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Sunny Side Up wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
The models are great but the fluff is woeful.

If GW just said 'we are phasing out the old range and updating it' I would be more on board with it.

I think GW got really hyped and bought a bit too much into their own grox gak and when the community didn't respond the way they wanted us to the Primaris release stalled due to uncertainty on profitability.

Just my 2p.

What stalled?

GW was releasing rumour pics for the current Soul Wars Age of Sigmar stuff from before Dark Imperium / 8th Ed. hit the stores.

Whatever GW is releasing now for 40K was planned and in production before the community even knew there was such a thing as a "Primaris".

If GW "stalls"/rolls-back the Primaris production based on the first year of sales, we won't actually see evidence of that in their releases until late 2019 or more likely 2020

If I remember correctly, apologies but I don't have a citation to hand, GW themselves stated that Primaris uptake was not meeting their expectations.

As an aside, that super heavy for them done by FW is a monstrosity. Even the Taurox is acceptable when put side by side to it.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

If I remember correctly, apologies but I don't have a citation to hand, GW themselves stated that Primaris uptake was not meeting their expectations.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything verified to that effect. All I've seen that could indicate how they're performing is the rocketing GW stock.

IF there are issues with Primaris kit sales, one factor might be the prevalence of easy build equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if the £25 5-man intercessor kit doesn't sell too well when you can get the guys from Dark Imperium on eBay for half that. Same deal with there being a £25 and £40 Redemptor kit. The more expensive one is frankly an incredible kit, but still that price difference...

Basically them undercutting themselves I could easily see as being more of an issue than any negative reaction to the models.

Stux wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

If I remember correctly, apologies but I don't have a citation to hand, GW themselves stated that Primaris uptake was not meeting their expectations.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything verified to that effect. All I've seen that could indicate how they're performing is the rocketing GW stock.

IF there are issues with Primaris kit sales, one factor might be the prevalence of easy build equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if the £25 5-man intercessor kit doesn't sell too well when you can get the guys from Dark Imperium on eBay for half that. Same deal with there being a £25 and £40 Redemptor kit. The more expensive one is frankly an incredible kit, but still that price difference...

Basically them undercutting themselves I could easily see as being more of an issue than any negative reaction to the models.

AoS and 8th edition are what are more likely to be driving the sales/earnings more than the what 10 primaris kits.
By all accounts 8th edition has seen player numbers rise substantially compaired to previous editions. AoS had a bad launch followed by better performance once the hurt for old world died down and the general's handbooks dropped.

But yeah the multiple choice for the same unit is another thing that makes it look like GW hasn't been clear with it's design intent for primaris marines.

As models they look nice as another unit in the marine codex they are rather meh. Fluff wise they are a disaster, Belisarious Cawl the 40k imperial answer to a wizard did it.

Ice_can wrote:

Stux wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

If I remember correctly, apologies but I don't have a citation to hand, GW themselves stated that Primaris uptake was not meeting their expectations.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything verified to that effect. All I've seen that could indicate how they're performing is the rocketing GW stock.

IF there are issues with Primaris kit sales, one factor might be the prevalence of easy build equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if the £25 5-man intercessor kit doesn't sell too well when you can get the guys from Dark Imperium on eBay for half that. Same deal with there being a £25 and £40 Redemptor kit. The more expensive one is frankly an incredible kit, but still that price difference...

Basically them undercutting themselves I could easily see as being more of an issue than any negative reaction to the models.

AoS and 8th edition are what are more likely to be driving the sales/earnings more than the what 10 primaris kits.
By all accounts 8th edition has seen player numbers rise substantially compaired to previous editions. AoS had a bad launch followed by better performance once the hurt for old world died down and the general's handbooks dropped.

But yeah the multiple choice for the same unit is another thing that makes it look like GW hasn't been clear with it's design intent for primaris marines.

As models they look nice as another unit in the marine codex they are rather meh. Fluff wise they are a disaster, Belisarious Cawl the 40k imperial answer to a wizard did it.

Sure, we can't say from stock rising that Primaris are doing well. But if it's only data we have, we can probably infer they aren't doing too terribly with how much attention GW has been giving them.

