test games they'll find out it'll be just fine. After all turn 2 DS has a longer history that turn 1 DS

It has a long history of sucking a lot. Everyone always chose t1 deep strike options like drop pods/ NSF/ That Spacewolf null deploy drop pod list. The only actual t2 reserve units people used were flyers and there were lots of hoops people jumped through to get t1 flyers.

Maybe I'm terrible or the people I play are all tourney players but I am not understanding this hard on hate for IG. Then again I also have mostly followed the rule of 3 before it was even a rule, so that may be an issue right there. I think the rule of 3 will mess a lot more with guardsman than you think. How many mortars will not be taken to quickly fill brigades? Only 3 company commanders will be allowed to be taken, so HQ slots will have to be diverse. Naturally the fast attack slots will have to change as well, so you will see a lot more armoured sentinels and hellhounds on the field.

Triple basilisk triple manticore is still a thing. There are still no weapons that efficiently kill guardsmen. Feth that. The whole codex can die in a fire.

Martel732 wrote:
Triple basilisk triple manticore is still a thing. There are still no weapons that efficiently kill guardsmen. Feth that. The whole codex can die in a fire.

Kind of on the same page here.

If these couldn't hide outside of LOS I would have an answer... as would most people.

And they can bring Basilisks in squads, so it's actually up to 9. Although 3 manticore + 3 basilisk is enough.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

It's a nerf to every deep strike unit. Most of which were very effective against AM. Now AM just sets up a line of 90+ infantry and blows you away with multiple russ and manitcores.

Only effective counter is -1 to hit army trait which is also busted - so that should tell you something.

How where deepstriking units effective agaisnt AM when they had like 3-4 lines of infantry protecting all of those ultra OP manticores? Man, you should be more consistent. You can't spend the last 3-4 months complaining how Deepstriking is absolutely useless again guard and no say that this is a big Buff for guard.

Take the Drukhari codex with you, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

It's a nerf to every deep strike unit. Most of which were very effective against AM. Now AM just sets up a line of 90+ infantry and blows you away with multiple russ and manitcores.

Only effective counter is -1 to hit army trait which is also busted - so that should tell you something.

How where deepstriking units effective agaisnt AM when they had like 3-4 lines of infantry protecting all of those ultra OP manticores? Man, you should be more consistent. You can't spend the last 3-4 months complaining how Deepstriking is absolutely useless again guard and no say that this is a big Buff for guard.

I was getting decent at hostage taking with DC. Now that's dead. Indirect fire needs -1 to hit, guardsmen and russes need point hikes.

I will agree that this change has make the 2 CP stratagem to advance Death Company a little useless, because if you use it, they will be alone in front of the enemy army and will be shoot to death without support deepstriking characters.

Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late. If IG were properly costed, this change would be fine. But they dodged the costing issue. And released the Drukhari. 90 pt talos with 4++? Okay...

 Galas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

It's a nerf to every deep strike unit. Most of which were very effective against AM. Now AM just sets up a line of 90+ infantry and blows you away with multiple russ and manitcores.

Only effective counter is -1 to hit army trait which is also busted - so that should tell you something.

How where deepstriking units effective agaisnt AM when they had like 3-4 lines of infantry protecting all of those ultra OP manticores? Man, you should be more consistent. You can't spend the last 3-4 months complaining how Deepstriking is absolutely useless again guard and no say that this is a big Buff for guard.

I am not Martel - so don't confuse me with him.

Deepstrike was very strong. I play GK/ Eldar/ Tyranids mostly - and now Tau.

DS was a big part of my list design for all these armies. Trust me - I have to deepstrike to do damage to gun lines. The game is over already if I can't get into effective range with my units turn 1. Honestly - it was already pretty tough to beat a screened gunline before. At least I had a chance though. I could get lucky and surround a unit so it can't fall back. Maybe I could deepstrike and blow up a manticore - or tie up a unit of robots. Can't do that now.

I wasn't causing damage. I was taking hostages so I lived. How much damage can you cause to an IG list in one turn? The answer is not much, points wise.

"Deepstrike was very strong."

Maybe for scions and flyrants. For melee, it was sheer desperation.

Martel732 wrote:
Take the Drukhari codex with you, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

It's a nerf to every deep strike unit. Most of which were very effective against AM. Now AM just sets up a line of 90+ infantry and blows you away with multiple russ and manitcores.

Only effective counter is -1 to hit army trait which is also busted - so that should tell you something.

How where deepstriking units effective agaisnt AM when they had like 3-4 lines of infantry protecting all of those ultra OP manticores? Man, you should be more consistent. You can't spend the last 3-4 months complaining how Deepstriking is absolutely useless again guard and no say that this is a big Buff for guard.

I was getting decent at hostage taking with DC. Now that's dead. Indirect fire needs -1 to hit, guardsmen and russes need point hikes.

I can somewhat agree with indirect fire needing -1 to hit if it wasn't for the fact that there is SOOOOOOOO much -1 to hit out there already. Against half the armies out there (since only raven guard, alpha legion and Alaitoc seem to exist for some reason) you are already hitting on 5s and there is very few options for guardsman to boost BS or have rerolls. Unless its -1 if you do not have LOS, then I can live with that. I can 100% agree with guardsman needing to be 5pts per model. Currently as it sits there is no reason to take Conscripts or even Veterans because the basic infantry squad does their job more efficiently. If you had 4 ppm Conscripts, 5ppm IS, and 6ppm Vets it would make for having actual choices when making lists based on what you need your units to do and not what is most efficient (and yes I know Vets are elites, im talking more about combat roles and strategy). For Russes....they are a mixed bag, I would advocate more for a big price hike on basilisks before I go for Russes, last time I checked Russes weren't knocking the door down in tournaments but there were plenty of artillery.

If indirect became usless vs altioc and raven guard, MAYBE IT WOULDN'T GET SPAMMED EVERY GAME.

I'm preemptively jacking up Russes because 150 pt T8 tanks with free shots and free PoTMS are too good.

Not saying IG were hit hard AT ALL, but they did receive some notable nerfs.

-baneblades can't overwatch if there's enemies within 1" now
-"crush them" strategem can only be used on our own turn
-Grand Strategist and Kurov's aquila required the warlord/holder to be physically on the board, making them potentially vulnerable to snipers.

