So something really weird just happened in my hobby store. I walked in, and confessed to the store manager that I was ditching my GK squads from my list, because they are less then stellar performers in my most recent games. I play a AM/GK soup mix, of GK Terminator squads and AM/Scion infantry support.
Anyway, I told him I wanted to buy Custodes because they looked awesome and I heard they are pretty awesome mixing with Guard. That's when it happened.
He basically called me out for wanting to play a cheese list, "like a dill weed". He also stated that no one likes Custodes players, and I'm wrong for liking them. "Every loser wants to play SCs on Bikes". He then told me that he could kick anyone's ass with GK, because they are super badass right now. I argued this and said they are overpriced, and hampering my ability to be effective in matched play. The smite never comes off, their weapons are pitiful, and their HQ is a joke.
Am I wrong, are GK's still viable? Their play style required their DS ability, which has been gimped, and they all smite on 5+. Am I not doing it right?
roflmao. Well nobody has claimed store managers are always a) correct b) particularly good marketing guy.
Apart from him being so out of touch about power level he's HORRIBLE sales person. Apart from not insulting customers he basically missed the fact here you are considering NEW ARMY. Rather than insulting you he should be aiming to get you buy models.
Lol. If he's owner that store is likely bust soon. If he's just hireling he'll get kicked out soon.
Grand master nemesis dreadknights and a few other GK units are actually viable, but most of GK issues are power armour issues, paying too many points for stats that don't mean what they used too.
GK then just pay more points for situational things. Pure GK is dead, as an add in they are still seing tournament play but shield captain on dawn eagle supreme comand detachment is about as predictable as the sunrise for an guard ally.
No.. they are not cheesy or op or anything like that, they DO take a different mindset when facing them, b.c you know its a different army... who would have thought right? A new army needs different tactics to fight.
you would think a half decent store manager would say "yeah they really look cool and allow you to play a different style, you should definitely buy some from me and while you are looking at those have you also considered x,y and z units/books/data cards I have available"
pm713 wrote: You'd be surprised at just how bad a store manager can be.
sadly I'm not... half the time I go into a GW or local store I find myself saying "I went into the wrong business I could manage this place 10x better than any local store". Its why I don't doubt his story at all I've seen it happen so many time but it still baffles me when it happens.
I love my grey Knights but stopped playing them because I can’t justify 700 points of subpar units in my list because of the beta ally rules.
I used to just do maybe 3 strike squads and 2-3 inquisitors, but now I have to throw in 2 dreadknight grand masters because their other characters are trash. I just leave my guys on the shelf now tbh.
pm713 wrote: You'd be surprised at just how bad a store manager can be.
sadly I'm not... half the time I go into a GW or local store I find myself saying "I went into the wrong business I could manage this place 10x better than any local store". Its why I don't doubt his story at all I've seen it happen so many time but it still baffles me when it happens.
Nah, I'm sure you went into the right business. Even run well, a game store isn't making anyone rich.
1. Your store manager is a total douchebag. I would not stand for being treated this way. Hopefully there is another shop.
2. Grey Knights are abject garbage. As a competitive Tyranids player I have faced every flavor of marines. I have also run Grey Knights in competitive events. I can with authority say that they are beyond garbage, both based on aggregate tournament data, and very specific game experience. I can write a dissertation on why Grey Knights are bad.
3. Grey Knights are not an army that will get better in 8th edition. They are fundamentally flawed from the ground up. To make this faction competitive would either require the most absurd price cut imaginable or a complete redesign, including brand new psychic powers, new HQs, troops, heavies, etc.
4. Custodes are really stupid. Custode Bike Captains are the new cheese and are in every competitive imperium list. They're ridiculously underpriced for what they do and how durable they are. It is actually really dumb they should be so durable. It's like if you could bring multiple copies of Celestine, essentially, in every list. In fact they're better than her, flat out. They ARE cheese.
So yeah. You are:
(a) Correct in your realization that GK are terrible.
(b) Correct in that Custodes would be a great supplement for your gunline armies.
I don't know if they are complete garbage. I found psilencers to be stupidly deadly. I mean, its a weapon with a high RoF where every wound causes D3 damage. And it can be spammed. That is scat laser levels of stupid.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't know if they are complete garbage. I found psilencers to be stupidly deadly. I mean, its a weapon with a high RoF where every wound causes D3 damage. And it can be spammed. That is scat laser levels of stupid.
When they hit on 2s, wound most infantry on 2s, have 36” range and can be taken on every troop model for 27 pts then you’ll be entitled to make that absurd and shockingly ignorant claim.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To the OP: GK are the worst standalone army in the game, and are the worst they have been in 8th edition.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't know if they are complete garbage. I found psilencers to be stupidly deadly. I mean, its a weapon with a high RoF where every wound causes D3 damage. And it can be spammed. That is scat laser levels of stupid.
When they hit on 2s, wound most infantry on 2s, have 36” range and can be taken on every troop model for 27 pts then you’ll be entitled to make that absurd and shockingly ignorant claim.
A basic psilencer has 6 shots, each shot dealing D3 damage and can be buffed with psy rounds. Pretty sure purgation squads can load up on them, resulting in a lot of multidamage shots. How is that not good? The grey knights probably have more D3 damage shots available than any other army. In melee their infantry have D3 damage attacks too.
Scat lasers were hated because they could strip hull points with their high rate of fire, decent strength, were just as effective against infantry, and could be spammed. Psilencers have lower strength, but they have a higher rate of fire, each shot deals multiple damage, are effective against infantry, and they could be spammed. The lack of AP could be off set with psy bolts with also increases increases strength by 1. How is that not comparable?
I quite like psilencers too, but they don't bandaid a broken army. GK should only be taken in moderation, and never on an empty stomach: have some soup with it.
grouchoben wrote: I quite like psilencers too, but they don't bandaid a broken army. GK should only be taken in moderation, and never on an empty stomach: have some soup with it.
Yeah, the fact that they only appear to have 1 good ranged weapon option that's taken to the exclusion of anything else isn't a good indicator of the army's health. It also appears to be the sort of army where if you don't get first turn to get that alpha strike in you're screwed. Which again, isn't healthy.
Saying the army is complete garbage isn't accurate though, as that would imply there are no good things about the army. And there are; everyone can smite and D3 damage sources are plentiful.
Marmatag wrote: Is everyone taking crazy pills? What is the ideal use case for psilencers, in your mind?
Give them to purgation squads, hide them behind terrain and spam astral sight. A 5 man squad can unload 24 shots in a single turn with no fear of counter fire. Which is pretty good. And by good I mean cheesy as hell. Especially if you opponent has no psi defense.
Marmatag wrote: Is everyone taking crazy pills? What is the ideal use case for psilencers, in your mind?
Give them to purgation squads, hide them behind terrain and spam astral sight.
A 5 man squad can unload 24 shots in a single turn with no fear of counter fire. Which is pretty good. And by good I mean cheesy as hell.
Especially if you opponent has no psi defense.
Astral Aim doesn't make these guys good. It just gives them the ability to shoot something with their garbage guns.
24 shots for 113 points at strength 4, AP0, at 24" is not impressive. It is not.
There is no such thing as "psi defense" in this game.
Give me an ideal use case for them. What is the best unit to target with psilencers?
If you think this is cheesy, i cannot wait for you to encounter literally any other army in 40k. Your grey knights vs grey knights games must be riveting. One Custode bike captain will slaughter these fools effortlessly.
Grey Knights are possibly worse now than they were during the early half of 5th edition, back when they were far and away the worst army of that era (but their fluff was way cooler, so I lived with it). They're in a really terrible place right now.
Marmatag wrote: Is everyone taking crazy pills? What is the ideal use case for psilencers, in your mind?
Give them to purgation squads, hide them behind terrain and spam astral sight. A 5 man squad can unload 24 shots in a single turn with no fear of counter fire. Which is pretty good. And by good I mean cheesy as hell. Especially if you opponent has no psi defense.
Astral Aim doesn't make these guys good. It just gives them the ability to shoot something with their garbage guns.
24 shots for 113 points at strength 4, AP0, at 24" is not impressive. It is not.
There is no such thing as "psi defense" in this game.
Give me an ideal use case for them. What is the best unit to target with psilencers?
If you think this is cheesy, i cannot wait for you to encounter literally any other army in 40k. Your grey knights vs grey knights games must be riveting. One Custode bike captain will slaughter these fools effortlessly.
You left out the D3 damage. You know what hates being shot by a deluge of D3 damage shots? Destroyers. Necron vehicles. Scarabs. Most infantry. You know, the things I field. How is 24 shots at 24" for 113 points not good? In order to get 24 shots from a single unit I have to have either 12 warriors in 12" range for 144 points, or 10 tesla immortals at 24" for 170 points and hope for 6s. And I still can't shoot through walls, and I only deal 1 point of damage per wound. I do not play Grey Knights. I play against Grey Knights. And yes, I know about other army's cheese. My necrons are quite capable of some bs too
From what I observed, Purgation squads with psilencer spam is deadly. Everything else in the army...eh, not really? I mean, if given a chance they can deal a lot of damage, but its easy to not give them a chance. Even purgations are only really usable because of Astral Aim, which allows them to avoid retaliation. So basically if you want to effectively play GK you have to hide in a box and shoot things with a wall hack. Which is...lame. Its basically a curb stomp - either GK wins super hard, or they lose super hard, especially if they lose the psilencer carriers. Which is not good design.
No psy defense in the game? Then what does Deny the Witch do? You know, an ability that defends you from psychic powers
Grey Knights are not great, and can really only shine in friendly type matches.
As far as the manager goes, most guys who run game stores aren’t very astute at the finer points of retail and/or customer service. There are of course many hundreds of exceptions all across the world, but I have seen dozens of game stores go out of business over the years and I have been to a total of two that have thrived and remained operational for 10+ years. That dude sounds like he’ll be in the former category within a year or two.
No GW store manager would ever give you that shpiel. The store manager you're referring to must be a local hobby store, yeah? He's going to happily color his opinion and push you in a direction he feels is right. And here's the bottom line:
I bet for him, custodes sell just fine. But Grey Knights? Those models are sitting in his inventory, not moving. He'll try to push you towards Grey Knights so that he can get them out of his inventory so he can make room for other product that will sell.
grouchoben wrote: I quite like psilencers too, but they don't bandaid a broken army. GK should only be taken in moderation, and never on an empty stomach: have some soup with it.
Yeah, the fact that they only appear to have 1 good ranged weapon option that's taken to the exclusion of anything else isn't a good indicator of the army's health.
It also appears to be the sort of army where if you don't get first turn to get that alpha strike in you're screwed. Which again, isn't healthy.
Saying the army is complete garbage isn't accurate though, as that would imply there are no good things about the army. And there are; everyone can smite and D3 damage sources are plentiful.
grouchoben wrote: I quite like psilencers too, but they don't bandaid a broken army. GK should only be taken in moderation, and never on an empty stomach: have some soup with it.
Yeah, the fact that they only appear to have 1 good ranged weapon option that's taken to the exclusion of anything else isn't a good indicator of the army's health. It also appears to be the sort of army where if you don't get first turn to get that alpha strike in you're screwed. Which again, isn't healthy.
Saying the army is complete garbage isn't accurate though, as that would imply there are no good things about the army. And there are; everyone can smite and D3 damage sources are plentiful.
Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha.
Oh you were serious...
Explain how common access to mortal wounds and D3 damage is a bad thing, compared to every other army. That's not to say its enough to call the army healthy, but that is a strong point they have going for them.
Of course, the flipside is that there's no reason to take any weapon but a psilencer. I mean, why take a psycannon? It has fewer shots, only deals 1 damage and costs 3x as much. Statistically speaking you can wreck more havoc with psilencers through sheer weight of fire. And that's not healthy. That's just poor design.
I don't think they're terrible, but I have to defer to players with more experience with them.
One problem I have with them is the built-in cost of the nemesis weapons and then trading the weapon out for a special without reducing the base model cost. It just makes the special weapons unattractive. And having the nemesis weapons steers you away from having proper shooting units, because you're paying for the damn things all the time.
Psybolts are killer. Strike Squads are a great unit.
210 points for 40 S5 AP1 shots from a Strike Squad who can get 2A each with pairs of Nemesis Falchions. The 2 CP is steep, but probably warranted. So that basically forces them to use guard to be able to use if often enough. Some people don't like that and that's ok.
152 for 5 Purgators w/ 4 Psycannons is 16 S8 AP2 (but only D1... and 2 CP).
Other things I like...
Teleporting dreadnoughts
Fight again on death dreadknight
Double jump Interceptors
You keep saying "access to D3 damage" like it means something. It's a strength 4 gun with 0 AP, 24" range, and is heavy. That flat out sucks my good sir.
And per point Grey Knights do not have efficient access to mortal wounds.
Marmatag wrote: You keep saying "access to D3 damage" like it means something. It's a strength 4 gun with 0 AP, 24" range, and is heavy. That flat out sucks my good sir.
And per point Grey Knights do not have efficient access to mortal wounds.
Yeah, it does mean something. Its dirt cheap and has 6 shots. Volume of fire is the operative term here, which is magnified by the fact that each unsaved wound deals D3 damage. A gauss cannon is 20 points. It has 3 shots S6 AP-3 D3 damage. For the price of that you can have 30 S4 AP0 D3 damage shots, which can be buffed to S5 AP-1 through a stratagem. Both have the same range. You can potentially kill more with the psilencers, as even with the weaker shots there are just so many dice being rolled that it doesn't matter. That's like terminator killing 101, and its even easier with the multi-damage. And you can still shoot through walls.
Can you name a high RoF weapon that's cheap and deals multiple damage per wound? Because I can't. And then you have the fact that nearly every melee weapon deals multiple damage. Which again is strong. No other army has that. They just have to make it into combat. And then survive afterwards.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't think they're terrible, but I have to defer to players with more experience with them.
One problem I have with them is the built-in cost of the nemesis weapons and then trading the weapon out for a special without reducing the base model cost. It just makes the special weapons unattractive. And having the nemesis weapons steers you away from having proper shooting units, because you're paying for the damn things all the time.
Psybolts are killer. Strike Squads are a great unit.
210 points for 40 S5 AP1 shots from a Strike Squad who can get 2A each with pairs of Nemesis Falchions. The 2 CP is steep, but probably warranted. So that basically forces them to use guard to be able to use if often enough. Some people don't like that and that's ok. 152 for 5 Purgators w/ 4 Psycannons is 16 S8 AP2 (but only D1... and 2 CP).
Other things I like...
Teleporting dreadnoughts Fight again on death dreadknight Double jump Interceptors
But it's all very CP intensive. You run out fast.
Psycannons aren't as good as psilencers though. 4 psilencers tend to out perform 4 psycannons for cheaper. Which isn't good design. Strike squads are deadly, but I found that if they don't make the charge they die quickly, especially to gauss weapons. They do have a lot of shots which is pretty nice, especially at short range. Until they start taking losses, that is.
The purgators are only really scary with astral aim as they could avoid return fire that way. Without that power it would be easy to shoot them out of cover, as due to their high cost they tend to be in small numbers. A base model is like 20 points. Giving one a psycannon kicks it up to around 35 points. Which is pretty high for a single wound model. You don't even get much fire power out of it. I swear GW screwed up and swapped the damage stat for the psycannon and psilencer.
Quickjager wrote: Most Tau ion weapons? That are bad literally because they have a trash platform something a GK player understands.
Disintegration cannons.
Autocannons.
Anything with cannon in the name actually. Like ectoplasma cannons etc.
Which tau ion weapons? Because none of them are 4 points with 6 shots, D3 damage and can be spammed. Autocannons are still 2 shots. Is 2 more than 6? Are they 4 points? Disintegrator cannons are 3 shots and are certainly not 4 points each and still can't be spammed as much.
None of these have the RoF + multi damage that psilencers have. Try again.
But please tell me how amazing my 30 point model is at killing two 5 point models a turn at range is... that D3 really helps there right? Or maybe there the Str 4 will help me punch out that armored vehicle right? The AP0 will surely help me against that custodes.
Its like you are ignoring the fact GW didn't in fact mess up anything. They literally just can't math out the concept of statistics and apply appropriate costs based off that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow got 404'ed there after typing out a explanation.... and it is all gone.
So I'll give the quick answer. If Space Marines were able to take psilencers, they would not. Why is that? Because it is not a good weapon in the army of elites. It cannot reach the level of saturation where it becomes the monster you appear to believe it is.
Quick example.
I want to hit a specific unit of my enemy I have two options of getting my squad there RIGHT away.
I take Pallies who then take 2 psilencers, I will probably not achieve the saturation needed but it DOES make my pallies better but Pallies are overcosted in the first place so I am reducing my overall psilencer amount in the army.
I spend a CP on deepstriking a purgation squad. I have 4 psilencers in this case, I probably hit the saturation level needed to kill my target. But the squad is dead next turn. Worse I used a deepstrike slot which means I am footslogging something that would probably have been more effective over a longer period of the game up the board.
Then there is another option that fails to address the RIGHT AWAY part.
I take a Stormraven and put the purgation squad in. But this is rather hilariously expensive.
Psilencers would be good in any non elite army but they aren't. So they suck.
Quickjager wrote: But please tell me how amazing my 30 point model is at killing two 5 point models a turn at range is... that D3 really helps there right? Or maybe there the Str 4 will help me punch out that armored vehicle right? The AP0 will surely help me against that custodes.
Its like you are ignoring the fact GW didn't in fact mess up anything. They literally just can't math out the concept of statistics and apply appropriate costs based off that.
Oh no, they did mess up. I'm pretty sure I wrote that earlier. The design is a mess. The psilencer specifically is good. The rest...not so much. Everything is too expensive, too fragile and depends on getting in an alpha strike to cripple the enemy before they get whooped. Which is neutered by the DS beta rule. This isn't healthy. GK do need an overhaul, and I don't think simple points cuts would do it, as you'd have to faction all of the psy powers and multi damage weapons they have. Multiple damage is quite useful. Try shooting a small squad of necron destroyers with 24 psilencer shots. You might be surprised at how many 5+s you roll for damage. Even against vehicles it can be surprisingly effective, as each unsaved could take 3 wounds. Not bad for a 4 point weapon. Pity about the 20 or so point platform though. To compare, a destroyer is 30 points, faster, has more wounds and gets rerolls. The gun costs more though, which does kick it up a bit.
Also, if scat lasers were the bane of 7th ed and mass lasgun fire is viable for killing terminators, then logically a weapon like the psilencer would be great
What if you deepstruck the purgation squad behind a solid block of terrain and used astral sight to shoot whilst staying hidden from return fire? Wouldn't that increase their longevity? Granted, that is situational and depends on board setup, but is a possible tactic.
