Anyone else disappointed with the direction Primaris are going in. I love the Primaris marines, they are true scale, the models are great, they look more realistic and less static, the only thing I don't like are the knee pads but you can't have everything. Love the look of the aggressors and the Inceptors, but I'm worried that gravis armour taking over terminators, loved terminator armour since 2nd edition and that gravis captain looks terrible, I also don't want to see inceptors taking over jump pack models. I don't want to get into the whole argument of whether Primaris are going to replace normal marines, to me its obvious they are.

Inceptors - A fast unit that isn't assaulty.

Reivers - An assaulty unit that isn't fast.



I don't know what direction Primaris is going, but if you ask me GW never has known.

If Primaris Marines replace standard marines by time it actually happens I expect the range will be considerably expanded. So far for example we have NO "vetern" primaris marine options

BrianDavion wrote:
If Primaris Marines replace standard marines by time it actually happens I expect the range will be considerably expanded. So far for example we have NO "vetern" primaris marine options

It will take about 5+ years before the completely replace marines I would think. The range is so large, I don't see them replacing them until they have everything replacement for Primaris, characters, units, vehicles etc. Its just what they replace them with the worries me, for instance I would really miss terminators, but them again I collect chaos, but still love my loyalists.

I don’t think they’re going to fully replace Classic Marines, but we’ll definitely stop seeing the old marines getting toys.

It’s not like what happened to squats in 3rd or Necron Pariahs in 5th, the Classic Marine/terminator are too recognizable to be removed completely. I feel like the Primaris will the the Loyalist Equivalents Of Cult marines.

" I feel like the Primaris will the the Loyalist Equivalents Of Cult marines."

That's the first thing that anyone has said about Primaris that makes sense.



I bought the Primaris Marines from the Dark Imperium box set on Ebay. I'm painting then as Space Wolves. That way I'll make all my painting mistakes on THEM. Then when I buy a load of classic Space Marines and paint them, they will look nice.

I think the only ways for them to move forward are to:

1) Either focus on both lines equally, ideally by removing some of the things that sperate them like lack of transports and heavy weapons and perhaps even some kind of mixed unit. This seems messy to me but it could work.
2) or combine the statline so it's just "Marines" again and start coming out with primaris versions for old units one at a time. Tacs, assault squads, devastators, all of it. I can't really see them getting rid of those units, so updating the models to look like primaris but letting old armies still function seems like the only way to get rid of small Marines without having half of the community rage quit.
3) the dream: retcon and buy back all the primaris and pretend it never happened lol...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I don't want to get into the whole argument of whether Primaris are going to replace normal marines, to me its obvious they are.

10/10

It'll eventually be a pretty comprehensive line, I wouldn't worry about it. If anything I'd be excited to be a modern marine player - knowing you have dozens of kits coming over the next few years. Genuinely something new and interesting to look forward to.

 Elbows wrote:
It'll eventually be a pretty comprehensive line, I wouldn't worry about it. If anything I'd be excited to be a modern marine player - knowing you have dozens of kits coming over the next few years. Genuinely something new and interesting to look forward to.

this is doubly true when you consider what the alternative is. for all the complaining people liked to do about things like centurions, really we'd reached a point where GW only had a few options to expand the Marines range. Uber specialized things thtat likely won't sell very well, marines taken to 11, resculpts of stuff we already had (and remember they did the basic marine types not that long ago so they'd be resculpting things like I dunno.. maybe the rhino.. and that'd be a best case scenerio))

Primaris Marines allow them to do new things with space marines, maybe shift the apperance a tad, well not killing the golden goose

The point above is true, marines had everything they needed for a while, and the expansions to the line felt forced. I dont think I've ever even seen a Hunter/Stalker on the table, and Flyers other than a Storm Raven only incredibly rarely.

The current Terminator kit needs help though.

BrianDavion wrote:

this is doubly true when you consider what the alternative is. for all the complaining people liked to do about things like centurions, really we'd reached a point where GW only had a few options to expand the Marines range.

They had a few options, though. Like releasing plastic versions of the slowly disappearing 'Fine'cast models, and recutting plastic kits to actually include all of their options.

Or, crazy I know, but they could have released Xenos stuff instead...

Personally I am not really a fan of the Primaris Marines, imo the old marines looked better, so I hope the old Marines and Terminators, however I'm not going to criticize until the whole sort of plan has unfolded.

I prefer the scale/proportions of the primaris in relation to other factions, but the armor is too sleek. Not gothic and gritty enough. The helmets with the grill and almost vader like mouth were iconic to me. And by bringing the maximus style helmet look as a norm into the 40k era you kind of take away from the visual cues that made the heresy era distinct. Overall i'm not happy with the lore and whatever 40k changes they've been doing the past couple years. Luckily Necromunda has been modernized, but there hasn't been any changes I felt were questionable or close to being terrible.

There also isn't any real reason to replace the current marine range. The models are still great, the tactical squad did get an update some years back and the detail is crisp. Marines also sell well enough I don't see why they would just axe them anytime soon. Maybe this will be something to worry about in 5 -10 years.

ShadowPug wrote:
Personally I am not really a fan of the Primaris Marines, imo the old marines looked better, so I hope the old Marines and Terminators, however I'm not going to criticize until the whole sort of plan has unfolded.

I will! Aggressors and Inceptors look poopy.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The point above is true, marines had everything they needed for a while, and the expansions to the line felt forced. I dont think I've ever even seen a Hunter/Stalker on the table, and Flyers other than a Storm Raven only incredibly rarely.

The current Terminator kit needs help though.

they can't do an aweful lot with the current terminators because being able to mix and matcha bit more is kind of the space wolves and dark angels schtick. so sort of giving termies some new heavy weapon or something.. yeaaah.. not much they can do with the kit

The problem is that instead of just making Primaris the new standard and making all marines share the same statline, regardless of scale, they had to differentiate them. And now they have to keep developing the Primaris Marines as separate entities to justify their own terrible marketing idea, when the clear goal from the beginning was that they were meant to phase out the stuntymarines.

So GW's stuck holding the ball because they wanted to take the piss about Primaris being this unique and separate thing when we all know exactly what they're meant to be, and the Primaris marines themselves are stuck being developed with units that don't have much of a niche in the face of an already over-developed Space Marine range, or are left with undeveloped options so that GW can pretend that old marines still matter for now. Unfortunately, the longer GW waits to consolidate the two ranges into one, the bigger this problem ends up becoming, as there end up inevitably being more elements that need consolidation.

Simply put, GW really doesn't have much of a direction in mind for Primaris Marines. Gorgeous and much needed models when you consider how buggered regular marines have been by scale creep (and in general their basic frame's ability to keep up with GW's own sculpting technology), but from a fluff, game design, and marketing perspective, GW handled things in the worst way possible.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The point above is true, marines had everything they needed for a while, and the expansions to the line felt forced. I dont think I've ever even seen a Hunter/Stalker on the table, and Flyers other than a Storm Raven only incredibly rarely.

The current Terminator kit needs help though.

they can't do an aweful lot with the current terminators because being able to mix and matcha bit more is kind of the space wolves and dark angels schtick. so sort of giving termies some new heavy weapon or something.. yeaaah.. not much they can do with the kit

They dont need more equipment, they just need better sculpting and posing. The current tactical terminator kit is really dissapointing.

I mean, it was good well over a decade ago. I'm not sure when the kit came out, but I'm pretty sure it's got to be close to 15 years old now. They were one of those boxes that came out after GW had established some really solid plastic production, but before they started getting real artful about it.

Not only are they really poorly dated, but the mold slippage as time has gone on really shows.

 Fafnir wrote:
The problem is that instead of just making Primaris the new standard and making all marines share the same statline, regardless of scale, they had to differentiate them. And now they have to keep developing the Primaris Marines as separate entities to justify their own terrible marketing idea, when the clear goal from the beginning was that they were meant to phase out the stuntymarines.

So GW's stuck holding the ball because they wanted to take the piss about Primaris being this unique and separate thing when we all know exactly what they're meant to be, and the Primaris marines themselves are stuck being developed with units that don't have much of a niche in the face of an already over-developed Space Marine range, or are left with undeveloped options so that GW can pretend that old marines still matter for now. Unfortunately, the longer GW waits to consolidate the two ranges into one, the bigger this problem ends up becoming, as there end up inevitably being more elements that need consolidation.

Simply put, GW really doesn't have much of a direction in mind for Primaris Marines. Gorgeous and much needed models when you consider how buggered regular marines have been by scale creep (and in general their basic frame's ability to keep up with GW's own sculpting technology), but from a fluff, game design, and marketing perspective, GW handled things in the worst way possible.

Yeah I wish they just gave us true scale marines, instead of the Primaris, which has been terrible lore, plus if they wanted to give them a new look all they had to do was change the armour and addet new units rather than writing contrived lore with Cawl etc.

I guess I might in the 'limited?' few that actual want to see Primaris replace old marines or get their version of older marine units, like aggressor's getting storm shields and melee weapons, or primaris on bikes or Primaris rhinos (which is needed as nothing else beside repulsor can transport them).
As I just personally prefer the whole look to them then normal marines.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Anyone else disappointed with the direction Primaris are going in. I love the Primaris marines, they are true scale, the models are great, they look more realistic and less static, the only thing I don't like are the knee pads but you can't have everything. Love the look of the aggressors and the Inceptors, but I'm worried that gravis armour taking over terminators, loved terminator armour since 2nd edition and that gravis captain looks terrible, I also don't want to see inceptors taking over jump pack models. I don't want to get into the whole argument of whether Primaris are going to replace normal marines, to me its obvious they are.

Too bad they aren't true scale for original marines so for example you couldn't use them to make true scale marines for 30k. They are too big.

tneva82 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Anyone else disappointed with the direction Primaris are going in. I love the Primaris marines, they are true scale, the models are great, they look more realistic and less static, the only thing I don't like are the knee pads but you can't have everything. Love the look of the aggressors and the Inceptors, but I'm worried that gravis armour taking over terminators, loved terminator armour since 2nd edition and that gravis captain looks terrible, I also don't want to see inceptors taking over jump pack models. I don't want to get into the whole argument of whether Primaris are going to replace normal marines, to me its obvious they are.

Too bad they aren't true scale for original marines so for example you couldn't use them to make true scale marines for 30k. They are too big.

Compared to every other infantry unit, the Primaris are the scale that original marines always should have been. The bit in the fluff about them being slightly taller than normal marines is just to justify people who might be otherwise miffed about running mixed forces. They absolutely would be true scale for 30k.

They are too big. Look at custodians. They are about size of primaris. Custodians are supposed to be to marines what marines are to humans.

Cadians are prime offenders in being too big. But primaris=oversized to be true scale original marines. If you try to use them for 30k you are oversizing your marines.

I actually really like Gravis armour, love the look of Inceptors especially.

But like the OP, I'm also a big Terminator fan. I'm not worried though, because I don't see Gravis as a Primaris replacement for Terminators. They do very different jobs. Gravis is essentially a powered rig for mounting specialised equipment - be that firepower or jet propulsion, and I'm sure we'll see it used in other ways.

Terminators are for elite tactical combat. I see this as quite a different role.

Combined with that, the look of Terminators is very iconic and I can't see GW ditching that. They've preserved the classic marine look in an updated way with the Mk X armour, and I think we are yet to see the next evolution of Terminator armour. I believe we will see Primaris Terminators eventually, upscaled and reproportioned but with the same iconic look.

tneva82 wrote:
They are too big. Look at custodians. They are about size of primaris. Custodians are supposed to be to marines what marines are to humans.

Cadians are prime offenders in being too big. But primaris=oversized to be true scale original marines. If you try to use them for 30k you are oversizing your marines.

Cadians... and all human models GW currently produces. Yeah, Primaris scale is fine, they're properly sized compared to GW's normal human models and that's what most people care about. If Custodes are supposed to be bigger, then it is them who are too small. Though I'm not sure they need to be bigger than Marines, I don't remember their codex saying that they are.

tneva82 wrote:
They are too big. Look at custodians. They are about size of primaris. Custodians are supposed to be to marines what marines are to humans.

Cadians are prime offenders in being too big. But primaris=oversized to be true scale original marines. If you try to use them for 30k you are oversizing your marines.

Nah .. Custodes are about human-sized



I'd be hilarious doing a Custodes army with the old minis actually

The models are great but the fluff is woeful.

If GW just said 'we are phasing out the old range and updating it' I would be more on board with it.

I think GW got really hyped and bought a bit too much into their own grox gak and when the community didn't respond the way they wanted us to the Primaris release stalled due to uncertainty on profitability.

Just my 2p.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
The models are great but the fluff is woeful.