I'm fine with these minor nerfs, as they seemed like poorly worded rules from the beginning anyways. It should be noted that IG players can't spam company commanders now though which can cause a nuisance to some infantry squad heavy lists.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Commissar and Conscript nerf says "what?".

Bluntly speaking, Reecius is in "their corner" when it comes to the way he plays. Screw anyone else, his stuff tends to come out okay--which is to say "Soup".

Didn't Commissars just get a double buff? I don't know enough about most armies to say for certain, but I think commissars are the only unit to get both nerfed and then later buffed. Regardless of whether or not its Reece, something seems off that an army that has always shown up in a large tournament top 8 since 8th edition has started and continues to be an important part of the meta receives little to no nerfs. Especially if GW took almost a month extra time to "analyze tournament results" before the big FAQ. Reece gets too much blame for things that can't be proven, but it does seem like someone is skewing balance.

Flyrants had to deep strike turn 1 so they could jump over screens and deal with artillery turn 2.

If you don't stop the guard artillery from firing as soon as possible, you lose the game.

I have no answer to guard right now, other than my own shooting, which pales in comparison.

Additionally, without deep-striking forward synapse beacons, I can't run across the board and fight them, because i'll lose a ton of bodies to morale.

I can start flyrants on the board, but again, going second? Good night moon.

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Commissar and Conscript nerf says "what?".

Bluntly speaking, Reecius is in "their corner" when it comes to the way he plays. Screw anyone else, his stuff tends to come out okay--which is to say "Soup".

Didn't Commissars just get a double buff? I don't know enough about most armies to say for certain, but I think commissars are the only unit to get both nerfed and then later buffed. Regardless of whether or not its Reece, something seems off that an army that has always shown up in a large tournament top 8 since 8th edition has started and continues to be an important part of the meta receives little to no nerfs. Especially if GW took almost a month extra time to "analyze tournament results" before the big FAQ. Reece gets too much blame for things that can't be proven, but it does seem like someone is skewing balance.

Commissars got their points lowered and their ability tweaked slightly...

But they still suck in comparison to what they originally were(which is a thing that several factions have been given as army traits) and they still will not be taken in many instances. They're garbage tier and while I'm perfectly happy with them being no longer crucial for Guard armies, it's still nonsense that an iconic unit that has behaved in a specific way for every iteration of its existence is basically being shoveled off because of whiny people who couldn't deal with soup lists.

Also, Reece gets blame with regards to the Guard stuff right now because he's been very vocal that how they play now is how he thinks they should play.
Quite frankly, his version of Guard is every bit as bad as Robin Cruddace's. They were made for each other in awfulness.

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

Actually they buffed commissars so that won't work out the way you think. Their leadership will be higher, and hey have "almost ATSNKF."

My primary tool to eliminate screens - Dakka-gants with a Trygon delivery - is no longer possible on turn 1. I can clear screens on turn 2. Or, i start my gaunts on the board, and lose them. 8ppm for a model with a 6+ save and 3T. Yeah.

 Marmatag wrote:
Flyrants had to deep strike turn 1 so they could jump over screens and deal with artillery turn 2.

If you don't stop the guard artillery from firing as soon as possible, you lose the game.

I have no answer to guard right now, other than my own shooting, which pales in comparison.

Additionally, without deep-striking forward synapse beacons, I can't run across the board and fight them, because i'll lose a ton of bodies to morale.

I can start flyrants on the board, but again, going second? Good night moon.

I've submitted a bit to the FAQ stating that Guard Artillery should have a prerequisite for firing at targets they can't see.

Vox-Caster equipped squads have to have LOS to them. Right now, that's one of the better solutions to Guard artillery I can think of outside of making it so that they can make a bunch more shots but at a -2 to Hit.

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

I think people tend to forget just how awful LD is on guardsman, outside of Valhallans. I've had squads decimated from bad rolls just form taking a few losses here and there. Granted commissars got a bit of a buff but even them that means im blowing a chunk of points to get some LD bonuses on the table instead of things like special weapons or more bodies.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Flyrants had to deep strike turn 1 so they could jump over screens and deal with artillery turn 2.

If you don't stop the guard artillery from firing as soon as possible, you lose the game.

I have no answer to guard right now, other than my own shooting, which pales in comparison.

Additionally, without deep-striking forward synapse beacons, I can't run across the board and fight them, because i'll lose a ton of bodies to morale.

I can start flyrants on the board, but again, going second? Good night moon.

I've submitted a bit to the FAQ stating that Guard Artillery should have a prerequisite for firing at targets they can't see.

Vox-Caster equipped squads have to have LOS to them. Right now, that's one of the better solutions to Guard artillery I can think of outside of making it so that they can make a bunch more shots but at a -2 to Hit.

I think maybe MAYBE if a AM unit needs to see the unit being fired upon that might work. Otherwise maybe they can't fire or at least a -1.

The only actual t2 reserve units people used were flyers

That is false. Aeldari players had quite a few good deep strike units that were used a lot even though they came on turn 2 or later. I have a hard time believing people have already forgotten the Warp Spiders. People also used Swooping Hawks, Scourges, and so on. Hell, there was a glory time when people played with Duke Sliscus just to deep strike stuff. None of that stuff was turn 1.

The turn 1 DS is mostly a Space Marine special ability which drop pods brought to the table.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Flyrants had to deep strike turn 1 so they could jump over screens and deal with artillery turn 2.

If you don't stop the guard artillery from firing as soon as possible, you lose the game.

I have no answer to guard right now, other than my own shooting, which pales in comparison.

Additionally, without deep-striking forward synapse beacons, I can't run across the board and fight them, because i'll lose a ton of bodies to morale.

I can start flyrants on the board, but again, going second? Good night moon.

I've submitted a bit to the FAQ stating that Guard Artillery should have a prerequisite for firing at targets they can't see.

Vox-Caster equipped squads have to have LOS to them. Right now, that's one of the better solutions to Guard artillery I can think of outside of making it so that they can make a bunch more shots but at a -2 to Hit.

I would prefer the -1 to hit.

Unless the Vox Caster model is within 24" of the target, then we have a fair deal. Otherwise you just park a few squads in the very back well out of range, and your artillery works as normal for a pittance.