But please tell me how amazing my 30 point model is at killing two 5 point models a turn at range is... that D3 really helps there right? Or maybe there the Str 4 will help me punch out that armored vehicle right? The AP0 will surely help me against that custodes.
Its like you are ignoring the fact GW didn't in fact mess up anything. They literally just can't math out the concept of statistics and apply appropriate costs based off that.
They're more than capable, but I think they have a vision for the army that doesn't quite meet expectations.
Everyone having a force sword is cool, but you're literally adding 8 points to every single model. Which, coincidentally is why Strike Squads are awesome - they're basically an 11 point marine and get a free dual-wield with force weapons and can take a storm bolter.
If I played GK my list would literally be this. Astral Aim on the DK with H Psycannons. Draigo up front with teleporting DKs w/ psycannons and 10 man SS.
SS get Psybolts. One DK gets Onslaught.
That comes to 40 S5 AP1, 24 S5 AP1 D3, and 24 S4 AP0 D3 with full rerolls.
Explain how common access to mortal wounds and D3 damage is a bad thing, compared to every other army.
d3 damage. Whee I'm impressed. And raise bar by my spammable plasma gun that has superior D2.
And before you point it out yes only 1-2 shots. Also S8. On cheaper platform so you can field tons and are more survivable than your psilencer. And since damage isn't only sthick it has more versatile. I know which one I'll take if I want to field for a shooting match.
I don't understand why people complain about the cost of nemesis weapons and the fact they lose out when trading for special weapons. Have you thought that the special weapons themselves are reduced in cost because of the need to replace a nemesis weapon? A psilencer is 4pts....for 6 shots at S4 D3 damage. a HVy Bolter is 10pts for only 3 shots S5 Ap-1 1 damage. Pretty sure you are paying less for that hvy weapon than a regular marine would have to pay. Or compare the psycannon instead....+2 S and +1 ROF for just 4 pts more than that Hvy Bolter.
Forget that, let's go for the direct comparison...Hvy flamer vs Incinerator. Hvy flamer is 17pts, incinerator is 14pts. The incinerator has +1S over the Hvy flamer and is 3 pts cheaper. You are not losing out on points by dropping the nemesis weapons because the special weapons are priced with this in mind.
Explain how common access to mortal wounds and D3 damage is a bad thing, compared to every other army.
d3 damage. Whee I'm impressed. And raise bar by my spammable plasma gun that has superior D2.
And before you point it out yes only 1-2 shots. Also S8. On cheaper platform so you can field tons and are more survivable than your psilencer. And since damage isn't only sthick it has more versatile. I know which one I'll take if I want to field for a shooting match.
They also have a chance of dying unless you are baby sitting the plasma with a character. And if the psilencer was on a cheaper platform, which would you take? That's the problem the GK's balance; if you start reducing base costs that would just incentivize people to take more psilencers because they are more efficient than anything else in the book. That's not a good thing. The damage stat should really be swapped with psycannon's, because if you paying more than 10 points for a heavy weapon you'd expect more than 1 damage. For the same total points cost a psilencer outperforms a psycannon.
bullyboy wrote: I don't understand why people complain about the cost of nemesis weapons and the fact they lose out when trading for special weapons. Have you thought that the special weapons themselves are reduced in cost because of the need to replace a nemesis weapon? A psilencer is 4pts....for 6 shots at S4 D3 damage. a HVy Bolter is 10pts for only 3 shots S5 Ap-1 1 damage. Pretty sure you are paying less for that hvy weapon than a regular marine would have to pay. Or compare the psycannon instead....+2 S and +1 ROF for just 4 pts more than that Hvy Bolter.
Forget that, let's go for the direct comparison...Hvy flamer vs Incinerator. Hvy flamer is 17pts, incinerator is 14pts. The incinerator has +1S over the Hvy flamer and is 3 pts cheaper. You are not losing out on points by dropping the nemesis weapons because the special weapons are priced with this in mind.
Yea, maybe, but like I said I don't have tons of experience playing the army. I see builds that look really decent. Overall I think the need for CP to make them function well on top of the high cost makes it hard. The characters, for example, are crazy points. Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment. Does it mean they need a ton of buffs? No, but a few things would be helpful.
Like some other units that are questionably priced. Purifiers are 26 points and they're basically a strike squad, but they 7 points per model for a 3" D6 smite.
Daedalus81 wrote: Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment.
That's the case for any Imperial faction right now. You can't be competitive unless you build in some guard. Your list will always be worse for their absence.
Yea, maybe, but like I said I don't have tons of experience playing the army. I see builds that look really decent. Overall I think the need for CP to make them function well on top of the high cost makes it hard. The characters, for example, are crazy points. Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment. Does it mean they need a ton of buffs? No, but a few things would be helpful.
Well all Imperium armies are expected to ally and you are gimping yourself if you don't. Sure you can not soup up but then you are losing out on power.
Imperium is one faction and you need to look it as what used to be one codex. Various tools to use as combined. That's GW style 2018.
So, maybe I should cut in here with the reason as to WHY I am dropping my GKs for Custodes. Because they are statistically better in EVERY regard, for roughly the same amount of points. The GKs have lore, and that's it. Otherwise they have become an extremely situational force, that still sucks at it's job compared to less costly alternatives.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, maybe I should cut in here with the reason as to WHY I am dropping my GKs for Custodes. Because they are statistically better in EVERY regard, for roughly the same amount of points. The GKs have lore, and that's it. Otherwise they have become an extremely situational force, that still sucks at it's job compared to less costly alternatives.
What is the analogue to the dreadknight grandmaster?
The DKGM seems to punch above it's point cost.
282 points for...
3 Vertus Praetors w/ Lance, HB, and misericordia (the common loadout)
That comes to 12 T6 wounds with 2+/5++
WS/BS2
Melee: 12A @ S6 AP3 D3 and 3A @ S5 AP2 D1
Shooting: 18 to 36 S4 AP0 shots
A DK Grandmaster, 2x Fist, 2x GP is 265 for...
12 T6 wounds with a 2+/4++ (better)
WS/BS2 (exactly the same)
Melee: 6 S12 AP3 D3
Shooting: 24 S4 AP0 D3
The DKGM does 6.5 wounds to Vertus in melee.
The Vertus would otherwise do 4.5 / 8 (on the charge).
If the DKGM has the Nemesis trait it will do 9.7 wounds.
If it has a 3++ up then t will receive only 4 / 5.3 wounds.
With boosted shooting the DKGM can kill a Vertus and wound another.
The Vertus even at 36 shots could only hope for a couple wounds at best.
So, if Custodes are the most amazing thing ever and when people take them it's almost always 9 Vertus for ~1,000 points then why, when the DKGM is quite formidable compared to them are GK not considered in the same vein?
There are many elements in the GK army that can be quite strong. And, it seems that Custodes almost always pair with IG. So, if allying with IG was a problem for GK why is it not a problem for Custodes?
The shield captains would have 2+/4++ and a 6+ against mortal wounds from psychic powers. They are also charictors so can be difficult to target with a suitable weapon to burn through 7 T6 wounds. And that mobility really patches a massive weakness of IG mobility.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, maybe I should cut in here with the reason as to WHY I am dropping my GKs for Custodes. Because they are statistically better in EVERY regard, for roughly the same amount of points. The GKs have lore, and that's it. Otherwise they have become an extremely situational force, that still sucks at it's job compared to less costly alternatives.
What is the analogue to the dreadknight grandmaster?
The DKGM seems to punch above it's point cost.
282 points for...
3 Vertus Praetors w/ Lance, HB, and misericordia (the common loadout)
That comes to 12 T6 wounds with 2+/5++
WS/BS2
Melee: 12A @ S6 AP3 D3 and 3A @ S5 AP2 D1
Shooting: 18 to 36 S4 AP0 shots
A DK Grandmaster, 2x Fist, 2x GP is 265 for...
12 T6 wounds with a 2+/4++ (better)
WS/BS2 (exactly the same)
Melee: 6 S12 AP3 D3
Shooting: 24 S4 AP0 D3
The DKGM does 6.5 wounds to Vertus in melee.
The Vertus would otherwise do 4.5 / 8 (on the charge).
If the DKGM has the Nemesis trait it will do 9.7 wounds.
If it has a 3++ up then t will receive only 4 / 5.3 wounds.
With boosted shooting the DKGM can kill a Vertus and wound another.
The Vertus even at 36 shots could only hope for a couple wounds at best.
So, if Custodes are the most amazing thing ever and when people take them it's almost always 9 Vertus for ~1,000 points then why, when the DKGM is quite formidable compared to them are GK not considered in the same vein?
There are many elements in the GK army that can be quite strong. And, it seems that Custodes almost always pair with IG. So, if allying with IG was a problem for GK why is it not a problem for Custodes?
Talk about a vacuum analysis. First off, Custodes Jetbikes have a 4++ and are Objective Secured. You have them as a 5++.
A Dreadknight Grandmaster can't Deep Strike outside his deployment zone on T1 and only walks 8". Jetbikes moves 14" and can basically be almost anywhere you need them by end of movement T2.
3 Hurricane Bolters is 36 shots in rapid fire range which is waaaaaay more valuable than the 12/6 of a Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon (which, by the way, are Heavy weapons so the GMDK gets -1 to Hit if he moves before firing them). You can horde bust OR chip tanks.
If you wanted a straight up fight between the two, the Jetbikes almost certainly get the charge on the Dreadknight thanks to their extra 6" movement.
The Custodes also have access to a -1 to Hit Aura which the GK do not have in their entire army.
A GKDM who deep strikes in and shoots at Jetbikes with both guns averages 5 wounds (and that's if they're NOT in range of a vexilla). The two bikes remaining shooting and charging average a bit over 8. The GMDK, if he's lucky enough to not degrade, only kills one Jetbike in return and leaves one alive.
But this is the wrong comparison anyway. The proper response is a Jetbike Captain.
So tricking out a GMDK with EVERYTHING gets you a 3++ plus the above stats with +1S and -1AP guns. Tricking out one Jetbike Captain gets you a 2+/3++, Victor of the Blood Games and -1 to Hit from Radiant Mantle. This only costs 164 points.
Now make them fight.
GMDK drops in and shoots. He gets -2 to Hit because he moved and Radiant Mantle. The Psilencer averages 1.5 wounds with a 45% chance of doing ZERO wounds (and I didn't even factor in Victor of the Blood Games). The Psycannon averages .67 with a 67% chance of doing ZERO wounds.
The Captain shoots 12 Hurricane Bolter shots. Averages .65 wounds with a 51% chance of doing zero.
Captain charges. 2.55 combining Lance and Misericordia. GKDM swings back with a -1 to Hit thanks to Radiant Mantle. The GMDK averages 3 wounds with a 39% chance of doing ZERO (even higher chance when you factor in Victor of the Blood Games). Assuming this started on T2 (earliest time GMDK can deep strike outside deployment zone), the GMDK won't eliminate the Captain on average until T4 with decent odds they're still swinging in T5. At any time, the Captain can just decide to leave thanks to Fly and go shoot something while moving 14" away over terrain. And he costs more than 120 points less than the GMDK.
If you actually have a GK army Vs. a Custodes army, everything that's not a Storm Bolter is going to be facing a -2 to Hit because of the fact they're Heavy and the Vexilla Magnifica. The Custodes can just kite and shoot them into oblivion with mass bolter fire for 2-3 rounds then charge the center for board control.
Ice_can wrote: The shield captains would have 2+/4++ and a 6+ against mortal wounds from psychic powers. They are also charictors so can be difficult to target with a suitable weapon to burn through 7 T6 wounds. And that mobility really patches a massive weakness of IG mobility.
Yea the shield captains certainly abuse character targeting and they're great against people who brought no melee.
You're paying for 32 points per attack instead of ~23 with the Vertus. He's still only S6. The DKGM w/ Nemesis could crush him in a round or at least put him to 2 wounds. The captain can throw down 3.8 wounds on a charge, but 2.5 otherwise.
The captain gets the fight twice on death for 2 CP yet GK has the same thing for 1 CP. Stooping dive is cool, I guess.
The GKDM can smite though, and it's a vehicle so it has a 5+++ vs mortal wounds when it needs it.
I'm not really seeing where Custodes are amazingly better.
The problem with Custodes is they are the fan wishlist GK players submitted to GW back in 7th, that GW then gave to Custodes instead of GK. There’s going to be salt over that burn for ages to come.
Daedalus81 wrote: Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment.
That's the case for any Imperial faction right now. You can't be competitive unless you build in some guard. Your list will always be worse for their absence.
This is true. But you may as well add in Custodes Bike Captains too. They're too good and cheap not to include them.
Talk about a vacuum analysis. First off, Custodes Jetbikes have a 4++ and are Objective Secured. You have them as a 5++.
How exactly are bikes getting 4++?
A Dreadknight Grandmaster can't Deep Strike outside his deployment zone on T1 and only walks 8". Jetbikes moves 14" and can basically be almost anywhere you need them by end of movement T2.
Not really seeing the deepstrike issue here. I already mentioned the movement.
3 Hurricane Bolters is 36 shots in rapid fire range which is waaaaaay more valuable than the 12/6 of a Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon (which, by the way, are Heavy weapons so the GMDK gets -1 to Hit if he moves before firing them). You can horde bust OR chip tanks.
Already mentioned the move penalty. It's somewhat moot on a 3+ to hit with reroll 1s and if you come into range of him, well...
HBs need to be within 12" for 36 shots - 18 otherwise. GP is 24" for 24. So we're very clearly sitting at the average. GP has D3. GP can become S5 AP1. There is way more potential for the GP. The GP will be MUCH better at chipping tanks.
If you wanted a straight up fight between the two, the Jetbikes almost certainly get the charge on the Dreadknight thanks to their extra 6" movement.
Last I knew they can't run and charge. What did I miss? I searched the whole codex by keyword and it didn't come up.
The Custodes also have access to a -1 to Hit Aura which the GK do not have in their entire army.
Yep - super handy. You'll also outrun that with bikes.
A GKDM who deep strikes in and shoots at Jetbikes with both guns averages 5 wounds (and that's if they're NOT in range of a vexilla). The two bikes remaining shooting and charging average a bit over 8. The GMDK, if he's lucky enough to not degrade, only kills one Jetbike in return and leaves one alive.
I'm not sure why I would ever deepstrike on bikes. I mentioned deepstrike, because it's a useful tool. Not a panacea.
But this is the wrong comparison anyway. The proper response is a Jetbike Captain.
Sure, no doubt. People mostly do either bikes or captains on bikes.
So tricking out a GMDK with EVERYTHING gets you a 3++ plus the above stats with +1S and -1AP guns. Tricking out one Jetbike Captain gets you a 2+/3++, Victor of the Blood Games and -1 to Hit from Radiant Mantle. This only costs 164 points.
So, totally would never DS on a captain. That's pants on head silly.
What i'd actually do is let him come to me. You need to be within 24" to make the HBs work anyway.
So, you shoot me. 18 * .972 * .333 * .167 = 0.97
My turn, I shoot you with Onslaught on. 24 * .777 * .333 * .333 * 2 = 4 wounds (with onslaught)
I mean...I probably CAN'T shoot you, but you get the idea. Overwatch could scratch a wound, maybe. Like you said Captain charges and gets ~2.5. DKGM gets 3.9 not 3 (You get radiant I get Nemesis). 6 * .777 * .833 * .333 * 3 = 3.87.
It's my turn next. You'll die.
If you actually have a GK army Vs. a Custodes army, everything that's not a Storm Bolter is going to be facing a -2 to Hit because of the fact they're Heavy and the Vexilla Magnifica. The Custodes can just kite and shoot them into oblivion with mass bolter fire for 2-3 rounds then charge the center for board control.
I play both armies heavily. It's no contest.
I don't play them, but i'm not seeing it. Custodes have advantages. GK have advantages. Custodes are easier to afford, paint, and use - i'll give you that.
Also it CAN'T be ignored that the DKGM can be targeting by anti-tank and the captain can not. Solid disadvantage there, which files under 'easy to use'.
jeffersonian000 wrote: The problem with Custodes is they are the fan wishlist GK players submitted to GW back in 7th, that GW then gave to Custodes instead of GK. There’s going to be salt over that burn for ages to come.
SJ
Pretty much this.
4++ built in? They got it.
Extra wound? They got it.
Better melee? They got it.
Jetbikes? They got it.
In 5th there was an ability called Shrouding that made it -1 to hit the unit that cast the psychic power. In 6th+ it gave a cover save. I said making it -1 to hit and accessible for the unit that cast it and everything in a bubble around it would make it a good return to form. Custodes got it as a banner.
Putting the question of GK aside completely, what store manager (at a GW or FLGS) would want to talk you out of spending more money at their shop? If they don't sell more models, they don't make money. If they don't make money, they will eventually end up closing their doors.
A Dreadknight Grandmaster can't Deep Strike outside his deployment zone on T1 and only walks 8". Jetbikes moves 14" and can basically be almost anywhere you need them by end of movement T2.
Not really seeing the deepstrike issue here. I already mentioned the movement.
It's huge. If you're taking a GMDK as a mobile gun platform you already lost or it's gonna get alpha striked. You put it in reserve to protect it and guarantee damage. The bikes don't have this handicap because they're faster, durable, have Fly and don't get penalties for moving.
3 Hurricane Bolters is 36 shots in rapid fire range which is waaaaaay more valuable than the 12/6 of a Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon (which, by the way, are Heavy weapons so the GMDK gets -1 to Hit if he moves before firing them). You can horde bust OR chip tanks.
Already mentioned the move penalty. It's somewhat moot on a 3+ to hit with reroll 1s and if you come into range of him, well...
It's not moot in the slightest. It lowers the wounds.
HBs need to be within 12" for 36 shots - 18 otherwise. GP is 24" for 24. So we're very clearly sitting at the average. GP has D3. GP can become S5 AP1. There is way more potential for the GP. The GP will be MUCH better at chipping tanks.
Even if a GMDK deep strikes at 24" away from the hurricane bolter, the 14" move gets them within 10" immediately in response. They will ALWAYS be in rapid fire range.
S4 and S5 are both wounding most tanks (T7) on 5's. The extra shots equal more damage than the -1 AP and -1 to Hit the GMDK will incur trying to keep tanks in range with 8" move and 24" guns (32" maximum threat range rather than 36", only 24" without -1 to Hit penalty).
If you wanted a straight up fight between the two, the Jetbikes almost certainly get the charge on the Dreadknight thanks to their extra 6" movement.
Last I knew they can't run and charge. What did I miss? I searched the whole codex by keyword and it didn't come up.