If GW just said 'we are phasing out the old range and updating it' I would be more on board with it.

I think GW got really hyped and bought a bit too much into their own grox gak and when the community didn't respond the way they wanted us to the Primaris release stalled due to uncertainty on profitability.

Just my 2p.

What stalled?

GW was releasing rumour pics for the current Soul Wars Age of Sigmar stuff from before Dark Imperium / 8th Ed. hit the stores.

Whatever GW is releasing now for 40K was planned and in production before the community even knew there was such a thing as a "Primaris".

If GW "stalls"/rolls-back the Primaris production based on the first year of sales, we won't actually see evidence of that in their releases until late 2019 or more likely 2020

The biggest issue I have with primaris (and even before them with the Forgeworld heresy variants of a lot of stuff) is that GW seems to be actively trying to shift away from anything that doesn't strictly follow the "iconic" (cough cough copyrightable) strict rigid aesthetic of "this is a space marine. This is what a space marine looks like. All space marine things must look like this."

Look at old school scouts, terminators, dreadnoughts, and marines. Three totally different, and individually interesting aesthetics.

Now look at Primaris marines, aggressors, reivers, cataphract termies, and contemptor dreads.They all look like different sizes of space marine with the same helmets, similar proportions, and in a lot of cases that gets VERY goofy (centurions, lol.)

Just feels like they were designed more by a legal committee than an artist.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
The models are great but the fluff is woeful.

If GW just said 'we are phasing out the old range and updating it' I would be more on board with it.

I think GW got really hyped and bought a bit too much into their own grox gak and when the community didn't respond the way they wanted us to the Primaris release stalled due to uncertainty on profitability.

Just my 2p.

What stalled?

GW was releasing rumour pics for the current Soul Wars Age of Sigmar stuff from before Dark Imperium / 8th Ed. hit the stores.

Whatever GW is releasing now for 40K was planned and in production before the community even knew there was such a thing as a "Primaris".

If GW "stalls"/rolls-back the Primaris production based on the first year of sales, we won't actually see evidence of that in their releases until late 2019 or more likely 2020

If I remember correctly, apologies but I don't have a citation to hand, GW themselves stated that Primaris uptake was not meeting their expectations.

As an aside, that super heavy for them done by FW is a monstrosity. Even the Taurox is acceptable when put side by side to it.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

If I remember correctly, apologies but I don't have a citation to hand, GW themselves stated that Primaris uptake was not meeting their expectations.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything verified to that effect. All I've seen that could indicate how they're performing is the rocketing GW stock.

IF there are issues with Primaris kit sales, one factor might be the prevalence of easy build equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if the £25 5-man intercessor kit doesn't sell too well when you can get the guys from Dark Imperium on eBay for half that. Same deal with there being a £25 and £40 Redemptor kit. The more expensive one is frankly an incredible kit, but still that price difference...

Basically them undercutting themselves I could easily see as being more of an issue than any negative reaction to the models.

Stux wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

If I remember correctly, apologies but I don't have a citation to hand, GW themselves stated that Primaris uptake was not meeting their expectations.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything verified to that effect. All I've seen that could indicate how they're performing is the rocketing GW stock.

IF there are issues with Primaris kit sales, one factor might be the prevalence of easy build equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if the £25 5-man intercessor kit doesn't sell too well when you can get the guys from Dark Imperium on eBay for half that. Same deal with there being a £25 and £40 Redemptor kit. The more expensive one is frankly an incredible kit, but still that price difference...

Basically them undercutting themselves I could easily see as being more of an issue than any negative reaction to the models.

AoS and 8th edition are what are more likely to be driving the sales/earnings more than the what 10 primaris kits.
By all accounts 8th edition has seen player numbers rise substantially compaired to previous editions. AoS had a bad launch followed by better performance once the hurt for old world died down and the general's handbooks dropped.

But yeah the multiple choice for the same unit is another thing that makes it look like GW hasn't been clear with it's design intent for primaris marines.

As models they look nice as another unit in the marine codex they are rather meh. Fluff wise they are a disaster, Belisarious Cawl the 40k imperial answer to a wizard did it.

Ice_can wrote:

Stux wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

If I remember correctly, apologies but I don't have a citation to hand, GW themselves stated that Primaris uptake was not meeting their expectations.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything verified to that effect. All I've seen that could indicate how they're performing is the rocketing GW stock.

IF there are issues with Primaris kit sales, one factor might be the prevalence of easy build equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if the £25 5-man intercessor kit doesn't sell too well when you can get the guys from Dark Imperium on eBay for half that. Same deal with there being a £25 and £40 Redemptor kit. The more expensive one is frankly an incredible kit, but still that price difference...

Basically them undercutting themselves I could easily see as being more of an issue than any negative reaction to the models.

AoS and 8th edition are what are more likely to be driving the sales/earnings more than the what 10 primaris kits.
By all accounts 8th edition has seen player numbers rise substantially compaired to previous editions. AoS had a bad launch followed by better performance once the hurt for old world died down and the general's handbooks dropped.

But yeah the multiple choice for the same unit is another thing that makes it look like GW hasn't been clear with it's design intent for primaris marines.

As models they look nice as another unit in the marine codex they are rather meh. Fluff wise they are a disaster, Belisarious Cawl the 40k imperial answer to a wizard did it.

Sure, we can't say from stock rising that Primaris are doing well. But if it's only data we have, we can probably infer they aren't doing too terribly with how much attention GW has been giving them.

Also I feel there is a bit too much stock put on the fluff of Primaris with regards to how it might affect sales. Sure there are several people on here pretty mad about it, but honestly most people I speak either think it's fine, or just don't care about the fluff. The old guard who just want to play with their old scale marines and don't want to buy much are generally most down on it, whereas the newer players who are collecting an army from scratch don't seem phased at all by it. And I imagine the latter group are spending the most money here.

I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

'The Primaris Heresy' does have a certain ring to it

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

I'm hoping not.

Anyways, a big problem with the Primaris stuff is that it's similar to 30k: units are either too specialized or too generalized to really have a place, especially when those specialized units can't really perform their role.

Reivers are a good example of this--LD debuffing units that aren't great at assault and have such a small range for their LD debuff that they have to assault.
Inceptors are the opposite of this--they're a mid/short range gunfighter unit with high mobility that can take some mean weapons.

I think GW needs to pick one of the all primaris chapters to be their primaris poster boys (i.e. The ultramarine of primaris) and to push the standalone army aspect. Start with Black Library and perhaps an upgrade sprue. When they are ready for the next round of primaris models have them be the main chapter in the codex.

To me, the mix of big and little marines looks weird and gamey.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

for those claiming the Primaris fluff is bad I have a question... What fluff? Primaris Marines are still pretty new and ave only appered in what 2 novels thus far? Not sure we can truely judge weather it's bad or not yet. we should give GW some time to develop this first

The proplem with Primaris at the moment is that they do not seem to have any direction each unit is going in: the assult versions of most guns don't have any benefit other than advance-and fire and 8 more inches of 2 shots(And the assault plasma is just bad, needing supercharge to be at normal str with double damage is going to lose models quickly, especially while advancing).

Heavy variants are mediocre, gaining barely any range and losing even the potential forba second shot(the plasma isn't as bad but still needs to supercharge for the extra damage)

Inceptors fast moving-close shooting is alright with the assault bolter but the plasma exterminater still costs too much for what is invariably less shots.

Aggressor rules are just all over the place.

Rievers seem ok, but as mentiined earlier are a bit slow for assault troops.

All the characters are fine, many are straight upgrades to the normal versions. Except for the gravis armour captain, way to slow for the melee he so desperately wants to be in and even then it will be rare that you don't use the master-crafted sword.

The vehicles suffer from too many guns; this isn't the worst, but it does make them very expensive points-wise.

Some future fixes to all of the above issues would be fairly simple:
1) change the wargear options from All models in the unit to any models in the unit. This is the edition where models can mostly act independently of the unit as a whole(moving and targeting) locking a whole unit into the same guns does not make any sense.
2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

You're right, sorry I'll revise to the current GW narrative path.

Robute guillimans heroic primaris marines continue to beat all the baddies of the galaxy every saturday at 9!

Rotigus and the bad sloppity bilepiper have come up with a new plan to make everyone into zombies! Oh no! Wait, here comes Robute gilliman and his pals, Cawl and don't forget Saint Celestine (because girls can be sidekicks heroes too!

Trazyn the Skeltal has another wacky scheme to kidnap our heroes and steal all the important artifacts! Belarius Carl is going to have to figure out a super-smart solution to get out of this jam!

The blood angels are in real trouble this time as the tyranids are attacking baal! Boom! Crash! The baddies almost win, but then Robert Gilliam comes in to save the day with his primaris ultra-heroes!

Tune in next time kids to ADVENTURES IN WARHAMMER oh god its not even a joke anymore

They are going nowhere with as common as Dam 2 weapons are.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
...2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Word. Each unit at present does one thing, some of them do the one thing well and some don't. Bringing in the option to build a squad to do different things the way Space Marines should would be a huge improvement.

(The Deathwatch make-all-the-rifles-incredibly-good method seems to be a brute-force solution that doesn't really help in the long run since everyone's still horribly inflexible and short on anti-vehicle options; an effective melee option (two 4+-to-hit powerfist attacks walking 5" a turn or three S4/AP-/D1 attacks don't scare anything in melee) might help, too.)

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

You're right, sorry I'll revise to the current GW narrative path.

Robute guillimans heroic primaris marines continue to beat all the baddies of the galaxy every saturday at 9!

Rotigus and the bad sloppity bilepiper have come up with a new plan to make everyone into zombies! Oh no! Wait, here comes Robute gilliman and his pals, Cawl and don't forget Saint Celestine (because girls can be sidekicks heroes too!

Trazyn the Skeltal has another wacky scheme to kidnap our heroes and steal all the important artifacts! Belarius Carl is going to have to figure out a super-smart solution to get out of this jam!

The blood angels are in real trouble this time as the tyranids are attacking baal! Boom! Crash! The baddies almost win, but then Robert Gilliam comes in to save the day with his primaris ultra-heroes!

Tune in next time kids to ADVENTURES IN WARHAMMER oh god its not even a joke anymore

except this isn't any differant from how 40k has ALWAYS been.

the primaris Marines aren't winning great battles in a setting where previously we where told "nope space marines never win" In the case of the blood angels. the Blood Angels ahd already WON by time Gulliman showed up. The only thing Gulliman did was help clean up and gift the Blood Angels Primaris Marines. Did you think they should have killed the blood angels off? go on and tell a blood angel player you think they should have just gotten ridda their army. please.

The FAQ already told us that.

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

You're right, sorry I'll revise to the current GW narrative path.

Robute guillimans heroic primaris marines continue to beat all the baddies of the galaxy every saturday at 9!

Rotigus and the bad sloppity bilepiper have come up with a new plan to make everyone into zombies! Oh no! Wait, here comes Robute gilliman and his pals, Cawl and don't forget Saint Celestine (because girls can be sidekicks heroes too!

Trazyn the Skeltal has another wacky scheme to kidnap our heroes and steal all the important artifacts! Belarius Carl is going to have to figure out a super-smart solution to get out of this jam!

The blood angels are in real trouble this time as the tyranids are attacking baal! Boom! Crash! The baddies almost win, but then Robert Gilliam comes in to save the day with his primaris ultra-heroes!

Tune in next time kids to ADVENTURES IN WARHAMMER oh god its not even a joke anymore

except this isn't any differant from how 40k has ALWAYS been.

the primaris Marines aren't winning great battles in a setting where previously we where told "nope space marines never win" In the case of the blood angels. the Blood Angels ahd already WON by time Gulliman showed up. The only thing Gulliman did was help clean up and gift the Blood Angels Primaris Marines. Did you think they should have killed the blood angels off? go on and tell a blood angel player you think they should have just gotten ridda their army. please.

I was just about to say insert Martel Eeyore fatalism joke here about blood angels already being dead but I've been beaten to the punch.

GW took aim at Nids and killed BA instead. Glorious.

Martel732 wrote:
The FAQ already told us that.

Somehow I knew you where going to respond with that

except that's not the case Martel. Your army may or may not be ineffective, but it still exists as a force, you can count on new models, new codices etc. Now imagine if GW decided to wipe out the sons of Sanguinious and said "yeah they're dead so we're not putting out any special rules for them. use the index for support for them, but no Primaris Marines and new future updates" that'd be a biiig differance and I imagine it'd be a bit of a turn off.

Maybe if a given fluff showdown is such an obvious foregone conclusion that theres absolutely no tension in it whatsoever and your fanbase is just going to turn it into a huge joke, it's a better idea to come up with a different narrative.