I am so absolutely sick of every table being choked with imperial guard.

 Marmatag wrote:

I would prefer the -1 to hit.

Unless the Vox Caster model is within 24" of the target, then we have a fair deal. Otherwise you just park a few squads in the very back well out of range, and your artillery works as normal for a pittance.

If you want to make it be 24" of the target, then I want more units with access to Vox-Casters.

There's 4. Command Squads, Scions, Infantry, and Veterans.

 Marmatag wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

Actually they buffed commissars so that won't work out the way you think. Their leadership will be higher, and hey have "almost ATSNKF."

My primary tool to eliminate screens - Dakka-gants with a Trygon delivery - is no longer possible on turn 1. I can clear screens on turn 2. Or, i start my gaunts on the board, and lose them. 8ppm for a model with a 6+ save and 3T. Yeah.

commisars only bump guardsmen up to ld8, which means if you take 5 casulties you'd still lose models on a roll of 4+, which then triggers the commissar's ability, if the IG player goes for the reroll he loses a model then still runs the risk of losing more models. So he'd either lose 5 models and pass morale, fail the first time, execute a guy and then pass for 6 models lost, or fail execute and then fail again for at least 7 models lost. in any scenario the guard player is losing at least half a squad, commisars help now but they're not the cure all they used to be.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

I would prefer the -1 to hit.

Unless the Vox Caster model is within 24" of the target, then we have a fair deal. Otherwise you just park a few squads in the very back well out of range, and your artillery works as normal for a pittance.

If you want to make it be 24" of the target, then I want more units with access to Vox-Casters.

There's 4. Command Squads, Scions, Infantry, and Veterans.

So what? You can spam infantry and scions, and scions can deep strike within 9". These are things that are already spammed like crazy.

I've never had a problem with the crap leadership because I don't rely on them sticking around. Just have more guardsmen, it doesn't matter if a few run, they're only there to protect the guns.

I personally think russ-tanks should be cheaper, except probably the Punishers. Russes are honestly pretty bad.

I'm also honestly surprised that there's still complaints about IG everywhere, because they haven't placed highly, like, at all. I haven't had difficulty at all fighting them with any of my armies.

The units that are on my list for "must kill on turn 1" basically boil down to Punisher tanks and Baneblades. Manticores and Basilisks are threatening, but not that threatening, and guardsmen are pretty easy to clear out over a couple of turns of concentrated fire if you wreck or suppress some of the guns that actually kill things. Baneblades are nuts though.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

I would prefer the -1 to hit.

Unless the Vox Caster model is within 24" of the target, then we have a fair deal. Otherwise you just park a few squads in the very back well out of range, and your artillery works as normal for a pittance.

If you want to make it be 24" of the target, then I want more units with access to Vox-Casters.

There's 4. Command Squads, Scions, Infantry, and Veterans.

So what? You can spam infantry and scions, and scions can deep strike within 9". These are things that are already spammed like crazy.

Okay, and...?

There's a reason these units are spammed--and it's not because Vox-Casters are amazing. Scions basically operate without Vox-Casters, period, because of the fact that they aren't going to be within Orders range and they are separate from the <Regiment> they're usually taken with. Add to it that Vox-Casters don't really do much for your Orders range and it becomes a "Why bother?" thing in many cases.

By making it so that Special and Heavy Weapon Squads gain access to Vox-Casters, it means those things will actually be (bear with me here!) possibly considered for fielding since they can then be given Orders from Officers who aren't sitting right there.

And realistically, Sentinels of both flavors should have something relating to Artillery since they've long been mentioned as having targeting equipment for artillery units to feed off of.

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late. If IG were properly costed, this change would be fine. But they dodged the costing issue. And released the Drukhari. 90 pt talos with 4++? Okay...

97 points for their cheapest loadout (Although you'll probably want to pay 98 for the two macro-scalpels, chainflails are garbage). Additionally, they have no method of special delivery, so they're stuck slogging up the table.

They're pretty comparable to a Screamer Killer, really. They trade raw damage output and access to a static -1 to hit for a 4++ and a bit of extra mobility. They also require a nearby Haemonculus in order to get T7.

Still pretty damn good against most lists.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I've never had a problem with the crap leadership because I don't rely on them sticking around. Just have more guardsmen, it doesn't matter if a few run, they're only there to protect the guns.

I personally think russ-tanks should be cheaper, except probably the Punishers. Russes are honestly pretty bad.

I'm also honestly surprised that there's still complaints about IG everywhere, because they haven't placed highly, like, at all. I haven't had difficulty at all fighting them with any of my armies.

The units that are on my list for "must kill on turn 1" basically boil down to Punisher tanks and Baneblades. Manticores and Basilisks are threatening, but not that threatening, and guardsmen are pretty easy to clear out over a couple of turns of concentrated fire if you wreck or suppress some of the guns that actually kill things. Baneblades are nuts though.

"Russes are honestly pretty bad."

I did not know Talos were only 90 points base. Sheesh. But then again, my Spyders are 65 points and can bring scarabs back and heal vehicles, sooooo....Okay.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I've never had a problem with the crap leadership because I don't rely on them sticking around. Just have more guardsmen, it doesn't matter if a few run, they're only there to protect the guns.

I personally think russ-tanks should be cheaper, except probably the Punishers. Russes are honestly pretty bad.

I'm also honestly surprised that there's still complaints about IG everywhere, because they haven't placed highly, like, at all. I haven't had difficulty at all fighting them with any of my armies.

The units that are on my list for "must kill on turn 1" basically boil down to Punisher tanks and Baneblades. Manticores and Basilisks are threatening, but not that threatening, and guardsmen are pretty easy to clear out over a couple of turns of concentrated fire if you wreck or suppress some of the guns that actually kill things. Baneblades are nuts though.

"Russes are honestly pretty bad."

I know right?

Martel732 wrote:
(Talos are) pretty damn good against most lists.

They're solid, but definitely not an auto-take, nor are they going to cause the meta to shift in any major direction. Ravagers and Razorwing Fighters are still the toppest of dogs in that book.

Although I'd argue that even those still pale in comparison to the new and improved Guard parking lot. They were already too good to begin with, but now that most armies have no way to properly intercept their gunlines anymore, it's going to get seriously messy.