14-8=6. :p
The Custodes also have access to a -1 to Hit Aura which the GK do not have in their entire army.
Yep - super handy. You'll also outrun that with bikes.
Not really. Vexilla starts on the board and moves+advances 9.5" average on T1, with a 6" range thats 15.5" out from deployment zone edge of cover. T2 he can not move to make it 12" range with a strat OR you can deep strike in a second Vexilla with Terminator armor. All you have to do is snake a single Jetbike into range from each squad. You've got at least 2 turns of protection. 3 if your opponent ALSO has to advance up to fight (like GK).
A GKDM who deep strikes in and shoots at Jetbikes with both guns averages 5 wounds (and that's if they're NOT in range of a vexilla). The two bikes remaining shooting and charging average a bit over 8. The GMDK, if he's lucky enough to not degrade, only kills one Jetbike in return and leaves one alive.
I'm not sure why I would ever deepstrike on bikes. I mentioned deepstrike, because it's a useful tool. Not a panacea.
If you don't, then the Bikes can potentially nail you before your get to do damage (or a Caladius or one of Custodes Forgeworld Dreads).
But this is the wrong comparison anyway. The proper response is a Jetbike Captain.
Sure, no doubt. People mostly do either bikes or captains on bikes.
I meant as a direct comparison to the GMDK.
So tricking out a GMDK with EVERYTHING gets you a 3++ plus the above stats with +1S and -1AP guns. Tricking out one Jetbike Captain gets you a 2+/3++, Victor of the Blood Games and -1 to Hit from Radiant Mantle. This only costs 164 points.
So, totally would never DS on a captain. That's pants on head silly.
You don't. The Captain will find you almost no matter where you land against a Custodes force.
What i'd actually do is let him come to me. You need to be within 24" to make the HBs work anyway.
Not really? The Custodes player can use fly to block LoS in terrain and camp objectives with ObSec on bikes. They have no need to come to you. The GK player MUST come to the Custodes player, by contrast. The Custodes will reach center board faster and in bigger numbers thanks to higher move and no T1 deep strike restrictions.
So, you shoot me. 18 * .972 * .333 * .167 = 0.97
My turn, I shoot you with Onslaught on. 24 * .777 * .333 * .333 * 2 = 4 wounds (with onslaught)
I mean...I probably CAN'T shoot you, but you get the idea. Overwatch could scratch a wound, maybe. Like you said Captain charges and gets ~2.5. DKGM gets 3.9 not 3 (You get radiant I get Nemesis). 6 * .777 * .833 * .333 * 3 = 3.87.
It's my turn next. You'll die.
Your math is off. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong. Nemesis weapons have no bonus against Custodes. Try using this:
12 Hurricane Bolter shots hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's is .65 average wounds.
Onslaught on Psilencer with -2 penalty is .1.55 (and 45% chance of zero, so almost half the time it'll do nil).
Onslaught Psycannon isn't much better. 1.81 average with 38% chance of zero.
And this is assuming you even get to shoot. If you're not deep striking...you very well might not.
Overwatch isn't even worth mentioning (88% and 77% chance of doing zero damage each).
In melee, the Captain averages 2.55 on the charge and the GMDK averages 3.02 but with a 39% chance of zero. That's before Victor. Basically, you're getting a single unsaved wound through when not degraded, but Victor lets the Captain re-roll that failed invulnerable save with a 2/3 chance of saving it. The end result being that the average is misleading you: in any particular round of combat the GMDK is as likely to do 0 damage as any damage (if not more so).
If you actually have a GK army Vs. a Custodes army, everything that's not a Storm Bolter is going to be facing a -2 to Hit because of the fact they're Heavy and the Vexilla Magnifica. The Custodes can just kite and shoot them into oblivion with mass bolter fire for 2-3 rounds then charge the center for board control.
The whole time they have this slap fight, the Captain is ObSec and can hold any objective the GMDK is trying to contest too.
I play both armies heavily. It's no contest.
I don't play them, but i'm not seeing it. Custodes have advantages. GK have advantages. Custodes are easier to afford, paint, and use - i'll give you that.
Also it CAN'T be ignored that the DKGM can be targeting by anti-tank and the captain can not. Solid disadvantage there, which files under 'easy to use'.
To many game store managers are hobbists first busniess men a distant second. sounds like your manager is this case. rather then selling you product it sounds like he's intreasted in pushing his opinion.
It's huge. If you're taking a GMDK as a mobile gun platform you already lost or it's gonna get alpha striked. You put it in reserve to protect it and guarantee damage. The bikes don't have this handicap because they're faster, durable, have Fly and don't get penalties for moving.
Fly is a good point. I deny the alpha strike problem. It's safer to be out now and based on the London GT there are not a plethora of anti-tank. The ubiquity of Custards proves that.
Even if a GMDK deep strikes at 24" away from the hurricane bolter, the 14" move gets them within 10" immediately in response. They will ALWAYS be in rapid fire range.
S4 and S5 are both wounding most tanks (T7) on 5's. The extra shots equal more damage than the -1 AP and -1 to Hit the GMDK will incur trying to keep tanks in range with 8" move and 24" guns (32" maximum threat range rather than 36", only 24" without -1 to Hit penalty).
Again though i'd never DS vs a fast melee unit. Even with a hit penalty the GP with onslaught WAY outperforms HBs and outperforms it in all other regards vs tanks. HB has an RF advantage vs infantry.
Not really. Vexilla starts on the board and moves+advances 9.5" average on T1, with a 6" range thats 15.5" out from deployment zone edge of cover. T2 he can not move to make it 12" range with a strat OR you can deep strike in a second Vexilla with Terminator armor. All you have to do is snake a single Jetbike into range from each squad. You've got at least 2 turns of protection. 3 if your opponent ALSO has to advance up to fight (like GK).
Ok fair enough, but we're looking at -1 army wide and -2 on a single character. Nothing insurmountable.
Not really? The Custodes player can use fly to block LoS in terrain and camp objectives with ObSec on bikes. They have no need to come to you. The GK player MUST come to the Custodes player, by contrast. The Custodes will reach center board faster and in bigger numbers thanks to higher move and no T1 deep strike restrictions.
There are table factors that are certainly in play. Again, I don't play say I can't comment on them specifically.
Your math is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong. Nemesis weapons have no bonus against Custodes. Try using this:
Our assumptions are just different. If we're working it out as a -2 captain then you've got to figure in the 115ish points for the Praetor. Obviously he buffs other stuff so it's not straight, but you're spending up to meet the DKGM's power.
Why does Nemesis Lord not apply? I see no restrictions.
It's huge. If you're taking a GMDK as a mobile gun platform you already lost or it's gonna get alpha striked. You put it in reserve to protect it and guarantee damage. The bikes don't have this handicap because they're faster, durable, have Fly and don't get penalties for moving.
Fly is a good point. I deny the alpha strike problem. It's safer to be out now and based on the London GT there are not a plethora of anti-tank. The ubiquity of Custards proves that.
Even if a GMDK deep strikes at 24" away from the hurricane bolter, the 14" move gets them within 10" immediately in response. They will ALWAYS be in rapid fire range.
S4 and S5 are both wounding most tanks (T7) on 5's. The extra shots equal more damage than the -1 AP and -1 to Hit the GMDK will incur trying to keep tanks in range with 8" move and 24" guns (32" maximum threat range rather than 36", only 24" without -1 to Hit penalty).
Again though i'd never DS vs a fast melee unit. Even with a hit penalty the GP with onslaught WAY outperforms HBs and outperforms it in all other regards vs tanks. HB has an RF advantage vs infantry.
Not really. Vexilla starts on the board and moves+advances 9.5" average on T1, with a 6" range thats 15.5" out from deployment zone edge of cover. T2 he can not move to make it 12" range with a strat OR you can deep strike in a second Vexilla with Terminator armor. All you have to do is snake a single Jetbike into range from each squad. You've got at least 2 turns of protection. 3 if your opponent ALSO has to advance up to fight (like GK).
Ok fair enough, but we're looking at -1 army wide and -2 on a single character. Nothing insurmountable.
Not really? The Custodes player can use fly to block LoS in terrain and camp objectives with ObSec on bikes. They have no need to come to you. The GK player MUST come to the Custodes player, by contrast. The Custodes will reach center board faster and in bigger numbers thanks to higher move and no T1 deep strike restrictions.
There are table factors that are certainly in play. Again, I don't play say I can't comment on them specifically.
Your math is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong. Nemesis weapons have no bonus against Custodes. Try using this:
Our assumptions are just different. If we're working it out as a -2 captain then you've got to figure in the 115ish points for the Praetor. Obviously he buffs other stuff so it's not straight, but you're spending up to meet the DKGM's power.
Why does Nemesis Lord not apply? I see no restrictions.
Your tank comparison math is way off from the GMDK. After the -1 from moving, the GP is only averaging 3.11 wounds, not 6.2. It's 12 shots, not 24. GMDK's can't take two of the same gun. They have to take different ones for each slot.
I'm not including a Vexilla, that would make it -3. It's -1 for the GMDK moving and -1 for Radiant Mantle. Though now that I think of it, a Captain + a Vexilla is about the same price as a GMDK (270ish to 285).
Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).
I'm not sure what you meant by "Nemsis Lord", but Nemesis is what most their melee weapons are prefixed by. It used to give bonuses against Daemons but now doesn't mean anything besides just being the name (Nemesis Sword, Nemesis Daemonhammer, e.t.c.).
ServiceGames wrote: Putting the question of GK aside completely, what store manager (at a GW or FLGS) would want to talk you out of spending more money at their shop? If they don't sell more models, they don't make money. If they don't make money, they will eventually end up closing their doors.
Ahh - ok. Damn that is a really easy to miss word. Hmm. That stinks a little - not that i'd complain about the heavy psycannon personally. I'll have to think it through a little.
Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).
Right - I'm saying the meta has shifted away from things that threaten the GMDK.
I'm not sure what you meant by "Nemsis Lord", but Nemesis is what most their melee weapons are prefixed by. It used to give bonuses against Daemons but now doesn't mean anything besides just being the name (Nemesis Sword, Nemesis Daemonhammer, e.t.c.).
Sorry, yea, I can see where that got confusing real fast. I was referring to the warlord trait - +1 dmg to melee weapons (other than relics) with double fists.
Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).
So psilencers with psybolt stratagem then? Because that pretty much follows your description.
Yes, it will require CP, but if you can delete or at least cripple a custodes squad with it, wouldn't that be worth it, as they tend to be few in number.
Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).
So psilencers with psybolt stratagem then? Because that pretty much follows your description.
Yes, it will require CP, but if you can delete or at least cripple a custodes squad with it, wouldn't that be worth it, as they tend to be few in number.
Too low strength, at least for Bikes. Not awful if you're peppering Custodian Guard or Allarus, but Bikes are T6 so you want S6+ weapons, preferably S7.
Ahh - ok. Damn that is a really easy to miss word. Hmm. That stinks a little - not that i'd complain about the heavy psycannon personally. I'll have to think it through a little.
Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).
Right - I'm saying the meta has shifted away from things that threaten the GMDK.
I'm not sure what you meant by "Nemsis Lord", but Nemesis is what most their melee weapons are prefixed by. It used to give bonuses against Daemons but now doesn't mean anything besides just being the name (Nemesis Sword, Nemesis Daemonhammer, e.t.c.).
Sorry, yea, I can see where that got confusing real fast. I was referring to the warlord trait - +1 dmg to melee weapons (other than relics) with double fists.
Okay, I read it as the meta shifted away from bringing anti-tank for Custodes. Fair.
Right, the Warlord trait! I just assumed First to the Fray since I was working off a Deep Strike charge chance to minimize terrain interference. I will say though that most GK consider FttF near mandatory while Custodes generally view Radiant Mantle (-1), Superior Creation (5+++) or Impregnable Mind (DtW) to all be acceptable.
Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).
So psilencers with psybolt stratagem then? Because that pretty much follows your description.
Yes, it will require CP, but if you can delete or at least cripple a custodes squad with it, wouldn't that be worth it, as they tend to be few in number.
Too low strength, at least for Bikes. Not awful if you're peppering Custodian Guard or Allarus, but Bikes are T6 so you want S6+ weapons, preferably S7.
Yeah, I can see that. 5+ to wound is still tough, even with the absurd RoF you get from them.
Marmatag wrote: Every Grey Knights player takes first to the fray if they can. So much of Grey Knights is built around deep striking.
And seriously mathing out bike captains at 4++ is unfair. In practice 2 out of 3 will have a 3++, passively.
Yes, but it still has a reasonable showing vs 3++.
The whole exercise still doesn't show much that Custards are a wide margin better mathematically. On the table i'm sure there are other advantages, but I still see some interesting plays available to GK.
Like two 5 man purifiers in a rhino. Park it 11" behind the front. Let the captain charge. Next turn hope out, move, and double D6 smite. No small amount of points for that though...
3++ is a 50% improvement in durability, and of course, being untargetable if there are other models closer is quite a big deal, as well as being relatively smaller so you can actually avoid LOS.
This exercise DOES show Custodes are mathematically superior.
Two 5 man purifiers in a rhino is a minimum of ~350 points, and you need to be within 3" to actually get that smite off.
It is beyond ridiculous that people come in here defending Grey Knights who obviously do not play Grey Knights. 350 points to potentially deal 7 damage is slowed. The Custodes player will have 2 manticores in the back for 70 points less and doesn't need to waddle up the board and hope their opponent is stupid enough to get in range of the 3" smite.
I mean maybe the math hammer shows they're the same if you think Custode captains have a 5++ instead of the 3++ they actually have. I mean wtf
Marmatag wrote: 3++ is a 50% improvement in durability, and of course, being untargetable if there are other models closer is quite a big deal, as well as being relatively smaller so you can actually avoid LOS.
This exercise DOES show Custodes are mathematically superior.
Two 5 man purifiers in a rhino is a minimum of ~350 points, and you need to be within 3" to actually get that smite off.
It is beyond ridiculous that people come in here defending Grey Knights who obviously do not play Grey Knights. 350 points to potentially deal 7 damage is slowed. The Custodes player will have 2 manticores in the back for 70 points less and doesn't need to waddle up the board and hope their opponent is stupid enough to get in range of the 3" smite.
I mean maybe the math hammer shows they're the same if you think Custode captains have a 5++ instead of the 3++ they actually have. I mean wtf
No, I was fully up front that I don't play them. I made some points against them earlier. Someone else came in favor of them and it made my wheels spin.
I gave a captain 4++ initially not 5++.
350 points to potentially deal 7 damage is slowed.
Let's ponder that for a moment. Let's use this much touted -2 to hit captain.
4 BS3 lascannons do 1 damage to him.
4 BS3 Twin Assault Cannons do 2.7 damage
What do you think the equivalent points would be for those options to do 7 total damage?
A couple of manticores...could spend all game working on a GMDK. There's a 1 in 4 they could ace it in 2 turns if it never had it's 3++ up.
I play Grey Knights. I have for a long time. I’ve gotten them close, but it’s tough in the wide open 8th edition meta. They struggle with T8. More access to FW would go a long way to helping their weaknesses and would not require a codex overhaul.
Comparing GK to Custodes is a fair assessment. They are surprisingly close to one another. Bringing in Manticores or other ally units distorts the comparison. GK can bring in the same stuff and it turns into a Guard vs. Guard battle with a few GK and Custodes sprinkled in. In the ally world Custodes meet the power Null Zone and its all she wrote.
One thing the SCDE vs. GMDK debate did not touch on is the Grand Master can get a 2++ when needed. It costs a psychic power and 2cp and he needs to start on the board, but he becomes over the top when this happens.
Thousand Sons are the best army in the game. Look at my math...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthDiggler wrote: I play Grey Knights. I have for a long time. I’ve gotten them close, but it’s tough in the wide open 8th edition meta. They struggle with T8. More access to FW would go a long way to helping their weaknesses and would not require a codex overhaul.
Comparing GK to Custodes is a fair assessment. They are surprisingly close to one another. Bringing in Manticores or other ally units distorts the comparison. GK can bring in the same stuff and it turns into a Guard vs. Guard battle with a few GK and Custodes sprinkled in. In the ally world Custodes meet the power Null Zone and its all she wrote.
One thing the SCDE vs. GMDK debate did not touch on is the Grand Master can get a 2++ when needed. It costs a psychic power and 2cp and he needs to start on the board, but he becomes over the top when this happens.
See this is where you guys are falling off the rails.
"The" GMNDK.
In reality you'll bring 3. Which means you can have 2 of them with a 3++. Hopefully you go first. But that means one will still be targetable with a 4++.
Finally they're 3 models. You don't even need to kill them to win, not that it's overly difficult. Just get them in melee with some bigger squads. they'll free themselves after a couple turns, sure, but by then you'll have swept everything else off of the board. They can Gate of Infinity one GMNDK per turn. This isn't rocket science. Gk are an incredibly easy army to play around even if by some miracle you can't deal with a GMNDK.
And let's be real here, both armies will bring Imperial Guard to back them, the big difference is that your 3 GMNDK will cost almost 1000 points, whereas the 3 bike captains will be basically half of that. If we're doing an apples to apples comparison you have to factor in the gained points in the tradeoff to be fair.
As Tyranids i can spend 300 points and take all your GMNDK out of the fight for the entire game with my chaff. You might get Gate off, you might not. Shadow in the warp and I deny. Good luck. Meanwhile the bike captains leave combat freely and annihilate everything.
No one who wants to win brings 3 GMNDK. That’s fools gold and not a winning strategy. You bring one. It’s a surgical unit. It deals with problems. It doesn’t win you the game. No one will win if you have 1000pts tied up in one type of model. You need more bodies in 8th to win. You bring one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can play the what if game all day. You bring 300pts of Tyranids and I’ll bring 144pts of Ravenguard Aggressors to delete your 300pts of Tyranids. I’m still up 156pts.
Thousand Sons are the best army in the game. Look at my math...
Don't bury yourself in all the straw.
See this is where you guys are falling off the rails.
"The" GMNDK.
In reality you'll bring 3. Which means you can have 2 of them with a 3++. Hopefully you go first. But that means one will still be targetable with a 4++.
This is what's off the rails. "Things are going to get wiped off the table turn 1 mentality". Here's some sample lists from the London GT
IS, Plasma Gun x 7
9 Mortars
3 SCDE
Some BA
Strormlord, 2x LC 2 SCDE
LRBT PGC
SCDE x 2
Vertus x 12
Assassins x 4
Celestine
SCDE
Vertus x 16
CP Battery
SCDE x 3
12 CG Preator x 3
SCDE x 3
SC Vertus x 9
Some BA
Where's the anti-tank? I sure don't see it. A wide number of lists don't have that kind of fire power.
