What do you think would have happened if the Emperor told mankind about the Chaos gods. The Imperium has no capability anymore in 40k to hide the existence of chaos since the daemon invasion on Terra, though we have yet to see if there are serious implications due to that. If the Emperor did that at the beginning would the Primarchs have still gone Chaos or would the Horus Heresy even have happened at all, or would it have been a slam dunk for Chaos. I think that Chaos foresaw that the Emperor would betray them, as it would have been so much easier for the Horus Heresy to happen if the Emperor kept it a secret, but what if he didn't. I don't think that the Emperor is working for chaos as he is thought of by many as being the chaos god of balance but still interesting to think. I don't want to debate on whether or not the Emperor actually made a deal with chaos though as there is another thread about that at the moment, but its a free country.
imo: the heresy would have happened either way. Perhaps the emperor for-saw a betrayal manipulated by Chaos and was attempting to prevent his armies from coming into contact with them in the first place - waiting until his empire was secure before he dealt with the forces of chaos head-on.
Since we don't know what he promised we can't really guess.
It might have been the souls of half his and one. So chaos ended up collecting anyway.
And even if he had bothered tellng his primarchs it wouldn't have saved most of them. Angron would still have been angry, horus dissillisioned, Magnus overconfident etc..
Or it might have and Chaos would find another way in.
Whilst fanfic/ AU ideas we can't properly speculate.
pm713 wrote: The Imperium can very much hide the existence of Chaos still and the Emperor isn't a Chaos God of balance in any way.
Didn't say he was. The Imperium can't anymore, its just an amount of time before every planet knows.
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Earth127 wrote: Since we don't know what he promised we can't really guess.
It might have been the souls of half his and one. So chaos ended up collecting anyway.
And even if he had bothered tellng his primarchs it wouldn't have saved most of them. Angron would still have been angry, horus dissillisioned, Magnus overconfident etc..
Or it might have and Chaos would find another way in.
Whilst fanfic/ AU ideas we can't properly speculate.
Chaos says that the Primarchs came from the warp and that they want them back. I'm not looking for answers just a discussion on what people think. I wonder if Angron would have turned without the butchers nails.
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SirWeeble wrote: imo: the heresy would have happened either way. Perhaps the emperor for-saw a betrayal manipulated by Chaos and was attempting to prevent his armies from coming into contact with them in the first place - waiting until his empire was secure before he dealt with the forces of chaos head-on.
I doubt that, it without doubt would have to have happened, well not at that same time at least. a chaos led civil war would probably happen regardless but not likely at the exact same time as the HH.
You brought up the idea of a Chaos god of balance.
It really isn't. Their plan of mind wipe/kill everyone has worked for 10k years and it's not like the Imperium has some great way of transferring knowledge between everyone.
pm713 wrote: You brought up the idea of a Chaos god of balance.
It really isn't. Their plan of mind wipe/kill everyone has worked for 10k years and it's not like the Imperium has some great way of transferring knowledge between everyone.
No I said other people believe him to be a god of balance:
" I don't think that the Emperor is working for chaos as he is thought of by many as being the chaos god of balance but still interesting to think." I think its daft to think of him as a Chaos god as the chaos gods cannot stay in the materium, they can't even actually enter it, only parts of them can.
pm713 wrote: You brought up the idea of a Chaos god of balance.
It really isn't. Their plan of mind wipe/kill everyone has worked for 10k years and it's not like the Imperium has some great way of transferring knowledge between everyone.
No I said other people believe him to be a god of balance:
" I don't think that the Emperor is working for chaos as he is thought of by many as being the chaos god of balance but still interesting to think." I think its daft to think of him as a Chaos god as the chaos gods cannot stay in the materium, they can't even actually enter it, only parts of them can.
Which is bringing it up.
That's basically what the Emperor does. A small part of his body is alive but most of his power/consciousness is in the Warp.
pm713 wrote: You brought up the idea of a Chaos god of balance.
It really isn't. Their plan of mind wipe/kill everyone has worked for 10k years and it's not like the Imperium has some great way of transferring knowledge between everyone.
No I said other people believe him to be a god of balance:
" I don't think that the Emperor is working for chaos as he is thought of by many as being the chaos god of balance but still interesting to think." I think its daft to think of him as a Chaos god as the chaos gods cannot stay in the materium, they can't even actually enter it, only parts of them can.
Which is bringing it up.
That's basically what the Emperor does. A small part of his body is alive but most of his power/consciousness is in the Warp.
My bad, I thought you were saying that I believed that he was the Chaos god of balance. Before his internment on the golden throne he wan't though, he walked about the Earth like everyone else. But I suppose like Slaanesh his internment could have been his apotheosis.
A lot of people already know about the existence of the chaos gods.
Every single commissar, every SOB, every inquisitor, all of the inquisitors' retinue, high ranking military officers (IG and navy), and even some of the nobility are privy to the secret of the existence and the nature of chaos. It is only the common Imperial citizen that DOESN'T know and for good reason. The golden throne seems awfully distant compared to the nature of chaos and a lot of people would probably convert to chaos out of sheer fear. Not only that, chaos seems much more REAL upon consideration then worshipping the emperor, as the chaos gods actually bestow boons/powers and can manifest avatars of their will (daemons),
w1zard wrote: A lot of people already know about the existence of the chaos gods.
Every single commissar, every SOB, every inquisitor, all of the inquisitors' retinue, high ranking military officers (IG and navy), and even some of the nobility are privy to the secret of the existence and the nature of chaos. It is only the common Imperial citizen that DOESN'T know and for good reason. The golden throne seems awfully distant compared to the nature of chaos and a lot of people would probably convert to chaos out of sheer fear. Not only that, chaos seems much more REAL upon consideration then worshipping the emperor, as the chaos gods actually bestow boons/powers and can manifest avatars of their will (daemons),
Yeah tonnes know, they have to but now that the average Terran knows, there is no possible way to keep it secret. Though at the time of the great crusade hardly anyone knew, not even most of the Primarchs knew in any great detail, plus at the time so many cultures and peoples where being introduced to the Imperium, it would have been so much easier for Chaos to turn the humans in these cultures as they were not yet indoctrinated with the Imperial Truth.
pm713 wrote: Why does the average Terran make a difference? They aren't important and they can vanish just as easily as anyone else who knows too much.
Because its the hub of the Imperium, every cargo ship that goes there to drop off resources that are gathered throughout the galaxy, people travel there for business, dealings with the church, they take pilgrimages there (though pilgrims normally will never return) but the point is, there is always talk, the Terrans will talk of the daemons and all the space faring visitors will return will all those stories of daemons and it will propagate throughout the Imperium. If a daemon incursion happened on earth just now to some tribe in Africa, it wouldn't make much of a difference, but if it happened in New York, it would make a massive difference.
I don’t see why they can’t keep it quiet on the nice side of the rift. Don’t underestimate the power of authoritarian regimes to quieten things down. Armageddon was a very important planet with lots of traffic and they kept a full scale planetary incursion quiet by killing everyone who was anywhere near it. If anything all the pilgrimages and comings and goings would make it I easier. A transient population is easier to disappear without questions.
Also the authoritarian nature of the state would mean people who have seen a glimpse of chaos would know to gak up about it. Just check the end of the shadows word novel.
Not knowing about chaos protects most people but psychic people will always be at risk, but one things is evident in all the fluff, knowing about chaos and it’s temptations and not giving in takes a very well special type of person. All the hang ups the primarichs had it might have been worse if they’d known about chaos openly.
This thread isn’t very specific. The title is asking about what if He kept his side of the bargain. A bargain of which we have no details what so ever and the first line of the first post is asking what we think would have happened if the Emperor has told everyone about Chaos. They are two distinct things.
Also just because there is a Warp rift across the galaxy doesn’t mean “loads” of people know about Chaos. It just means they know that the Warp has spilled through and that the Warp is what people travel in to get to far distant places.
pm713 wrote: Why does the average Terran make a difference? They aren't important and they can vanish just as easily as anyone else who knows too much.
Because its the hub of the Imperium, every cargo ship that goes there to drop off resources that are gathered throughout the galaxy, people travel there for business, dealings with the church, they take pilgrimages there (though pilgrims normally will never return) but the point is, there is always talk, the Terrans will talk of the daemons and all the space faring visitors will return will all those stories of daemons and it will propagate throughout the Imperium. If a daemon incursion happened on earth just now to some tribe in Africa, it wouldn't make much of a difference, but if it happened in New York, it would make a massive difference.
Lol. Every Forge World, Hive World and Agri World ships to a lot of other planets, lots of shrine worlds have pilgrims. People would always talk. They don't because anyone who saw too much gets turned to liquid. That applies to Terra as much as anywhere else. Terran citizens are as worthless as everyone else who isn't a high up.
What it's really like is a town in England sees Daemons and are liquidised vs a city in England having the same treatment, it's harder but it still happens.
Mellow wrote: This thread isn’t very specific. The title is asking about what if He kept his side of the bargain. A bargain of which we have no details what so ever and the first line of the first post is asking what we think would have happened if the Emperor has told everyone about Chaos. They are two distinct things.
Also just because there is a Warp rift across the galaxy doesn’t mean “loads” of people know about Chaos. It just means they know that the Warp has spilled through and that the Warp is what people travel in to get to far distant places.