 Fafnir wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
(Talos are) pretty damn good against most lists.

They're solid, but definitely not an auto-take, nor are they going to cause the meta to shift in any major direction. Ravagers and Razorwing Fighters are still the toppest of dogs in that book.

Although I'd argue that even those still pale in comparison to the new and improved Guard parking lot. They were already too good to begin with, but now that most armies have no way to properly intercept their gunlines anymore, it's going to get seriously messy.

The Razorwing is finally good? My god man, it's the end of days!

Yeah, I haven't fought against Guards parking lot yet, but I imagine it's just ridiculous.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I've never had a problem with the crap leadership because I don't rely on them sticking around. Just have more guardsmen, it doesn't matter if a few run, they're only there to protect the guns.

I personally think russ-tanks should be cheaper, except probably the Punishers. Russes are honestly pretty bad.

I'm also honestly surprised that there's still complaints about IG everywhere, because they haven't placed highly, like, at all. I haven't had difficulty at all fighting them with any of my armies.

The units that are on my list for "must kill on turn 1" basically boil down to Punisher tanks and Baneblades. Manticores and Basilisks are threatening, but not that threatening, and guardsmen are pretty easy to clear out over a couple of turns of concentrated fire if you wreck or suppress some of the guns that actually kill things. Baneblades are nuts though.

"Russes are honestly pretty bad."

They are. The exception is Punisher tanks, which are good, and Tank Commanders, which are adequate.

I've spelled this out before: A Leman Russ Tank outputs 2d6 shots at BS4+, S8, AP2, Dd3, direct fire. For about 10 points less, a Manticore outputs 2d6 shots at BS4+, S10, AP2, Dd3, indirect fire. Indirect fire is stronger than T8 and means the manticore doesn't ever need to move, which negates the only actual superior stat the russ-tank has. And, of course, going from S8 to S10 is situationally useful, though few of the T8 vehicles are really all that great.

Tank Commanders are passable because they're self-buffing and BS3+. Re-rolling shot output and hitting on 3's makes them viable at cost. Punishers are passable because they perform a task that there's nothing that's really good at.

Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
(Talos are) pretty damn good against most lists.

They're solid, but definitely not an auto-take, nor are they going to cause the meta to shift in any major direction. Ravagers and Razorwing Fighters are still the toppest of dogs in that book.

Although I'd argue that even those still pale in comparison to the new and improved Guard parking lot. They were already too good to begin with, but now that most armies have no way to properly intercept their gunlines anymore, it's going to get seriously messy.

The Razorwing is finally good? My god man, it's the end of days!

Yeah, I haven't fought against Guards parking lot yet, but I imagine it's just ridiculous.

It's not. I've done it quite a bit, with Guard, Sisters, Wolves, and now Custodians. Custodians have it hardest, with no efficient long-range antitank weapons and aren't super fast. Guard have it easiest, I have a Shadowsword to wreck their tanks and my own Manticore and Basilisks can play with theirs; tit-for-tat. Wolves did fine, but I can't outflank/jump pack wolf guard to get plasma and storm bolters up close anymore, so I'll have to think of a new plan. I'll also have to think of something new with Sisters, since I can't run 5 squads of Dominions in Immolators anymore, so there's a 40% reduction in melta/storm bolter crossing the board on turn 1.

The big deal with the new FAQ is it'll give the troopers time to spread out, thus driving my plasmaguns out of Rapid Fire range on their turn 2 arrival. Lascannon Longfangs or Predators can still assassinate a tank on turn 1, but they can't win a protracted gun duel with the heavy artillery, and the inability to bring in guys close on time and on target is going to make me revisit my lists before next game. With Sisters, dropping to running BSS cuts my special weapon density by 40%, and they can't get into range T1, so that hurts too. Its 40% less T1 firepower, and the late arriving firepower is also reduced 40% from it's potential, so that' really does sting.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

I don't honestly think so, at least, not nearly as much as it was to everyone else. All-scion armies aren't a frequent thing I've seen, and 5 man Scion squads are 3 PL. If you had a unit on the board before for each deep striking Scion (which you would have needed previously anyway), then you almost certainly have the PL requirement covered.

Far as not deep striking first turn? No one can do that now. Yeah, that kinda hurts Scions a bit, but they're in the army with the most long range firepower in the game. Scions might be down a bit, but IG made out like a bandit with the beta DS rule. I've spent the last year of my life cheerleading about how Guard aren't too powerful. I suspect that the beta is going to radically cause a power shift in favor of them.

Compare to the opposite extreme: GK basically got nothing out of the DS rule, and on top of it, they can't even counterweight their deep strikers with cheap units of infantry/acolytes anymore.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Bare-bones Catachan Conquerors are very good for 155 points.
Cadian Russes are pretty good if you have Pask to give them Pound Them to Dust, and very good if you can leverage Overlapping Fields of Fire. I run them with Battlecannons and Plasma Sponsons.

 zedsdead wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

tears wont be shed... they are still good

That's actually part of the deeper issue. Scions are so cheap you don't care if they're in reserves for one more turn. They drop and die. Simple as that.

Then Obliterators and Destroyers have enough range in their guns that it's only a slight hit to them. Melee WAS the most affected here, whether you want to admit it or not.

 gbghg wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

Actually they buffed commissars so that won't work out the way you think. Their leadership will be higher, and hey have "almost ATSNKF."

My primary tool to eliminate screens - Dakka-gants with a Trygon delivery - is no longer possible on turn 1. I can clear screens on turn 2. Or, i start my gaunts on the board, and lose them. 8ppm for a model with a 6+ save and 3T. Yeah.

commisars only bump guardsmen up to ld8, which means if you take 5 casulties you'd still lose models on a roll of 4+, which then triggers the commissar's ability, if the IG player goes for the reroll he loses a model then still runs the risk of losing more models. So he'd either lose 5 models and pass morale, fail the first time, execute a guy and then pass for 6 models lost, or fail execute and then fail again for at least 7 models lost. in any scenario the guard player is losing at least half a squad, commisars help now but they're not the cure all they used to be.

Yep... but they're 4pts per model so... If I have 10 marines and I lose the same amount I'm basically in the same scenario but at 3X the cost of a guards squad.