Finally they're 3 models. You don't even need to kill them to win, not that it's overly difficult.
Stop just taking more of one thing.
As Tyranids i can spend 300 points and take all your GMNDK out of the fight for the entire game with my chaff.
10 SS, SB, Psybolts
40 * .777 * .666 = 21 dead gaunts. Besides - you don't have real chaff. The only good 'nids list is a shooty list now, right?
So, again, let me be clear. I played GK through all of 7th and now in 8th, they LITERALLY have no place to go. What are they designed to do? Hunt Daemons? What player ever brings an all daemon list? They cost more than they should. So I dropped them into the box until 9th comes out or they get a full revamp.
You keep making arguments about how much dakka psilencers put out. This is quite foolish. My 116pt Taurox Prime puts out WAY more dakka, for a 3rd of the price. AND it's got AP. For 99pts (under a 3rd of my GK Squad), my mortar teams put out MORE DAKKA WITHOUT LINE OF SIGHT.
Anyone defending GKs is just playing theory hammer, and has never played the actual game. GKs will cause you to lose games. It's that simple. trying up a quarter to half your points in MAYBE two squads of dude who can't affect the fight IF they make it to the fight, is a dumb argument and your a bad person for making it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, let me be clear. I played GK through all of 7th and now in 8th, they LITERALLY have no place to go. What are they designed to do? Hunt Daemons? What player ever brings an all daemon list? They cost more than they should. So I dropped them into the box until 9th comes out or they get a full revamp.
You keep making arguments about how much dakka psilencers put out. This is quite foolish. My 116pt Taurox Prime puts out WAY more dakka, for a 3rd of the price. AND it's got AP. For 99pts (under a 3rd of my GK Squad), my mortar teams put out MORE DAKKA WITHOUT LINE OF SIGHT.
Anyone defending GKs is just playing theory hammer, and has never played the actual game. GKs will cause you to lose games. It's that simple. trying up a quarter to half your points in MAYBE two squads of dude who can't affect the fight IF they make it to the fight, is a dumb argument and your a bad person for making it.
Hang on. You were going Custodes, because they're "Better GK". Why are we roping in IG when GK can take them also?
For the record - that prime sounds like one with a TBC and 2x AC, which is the equivalent of 5.5 AC shots.
A regular DK with H.psycannon and GP is 6 AC shots PLUS 12 S4 D3 (Yes, I know - shorter range!). AND it is 2+. AND it has two more wounds. AND it can fight really well in combat. AND it has a 5++. AND it can teleport. AND it can mini-smite. AND it can deny. BOTH with a +1.
I might not play the army, but that's not the best setup for comparison.
Also, everyone knows mortars are stupid cheap. That doesn't mean GK don't have uses.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, let me be clear. I played GK through all of 7th and now in 8th, they LITERALLY have no place to go. What are they designed to do? Hunt Daemons? What player ever brings an all daemon list? They cost more than they should. So I dropped them into the box until 9th comes out or they get a full revamp.
You keep making arguments about how much dakka psilencers put out. This is quite foolish. My 116pt Taurox Prime puts out WAY more dakka, for a 3rd of the price. AND it's got AP. For 99pts (under a 3rd of my GK Squad), my mortar teams put out MORE DAKKA WITHOUT LINE OF SIGHT.
Anyone defending GKs is just playing theory hammer, and has never played the actual game. GKs will cause you to lose games. It's that simple. trying up a quarter to half your points in MAYBE two squads of dude who can't affect the fight IF they make it to the fight, is a dumb argument and your a bad person for making it.
Essentially this.
To those advocating Gk aren't terrible, can you please post some GK lists you've lost to recently? Would be interesting to see how they're beating you.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Anyone defending GKs is just playing theory hammer, and has never played the actual game. GKs will cause you to lose games. It's that simple. trying up a quarter to half your points in MAYBE two squads of dude who can't affect the fight IF they make it to the fight, is a dumb argument and your a bad person for making it.
Ooooo... anyone who disagrees with Fezzik is a bad person. Double bad for using math.
Deadalus81 is correct, any Imperial player can take IG mortars in an allied unit. Cheap shooting from allies anyone can take might be the worst, most misleading, most desperate comparison possible.
I think the point he's been making throughout this thread is that GK units (while expensive) are fundamentally sound, but mechanical issues and arbitrary restrictions limit their viability as a full army. GK's limitations are not easily explained by points alone, as similar units in other armies (i.e. Custodes) tend to perform very well.
That's worth exploring.
Not sure why some people feel the need to shut down all discussion they don't agree with, but I guess there's some reason we tolerate them.
Here's muy question. GKs are the only army that teleport a Land Raider Crusader anywhere on the table. I would think an LRC bomb is something that could impact a game, am I going to automatically lose if I choose it? For that matter, are there any armies who can do the same?
I think the point he's been making throughout this thread is that GK units (while expensive) are fundamentally sound, but mechanical issues and arbitrary restrictions limit their viability as a full army. GK's limitations are not easily explained by points alone, as similar units in other armies (i.e. Custodes) tend to perform very well.
That's worth exploring.
Stated better than I could.
Here's muy question. GKs are the only army that teleport a Land Raider Crusader anywhere on the table. I would think an LRC bomb is something that could impact a game, am I going to automatically lose if I choose it? For that matter, are there any armies who can do the same?
That would be killer, but only when Land Raiders get assault ramps back. If GK had assault dreadnoughts i'd be deep striking them like crazy.
I think the point he's been making throughout this thread is that GK units (while expensive) are fundamentally sound, but mechanical issues and arbitrary restrictions limit their viability as a full army. GK's limitations are not easily explained by points alone, as similar units in other armies (i.e. Custodes) tend to perform very well.
That's worth exploring.
Stated better than I could.
Here's muy question. GKs are the only army that teleport a Land Raider Crusader anywhere on the table. I would think an LRC bomb is something that could impact a game, am I going to automatically lose if I choose it? For that matter, are there any armies who can do the same?
That would be killer, but only when Land Raiders get assault ramps back. If GK had assault dreadnoughts i'd be deep striking them like crazy.
Assault ramp means disembark after moving the unit?
Ok, if you bothered to read my original post, I clearly stated I play a AM/GK soup mix. So tell me where I hid that nugget of information from anyone.
Second, the Prime has a gatling cannon with 20 shots of s4/ap0 d1, with a scion racial trait that allows them to gain extra shots on 6s. That prime is also given a storm bolter, which is rf2, with the same profile. It has HS Volley gunsx2, so a total of 6 shots at S5, ap-2, d1. All granted the extra shot trait. So lets count em down! 28 shots of s4 with some AP and all d1. With the extra shots on 6s. Mathematically, that means roughly 10-14 hits, 4-6 wounds on MEQ and lower. for 116 pts. Come at me bro.
Now, as to your logic, again, I will point out, as many others have in this thread, it sounds a LOT like you have no experience with these units/armies. And you make that clearer with every word.
Assault ramp means disembark after moving the unit?
Yea, well, I presume that's how it would be if they ever brought it back.
Yeah. That would be nice.
Despite not being able to disembark, the value is establishing a position for a turn-two deep strike. It gives you a chance to clear out the chaff and ensure your units have a good place to arrive.
Turn two, you are going to have your deep strikers plus whatever units it's carrying on the board. It could also support a couple of Interceptors, which could be really important.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, if you bothered to read my original post, I clearly stated I play a AM/GK soup mix. So tell me where I hid that nugget of information from anyone.
Second, the Prime has a gatling cannon with 20 shots of s4/ap0 d1, with a scion racial trait that allows them to gain extra shots on 6s. That prime is also given a storm bolter, which is rf2, with the same profile. It has HS Volley gunsx2, so a total of 6 shots at S5, ap-2, d1. All granted the extra shot trait. So lets count em down! 28 shots of s4 with some AP and all d1. With the extra shots on 6s. Mathematically, that means roughly 10-14 hits, 4-6 wounds on MEQ and lower. for 116 pts. Come at me bro.
Now, as to your logic, again, I will point out, as many others have in this thread, it sounds a LOT like you have no experience with these units/armies. And you make that clearer with every word.
Everyone read your original post, the response was that anyone can take those units.
The comparison is misleading, you are saying cheap shooting from mixed detachments beats a pure GK army. Maybe they do, but that would only be relevant if you were directly comparing lists. Which no one is doing.
The conclusion reached in your previous post - that anyone using GK units is automatically set up to lose - is based on this argument. The follow up - that anyone talking about GK is a bad person - is insulting.
So don't talk to us about logic. You seem to have trouble following your own.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, if you bothered to read my original post, I clearly stated I play a AM/GK soup mix. So tell me where I hid that nugget of information from anyone.
Second, the Prime has a gatling cannon with 20 shots of s4/ap0 d1, with a scion racial trait that allows them to gain extra shots on 6s. That prime is also given a storm bolter, which is rf2, with the same profile. It has HS Volley gunsx2, so a total of 6 shots at S5, ap-2, d1. All granted the extra shot trait. So lets count em down! 28 shots of s4 with some AP and all d1. With the extra shots on 6s. Mathematically, that means roughly 10-14 hits, 4-6 wounds on MEQ and lower. for 116 pts. Come at me bro.
Now, as to your logic, again, I will point out, as many others have in this thread, it sounds a LOT like you have no experience with these units/armies. And you make that clearer with every word.
So now you're taking pure scions? Ok. That's cool. You need to be in half range.
Congratulations! You are now 12" from a DK!
//I won't assume you moved, because clearly you'll make that case regardless
20 * 1.167 = 23.3
23.3 * .666 * .333 * .167 = 0.9 //taurox gat
Lanlaorn wrote: Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights but want to convince everyone how great they are?
It seems like you two are just looking to be contrarians. Have fun I guess.
Lanlaorn, I apologize if there's been some confusion. I don't believe I've said anything about how good I am personally at playing GK, it's just some of the conversations on Dakka about Grey Knights are borderline moronic.
The things that get said, and they way they are said, make me uncomfortable. The dialogue just becomes overwhelmingly negative and overlooks simple facts that are easy to observe. It doesn't recognize any nuance and attacks on people for not being sufficiently dire are common. The rest of us look almost as stupid as the people wailing incoherently about the rules when these conversations go on, unchallenged, for 50+ pages in the forum.
Deadalus81 did a good job putting some of that into focus in this thread, and I appreciate you, Lanlaorn, for proving the point.
It needs to be updated. I completed a Brother Captain, 2 Strike Squads, 2 Intercessor Squads, and 2 more Land Raiders since the last time I posted. But tell me how you think the latest pics look, I'm not a photographer and fiddling with the photo booth does challenge me a little.
I have played a total of 3 games with the new army, 2 wins, 1 loss. Happy to post lists and walk you through what happened in each game, if it helps.
Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no desire to play a 'pure' Grey Knights army and recognize there are problems with the army in 8th edition. The people who are trying to play 'pure' GK armies are handicapping themselves based on some nostalgia for the way the rules were several editions ago, and I genuinely feel sorry for people who are so behind the times.
But the army, overall, is no where near as bad as some people have suggested, and a lot of that has to do with the level of dialogue. It's hard to think when you are so busy talking trash.
So, again, thank you for proving my point. Good job.
Lanlaorn wrote: Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights
I can't speak for him, but correct.
but want to convince everyone how great they are?
Yea, no. I'm investigating why people think they're the worst garbage ever.
It seems like you two are just looking to be contrarians. Have fun I guess.
I thought this was a discussion forum not the complaints department.
Otherwise I presume you don't mind answering some questions?
- Is a TLC/ML ven dread that can give itself astral aim with a +1 to cast NOT a useful unit?
- Are Psybolts and Psychic Onslaught NOT useful abilities?
- If you're going to ally IG with Custodes "to make them work" why wouldn't you ally IG with GK?
- Is it NOT useful to have a deny +1 on every single unit when facing Ahriman proliferation?
- If a Heavy Psycannon is 30 points and is the equivalent of 2 ACs in points, but 3 ACs in shots doesn't that make it a decent weapon?
- Is it considered a bad to be able to bring Paladins that swing with 5 force weapon attacks each? Or 4 with +1 S? That can also give themselves +1 to wound in the fight phase with +1 to cast?
- A common complaint of dreadnoughts is that they're too slow so why aren't people jumping at the chance to deepstrike them?
- Is it not useful for almost ANY unit to get +1 to cast, spend 1 CP for 3D6P2 on spells and then casting vortex with a 1 in 5 chance for a D6MW bubble? Yes I am aware of the restrictions.
Lanlaorn wrote: Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights
I can't speak for him, but correct.
Let me be clear about something: I don't like agreeing with Daedalus81. The same way no one enjoys agreeing with Martel or Peregrine, I usually go out of my way not to see his point.
The fact we see eye to eye in this thread means there is a very serious issue with what's being said.
Lanlaorn wrote: Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights
I can't speak for him, but correct.
Let me be clear about something: I don't like agreeing with Daedalus81. The same way no one enjoys agreeing with Martel or Peregrine, I usually go out of my way not to see his point.
The fact we see eye to eye in this thread means there is a very serious issue with what's being said.
Taking the contrarian stance with 0 experience doesn't make you the champion you think it does.
To anyone who has played Grey Knights, your suggestions come off as really, really bad. Your 350 point double purifier Rhino strategy absolutely floored me with how bad it is, but you think it's some great gambit that just hasn't been thought of.
I would really love to be so arrogant that I think I could just pick any unit out of any codex, no matter how bad it is, and make it not only playable, but great.
Can you elaborate on perhaps how you could make a Tervigon themed Hyrda list that would take BAO in July? It'd be super counter meta and no one would be expecting it, because the general consensus is that unit & hive fleet are no good. I'll give you 5 minutes to google so you can make an informed opinion, and build a tournament winning list.
I did well in multiple events last year with my Grey Knights deep striking Draigo between two storm ravens and chewing things up, as he's the HQ giving your guys full rerolls. That, a GMNDK, and strike squads + purifier squads. The incinerator is actually the best weapon i have found, because it is strength 6 AP-1. I obviously paired this with a screening battalion lead by Celestine. Interceptors are handy but overcosted. They also work with about 1200 points of imperial guard doing the heavy lifting, but I didn't have the guard models. It's not rocket science how to make these guys playable. Although, the recent FAQ has nail-in-the-coffin'd them.
Marmatag wrote: Taking the contrarian stance with 0 experience doesn't make you the champion you think it does.
To anyone who has played Grey Knights, your suggestions come off as really, really bad. Your 350 point double purifier Rhino strategy absolutely floored me with how bad it is, but you think it's some great gambit that just hasn't been thought of.
Where did I say that, exactly? I think it's a unique element that has some potential to have legs. Just like an astral ven dread. Or PC servitors / techmarine / wisdom dreadnought.
That doesn't mean I don't think the book doesn't need changes.
I would really love to be so arrogant that I think I could just pick any unit out of any codex, no matter how bad it is, and make it not only playable, but great.
Again, where did I say things were "great"? My goal is to argue they are not "bad".
But, please, continue to put words in my mouth now that I've incensed you so. Also, the forum is a small segment of the community. Your experiences are not the totality of everything. The forum often veers towards a single path. Like how gunlines are going to be the only list in town, but that doesn't seem to be the way things are shaping up, is it?
Would it make you happy if I listed things I think are bad?
Interceptors are a neat idea, but are bland and have no teeth.
Purgators are pretty pointless, because the psycannon should be 2 damage. Otherwise they're forced to always use onslaught.
Librarians seem totally redundant except for the hood.
Characters are super expensive.
Purifiers are too expensive.
I wish dreads had dual ccw options.
Daedalus81 wrote: Otherwise I presume you don't mind answering some questions?
- Is a TLC/ML ven dread that can give itself astral aim with a +1 to cast NOT a useful unit?
- Are Psybolts and Psychic Onslaught NOT useful abilities?
- If you're going to ally IG with Custodes "to make them work" why wouldn't you ally IG with GK?
- Is it NOT useful to have a deny +1 on every single unit when facing Ahriman proliferation?
- If a Heavy Psycannon is 30 points and is the equivalent of 2 ACs in points, but 3 ACs in shots doesn't that make it a decent weapon?
- Is it considered a bad to be able to bring Paladins that swing with 5 force weapon attacks each? Or 4 with +1 S? That can also give themselves +1 to wound in the fight phase with +1 to cast?
- A common complaint of dreadnoughts is that they're too slow so why aren't people jumping at the chance to deepstrike them?
- Is it not useful for almost ANY unit to get +1 to cast, spend 1 CP for 3D6P2 on spells and then casting vortex with a 1 in 5 chance for a D6MW bubble? Yes I am aware of the restrictions.
I'll answer them.
-It is a useful but overpriced unit. Also entirely dependant on the board, most targets small enough AND expensive enough to be worth shooting a LC at behind a LOS blocking wall are also characters. Maybe that would be a good thing to add to the astral aim spell, target characters.
-THIS JUST IN! Stratagems are useful. But also very hard to generate for Grey Knights. You actually have to balance CP usage compared to other armies, GK can't get 1+ invul, reroll any dice, and psychic onslaught every turn. You will pop at most 4 stratagems in a game.
-Didn't read his post.
-It is useful, but did I miss something about Ahriman spam? He is a character. In one specific and EXPENSIVE army to field a detachment of. Since he has a +1 to cast the deny washes out.
-Heavy Psycannon is literally on 2 units in the game, 2 units that are incredibly expensive and you can only take one per unit. You will maybe have 3 Heavy Psycannons. It's a good weapon, that is actually limited. Which means it is an average weapon and there is a opportunity cost. If you think having 3 extra assault cannons in an overpriced army is gamebreaking you're hopeless. If the Heavy Psycannon was on Dreadnoughts, NOW I would say... no one would care still.
-Custodes do it better in every single freaking way. Which is why were talking about them. THEY ALREADY DO IT BETTER ON THEIR TROOPS! FOR CHEAPER. PEOPLE STILL SAY THEY SUCK OR ARE OVERPRICED!
-Because spending CP on a below average unit in a army that has trouble getting CP is bad. It still takes a DS slot as well which means something else will be slogging up the board.
-D6MW bubble my ass, read the fething spell it is centered on the MODEL, not the UNIT, the NEAREST ENEMY MODEL but the wounds are on a UNIT basis. Vortex of Doom is literally a basic smite until it goes over a 12 in which case IT STILL IS A BASIC SMITE. The positioning of the enemy for this spell to hit more than 2 units would have to be so abhorrent that you likely deepstriked behind their lines in the first place.
Everyone thinks it hits the unit, and then every unit within 3" of that unit. It's within 3" of the target model. And it hits your OWN units.
