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They published the disintegrator. None of that matters anymore. It melts all marines. It turns out marines needed to be 3 wounds.

Martel732 wrote:
They published the disintegrator. None of that matters anymore. It melts all marines. It turns out marines needed to be 3 wounds.

Don't forget plasma spam being the answer to everything. Primaris get caught in the crossfire of the arms race.

So what if it is one big troll?
They become unstable since a Mechanicus was trying to make use of a science only the Emperor knew, plus a few liberties taken here or there.
They all turn on the Empire and everyone.
Which was Cawl's plan all along for the rise of the Cult of the Dragon and he was using the Guardians of the Dragon's DNA to enhance the Primaris marines he was developing.
The time is ripe with all the chaos to bring the one and true god to glory, all hail Mag'ladroth (Void Dragon) sallying forth from Noctis Labyrinthus!
It took some time to "corrupt" the "Lords Dragon" but they too fell in line as they saw how much the warp has taken over reality and with it, the passing of Adept Dalia.
Especially the Necrons can feel his power only to be swept away from his might!

(This scenario is all made up but all the "facts" of names and groups are true to mechanicus fiction).

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Noooooope. People would be upset regardless

Bingo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
...2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Word. Each unit at present does one thing, some of them do the one thing well and some don't. Bringing in the option to build a squad to do different things the way Space Marines should would be a huge improvement.

(The Deathwatch make-all-the-rifles-incredibly-good method seems to be a brute-force solution that doesn't really help in the long run since everyone's still horribly inflexible and short on anti-vehicle options; an effective melee option (two 4+-to-hit powerfist attacks walking 5" a turn or three S4/AP-/D1 attacks don't scare anything in melee) might help, too.)

*Laughs in Aspect Warrior*

Even aspect warriors have more tactical flexibility than primaris marines, outside of Dire Avengers and Swooping hawks.

Primaris don't need customization. The Deathwatch codex partially proved this with Intercessors. You make them offensively viable and suddenly you're not AS concerned about Multi-Damage weapons, and Raven Guard Aggressors certainly don't need any help and are arguably one of the better glass cannons available. Dark Angels Hellblasters are pretty good just for the Strategem alone. If you want Plasma Guns in your Intercessor squads, Deathwatch has you covered.

What customization do you really need in the end? Yeah I'd like to take a Power Fist on an Intercessor Sergeant, but the truth is I'll never take it.


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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They published the disintegrator. None of that matters anymore. It melts all marines. It turns out marines needed to be 3 wounds.

Don't forget plasma spam being the answer to everything. Primaris get caught in the crossfire of the arms race.

Which is the fault of Dark Eldar, Scions, and such. This isn't the situation where you can blame Tactical Marines only appearing bad because of Power creep as they were always bad.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Anyone else disappointed with the direction Primaris are going in. I love the Primaris marines, they are true scale, the models are great, they look more realistic and less static, the only thing I don't like are the knee pads but you can't have everything. Love the look of the aggressors and the Inceptors, but I'm worried that gravis armour taking over terminators, loved terminator armour since 2nd edition and that gravis captain looks terrible, I also don't want to see inceptors taking over jump pack models. I don't want to get into the whole argument of whether Primaris are going to replace normal marines, to me its obvious they are.

I'm basically right with you on all of this, in terms of loving the new models, but worrying that old models like Rhinos or jump packs could be abandoned in favor of what are, objectively, less-good designs.

I do differ on the pace and totality with which everyone thinks Primaris are meant to replace "regular" space marines though. GW tends to get in a rut, where one army sells so much that they want to release new "sure sales" items for that army. And eventually, that army has such an embarrassment of riches that they don't know what to do. In Age of Sigmar, when this has happened, they've "opened a new warrior chamber" and suddenly, presto, Stormcast on dragons. Then they opened another chamber, and now there's Stormcasts on puma-chickens with boltpistols. Now they're opening yet another chamber, and now there's wizards and warmachines and puma-dragons. (somebody should tell Sigmar he can't solve all of his problems by opening another warrior chamber)

And, when each one roles out, GW promotes the heck out of them and depicts them a ton in the books. But, at least as far as I can tell, they have no intention for Stormcast on puma-dragons to replace Stormcast on boring old dragons, or cutty-axe-with-robe Stormcast to replace slammy-hammer-with-no-robe Stormcast. They just wanted more of the best selling army to sell.