4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

 lolman1c wrote:

 gbghg wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

Actually they buffed commissars so that won't work out the way you think. Their leadership will be higher, and hey have "almost ATSNKF."

My primary tool to eliminate screens - Dakka-gants with a Trygon delivery - is no longer possible on turn 1. I can clear screens on turn 2. Or, i start my gaunts on the board, and lose them. 8ppm for a model with a 6+ save and 3T. Yeah.

commisars only bump guardsmen up to ld8, which means if you take 5 casulties you'd still lose models on a roll of 4+, which then triggers the commissar's ability, if the IG player goes for the reroll he loses a model then still runs the risk of losing more models. So he'd either lose 5 models and pass morale, fail the first time, execute a guy and then pass for 6 models lost, or fail execute and then fail again for at least 7 models lost. in any scenario the guard player is losing at least half a squad, commisars help now but they're not the cure all they used to be.

Yep... but they're 4pts per model so... If I have 10 marines and I lose the same amount I'm basically in the same scenario but at 3X the cost of a guards squad.

Even if you bump up the price that'll still be true to a large degree, you can come at it from the other end and make marines cheaper but it won't change the fact that guard are more efficient in a war of attrition than marines, I don't think that fact should change but you could take steps to bump up marines defense or offense or make guard die easier but I don't think that will be a simple fix, a lot of it seems to be down to the core rules of the edition favouring cheap bodies over tougher more expensive ones.

perilsensitive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Bare-bones Catachan Conquerors are very good for 155 points.
Cadian Russes are pretty good if you have Pask to give them Pound Them to Dust, and very good if you can leverage Overlapping Fields of Fire. I run them with Battlecannons and Plasma Sponsons.

Don't. Plasmacannons will make your tanks too expensive. Anything but heavy bolters will make your tank too expensive and won't return on value.

Xenomancers wrote:Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Here's the breakdown, assuming the tanks are Cadian or Catachan:

A Tank Commander gets 1 order per turn, which he can use on himself or another tank. Hint, since he hits on 3's and his friend hits on 4's, he's going to use it on himself to get the most out of it. A Cadian Tank Commander uses his order to re-roll the number of shots he outputs and natively re-roll's 1 as long as he's stationary, a Catachan Tank Commander uses his order to re-roll 1's and natively re-rolls the number of shots he outputs. The Catachan tank can therefore move while the Cadian tank cannot, but the difference is academic.

A normal tank gets its regimental benefit, but not an order. It could hypothetically get an order. Those extra shots from the re-roll go farther when you're BS3+ than when your BS4+.

There are 2 varieties of Leman Russ that are relevant: Leman Russ Battle Tanks [the normal kind], and Leman Russ Punishers [the gatling gun kind]. The other tanks either act like the Battle Tank [Executioner, Eradicator], the Punisher [Exterminator], or are just garbage [Vanquisher, Demolisher]. There are 2 from Forge World [Conqueror, Annihilator].


A Battle Tank outputs 2d6 shots at S8, AP2, Dd3. I'll make some charts later showing the distribution, but against T7/3+:
An Ordinary Tank with no Buffs outputs about 3 damage per turn. 7 shots, 3.5 hits, 2.3 wounds, 1.5 failed saves, 3 damage.
A Ordinary Cadian Tank without orders outputs about 3.5 damage per turn.
A Ordinary Catachan Tank without orders outputs about 4 damage per turn.
A Ordinary Tank, fully buffed, outputs 4.5 damage per turn.
A Tank Commander, who will always be fully buffed since he's the source of the buff, output about 6.2 damage per turn.

Out of the box, a TC is 45 points more than a ordinary tank.


A Punisher tank or Tank Commander Punisher does not benefit from the re-rolling shot output. Unfortunately, the tank version of re-rolling 1's doesn't turn into full re-rolls if you sit still, unlike the infantry version. Therefore, a Cadian Tank Commander Punisher could hypothetically give his order to a ordinary Cadian Leman Russ Battle Tank.

The final consideration is Overlapping Fields of Fire, which can give +1 to hit to Cadian units shooting at a designated target. It's 2CPso for 2CP, a nearby TC going without his order's buff, and a unit that can deal a wound to the target unit, you can make a single ordinary tank act like a tank commander. Or you could have just paid the 45 points to make him a Tank Commander too.

You can also pay 10 points to make a Cadian Tank Commander Knight Commander Pask, buffing him to BS2+ and allowing him to buff a friend tank as well. He's the thing tipping the scales between Catachan and Cadian tank lists.


Another thing between Tank Commanders and ordinary tanks is that there's no additional cost for the TC's Lascannons or Heavy Bolter Sponsons or Storm Bolter. He pays the BS4+ discount, but is BS3+, so all his upgrades are more points-efficient too.

The basic fact of the matter is that basic russes are actually not great at all; but Commanders, for their 197 point bast cost [209 w/ Lascannon, 227 fully loaded], are solidly okay.


We can compare tank commanders with a lascannon predator, which un-buffed outputs 5 damage for 190 [7 damage for 190+cost of babysitters if he's buffed, though babysitters can buff multiple tanks for increased value.]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Just an FYI, CC's buff 2 units, so you're paying 15 points for the double fire output.

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

 Xenomancers wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

60's a little short on infantry, unless you've brought a Baneblade.

The enemy will go through them like butter. They might not T1 all of them, but by T2 you're not going to have an effective screen left.

Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

60's a little short on infantry, unless you've brought a Baneblade.

The enemy will go through them like butter. They might not T1 all of them, but by T2 you're not going to have an effective screen left.

agains 9 bassilcs and 3 manticor the enemy wont have a turn t3 to make you pay for that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

tears wont be shed... they are still good

That's actually part of the deeper issue. Scions are so cheap you don't care if they're in reserves for one more turn. They drop and die. Simple as that.

Then Obliterators and Destroyers have enough range in their guns that it's only a slight hit to them. Melee WAS the most affected here, whether you want to admit it or not.

It's a turn of shooting IG has to suffer from something they would have killed previously.

Obliterators move 4". If you want to hit anything on the back edge it's going to take until turn 3 to do so while you hope that they don't move.