Also I feel there is a bit too much stock put on the fluff of Primaris with regards to how it might affect sales. Sure there are several people on here pretty mad about it, but honestly most people I speak either think it's fine, or just don't care about the fluff. The old guard who just want to play with their old scale marines and don't want to buy much are generally most down on it, whereas the newer players who are collecting an army from scratch don't seem phased at all by it. And I imagine the latter group are spending the most money here.

I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

'The Primaris Heresy' does have a certain ring to it

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

I'm hoping not.

Anyways, a big problem with the Primaris stuff is that it's similar to 30k: units are either too specialized or too generalized to really have a place, especially when those specialized units can't really perform their role.

Reivers are a good example of this--LD debuffing units that aren't great at assault and have such a small range for their LD debuff that they have to assault.
Inceptors are the opposite of this--they're a mid/short range gunfighter unit with high mobility that can take some mean weapons.

I think GW needs to pick one of the all primaris chapters to be their primaris poster boys (i.e. The ultramarine of primaris) and to push the standalone army aspect. Start with Black Library and perhaps an upgrade sprue. When they are ready for the next round of primaris models have them be the main chapter in the codex.

To me, the mix of big and little marines looks weird and gamey.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

for those claiming the Primaris fluff is bad I have a question... What fluff? Primaris Marines are still pretty new and ave only appered in what 2 novels thus far? Not sure we can truely judge weather it's bad or not yet. we should give GW some time to develop this first

The proplem with Primaris at the moment is that they do not seem to have any direction each unit is going in: the assult versions of most guns don't have any benefit other than advance-and fire and 8 more inches of 2 shots(And the assault plasma is just bad, needing supercharge to be at normal str with double damage is going to lose models quickly, especially while advancing).

Heavy variants are mediocre, gaining barely any range and losing even the potential forba second shot(the plasma isn't as bad but still needs to supercharge for the extra damage)

Inceptors fast moving-close shooting is alright with the assault bolter but the plasma exterminater still costs too much for what is invariably less shots.

Aggressor rules are just all over the place.

Rievers seem ok, but as mentiined earlier are a bit slow for assault troops.

All the characters are fine, many are straight upgrades to the normal versions. Except for the gravis armour captain, way to slow for the melee he so desperately wants to be in and even then it will be rare that you don't use the master-crafted sword.

The vehicles suffer from too many guns; this isn't the worst, but it does make them very expensive points-wise.

Some future fixes to all of the above issues would be fairly simple:
1) change the wargear options from All models in the unit to any models in the unit. This is the edition where models can mostly act independently of the unit as a whole(moving and targeting) locking a whole unit into the same guns does not make any sense.
2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

You're right, sorry I'll revise to the current GW narrative path.

Robute guillimans heroic primaris marines continue to beat all the baddies of the galaxy every saturday at 9!

Rotigus and the bad sloppity bilepiper have come up with a new plan to make everyone into zombies! Oh no! Wait, here comes Robute gilliman and his pals, Cawl and don't forget Saint Celestine (because girls can be sidekicks heroes too!

Trazyn the Skeltal has another wacky scheme to kidnap our heroes and steal all the important artifacts! Belarius Carl is going to have to figure out a super-smart solution to get out of this jam!

The blood angels are in real trouble this time as the tyranids are attacking baal! Boom! Crash! The baddies almost win, but then Robert Gilliam comes in to save the day with his primaris ultra-heroes!

Tune in next time kids to ADVENTURES IN WARHAMMER oh god its not even a joke anymore

They are going nowhere with as common as Dam 2 weapons are.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
...2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Word. Each unit at present does one thing, some of them do the one thing well and some don't. Bringing in the option to build a squad to do different things the way Space Marines should would be a huge improvement.

(The Deathwatch make-all-the-rifles-incredibly-good method seems to be a brute-force solution that doesn't really help in the long run since everyone's still horribly inflexible and short on anti-vehicle options; an effective melee option (two 4+-to-hit powerfist attacks walking 5" a turn or three S4/AP-/D1 attacks don't scare anything in melee) might help, too.)

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

You're right, sorry I'll revise to the current GW narrative path.

Robute guillimans heroic primaris marines continue to beat all the baddies of the galaxy every saturday at 9!