To that end, I'm assuming Primaris are just another warrior chamber they've opened, in hope of selling something new to marine players who already have everything. It's just that their rules are so middling that few can find a tactical reason to field them over the mundane but flexible old marines.

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Noooooope. People would be upset regardless

Oh GW knew the amount of salt that people having to buy their entire marine army all over again would cause, which is why they didn't do it. I was saying that it was the cleanest solution no matter how many marine players were upset.

The current tactical marine statline doesn't work in 8th edition. Marines should have the current parimaris statline (appropriately pointed of course) and primaris marines shouldn't exist.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Maybe if a given fluff showdown is such an obvious foregone conclusion that theres absolutely no tension in it whatsoever and your fanbase is just going to turn it into a huge joke, it's a better idea to come up with a different narrative.

Right, death of Superman #124565, Failbaddon's Black Crusades, Eldar Avatar Fight With Big Hero Character, etc?

The main problem with the 40k Fanbase is they don't know the background, just the jokes and the memes. Just take a look in the 40k background forum and start counting people with bad or wrong information.

And this is a setting for a game. There can't be tension, because the status quo needs to stay more or less the same. So any narrative you come up with is doomed to fail for the handful of people who actually read it.

I agree. Heck most of the people who claim the Primaris Lore "sucks" proably don't know anything more then the cliff notes version. I mean for god's sake I've actually seen people suggest TTS is a good source to learn the setting! If TTS is your primary source for all things 40k you might be in trouble given it's something of a parody that pushes some of the more annoying memes out there

Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

Primaris marines are what got me to start collecting marines, and I've been playing 40k since 2nd edition.

Their line isn't fully fleshed out as GW want them to be fielded alongside regular marines. They are loyalist cult marine equivalent. A full Primaris force can be fielded, but it will struggle as they don't have a big enough tool box.

As time goes on I think we will see a lot more Primaris releases, (hopefully a small transport and a bike squad) as the regular marines had reached a point where there was nothing else that could be done with their bloated line. I honestly think that the dreadful centurion models show this and that GW are all too aware of how idiotic they are.

Hence why we now have the Primaris Marines.

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

That's not true. The Space Marine Heroes kits that have come out recently (albeit limited to Japan) were released after Primaris and the second wave is Terminators and is coming soon.

There haven't been any general release regular Space Marine kits since Primaris. But then again, there haven't been any Primaris kits short of the two Lieutenant kits for the Angels, Primaris Upgrade kits, and boxes with Primaris Upgrade kits. There probably won't be any Primaris kits for some time. Though one has to wonder what will happen once Space Wolves hit. No Space Marines for an extended period of time is pretty unusual. Perhaps an expansion to the codex with more kits in it is a possibility.

Ok fair enough, though I believe Heroes aren't actually produced by GW. Rather they're produced under licence by another manufacturer, which is why they are exclusive to Japan.

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

Like what though? You won't get other Armor MKs until another Horus Heresy board game, and there aren't many units you can add without some people throwing a hissy fit like they did with Centurions (which honestly weren't bad and needed minimum work to look good).

Tell me: what kit?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

Like what though? You won't get other Armor MKs until another Horus Heresy board game, and there aren't many units you can add without some people throwing a hissy fit like they did with Centurions (which honestly weren't bad and needed minimum work to look good).

Tell me: what kit?

That's exactly my point though. Old style marines are played out. GW have to release new kits constantly to remain viable as a miniatures company, and have to encourage people to buy those new kits. There's tons of scope to expand on Primaris though, so that's what Marines will be about for the next decade or something until they need something new again.

Just off the top of my head for obvious Primaris kits still to come:

Characters:
Inceptor captain
Inceptor chaplain
Inceptor librarian
Gravis chaplain
Gravis librarian

Infantry:
Melee Inceptors (I'm imagining power lances and storm shields, for jet pack jousting, but that is unlikely!)
Hellblasters with non-plasma weapons (tons of scope here)
Reivers with full melee/power weapon loadout

Vehicles:
Primaris APC
Primaris drop pod
Alternate Redemptors eh Ironclad, Mortis, or character style ones

And that's without much thought and not including any chapter specific options, which we'll surely get.

Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Which is essentially the problem with the "Primaris will replace Marines" idiocy.

- Games Workshop came out explicitly saying they'll continue to have old marines
- Games Workshop purposefully wrote the background to make mix-old-Primaris-Marines possible
- Games Workshop has since consistently marketes mix-old-Primaris-Marines in the background, army shots, etc..


And than the lobotomized part of the customer-base thinks GW is doing it wrong because it isn't marketing Primaris in line with their own debunked tin-foil-hat nonesense theory of what they think Primaris are all about in the business, the background or both.

Fair points all, but until we get a new non-Primaris kit I'm still on the side that the days of old marines are numbered. No saying it'll happen tomorrow, could be years. But to me the overall direction they currently
(they could of course change their plans, especially if there's another change of leadership!) intends looks fairly clear.

Like what though? You won't get other Armor MKs until another Horus Heresy board game, and there aren't many units you can add without some people throwing a hissy fit like they did with Centurions (which honestly weren't bad and needed minimum work to look good).

Tell me: what kit?

That's exactly my point though. Old style marines are played out. GW have to release new kits constantly to remain viable as a miniatures company, and have to encourage people to buy those new kits. There's tons of scope to expand on Primaris though, so that's what Marines will be about for the next decade or something until they need something new again.

Just off the top of my head for obvious Primaris kits still to come:

Characters:
Inceptor captain
Inceptor chaplain
Inceptor librarian
Gravis chaplain
Gravis librarian

Infantry:
Melee Inceptors (I'm imagining power lances and storm shields, for jet pack jousting, but that is unlikely!)
Hellblasters with non-plasma weapons (tons of scope here)
Reivers with full melee/power weapon loadout

Vehicles:
Primaris APC
Primaris drop pod
Alternate Redemptors eh Ironclad, Mortis, or character style ones

And that's without much thought and not including any chapter specific options, which we'll surely get.

So your logic being that, if they're not continuously releasing regular Marines, they're gonna discontinue them?

They weren't discontinued because Mk3-4 became plastic and Terninators weren't discontinued because Tar and Cat armors were released. You're grasping at straws.

It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

I love Primaris! It got me back in the game, can't wait for all the new units we're going to get

I have a strong suspicion that Primaris was one of Kirby’s last projects, and it was too far along for Roundtree to stop - but he didn’t need to push once they were out.

I believe the idea behind the Primaris was both to power up and simplify marines. The former being to address complaints that mArines were too easy to dispatch. The latter being an effort to cut down on decision paralysis/excess model bits in the kits.

Right now, classic marines have a ton of gear and weapon options - far beyond what any other faction has available in their kits (Most have two build options and two basic weapon options, with maybe three special weapon options - disregarding Imp guard). The new Primaris kits (not the ez-build) seem to have that same limited palette. While veterans to the game probably strongly dislike the limit on weapon choices, it makes it a lot easier for newcomers to put together a unit if they only have an either-or choice.

Personally, I just got into Primaris this last week, with a discount purchase of Dark Imperium. I’m yet to be impressed with them, but I do hope against hope we won’t see the Primaris replace classic marines - but I fear we will.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

But centurions are designated heavy weapon platforms and terminator armors have "pros" and "cons" totally different scenario

Frankly I love my Primaris but it feels as though they were designed for 7th.
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Sv3+
S4 Ap4 30" Bolt rifle
Ooo yeah I'd pay 100pts for that squad

Ehhh, I always thought centurions were a “sneaky-sneaky’ attempt by GW to fix terminators (maybe as a trial run), that just didn’t take, despite how everyone loves to rag how bad Terminators are.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

But centurions are designated heavy weapon platforms and terminator armors have "pros" and "cons" totally different scenario

Also, I fully expect Primaris style rescaled Terminators at some point!