Right, death of Superman #124565, Failbaddon's Black Crusades, Eldar Avatar Fight With Big Hero Character, etc?

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The FAQ already told us that.

Somehow I knew you where going to respond with that

except that's not the case Martel. Your army may or may not be ineffective, but it still exists as a force, you can count on new models, new codices etc. Now imagine if GW decided to wipe out the sons of Sanguinious and said "yeah they're dead so we're not putting out any special rules for them. use the index for support for them, but no Primaris Marines and new future updates" that'd be a biiig differance and I imagine it'd be a bit of a turn off.

That would actually be pretty liberating.

the_scotsman wrote:
Maybe if a given fluff showdown is such an obvious foregone conclusion that theres absolutely no tension in it whatsoever and your fanbase is just going to turn it into a huge joke, it's a better idea to come up with a different narrative.

Right, death of Superman #124565, Failbaddon's Black Crusades, Eldar Avatar Fight With Big Hero Character, etc?

There's a difference between wanting some of the worst of what GW had done, and wanting what you suggest, which, in my opinion, does a disservice to the potential of Primaris lore.

I don't want generic "Guilliman beats everything, wowza!" (even though, strategically, and aphysically as a Primarch, there's very little that should be able to match him, barring other Primarchs/Daemon Lords), or "Emperor teleports Guilliman and there's ANOTHER Imperial civil war!".

I like neither.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
...2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Word. Each unit at present does one thing, some of them do the one thing well and some don't. Bringing in the option to build a squad to do different things the way Space Marines should would be a huge improvement.

(The Deathwatch make-all-the-rifles-incredibly-good method seems to be a brute-force solution that doesn't really help in the long run since everyone's still horribly inflexible and short on anti-vehicle options; an effective melee option (two 4+-to-hit powerfist attacks walking 5" a turn or three S4/AP-/D1 attacks don't scare anything in melee) might help, too.)

*Laughs in Aspect Warrior*

the_scotsman wrote:
Maybe if a given fluff showdown is such an obvious foregone conclusion that theres absolutely no tension in it whatsoever and your fanbase is just going to turn it into a huge joke, it's a better idea to come up with a different narrative.

Right, death of Superman #124565, Failbaddon's Black Crusades, Eldar Avatar Fight With Big Hero Character, etc?

The main problem with the 40k Fanbase is they don't know the background, just the jokes and the memes. Just take a look in the 40k background forum and start counting people with bad or wrong information.

And this is a setting for a game. There can't be tension, because the status quo needs to stay more or less the same. So any narrative you come up with is doomed to fail for the handful of people who actually read it.

Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Their fluff doesn't matter, as long as their crunch is terrible.

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Noooooope. People would be upset regardless

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
...2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Word. Each unit at present does one thing, some of them do the one thing well and some don't. Bringing in the option to build a squad to do different things the way Space Marines should would be a huge improvement.

(The Deathwatch make-all-the-rifles-incredibly-good method seems to be a brute-force solution that doesn't really help in the long run since everyone's still horribly inflexible and short on anti-vehicle options; an effective melee option (two 4+-to-hit powerfist attacks walking 5" a turn or three S4/AP-/D1 attacks don't scare anything in melee) might help, too.)

*Laughs in Aspect Warrior*

Even aspect warriors have more tactical flexibility than primaris marines, outside of Dire Avengers and Swooping hawks.

Martel732 wrote:
Their fluff doesn't matter, as long as their crunch is terrible.

I can't decide if their crunch is terrible because they used the base marine stats for primaris and then built this weird double teir codex that just doesn't work or they created the wierd codex because they couldn't decide if marines should be 1 or 2 wounds and decided to take both options.

They published the disintegrator. None of that matters anymore. It melts all marines. It turns out marines needed to be 3 wounds.

Martel732 wrote:
They published the disintegrator. None of that matters anymore. It melts all marines. It turns out marines needed to be 3 wounds.

Don't forget plasma spam being the answer to everything. Primaris get caught in the crossfire of the arms race.

So what if it is one big troll?
They become unstable since a Mechanicus was trying to make use of a science only the Emperor knew, plus a few liberties taken here or there.
They all turn on the Empire and everyone.
Which was Cawl's plan all along for the rise of the Cult of the Dragon and he was using the Guardians of the Dragon's DNA to enhance the Primaris marines he was developing.
The time is ripe with all the chaos to bring the one and true god to glory, all hail Mag'ladroth (Void Dragon) sallying forth from Noctis Labyrinthus!
It took some time to "corrupt" the "Lords Dragon" but they too fell in line as they saw how much the warp has taken over reality and with it, the passing of Adept Dalia.
Especially the Necrons can feel his power only to be swept away from his might!

(This scenario is all made up but all the "facts" of names and groups are true to mechanicus fiction).

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Noooooope. People would be upset regardless

Bingo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
...2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Word. Each unit at present does one thing, some of them do the one thing well and some don't. Bringing in the option to build a squad to do different things the way Space Marines should would be a huge improvement.

(The Deathwatch make-all-the-rifles-incredibly-good method seems to be a brute-force solution that doesn't really help in the long run since everyone's still horribly inflexible and short on anti-vehicle options; an effective melee option (two 4+-to-hit powerfist attacks walking 5" a turn or three S4/AP-/D1 attacks don't scare anything in melee) might help, too.)

*Laughs in Aspect Warrior*

Even aspect warriors have more tactical flexibility than primaris marines, outside of Dire Avengers and Swooping hawks.

Primaris don't need customization. The Deathwatch codex partially proved this with Intercessors. You make them offensively viable and suddenly you're not AS concerned about Multi-Damage weapons, and Raven Guard Aggressors certainly don't need any help and are arguably one of the better glass cannons available. Dark Angels Hellblasters are pretty good just for the Strategem alone. If you want Plasma Guns in your Intercessor squads, Deathwatch has you covered.

What customization do you really need in the end? Yeah I'd like to take a Power Fist on an Intercessor Sergeant, but the truth is I'll never take it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They published the disintegrator. None of that matters anymore. It melts all marines. It turns out marines needed to be 3 wounds.

Don't forget plasma spam being the answer to everything. Primaris get caught in the crossfire of the arms race.

Which is the fault of Dark Eldar, Scions, and such. This isn't the situation where you can blame Tactical Marines only appearing bad because of Power creep as they were always bad.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Anyone else disappointed with the direction Primaris are going in. I love the Primaris marines, they are true scale, the models are great, they look more realistic and less static, the only thing I don't like are the knee pads but you can't have everything. Love the look of the aggressors and the Inceptors, but I'm worried that gravis armour taking over terminators, loved terminator armour since 2nd edition and that gravis captain looks terrible, I also don't want to see inceptors taking over jump pack models. I don't want to get into the whole argument of whether Primaris are going to replace normal marines, to me its obvious they are.

I'm basically right with you on all of this, in terms of loving the new models, but worrying that old models like Rhinos or jump packs could be abandoned in favor of what are, objectively, less-good designs.

I do differ on the pace and totality with which everyone thinks Primaris are meant to replace "regular" space marines though. GW tends to get in a rut, where one army sells so much that they want to release new "sure sales" items for that army. And eventually, that army has such an embarrassment of riches that they don't know what to do. In Age of Sigmar, when this has happened, they've "opened a new warrior chamber" and suddenly, presto, Stormcast on dragons. Then they opened another chamber, and now there's Stormcasts on puma-chickens with boltpistols. Now they're opening yet another chamber, and now there's wizards and warmachines and puma-dragons. (somebody should tell Sigmar he can't solve all of his problems by opening another warrior chamber)

And, when each one roles out, GW promotes the heck out of them and depicts them a ton in the books. But, at least as far as I can tell, they have no intention for Stormcast on puma-dragons to replace Stormcast on boring old dragons, or cutty-axe-with-robe Stormcast to replace slammy-hammer-with-no-robe Stormcast. They just wanted more of the best selling army to sell.

To that end, I'm assuming Primaris are just another warrior chamber they've opened, in hope of selling something new to marine players who already have everything. It's just that their rules are so middling that few can find a tactical reason to field them over the mundane but flexible old marines.

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Noooooope. People would be upset regardless

Oh GW knew the amount of salt that people having to buy their entire marine army all over again would cause, which is why they didn't do it. I was saying that it was the cleanest solution no matter how many marine players were upset.

The current tactical marine statline doesn't work in 8th edition. Marines should have the current parimaris statline (appropriately pointed of course) and primaris marines shouldn't exist.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Maybe if a given fluff showdown is such an obvious foregone conclusion that theres absolutely no tension in it whatsoever and your fanbase is just going to turn it into a huge joke, it's a better idea to come up with a different narrative.

Right, death of Superman #124565, Failbaddon's Black Crusades, Eldar Avatar Fight With Big Hero Character, etc?

The main problem with the 40k Fanbase is they don't know the background, just the jokes and the memes. Just take a look in the 40k background forum and start counting people with bad or wrong information.

And this is a setting for a game. There can't be tension, because the status quo needs to stay more or less the same. So any narrative you come up with is doomed to fail for the handful of people who actually read it.

I agree. Heck most of the people who claim the Primaris Lore "sucks" proably don't know anything more then the cliff notes version. I mean for god's sake I've actually seen people suggest TTS is a good source to learn the setting! If TTS is your primary source for all things 40k you might be in trouble given it's something of a parody that pushes some of the more annoying memes out there

Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

Primaris marines are what got me to start collecting marines, and I've been playing 40k since 2nd edition.

Their line isn't fully fleshed out as GW want them to be fielded alongside regular marines. They are loyalist cult marine equivalent. A full Primaris force can be fielded, but it will struggle as they don't have a big enough tool box.

As time goes on I think we will see a lot more Primaris releases, (hopefully a small transport and a bike squad) as the regular marines had reached a point where there was nothing else that could be done with their bloated line. I honestly think that the dreadful centurion models show this and that GW are all too aware of how idiotic they are.

Hence why we now have the Primaris Marines.

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

That's not true. The Space Marine Heroes kits that have come out recently (albeit limited to Japan) were released after Primaris and the second wave is Terminators and is coming soon.

There haven't been any general release regular Space Marine kits since Primaris. But then again, there haven't been any Primaris kits short of the two Lieutenant kits for the Angels, Primaris Upgrade kits, and boxes with Primaris Upgrade kits. There probably won't be any Primaris kits for some time. Though one has to wonder what will happen once Space Wolves hit. No Space Marines for an extended period of time is pretty unusual. Perhaps an expansion to the codex with more kits in it is a possibility.

Ok fair enough, though I believe Heroes aren't actually produced by GW. Rather they're produced under licence by another manufacturer, which is why they are exclusive to Japan.

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

Like what though? You won't get other Armor MKs until another Horus Heresy board game, and there aren't many units you can add without some people throwing a hissy fit like they did with Centurions (which honestly weren't bad and needed minimum work to look good).

Tell me: what kit?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

Like what though? You won't get other Armor MKs until another Horus Heresy board game, and there aren't many units you can add without some people throwing a hissy fit like they did with Centurions (which honestly weren't bad and needed minimum work to look good).

Tell me: what kit?

That's exactly my point though. Old style marines are played out. GW have to release new kits constantly to remain viable as a miniatures company, and have to encourage people to buy those new kits. There's tons of scope to expand on Primaris though, so that's what Marines will be about for the next decade or something until they need something new again.

Just off the top of my head for obvious Primaris kits still to come:

Characters:
Inceptor captain
Inceptor chaplain
Inceptor librarian
Gravis chaplain
Gravis librarian

Infantry:
Melee Inceptors (I'm imagining power lances and storm shields, for jet pack jousting, but that is unlikely!)
Hellblasters with non-plasma weapons (tons of scope here)
Reivers with full melee/power weapon loadout

Vehicles:
Primaris APC
Primaris drop pod
Alternate Redemptors eh Ironclad, Mortis, or character style ones

And that's without much thought and not including any chapter specific options, which we'll surely get.

Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

Like what though? You won't get other Armor MKs until another Horus Heresy board game, and there aren't many units you can add without some people throwing a hissy fit like they did with Centurions (which honestly weren't bad and needed minimum work to look good).

Tell me: what kit?

That's exactly my point though. Old style marines are played out. GW have to release new kits constantly to remain viable as a miniatures company, and have to encourage people to buy those new kits. There's tons of scope to expand on Primaris though, so that's what Marines will be about for the next decade or something until they need something new again.

Just off the top of my head for obvious Primaris kits still to come:

Characters:
Inceptor captain
Inceptor chaplain
Inceptor librarian
Gravis chaplain
Gravis librarian

Infantry:
Melee Inceptors (I'm imagining power lances and storm shields, for jet pack jousting, but that is unlikely!)
Hellblasters with non-plasma weapons (tons of scope here)
Reivers with full melee/power weapon loadout

Vehicles:
Primaris APC
Primaris drop pod
Alternate Redemptors eh Ironclad, Mortis, or character style ones

And that's without much thought and not including any chapter specific options, which we'll surely get.