Him keeping his bargain would be telling everyone of Chaos. We do know of the bargain, Ingathel the ascended spoke about it, The Emperor was given powers to create the Primarchs and in return he was supposed to show humanity the existence of chaos. Its in first heretic
"You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade.The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons. But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful. The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them. Xaphen gripped the handrail to keep from going to his knees." - whether you want to believe Chaos is another matter, but this thread is assuming this deal is a fact.
It has nothing to do with the warp rift it has everything to do with the Daemon invasion on Terra.
So you are assuming that He had no idea how to make the Primarchs before He went to the Chaos Gods and asked for the knowledge?
Regarding the Daemon invasion of Terra ... only a very small number of people even know about it’s possibility. No one else probably outside of the Throne room knows I would imagine.
Mellow wrote: So you are assuming that He had no idea how to make the Primarchs before He went to the Chaos Gods and asked for the knowledge?
He had the genetics but we know from multiple sources that the Primarchs are more than just flesh and blood. Their powers derive from the warp, even if most of them are not consciously psykers like Magnus. Sanguinius and Kurze are both precogs, Corax can turn invisible and Alpharius/Omegon seem to have strange split soul thing going on. All of these abiltiies are strongly implied to be more than just genetics. The Primarchs bodies are physical vessels for bottling warp juice.
Because they're the biggest threat to him and they're incredibly powerful? Chaos destroyed what was the strongest empire around and turned the survivors into refugees.
I don't see why anyone would ever summon demons for fun ever outside some dumb 40k comedy.
The invasion of terra bad warp beasties is no reason for everyone to know about chaos and imperial rules on it change. Just keep covering it up. The fact it’s on terra makes it easier to cover up not harder. It’s not 21st century with twitter and Facebook it’s the 41st meillenium witha Stalinist style government and weird psychic communication over the vast distance. Anyone getting off a freighter telling people he had heard about these weird creatures from the immaterium attacking the palace on holy terra ( and they only would’ve heard 2nd hand, mind wipe or death??) would just be picked up the imperial Stasi and disappeared. And anyone they knew.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: What do you think would have happened if the Emperor told mankind about the Chaos gods. The Imperium has no capability anymore in 40k to hide the existence of chaos since the daemon invasion on Terra, though we have yet to see if there are serious implications due to that. If the Emperor did that at the beginning would the Primarchs have still gone Chaos or would the Horus Heresy even have happened at all, or would it have been a slam dunk for Chaos. I think that Chaos foresaw that the Emperor would betray them, as it would have been so much easier for the Horus Heresy to happen if the Emperor kept it a secret, but what if he didn't. I don't think that the Emperor is working for chaos as he is thought of by many as being the chaos god of balance but still interesting to think. I don't want to debate on whether or not the Emperor actually made a deal with chaos though as there is another thread about that at the moment, but its a free country.
Well this is a mess to read.
Here are my answers to the many questions and statements you have asked:
Spoiler:
What do you think would have happened if the Emperor told mankind about the Chaos gods
Humanity would've necked themselves like the several other times it and already did.
The Imperium has no capability anymore in 40k to hide the existence of chaos since the daemon invasion on Terra, though we have yet to see if there are serious implications due to that.
The Imperium has the capacity to control the flow of information to the general population of Imperial Worlds. With Warp Dreams being the main form of system to system communication, news can and will be heavily sensored and regulated. Plus the Inquisiton will mind wipe, purge or do any number of things to stop the spread of Chaos in the Imperium.
If the Emperor did that at the beginning would the Primarchs have still gone Chaos or would the Horus Heresy even have happened at all, or would it have been a slam dunk for Chaos.
The Emperor chose to use the Primarchs to unite the lost human worlds then eliminate some of them at the end of the great crusade. The Heresy would've still happened, expect the Emperor would've been the one to initiate the civil war. Would it have been a Slam Dunk for Chaos if he told them? I don't believe so, but they had been stolen and scattered across the universe by the Dark Gods so we will never find out.
I think that Chaos foresaw that the Emperor would betray them, as it would have been so much easier for the Horus Heresy to happen if the Emperor kept it a secret, but what if he didn't.
The Emperor never betrayed Chaos... I don't know why you would think that. Like i said above, it still would've happened since Chaos already stepped in and stole the Primarchs.
I don't think that the Emperor is working for chaos as he is thought of by many as being the chaos god of balance but still interesting to think. I don't want to debate on whether or not the Emperor actually made a deal with chaos though as there is another thread about that at the moment, but its a free country.
The Emperor isn't a god, he's a manufactured warp entity with the collective knowledge of all those that died to create him. There is no evidence that the Emperor made any deal with Chaos.
in regards to everyone knowing about chaos, isn't it mentioned in the book about Khornes attack on the palace (watchers of the throne i think?) how everyone on Terra essentially now knows of the existence of chaos and daemons and that it was decided that there were too many people and too many important people to be able to mind wipe them all and so just essentially said F it people know now?
I don't have the book to hand a the moment and has been a while since i read it but that's essentially how I remember it going?
Maybe he did keep the deal.
Yes Mr Khorn. We do have some nutters that just like shedding blood.
Look at this beauty mr. Um miss? Slaanesh. Sexy,depraved human souls.
Hello Tzeentch. You want convoluted plots that dont go anywhere.
Have I got a deal for you. All this could be yours for the low low price 10K years worth of souls for some of that good warp stuff.
The stuff before you got your scratchers into it.
Mellow wrote: So you are assuming that He had no idea how to make the Primarchs before He went to the Chaos Gods and asked for the knowledge?
Regarding the Daemon invasion of Terra ... only a very small number of people even know about it’s possibility. No one else probably outside of the Throne room knows I would imagine.
Not true, so many people saw it that they realised they could no longer keep it a secret. Yeah the citizens didn't realise a massive daemon incursion.
Mellow wrote: So you are assuming that He had no idea how to make the Primarchs before He went to the Chaos Gods and asked for the knowledge?
Regarding the Daemon invasion of Terra ... only a very small number of people even know about it’s possibility. No one else probably outside of the Throne room knows I would imagine.
Not true, so many people saw it that they realised they could no longer keep it a secret.
Because every other invasion was only seen by a few people. Terra had like 15 people see, no keeping all them quiet.
Mellow wrote: So you are assuming that He had no idea how to make the Primarchs before He went to the Chaos Gods and asked for the knowledge?
Regarding the Daemon invasion of Terra ... only a very small number of people even know about it’s possibility. No one else probably outside of the Throne room knows I would imagine.
Not true, so many people saw it that they realised they could no longer keep it a secret.
Because every other invasion was only seen by a few people. Terra had like 15 people see, no keeping all them quiet.
It was on Terra, on Luna and in the Sol System. The skies on terra were on fire the arbites were over run and anarchy ensued by people in the hab towers, The Lions Gate invasion was massive, something like 8 bloodthirsters, I'm sure no one saw it.
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Bananarama wrote: in regards to everyone knowing about chaos, isn't it mentioned in the book about Khornes attack on the palace (watchers of the throne i think?) how everyone on Terra essentially now knows of the existence of chaos and daemons and that it was decided that there were too many people and too many important people to be able to mind wipe them all and so just essentially said F it people know now?
I don't have the book to hand a the moment and has been a while since i read it but that's essentially how I remember it going?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: What do you think would have happened if the Emperor told mankind about the Chaos gods. The Imperium has no capability anymore in 40k to hide the existence of chaos since the daemon invasion on Terra, though we have yet to see if there are serious implications due to that. If the Emperor did that at the beginning would the Primarchs have still gone Chaos or would the Horus Heresy even have happened at all, or would it have been a slam dunk for Chaos. I think that Chaos foresaw that the Emperor would betray them, as it would have been so much easier for the Horus Heresy to happen if the Emperor kept it a secret, but what if he didn't. I don't think that the Emperor is working for chaos as he is thought of by many as being the chaos god of balance but still interesting to think. I don't want to debate on whether or not the Emperor actually made a deal with chaos though as there is another thread about that at the moment, but its a free country.
Well this is a mess to read.
Here are my answers to the many questions and statements you have asked:
Spoiler:
What do you think would have happened if the Emperor told mankind about the Chaos gods
Humanity would've necked themselves like the several other times it and already did.
The Imperium has no capability anymore in 40k to hide the existence of chaos since the daemon invasion on Terra, though we have yet to see if there are serious implications due to that.
The Imperium has the capacity to control the flow of information to the general population of Imperial Worlds. With Warp Dreams being the main form of system to system communication, news can and will be heavily sensored and regulated. Plus the Inquisiton will mind wipe, purge or do any number of things to stop the spread of Chaos in the Imperium.
If the Emperor did that at the beginning would the Primarchs have still gone Chaos or would the Horus Heresy even have happened at all, or would it have been a slam dunk for Chaos.
The Emperor chose to use the Primarchs to unite the lost human worlds then eliminate some of them at the end of the great crusade. The Heresy would've still happened, expect the Emperor would've been the one to initiate the civil war. Would it have been a Slam Dunk for Chaos if he told them? I don't believe so, but they had been stolen and scattered across the universe by the Dark Gods so we will never find out.
I think that Chaos foresaw that the Emperor would betray them, as it would have been so much easier for the Horus Heresy to happen if the Emperor kept it a secret, but what if he didn't.