It is flatly worse than smite.
And Custodes are cheaper than GK.. making it easier to take allies. This isn't rocket science. Custodes + Guard is meta, GK + Guard isn't, for a damn good set of reasons.
And seriously who pays over 200 points for a dreadnought? Just to astral aim itself? I can't even with these suggestions.
Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.
It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.
Quickjager wrote: Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.
It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.
Quickjager wrote: Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.
It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.
Quickjager wrote: Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.
It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.
Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.
The link you posted does not match your claim.
Also, wow, rude attack post.
Oh, well, thank you for the response.
It's funny you say that, Quickjaeger also said he was not being too negative in that post. When I read it originally, the part where he got all sarcastic, I had the sense he was taking my observations personally. Like it was offensive suggesting anyone seek out other opinions.
But that's not how you read it?
He went on to rant about claims I did not make later in the thread, which is when I decided it's just best to ignore his posts.
The way I look at it, there's a line between educating people on the downsides of the Codex and indoctrinating people in some ethos of pure hopelessness. Recycling the same points over and over again, attacking people for using language that is not bleak enough, wrapping responses in rambling rants that take 5 minutes to read... that has nothing to do with educating people about what they are getting into.
I don't feel like I should be obligated to read posts like that, and I don't feel like I should just sit there and watch people spew this garbage. It may be more accurate to say the 8th edition Grey Knights Tactics thread is a whole thread devoted to attacking a single Codex and anyone who disagrees.
But that's not for me to judge. I like the title below your name and noticed some of your previous posts on the subject.
And seriously who pays over 200 points for a dreadnought? Just to astral aim itself? I can't even with these suggestions.
It’s 185pts for a Ven Dread with twin-lascannon, missile and Astral Aim, not over 200pts. If you are hiding out of LOS to take advantage of an effective indirect fire platform, you do not buy the ccw.
I like taking GK with Ad Mech. I find they compliment each other pretty well.
-It is a useful but overpriced unit. Also entirely dependant on the board, most targets small enough AND expensive enough to be worth shooting a LC at behind a LOS blocking wall are also characters. Maybe that would be a good thing to add to the astral aim spell, target characters.
Only 20 points more than standard. I'd kill for a psychic dread. It's less that you need to shoot something out of LOS and more than you have a very safe firing platform.
-THIS JUST IN! Stratagems are useful. But also very hard to generate for Grey Knights. You actually have to balance CP usage compared to other armies, GK can't get 1+ invul, reroll any dice, and psychic onslaught every turn. You will pop at most 4 stratagems in a game.
Sure, I think IG are mandatory. Absolutely.
-It is useful, but did I miss something about Ahriman spam? He is a character. In one specific and EXPENSIVE army to field a detachment of. Since he has a +1 to cast the deny washes out.
Talking in general the wide use of Ahriman and DPs.
-Heavy Psycannon is literally on 2 units in the game, 2 units that are incredibly expensive and you can only take one per unit. You will maybe have 3 Heavy Psycannons. It's a good weapon, that is actually limited. Which means it is an average weapon and there is a opportunity cost. If you think having 3 extra assault cannons in an overpriced army is gamebreaking you're hopeless. If the Heavy Psycannon was on Dreadnoughts, NOW I would say... no one would care still.
I totally don't think it's game breaking. I think it's a solid weapon on a solid platform.
-Custodes do it better in every single freaking way. Which is why were talking about them. THEY ALREADY DO IT BETTER ON THEIR TROOPS! FOR CHEAPER. PEOPLE STILL SAY THEY SUCK OR ARE OVERPRICED!
Right, they do, but by not a massive margin in a very one dimensional army. Paladins are not "bad" in the grand scheme of things.
-Because spending CP on a below average unit in a army that has trouble getting CP is bad. It still takes a DS slot as well which means something else will be slogging up the board.
-D6MW bubble my ass, read the fething spell it is centered on the MODEL, not the UNIT, the NEAREST ENEMY MODEL but the wounds are on a UNIT basis. Vortex of Doom is literally a basic smite until it goes over a 12 in which case IT STILL IS A BASIC SMITE. The positioning of the enemy for this spell to hit more than 2 units would have to be so abhorrent that you likely deepstriked behind their lines in the first place.
As I stated - "Yes I am aware of the restrictions." I have Gateway. I can't use Gateway, because to be in position and to have the spell is pretty difficult. GK have an opportunity to just have the spell on a number of units and take advantage of the opportunity should it arise. Especially since they can pick from any model in the unit and not one very specific model like Thousand Sons.
Quickjager wrote: Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.
It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.
Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.
The link you posted does not match your claim.
Also, wow, rude attack post.
Oh, well, thank you for the response.
It's funny you say that, Quickjaeger also said he was not being too negative in that post. When I read it originally, the part where he got all sarcastic, I had the sense he was taking my observations personally. Like it was offensive suggesting anyone seek out other opinions.
But that's not how you read it?
He went on to rant about claims I did not make later in the thread, which is when I decided it's just best to ignore his posts.
The way I look at it, there's a line between educating people on the downsides of the Codex and indoctrinating people in some ethos of pure hopelessness. Recycling the same points over and over again, attacking people for using language that is not bleak enough, wrapping responses in rambling rants that take 5 minutes to read... that has nothing to do with educating people about what they are getting into.
I don't feel like I should be obligated to read posts like that, and I don't feel like I should just sit there and watch people spew this garbage. It may be more accurate to say the 8th edition Grey Knights Tactics thread is a whole thread devoted to attacking a single Codex and anyone who disagrees.
But that's not for me to judge. I like the title below your name and noticed some of your previous posts on the subject.
I've given up just as much on GK at a competitive level, but I express that by simply disengaging. I've gone Custodes and until GK get massive buffs in some form I traded in grey for gold. The main problem with GK is that they're too expensive for their fragility. If you want to mono-dex them than you ALSO have problems of lacking long-range anti-tank and being too CP hungry.
Custodes, by contrast, are just so efficient for their point cost it's crazy. 3 Bikes with Misericordia are 282 points, 5 Paladins with 2 Psilencers is 291. Paladins have 8 Psilencer shots (with -1 to Hit if they move and shoot those guns, which they will cause they're only 24") and 6/12 Storm Bolter shots. The Bikes have 18/36 Hurricane Bolter shots. Paladins have 5" move. Bikes have 14" move and Fly. Bikes are ObSec, Paladins are not. Paladins have 15 wounds, but the Bikes aren't far behind with 12. Paladins are T4, Bikes are T6 (even Heavy Bolters wound on 5's! Overcharged Plasma only wounds on 3's!). Paladins have 2+/5++ saves, Bikes are 2+/4++. In melee, optimized Paladins (sans hammer) are 20 attacks at S4, Bikes are 12 attacks, re-rolling all wounds on the charge at S6 and 3 attacks at S5. Paladins hit on a 3+ with shooting, Bikes hit on a 2+. Only the Paragon (Paladin Sergeant) hits on a 2+ in melee, others are 3+, all Bikes hit on a 2+. For less points you are just getting so much more and this works with really any similar unit comparison in the GK/Custodes books. Custodes, like GK, also have army-wide 1D3 damage melee weapons.
People bring up the fact GK's are psykers, but the Rule of 1 and Baby-Smite make that almost worthless. ONE unit gets Hammerhand, ONE unit gets Sanctuary, ONE unit can Gate. ALL Bikes have these stats. ALL Custodes have these advantages. Adding in a 1 damage Smite at only 12" range (GK lose 6" on their Smite range) doesn't balance that out.
A big issue is also the meta. We need a major tournament still for all the new changes, but a GK army won't live long against a heavy gunline army. Those usually operate at 36"+ range and/or have flyers (that GK can't assault cause GWdidn't put Fly on our Interceptors when we used to have Jump). With the new Deep Strike rules we take FOREVER to get across the board and weather a shooting STORM until our T2 when we can drop in and try to charge. Most GK units should be terrified to even TRY charging a Codex-Tau gunline. Cadian/Catachan artillery is also brutal when you can't land close enough to charge them and have nowhere to hide.
We can't beat heavy assault armies, except maybe Orks. Custodes, even Index Custodes, mulched GK's in melee except for the GMDK. 177 points gets you a unit of 9 Custodian Guard with 9 attacks hitting on 2's, wounding GK on 3's and all 9 wounds have 3++. Conversely, Strikes get only a 6+ save against that and Terminators/Paladins are relying on a 5+ that one-shot a Terminator on average if they get through. A Blood Angels army can drop a Captain Slamguinus in our face who ignores all overwatch, has a re-rollable 3D6 charge and can do a staggering 85ish max damage per turn. Even if he's on the low end he will just delete a GMDK. 'Normal' BA assault units, like Sanguinary Guard, also have Fly so they can charge those nasty shooting fliers and jump over any protective screens. CSM gets Warptime and Berzerkers. Even Harlequins get a version of Warptime.
GK can't even stand against a real psyker army anymore. Thousand Sons and Tyranids throw out more mortal wounds per turn, Tyranids penalize our casting and Thousand Sons get REAL Smite on their characters which is never harder to cast than a 5. Magnus can come in with his huge bonus to cast and re-rolling 1's simply to strip your Sanctuary unit's protection with Death Hex and then blow it out of the water too.
Custodes high durability, high damage and -1 to Hit aura makes it possible to survive and counter-punch these (Psyker heavy armies being the biggest issue for them without allies though). GK just don't have the tools so mine go in the bin except for the occasional fun match.
Don't support that store anymore. If he's not the owner, be sure to inform the owner, they deserve to know that this guy did his best to talk you out of a sale because he was salty that someone would have a stronger list than his own, and that he chose to insult you at the same time for even considering it.
Everyone thinks it hits the unit, and then every unit within 3" of that unit. It's within 3" of the target model. And it hits your OWN units.
It is flatly worse than smite.
See above.
And seriously who pays over 200 points for a dreadnought? Just to astral aim itself? I can't even with these suggestions.
110 + 50 + 25 = 185
For a BS2 dreadnought that can hide anywhere? Yea. I would. You might be too good for it, but lots of armies would jump at it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote: The main problem with GK is that they're too expensive for their fragility. If you want to mono-dex them than you ALSO have problems of lacking long-range anti-tank and being too CP hungry.
As a Thousand Sons player that never leaned on Tzaangors I understand many of the GK problems intimately.
People bring up the fact GK's are psykers, but the Rule of 1 and Baby-Smite make that almost worthless. ONE unit gets Hammerhand, ONE unit gets Sanctuary, ONE unit can Gate. ALL Bikes have these stats. ALL Custodes have these advantages. Adding in a 1 damage Smite at only 12" range (GK lose 6" on their Smite range) doesn't balance that out.
Right, I totally get that. I just don't see a wide enough gap where I would personally say that the army isn't worth anything - in perspective of the full set of tools.
A big issue is also the meta. We need a major tournament still for all the new changes, but a GK army won't live long against a heavy gunline army.
Gunlines are pretty rare so far - partly because of Custodes. T'au is still a problem.
A Blood Angels army can drop a Captain Slamguinus in our face who ignores all overwatch, has a re-rollable 3D6 charge and can do a staggering 85ish max damage per turn. Even if he's on the low end he will just delete a GMDK.
To be fair he kills almost anything, really. That's the other problem I see - GK paying for all these force weapons.
GK can't even stand against a real psyker army anymore. Thousand Sons and Tyranids throw out more mortal wounds per turn, Tyranids penalize our casting and Thousand Sons get REAL Smite on their characters which is never harder to cast than a 5. Magnus can come in with his huge bonus to cast and re-rolling 1's simply to strip your Sanctuary unit's protection with Death Hex and then blow it out of the water too.
I'll have to disagree a bit there. You have the best psychic defense of any army with the +1 to everything. Magnus is a whole different level of course.
Custodes high durability, high damage and -1 to Hit aura makes it possible to survive and counter-punch these (Psyker heavy armies being the biggest issue for them without allies though). GK just don't have the tools so mine go in the bin except for the occasional fun match.
I don't think GK are better than Custodes, but the meta also isn't packing a all Magnificas. There are 14 of them out of 34 detachments. Custodes are cost efficient, but they still aren't cheap and they're horribly one dimensional and predictable.
Quickjager wrote: Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.
It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.
Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.
You don't seem to get that we have REALLY ACTUALLY tried to thrive in this edition. You can see the optimism in the first 20 pages of the Tactica thread, the discussion of apothecary armies, Voldus and Librarian centered armies. I even went and got myself one of those limited edition Termies chaplains thinking how cool it would be to finally have them. We were actually psyched to have access to so many new units.
But then it wore off. We saw the writing on the wall with some simple math, QoL changes that were reverted or plain gone. Then other codices came out after us. We were old and busted in a flat 2 months.
There is just too much going against elite armies this editon to have a subpar elite codex and hope to have a good time in a match. So god forbid you come and tell me I'm wrong about how the army stands as it is, because you two seem to be acting like its a Weekend at Bernie's except it's the GK army that is dead.
Quickjager wrote: Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.
It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.
Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.
You don't seem to get that we have REALLY ACTUALLY tried to thrive in this edition. You can see the optimism in the first 20 pages of the Tactica thread, the discussion of apothecary armies, Voldus and Librarian centered armies. I even went and got myself one of those limited edition Termies chaplains thinking how cool it would be to finally have them. We were actually psyched to have access to so many new units.
But then it wore off. We saw the writing on the wall with some simple math, QoL changes that were reverted or plain gone. Then other codices came out after us. We were old and busted in a flat 2 months.
There is just too much going against elite armies this editon to have a subpar elite codex and hope to have a good time in a match. So god forbid you come and tell me I'm wrong about how the army stands as it is, because you two seem to be acting like its a Weekend at Bernie's except it's the GK army that is dead.
Hrm. Interesting response.
I have read the entire Tactics thread (but for some of the more recent posts,) along with sources that include other forums, battle reports, non-GK Codexes (for unit comparison,) and Codexes from previous editions (to improve my frame of reference.) I've played many games against Grey Knights, a number of games with my Grey Knights and believe I have an accurate understanding of how the army performs and operates.
As far as I know, I have not said your comments are incorrect (yet.) I have said your comments are purely negative, toxic, and often cause conversation about the army to shut down. I've characterized them as garbage several times and, in general, will not respond to your points.
This is because the entirety of our recent interaction is about your feelings. I acknowledge you are sad about the rules for Grey Knights and that you have a perception the army was shafted in this edition. But there is a difference between being correct and feeling the way you do. I mean, feelings are not correct or incorrect, they are a disposition someone possesses towards an idea. Other people can feel differently about something, and that doesn't mean your feelings are invalid. I have never said you or anyone else should feel a different way, your emotions belong to you.
When you try to force other people to feel the same way you do, that's where the conversation stops being about Grey Knights and becomes a manipulative attempt to control others. That is not the only time you have done that in the Tactics thread, nor are you the only person who does it. I really did not want to spend the time confronting you, mostly because it would feed this image of persecution you are intent on promoting.
So I just skip your posts. I already know what they are going to say, you feel bad about Grey Knights and believe everything that could be said about them has been said. And anyone who feels different is saying you are not correct, and they are wrong for having a different set of feelings because yours are the right and proper set of feelings to have.
There are times you have been a lot less negative about playing a Grey Knights army and I'm not sure what changed to bring you to this point. Please understand there is nothing personal about it, I just have better ways to use my time. Like most people in the real world, I do not enjoy being told how to feel, or that there is something wrong about my feelings. I don't see why I should be obligated to interact with someone who feels compelled to tell me how to feel, at some point there's a line that gets crossed.
The post I made that seemed to trigger this back and forth was that GK are not as bad as people make them out to be. Please note that is not the same as saying they are competitive, which is something I could care less about. I am simply saying they are not hopeless in response to a comment about the army being 'screwed.' I provided a video battle report to support this claim, where featured GK in a fairly competitive game.
That's a fairly innocuous comment, it doesn't really assert anything other than the idea that playing Grey Knights does not automatically mean you are going to lose every game. It baffles me how you could so much into it or see it as a threat. My impression is that the energy you devote into these bleaker-than-Norwegian-Death-Metal responses is not worth it, and, if you honestly do hate Grey Knights that much, you should consider replacing your models with another army. Complaining about them in online forums and trying to compel others to share that outlook is not healthy and probably a sign of other life issues that need to be addressed.
DM me if you want to talk about it. I'm not a licensed counselor, but I do manage people and focus on helping others move into positions where they can enjoy the most success. In situations like this, I like to remind people you get 24 hours, it's a gift you can do whatever you want with. Happiness is spending that time in a way you enjoy that causes the least amount of damage to those around you.
And please understand, it's not just you. People in this thread have told others they are dumb and bad people for taking Grey Knights units. It's totally possible you are some prince surrounded by knuckledraggers who have sucked you into a spiraling vortex to see who can say the worst things about Grey Knights possible. It's hard to get out of those race-to-the-bottom-type situations, and I'm totally open to the idea you may actually have something to share that's worth reading at some point in the future.
Honestly, I am not judging you here. I just have better things to do than constantly worry about your feelings and resist your attempts to drag others down. I'm going to continue ignoring your posts unless you have something interesting to say.
In the meantime, the perspective of someone who is a relative outsider to the army is that GK units (while expensive) are fundamentally sound, but mechanical issues and arbitrary restrictions limit their viability as a full army. GK's limitations are not easily explained by points alone, as similar units in other armies (i.e. Custodes) tend to perform very well.
It's a very curious hypothesis to those who are looking at it analytically. On paper, Grey Knights should work a lot better than what they do. This is what Deadalus81 and I have been talking about, and there is value in understanding that question more fully. It has not been dealt with in the Tactics thread, at least not in a meaningful way that is objective and free from hyperbole / speculation / excessive emotion.
It's great that you have all this experience playing the army and get tabled all the time or whatever. But try to resist the urge to conflate that experience with an actual analysis of the mechanics of the army. There are other people who have had different experiences - like the ones in that video - and see things differently.
And that's fine. It doesn't mean you are incorrect, or that your feelings are invalid. It just means it's not all about you, and that's okay.
Honestly, I am not judging you here. I just have better things to do than constantly worry about your feelings and resist your attempts to drag others down. I'm going to continue ignoring your posts unless you have something interesting to say.
Really? Coulda fooled me with this post. None of this is relevant to the points he made in this thread. But you said you aren't going to respond to those. Which begs the question of why exactly did you respond to the statements he made in here at all? Just wanted to get all this off your chest?
There is just too much going against elite armies this editon to have a subpar elite codex and hope to have a good time in a match. So god forbid you come and tell me I'm wrong about how the army stands as it is, because you two seem to be acting like its a Weekend at Bernie's except it's the GK army that is dead.