Martel732 wrote:
Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

This is a true statement.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

perilsensitive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Bare-bones Catachan Conquerors are very good for 155 points.
Cadian Russes are pretty good if you have Pask to give them Pound Them to Dust, and very good if you can leverage Overlapping Fields of Fire. I run them with Battlecannons and Plasma Sponsons.

Don't. Plasmacannons will make your tanks too expensive. Anything but heavy bolters will make your tank too expensive and won't return on value.

Plasma Cannon Russ costs 14 points more. They gain more value than Heavy Bolters from the Cadian tank order/doctrine, and Overlapping Fields of Fire. I disagree with you that 14 points makes a Russ overcosted, at least for Cadian ones.

Martel732 wrote:Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

Here's a list of things that chew up Guardsmens adequately quickly:
Asscannon Razorback [116] [6.8/turn, 9.2 if buffed]
Immolation Flamer Immolator [105] [5.5/turn]
Dominions w/ 5 Storm Bolters [60] [6/turn]
Wolf Guard Bikers w/ 5 Storm Bolters [190] [12/turn, 16 if buffed]
Leman Russ Punisher [150-168] [14/turn]
Skitarii Vanguard [40] [3/turn]
Skitarii Rangers [35] [3/turn]

Guardsmen are on the high side of survivability curve, but not drastically so. The average unit takes about 3-4 times it's cost to knock out in 1 turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 perilsensitive wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

perilsensitive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Bare-bones Catachan Conquerors are very good for 155 points.
Cadian Russes are pretty good if you have Pask to give them Pound Them to Dust, and very good if you can leverage Overlapping Fields of Fire. I run them with Battlecannons and Plasma Sponsons.

Don't. Plasmacannons will make your tanks too expensive. Anything but heavy bolters will make your tank too expensive and won't return on value.

Plasma Cannon Russ costs 14 points more. They gain more value than Heavy Bolters from the Cadian tank order/doctrine, and Overlapping Fields of Fire. I disagree with you that 14 points makes a Russ overcosted, at least for Cadian ones.

Leman Russ Tank Commander with Heavy Bolters vs. Leman Russ Tank Commander with Plasma Cannons:
T3
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3/6 wounds
T4
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2.5 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3/6 wounds
T7
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 1.5 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2.5/5 wounds
T8
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 1.5 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 1.2 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2/4 wounds

You're not getting your points worth from those plasma cannons.

I can make plots later, because averages sometimes mislead, but there's some numbers-at-a-glance.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

This is a true statement.

That's because GW, as well as a lot of players, falsely assume that a high volume of shots on a weapon equates to it suddenly being good for dealing with hordes, when this has been demonstrated time and again in 8th as clearly not being the case.

A proper horde killer needs to be designed specifically around punishing low-value statlines and high volume units, turning their poor statlines against them.

Good anti-horde weaponry could come from a variety of features. For example, extra attacks against large unit sizes punishes blobbing. Generating extra hits on unsaved wounds is also a great way to punish low save values commonly found on horde units.

3-4 times to kill stuff is average units shooting average units. Expecting to get 25-33% points back isn't very good. Most top tier stuff is 40%+, i.e. a 2.5 times counter.

So in other words you should be able to pay 10 points to kill a guardsmen.

Only the dominions reach that on your list and that is because they are underpriced (12 points for double a more expensive tactical marines firepower). The Punisher is okay I guess.

Tyel wrote:
3-4 times to kill stuff is average units shooting average units. Expecting to get 25-33% points back isn't very good. Most top tier stuff is 40%+, i.e. a 2.5 times counter.

So in other words you should be able to pay 10 points to kill a guardsmen.

Only the dominions reach that on your list and that is because they are underpriced (12 points for double a more expensive tactical marines firepower). The Punisher is okay I guess.

Huh?

3-4 x cost gets about 12-16 points-to-kill-a-guardsman.

Guardsmen, in a single turn, can kill approximately .33 guardsmen per turn. They can kill .1 Space Marines per turn. That's about 1.2 points per turn, which is just under a third of their value.

I think the numbers are reasonable. 12-16 points to kill, and killing 1.2 points per turn, is pretty much fair.

A Space Marine takes about 50 points to kill for 13 points, and does about 2.8 points per turn to the enemy.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nothing goes through guardsmen like butter. That's the problem.

This is a true statement.

That's because GW, as well as a lot of players, falsely assume that a high volume of shots on a weapon equates to it suddenly being good for dealing with hordes, when this has been demonstrated time and again in 8th as clearly not being the case.

A proper horde killer needs to be designed specifically around punishing low-value statlines and high volume units, turning their poor statlines against them.

Good anti-horde weaponry could come from a variety of features. For example, extra attacks against large unit sizes punishes blobbing. Generating extra hits on unsaved wounds is also a great way to punish low save values commonly found on horde units.

Some things in Sigmar have this (plus the bleeding over of wounds would definitely make a difference, except anti tank weapons would suddenly be the best horde killers!) like poison wind mortars where it adds +1 to hit over 10 and D6 to 6 wounds if over 20. This could easily translate to things like flamers doing 6 instead of D6 hits if a unit is over 20 or the like (or 3+D3), and I think a lot of weapons could make the cut for that and still not be "too" effective when it comes to killing other things.

 Blacksails wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
They fought and virtually sacrificed yourselves and each other for nothing.

A moment of silence for those who virtually sacrificed their lives in the great Guard war of early 2018.

Bahahahaahahaha!

None of the listed options are efficient on a per point basis. For example, paying 116 to kill 28 pts of guardsmen is insanity.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

Ice_can wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

60's a little short on infantry, unless you've brought a Baneblade.

The enemy will go through them like butter. They might not T1 all of them, but by T2 you're not going to have an effective screen left.

agains 9 bassilcs and 3 manticor the enemy wont have a turn t3 to make you pay for that.

Is the player bringing 9 basilisks and 3 manticore's also building a wall out of every terrain piece on the board to hide them behind? Because i'd be impressed if they managed to hide all them out of LOS of every unit on your side of the board and neither of those vehicles are what you'd call tough, get some shots into them, knock them down a profile and their damage output will start dropping fast.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Leman Russ Tank Commander with Heavy Bolters vs. Leman Russ Tank Commander with Plasma Cannons:
T3
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3/6 wounds
T4
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 3 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2.5 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 3/6 wounds
T7
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 1.5 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2.5/5 wounds
T8
Bolter 16 points: 6 shots, 4.7 hits, 1.5 wounds
Plasma 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 1.2 wounds
Plasma Overload 30 points: 5 shots, 3.8 hits, 2/4 wounds

You're not getting your points worth from those plasma cannons.