So your logic being that, if they're not continuously releasing regular Marines, they're gonna discontinue them?

They weren't discontinued because Mk3-4 became plastic and Terninators weren't discontinued because Tar and Cat armors were released. You're grasping at straws.

It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

I love Primaris! It got me back in the game, can't wait for all the new units we're going to get

I have a strong suspicion that Primaris was one of Kirby’s last projects, and it was too far along for Roundtree to stop - but he didn’t need to push once they were out.

I believe the idea behind the Primaris was both to power up and simplify marines. The former being to address complaints that mArines were too easy to dispatch. The latter being an effort to cut down on decision paralysis/excess model bits in the kits.

Right now, classic marines have a ton of gear and weapon options - far beyond what any other faction has available in their kits (Most have two build options and two basic weapon options, with maybe three special weapon options - disregarding Imp guard). The new Primaris kits (not the ez-build) seem to have that same limited palette. While veterans to the game probably strongly dislike the limit on weapon choices, it makes it a lot easier for newcomers to put together a unit if they only have an either-or choice.

Personally, I just got into Primaris this last week, with a discount purchase of Dark Imperium. I’m yet to be impressed with them, but I do hope against hope we won’t see the Primaris replace classic marines - but I fear we will.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

But centurions are designated heavy weapon platforms and terminator armors have "pros" and "cons" totally different scenario

Frankly I love my Primaris but it feels as though they were designed for 7th.
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Sv3+
S4 Ap4 30" Bolt rifle
Ooo yeah I'd pay 100pts for that squad

Ehhh, I always thought centurions were a “sneaky-sneaky’ attempt by GW to fix terminators (maybe as a trial run), that just didn’t take, despite how everyone loves to rag how bad Terminators are.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

But centurions are designated heavy weapon platforms and terminator armors have "pros" and "cons" totally different scenario

Also, I fully expect Primaris style rescaled Terminators at some point!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
Ehhh, I always thought centurions were a “sneaky-sneaky’ attempt by GW to fix terminators (maybe as a trial run), that just didn’t take, despite how everyone loves to rag how bad Terminators are.

The difference being the people love the idea and general aesthetic of Terminators. People WANT Terminators to be good, even if they haven't been for... Arguably decades?

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

But centurions are designated heavy weapon platforms and terminator armors have "pros" and "cons" totally different scenario

Frankly I love my Primaris but it feels as though they were designed for 7th.
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Sv3+
S4 Ap4 30" Bolt rifle
Ooo yeah I'd pay 100pts for that squad

And Primaris have pros and cons to the rest of the codex as well. So that argument falls flat.

Stux wrote:

Also, I fully expect Primaris style rescaled Terminators at some point!

Isn't that basically what Gravis armor is?

I think the lack of adoption mostly comes down to a couple key issues:

- Repulsors aren't effective enough to be their only transport option.
- Much like the rest of the Space Marine codex; being very tied to Guillimen makes them feel suboptimal outside of Ultramarines and while everyone likes Space Marines, most don't necessarily seem to want them to be blue.

 LunarSol wrote:

Stux wrote:

Also, I fully expect Primaris style rescaled Terminators at some point!

Isn't that basically what Gravis armor is?

I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but in my opinion no.

Gravis is a rig for attaching specialised equipment, it's about delivering specialised systems to the battlefield. Terminator armour is more tactical elite combat. It is for first response, and the ability to survive and react to the enemy.

So aesthetic, mechanics, and lore are all distinct in my opinion.

On top of all that, I think as a design GW will want to preserve the IP. Terminators are iconic basically! But they could be much better proportioned


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:


I think the lack of adoption mostly comes down to a couple key issues:

- Repulsors aren't effective enough to be their only transport option.
- Much like the rest of the Space Marine codex; being very tied to Guillimen makes them feel suboptimal outside of Ultramarines and while everyone likes Space Marines, most don't necessarily seem to want them to be blue.

Agreed, but this will improve as more Primarchs are released. I also hope that we will get an alternative transport vehicle for Primaris eventually. Hover rhino or what have you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

But centurions are designated heavy weapon platforms and terminator armors have "pros" and "cons" totally different scenario

Frankly I love my Primaris but it feels as though they were designed for 7th.
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Sv3+
S4 Ap4 30" Bolt rifle
Ooo yeah I'd pay 100pts for that squad

And Primaris have pros and cons to the rest of the codex as well. So that argument falls flat.

I don't disagree with you.
Every unit should have its pros and cons though
Tacs: more options, can be outfitted for any task
Intercessors: harder hitting base weapon and more "durability" (and that's a pretty hard stretch)

I wish Gravis Marines had three wounds then they would be perfect.

What I want GW to do is put on their big-boy panties and admit their mistake.

Retcon Primaris Marines as only having new equipment, rather than making them Mary Sue Super-Dooper-Chadmarines, and make all the "old" squad loadouts use the Intercessor Statline and base price, with maybe Scouts alone keeping their old 1W statline.

Re-make the old loadouts in Primaris Scale and be done with it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What I want GW to do is put on their big-boy panties and admit their mistake.

Retcon Primaris Marines as only having new equipment, rather than making them Mary Sue Super-Dooper-Chadmarines, and make all the "old" squad loadouts use the Intercessor Statline and base price, with maybe Scouts alone keeping their old 1W statline.

Re-make the old loadouts in Primaris Scale and be done with it.

Umm I'd rather not have GW retcon that just because you don't like the new lore. I'd rather GW simply put out more lore, you can't expect to really judge something based off 2 paragraphs of text. standard marines would be pretty mary sue at the same time too

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What I want GW to do is put on their big-boy panties and admit their mistake.

Retcon Primaris Marines as only having new equipment, rather than making them Mary Sue Super-Dooper-Chadmarines, and make all the "old" squad loadouts use the Intercessor Statline and base price, with maybe Scouts alone keeping their old 1W statline.

Re-make the old loadouts in Primaris Scale and be done with it.

This. They are going to phase out oldmarines eventually, might as well rip the band-aid off and get it over with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

Centurions were just new equipment, Primaris are completely new type of marine. Old marines are literally already being phased out in the fluff. All chapters have had the tech to make Primaris for a century now, so pretty much only non-primaris marines left are over hundred years old, and will die out soon.

 Crimson wrote:

Centurions were just new equipment, Primaris are completely new type of marine. Old marines are literally already being phased out in the fluff. All chapters have had the tech to make Primaris for a century now, so pretty much only non-primaris marines left are over hundred years old, and will die out soon.

Unless they are tank crew, flyer crew, bikers, to be trusted with anything more stabby than a powersword, be given a big gun.
You know kinda useful things that are necessary for a combined arms force.

GW made CentDevs unplayable due to their point cost now.

 Primark G wrote:
GW made CentDevs unplayable due to their point cost now.

And last edition they where one of the "best in slot" choices for space marines. Thats just how 40k goes, yesterdays king is todays pauper

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
GW made CentDevs unplayable due to their point cost now.

And last edition they where one of the "best in slot" choices for space marines. Thats just how 40k goes, yesterdays king is todays pauper

Aye. The changes to damage and wounds this edition did not treat centurions well. 3 wounds is a joke on a ~100pt model. There's really no reason not to just get dreadnoughts instead for long range firepower or for melee at the moment.

Centurions need like 5+ wounds to be viable at the moment I'd say.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Retcon Primaris Marines as only having new equipment, rather than making them Mary Sue Super-Dooper-Chadmarines, and make all the "old" squad loadouts use the Intercessor Statline and base price, with maybe Scouts alone keeping their old 1W statline.
Re-make the old loadouts in Primaris Scale and be done with it.

I know a lot of folks will be against this, but for me the moment I imagine "true scale" MK VII armor marines, and Terminators, all scaled up to the dimensions of Primaris... I would happily retire my entire collection and collect it all over again.

Finally, my scouts and guard would look like they do in the art, tiny beside the Astartes.

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Regardless of which direction GW went there would be people upset about it. I imagine they choose the option they felt would piss off the least number of people.

If the Primaris sold well, than I would expect a lot more in the future and the retirement of the classic range. If they didn't then we won't. And GW will search for a new way to expand the range of Space Marines. Regardless in a few years what ever happens there will be new SM kits for sale.

I'd buy a lot more Primaris models if they had better crunch.

I would like to see Primaris Terminators that are different than Gravis. Fluff it that they are Veteran Primaris Marines wearing modified Terminator armor that fits their larger frames. Something the size of Allarus Terminators would be nice, but in the Indomitus Pattern armor.

But still, there are way too many unit types that Primaris can't replicate very well, Terminators and Assault Marines being the ones that come to mind off hand, or any sort of dedicated role tanks (which is VERY odd considering all of the other Primaris units are dedicated role), regular Marines will always be around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd buy a lot more Primaris models if they had better crunch.

Agreed. Most of their rules are lackluster at best, laughably awful at best.

Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

I can't think of a single primaris character I'd rather take than a non-primaris equivalent, because marine characters get mobility options and better, less predetermined wargear choices.

"hey, i'd like a close combat character please"

"here you go - oh, and here's his mandatory gakky ranged weapon, and here's his mandatory pistol, and here's his mandatory Banner Of Primaris Awesomeness, and here's his mandatory power sword because the model has one clipped to the belt even though he's got a powerfist you'll use every time.

Also he's slow. No jump packs or bikes allowed.

Have fun."

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

Intercessors form the Troops section of both of my SM armies (Crimson Fists and Blood Angels). They do a decent job in both cases by being fairly survivable. My Crimson Fists Hellblasters just don't get much done. They tend to get focus fired to death. I haven't gotten my Inceptors out yet for my Blood Angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

I can't think of a single primaris character I'd rather take than a non-primaris equivalent, because marine characters get mobility options and better, less predetermined wargear choices.

"hey, i'd like a close combat character please"

"here you go - oh, and here's his mandatory gakky ranged weapon, and here's his mandatory pistol, and here's his mandatory Banner Of Primaris Awesomeness, and here's his mandatory power sword because the model has one clipped to the belt even though he's got a powerfist you'll use every time.

Also he's slow. No jump packs or bikes allowed.

Have fun."

Oh, and you want to put him in a transport? Here is your 300+ pt transport. Good luck!

Every time I consider a primaris unit for my Deathwatch I get stopped becuase they feel like hand-hold kiddy units.

If you give little jimmy a choice, he might make one that's bad, so lets make sure jimmy's marine units always come with a ranged weapon, and always come with a melee weapon, and always come with an anti-infantry weapon, and always come with an anti-tank weapon, and that you can't switch those out because jimmy might accidentally make a decision that's dumb.

I get it, I really do. I still own models from my original Space Wolf army that I look back at with a fondness. I was actually incredibly excited when the Deathwatch rules came out that I got to dig around in my old box and give a spiffy new set of paint to my Space Wolves sergeant with Storm Bolter and Thunder Hammer on foot, because amazingly DW can make that work. I still have my Devastator Squad with one missile launcher, one multi-melta, one heavy bolter and one lascannon, because that's what came in the box. And I still remember my very first game with them, then they fired everything they had at a leman russ tank, did absolutely nothing, then got completely flattened by the single battlecannon shot that came in response.

I get that some kids would probably get mad about that and leave the game. It just means I have no interest in playing primaris marines as an adult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

Intercessors form the Troops section of both of my SM armies (Crimson Fists and Blood Angels). They do a decent job in both cases by being fairly survivable. My Crimson Fists Hellblasters just don't get much done. They tend to get focus fired to death. I haven't gotten my Inceptors out yet for my Blood Angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

I can't think of a single primaris character I'd rather take than a non-primaris equivalent, because marine characters get mobility options and better, less predetermined wargear choices.

"hey, i'd like a close combat character please"

"here you go - oh, and here's his mandatory gakky ranged weapon, and here's his mandatory pistol, and here's his mandatory Banner Of Primaris Awesomeness, and here's his mandatory power sword because the model has one clipped to the belt even though he's got a powerfist you'll use every time.

Also he's slow. No jump packs or bikes allowed.

Have fun."

Oh, and you want to put him in a transport? Here is your 300+ pt transport. Good luck!

"and just in case your opponent has lots of guys, the transport has a machine gun on it.

And just in case they have a plane, it also has an anti-flyer missile.

And just in case they have a tank, it also has a lascannon.

Look at how well you're doing! Your marines can handle everything! Think how cool this tank is going to look with all those guns on it!"