I play an elite army. Did you not see the pile of threads absolutely hammering on Thousand Sons or as I'm supposed to call it "Tzeentch Daemonkin"? I haven't played GK, but I sure as hell have an idea for how they might play.
I'm not here to tell you you're wrong, but I look at the London GT lists and NONE of them took CP generating allies. Almost all of them maxed out on GMDK. And when they were done with that they maxed out on LC Razorbacks. One is just a whipping boy for a Shadowsword list.
So there's this pervasive thought that if I just take the maximum of the "good" stuff then that's the best that can be done and I think people need to come to terms with the army a bit. Sure, I get cultists and tzaangors so I can't complain about GK level elite, but I DO have more breathing room after the latest FAQ to get more elite models on the table.
We're not that far in on the FAQ - there is still a ton to uncover and this tournament is going to shape perceptions quite a bit, especially with all the list data available.
Honestly, I am not judging you here. I just have better things to do than constantly worry about your feelings and resist your attempts to drag others down. I'm going to continue ignoring your posts unless you have something interesting to say.
Really? Coulda fooled me with this post. None of this is relevant to the points he made in this thread. But you said you aren't going to respond to those. Which begs the question of why exactly did you respond to the statements he made in here at all? Just wanted to get all this off your chest?
Judgement means saying that someone is right or wrong. I have not said that.
The points he made in this thread are gross distortions of what other people said, and I believe they were intended strictly to start arguments.
That's what most people call trolling. Is there a reason I should respond to them?
One other point I would make to fence sitters - Custodes are pretty popular. So are mortars. These things are going to draw the eye of Sauro...I mean GW.
Don't expect them to survive as they currently are - especially if they outperform.
Daedalus81 wrote: One other point I would make to fence sitters - Custodes are pretty popular. So are mortars. These things are going to draw the eye of Sauro...I mean GW.
Don't expect them to survive as they currently are - especially if they outperform.
I mean, mortars got a really hefty nerf with the rule of three. Average competitive guard list had like 9 mortar HWTs and now it's down to three. those are like 30pt units, they don't make much of a difference if you can only get 9 bases of them on the table.
The other thing about custodes though is that they're LUDICROUSLY cheap to collect by 40k standards. Your allied three captain biker doods is one kit. One fairly expensive kit, but one kit, for like 900ish points of HQs that come ready for their own detachment, and take 15 seconds to paint.
Some factions are OP more frequently than others (Eldar/SM are usually near the top, Orkz/Sisters are usually near the bottom), but it changes a lot. The evolving rules push the meta to evolve even faster - and not just between the same couple lists. Heck, Sisters were arguably top tier for a while! Sisters, one of the factions most agreed was dead! SM, CSM, R&H, Necrons, Tau, Nids, IG, CWE, and IG have all had recent turns at the top of the heap.
It means that if you collect the army you want, and it's not fringe faction, you're not that much less likely to be competitive in 6 months than most of the other factions out there!
That said, there are some outliers (SM, CWE usually good, Orkz usually bad). But otherwise, if you're a major faction, just wait it out.
That's where GK have it expecially rough. In 5th/6th, they basically got told "I guess you guys are kinda a main faction". And now they're getting relegated to the suppliments with Harlies, Inquisitors, Sisters, etc. So I feel bad for main-GK players because not being a 'main' army seems to greatly decrease their odds of being top dog, outside of skew lists.
The main problem with GK is their small unit make up. They have a TON of HQ options, two troops, and a bunch of Elite choices. It's almost as if they were made to be supplemental as a Vanguard Det, never as a "main force". I think if you dropped Paladins to Troops, it would go a LOOOONG way towards balancing them. They still have all their fluff crap in HQ and Elites. Also, drop the price of DKs to make them more in line with other point efficient Heavy Support units. Their aren't a great deal of Melee focused Heavies, and the fact that this one is somewhat vital to the play ability of the force should mean that it's a more easy to accept cost.
Finally lets make the Psycannons a flat d6, 1 shot. No reason that weapon should be aimed at anything under a Rhino.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The main problem with GK is their small unit make up. They have a TON of HQ options, two troops, and a bunch of Elite choices. It's almost as if they were made to be supplemental as a Vanguard Det, never as a "main force". I think if you dropped Paladins to Troops, it would go a LOOOONG way towards balancing them. They still have all their fluff crap in HQ and Elites. Also, drop the price of DKs to make them more in line with other point efficient Heavy Support units. Their aren't a great deal of Melee focused Heavies, and the fact that this one is somewhat vital to the play ability of the force should mean that it's a more easy to accept cost.
Finally lets make the Psycannons a flat d6, 1 shot. No reason that weapon should be aimed at anything under a Rhino.
Yep. Paladins are being robbed in the elite slot. Can't think of a reason to take plain Terminators, especially now that Deathwatch gets better ones.
Focusing on the beta strike. The angle I'm looking at with the current rules is clearing out screens to immediately get to the good stuff. GoI on a Land Raider Crusader is one idea, but there are more efficient options out there.
I understand the FW limitations for GK, but I sometimes run 3 Scorpius' with my Black Legion army. With double shooting, they reliably wipe out multiple infantry units a turn with indirect fire for ~700 points.
Thinking GK is a better army with an allied Deathwatch detachment that includes several of those. Melee-oriented Heavy Support units can have a lot of value, but only with the space to tear into the heart of an opponent's army. One of the reasons people can't agree on Delifers is there's no way to deliver them for melee, but NDKs have that.
re: Psycannons: is that enough of a buff? I really think what holds them back is the fact they are heavy and the AP. In Chaos lists, I don't generally shoot at vehicles with anything less than AP -2.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The main problem with GK is their small unit make up. They have a TON of HQ options, two troops, and a bunch of Elite choices. It's almost as if they were made to be supplemental as a Vanguard Det, never as a "main force". I think if you dropped Paladins to Troops, it would go a LOOOONG way towards balancing them. They still have all their fluff crap in HQ and Elites. Also, drop the price of DKs to make them more in line with other point efficient Heavy Support units. Their aren't a great deal of Melee focused Heavies, and the fact that this one is somewhat vital to the play ability of the force should mean that it's a more easy to accept cost.
Finally lets make the Psycannons a flat d6, 1 shot. No reason that weapon should be aimed at anything under a Rhino.
Yep. Paladins are being robbed in the elite slot. Can't think of a reason to take plain Terminators, especially now that Deathwatch gets better ones.
Focusing on the beta strike. The angle I'm looking at with the current rules is clearing out screens to immediately get to the good stuff. GoI on a Land Raider Crusader is one idea, but there are more efficient options out there.
I understand the FW limitations for GK, but I sometimes run 3 Scorpius' with my Black Legion army. With double shooting, they reliably wipe out multiple infantry units a turn with indirect fire for ~700 points.
Thinking GK is a better army with an allied Deathwatch detachment that includes several of those. Melee-oriented Heavy Support units can have a lot of value, but only with the space to tear into the heart of an opponent's army. One of the reasons people can't agree on Delifers is there's no way to deliver them for melee, but NDKs have that.
re: Psycannons: is that enough of a buff? I really think what holds them back is the fact they are heavy and the AP. In Chaos lists, I don't generally shoot at vehicles with anything less than AP -2.
They can be buffed with psybolts. That kicks them up to S8 AP-2. With 4 shots and variable damage it can take a few wounds for its cost.
Daedalus81 wrote: One other point I would make to fence sitters - Custodes are pretty popular. So are mortars. These things are going to draw the eye of Sauro...I mean GW.
Don't expect them to survive as they currently are - especially if they outperform.
I expect bikes to get nerfed. But that is about it. As far as I can tell that is the biggest unit outlier. They're essentially Imperium Flyrants. The rest of the army doesn't really rock the boat.
GK doesn't have "one problem," they have a myriad of problems.
1. Their psychic powers are trash, and are castrated by the rule of 1. *Gate of Infinity would be solid if it could affect IMPERIUM. *Astral Aim would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units). *Vortex of Doom would be good if it hit units within 6" of the unit rather than units within 3" of the model *Sanctuary would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units). *Hammerhand would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units). *Purge Soul has a high ceiling but would be better as a simple calculus - your leadership +1 minus opponent's *unmodified* leadership, as mortal wounds. Personally I would drop this entirely and give them a mobility power like warp time. They need it. Badly. More later.
2. Upgrade Rites of Banishment, it sucks. It's got no flavor at all, and in practice is rarely worth the perils risk. I would drop it entirely and replace it with Cleansing Flame. Inflicts D6 strength 6, ap-1, 1dmg hits to every unit within 12". You can't spam this by virtue of how frigging expensive a model is. Also, librarians shouldn't have this. They should have normal smite. Seriously.
3. Stratagems should be added. There should be a way for GK to break the psychic rule of 1 with a stratagem. There should be a way for GK to auto-cast a power, without the possibility of deny. There should be a way to get significantly increased movement. There should be a way for GK to augment their powers like rites of banishment against Daemons. It should not be passive. Something like 2cp - Rites of banishment deals a flat D3 mortal wounds rather than the hits for this turn. GK should have a reactive defense stratagem to boost invulnerable saves to 3++ for a phase, rather than paying for 1 unit at the start of your turn. Etc.
4. GK models need more attacks. Purifiers lost an attack in 8th, and as it stands the bog-standard GK should be base 2 attacks. Getting into melee is inordinately difficult with this army, and they're already very expensive.
5. Paladins and Terminators need a 4++. Terminators are left out in the cold. GK terminators are the worst terminators in the entire game. A 4++ wouldn't break them, and they might see a turn of manticore fire without crumbling in seconds. This plus the extra attack would help a bit. I would also make them both T5, STR5.
6. Update the weapons. Incinerators are fine where they are. Psilencers should be 12 shots, str4, ap0, 1dmg. Psycannons should be strength 8, ap-2, 3 dmg, with a 36" range. GK melee weapons should ignore invulnerable saves - period. Most models will still get a save against them anyway as their AP isn't that great, but you won't see the annoying "anything better than AP-1 is worthless on your elite models that all have AP-2 or better." It would also make them far more fighty in an edition where everything is about stacking slowed invulnerable saves or wounds.
7. Give GK access to Primaris. Another faction that would benefit immensely from primaris is GK.
8. No mobility. This faction has no mobility. Gate of Infinity and Deep Strike. That's it. Everything is slow as feth, once you drop your expensive terminators or paladins in, people can easily avoid them, if they don't feel like crushing a 5++ in seconds.
Contrary to what people with 0 experience with Grey Knights will tell you, this faction is in a very seriously bad place right now. Not sure why people who have never played GK have a vested interest in arguing how good they are - back to my original challenge - describe the GK lists that are beating you.
I'm guessing you don't play... let's pick Necrons. If you do, just pretend I said $faction.
If a Necron player were to suggest that Monoliths were in a bad place, and suggested they halved their points, doubled their T and W, and added a couple A:10 S10 Ap-5 W:d6 guns to it, are you unqualified to comment?
Daedalus81 wrote: One other point I would make to fence sitters - Custodes are pretty popular. So are mortars. These things are going to draw the eye of Sauro...I mean GW.
Don't expect them to survive as they currently are - especially if they outperform.
I expect bikes to get nerfed. But that is about it. As far as I can tell that is the biggest unit outlier. They're essentially Imperium Flyrants. The rest of the army doesn't really rock the boat.
I think Bikes are actually balanced within the meta as a whole (inter-faction). They're disproportionately good within their own Codex though (intra-faction). You nerf the bikes with nothing else and you just made another middling faction with no competitive hopes. That's not beyond GW, but you'd think they'd learn.
To fully tweak Custodes into balance, I'd make Bikes pay for their lances (currently 0 points on wargear list). Probably like 8 points or so. I'd lower the cost of spears and storm shields by 2-3 each or more. Allarus get a native 4++. Wardens gets a 5+++ instead of 6+++. That should balance all the existing units (besides Landraiders but they suck for everyone, same largely for non-Forgeworld Dreads).
For GK, I'd give them a stratagem to break the Rule of 1 for 1 CP. Psilencers become Rapid Fire 2 weapons. Psycannons get -1 AP added native and 36" range. Terminators get +1W, Paladins get WS2+ across the board and +1W. Give GK more psychic powers, specifically old Biomancy powers like Iron Arm to boost strength and something to boost toughness. Allow GoI to work on all ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword. Characters get regular Smite. Baby-Smite is still baby but doesn't reduce your range by 6" for no reason. Brother-Captain's power is changed from doubling-Smite range to a -1 to Hit aura (the Shrouding). Librarians get a 6" aura to add 6" range to Smite and baby-Smite.
Bharring wrote: I'm guessing you don't play... let's pick Necrons. If you do, just pretend I said $faction.
If a Necron player were to suggest that Monoliths were in a bad place, and suggested they halved their points, doubled their T and W, and added a couple A:10 S10 Ap-5 W:d6 guns to it, are you unqualified to comment?
I am a Necron player.
You are a bad person for mentioning Monoliths. I've already said everything there is to say about Necrons and what about all us Scarab players for not wanting to have to play Monoliths in every game.
While my army is never going to win a game because everything else is better by comparison, I continue to discuss Necrons and keep the models because of some mystifying reason I don't plan to discuss.
This is my encyclopedia of grievances with Necrons for you to read though and consider. It's five pages written in my own shorthand. After you read it, return to this thread to read my rant about some technical issue with Necron units related to comparisons with other armies based on allied detachments anyone can take. Someone will be there to say I have a point, which you can try and decipher.
Your suggestion that Monoliths might not be the worst unit ever is worthless because I am a Necron player, and I have discussed it with my fellow Necron players, and we decided Necrons are the worst army in the game. And you are a bad person for suggesting Necrons are not the absolute worst thing ever, and it's a dumb move including Necron units in any list.
Then come at me bro, because I am a Necron player.
Monoliths need a 2+ save and quantum shielding. For 250 points.
I am totally serious and not taking the piss.
I'm a necron player, so you know I'm right.
Bharring wrote: I'm guessing you don't play... let's pick Necrons. If you do, just pretend I said $faction.
If a Necron player were to suggest that Monoliths were in a bad place, and suggested they halved their points, doubled their T and W, and added a couple A:10 S10 Ap-5 W:d6 guns to it, are you unqualified to comment?
I don't know if this is directed at me, but I am personally unqualified to discuss Necrons. I don't see them in tournaments and I don't play them. I have had games with them casually, but I don't see monoliths in those games. I saw them through 7th and the start of 8th, then they fell away. It's been enough time and the codex has changed so much that i'd just read and not post.
I certainly will not google the unit and try to make an opinion on something i don't play or experience. It's disingenuous, and i'm fine bowing out of a discussion if that's the direction it goes in. As opposed to some people here, who would look up the statline and say something like "but it does d3 damage" or something asinine.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Monoliths need a 2+ save and quantum shielding. For 250 points.
I am totally serious and not taking the piss.
I'm a necron player, so you know I'm right.
That's too expensive.
They need a 2++ save, quantum shielding, and a rule that maximizes the sum of all damage in a turn to 1. Along with an exception to deep strike rules.
I've never been a French national. I'd certainly add my two cents to a conversation about if French nationals need to obey the speedlimit on the road I live on.
Bharring wrote: I've never been a French national. I'd certainly add my two cents to a conversation about if French nationals need to obey the speedlimit on the road I live on.
I think that analogy is a little off. That'd be like a Necron player discussing the core rulebook, which isn't quite what they're all sniping around.
Bharring wrote: I've never been a French national. I'd certainly add my two cents to a conversation about if French nationals need to obey the speedlimit on the road I live on.
I've never been a scientist. But i'll certainly deny climate change, having done my own research on Google.
Just because you have opinion doesn't mean it's informed or has any basis in fact. Further, not all opinions are equal.
Necrons are top tier. Their troops have -1 AP guns and also they can come back to life. See how easy that is? I can dig in and defend this position all day.
There are certainly some non $faction players with a better grasp of the army than $faction.
The first group's opinion has more value to me than the second, certainly. I don't like the very concept of it being shouted down.
The scientist who's investigated a subject persuades other experts by presenting his data and arguments, not by saying "the other guy isn't a scientist". The "other guy" should be the null hypothesis, not the opposite view.
I mean, mortars got a really hefty nerf with the rule of three. Average competitive guard list had like 9 mortar HWTs and now it's down to three. those are like 30pt units, they don't make much of a difference if you can only get 9 bases of them on the table.
The other thing about custodes though is that they're LUDICROUSLY cheap to collect by 40k standards. Your allied three captain biker doods is one kit. One fairly expensive kit, but one kit, for like 900ish points of HQs that come ready for their own detachment, and take 15 seconds to paint.
Both great points for sure. I still think mortars are setting themselves up to get whacked when they're literally the only thing IS takes and the one Heavy that gets totally filled with them every single time.
I take 3 HWTs that are 9 mortars, which don't violate the Rule of 3. It's cheap, easy, and fething simple way to rain down s4 ap0 shots on careless players, making them locked down. Otherwise, it's all HBs, all the time. Lascannons and ACs are best on vehicles, not wasted in squads with BS4. I don't see the major problem with mortars. They aren't hard to take out and they rarely live past turn 3 in my games.
Can we just say, off of everything else, the GK's got the nerf bat from pissed off fanboys who hate the lore around them? Blizzard, I mean, EA, I mean Konami, I mean Games workshop crushed them, and curb stomped them, then gave all their belongings to a race that no one cared about, or wanted, and painted them gold. I am willing to bet dollars to babies that if you were to look into the future financials of GW, they don't update the GKs ever. I see them going the way of Elysians and Squats.
Bharring wrote: I'm guessing you don't play... let's pick Necrons. If you do, just pretend I said $faction.
If a Necron player were to suggest that Monoliths were in a bad place, and suggested they halved their points, doubled their T and W, and added a couple A:10 S10 Ap-5 W:d6 guns to it, are you unqualified to comment?
I don't know if this is directed at me, but I am personally unqualified to discuss Necrons. I don't see them in tournaments and I don't play them. I have had games with them casually, but I don't see monoliths in those games. I saw them through 7th and the start of 8th, then they fell away. It's been enough time and the codex has changed so much that i'd just read and not post.
I certainly will not google the unit and try to make an opinion on something i don't play or experience. It's disingenuous, and i'm fine bowing out of a discussion if that's the direction it goes in. As opposed to some people here, who would look up the statline and say something like "but it does d3 damage" or something asinine.
I'm qualified to talk about 40K. Or do you think I can't understand what a dreadnought does now that it's a psychic dreadnought? Oh a slightly bigger dreadnought with different weapons? THIS CONFUSES ME!