I can make plots later, because averages sometimes mislead, but there's some numbers-at-a-glance.

2 things: for less than double the cost of 2 Heavy Bolters, you are getting more than double the wounds of 2 heavy bolters (overcharge, obv)
You also didn't factor in armor penetration.

Again, I would only do this for Cadian Russes, when they can reroll the number of shots AND reroll 1s, and possibly +1 to hit.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Tyel wrote:
3-4 times to kill stuff is average units shooting average units. Expecting to get 25-33% points back isn't very good. Most top tier stuff is 40%+, i.e. a 2.5 times counter.

So in other words you should be able to pay 10 points to kill a guardsmen.

Only the dominions reach that on your list and that is because they are underpriced (12 points for double a more expensive tactical marines firepower). The Punisher is okay I guess.

Huh?

3-4 x cost gets about 12-16 points-to-kill-a-guardsman.

Guardsmen, in a single turn, can kill approximately .33 guardsmen per turn. They can kill .1 Space Marines per turn. That's about 1.2 points per turn, which is just under a third of their value.

I think the numbers are reasonable. 12-16 points to kill, and killing 1.2 points per turn, is pretty much fair.

A Space Marine takes about 50 points to kill for 13 points, and does about 2.8 points per turn to the enemy.

Guardsmen are not generally considered optimised to kill marines - or anything really.

But still - outside rapid fire range.
Guardsmen shooting Marines,
1/2*1/3*1/3*13/4=18% return.
So about 72 points to kill a marine - half that in rapid fire range.

Marine shooting guardsmen,
2/3*2/3*2/3*4/13=9.1% return.
Or 44 points to kill a guardsmen - half that in rapid fire range.

So Guardsmen do about twice as much damage (in terms of points) to marines as marines do to guardsmen.
Which isn't perhaps a great comparison - because almost every troops choice in the game has more efficient shooting than tactical marines.
But still - throw in a few plasma weapons - or a whole host of weapons with S5 and/or AP and this boosts the damage output against marines even more. If you start giving marines special weapons its easy to start getting 50% efficiency in shooting them with many options - which is bad for the marine player.
There is no comparable weapon that mows down guardsmen.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

Not only this but his new list this year is a Tau one he is starting. He also runs a business that is dependent on selling all the models he purchases not just 1 of the three he plays (and the one he chooses to not play competitively).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Commissar and Conscript nerf says "what?".

Bluntly speaking, Reecius is in "their corner" when it comes to the way he plays. Screw anyone else, his stuff tends to come out okay--which is to say "Soup".

yeah I notice the soup nerf was pretty minor, because most people run their soups by detachment for the sweet sweet detachment bonuses

 gbghg wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm Guardsman are insane.

It's more economical to just buy more models (points), than to support them. A Company Commander can order DoubleShooting for 30 points, 1W; or you can take the same effect (x2 lasgun shots), but gain 9 wounds, board presence, etc; for 40 points.

There's no way to deal with them, in relation to their points cost/durability/damage output.

T3, Sv5+, 1-2 shots per model, for 4ppm. They are hands down the best trooper, and output the most damage for a main line troop/screening, across all armies.

Pretty funny - I posted a list which is essentially an ideal IG gunline - and a bunch of IG players were trying to tell me how bad it was - and that I was going to lose all 60 infantry on turn 1. LOL.

60's a little short on infantry, unless you've brought a Baneblade.

The enemy will go through them like butter. They might not T1 all of them, but by T2 you're not going to have an effective screen left.

agains 9 bassilcs and 3 manticor the enemy wont have a turn t3 to make you pay for that.

Is the player bringing 9 basilisks and 3 manticore's also building a wall out of every terrain piece on the board to hide them behind? Because i'd be impressed if they managed to hide all them out of LOS of every unit on your side of the board and neither of those vehicles are what you'd call tough, get some shots into them, knock them down a profile and their damage output will start dropping fast.

They just create a line along the back of the DZ or create 2 corner parking lots and you can hide models behind other models even if the predators could destroy one parking lot (good luck) they can't be at both ends of a table at once.

Also, there's fall faq AND ca.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Reece you there?

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

That makes sense. Consdiering Guilliman keeps getting nerfed and Ravengaurd have the most busted tactic in the game. Not to mention the only powerful stratagem in the marine codex - which is now effectively the only method for marines to leave their deployment zone other that walking.

I'm on day 3 of "How do I get half my PL of khorne daemons to survive turn 1?". No answers yet. Bloodcrushers went from "Kinda ok if I DotW a big squad in along side a Herald" to "Worst PL usage for deepstrike allowance".

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

That makes sense. Consdiering Guilliman keeps getting nerfed and Ravengaurd have the most busted tactic in the game. Not to mention the only powerful stratagem in the marine codex - which is now effectively the only method for marines to leave their deployment zone other that walking.

Yeah because a single playtester is surely responsible for the design of the Codex: Space Marines.

 Galas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

...You're aware that Reece's competitive list is Codex: Space Marines, right? He plays Raptors.

That makes sense. Consdiering Guilliman keeps getting nerfed and Ravengaurd have the most busted tactic in the game. Not to mention the only powerful stratagem in the marine codex - which is now effectively the only method for marines to leave their deployment zone other that walking.

Yeah because a single playtester is surely responsible for the design of the Codex: Space Marines.

He is also one of the heads of ITC which gives him significantly more weight than just "a single playtester." I agree that there's no proof its actually him skewing balance, but thinking he has just as much weight as some random dude who showed up on playtest day is pretty mistaken. Especially since a significant chunk of tournament data comes from FLG's app.

StarHunter25 wrote:
I'm on day 3 of "How do I get half my PL of khorne daemons to survive turn 1?". No answers yet. Bloodcrushers went from "Kinda ok if I DotW a big squad in along side a Herald" to "Worst PL usage for deepstrike allowance".