The Emperor never betrayed Chaos... I don't know why you would think that. Like i said above, it still would've happened since Chaos already stepped in and stole the Primarchs.
I don't think that the Emperor is working for chaos as he is thought of by many as being the chaos god of balance but still interesting to think. I don't want to debate on whether or not the Emperor actually made a deal with chaos though as there is another thread about that at the moment, but its a free country.
The Emperor isn't a god, he's a manufactured warp entity with the collective knowledge of all those that died to create him. There is no evidence that the Emperor made any deal with Chaos.
They don't have that ability anymore especially with the warp rift.
There are many instances where its said that the Emperor made a deal with chaos and he betrayed them. Where would I think that... really? First Heretic and Vengeful spirit, the whole novel vengeful spirit is about that lol
"He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god." - VS
"Lupercal walked in a circle, jabbing a fist into his palm with every sentence. ‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here in humble guise and found the gateway to
a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the mysteries of creation." - VS
"You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade. The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons. But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful. The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them. Xaphen gripped the handrail to keep from going to his knees." - first heretic
Sarcasm went overhead I see. Armageddon was invaded by a motherfething PRIMARCH and you they covered that up. Terra isn't special. You're just describing a demon invasion with more big demons than average.
pm713 wrote: Sarcasm went overhead I see. Armageddon was invaded by a motherfething PRIMARCH and you they covered that up. Terra isn't special. You're just describing a demon invasion with more big demons than average.
Actually you're right. looking over the book and found this quote:
"You will never hear an account of that battle, not as you will hear accounts of
his triumphant return to Terra, nor the great crusade that followed those days.
You will never hear how Roboute Guilliman fought the greater daemon atop the
ruins of the Lion’s Gate as the skies rained crimson tears around them. You will
never read of how the two of them duelled amid the screams and the rearing
flames, each testing the other to destruction, teetering on the edge of the
treacherous precipice while the hordes of damnation seethed below. You will
never hear how the monster nearly ripped him apart with a single lash of its
whip, or how his brow glowed with the light of the sun when he fought, or how
in the end he drove his sword into the daemon’s chest and clean out the other
side. You will never hear how he choked the life from that unnatural leviathan
with his great gauntlets, then cast its body down from the pyramid of debris to
break apart on the bloody dust below."
Earth127 wrote: They tried and failed. SW got in the way the first time.
Also whilst true knowledge of chaos is highly restricted, lesser knowledge comes far more frequently. It's no absolute one or zero people.
I wonder what would happen though if even the average Imperial knows. I mean the Emperor kept that knowledge for a reason, maybe the belief in the Emperor as a god might combat it a bit but we've all seen rouge cardinals and deacons etc.
End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.
End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.
Well you don't even read the book you're a debating, so no wonder a short paragraph is taxing for you. Look we had an argument in another thread, get over it.
"End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing." yeah the other people and I, told you everything you know about that.
End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.
Well you don't even read the book you're a debating, so no wonder a short paragraph is taxing for you. Look we had an argument in another thread, get over it.
"End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing." yeah the other people and I, told you everything you know about that.
Rude! Though we were debating what if the emperor upheld his side of the bargain? That’s the title. Not, the vengeful spirit, discuss. We went over it in the other thread and you provided no reliable sources for your “facts”. No one accepted your arguements but you carry on in other threads. It’s not personal mate. I’m just discussing 40k. We don’t “know”. And you are completely unaware of what I have and haven’t read. One thing is clear is that you are from an authority on 40k or 30k fluff.
End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.
Well you don't even read the book you're a debating, so no wonder a short paragraph is taxing for you. Look we had an argument in another thread, get over it.
"End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing." yeah the other people and I, told you everything you know about that.
Rude! Though we were debating what if the emperor upheld his side of the bargain? That’s the title. Not, the vengeful spirit, discuss. We went over it in the other thread and you provided no reliable sources for your “facts”. No one accepted your arguements but you carry on in other threads. It’s not personal mate. I’m just discussing 40k. We don’t “know”. And you are completely unaware of what I have and haven’t read. One thing is clear is that you are from an authority on 40k or 30k fluff.
I did actually provide proof, you and everyone didn't like that proof and said yeah but, you are ignoring the subtext and the interpretation, or Horus was biased even though the Emperors servant told the same story. Thing is everyone on that thread agreed that the Emperor went to the House of eyes they just disagree on what he did or got from there, no one knows what you were talking about, arguing that nothing in the book could be right because the writer called Horus a god after coming out of the House of eyes. Not reliable, they're straight from the novel you haven't read, so It would seem unreliable to you. I'm rude, no mate saying 'yay more quotes' is rude, go and tell a mod again and get my comments deleted. Everyone else on that thread at least could make a point other than just nonsensical gibberish. I don't know what books you've read I know for a fact that you haven't read vengeful spirit. You're the one carrying on on other threads saying 'yay more quotes'. <REMOVED> I'm not the one following you everywhere I go, desperately trying to prove me wrong on something, you are an irrelevance, other than being annoying more than anything.
1 I never even got to read what the mods removed. As I said on the thread. Certainly didn’t report you but would love to know what you said. PM me.
2. U didn’t provide proof you quoted literal text, as here and demonstrated no ability to see beyond that and into the subtext everyone’s could see. Everyone else was wrong and you were the only one who read the book right.
3. Ya more quotes may have been a bit rude but not as much as your constantly implying I’m stupid or illiterate. I apologies if may pointing that your reliance on quotes is getting tiresome. No offence meant.
4. I’m not stalking u, I’m commenting in the back ground of a game I love. A game, believe it or not I know very well and have done for 30years. I haven’t just read some HH books and taken them for “gospel” or “fact”, as you have. (Those are quotes by the way, from u, you actually stated that anything in a HH book was gospel and that they contained facts. A fictional book about a made up universe?). U have a posted a lot of threads in this section. I’m commenting on most of them.
5. Why the obsession with my butthole. U keep saying you have hurt it. I guarantee you that my bottom is fine and you have had zero impact on it.
6. U know nothing about me. What I’ve read, level of education, state of butthole. Nothing.
I’ve started breaking my posts to you down like this so you can understand them a bit better.
7. Kudos on standing corrected above. That quote actually clears an issue up.
Back on topic. Bargain or not chaos would’ve messed things up. It’s what they do. People knowing about chaos isn’t a defence against it. Most who know of it turn to it. Only the strongest can resist. Ie grey knights and inquisitors.
1 I never even got to read what the mods removed. As I said on the thread. Certainly didn’t report you but would love to know what you said. PM me.
2. U didn’t provide proof you quoted literal text, as here and demonstrated no ability to see beyond that and into the subtext everyone’s could see. Everyone else was wrong and you were the only one who read the book right.
3. Ya more quotes may have been a bit rude but not as much as your constantly implying I’m stupid or illiterate. I apologies if may pointing that your reliance on quotes is getting tiresome. No offence meant.
4. I’m not stalking u, I’m commenting in the back ground of a game I love. A game, believe it or not I know very well and have done for 30years. I haven’t just read some HH books and taken them for “gospel” or “fact”, as you have. (Those are quotes by the way, from u, you actually stated that anything in a HH book was gospel and that they contained facts. A fictional book about a made up universe?). U have a posted a lot of threads in this section. I’m commenting on most of them.
5. Why the obsession with my butthole. U keep saying you have hurt it. I guarantee you that my bottom is fine and you have had zero impact on it.
6. U know nothing about me. What I’ve read, level of education, state of butthole. Nothing.
I’ve started breaking my posts to you down like this so you can understand them a bit better.
7. Kudos on standing corrected above. That quote actually clears an issue up.
Back on topic. Bargain or not chaos would’ve messed things up. It’s what they do. People knowing about chaos isn’t a defence against it. Most who know of it turn to it. Only the strongest can resist. Ie grey knights and inquisitors.
No two people didn't read the book you were one of them. You made mistakes about the book that strongly suggests you never read it.
Yeah I quoted literal text and you and others used the subtext angle to try and prove it wrong. The Emperor did go to Molech and he did get powers there. Saying we don't know what he got up to, while talking to the Chaos Gods, isn't a good argument, they weren't playing jenga. Sureka knew what the Emperor got, but for some reason you find her testimony unreliable, for no reason whatsoever. She stayed on Molech since the dark age of technology to protect the gate, then risk her life against Horus, risked he family to protect the gate because she was lying about it.... Plus Horus become practically a god after coming out of the house of eyes, yeah the Emperor just went in to play jenga.
If a book says something explicitly happened then I tend to believe it did.
"U know nothing about me. What I’ve read, level of education, state of butthole. Nothing." I know your level of education is pretty low, it gets very frustrating arguing with you, you argue points that no one is making and points that have nothing to do with the argument, last time you did a point by point it was indecipherable.
"Kudos on standing corrected above. That quote actually clears an issue up" what quote exactly?
Bargain or not chaos would’ve messed things up. - probably would, saying they would is baseless. People not knowing about chaos is a defense against it, the question is to how much of a degree would chaos influence the Imperium if they all knew. Not only the strongest can resist chaos, anyone can, its just the Grey Knights have a far stronger resistance, as for Inquisitors, seeing the amount that have gone rogue I wouldn't say they were particularly resistant to chaos.