You have elite marines that cost a ton and have little flexibility? Oh I know nothing about that. *blows dust off Rubrics*. By the way - you get 2 force weapon attacks with falchions on your troops, don't explode with smite, teleport for free, ATSKNF for NINETEEN points. I pay 20 for half the shots with better AP and no melee weapons what-so-ever.
*Gate of Infinity would be solid if it could affect IMPERIUM.
Cool. Deepstriking assault cents. That's what you'd get.
*Astral Aim would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units).
*Vortex of Doom would be good if it hit units within 6" of the unit rather than units within 3" of the model
*Sanctuary would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units).
*Hammerhand would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units).
*Purge Soul has a high ceiling but would be better as a simple calculus - your leadership +1 minus opponent's *unmodified* leadership, as mortal wounds. Personally I would drop this entirely and give them a mobility power like warp time. They need it. Badly. More later.
So they need GoI AND Warp Time AND they have First to the Fray? These are absurd level buffs.
You already have the brotherhood ancient and LD9 characters for Purge Soul.
2. Upgrade Rites of Banishment, it sucks. It's got no flavor at all, and in practice is rarely worth the perils risk. I would drop it entirely and replace it with Cleansing Flame. Inflicts D6 strength 6, ap-1, 1dmg hits to every unit within 12". You can't spam this by virtue of how frigging expensive a model is. Also, librarians shouldn't have this. They should have normal smite. Seriously.
You have +1 to cast and the risk is so absurdly miniscule especially since your entire unit doesn't blow up like mine. Tell me how hard you have it though.
You can't spam it because the models are expensive? 19 point strikes...
3. Stratagems should be added. There should be a way for GK to break the psychic rule of 1 with a stratagem. There should be a way for GK to auto-cast a power, without the possibility of deny. There should be a way to get significantly increased movement.
LOL. "I want to be BA and the best psychic army in the game AT THE SAME TIME!"
GK should have a reactive defense stratagem to boost invulnerable saves to 3++ for a phase, rather than paying for 1 unit at the start of your turn. Etc.
Hey something reasonable.
4. GK models need more attacks. Purifiers lost an attack in 8th, and as it stands the bog-standard GK should be base 2 attacks. Getting into melee is inordinately difficult with this army, and they're already very expensive.
So... 3A with falchions? It's less difficult than most armies with FttF and deepstrike EVERYWHERE. I can't even warp time my units after deepstrike and I have no charge rerolls other than a 150 point monster spending an ability.
5. Paladins and Terminators need a 4++. Terminators are left out in the cold. GK terminators are the worst terminators in the entire game. A 4++ wouldn't break them, and they might see a turn of manticore fire without crumbling in seconds. This plus the extra attack would help a bit. I would also make them both T5, STR5.
You do realize that a manticore is AP2 and that a 2+ gives them a 4+ save, right? Oh let me use this moment to attack you on how clearly you don't know anything about army XYZ. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO COMMENT ON THIS!
Psilencers should be 12 shots, str4, ap0, 1dmg. Psycannons should be strength 8, ap-2, 3 dmg, with a 36" range. GK melee weapons should ignore invulnerable saves - period. Most models will still get a save against them anyway as their AP isn't that great, but you won't see the annoying "anything better than AP-1 is worthless on your elite models that all have AP-2 or better." It would also make them far more fighty in an edition where everything is about stacking slowed invulnerable saves or wounds.
OK. So, BA plus best psychic army AND best heavy weapons AND completely invalidate daemons. A special weapon that is more effective than a hurricane bolter for less points. Psycannons that are dark reapers, but 3 units of them that can hide behind cover.
8. No mobility. This faction has no mobility. Gate of Infinity and Deep Strike [on everything]. That's it.
I just can't.
Contrary to what people with 0 experience with Grey Knights will tell you, this faction is in a very seriously bad place right now. Not sure why people who have never played GK have a vested interest in arguing how good they are - back to my original challenge - describe the GK lists that are beating you.
Contrary to your position your suggestions are absurd and you have no place telling other people what they should or should not post on.
Except with a base 4++ you could boost the invuln to 3++ with sanctuary, offering significant defense.
You're trying to be contrary and acting in bad faith. It's cool though, you still haven't answered my question: What grey knights lists are beating you?
EDIT - an example of you acting in bad faith is saying GKSS are 19 points. Until i can take them without a storm bolter, they're 21 points.
Marmatag wrote: Except with a base 4++ you could boost the invuln to 3++ with sanctuary, offering significant defense.
You're trying to be contrary and acting in bad faith. It's cool though, you still haven't answered my question: What grey knights lists are beating you?
EDIT - an example of you acting in bad faith is saying GKSS are 19 points. Until i can take them without a storm bolter, they're 21 points.
Oh, you got me. I forgot to add the storm bolter this time. Tell me how they're worse than rubrics.
There is one GK player here and he hasn't been around, so, couldn't tell ya. Maybe it's because of the endless droning on the internet about GK.
There are certainly some non $faction players with a better grasp of the army than $faction.
The first group's opinion has more value to me than the second, certainly. I don't like the very concept of it being shouted down.
The scientist who's investigated a subject persuades other experts by presenting his data and arguments, not by saying "the other guy isn't a scientist". The "other guy" should be the null hypothesis, not the opposite view.
For sure. In the case of Necrons, I am not going to comment because I generally like my stances on things to be informed. If i don't feel strongly one way or the other, i won't come into a thread and argue for multiple pages in die-hard fashion in favor of an opinion i've only adopted this second. It makes the forums a bad place.
And the scientific community operates fundamentally differently than these forums. There is some accountability behind your words, so people choose them more carefully. If Daedalus had to engage in a debate regarding the quality of Grey Knights which would affect his career he would approach it entirely differently (or he wouldn't and be viewed as the next Andrew Wakefield).
Marmatag wrote: Except with a base 4++ you could boost the invuln to 3++ with sanctuary, offering significant defense.
You're trying to be contrary and acting in bad faith. It's cool though, you still haven't answered my question: What grey knights lists are beating you?
EDIT - an example of you acting in bad faith is saying GKSS are 19 points. Until i can take them without a storm bolter, they're 21 points.
Oh, you got me. I forgot to add the storm bolter this time. Tell me how they're worse than rubrics.
There is one GK player here and he hasn't been around, so, couldn't tell ya. Maybe it's because of the endless droning on the internet about GK.
Are rubrics the standard by which you gauge a good unit? Tell me why it matters if they're better or worse than rubrics.
Maybe it is. Maybe there is a giant conspiracy that's being enacted across the internet to keep this faction down. Vaccines cause autism! Grey Knights are excellent!
If i don't feel strongly one way or the other, i won't come into a thread and argue for multiple pages in die-hard fashion in favor of an opinion i've only adopted this second. It makes the forums a bad place.
And the scientific community operates fundamentally differently than these forums. There is some accountability behind your words, so people choose them more carefully. If Daedalus had to engage in a debate regarding the quality of Grey Knights which would affect his career he would approach it entirely differently (or he wouldn't and be viewed as the next Andrew Wakefield).
Oh no. You can stop right there, buddy. You know what makes the forum a bad place? YOUR posts. I entered a debate in good faith.
Can you tell me how I adopted a die hard position in my early posts? Clearly you didn't read them. And you just carried on with your operation trying to squash any dissent you don't agree with.
YOU are beyond arrogant if you think I have no way of understanding how this army works.
I don't think they're terrible, but I have to defer to players with more experience with them.
One problem I have with them is the built-in cost of the nemesis weapons and then trading the weapon out for a special without reducing the base model cost. It just makes the special weapons unattractive. And having the nemesis weapons steers you away from having proper shooting units, because you're paying for the damn things all the time...
...But it's all very CP intensive. You run out fast.
They're more than capable, but I think they have a vision for the army that doesn't quite meet expectations.
Everyone having a force sword is cool, but you're literally adding 8 points to every single model.
Yea, maybe, but like I said I don't have tons of experience playing the army. I see builds that look really decent. Overall I think the need for CP to make them function well on top of the high cost makes it hard. The characters, for example, are crazy points. Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment. Does it mean they need a ton of buffs? No, but a few things would be helpful.
Like some other units that are questionably priced. Purifiers are 26 points and they're basically a strike squad, but they 7 points per model for a 3" D6 smite.
I mean, mortars got a really hefty nerf with the rule of three. Average competitive guard list had like 9 mortar HWTs and now it's down to three. those are like 30pt units, they don't make much of a difference if you can only get 9 bases of them on the table.
The other thing about custodes though is that they're LUDICROUSLY cheap to collect by 40k standards. Your allied three captain biker doods is one kit. One fairly expensive kit, but one kit, for like 900ish points of HQs that come ready for their own detachment, and take 15 seconds to paint.
Both great points for sure. I still think mortars are setting themselves up to get whacked when they're literally the only thing IS takes and the one Heavy that gets totally filled with them every single time.
IS only take them in ITC to make the squad 9 instead of 10 man. It's paying a 5-point tax to not give up the kill a 10-man or higher unit point.
What makes the forums - like so many other things - bad is, in part, extremeism.
So GKs aren't in a bad spot. I'm not seeing Daed say that they're top tier. I'm seeing him say suggestions - like the 4+ across the board for GK termies - might go to far.
To bring this back to the French national example, it's like if a French national complained that he gets pulled over too easily. And his example is going 5mph over the speedlimit on the road I live on. That would be a very valid complaint, as most traffic gets more leeway than that. So I would speak up in favor of his complaint. However, if he goes on to say he shouldn't be bound by the speed limit because <french reason>, I'm going to speak up and say that's wrong. I might not be a french national but (1) I can see it as rediculous without being one and (2) such a change *would* impact non French nationals.
(Nothing against the french, except when it's funny.)
Similarly, I think you're seeing less arguments that "GK are fine" and more that you're overreacting / they're not as bad as you think / your suggestions go too far. The sorts of conversation that require nuance to be useful.
Bharring wrote: What makes the forums - like so many other things - bad is, in part, extremeism.
So GKs aren't in a bad spot. I'm not seeing Daed say that they're top tier. I'm seeing him say suggestions - like the 4+ across the board for GK termies - might go to far.
To bring this back to the French national example, it's like if a French national complained that he gets pulled over too easily. And his example is going 5mph over the speedlimit on the road I live on. That would be a very valid complaint, as most traffic gets more leeway than that. So I would speak up in favor of his complaint. However, if he goes on to say he shouldn't be bound by the speed limit because <french reason>, I'm going to speak up and say that's wrong. I might not be a french national but (1) I can see it as rediculous without being one and (2) such a change *would* impact non French nationals.
(Nothing against the french, except when it's funny.)
Similarly, I think you're seeing less arguments that "GK are fine" and more that you're overreacting / they're not as bad as you think / your suggestions go too far. The sorts of conversation that require nuance to be useful.
I'll make it an even simpler example.
A biologist can study biomed, but still understand biochem and discuss it.
Well at the end of the day it is your prerogative to argue whatever you want.
Thousand Sons are the best army in 40k, but only slightly better than Necrons. A french national driving down my street at 35mph yelled it from the window.
Bharring wrote: What makes the forums - like so many other things - bad is, in part, extremeism.
So GKs aren't in a bad spot. I'm not seeing Daed say that they're top tier. I'm seeing him say suggestions - like the 4+ across the board for GK termies - might go to far.
To bring this back to the French national example, it's like if a French national complained that he gets pulled over too easily. And his example is going 5mph over the speedlimit on the road I live on. That would be a very valid complaint, as most traffic gets more leeway than that. So I would speak up in favor of his complaint. However, if he goes on to say he shouldn't be bound by the speed limit because <french reason>, I'm going to speak up and say that's wrong. I might not be a french national but (1) I can see it as rediculous without being one and (2) such a change *would* impact non French nationals.
(Nothing against the french, except when it's funny.)
Similarly, I think you're seeing less arguments that "GK are fine" and more that you're overreacting / they're not as bad as you think / your suggestions go too far. The sorts of conversation that require nuance to be useful.
I'll make it an even simpler example.
A biologist can study biomed, but still understand biochem and discuss it.
I can do you one simpler.
Most people can read a statline and a weapons profile. They look up points, compare the points with those of units in other Codexes, and have something reasonably intelligent to say about what they read. That's based on skills we learn in elementary school.
On the other hand, endlessly repeating yourself to flood a thread, putting down anyone that doesn't share your opinion, claiming to possess special insights beyond those of everyone else, holding up false equivalencies as evidence, droning on about how hurt your feelings are while demanding everyone acknowledge them, distorting other people's positions to frame them as personal attacks, constantly proposing changes to the rules outside the proposed rules forum, dismissing all outside observations as meaningless despite valid quantitative similarities... one only learns such skills from being the White House Press Secretary or in the Grey Knights Tactics thread on Dakka.
Bharring wrote: What makes the forums - like so many other things - bad is, in part, extremeism.
So GKs aren't in a bad spot. I'm not seeing Daed say that they're top tier. I'm seeing him say suggestions - like the 4+ across the board for GK termies - might go to far.
To bring this back to the French national example, it's like if a French national complained that he gets pulled over too easily. And his example is going 5mph over the speedlimit on the road I live on. That would be a very valid complaint, as most traffic gets more leeway than that. So I would speak up in favor of his complaint. However, if he goes on to say he shouldn't be bound by the speed limit because <french reason>, I'm going to speak up and say that's wrong. I might not be a french national but (1) I can see it as rediculous without being one and (2) such a change *would* impact non French nationals.
(Nothing against the french, except when it's funny.)
Similarly, I think you're seeing less arguments that "GK are fine" and more that you're overreacting / they're not as bad as you think / your suggestions go too far. The sorts of conversation that require nuance to be useful.
I'll make it an even simpler example.
A biologist can study biomed, but still understand biochem and discuss it.
I can do you one simpler.
Most people can read a statline and a weapons profile. They look up points, compare the points with those of units in other Codexes, and have something reasonably intelligent to say about what they read. That's based on skills we learn in elementary school.
On the other hand, endlessly repeating yourself to flood a thread, putting down anyone that doesn't share your opinion, claiming to possess special insights beyond those of everyone else, holding up false equivalencies as evidence, droning on about how hurt your feelings are while demanding everyone acknowledge them, distorting other people's positions to frame them as personal attacks, constantly proposing changes to the rules outside the proposed rules forum, dismissing all outside observations as meaningless despite valid quantitative similarities... one only learns such skills from being the White House Press Secretary or in the Grey Knights Tactics thread on Dakka.
Tech at the end of the day you are being an incredibly rude and demeaning person, Go on mods ban me for saying it. I wasn't the one making personal attacks this entire thread or in other threads that I did not report. I'm not the one who is NOT willing to leave it alone.
GK are in a bad spot. The degree at which you would move numbers around to make them better isn't something that needs to be done only to them. They are at the end of the day Space Marines and the use the Space Marine statline. Space Marines biggest failing is they can not be more effective than a fire and forget unit, because of the simple fact in 40k there is no such thing as attrition. Every new game you start fresh, there is no reason to pay for durability if the design philosophy of GW remains the same, a premium for durability and versatility.
techsoldaten wrote: On the other hand, endlessly repeating yourself to flood a thread, putting down anyone that doesn't share your opinion, claiming to possess special insights beyond those of everyone else, holding up false equivalencies as evidence, droning on about how hurt your feelings are while demanding everyone acknowledge them, distorting other people's positions to frame them as personal attacks, constantly proposing changes to the rules outside the proposed rules forum, dismissing all outside observations as meaningless despite valid quantitative similarities... one only learns such skills from being the White House Press Secretary or in the Grey Knights Tactics thread on Dakka.
Tech at the end of the day you are being an incredibly rude and demeaning person, Go on mods ban me for saying it. I wasn't the one making personal attacks this entire thread or in other threads that I did not report. I'm not the one who is NOT willing to leave it alone.
GK are in a bad spot. The degree at which you would move numbers around to make them better isn't something that needs to be done only to them. They are at the end of the day Space Marines and the use the Space Marine statline. Space Marines biggest failing is they can not be more effective than a fire and forget unit, because of the simple fact in 40k there is no such thing as attrition. Every new game you start fresh, there is no reason to pay for durability if the design philosophy of GW remains the same, a premium for durability and versatility.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nice edit.
I haven't cited a points cost besides that of three Scorpius' in anything related to Grey Knights, QuickJaeger.
How am I moving numbers around?
For that matter, what is the difference between trolling and what you are doing?
There is nothing productive to gain from you. I hope you continue to see my "rants" in the future and ignore them as you have done so wonderfully up to this point.
I think what he means is, if you lose the game with most of your models on the table, that doesn't help you in the next game. So being durable without a way to win is not really helpful. Durability doesn't win games alone.
Quickjager wrote: There is nothing productive to gain from you. I hope you continue to see my "rants" in the future and ignore them as you have done so wonderfully up to this point.
Most of our interaction has been in the Tactics thread. I've been saying that some of your posts don't actually deal with tactics, they deal with your feelings about the army. Like this one, where you say GK are in a bad spot, I'm moving numbers around, and the rules need to be changed. The challenges for me are:
- You have said the equivalent of "GK are in a bad spot" 10 times since you and I started interacting, along with 7 other people. It's fine to say something like that once or twice, it's a whole other thing when self-defeating comments flood a forum and drown out other discussion.
- I have not cited any numbers about Grey Knights on Dakka, related to point costs, performance of the army, or any other subject. I have conversations about those topics on other forums, but not here.
- Discussions about rules belong in the Proposed Rules forum. While this is not the Tactics thread, it would be appropriate to post discussions like that to PR so that others can discuss Tactics.
That's not the only time you have distorted my responses. Like in this post, where you claim my comments about Storm Ravens are intentionally insensitive to people who prefer to play Terminators. The challenges for me are:
- While I appreciate sarcasm, even when it's directed at me, it feels like you can't handle it quite as well. I honestly feel like the only way to avoid hurt feelings on your part is to ignore your posts.
- I try to be clear in what I write so that I'm not being misquoted. While I understand some confusion may occur, this seems like a very deliberate attempt to frame my comments as a personal attack.
- I should be allowed to suggest people seek alternative opinions about Grey Knights. I mean, your opinion is not the only one that matters, and I'm not sure that response was deserved.
Now, I recognize you make some valid points in your responses, and I would probably want to respond to them if they had anything to do with what we were talking about. Changing the subject to score points every time you say something you later realize is wrong is not exactly forthright. While you may have something to say about Space Marines and points, there's a better way to make that point that does not involve the other things that go on in our conversations. This is something you do commonly in discussions, and it's what I'm referring to when I talk about a rant.
Please forgive me if I took all this the wrong way. My impression is that you are a troll and have been deliberately seeking to incite conflict with me for about a month. I am not the only person who noticed and believe we should be honest and open in our discussion about how to avoid such behavior.