I'd deploy Skull Cannons, Wingthirsters, and Characters down on the board, DS a standard letterbomb plus skulltaker. The real struggle is how to get to double battalion or brigade (because you want the CP - even if just the one letterbomb gets in if you have enough CP to just keep burning them you'll do serious damage)

The one nice thing about the FAQ in relation to guard is it cuts down on the numbers of those goddamn mortars significantly, which means they don't have a super points efficient way of removing infantry outside of lasgun range. 9 mortars, assuming you're playing an opponent competitive enough to do that, removes 7 bloodletters in a round of shooting.

The next best way they have to get upfront shooting is a Wyvern, which deals about as much as 1.5 mortar squads to GEQ/bloodletters, but which costs 93 points vs 27.

Not so fast. I play against a guy with 20 infantry squads and yup, 20 mortars.

The whole 0 line of sight while providing the same firepower thing needs to go. Where's the tradeoff? Yeah the units are less durable, who cares if they don't ever have to move out?

mungkorn88 wrote:
The whole 0 line of sight while providing the same firepower thing needs to go. Where's the tradeoff? Yeah the units are less durable, who cares if they don't ever have to move out?

Yeah... And these units often have insane range too. Even if it wasn't a balance issue (which it is), it would still be super boring. There is zero tactics involved, the attacker doesn't need to do anything in order to attack, and the defender cannot do anything to avoid or mitigate the attack.

Also some tables in our store provide absolute perfect artillery cover, even if you see their deployment zone you cannot fire at them because they sit in a hole in the table.

The 4+ BS that IG players complain about is pretty much redundant with the tons of rerolls that they get. I'd take 4+ bs while having that range and firepower with rerolls over a 3+ bs that most of my deathguard shooting has. I usually don't even reach artillery.

Btw since artillery doesn't see vehicles usually, does that mean you get cover against it? Since the vehicle is in theory 100% obstructed

mungkorn88 wrote:

Btw since artillery doesn't see vehicles usually, does that mean you get cover against it? Since the vehicle is in theory 100% obstructed

If the target vehicle is in terrain, then yes.

 DominayTrix wrote:

He is also one of the heads of ITC which gives him significantly more weight than just "a single playtester." I agree that there's no proof its actually him skewing balance, but thinking he has just as much weight as some random dude who showed up on playtest day is pretty mistaken. Especially since a significant chunk of tournament data comes from FLG's app.

These are all the people and groups involved in playtesting:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/19/the-big-faq-words-from-the-playtesters/

 Crimson wrote:

mungkorn88 wrote:

Btw since artillery doesn't see vehicles usually, does that mean you get cover against it? Since the vehicle is in theory 100% obstructed

If the target vehicle is in terrain, then yes.

What terrain would that be? The vehicle is obstructed by the fact that you do not see it directly through whatever is there on the table.

the_scotsman wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
I'm on day 3 of "How do I get half my PL of khorne daemons to survive turn 1?". No answers yet. Bloodcrushers went from "Kinda ok if I DotW a big squad in along side a Herald" to "Worst PL usage for deepstrike allowance".

I'd deploy Skull Cannons, Wingthirsters, and Characters down on the board, DS a standard letterbomb plus skulltaker. The real struggle is how to get to double battalion or brigade (because you want the CP - even if just the one letterbomb gets in if you have enough CP to just keep burning them you'll do serious damage)

The one nice thing about the FAQ in relation to guard is it cuts down on the numbers of those goddamn mortars significantly, which means they don't have a super points efficient way of removing infantry outside of lasgun range. 9 mortars, assuming you're playing an opponent competitive enough to do that, removes 7 bloodletters in a round of shooting.

The next best way they have to get upfront shooting is a Wyvern, which deals about as much as 1.5 mortar squads to GEQ/bloodletters, but which costs 93 points vs 27.

Easy peasy for double battalion.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:

He is also one of the heads of ITC which gives him significantly more weight than just "a single playtester." I agree that there's no proof its actually him skewing balance, but thinking he has just as much weight as some random dude who showed up on playtest day is pretty mistaken. Especially since a significant chunk of tournament data comes from FLG's app.

These are all the people and groups involved in playtesting:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/19/the-big-faq-words-from-the-playtesters/

I doubt theres any one person skewing anything who isn't a GW rules writer. From what I understand they simply forward the data and give suggestions, many of which are not heeded. Its GW that looks at the numbers and decides what to do with the information. Its even harder for FLG to "skew" the data when its from hundreds of small tournaments using their formats sending the data to their app (and if I ran a tourney and saw that they had changed what I had inputted I would be furious, you bet everyone would know about it). At the end of the day GW's rules writers are the final stop for all of these decisions, not Reece, not the guys at Nova, not the guys at Adepticon, etc. (and possibly the marketing team if they need to sell more Basilisk kits =P)

mungkorn88 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

mungkorn88 wrote:

Btw since artillery doesn't see vehicles usually, does that mean you get cover against it? Since the vehicle is in theory 100% obstructed

If the target vehicle is in terrain, then yes.

What terrain would that be? The vehicle is obstructed by the fact that you do not see it directly through whatever is there on the table.

Pretty sure that cover saves for being obscured isn't a thing in 8th edition.

mungkorn88 wrote:

What terrain would that be? The vehicle is obstructed by the fact that you do not see it directly through whatever is there on the table.

Ruin, woods or something that works similarly to those. Non-infantry models need to be in such terrain and at least 50% obscured to be in cover (which is silly, but that's the rules.) Note that they don't need be 50% obscured by the same piece of terrain in which they are, they can be obscured by anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pretty sure that cover saves for being obscured isn't a thing in 8th edition.

It is, but only in conjunction with being in the terrain and only for non-infantry models.

The rule of 3 and tacres beta rule prohibits plasma cms spam. It was nerfed and it was justified.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

Scions got nerfed but gunlines received a huge buff.

Pandabeer wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

Scions got nerfed but gunlines received a huge buff.

Taurox Primes are your friend, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!

For what little Scions cost compared to how much they can do, the nerf is not going to change anyone's mind on them. They're still abusively good. The fact that the rest of the Guardline army got massively buffed also isn't going to change much either. Your opponents are going to have to come forward to deal with you, and that's when Scions will strike.