Rotigus and the bad sloppity bilepiper have come up with a new plan to make everyone into zombies! Oh no! Wait, here comes Robute gilliman and his pals, Cawl and don't forget Saint Celestine (because girls can be sidekicks heroes too!

Trazyn the Skeltal has another wacky scheme to kidnap our heroes and steal all the important artifacts! Belarius Carl is going to have to figure out a super-smart solution to get out of this jam!

The blood angels are in real trouble this time as the tyranids are attacking baal! Boom! Crash! The baddies almost win, but then Robert Gilliam comes in to save the day with his primaris ultra-heroes!

Tune in next time kids to ADVENTURES IN WARHAMMER oh god its not even a joke anymore

except this isn't any differant from how 40k has ALWAYS been.

the primaris Marines aren't winning great battles in a setting where previously we where told "nope space marines never win" In the case of the blood angels. the Blood Angels ahd already WON by time Gulliman showed up. The only thing Gulliman did was help clean up and gift the Blood Angels Primaris Marines. Did you think they should have killed the blood angels off? go on and tell a blood angel player you think they should have just gotten ridda their army. please.

The FAQ already told us that.

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I know how to get GW out of this mess...

Perhaps a terrible Primaris gene flaw will be discovered in the lore and they'll all die out

You're welcome GW

I'm seriously hoping for a second heresy.

Cawl reveals that he's got mind control chips in all the primaris marines and primaris-ized characters, gets on a communicator and goes "Execute order 66...THOUSAND" in a gravelly voice, all the primaris marines mass in a strike to try and kill off the original marines, Robute and the Emperor, and Robute ends up in a campaign where he has to work with the most distasteful elements of the modern imperium. Give him, say, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars to work with, all the religious zealots and mutants and most gene-flawed chapters against the "perfect" image of marines he'd thought would be the galaxy's salvation.

Robute begins losing the campaign, badly, Cawl's forces closing in on Terra and Robute gets ready for a heroic last stand to sacrifice himself for the emperor. But in a twist, emps teleports Robute and his forces out of harms way into the Imperium Nihilus along with all the Custodes, and Cypher's prison door opens.

Now we open on a new chapter, the emperor dead (but on his own terms and by Cypher's blade - was that his plan all along?), the imperium in full civil war between the hyper-logical followers of the omnissiah and Guilliman's faithful, who have begun worshipping him as a god despite all his wishes. Strangely, however, the technology of the forces led by Guilliman does not fail, and Guilliman begins to display abilities that defy his own logical mind, and what initially seems like it should be an impossibly one-sided war becomes a full scale conflict.

If you think GW's Primaris fluff is bad and you just wrote that, you cannot be a judge.

You're right, sorry I'll revise to the current GW narrative path.

Robute guillimans heroic primaris marines continue to beat all the baddies of the galaxy every saturday at 9!

Rotigus and the bad sloppity bilepiper have come up with a new plan to make everyone into zombies! Oh no! Wait, here comes Robute gilliman and his pals, Cawl and don't forget Saint Celestine (because girls can be sidekicks heroes too!

Trazyn the Skeltal has another wacky scheme to kidnap our heroes and steal all the important artifacts! Belarius Carl is going to have to figure out a super-smart solution to get out of this jam!

The blood angels are in real trouble this time as the tyranids are attacking baal! Boom! Crash! The baddies almost win, but then Robert Gilliam comes in to save the day with his primaris ultra-heroes!

Tune in next time kids to ADVENTURES IN WARHAMMER oh god its not even a joke anymore

except this isn't any differant from how 40k has ALWAYS been.

the primaris Marines aren't winning great battles in a setting where previously we where told "nope space marines never win" In the case of the blood angels. the Blood Angels ahd already WON by time Gulliman showed up. The only thing Gulliman did was help clean up and gift the Blood Angels Primaris Marines. Did you think they should have killed the blood angels off? go on and tell a blood angel player you think they should have just gotten ridda their army. please.

I was just about to say insert Martel Eeyore fatalism joke here about blood angels already being dead but I've been beaten to the punch.

GW took aim at Nids and killed BA instead. Glorious.

Martel732 wrote:
The FAQ already told us that.