Nearly all the fluff I have read (and it’s quite a bit) shows people who have any dealings with chaos get tempted by its promise of power and turn. Psykers are monitored not just because they are a potential gateway for demons but also that they get too close to the warp and can turn very easily. The average down trodden human would turn quick as lightening. It’s not just a matter of right and wrong it’s a clawing temptation that lures you in.
Only the strongest willed can resist. Always has been. Hence sanctioned psykers, librarians being screened so tightly and thengrey knights been considered superior to marines in their ability to resist. They are not just a bit better. They are markedly better than a psycho indoctrinated super soldier. Let alone an average joe.
Andykp wrote: Nearly all the fluff I have read (and it’s quite a bit) shows people who have any dealings with chaos get tempted by its promise of power and turn. Psykers are monitored not just because they are a potential gateway for demons but also that they get too close to the warp and can turn very easily. The average down trodden human would turn quick as lightening. It’s not just a matter of right and wrong it’s a clawing temptation that lures you in.
Only the strongest willed can resist. Always has been. Hence sanctioned psykers, librarians being screened so tightly and thengrey knights been considered superior to marines in their ability to resist. They are not just a bit better. They are markedly better than a psycho indoctrinated super soldier. Let alone an average joe.
Yes but its dependant on the person. Some humans have the will to resist chaos because many have been tested and have refused them. "The average down trodden human would turn quick as lightening" also not true, there has been accounts of cults on Terra and not everyone within those areas that the cult operates turn. The Horus Heresy is another example where many normal humans resisted the Warmaster, even when their planets where taken over. Many humans even resisted in the Sons of Horus fleet and risked death for not going with the agenda. Space Marines are not that resistant compared to humans, half of all the legions Astartes turned to chaos in the HH and they were the first to turn, only 10 millennium of training and being taught about the plights of Chaos has made them so resistant. Without prior knowledge of Chaos the Astartes fell to it like domino's in HH, many didn't even need that much of a push. Grey knights, Sisters of Silence and the Custodes are the only Imperial forces that have any considerable resistance against chaos.
That’s my point. Marines fell and still do. If marines fall then ordinary humans have no chance. Being in the same area as a cult doesn’t mean you have come into contact or know about chaos. I have never heard that marines are taught about chaos as part of their training. I have always read that they are mind wiped or killed if the come into contact with chaos. Unless you are some high ranking one with a bit of sway. Telling all people about chaos, would only lead to more people turning. 100%.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading grey knights codex talk of mind wiping marines seems thin on the ground. Hope they haven’t changed it. Will keep looking but I always thought it was a bit much to wipe space marines so might be for the best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Found it. Nothing’s changed. Page 276 of the rule book. Only a select few know of demons and their threat. Either killed or mind wiped.
Andykp wrote: That’s my point. Marines fell and still do. If marines fall then ordinary humans have no chance. Being in the same area as a cult doesn’t mean you have come into contact or know about chaos. I have never heard that marines are taught about chaos as part of their training. I have always read that they are mind wiped or killed if the come into contact with chaos. Unless you are some high ranking one with a bit of sway. Telling all people about chaos, would only lead to more people turning. 100%.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading grey knights codex talk of mind wiping marines seems thin on the ground. Hope they haven’t changed it. Will keep looking but I always thought it was a bit much to wipe space marines so might be for the best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Found it. Nothing’s changed. Page 276 of the rule book. Only a select few know of demons and their threat. Either killed or mind wiped.
Saying ordinary humans have no chance just isn't true, depends on the person. Astartes may have a serious weakness for turning, they are obsessed with glory which is a very egotistic way of living, very easily enticed in my opinion, Astarted turning to chaos caused the whole HH. Only marines that come into contact with the Grey Knights are mind wiped. They know about chaos very well and they are taught about its dangers and taught to resist it.
Andykp wrote: End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.
Indeed. Both First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit give Chaos's side of the story but we all know perfectly well that Daemons are quite happy to lie and twist the truth if it serves their agenda.
There is also the matter of perspective. The Chaos Gods view all mortal souls as their rightful food/possession. Anything the Emperor does to undermine that would count as theft in their eyes.
I feel that Master of Mankind was a bit of a missed opportunity as it does not go nearly far enough to answer any of these questions, or even to give the Emperor's side of the story.
ADB said he purposely set out to avoid a book that was just a set of justifications and expositions from the Big E however I cannot help but feel he erred too far in the opposite direction. We understand the Chaos Gods and the fallen Primarchs much better than the Emperor and the Loyalists. MoM could have balanced that a bit. The Emperor may well be beyond human concepts of affection but at least if we understood his objectives a little more, it would help us to sympathise with him.
The entire HH series has painted the Emperor in a very poor light. It would be one thing to paint him as cold and remote but with a magnificent intellect unfortunately his handling of the Primarchs persistently makes him look like a giant jerk. Or they could paint him as caring yet flawed but they didn't do that either. Frankly I am surprised any of the Primarchs remained loyal given the way the Emperor has been written.
And that is a problem. He is meant to be humanity's protector and saviour. If you cannot sympathise with him, it robs the loyalist faction of any interest.
Andykp wrote: End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.
Indeed. Both First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit give Chaos's side of the story but we all know perfectly well that Daemons are quite happy to lie and twist the truth if it serves their agenda.
There is also the matter of perspective. The Chaos Gods view all mortal souls as their rightful food/possession. Anything the Emperor does to undermine that would count as theft in their eyes.
I feel that Master of Mankind was a bit of a missed opportunity as it does not go nearly far enough to answer any of these questions, or even to give the Emperor's side of the story.
ADB said he purposely set out to avoid a book that was just a set of justifications and expositions from the Big E however I cannot help but feel he erred too far in the opposite direction. We understand the Chaos Gods and the fallen Primarchs much better than the Emperor and the Loyalists. MoM could have balanced that a bit. The Emperor may well be beyond human concepts of affection but at least if we understood his objectives a little more, it would help us to sympathise with him.
The entire HH series has painted the Emperor in a very poor light. It would be one thing to paint him as cold and remote but with a magnificent intellect unfortunately his handling of the Primarchs persistently makes him look like a giant jerk. Or they could paint him as caring yet flawed but they didn't do that either. Frankly I am surprised any of the Primarchs remained loyal given the way the Emperor has been written.
And that is a problem. He is meant to be humanity's protector and saviour. If you cannot sympathise with him, it robs the loyalist faction of any interest.
They don't just give the Chaos side in vengeful spirit, they give the side of the perpetual Sureka who went with the Emperor to Molech during the dark age of technology, and was tasked with sealing the gate and was left behind on Molech to protect the gateway. Plus Horus' side knowledge of the Emperor going to Molech for powers was not daemon knowledge, he went into a cave on Molech and destroyed the Emperors psychic defendor in order to regain the memories that the Emperor erased the second time the Emperor was on Molech. Horus knew about the Emperors deal before the Red Angel told him more about it.
I agree with you Karhedron except I prefer the not knowing for sure. It keeps the mystery going. That’s the danger of any of HH books. They could answer too many questions.
Dev, where are you getting it from that marines are trained in the knowledge of chaos, it’s new to me and couldn’t find it in any of the books i looked in tonight? Genuine question, i know how they change things.
As I said page 276 of the basic rule book, in the appendix states what I always believed was how it was done. Although I never like the idea of mind wiping or killing marines off just in case. Never made sense to me.
It of course depends on the individual as to how well they could resist chaos, but given that in the real world most people can’t resist an advert or a free doughnut, I think most people wouldn’t fair well against the temptations of the chaos gods.
Pic added to show paragraph in rule book. Know how you like a quote! (Kidding, playing nice now).
Andykp wrote: I agree with you Karhedron except I prefer the not knowing for sure. It keeps the mystery going. That’s the danger of any of HH books. They could answer too many questions.
Dev, where are you getting it from that marines are trained in the knowledge of chaos, it’s new to me and couldn’t find it in any of the books i looked in tonight? Genuine question, i know how they change things.
As I said page 276 of the basic rule book, in the appendix states what I always believed was how it was done. Although I never like the idea of mind wiping or killing marines off just in case. Never made sense to me.
It of course depends on the individual as to how well they could resist chaos, but given that in the real world most people can’t resist an advert or a free doughnut, I think most people wouldn’t fair well against the temptations of the chaos gods.
Pic added to show paragraph in rule book. Know how you like a quote! (Kidding, playing nice now).
Well the space wolves first test, the test of Morakai's gate is a test to resist Chaos for instance.
No Astartes are only ever mind wiped when they come into contact with the Grey Knights, they have always known about daemons. Only Humans, Imperial Guard etc are ever mind-wiped for knowing of daemons.
Have to disagree on the humans bit. Guard etc are killed. Always have been and according to the quote above still are. Only high value people are mind wiped. Like marines.
In 1st edition fluff everyone one was killed which didn’t make sense. So now it’s got a bit more men in Black. I don’t know about that space wolf test you mentioned so will look into it. My understanding of normal marine indoctrination was just the standard be loyal to the emperor, do as your told and don’t ask question stuff. Mad be a psycho killer prepared to die at any moment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course if marines or guard are on their own and meet demons, who’s to know? But if it’s found out and you didn’t say, it’s burning at the stake time.