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 Stormonu wrote:
Ehhh, I always thought centurions were a “sneaky-sneaky’ attempt by GW to fix terminators (maybe as a trial run), that just didn’t take, despite how everyone loves to rag how bad Terminators are.

The difference being the people love the idea and general aesthetic of Terminators. People WANT Terminators to be good, even if they haven't been for... Arguably decades?

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

But centurions are designated heavy weapon platforms and terminator armors have "pros" and "cons" totally different scenario

Frankly I love my Primaris but it feels as though they were designed for 7th.
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Sv3+
S4 Ap4 30" Bolt rifle
Ooo yeah I'd pay 100pts for that squad

And Primaris have pros and cons to the rest of the codex as well. So that argument falls flat.

Stux wrote:

Also, I fully expect Primaris style rescaled Terminators at some point!

Isn't that basically what Gravis armor is?

I think the lack of adoption mostly comes down to a couple key issues:

- Repulsors aren't effective enough to be their only transport option.
- Much like the rest of the Space Marine codex; being very tied to Guillimen makes them feel suboptimal outside of Ultramarines and while everyone likes Space Marines, most don't necessarily seem to want them to be blue.

 LunarSol wrote:

Stux wrote:

Also, I fully expect Primaris style rescaled Terminators at some point!

Isn't that basically what Gravis armor is?

I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but in my opinion no.

Gravis is a rig for attaching specialised equipment, it's about delivering specialised systems to the battlefield. Terminator armour is more tactical elite combat. It is for first response, and the ability to survive and react to the enemy.

So aesthetic, mechanics, and lore are all distinct in my opinion.

On top of all that, I think as a design GW will want to preserve the IP. Terminators are iconic basically! But they could be much better proportioned


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 LunarSol wrote:


I think the lack of adoption mostly comes down to a couple key issues:

- Repulsors aren't effective enough to be their only transport option.
- Much like the rest of the Space Marine codex; being very tied to Guillimen makes them feel suboptimal outside of Ultramarines and while everyone likes Space Marines, most don't necessarily seem to want them to be blue.

Agreed, but this will improve as more Primarchs are released. I also hope that we will get an alternative transport vehicle for Primaris eventually. Hover rhino or what have you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

But centurions are designated heavy weapon platforms and terminator armors have "pros" and "cons" totally different scenario

Frankly I love my Primaris but it feels as though they were designed for 7th.
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Sv3+
S4 Ap4 30" Bolt rifle
Ooo yeah I'd pay 100pts for that squad

And Primaris have pros and cons to the rest of the codex as well. So that argument falls flat.

I don't disagree with you.
Every unit should have its pros and cons though
Tacs: more options, can be outfitted for any task
Intercessors: harder hitting base weapon and more "durability" (and that's a pretty hard stretch)

I wish Gravis Marines had three wounds then they would be perfect.

What I want GW to do is put on their big-boy panties and admit their mistake.

Retcon Primaris Marines as only having new equipment, rather than making them Mary Sue Super-Dooper-Chadmarines, and make all the "old" squad loadouts use the Intercessor Statline and base price, with maybe Scouts alone keeping their old 1W statline.

Re-make the old loadouts in Primaris Scale and be done with it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What I want GW to do is put on their big-boy panties and admit their mistake.

Retcon Primaris Marines as only having new equipment, rather than making them Mary Sue Super-Dooper-Chadmarines, and make all the "old" squad loadouts use the Intercessor Statline and base price, with maybe Scouts alone keeping their old 1W statline.

Re-make the old loadouts in Primaris Scale and be done with it.

Umm I'd rather not have GW retcon that just because you don't like the new lore. I'd rather GW simply put out more lore, you can't expect to really judge something based off 2 paragraphs of text. standard marines would be pretty mary sue at the same time too

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What I want GW to do is put on their big-boy panties and admit their mistake.

Retcon Primaris Marines as only having new equipment, rather than making them Mary Sue Super-Dooper-Chadmarines, and make all the "old" squad loadouts use the Intercessor Statline and base price, with maybe Scouts alone keeping their old 1W statline.

Re-make the old loadouts in Primaris Scale and be done with it.

This. They are going to phase out oldmarines eventually, might as well rip the band-aid off and get it over with.