I run the Primaris Captain with PF & PP plus Santic Halo - does just fine.

All primaris models are basically DOA with Drukhari in the meta.

They were DoA the moment that plasma was a thing in 8th edition. So, from the very beginning.

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Can't do that. Having two different legal models of differing sizes for the same unit isn't going to fly. Especially when it may make a difference, like peeking over terrain.

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Can't do that. Having two different legal models of differing sizes for the same unit isn't going to fly. Especially when it may make a difference, like peeking over terrain.

... Does someone else want to tell him or should I?

You do realise multiple models have different sized models over the years? Dreadnoughts, Carnifexes, hell even Tactical Marines. The Mk1 vs the Mk2 Rhino is another great example.

Hell, the tiny, tiny Ork Trukk is still legal.

So much sass here...

I do love my Primaris but if I could make a wishlist for them it'd look something like this:

Competence.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Can't do that. Having two different legal models of differing sizes for the same unit isn't going to fly. Especially when it may make a difference, like peeking over terrain.

... Does someone else want to tell him or should I?

You do realise multiple models have different sized models over the years? Dreadnoughts, Carnifexes, hell even Tactical Marines. The Mk1 vs the Mk2 Rhino is another great example.

But not at the same time? Usually you always had to use the newest model correct? I mean, I can accept custom conversions being allowed so long as they are roughly the same size and shape as the official model, but multiple legal models of greatly differing size? That seems so... stupid for a game trying to be taken seriously.

 Fafnir wrote:
Hell, the tiny, tiny Ork Trukk is still legal.

You sure?

w1zard wrote:
But not at the same time? Usually you always had to use the newest model correct?

No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

w1zard wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Hell, the tiny, tiny Ork Trukk is still legal.

You sure?

Yes, we are sure. Please, if I have missed something in the rulebook, illuminate me of my ignorance.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

w1zard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

In case you haven't noticed, common sense has zero place in 40k. 40k is a world where being flamethrowers are the supreme anti-aircraft weaponry.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

In case you haven't noticed, common sense has zero place in 40k. 40k is a world where being flamethrowers are the supreme anti-aircraft weaponry.

Can you show that mathematically or are you just complaining Flamers can hit them now?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

In case you haven't noticed, common sense has zero place in 40k. 40k is a world where being flamethrowers are the supreme anti-aircraft weaponry.

Can you show that mathematically or are you just complaining Flamers can hit them now?

(In case anyone was actually wondering)

Assuming ideal ranges and no re-rolls vs a T7 3+ Sv flier with -1 to hit:

Meltagun - 1.5 wounds
OC Plasmagun - 1.111 wounds
Las cannon - 0.97 wounds
Missile Launcher - 0.777 wounds
Grav gun - .5555 wounds
Flamer - 0.3888 wounds

So for space marines anyway, it's actually the worst option.

Some of the big flamers aren't terrible at killing fliers, but they are more just good at everything.

w1zard wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Hell, the tiny, tiny Ork Trukk is still legal.

You sure?

Yes. It's no less an official Games Workshop model than any other. GW's official stance for events they sponsor is that you use official Games Workshop models. Base sizes should be altered to accommodate changes, but your models themselves never go bad. People put a lot of time and effort into their models. It would be absurd to say that someone can't play with their toy soldiers because they're too old.

 Fafnir wrote:

Yes. It's no less an official Games Workshop model than any other. GW's official stance for events they sponsor is that you use official Games Workshop models. Base sizes should be altered to accommodate changes, but your models themselves never go bad. People put a lot of time and effort into their models. It would be absurd to say that someone can't play with their toy soldiers because they're too old.

But for a game that is supposed to be taken seriously and supposedly played competitively, you really can't have wildly varing models (conversions are fine so long as they are the same size) representing the same thing, it totally throws off the game balance. People put a lot of time and effort into their models sure, but you really shouldn't be playing with an ork trukk from 20 years ago, sorry. ESPECIALLY if GW has released updated models for the same unit. Time to buy some new models and keep your army contemperary.

That doesn't mean you have to throw out your old models, keep them as they are a cool reminder of the past, but they shouldn't have any place in matched play.

Assembling an army and expecting to play it as is for the rest of your life is both naive and idiotic.

When I first saw the Primaris Aggressors, I did think they were basically Terminators - wouldn't mind if they were, just give them the 2+ save (and maybe an invuln save).

What I do like is they look like someone was smart enough to strap the guns to the forearms and give them dual powerfists. I guess Calgar finally let Cawl peek at the blueprints for his armor, or someone noticed the Grey Knights were keeping their hands free.

Of course, they got wholly outdone by Custodes...

I'm looking forward to the second wave of Primaris I have to admit. they are way too restrictive at the moment. DW is the only place where they can shine as is.

 Stormonu wrote:
When I first saw the Primaris Aggressors, I did think they were basically Terminators - wouldn't mind if they were, just give them the 2+ save (and maybe an invuln save).

What I do like is they look like someone was smart enough to strap the guns to the forearms and give them dual powerfists. I guess Calgar finally let Cawl peek at the blueprints for his armor, or someone noticed the Grey Knights were keeping their hands free.

Of course, they got wholly outdone by Custodes...

they fill a TOTALLY differant role from what the entire custodes armory fills. Custodes are pretty much your "anti elites" (in fact Custodes are almost the perfect tool to crush a Primaris force) whereas agressors are more anti-hoard.

w1zard wrote:

But for a game that is supposed to be taken seriously and supposedly played competitively...

Boy, have I got news for you...

GW's own admission is that they're a model company first. It would be very poor business for a model company to invalidate its own models, no matter the era.

 Fafnir wrote:

w1zard wrote:

But for a game that is supposed to be taken seriously and supposedly played competitively...

Boy, have I got news for you...

GW's own admission is that they're a model company first. It would be very poor business for a model company to invalidate its own models, no matter the era.

Also GW has never really taken 40k as anything more then a for fun beer and pretzels game.

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Can't do that. Having two different legal models of differing sizes for the same unit isn't going to fly. Especially when it may make a difference, like peeking over terrain.

or you mean like when they make a new kit for terminators that's nearly 1.5 times the size and with bases twice as large?

Remember how that ruined competitive balance forever?

the_scotsman wrote:

or you mean like when they make a new kit for terminators that's nearly 1.5 times the size and with bases twice as large?

Remember how that ruined competitive balance forever?

Changing something is fine, especially when a model line gets updated. But keeping both the smaller models and the larger ones legal to run in matched play at the same time is just really dumb IMO. People are going to use that to model to advantage. Not only that it is unfair mechanically considering base size actually has an effect on how assault is resolved. That's why the rule exists that the model needs to run the base that it comes with. There should be another rule that says if a model line is updated and its size is drastically changed, you need to update your models to the new one, or at the VERY LEAST change your bases to the new one that is current for that datasheet.

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

or you mean like when they make a new kit for terminators that's nearly 1.5 times the size and with bases twice as large?

Remember how that ruined competitive balance forever?

Changing something is fine, especially when a model line gets updated. But keeping both the smaller models and the larger ones legal to run in matched play at the same time is just really dumb IMO. People are going to use that to model to advantage. Not only that it is unfair mechanically considering base size actually has an effect on how assault is resolved. That's why the rule exists that the model needs to run the base that it comes with. There should be another rule that says if a model line is updated and its size is drastically changed, you need to update your models to the new one, or at the VERY LEAST change your bases to the new one that is current for that datasheet.

So you think invalidating customers' purchases, which they might have made very recently to such a change, is ok?

This is the thing - tournament level competitive play is not the core demagraphic for 40k. It's meant to be a casual game played between friends. Making a model someone has legitimately bought and spent time lovingly painting obsolete is something GW are strongly against, and I support that even if there are some cons for the competitive scene.

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

or you mean like when they make a new kit for terminators that's nearly 1.5 times the size and with bases twice as large?

Remember how that ruined competitive balance forever?

Changing something is fine, especially when a model line gets updated. But keeping both the smaller models and the larger ones legal to run in matched play at the same time is just really dumb IMO. People are going to use that to model to advantage. Not only that it is unfair mechanically considering base size actually has an effect on how assault is resolved. That's why the rule exists that the model needs to run the base that it comes with. There should be another rule that says if a model line is updated and its size is drastically changed, you need to update your models to the new one, or at the VERY LEAST change your bases to the new one that is current for that datasheet.

You mean like how we have this big enormous problem with people using old terminators, old dark eldar grotesques, old cardboard ork deff dreads, old 25mm avatars of khaine, old tiny bloodthirsters etc in competitive play?

Oh right, we don't have that problem. Even though all these models exist and are competitively legal.

You guys can argue over if GW should allow old models or not, or if theyre a model company first, or if they should allow old models in tournaments or whatever.

But the fact of the matter is (to my knowledge) GW has not said anywhere that you can't use older models, so any arguement on what you think their position SHOULD be is irrelevant to a discussion on if I can use my old trukks or not.

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

or you mean like when they make a new kit for terminators that's nearly 1.5 times the size and with bases twice as large?

Remember how that ruined competitive balance forever?

Changing something is fine, especially when a model line gets updated. But keeping both the smaller models and the larger ones legal to run in matched play at the same time is just really dumb IMO. People are going to use that to model to advantage. Not only that it is unfair mechanically considering base size actually has an effect on how assault is resolved. That's why the rule exists that the model needs to run the base that it comes with. There should be another rule that says if a model line is updated and its size is drastically changed, you need to update your models to the new one, or at the VERY LEAST change your bases to the new one that is current for that datasheet.

You mean like how we have this big enormous problem with people using old terminators, old dark eldar grotesques, old cardboard ork deff dreads, old 25mm avatars of khaine, old tiny bloodthirsters etc in competitive play?

Oh right, we don't have that problem. Even though all these models exist and are competitively legal.

Yeah, I can't think of it ever being an issue for a major tournament having players running old models for advantage. Top players in tournament circuits tend to go for new armies often enough that old models are just not practical to begin with, and in less competitive circles, GW's new models tend to be enough of an improvement that most players jump on to the new ones pretty quickly anyway. It's a non-issue that regulating would just end up causing more problems for GW than leaving it.

Also, W1zard, I did point out that most events run with the stipulation that base sizes do indeed have to be updated to match the current standard. AoS 2nd is even coming with a base size guide with its General's Handbook.

 Fafnir wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

or you mean like when they make a new kit for terminators that's nearly 1.5 times the size and with bases twice as large?

Remember how that ruined competitive balance forever?

Changing something is fine, especially when a model line gets updated. But keeping both the smaller models and the larger ones legal to run in matched play at the same time is just really dumb IMO. People are going to use that to model to advantage. Not only that it is unfair mechanically considering base size actually has an effect on how assault is resolved. That's why the rule exists that the model needs to run the base that it comes with. There should be another rule that says if a model line is updated and its size is drastically changed, you need to update your models to the new one, or at the VERY LEAST change your bases to the new one that is current for that datasheet.

You mean like how we have this big enormous problem with people using old terminators, old dark eldar grotesques, old cardboard ork deff dreads, old 25mm avatars of khaine, old tiny bloodthirsters etc in competitive play?

Oh right, we don't have that problem. Even though all these models exist and are competitively legal.

Yeah, I can't think of it ever being an issue for a major tournament having players running old models for advantage. Top players in tournament circuits tend to go for new armies often enough that old models are just not practical to begin with, and in less competitive circles, GW's new models tend to be enough of an improvement that most players jump on to the new ones pretty quickly anyway. It's a non-issue that regulating would just end up causing more problems for GW than leaving it.

Also, W1zard, I did point out that most events run with the stipulation that base sizes do indeed have to be updated to match the current standard. AoS 2nd is even coming with a base size guide with its General's Handbook.

FWIW, GW did actually attempt at regulating it in their GTs. There was a rule that was put in one year (timeline we're looking at here is when the Craftworld Eldar codex came out, so mid to late 3rd ed.) that only CURRENT GW models could be used and understandably there was outrage from the players (mainly due to the infamously terrible "Striking Bunny Rabbits" which were released at the same time, with many players looking in horror that GW wanted them to use those instead of the previous version). GW backed down PDQ and rescinded the rule.

 Fafnir wrote:

Yeah, I can't think of it ever being an issue for a major tournament having players running old models for advantage.

Then you have a very limited imagination. If I were an competitive ork player I'd make sure to get my hands on those old trukks because they are much smaller and thus easier to hide out of LOS or keep in cover.

Stux wrote:

So you think invalidating customers' purchases, which they might have made very recently to such a change, is ok?

Yes. When I bought my xbox 360, a week later the price was slashed 50$ after the announcement of the xbox one, and I had just spent a decent chunk of money on a system that would be irrelevant in a few months. It sucks but I have no right to whine about it. This is how progress is made.