Andykp wrote: Have to disagree on the humans bit. Guard etc are killed. Always have been and according to the quote above still are. Only high value people are mind wiped. Like marines.
In 1st edition fluff everyone one was killed which didn’t make sense. So now it’s got a bit more men in Black. I don’t know about that space wolf test you mentioned so will look into it. My understanding of normal marine indoctrination was just the standard be loyal to the emperor, do as your told and don’t ask question stuff. Mad be a psycho killer prepared to die at any moment.
Yeah they are killed. Most 1st edition fluff is irrelevant now, though.
I gave the first edition as an example of it changing, and for the better in this case. The gate of morakai is from space wolf, the novel yes? If that’s the one you mean I dint think it shows the aspirants what chaos is. It tempts them but I don’t think they come out of their trance aware of the chaos gods and demons. I could be wrong, space wolves are rum uns.
Andykp wrote: I gave the first edition as an example of it changing, and for the better in this case. The gate of morakai is from space wolf, the novel yes? If that’s the one you mean I dint think it shows the aspirants what chaos is. It tempts them but I don’t think they come out of their trance aware of the chaos gods and demons. I could be wrong, space wolves are rum uns.
Can't remember if they didn't remember it, but they also go through memory implantation that tells them everything they need to know about Chaos and the Imperium, which is important for the Space Wolves as they come from a savage primordial cultures. Also I think teaching Marines of chaos is a logical thing to do, just like teaching them of xenos, 'know thy enemy' sort of thing.
Keep in mind there are differant levels of knowledge of something, some safer then others obviously,
I imagine it's a bit like marines proably know that there are fell forces in the warp, marine chapters masters and other VIPs know who they are etc, grey knights and high level inqusitors know all that and also know on paper how one would summon a deamon.
Knowing that this stuff exists is possiably problematic but it's a lot less dangerous then "to summon a blood thrister you do XYZ" but the latter might be important for a Inqusitor or Grey Knight to know if battling a chaos cult so they can reckongize whats happening.
BrianDavion wrote: Keep in mind there are differant levels of knowledge of something, some safer then others obviously,
I imagine it's a bit like marines proably know that there are fell forces in the warp, marine chapters masters and other VIPs know who they are etc, grey knights and high level inqusitors know all that and also know on paper how one would summon a deamon.
Knowing that this stuff exists is possiably problematic but it's a lot less dangerous then "to summon a blood thrister you do XYZ" but the latter might be important for a Inqusitor or Grey Knight to know if battling a chaos cult so they can reckongize whats happening.
Doubt any one knows as much as the inquisition or the high lords of terra though.
Even Astartes are mind wiped when they find out about the existence of the Grey Knights. Therefore I find it very difficult to believe that Astartes (I.e. people of significant value) wouldn’t be just mind wiped if they found out about Chaos.
I believe only chapter masters are permitted to know about the Grey Knights and if you’re allowed to know about the “cure” then it would be acceptable to know their were “Warp Xeno’s that can tempt you”
I have never heard that marines being told about the existence of chaos. Brian is right. U could know that in the warp there are beasties to fight. But know nothing of their nature or the gods. It out right says in the fluff in the current rule book that they don’t know. Only high lords and a handful of other important types know.
I dint think even cultists know the true nature of chaos. Most probably don’t really understand what they are doing. Chaos is after all the master manipulator. I like to think the rogue inquisitors are the ones who have seen the power of chaos and some believe it can be used to help man kind (fools).
I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.
Mellow wrote: Even Astartes are mind wiped when they find out about the existence of the Grey Knights. Therefore I find it very difficult to believe that Astartes (I.e. people of significant value) wouldn’t be just mind wiped if they found out about Chaos.
I believe only chapter masters are permitted to know about the Grey Knights and if you’re allowed to know about the “cure” then it would be acceptable to know their were “Warp Xeno’s that can tempt you”
I've never heard anything about Astartes being mind wiped over Chaos and it seems fairly silly considering how much you'd have to do it.
Mellow wrote: Even Astartes are mind wiped when they find out about the existence of the Grey Knights. Therefore I find it very difficult to believe that Astartes (I.e. people of significant value) wouldn’t be just mind wiped if they found out about Chaos.
I believe only chapter masters are permitted to know about the Grey Knights and if you’re allowed to know about the “cure” then it would be acceptable to know their were “Warp Xeno’s that can tempt you”
I've never heard anything about Astartes being mind wiped over Chaos and it seems fairly silly considering how much you'd have to do it.
Yup they are only ever mind wiped when it comes to the grey knights.
Mellow wrote: Even Astartes are mind wiped when they find out about the existence of the Grey Knights. Therefore I find it very difficult to believe that Astartes (I.e. people of significant value) wouldn’t be just mind wiped if they found out about Chaos.
I believe only chapter masters are permitted to know about the Grey Knights and if you’re allowed to know about the “cure” then it would be acceptable to know their were “Warp Xeno’s that can tempt you”
I've never heard anything about Astartes being mind wiped over Chaos and it seems fairly silly considering how much you'd have to do it.
That I have definitely heard. The thing is I could send them against traitors and heretics and they needn’t know they are chaos aligned. They could just traitors or separatists. Soon as demons start popping up you are in trouble. It’s only us in game terms know that a traitor guard army is chaos and not just some geouo that doesn’t want to be part of the imperium anymore.
Look at Badab. They were separatists to the ones fighting them and some of the ones on the rebels side.
Knowing 'the warp is a thing' is fine.
Referring to daemons in a theological abstract, fine - they're namechecked in the Fede Imperialis (pretty much the Ecclesiarchy analogue to the Lord's Prayer)
Fighting Traitors who claim to worship chaos, Fine-ish (they're traitor mutant loonies, who cares what they believe)
Encountering psychic manifestations and horror-esque non-specific daemonic stuff.....not really fine-ish, but the line between lesser daemons, psykers, and stuff like mandrakes or necron wraiths from the point of view of an ill-informed observer is pretty minor.
More major daemonic incursions - depends who's judging the case, what exactly you saw and who you are. Yes, Terra experienced a massive daemonic incursion, but let's be fair, anyone other than Custodes, Null-Maidens and Grey Knights who actually "saw" a phalanx of greater daemons of khorne in all their bloodstained glory is probably dribbling, pants-on-head insane, and you're doing them a favour by executing them.
Being aware that the Chaos Gods exist and the Grey Knights exist.....yeah. That's "we casually erase your family" territory.
Mellow wrote: I don’t believe they would send grey knights to deal with separatists or plain traitors. That’s what the Minotaurs are for.
Yeah only if there is a possible daemon incursion do they deal with separatists or cultists etc. Though I would think that they can be called in for their experience if the situation is dire enough.
Mellow wrote: I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.
even among a space marine chapter there is differing levels of knwoeldge, A CHAPTER MASTER, would ABSOLUTELY know Deamons are a thing and "if you ever need to deal with them, these are the guys to call" Brother Bob of the 6th tactical Squad in 5th company? No need for him to know that.
Mellow wrote: I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.
even among a space marine chapter there is differing levels of knwoeldge, A CHAPTER MASTER, would ABSOLUTELY know Deamons are a thing and "if you ever need to deal with them, these are the guys to call" Brother Bob of the 6th tactical Squad in 5th company? No need for him to know that.
Not all chapter masters, it took a war for Grimnar to be able to know about the Grey Knights. They were only aloud to know because of the stalemate at the end of the war.
Mellow wrote: I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.
even among a space marine chapter there is differing levels of knwoeldge, A CHAPTER MASTER, would ABSOLUTELY know Deamons are a thing and "if you ever need to deal with them, these are the guys to call" Brother Bob of the 6th tactical Squad in 5th company? No need for him to know that.
Not all chapter masters, it took a war for Grimnar to be able to know about the Grey Knights. They were only aloud to know because of the stalemate at the end of the war.
No. The Knights were summoned by Grimnar. The rest of the Wolves were told as part of the deal they made at the end of the Months of Shame.
Mellow wrote: I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.
even among a space marine chapter there is differing levels of knwoeldge, A CHAPTER MASTER, would ABSOLUTELY know Deamons are a thing and "if you ever need to deal with them, these are the guys to call" Brother Bob of the 6th tactical Squad in 5th company? No need for him to know that.
Not all chapter masters, it took a war for Grimnar to be able to know about the Grey Knights. They were only aloud to know because of the stalemate at the end of the war.
No. The Knights were summoned by Grimnar. The rest of the Wolves were told as part of the deal they made at the end of the Months of Shame.
So we have chapter master, high lords, inquisitors that need to and senior priest types that know about chaos proper. Marines and some guard maybe fought them but don’t really know what it was about. Average human it would just be folk lore like a yeti or ghost stories. Sounds good to me.
the exact details as to who knows what it seems vary from novel to novel, but the summery there seems about right. essentially you know as much about chaos as you need to know.
Andykp wrote: So we have chapter master, high lords, inquisitors that need to and senior priest types that know about chaos proper. Marines and some guard maybe fought them but don’t really know what it was about. Average human it would just be folk lore like a yeti or ghost stories. Sounds good to me.
There is also the rule breakers, who learn what they shouldn't like in The Emperors Legion novel.