Maybe we can come to a gentlemen's agreement on how we will conduct ourselves in the future. Here's what I want to suggest as a way forward.
1) Limit conversations to the topic of the forum. Tactics are discussions about the actions you take to achieve a goal, anecdotes about how sad you are about Grey Knights are a better fit for the Off Topic forum. There's a place for everything on Dakka, really think about what's most appropriate.
2) If you have a new idea to share, share it! But if you are responding to something someone, try to limit the response to things that are relevant to the original point. This may help you avoid the appearance of deliberately misquoting people.
3) Try to avoid sarcasm in your posts. Your strong suit is when you are offering ideas about how to construct lists, which units to choose, what units perform better than others. It feels like you don't like it much when people respond with sarcasm.
4) I totally recognize you have all this experience with Grey Knights. Try to be more understanding that others may have their own opinions and want to share them. Some people may not have as much experience with this army, but have been playing 40k since 2nd edition and know how to read a f$*$ing datasheet. It's not rocket science, pretending it is doesn't make you look better.
5) Try to limit the number of times you say how bad Grey Knights are. Maybe once a week, or once a month? If you really feel that strongly about it, maybe just put it in your sig and save the rest of us the trouble.
Marmatag wrote: I think what he means is, if you lose the game with most of your models on the table, that doesn't help you in the next game. So being durable without a way to win is not really helpful. Durability doesn't win games alone.
If both sides have the same damage output, but one side is more durable than the other, wouldn't that mean that logically the more durable side would win in a battle of attrition?
I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
mew28 wrote: I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
Except that isn't what I said, is it? Try reading it again.
mew28 wrote: I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
Except that isn't what I said, is it? Try reading it again.
I too was under the impression thats what you were saying and now I cant recall which post you said it in. Can you clarify what the relevance of you bringing up TSons was if not to make a direct analogy to GK here?
mew28 wrote: I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
Except that isn't what I said, is it? Try reading it again.
I too was under the impression thats what you were saying and now I cant recall which post you said it in. Can you clarify what the relevance of you bringing up TSons was if not to make a direct analogy to GK here?
I think this whole fething forum needs a lesson in reading comprehension.
Tell me how they're worse than rubrics
How does that imply rubrics are good?
I'm done with this thread. You guys can flap your gums all you want.
mew28 wrote: I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
Except that isn't what I said, is it? Try reading it again.
I too was under the impression thats what you were saying and now I cant recall which post you said it in. Can you clarify what the relevance of you bringing up TSons was if not to make a direct analogy to GK here?
The whole exercise still doesn't show much that Custards are a wide margin better mathematically. On the table i'm sure there are other advantages, but I still see some interesting plays available to GK.
Like two 5 man purifiers in a rhino. Park it 11" behind the front. Let the captain charge. Next turn hope out, move, and double D6 smite. No small amount of points for that though...
And that's where Marmalade, QuickJaeger, and the others started in with their brand of debate.
I do not see where Daedalus81 made a comparison with Thousand Sons. I see many comparisons with Custodes which are backed with arguments supported by examples.
Really curious: was your impression of Daedalus81's colored in any way by the responses he received?
mew28 wrote: I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
Except that isn't what I said, is it? Try reading it again.
I too was under the impression thats what you were saying and now I cant recall which post you said it in. Can you clarify what the relevance of you bringing up TSons was if not to make a direct analogy to GK here?
The whole exercise still doesn't show much that Custards are a wide margin better mathematically. On the table i'm sure there are other advantages, but I still see some interesting plays available to GK.
Like two 5 man purifiers in a rhino. Park it 11" behind the front. Let the captain charge. Next turn hope out, move, and double D6 smite. No small amount of points for that though...
And that's where Marmalade, QuickJaeger, and the others started in with their brand of debate.
I do not see where Daedalus81 made a comparison with Thousand Sons. I see many comparisons with Custodes which are backed with arguments supported by examples.
Really curious: was your impression of Daedalus81's colored in any way by the responses he received?
Nothing "colored" my impression. This post here is what gave me the impression he was making an analogy between GK and TSons as an argument:
-D6MW bubble my ass, read the fething spell it is centered on the MODEL, not the UNIT, the NEAREST ENEMY MODEL but the wounds are on a UNIT basis. Vortex of Doom is literally a basic smite until it goes over a 12 in which case IT STILL IS A BASIC SMITE. The positioning of the enemy for this spell to hit more than 2 units would have to be so abhorrent that you likely deepstriked behind their lines in the first place.
As I stated - "Yes I am aware of the restrictions." I have Gateway. I can't use Gateway, because to be in position and to have the spell is pretty difficult. GK have an opportunity to just have the spell on a number of units and take advantage of the opportunity should it arise. Especially since they can pick from any model in the unit and not one very specific model like Thousand Sons.
I'm still at a loss to how this isn't what he is doing, but maybe I'm just comprehending it wrong.
mew28 wrote: I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
Except that isn't what I said, is it? Try reading it again.
I too was under the impression thats what you were saying and now I cant recall which post you said it in. Can you clarify what the relevance of you bringing up TSons was if not to make a direct analogy to GK here?
I think this whole fething forum needs a lesson in reading comprehension.
Tell me how they're worse than rubrics
How does that imply rubrics are good?
I'm done with this thread. You guys can flap your gums all you want.
May CA never improve your army.
Hence why before making any hard statements, I offered for you to clarify what you meant, because your post simply gave me this impression. An opportunity you decided to squander by insulting me instead, so it's whatever. Responses like this just make me think that I hit the nail on the head.
mew28 wrote: I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
Except that isn't what I said, is it? Try reading it again.
I too was under the impression thats what you were saying and now I cant recall which post you said it in. Can you clarify what the relevance of you bringing up TSons was if not to make a direct analogy to GK here?
The whole exercise still doesn't show much that Custards are a wide margin better mathematically. On the table i'm sure there are other advantages, but I still see some interesting plays available to GK.
Like two 5 man purifiers in a rhino. Park it 11" behind the front. Let the captain charge. Next turn hope out, move, and double D6 smite. No small amount of points for that though...
And that's where Marmalade, QuickJaeger, and the others started in with their brand of debate.
I do not see where Daedalus81 made a comparison with Thousand Sons. I see many comparisons with Custodes which are backed with arguments supported by examples.
Really curious: was your impression of Daedalus81's colored in any way by the responses he received?
This post here is what gave me the impression he was making an analogy between GK and TSons as an argument:
-Because spending CP on a below average unit in a army that has trouble getting CP is bad. It still takes a DS slot as well which means something else will be slogging up the board.
-D6MW bubble my ass, read the fething spell it is centered on the MODEL, not the UNIT, the NEAREST ENEMY MODEL but the wounds are on a UNIT basis. Vortex of Doom is literally a basic smite until it goes over a 12 in which case IT STILL IS A BASIC SMITE. The positioning of the enemy for this spell to hit more than 2 units would have to be so abhorrent that you likely deepstriked behind their lines in the first place.
As I stated - "Yes I am aware of the restrictions." I have Gateway. I can't use Gateway, because to be in position and to have the spell is pretty difficult. GK have an opportunity to just have the spell on a number of units and take advantage of the opportunity should it arise. Especially since they can pick from any model in the unit and not one very specific model like Thousand Sons.
I'm still at a loss to how this isn't what he is doing, but maybe I'm just comprehending it wrong.
No, you are reading that comment correctly, you are simply misrepresenting it's relevance.
It's called cherry picking and it's very dishonest.
mew28 wrote: I find it funny the rubric guy is saying "Hey my elite stye infantry is not that bad. Yours should be playable to." Except the rubrics have real durability better powers, better shoting and honestly comparable CC by time CC hits.
Except that isn't what I said, is it? Try reading it again.
I too was under the impression thats what you were saying and now I cant recall which post you said it in. Can you clarify what the relevance of you bringing up TSons was if not to make a direct analogy to GK here?
I think this whole fething forum needs a lesson in reading comprehension.
Tell me how they're worse than rubrics
How does that imply rubrics are good?
I'm done with this thread. You guys can flap your gums all you want.
May CA never improve your army.
Hence why before making any hard statements, I offered for you to clarify what you meant, because your post simply gave me this impression. An opportunity you decided to squander by insulting me instead, so it's whatever. Responses like this just make me think that I hit the nail on the head.
Well, what that makes me think about is Bolter and Chainsword, and their ban on whining about Grey Knights in the Forums.
Part of the reason for this ban, beyond the fact no one really wants to hear all the bellyaching, is the lengths people will go to make each other sound stupid.
OK, so my impression of what he said was right, but it doesn't count because "cherry picking"¿ I fail to see how it's at all dishonest to say he said that, but it seems like you've just picked a "side" to ride on and I'm sure there's more excuses coming next time that you're forced to admit you're wrong, so I'm out, this argument doesn't even concern me, was just a soft query from a neutral observer, and I was giving full party for an explanation that I was more than open to hearing. Now I'm kinda starting to believe you guys don't actually have an explanation. I wasnt trying to convince you of anything and believe me there's no way I'm sticking around to try. Can't reason with a position that someone hasn't reasoned themselves into. Have a nice day with all of that.
SHUPPET wrote: OK, so my impression of what he said was right, but it doesn't count because "cherry picking"¿
No, it's cherry picking, because out of all the points made in 20 posts, you are selecting the single item that validates your point. There are dozens of other points dealing with Custodes and that accurately represents his argument.
SHUPPET wrote: I fail to see how it's at all dishonest to say he said that, but it seems like you've just picked a "side" to ride on and I'm sure there's more excuses coming next time that you're forced to admit you're wrong, so I'm out, this argument doesn't even concern me, was just a soft query from a neutral observer, and I was giving full party for an explanation that I was more than open to hearing.
Yeah... or maybe you could provide another example to support your point. Totally possible I missed something.
SHUPPET wrote: Now I'm kinda starting to believe you guys don't actually have an explanation. I wasnt trying to convince you of anything and believe me there's no way I'm sticking around to try. Can't reason with a position that someone hasn't reasoned themselves into. Have a nice day with all of that.
Actually, I did offer an explanation and it is that you are cherry picking your points. Before that I offered links to all of his posts and a summary of each which directly contradicts what you are saying. I've also admitted I may have missed something, which is an invitation to provide more information to clarify your point.
SHUPPET wrote: OK, so my impression of what he said was right, but it doesn't count because "cherry picking"¿
No, it's cherry picking, because out of all the points made in 20 posts, you are selecting the single item that validates your point. There are dozens of other points dealing with Custodes and that accurately represents his argument.
I didn't have a point in this debate. At no point did I weigh in on GK, and at no point have I said that this was the entirety of his argument, and at no point did I say the rest of his points were no good. I wouldn't even know. I'm fresh to 8th and haven't even looked at GK yet. You're completely projecting a bunch of other gak due to the argument you are tied up in with other users.
All I ASKED was if this was not a comparison that he did use to make point, as was claimed by another user, and as I was under the impression he had done myself.
Which you later confirmed to be the case by yourself.
And no you didn't offer an explanation. You just said the words "cherry-picking" and "dishonest" which doesn't explain anything, it's just 1 word excuses.
So thanks. My impression was right. Have a nice day.
It seems that if you have no experience with how GK play in 8th, you have no dog in this fight. Sure, you can bring experience with similar armies into the conversation, but any arguments one way or the other are moot given your lack of understanding of the actual issues being discussed.
And the cherry picking argument is a red haring falicy. Of course citing specific quotes can be dismissed as cherry picking when those quotes are taken out of context, but where they taken out of context? It doesn’t seem so given the context is in regards to the issues GK currently have in 8th versus how other armies are able to deal with the same issues.
But you don't have to be a GK player to have experience with how GK play. You could see them on the other side of the table.
Beyond that, reason, consideration, and research can mean a lot. Playing GK certainly means you're more likely to have considered some GK-specific aspects, but it also means you're less likely to have fully considered the change from the perspective of other armies - both for those who have similar to either what you have or to the change you are suggesting, and for those who will face the GK.
Not having played GK is a very reasonable and sizable grain of salt, but it isn't a disqualify all thought produced from the non-GKer.
Back to the Necron Monolith example. You don't have to be a Necron player to know that the suggestion was terrible. You don't need to be a CWE player to know giving Eldrad a "2+: win the game" psykic power is a bad idea. The Necrod/CWE players might have more insight to the finer points of balance, but not a monopoly on understanding.
Except he's admitted he hasn't played against GK, either. His knowledge of the codex comes entirely from reading statlines. Is that a good basis for an informed opinion? Of course not. And this isn't some silly intellectual exercise, he's also proposed things - looking purely on paper - that are beyond awful on the table. And no one is trying to disqualify all thought, but this specific person, who is really, really uninformed.
I remember a thread that raged at the end of 7th, into early 8th, about how overpowered Necrons were. Because everyone was looking purely at the datasheets, with no experience in 8th. Do you remember it? Everyone was relating their experiences in 7th, reading the datasheets, and drawing conclusions from that in theory hammer. The analysis was centered around marines, which are in a very bad spot, but it still was an overwhelming majority conclusion that Necrons were very strong.
There seems to be this notion that because you have an opinion, it automatically has some value. This is not true.
And your example of hyperbole doesn't really hit the mark. No one is making arguments like that here.
jeffersonian000 wrote: It seems that if you have no experience with how GK play in 8th, you have no dog in this fight. Sure, you can bring experience with similar armies into the conversation, but any arguments one way or the other are moot given your lack of understanding of the actual issues being discussed.
And the cherry picking argument is a red haring falicy. Of course citing specific quotes can be dismissed as cherry picking when those quotes are taken out of context, but where they taken out of context? It doesn’t seem so given the context is in regards to the issues GK currently have in 8th versus how other armies are able to deal with the same issues.
Just saying.
SJ
Very well said, which is I think why when I gently asked for a clarification I was met with anger, accusations and insults instead of just explaining what he actually meant - seems there is no other explanation, it looks like it means exactly what it says it does.
As I recall, with the Decurion thing, it really was that bad - it's just the next two codexes did it *worse*. So it was only supreme cheese for a month. But it was about as cheesy as predicted.
Sorry let me clarify - i was referencing a thread discussing the quality of Necrons in 8th edition, before the edition was released, based on information and datasheets for warriors and other things. It involved a significant amount of mathhammer that showed how difficult it was to remove them in a points efficient way, but in the context of tools that weren't total garbage in 7th.
Bharring wrote: Yeah, any source is limited - analysis, insight, or experience.
There are certainly experienced people who don't know what they're talking about, too, on just about any subject.
This is definitely true.
I don't like to trot out gaming resumes though when it comes to these discussions, because it gets into a measurement thing rather than an actual discussion.
As long as there's at least some thought and reason behind a suggestion i'm happy to discuss it. But the things that are being proposed by the contrarians in the thread are just silly, and we're seeing half assed math hammer that starts with incorrect data sheets (i mean, really?) and also ignores tons of variables (like the benefit of Fly or being untargetable).
This thread became interesting. Don't worry Daedelus we won't get a CA change, we didn't last time.
Marmatag, people were just doing a kneejerk response to your suggestions, that was it. It was kind of hilarious seeing them say how over the top they were in such roundabout ways without actually offering their thoughts on where GK should be.
If people want this to avoid the thread from becoming a GK wish list, they can instead keep proposing New *cough* ideas on how to use the limited selection we have.
Purifiers in a Rhino is not anywhere near a good thing. Neither is +1 to deny when the biggest threat is shooting. Is it nice? Not really, we were gonna get beaten without that psychic power anyway.
I'll just double down, here's the mono-Grey knights list I would run, based on (a) what i think is good and (b) what models i have, with the knowledge that i am wholly unwilling to spend another red cent on anything marines until they aren't complete ass.
essentially move everything forward, gate of infinity draigo into the maelstrom, shunt the interceptors, and go ham alpha as best you can, with full hit rerolls.
This will get you to day 2, because you'll probably face people on day 1 that aren't super competitive and won't have ratlings/scout sentinels to completely negate the mechanics of your army. 48 assault cannon shots, 36 from the interceptors with psychic ammunition, 18 from the GMNDK with the other psybolt ammunition, 24 hurricane bolter shots. If someone lets you in range you'll be spitting out a lot of dice. Turn 2 if your ravens aren't dead, you disembark with your strike squads, shoot and charge.
Is this competitive? Nope. It is a gimmick. And gimmick lists can beat meta lists because some people won't expect them. It's not a good list, and i know it. Obviously you need to go first.
And i only built it as mono-Gk because once you start going down the allies road there are flatly better ways to spend your points than Grey Knights even in a soup scenario.
As an extension of what Quickjager was referencing - my post are mostly "Slow down, don't dismiss all non-GK players because you don't like one idea offered by one".
I wasn't commenting directly on GK viability.
(Unless this is the same "GK are worst faction" thread - that's clearly incorrect, but that's another discussion.)
Quickjager wrote: This thread became interesting. Don't worry Daedelus we won't get a CA change, we didn't last time.
Marmatag, people were just doing a kneejerk response to your suggestions, that was it. It was kind of hilarious seeing them say how over the top they were in such roundabout ways without actually offering their thoughts on where GK should be.
If people want this to avoid the thread from becoming a GK wish list, they can instead keep proposing New *cough* ideas on how to use the limited selection we have.
Purifiers in a Rhino is not anywhere near a good thing. Neither is +1 to deny when the biggest threat is shooting. Is it nice? Not really, we were gonna get beaten without that psychic power anyway.
For real, my suggestions were strong boosts but they're what the army needs to be *competitive* as a true Grey Knights army. Much of the suggestions should be given to normal marines as well, such as terminators being 5T S5. When you actually start building out a GK list, you'll see how many shortcomings they have, especially if you go monofaction.
And the best part is, it's not that hard to deny GK powers. GK are not immune to counter-psykers. As Tyranids I laugh at their powers. Yes you have +1 to cast and everyone can cast, and deny, but you still only get ONE attempt at GoI per turn. ONE attempt at astral aim. And guess what? I will be attempting to deny those. And IF you succeed in casting them, i will deny you almost 50% of the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: As an extension of what Quickjager was referencing - my post are mostly "Slow down, don't dismiss all non-GK players because you don't like one idea offered by one".
I wasn't commenting directly on GK viability.
(Unless this is the same "GK are worst faction" thread - that's clearly incorrect, but that's another discussion.)
I don't really care who is the worst faction, it's always easy to find someone who has it worse even if only 3 people in the entire world play the army monofaction. Is inquisition worse than GK? The answer might surprise you, it's "who cares?" Gk are bad regardless of whether or not inquisition is a joke.