Somehow I knew you where going to respond with that

except that's not the case Martel. Your army may or may not be ineffective, but it still exists as a force, you can count on new models, new codices etc. Now imagine if GW decided to wipe out the sons of Sanguinious and said "yeah they're dead so we're not putting out any special rules for them. use the index for support for them, but no Primaris Marines and new future updates" that'd be a biiig differance and I imagine it'd be a bit of a turn off.

Maybe if a given fluff showdown is such an obvious foregone conclusion that theres absolutely no tension in it whatsoever and your fanbase is just going to turn it into a huge joke, it's a better idea to come up with a different narrative.

Right, death of Superman #124565, Failbaddon's Black Crusades, Eldar Avatar Fight With Big Hero Character, etc?

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The FAQ already told us that.

Somehow I knew you where going to respond with that

except that's not the case Martel. Your army may or may not be ineffective, but it still exists as a force, you can count on new models, new codices etc. Now imagine if GW decided to wipe out the sons of Sanguinious and said "yeah they're dead so we're not putting out any special rules for them. use the index for support for them, but no Primaris Marines and new future updates" that'd be a biiig differance and I imagine it'd be a bit of a turn off.

That would actually be pretty liberating.

the_scotsman wrote:
Maybe if a given fluff showdown is such an obvious foregone conclusion that theres absolutely no tension in it whatsoever and your fanbase is just going to turn it into a huge joke, it's a better idea to come up with a different narrative.

Right, death of Superman #124565, Failbaddon's Black Crusades, Eldar Avatar Fight With Big Hero Character, etc?

There's a difference between wanting some of the worst of what GW had done, and wanting what you suggest, which, in my opinion, does a disservice to the potential of Primaris lore.

I don't want generic "Guilliman beats everything, wowza!" (even though, strategically, and aphysically as a Primarch, there's very little that should be able to match him, barring other Primarchs/Daemon Lords), or "Emperor teleports Guilliman and there's ANOTHER Imperial civil war!".

I like neither.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
...2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Word. Each unit at present does one thing, some of them do the one thing well and some don't. Bringing in the option to build a squad to do different things the way Space Marines should would be a huge improvement.

(The Deathwatch make-all-the-rifles-incredibly-good method seems to be a brute-force solution that doesn't really help in the long run since everyone's still horribly inflexible and short on anti-vehicle options; an effective melee option (two 4+-to-hit powerfist attacks walking 5" a turn or three S4/AP-/D1 attacks don't scare anything in melee) might help, too.)

*Laughs in Aspect Warrior*

the_scotsman wrote:
Maybe if a given fluff showdown is such an obvious foregone conclusion that theres absolutely no tension in it whatsoever and your fanbase is just going to turn it into a huge joke, it's a better idea to come up with a different narrative.

Right, death of Superman #124565, Failbaddon's Black Crusades, Eldar Avatar Fight With Big Hero Character, etc?

The main problem with the 40k Fanbase is they don't know the background, just the jokes and the memes. Just take a look in the 40k background forum and start counting people with bad or wrong information.

And this is a setting for a game. There can't be tension, because the status quo needs to stay more or less the same. So any narrative you come up with is doomed to fail for the handful of people who actually read it.

Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Their fluff doesn't matter, as long as their crunch is terrible.

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Noooooope. People would be upset regardless

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
...2) giving some Tactical wargear options to Intersessors. As it stands right now the Troops can only really fight other infantry.

Word. Each unit at present does one thing, some of them do the one thing well and some don't. Bringing in the option to build a squad to do different things the way Space Marines should would be a huge improvement.

(The Deathwatch make-all-the-rifles-incredibly-good method seems to be a brute-force solution that doesn't really help in the long run since everyone's still horribly inflexible and short on anti-vehicle options; an effective melee option (two 4+-to-hit powerfist attacks walking 5" a turn or three S4/AP-/D1 attacks don't scare anything in melee) might help, too.)

*Laughs in Aspect Warrior*

Even aspect warriors have more tactical flexibility than primaris marines, outside of Dire Avengers and Swooping hawks.

Martel732 wrote:
Their fluff doesn't matter, as long as their crunch is terrible.

I can't decide if their crunch is terrible because they used the base marine stats for primaris and then built this weird double teir codex that just doesn't work or they created the wierd codex because they couldn't decide if marines should be 1 or 2 wounds and decided to take both options.