So basically as per the thread title... although He could have told Humanity about the primordial truth but it would have been really really bad because unlike Him (who clearly has some kind of special resistance to Chaos) the vast majority of humanity would have been swallowed up, twisted, enslaved and sacrificed by the Gods which basically would have gone against His plans for humanities dominance.
Continued survival... yes of a kind
Dominance ... not really no
Andykp wrote: So we have chapter master, high lords, inquisitors that need to and senior priest types that know about chaos proper. Marines and some guard maybe fought them but don’t really know what it was about. Average human it would just be folk lore like a yeti or ghost stories. Sounds good to me.
There is also the rule breakers, who learn what they shouldn't like in The Emperors Legion novel.
There’s always peop,e who shouldn’t know who end up finding out. And it doesn’t normally go well.
Mellow wrote: So basically as per the thread title... although He could have told Humanity about the primordial truth but it would have been really really bad because unlike Him (who clearly has some kind of special resistance to Chaos) the vast majority of humanity would have been swallowed up, twisted, enslaved and sacrificed by the Gods which basically would have gone against His plans for humanities dominance.
Continued survival... yes of a kind
Dominance ... not really no
I doubt it would have to end badly, especially with the Emperor making some sort of plan, Space Marines know and they fall to chaos pretty easily, even now many turn traitor.
pm713 wrote: That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.
Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.
According to the Ciaphas Cain novels, ALL commissars are taught about the true nature of chaos and what it can do during training. This includes the names of the dark gods themselves and their portfolios. For his part, Cain needed inquisitorial approval in order to brief a room full of guard officers about these things when there was going to be a possible daemonworld level chaos incursion on Adumbria.
The Guard officers in question included a Lord General, and were not mindwiped or killed afterwards. A bog standard Tallarn footsoldier got to see Cain converse and fight a greater daemon of Slaanesh, and was not killed by the Inquisition afterwards, because it was stated in the notes afterwards he went back home to Tallarn and founded the cult of Cain.
granted the Cain novels tend to be much lighter in feel then your average 40k.
Still the Comissarite knowing what Chaos is is almost essential, these guys need to at the very LEAST reckongize Chaos as they're the fiorst line of defence against guard regiments being subverted by chaos.
Mellow wrote: So basically as per the thread title... although He could have told Humanity about the primordial truth but it would have been really really bad because unlike Him (who clearly has some kind of special resistance to Chaos) the vast majority of humanity would have been swallowed up, twisted, enslaved and sacrificed by the Gods which basically would have gone against His plans for humanities dominance.
Continued survival... yes of a kind
Dominance ... not really no
I doubt it would have to end badly, especially with the Emperor making some sort of plan, Space Marines know and they fall to chaos pretty easily, even now many turn traitor.
Does the fact that marines know and fall easily not suggest that normal people would fall even easier if they knew. Therefore it’s better they don’t. Marines are supposed to be spiritually stronger than most?
pm713 wrote: That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.
Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.
According to the Ciaphas Cain novels, ALL commissars are taught about the true nature of chaos and what it can do during training. This includes the names of the dark gods themselves and their portfolios. For his part, Cain needed inquisitorial approval in order to brief a room full of guard officers about these things when there was going to be a possible daemonworld level chaos incursion on Adumbria.
The Guard officers in question included a Lord General, and were not mindwiped or killed afterwards. A bog standard Tallarn footsoldier got to see Cain converse and fight a greater daemon of Slaanesh, and was not killed by the Inquisition afterwards, because it was stated in the notes afterwards he went back home to Tallarn and founded the cult of Cain.
This is the problem with this bit of fluff. It means beloved characters get killed off and things. The guardsmen who have just won us that game against demons are all going to be executed now, makes it a bit pointless. In the shadow sword book the crew off the commissar and say nothing about it to anyone so they don’t get killed. I think this must happen a lot.
Demons attack. Guard fight them off. Officers tell them they were weird xenois and don’t worry about the nightmares.
pm713 wrote: That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.
Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.
According to the Ciaphas Cain novels, ALL commissars are taught about the true nature of chaos and what it can do during training. This includes the names of the dark gods themselves and their portfolios. For his part, Cain needed inquisitorial approval in order to brief a room full of guard officers about these things when there was going to be a possible daemonworld level chaos incursion on Adumbria.
The Guard officers in question included a Lord General, and were not mindwiped or killed afterwards. A bog standard Tallarn footsoldier got to see Cain converse and fight a greater daemon of Slaanesh, and was not killed by the Inquisition afterwards, because it was stated in the notes afterwards he went back home to Tallarn and founded the cult of Cain.
Yeah that seems logical, they have to be aware of daemons to be able to hold the line, otherwise they'd be like 'feth this, daemons... I'm out'
Mellow wrote: So basically as per the thread title... although He could have told Humanity about the primordial truth but it would have been really really bad because unlike Him (who clearly has some kind of special resistance to Chaos) the vast majority of humanity would have been swallowed up, twisted, enslaved and sacrificed by the Gods which basically would have gone against His plans for humanities dominance.
Continued survival... yes of a kind
Dominance ... not really no
I doubt it would have to end badly, especially with the Emperor making some sort of plan, Space Marines know and they fall to chaos pretty easily, even now many turn traitor.
Does the fact that marines know and fall easily not suggest that normal people would fall even easier if they knew. Therefore it’s better they don’t. Marines are supposed to be spiritually stronger than most?
pm713 wrote: That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.
Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.
According to the Ciaphas Cain novels, ALL commissars are taught about the true nature of chaos and what it can do during training. This includes the names of the dark gods themselves and their portfolios. For his part, Cain needed inquisitorial approval in order to brief a room full of guard officers about these things when there was going to be a possible daemonworld level chaos incursion on Adumbria.
The Guard officers in question included a Lord General, and were not mindwiped or killed afterwards. A bog standard Tallarn footsoldier got to see Cain converse and fight a greater daemon of Slaanesh, and was not killed by the Inquisition afterwards, because it was stated in the notes afterwards he went back home to Tallarn and founded the cult of Cain.
This is the problem with this bit of fluff. It means beloved characters get killed off and things. The guardsmen who have just won us that game against demons are all going to be executed now, makes it a bit pointless. In the shadow sword book the crew off the commissar and say nothing about it to anyone so they don’t get killed. I think this must happen a lot.
Demons attack. Guard fight them off. Officers tell them they were weird xenois and don’t worry about the nightmares.
Most humans fall easily, but I wouldn't be too sure in thinking Astartes have any better resistance. All it really took for most Astartes in HH was the notion that they would end up being statesmen ir go the way of the thunderwarriors. I mean half of all astartes (not exactly half) turned pretty damn easily. They may have some fundamental flaw that makes it easier to turn them.
30k Astartes were just people but bigger. Post heresy they got all the indoctrination that makes them much more resistant to Chaos if somewhat insane.
The reason they turned in 30k is that they followed their leaders. Like good soldiers they stuck with their commanders, the problem was that the Emperor is so terrible at dealing with people half his children liked Horus more because he was a decent person to them.
pm713 wrote: 30k Astartes were just people but bigger. Post heresy they got all the indoctrination that makes them much more resistant to Chaos if somewhat insane.
The reason they turned in 30k is that they followed their leaders. Like good soldiers they stuck with their commanders, the problem was that the Emperor is so terrible at dealing with people half his children liked Horus more because he was a decent person to them.
Most went without resistance though, even when gak got weird. Not all of them turned because their leaders did. Lucius for instance, he turned before even knowing he did lol, where as Karn and Argel Tal resisted quite heavily. Erebus had to kill Argel to ensure Kharn became the chosen.
pm713 wrote: 30k Astartes were just people but bigger. Post heresy they got all the indoctrination that makes them much more resistant to Chaos if somewhat insane.
The reason they turned in 30k is that they followed their leaders. Like good soldiers they stuck with their commanders, the problem was that the Emperor is so terrible at dealing with people half his children liked Horus more because he was a decent person to them.
Most went without resistance though, even when gak got weird. Not all of them turned because their leaders did. Lucius for instance, he turned before even knowing he did lol, where as Karn and Argel Tal resisted quite heavily. Erebus had to kill Argel to ensure Kharn became the chosen.
Why wouldn't they? They can side with their trusted and loved Primarch or some distant evil tyrant who'll kill them without a care. I know who I'd pick.
pm713 wrote: 30k Astartes were just people but bigger. Post heresy they got all the indoctrination that makes them much more resistant to Chaos if somewhat insane.
The reason they turned in 30k is that they followed their leaders. Like good soldiers they stuck with their commanders, the problem was that the Emperor is so terrible at dealing with people half his children liked Horus more because he was a decent person to them.
Most went without resistance though, even when gak got weird. Not all of them turned because their leaders did. Lucius for instance, he turned before even knowing he did lol, where as Karn and Argel Tal resisted quite heavily. Erebus had to kill Argel to ensure Kharn became the chosen.
Why wouldn't they? They can side with their trusted and loved Primarch or some distant evil tyrant who'll kill them without a care. I know who I'd pick.
Not saying they shouldn't, just saying it was more complex than 'my Primarch is going, so I am.'
Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.
Backspacehacker wrote: Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.
It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.
Backspacehacker wrote: Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.
It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.
If he told everyone about chaos? Probably would only slow down what he has already done since more people would want to try and use the warp for their own gain or for the gain of humanity. Same thing with the primarchs, some of them would want to use the warp and understand it.