I said it once and I'll say it again... Purchasing models with the expectation that you can use them indefinitely in matched play, despite possibly massive rule changes or having multiple model line updates is extremely naive, and entitled. Sometimes you just have to retire your 20+ year old models because they just aren't relevant any more. It's as stupid as original xbox or xbox 360 owners demanding to play the newer xbox one games online because they payed money and put a lot of time into getting achievements for games on the older systems.

 Grimtuff wrote:

FWIW, GW did actually attempt at regulating it in their GTs. There was a rule that was put in one year (timeline we're looking at here is when the Craftworld Eldar codex came out, so mid to late 3rd ed.) that only CURRENT GW models could be used and understandably there was outrage from the players (mainly due to the infamously terrible "Striking Bunny Rabbits" which were released at the same time, with many players looking in horror that GW wanted them to use those instead of the previous version). GW backed down PDQ and rescinded the rule.

See? I knew this was going to be a thing. If I were GW I would have stood my ground against the backlash. Tough stuff... Players should be expecting to replace at LEAST some of their army every 15-20 years, if not the entire thing.

The difference is that that xbox you bought still works just as well. It isn't going to become useless after a new console comes out. I have a ps2 and that works perfectly fine despite talk of the ps5 being a thing. The console comparison is just weird.

It's completely reasonable that I expect to be able to keep using the models that I have even when they're old.

pm713 wrote:
The difference is that that xbox you bought still works just as well. It isn't going to become useless after a new console comes out. I have a ps2 and that works perfectly fine despite talk of the ps5 being a thing. The console comparison is just weird.

It's completely reasonable that I expect to be able to keep using the models that I have even when they're old.

And you can keep using them, just not in matched play. I'm not advocating forcefully coming to your house and taking them from you, or forcing you to throw them away.

IRRC the xbox live network for the original xbox has been shut down, and the xbox live network for the 360 is soon to follow. It's just the price of moving forward.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The difference is that that xbox you bought still works just as well. It isn't going to become useless after a new console comes out. I have a ps2 and that works perfectly fine despite talk of the ps5 being a thing. The console comparison is just weird.

It's completely reasonable that I expect to be able to keep using the models that I have even when they're old.

And you can keep using them, just not in matched play. I'm not advocating forcefully coming to your house and taking them from you, or forcing you to throw them away.

Why not? They're models, they show exactly what unit I'm using and there's no reason I couldn't be able to use them. What gives you the right to constantly force me to buy new models for an arbitrary sense of rightness?

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The difference is that that xbox you bought still works just as well. It isn't going to become useless after a new console comes out. I have a ps2 and that works perfectly fine despite talk of the ps5 being a thing. The console comparison is just weird.

It's completely reasonable that I expect to be able to keep using the models that I have even when they're old.

And you can keep using them, just not in matched play. I'm not advocating forcefully coming to your house and taking them from you, or forcing you to throw them away.

Why not? They're models, they show exactly what unit I'm using and there's no reason I couldn't be able to use them. What gives you the right to constantly force me to buy new models for an arbitrary sense of rightness?

Because allowing multiple types of models that may be greatly varying in both physical size or in base size is not fair on a mechanical or balance level. It should be standardized, for any particular datasheet.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The difference is that that xbox you bought still works just as well. It isn't going to become useless after a new console comes out. I have a ps2 and that works perfectly fine despite talk of the ps5 being a thing. The console comparison is just weird.

It's completely reasonable that I expect to be able to keep using the models that I have even when they're old.

And you can keep using them, just not in matched play. I'm not advocating forcefully coming to your house and taking them from you, or forcing you to throw them away.

Why not? They're models, they show exactly what unit I'm using and there's no reason I couldn't be able to use them. What gives you the right to constantly force me to buy new models for an arbitrary sense of rightness?

Magic makes you buy new cards every expansion soooooo

Maybe if people bought more models the price would drop, jk, that'll never happen lol

 fraser1191 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The difference is that that xbox you bought still works just as well. It isn't going to become useless after a new console comes out. I have a ps2 and that works perfectly fine despite talk of the ps5 being a thing. The console comparison is just weird.

It's completely reasonable that I expect to be able to keep using the models that I have even when they're old.

And you can keep using them, just not in matched play. I'm not advocating forcefully coming to your house and taking them from you, or forcing you to throw them away.

Why not? They're models, they show exactly what unit I'm using and there's no reason I couldn't be able to use them. What gives you the right to constantly force me to buy new models for an arbitrary sense of rightness?

Magic makes you buy new cards every expansion soooooo

Maybe if people bought more models the price would drop, jk, that'll never happen lol

With TCGs it can get a bit more complicated (I'll cover Yugioh as I did that competitively for quite a few years) as you'll have either obscene power creep (I remember Qliphorts or something near the end of when I quit Yugioh) or decks that still keep going on for a few formats that are somewhat viable (Mermails were a Yugioh example of a deck that, even with hits, still got use because of some of the combos it could get off).

Typically there are upsides and downsides to having a model be bigger or smaller, so it's totally not a big deal.

jcd386 wrote:
Typically there are upsides and downsides to having a model be bigger or smaller, so it's totally not a big deal.

Not true, assault units for example will always want to be smaller models because it allows more bases in contact, and allows them to take advantage of cover better. There is literally no advantage (at least none that I can think of) to having a big assault model. Even "big one" assault models like knights want smaller bases to minimize the amount of enemies that strike at them while maximizing the amount of enemies that they can strike at.

An Xbox or deck of Magic cards don't take a lot of time and effort to complete, though. That's the thing- if GW ever wanted to implement a system like Magic has, where sets rotate out of Standard, then they should just switch to cheap prepaints. Demanding people stop using models they've spent many hours on isn't right- and it isn't the players' fault GW can't make up their darn mind what scale everything should be.

Not to mention that while Magic has rotation, it has many formats, all of which exist within "matched play". There are even tournaments for pauper now!

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

In case you haven't noticed, common sense has zero place in 40k. 40k is a world where being flamethrowers are the supreme anti-aircraft weaponry.

Can you show that mathematically or are you just complaining Flamers can hit them now?

(In case anyone was actually wondering)

Assuming ideal ranges and no re-rolls vs a T7 3+ Sv flier with -1 to hit:

Meltagun - 1.5 wounds
OC Plasmagun - 1.111 wounds
Las cannon - 0.97 wounds
Missile Launcher - 0.777 wounds
Grav gun - .5555 wounds
Flamer - 0.3888 wounds

So for space marines anyway, it's actually the worst option.

Some of the big flamers aren't terrible at killing fliers, but they are more just good at everything.

At 0.04 wounds per point it's better than the lascannon, missile launcher and grav-gun.

Blastaar wrote:
An Xbox or deck of Magic cards don't take a lot of time and effort to complete, though. That's the thing- if GW ever wanted to implement a system like Magic has, where sets rotate out of Standard, then they should just switch to cheap prepaints. Demanding people stop using models they've spent many hours on isn't right- and it isn't the players' fault GW can't make up their darn mind what scale everything should be.

Not to mention that while Magic has rotation, it has many formats, all of which exist within "matched play". There are even tournaments for pauper now!

Absolutely!

If you want a game that is balance and competitive viability first, 40k is not your game. It never has been and never will be. If you want to collect awesome models, craft an army of your dudes, and forge the narrative in fun games with friends, then this is totally the game to get into though!

Blastaar wrote:
An Xbox or deck of Magic cards don't take a lot of time and effort to complete, though. That's the thing- if GW ever wanted to implement a system like Magic has, where sets rotate out of Standard, then they should just switch to cheap prepaints. Demanding people stop using models they've spent many hours on isn't right- and it isn't the players' fault GW can't make up their darn mind what scale everything should be.

Not to mention that while Magic has rotation, it has many formats, all of which exist within "matched play". There are even tournaments for pauper now!

If you had to switch out models every few years then I might agree with you, but come on... replacing 20+ year old models is not asking for much. If you can afford the hundreds of dollars per year on this hobby you can afford to replace parts of your army occasionally to stay relevant.

w1zard wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
An Xbox or deck of Magic cards don't take a lot of time and effort to complete, though. That's the thing- if GW ever wanted to implement a system like Magic has, where sets rotate out of Standard, then they should just switch to cheap prepaints. Demanding people stop using models they've spent many hours on isn't right- and it isn't the players' fault GW can't make up their darn mind what scale everything should be.

Not to mention that while Magic has rotation, it has many formats, all of which exist within "matched play". There are even tournaments for pauper now!

If you had to switch out models every few years then I might agree with you, but come on... replacing 20+ year old models is not asking for much. If you can afford the hundreds of dollars per year on this hobby you can afford to replace parts of your army occasionally to stay relevant.

What about the people who bought the model yesterday, if it's obsolete today?

You end up with the super messy situation of either allowing models for a set period of time after they are discontinued and thus having mixed sizes available anyway, or giving customers a long heads up before a model is discontinued in which case no one buys it.

Stux wrote:
..or giving customers a long heads up before a model is discontinued in which case no one buys it.

Bingo. There should be a point they stop production and announce the new remodels. The remaining stock will be bought by collectors and can be offered at a discount.

Plastic sisters have been announced to be coming out next year. I expect sisters players to be getting ready for that... There should be some sort of grace period for a few weeks or something after release, but I would expect NOT to be playing a metal sisters army in 2020.

w1zard wrote:

Stux wrote:
..or giving customers a long heads up before a model is discontinued in which case no one buys it.

Bingo.

Plastic sisters have been announced to be coming out next year. I expect sisters players to be getting ready for that... There should be some sort of grace period after release, but I would expect NOT to be playing a metal sisters army in 2020.

I just strongly disagree that all the people who've spent the last decade or so crafting an awesome metal sisters army, jumping all the hurdles presented for it, should be expected to ditch it if they want to play competitively. That's just not what this game is about.

This has gone back and forth enough that I think we need to agree to disagree at this point to be honest though!

w1zard wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
An Xbox or deck of Magic cards don't take a lot of time and effort to complete, though. That's the thing- if GW ever wanted to implement a system like Magic has, where sets rotate out of Standard, then they should just switch to cheap prepaints. Demanding people stop using models they've spent many hours on isn't right- and it isn't the players' fault GW can't make up their darn mind what scale everything should be.

Not to mention that while Magic has rotation, it has many formats, all of which exist within "matched play". There are even tournaments for pauper now!

If you had to switch out models every few years then I might agree with you, but come on... replacing 20+ year old models is not asking for much. If you can afford the hundreds of dollars per year on this hobby you can afford to replace parts of your army occasionally to stay relevant.

I think you may have missed my point. It isn't just the money, it's the time. i suspect that, for most people, they can either build and paint new projects, or work on models that replace older versions of the same kit just because GW chooses to be inconsistent with sizing- but not both. I certainly couldn't do both, and I'm not willing to choose maintaining my existing army over new units, conversions, a second army, terrain, etc. etc.

w1zard wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Typically there are upsides and downsides to having a model be bigger or smaller, so it's totally not a big deal.

Not true, assault units for example will always want to be smaller models because it allows more bases in contact, and allows them to take advantage of cover better. There is literally no advantage (at least none that I can think of) to having a big assault model. Even "big one" assault models like knights want smaller bases to minimize the amount of enemies that strike at them while maximizing the amount of enemies that they can strike at.

Larger bases take up more room, which means you control more space, can be within 12" of more things and therefore charge more things, can string out farther to play aura/coherency games, they create more space distance when models are removed, and so on. Lots of vehicles would prefer larger bases to avoid getting surrounded, to create bigger explosions, etc. I agree that there might be specific cases where you might want to be bigger or smaller, but it is usually not a game breaking issue and can hardly be called modeling for advantage when it's rarely seen and fairly random which units are effected.

Blastaar wrote:
I think you may have missed my point. It isn't just the money, it's the time. i suspect that, for most people, they can either build and paint new projects, or work on models that replace older versions of the same kit just because GW chooses to be inconsistent with sizing- but not both. I certainly couldn't do both, and I'm not willing to choose maintaining my existing army over new units, conversions, a second army, terrain, etc. etc.

I know this is going to sound rude, but I seriously mean this in a completely impartial sense. But if you don't have the time to paint models to maintain your existing army over a 15 to 20 year period, do you really have the time for this hobby?

jcd386 wrote:

Larger bases take up more room, which means you control more space, can be within 12" of more things and therefore charge more things, can string out farther to play aura/coherency games, they create more space distance when models are removed, and so on. Lots of vehicles would prefer larger bases to avoid getting surrounded, to create bigger explosions, etc. I agree that there might be specific cases where you might want to be bigger or smaller, but it is usually not a game breaking issue and can hardly be called modeling for advantage when it's rarely seen and fairly random which units are effected.