Backspacehacker wrote: Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.
It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.
If he told everyone about chaos? Probably would only slow down what he has already done since more people would want to try and use the warp for their own gain or for the gain of humanity. Same thing with the primarchs, some of them would want to use the warp and understand it.
What I wondered is if the Emperor could create some kind of indoctrination and training against Chaos, kind of like with the Astartes, obviously it wouldn't be that effective as it is with Astartes, but I just wonder what it would have been like.
Backspacehacker wrote: Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.
It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.
If he told everyone about chaos? Probably would only slow down what he has already done since more people would want to try and use the warp for their own gain or for the gain of humanity. Same thing with the primarchs, some of them would want to use the warp and understand it.
What I wondered is if the Emperor could create some kind of indoctrination and training against Chaos, kind of like with the Astartes, obviously it wouldn't be that effective as it is with Astartes, but I just wonder what it would have been like.
Probably not, its easier to to kill them off. Remember psykers are super rare, about 1 in a million will be born and a single one can doom an entire planet.
Backspacehacker wrote: Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.
It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.
If he told everyone about chaos? Probably would only slow down what he has already done since more people would want to try and use the warp for their own gain or for the gain of humanity. Same thing with the primarchs, some of them would want to use the warp and understand it.
What I wondered is if the Emperor could create some kind of indoctrination and training against Chaos, kind of like with the Astartes, obviously it wouldn't be that effective as it is with Astartes, but I just wonder what it would have been like.
Probably not, its easier to to kill them off. Remember psykers are super rare, about 1 in a million will be born and a single one can doom an entire planet.
Killing them off like they do now is a terrible cost the Imperium has to make, they get rid of whole planets, think of the resources and the work force they wipe out in one swing, especially now with the great rift, also it was never the Emperors decision to just wipe them out, the Inquisition and High Lords do that without knowing whether they can handle a population that knows about daemons, their attitude is basically just get rid of what we don't understand, also heavily influenced by religion 'the unclean' etc. I don't know why you bring up psykers.
To the imperium the cost is totally worth it. I imagine that this policy was born out of experience. Warp incursion, army deal with it, then later....bigger worse warp incursion. I think the problem is, knowing of chaos allows chaos to start manipulating and tempting u. Most could only resist so long. Especially as most imperial citizens lives aren’t great. Eventually they would turn. And also the cost of an indoctrination process like you suggest isn’t low. A billion worlds???
Let’s assume that the emperor did trick chaos, and he did say he’d tell everyone about chaos. We could assume the emperor understood the nature of chaos a bit, hence his alleged betrayal.
He would therefore have a very strong suspicion that what chaos wanted wouldn’t be good for the dream of humanity he had. And we can too then.
So we can also assume that if he had done what chaos had wanted it would have been bad for humanity and good for chaos. Probably very very bad. Like living in the eye of terror bad.
Andykp wrote: To the imperium the cost is totally worth it. I imagine that this policy was born out of experience. Warp incursion, army deal with it, then later....bigger worse warp incursion. I think the problem is, knowing of chaos allows chaos to start manipulating and tempting u. Most could only resist so long. Especially as most imperial citizens lives aren’t great. Eventually they would turn. And also the cost of an indoctrination process like you suggest isn’t low. A billion worlds???
Let’s assume that the emperor did trick chaos, and he did say he’d tell everyone about chaos. We could assume the emperor understood the nature of chaos a bit, hence his alleged betrayal.
He would therefore have a very strong suspicion that what chaos wanted wouldn’t be good for the dream of humanity he had. And we can too then.
So we can also assume that if he had done what chaos had wanted it would have been bad for humanity and good for chaos. Probably very very bad. Like living in the eye of terror bad.
You don't know if it's worth it, because they've never done otherwise. They assume its worth it. The Astartes know about Chaos and their training etc. makes them less susceptible to turning traitor than the HH. My question is 'could he have done it another way.' Could he have been wrong. I mean a hell of a lot of people know about chaos, they still work fine within the Imperium with this knowledge, yes there are traitors but they are the minority otherwise the Imperium could function if everyone that knew about chaos turned. Obviously its nowhere near the same as average joes knowing but, could the Emperor implemented some way for them to know. As with the great rift, I don't see them keeping it a secret, especially with all the areas cut off from the rest of the Imperium.
He could have very easily done things differently in a lot of ways. Some of those ways would probably have been much better. He was wrong about a fair few things and he wouldn't be the first to be wrong about Chaos.
pm713 wrote: He could have very easily done things differently in a lot of ways. Some of those ways would probably have been much better. He was wrong about a fair few things and he wouldn't be the first to be wrong about Chaos.
True. Mornarchia for instance was a cluster feth. I always wondered though did the Emperor use Lorgars religious views as a reason to destroy Mornarchia because he realised how much taint existed within the city.
No it’s clear He is a simple being that punished Lorgar because he spent too long building shrines to the Emperor rather than just conquering worlds and moving on.
Mellow wrote: No it’s clear He is a simple being that punished Lorgar because he spent too long building shrines to the Emperor rather than just conquering worlds and moving on.
"Simple being" lol, are you maybe just upset that your Primarch got his feelings hurt. In all seriousness if the Emperor is simple I don't know who isn't.
I suspect the emperor wished to Galvanize Lorgar to move faster. it might have even worked had Kor Phaneon and Erebus not been there to pour poison in his ears
Mellow wrote: I’m not touchy. Coming from you and the way you have responded to others on this forum that comment is quite rich.
I don't mean touchy against me, I mean touchy against the Emperor? I think he gets a bit of a raw deal from the fans. Everyone is blaming him, 'look how he treated x) but if it were not for the Primarchs petty failings, the Imperium would be in amazing shape, with the webway and everything People think the Emperor is some infallible and that he should have seen all this coming, he admitted himself that he couldn't.
“I know some people think me omnipotent. But there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing” “You can't be both at the same time”
Really? The man actively turned his sons away from him, butchered people loyal to him and decided mass genocide was a good thing all for a plan that was altogether terrible. He sucks plain and simple.
pm713 wrote: Really? The man actively turned his sons away from him, butchered people loyal to him and decided mass genocide was a good thing all for a plan that was altogether terrible. He sucks plain and simple.
And where would humanity be without him. They'd have died fighting each other as the techno barbarians on a resource-less world. He extended the life span of the human race 10,000 years. He had no idea that Chaos would turn his sons, you are only thinking he is terrible because you have the luxury of hindsight. Take Horus, he never thought he could fall so far as to not being able to be brought back.
pm713 wrote: Really? The man actively turned his sons away from him, butchered people loyal to him and decided mass genocide was a good thing all for a plan that was altogether terrible. He sucks plain and simple.
And where would humanity be without him. They'd have died fighting each other like the techno barbarians. He had no idea that Chaos would turn his sons, you are only thinking he is terrible because you have the luxury of hindsight.
He didn't need Chaos to lose his sons. He made one of them vanish so all his family were murdered, he told one to abandon his quest for knowledge to better humanity while doing it himself just because and planned to turn him into a glorified battery, he publicly humiliated one while destroying what was quite possibly the best thing he'd done in life so far, he made one wander into toxic smoke just to take away the victory he worked for for years rather than help him, he shoved one to the sidelines giving him no recognition while his legion suffered siege after siege but glory went to all the others, he had two sons and their legions exterminated and their legions wiped from history, he made one of his sons gene seed so that his legionaries could turn into monsters and another so that the legionaries would go insane.
Almost half the Primarchs had something bad happen to him and the rest had little reason to follow the Emperor who would kill them all off without a thought. Why? For his plan. A terrible plan to move into the Webway which would just cause an incredibly brutal war against a superior foe. The Imperium would lose the numbers advantage but have to fight to take over a labyrinth that actively tried to block them in, with nothing better than scout TItans against an enemy that can bring starships to bear against them with better soldiers, better psychic powers and if a single Eldar went radical they could easily destroy the whole Webway with D weaponry.
All the cruelty, mistreatment, war and genocide to enact an incredibly risky plan with no guarantee of payoff where the people doing the fighting would just be shoved to the side afterwards at best.
Without the Emperor humanity would be better off. Some would be on worlds like Terra yes, but some like the Interex, Diasporex and Heliosans were pretty happy. Then there were middle ground civilisations like the Olamic Quietude. Where is humanity without the Emperor? Pretty okay. They're all over, many are happy and able to live in peace and there's no genocidal jackass feeding off their life force ruling them. The Emperor just brings humanity closer to extinction not the extension bs.
pm713 wrote: Really? The man actively turned his sons away from him, butchered people loyal to him and decided mass genocide was a good thing all for a plan that was altogether terrible. He sucks plain and simple.
And where would humanity be without him. They'd have died fighting each other like the techno barbarians. He had no idea that Chaos would turn his sons, you are only thinking he is terrible because you have the luxury of hindsight.
He didn't need Chaos to lose his sons. He made one of them vanish so all his family were murdered, he told one to abandon his quest for knowledge to better humanity while doing it himself just because and planned to turn him into a glorified battery, he publicly humiliated one while destroying what was quite possibly the best thing he'd done in life so far, he made one wander into toxic smoke just to take away the victory he worked for for years rather than help him, he shoved one to the sidelines giving him no recognition while his legion suffered siege after siege but glory went to all the others, he had two sons and their legions exterminated and their legions wiped from history, he made one of his sons gene seed so that his legionaries could turn into monsters and another so that the legionaries would go insane.