This is a common misconception. Larger bases certainly have a bigger "footprint" so to speak, but it doesn't help you get into combat faster because no matter how large the base is you can only move a certain distance. Unless you want to make the argument that you are deploying the model already within charge range. Good point on the explosion radius though, but I don't see how that remotely compares to the advantage of having a smaller base in assault.

Stux wrote:
I just strongly disagree that all the people who've spent the last decade or so crafting an awesome metal sisters army, jumping all the hurdles presented for it, should be expected to ditch it if they want to play competitively. That's just not what this game is about.

This has gone back and forth enough that I think we need to agree to disagree at this point to be honest though!

But I spent many hundreds of hours on my xbox360 account racking up gamerscore. Why should I have to abandon that to upgrade to the xbox one? Things move forward, sometimes that involves leaving things in the past.

But you are right in that we are really far off topic.

w1zard wrote:

But I spent many hundreds of hours on my xbox360 account racking up gamerscore. Why should I have to abandon that to upgrade to the xbox one? Things move forward, sometimes that involves leaving things in the past.

I think that's a false equivalence. Getting achievements in videogames is not the same as assembling and painting miniatures. There's a permanence to miniatures that appeals to their fans, and GW generally respects that, which I see as a very positive thing.

Stux wrote:

w1zard wrote:

But I spent many hundreds of hours on my xbox360 account racking up gamerscore. Why should I have to abandon that to upgrade to the xbox one? Things move forward, sometimes that involves leaving things in the past.

I think that's a false equivalence. Getting achievements in videogames is not the same as assembling and painting miniatures. There's a permanence to miniatures that appeals to their fans, and GW generally respects that, which I see as a very positive thing.

There is also a permanence in getting achievements that are linked to you gaming account and are visible to anyone who looks. Why do you get to say that painting miniatures is so much more important then getting achievements on video games? Both are a hobby, and both yield visual results and a sense of satisfaction. I see no difference between the two, save one is a solid object, ad the other is pixels on a screen.

Again, I'm not advocating throwing out the old figures. Just making them not legal in matched play, they would still be fine in narrative play.

I don't get to decide it, the companies involved do. GW say that permanence is important. Awesome, I agree. If you have a problem with Microsoft erasing your progress every generation then take it up with them. It doesn't mean we can't have nice things here. That is the false equivalence.

Stux wrote:
I don't get to decide it, the companies involved do. GW say that permanence is important. Awesome, I agree. If you have a problem with Microsoft erasing your progress every generation then take it up with them. It doesn't mean we can't have nice things here. That is the false equivalence.

Agreed, the console comparison is stupid and makes no sense. The Xbox 360 becoming obsolete because a new generation came out means that new games are developed on new technology. A trukk being replaced with a different looking trukk is not the same thing, its more equivalent to the ps4 vs ps4 slim where the only real difference is a size and look change. The PS4 will still play the same gak the PS4 slim does, it just looks different.

I guess we all gotta go back and replace our old 3rd/4th edition tactical marines since new tactical marines came out, despite having the same rules and looking roughly the same. This whole argument is useless because GW doesnt care either way so I dont know why this even is a discussion.

I get that some models are smaller, but when was the last time you played against a player that brought older models for that reason and it actually made a difference in your matched play game? If its a tournament then the TO will have a rule against using older models. How many TOs do that? Probably very few because nobody cares.

 Billagio wrote:

I guess we all gotta go back and replace our old 3rd/4th edition tactical marines since new tactical marines came out, despite having the same rules and looking roughly the same.

Yes, you should. Although I probably wouldn't care if they were the same size and used the same sized bases. I would definitely care if they were noticably bigger/smaller or used different sized bases. Because, you know that actually effects the game right?

w1zard wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

I guess we all gotta go back and replace our old 3rd/4th edition tactical marines since new tactical marines came out, despite having the same rules and looking roughly the same.

Yes, you should. Although I probably wouldn't care if they were the same size and used the same sized bases. I would definitely care if they were noticably bigger/smaller or used different sized bases. Because, you know that actually effects the game right?

Ok but now you realize that if GW were to care about this they would have to enforce a list of units that can or cannot use which is a pain in the ass and would cause a lot of controversy. The only other option would be no old units in which case everyone has to replace half their armies even if theyre the same size

 Billagio wrote:

Ok but now you realize that if GW were to care about this they would have to enforce a list of units that can or cannot use which is a pain in the ass and would cause a lot of controversy. The only other option would be no old units in which case everyone has to replace half their armies even if theyre the same size

Nah, just a simple rule stating that the most current model needs to be used for all datasheets. Conversions and old models would still be permitted if they were the same size and used the same bases. If that means a lot of people had to replace figures I guess that is tough luck for them.

You could use your 3rd edition space marines because they are the same size as current marines... but that old ork trukk absolutely wouldn't fly.

I would still expect updating to current models being expected as part of the hobby though.

@w1zard

I really don't think that GW's balance is so fine that having a slightly smaller model will actually affect anything. Being able to maybe pile in an extra model is hardly noticeable, especially since models within an inch of models in combat also swing. And as for LOS, well, there is no standard for terrain size/spread so model size is largely irrelevant.

Define 'same size'.

Are we talking about a conversion with a mil or two in the difference? Or are we talking about a dreadnought being cut and bent at the knees, maybe with the gun arm braced on the fist? Cos that's a cool conversion but might lower the height by over a centimetre.

What you're suggesting is the death of the hobby side of things and the enforced obsolescence of a huge tract of models. Did you pay any attention at all to the reception AoS had? It almost bankrupted the company and made the brand so toxic that only a very good 8th edition 40k has managed to turn it around. I'd be surprised if the entire AoS range sold as much as Space Marines alone. And that's where you want to go.

Your comparison with computer games makes zero sense. What makes 40k and table top games in general work is the opponent and the community. Playing the game is an authentic social contract. Invalidating thousands, perhaps millions, of armies, will alienate the equivalent number of players. They'll just walk away or keep playing an earlier edition. And the evidence from the AoS debacle suggests they'll walk away.

Hence, there never was, nor ever shall be, a rule excluding older variants of models. And this is why minimarines will continue to be supported rules wise but maybe not in models, and also why Primaris will, probably, get their own codex, eventually. They can then keep existing Marine players happy but not have to produce any new models. Old marines, I think, will be let wither on the vine. You'll be able to turn up to a tournament in 20 years time with a classic marine army, still supported in rules, only to be greeted with the same condescension that SoB players have had to put up with for the past decade.

w1zard wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Yeah, I can't think of it ever being an issue for a major tournament having players running old models for advantage.

Then you have a very limited imagination. If I were an competitive ork player I'd make sure to get my hands on those old trukks because they are much smaller and thus easier to hide out of LOS or keep in cover.

I never said I was unable of understanding the implications. I'm saying that it's never been a practical issue in any major tournament of note. If there had ever been a relevant precedent, there'd be more people than just you making an issue out of it. Dictating which generations of models people can use would mostly serve to push away hobbyists with investments in collections that go way back, and is largely irrelevant at the highest levels of play anyway, where keeping up with competitive metas makes stocking up specifically on dated models for the purpose of LoS advantage is just impractical. It'd do more harm to the community than good.


Additionally, 40k isn't a particularly good game in its own right. It's carried by the models. Restricting them in an obtrusive way is just not good for anyone's bottom line.

Dandelion wrote:
@w1zard

I really don't think that GW's balance is so fine that having a slightly smaller model will actually affect anything. Being able to maybe pile in an extra model is hardly noticeable, especially since models within an inch of models in combat also swing.

While this would actually matter, and can be pretty huge depending on the army, most regulations require modern base sizes and it's an easy fix to make without invalidating the model itself, so it's a non-issue.

w1zard wrote:

You could use your 3rd edition space marines because they are the same size as current marines... but that old ork trukk absolutely wouldn't fly.

3rd edition marines are absolutely not the same size although they need to be side by side with current marines to see it. How close to the current size is close enough?

What about people that used the generic terminator kit for their Blood Angels but now the BA specific terminators are out? Or old firewarriors vs. new firewarriors? Is that okay? I'm guessing that you're going to say that's okay because they're pretty much the same size. Your rule just got a lot more complicated...

Metal marine dread vs. plastic? They're definitely smaller but not a lot smaller?

You're probably going to end up with a specific ban list and that would make more sense. e.g. old Avatar that's on a 25mm base - not okay, all of the subsequent big models are fine.At that point it is a pretty small number of models affected.

w1zard wrote:

I would still expect updating to current models being expected as part of the hobby though.

What about the many cases where updated models are barely different? New firewarriors and old firewarriors are pretty close to identical. New crisis suits are more poseable but are interchangeable with the old ones. Marines have had four generations of models (not counting primaris) and the last three generations are pretty much interchangeable but they aren't exactly the same size. Updating to new models just because really doesn't make sense much of the time.

w1zard wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

I guess we all gotta go back and replace our old 3rd/4th edition tactical marines since new tactical marines came out, despite having the same rules and looking roughly the same.

Yes, you should. Although I probably wouldn't care if they were the same size and used the same sized bases. I would definitely care if they were noticably bigger/smaller or used different sized bases. Because, you know that actually effects the game right?

Hey there Nathan Poe, how you doin'?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

3rd edition marines are absolutely not the same size although they need to be side by side with current marines to see it. How close to the current size is close enough?

That would be up to GW to decide.

 Fafnir wrote:

While this would actually matter, and can be pretty huge depending on the army, most regulations require modern base sizes and it's an easy fix to make without invalidating the model itself, so it's a non-issue.

I'm glad at least someone on the other side recognizes the implications instead of simply dismissing them. But no, size still plays a very large part in balance because it decides LOS which can and will turn games under the right circumstances.

 Fafnir wrote:

I never said I was unable of understanding the implications. I'm saying that it's never been a practical issue in any major tournament of note. If there had ever been a relevant precedent, there'd be more people than just you making an issue out of it. Dictating which generations of models people can use would mostly serve to push away hobbyists with investments in collections that go way back, and is largely irrelevant at the highest levels of play anyway, where keeping up with competitive metas makes stocking up specifically on dated models for the purpose of LoS advantage is just impractical. It'd do more harm to the community than good.

Additionally, 40k isn't a particularly good game in its own right. It's carried by the models. Restricting them in an obtrusive way is just not good for anyone's bottom line.

If 40k wants to be taken seriously as a competitive tabletop game (and I do think GW is slowly moving in this direction) they will have to implement model standardization at some point, at least for matched play. I'm sorry but they just can't have a "serious" game without it.

Banville wrote:
...And this is why minimarines will continue to be supported rules wise but maybe not in models, and also why Primaris will, probably, get their own codex, eventually. They can then keep existing Marine players happy but not have to produce any new models. Old marines, I think, will be let wither on the vine. You'll be able to turn up to a tournament in 20 years time with a classic marine army, still supported in rules, only to be greeted with the same condescension that SoB players have had to put up with for the past decade.

No. Mark my words, it may take awhile but old marines will absolutely be phased out at some point. I am sure enough that I'd bet a sizable chunk of money and some very sensitive body parts on it.

w1zard wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

3rd edition marines are absolutely not the same size although they need to be side by side with current marines to see it. How close to the current size is close enough?

That would be up to GW to decide.

GW has decided - old models are just fine. You're the one trying to create a new restriction.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

GW has decided - old models are just fine. You're the one trying to create a new restriction.

Let me rephrase. I think GW need model standardization. It is up to them how anal they want to get about it, but I think within 3mm in height and width is good enough for me.

w1zard wrote:
But no, size still plays a very large part in balance because it decides LOS which can and will turn games under the right circumstances.

Given that LoS is now absolutely two-way (no circumstances other than LoS ignoring weapons where a model can be shot at but can't shoot back as in previous editions) I actually don't think it's nearly as important.

It is now essentially impossible to hide models behind other models (for example the old ork trukk behind a new trukk or battlewagon has no advantage compared to the new model (it can still be shot at and shoot underneath the other vehicles)).

The only interesting interaction really is non-infantry models and scenery - smaller models may receive cover more easily.

Well this topic took a strange turn.

Can we please get back to talking about Primaris Marines?

Once GW have released Codes for the remaining factions (Space Wolves, Orks, and Genestealer Cults) I imagine we will see them release new models for factions. Seeing as they are now including the rules with models, this opens up the option of expanding on the current Codex. If not this, they could do campaign books that expand upon the story and add new models and rules.

Sure it will mean a lot of information spread over pieces of paper, but it is sure better than having to fork out for a new Codex every 3-4 years.

With that in mind this could be what sees the fabled second wave of Primaris Marines. What that brings is anyone's guess, but I think it will be the shot in the arm their range needs, it would be nice to see named Primaris characters for the Chapters, and a dedicated assault squad.

Down the line in a few years time we may see the two types of Marines diverge enough to be spread over two Codxes, one for regular Marines, and one for Primaris. That way GW don't have to add to regular Marines, and can keep their line as a complete range without stepping on the toes of their new Primaris range.

How long till we have Primaris Legion of the Damned models?

Cause who doesn't want LotD in plastic?

 fraser1191 wrote:
How long till we have Primaris Legion of the Damned models?

Cause who doesn't want LotD in plastic?

How would that work?

Would Cawl make insane ghost marines or would they send out some regular primaris looking unsuccessfully for the LotD's fortress monastery?

At some point, since we apparently have Primaris Librarians, there's going to have to be Grey Knight Primaris. And despite all the current moaning about GK, I'd actually be interested in seeing what GW might do with that.

w1zard wrote:

I'm glad at least someone on the other side recognizes the implications instead of simply dismissing them. But no, size still plays a very large part in balance because it decides LOS which can and will turn games under the right circumstances.

But consider that terrain is not standardized either: I could easily just place larger LOS blocking terrain pieces that would also affect the outcome of the game. If everyone were playing with the exact same terrain in the exact same layout all the time then yes you would notice a difference. But when you can't or don't account for the terrain itself, then model size is really a non issue.

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

I'm glad at least someone on the other side recognizes the implications instead of simply dismissing them. But no, size still plays a very large part in balance because it decides LOS which can and will turn games under the right circumstances.

But consider that terrain is not standardized either: I could easily just place larger LOS blocking terrain pieces that would also affect the outcome of the game. If everyone were playing with the exact same terrain in the exact same layout all the time then yes you would notice a difference. But when you can't or don't account for the terrain itself, then model size is really a non issue.

Not even getting to terrain. What if a model is intended to hold a sword up in the air, but I decide I like it pointing forwards instead. This likely does much more to change the profile of the model than sculpts from different generations. Am I not allowed to use this model in matched play now?

As we've all been saying, GW are hobby first, competition second. The rules will never be this restrictive.

Stux wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

I'm glad at least someone on the other side recognizes the implications instead of simply dismissing them. But no, size still plays a very large part in balance because it decides LOS which can and will turn games under the right circumstances.

But consider that terrain is not standardized either: I could easily just place larger LOS blocking terrain pieces that would also affect the outcome of the game. If everyone were playing with the exact same terrain in the exact same layout all the time then yes you would notice a difference. But when you can't or don't account for the terrain itself, then model size is really a non issue.

Not even getting to terrain. What if a model is intended to hold a sword up in the air, but I decide I like it pointing forwards instead. This likely does much more to change the profile of the model than sculpts from different generations. Am I not allowed to use this model in matched play now?

As we've all been saying, GW are hobby first, competition second. The rules will never be this restrictive.

It's definitely violating w1zard's 3mm rule.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Stux wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

I'm glad at least someone on the other side recognizes the implications instead of simply dismissing them. But no, size still plays a very large part in balance because it decides LOS which can and will turn games under the right circumstances.

But consider that terrain is not standardized either: I could easily just place larger LOS blocking terrain pieces that would also affect the outcome of the game. If everyone were playing with the exact same terrain in the exact same layout all the time then yes you would notice a difference. But when you can't or don't account for the terrain itself, then model size is really a non issue.

Not even getting to terrain. What if a model is intended to hold a sword up in the air, but I decide I like it pointing forwards instead. This likely does much more to change the profile of the model than sculpts from different generations. Am I not allowed to use this model in matched play now?

As we've all been saying, GW are hobby first, competition second. The rules will never be this restrictive.

It's definitely violating w1zard's 3mm rule.

I think the best way to achieve what w1zard wants, without encroaching too badly on the historic hobbying aspect, is to simply do away with true line of sight. It causes so many issues anyway, especially for the competitive scene.

Instead we use a system like Malifaux or many other miniatures games where the actual model is purely aesthetic, and all rules instead relate to bases. There are issues to overcome with regards to verticality in these systems, but they are not insurmountable.

It may require debasing of models, but that would be it to create an entirely fair playing field. If GW really wanted to push that, they could make bases really cheap without it hurting their margins overall significantly.

 stonehorse wrote:
Well this topic took a strange turn.

Can we please get back to talking about Primaris Marines?

Sorry, the discussion kind of devolved.

 stonehorse wrote:

Down the line in a few years time we may see the two types of Marines diverge enough to be spread over two Codxes, one for regular Marines, and one for Primaris. That way GW don't have to add to regular Marines, and can keep their line as a complete range without stepping on the toes of their new Primaris range.

No. As I said before in a couple of previous posts, I think regular marines will be phased out at some point. I would be extremely surprised if Primaris Marines and original marines were to get their own codexes. Primaris marines are everything space marines should be in terms of game mechanics. It is far more likely that Primaris Marines will continue to have codex and model releases, and normal space marines just... won't.

w1zard wrote:

Nah, just a simple rule stating that the most current model needs to be used for all datasheets.
I would still expect updating to current models being expected as part of the hobby though.

Please tell me this is sarcasm....

I've got no real issues with Primaris.
The fluff is ok...if a little rushed. But the entire edition was rushed really so I guess you just gotta accept it and use some imagination with it

The models are ok. Certainly better than most that are covered in crap. Or "detail" as others call it.
And I like how allot of regular marine parts fit the primaris models for some fun conversions.

Game wise...ok so they aren't great. And hellblasters seem to be spammed allot and I wish they had more versatility...but...meh.
Like I say this whole edition feels rushed. And new GW hates versatility and individualisation So I guess they just didn't want to bother.

the primaris fluff is more "not fleshed out" rather then rushed. give it a few years for black library to do their thing and that might change

ValentineGames wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Nah, just a simple rule stating that the most current model needs to be used for all datasheets.
I would still expect updating to current models being expected as part of the hobby though.

Please tell me this is sarcasm....

I've got no real issues with Primaris.
The fluff is ok...if a little rushed. But the entire edition was rushed really so I guess you just gotta accept it and use some imagination with it

The models are ok. Certainly better than most that are covered in crap. Or "detail" as others call it.
And I like how allot of regular marine parts fit the primaris models for some fun conversions.

Game wise...ok so they aren't great. And hellblasters seem to be spammed allot and I wish they had more versatility...but...meh.
Like I say this whole edition feels rushed. And new GW hates versatility and individualisation So I guess they just didn't want to bother.

Prior to Roundtree taking the reigns, I think Kirby was planning to replace the current marines with Primaris - less, more standardized options and “better” stat line than original marines. I’m guessing that plan changed, it’s now a more “wait and see if they’re more popular” before GW bites the bullet to phase out classic marines for Primaris. GW may have already invested too much to stop the eventual conversion to Primaris-only, but once they do, I sense a retcon - “yeah, your Primaris? That’s always how the marines have been” will creep in if that occurs. This would actually allow players with old models to use most of their old marines as numarines, rather than a mix of classic and Primaris.

Also, 8E’s narrative took a sharp right turn. Previously, the game was somewhat nillistic - mankind was on the verge of collapse and it was just a question what force - Chaos or xenon - that was going to take them out. With Guilliman’s return and the arrival of Primaris, it very much feels like an Imperium reborn that has a fighting chance to not only rebuild, but wipe away the errors of the past. Definitely, the fluff is ascribing more heroic ideals to the almost formerly oppressive, totalitarian, xenophobic outlook of the Imperium. Personally, I miss the “we’re all doomed, but let’s try to die a heroic, if ultimately futile death” of the old narrative.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

You could use your 3rd edition space marines because they are the same size as current marines... but that old ork trukk absolutely wouldn't fly.

3rd edition marines are absolutely not the same size although they need to be side by side with current marines to see it. How close to the current size is close enough?

No no, they really are the same size. My army has both and there's no difference even side by side. They new kit has some models in slightly different posture, but even there you get greater variation in height by just gluing their torsos on in a more upright position.

Dandelion wrote:
I really don't think that GW's balance is so fine that having a slightly smaller model will actually affect anything.

'Slightly' smaller?



Yup, can't see the size difference at all

Want to see a few more similar comparisons with updated models (even PA models like old Ahriman or DG guys are tiny next to plastic ones) or is that one enough?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

3rd edition marines are absolutely not the same size although they need to be side by side with current marines to see it. How close to the current size is close enough?

No no, they really are the same size. My army has both and there's no difference even side by side.

You might want to buy a new glasses then because 3rd edition one (barely taller than the lime green thing) is absolutely not the same size as modern plastic marine:



And most recent PA marines, Death Watch and Thousand Sons, both are taller than even BA ones. Same size you say? New plastics are as big as metal terminators pictured above!

Banville wrote:
What you're suggesting is the death of the hobby side of things and the enforced obsolescence of a huge tract of models. Did you pay any attention at all to the reception AoS had? It almost bankrupted the company and made the brand so toxic that only a very good 8th edition 40k has managed to turn it around. I'd be surprised if the entire AoS range sold as much as Space Marines alone. And that's where you want to go.

Uh, no. That was myth AoS haters spread. Not only AoS considerably outsold Fantasy (to be fair, wasn't exactly hard with how terrible Fantasy sales were) even at the start, a good number of AoS models were in the list of GW bestsellers:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/672927.page

Out of 28 best selling items, 1 was LotR, 6 were AoS, 18 were 40K, rest were bundled sets. Gee, 1/3 sales of GW's flagship behemoth (and that right in the middle of period where Gladius, War Convocation, and the rest of the broken gak were driving up sales of basic kits, accounting for 'success' of 12 of 40K units on the above list) sure sounds terrible, eh?

To add to above, the loudest anti-AoS whiners were also the people who were buying the least in vast majority of cases, so it's absolutely shocking GW instead of beating long dead horse went for refresh that at least gave them chance to grow the business somewhat in the future. Especially due to the fact such pesky and unimportant things as play time, ease of pickup and entry, and rules not being a mountain of overcomplicated grandfathered in junk were all significantly shifted towards attracting new players. What a dumb strategy!

^Look at the base, not the head. There's your size difference. If you put them in the same bases like I did, they are identical.

That "Space Marine sizes" picture is extremely dishonest - putting cultists on the far left (who are mere humans and not the supposedly 8' marines) and terminators on the right (who are in considerably more bulky armor in the first place).

I've got over 400 space marines ranging from RT-01 to marines bought as part of Kill Team just before 8th dropped. The size difference between them all is not noticeable.

Now, purely looking at terminators over the ages is a different story...

Those RTB 01 guys are definitely smaller. But that won't stop me from using them!

 Irbis wrote:
snip

A fair point. I was initially thinking of the old vs new marine idea, which I still think would not make a noticeable difference for gameplay. But yeah, that is quite the difference, which would impact piling in, LOS and terrain. Tho I've been told on this site that terrain doesn't do anything anyway.

As for the space marines scale, I have some marines from 3rd and some newer ones and they are roughly the same size. I say roughly because I haven't actually measured them. They actually blend in very well. Tho the new Chaos units and Deathwatch are noticeably taller. (unless the deathwatch are built from the standard marine kit, which means mixing heights is legal and supported I guess)

 Stormonu wrote:

Also, 8E’s narrative took a sharp right turn. Previously, the game was somewhat nillistic - mankind was on the verge of collapse and it was just a question what force - Chaos or xenon - that was going to take them out. With Guilliman’s return and the arrival of Primaris, it very much feels like an Imperium reborn that has a fighting chance to not only rebuild, but wipe away the errors of the past. Definitely, the fluff is ascribing more heroic ideals to the almost formerly oppressive, totalitarian, xenophobic outlook of the Imperium. Personally, I miss the “we’re all doomed, but let’s try to die a heroic, if ultimately futile death” of the old narrative.

You're assuming the current narrative is permanent.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

Also, 8E’s narrative took a sharp right turn. Previously, the game was somewhat nillistic - mankind was on the verge of collapse and it was just a question what force - Chaos or xenon - that was going to take them out. With Guilliman’s return and the arrival of Primaris, it very much feels like an Imperium reborn that has a fighting chance to not only rebuild, but wipe away the errors of the past. Definitely, the fluff is ascribing more heroic ideals to the almost formerly oppressive, totalitarian, xenophobic outlook of the Imperium. Personally, I miss the “we’re all doomed, but let’s try to die a heroic, if ultimately futile death” of the old narrative.

You're assuming the current narrative is permanent.

He's also missing a lotta the details, yes we see a lot of fluffed imperium victories but thats been the case for ages. when you look at the state of the galaxy though the IoM is fethed harder then it'd ever been