Almost half the Primarchs had something bad happen to him and the rest had little reason to follow the Emperor who would kill them all off without a thought. Why? For his plan. A terrible plan to move into the Webway which would just cause an incredibly brutal war against a superior foe. The Imperium would lose the numbers advantage but have to fight to take over a labyrinth that actively tried to block them in, with nothing better than scout TItans against an enemy that can bring starships to bear against them with better soldiers, better psychic powers and if a single Eldar went radical they could easily destroy the whole Webway with D weaponry.
All the cruelty, mistreatment, war and genocide to enact an incredibly risky plan with no guarantee of payoff where the people doing the fighting would just be shoved to the side afterwards at best.
Without the Emperor humanity would be better off. Some would be on worlds like Terra yes, but some like the Interex, Diasporex and Heliosans were pretty happy. Then there were middle ground civilisations like the Olamic Quietude. Where is humanity without the Emperor? Pretty okay. They're all over, many are happy and able to live in peace and there's no genocidal jackass feeding off their life force ruling them. The Emperor just brings humanity closer to extinction not the extension bs.
Again all of this is with the luxury of hindsight, he didn't know they'd be corrupted by chaos, so it wouldn't matter the way he treated them, it only matters to you because you know that they were going to end up being corrupted. He also did those things for a reason, just because they ended up coming round to bite him in the arse doesn't mean he had to have foreseen it, as he didn't. They were weapons and he treated them as such, the Primarchs are far higher beings that humans, to me they are just boo hooing, its them who failed because their ego's were so fragile, that they could take a moment of humility or follow an order.
pm713 wrote: Really? The man actively turned his sons away from him, butchered people loyal to him and decided mass genocide was a good thing all for a plan that was altogether terrible. He sucks plain and simple.
And where would humanity be without him. They'd have died fighting each other like the techno barbarians. He had no idea that Chaos would turn his sons, you are only thinking he is terrible because you have the luxury of hindsight.
He didn't need Chaos to lose his sons. He made one of them vanish so all his family were murdered, he told one to abandon his quest for knowledge to better humanity while doing it himself just because and planned to turn him into a glorified battery, he publicly humiliated one while destroying what was quite possibly the best thing he'd done in life so far, he made one wander into toxic smoke just to take away the victory he worked for for years rather than help him, he shoved one to the sidelines giving him no recognition while his legion suffered siege after siege but glory went to all the others, he had two sons and their legions exterminated and their legions wiped from history, he made one of his sons gene seed so that his legionaries could turn into monsters and another so that the legionaries would go insane.
Almost half the Primarchs had something bad happen to him and the rest had little reason to follow the Emperor who would kill them all off without a thought. Why? For his plan. A terrible plan to move into the Webway which would just cause an incredibly brutal war against a superior foe. The Imperium would lose the numbers advantage but have to fight to take over a labyrinth that actively tried to block them in, with nothing better than scout TItans against an enemy that can bring starships to bear against them with better soldiers, better psychic powers and if a single Eldar went radical they could easily destroy the whole Webway with D weaponry.
All the cruelty, mistreatment, war and genocide to enact an incredibly risky plan with no guarantee of payoff where the people doing the fighting would just be shoved to the side afterwards at best.
Without the Emperor humanity would be better off. Some would be on worlds like Terra yes, but some like the Interex, Diasporex and Heliosans were pretty happy. Then there were middle ground civilisations like the Olamic Quietude. Where is humanity without the Emperor? Pretty okay. They're all over, many are happy and able to live in peace and there's no genocidal jackass feeding off their life force ruling them. The Emperor just brings humanity closer to extinction not the extension bs.
Again all of this is with the luxury of hindsight, he didn't know they'd be corrupted by chaos, so it wouldn't matter the way he treated them, it only matters to you because you know that they were going to end up being corrupted. He also did those things for a reason, just because they ended up coming round to bite him in the arse doesn't mean he had to have foreseen it, as he didn't.
They were people. The way they were treated matters hugely. I don't need hindsight to say that the Emperor made lots of bad choices. He had reasons, yes, like wanting effective tools. But they were people not tools and that was a basic fact he should have known.
pm713 wrote: Really? The man actively turned his sons away from him, butchered people loyal to him and decided mass genocide was a good thing all for a plan that was altogether terrible. He sucks plain and simple.
And where would humanity be without him. They'd have died fighting each other like the techno barbarians. He had no idea that Chaos would turn his sons, you are only thinking he is terrible because you have the luxury of hindsight.
He didn't need Chaos to lose his sons. He made one of them vanish so all his family were murdered, he told one to abandon his quest for knowledge to better humanity while doing it himself just because and planned to turn him into a glorified battery, he publicly humiliated one while destroying what was quite possibly the best thing he'd done in life so far, he made one wander into toxic smoke just to take away the victory he worked for for years rather than help him, he shoved one to the sidelines giving him no recognition while his legion suffered siege after siege but glory went to all the others, he had two sons and their legions exterminated and their legions wiped from history, he made one of his sons gene seed so that his legionaries could turn into monsters and another so that the legionaries would go insane.
Almost half the Primarchs had something bad happen to him and the rest had little reason to follow the Emperor who would kill them all off without a thought. Why? For his plan. A terrible plan to move into the Webway which would just cause an incredibly brutal war against a superior foe. The Imperium would lose the numbers advantage but have to fight to take over a labyrinth that actively tried to block them in, with nothing better than scout TItans against an enemy that can bring starships to bear against them with better soldiers, better psychic powers and if a single Eldar went radical they could easily destroy the whole Webway with D weaponry.
All the cruelty, mistreatment, war and genocide to enact an incredibly risky plan with no guarantee of payoff where the people doing the fighting would just be shoved to the side afterwards at best.
Without the Emperor humanity would be better off. Some would be on worlds like Terra yes, but some like the Interex, Diasporex and Heliosans were pretty happy. Then there were middle ground civilisations like the Olamic Quietude. Where is humanity without the Emperor? Pretty okay. They're all over, many are happy and able to live in peace and there's no genocidal jackass feeding off their life force ruling them. The Emperor just brings humanity closer to extinction not the extension bs.
Again all of this is with the luxury of hindsight, he didn't know they'd be corrupted by chaos, so it wouldn't matter the way he treated them, it only matters to you because you know that they were going to end up being corrupted. He also did those things for a reason, just because they ended up coming round to bite him in the arse doesn't mean he had to have foreseen it, as he didn't.
They were people. The way they were treated matters hugely. I don't need hindsight to say that the Emperor made lots of bad choices. He had reasons, yes, like wanting effective tools. But they were people not tools and that was a basic fact he should have known.
You knowing he made mistakes is completely contingent on what happened after the fact. He did know that fact, he talked to Ra about it, Ra asked him why he allows them to call him father and the Emperor recalled the story in pinochio that they needed to see him as such. They were tools, they could never admit that to themselves, they didn't have the wisdom or the humility to realise that. The Custodes show far more wisdom and humility than the Primarchs. They acted like big babies, having temper tantrums and couldn't see past their own selfish needs.
No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
The Emperor did treat them like people and even sons, you pick a handful of moments when he was an donkey-cave and say 'look they are people, treat them as such' Only chaos said the Emperor would get rid of them. The emperor chastised me and humiliated me I'm going to follow the chaos gods, I mean seriously, who thought Lorgar would be so ridiculously petty and thin skinned. Don't study sorcery. I mean are these that monumental it would lead supposedly enlightened beings to selling their souls.
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
The Emperor did treat them like people and even sons, you pick a handful of moments when he was an donkey-cave and say 'look they are people, treat them as such' Only chaos said the Emperor would get rid of them.
And logic. He killed two of them off and how many Thunder Warriors stuck around? None because somebody killed them all off.
No, he pretended they were people to him and thought of them as tools. Hence the awful way they were treated causing issues. The Emperor is not a good person or leader or guide for humanity. Deal with it.
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
The Emperor did treat them like people and even sons, you pick a handful of moments when he was an donkey-cave and say 'look they are people, treat them as such' Only chaos said the Emperor would get rid of them.
And logic. He killed two of them off and how many Thunder Warriors stuck around? None because somebody killed them all off.
No, he pretended they were people to him and thought of them as tools. Hence the awful way they were treated causing issues. The Emperor is not a good person or leader or guide for humanity. Deal with it.
And another point in logic is that he was going to keep them around as statesmen and a kind of policing force. Yeah he did pretend, so what. The awful way he treated them, give me a break. boo hoo. The emperor chastised me and humiliated me I'm going to follow the chaos gods, I mean seriously, who thought Lorgar would be so ridiculously petty and thin skinned. Don't study sorcery. I mean are these that monumental it would lead supposedly enlightened beings to selling their souls. He saved my life and didn't allow me to die. I mean I've never liked the Primarchs that much, even Angron, I much prefer Kharn. Kharn never cried that Angron never treated him like a father. The Primarchs to me have always been big babies. Look at how the Primarchs treated their own Astartes. What Lorgar did to the Gal Vorbak as he didn't have the courage to do it first. They Primarchs treated their soldiers as expendable assets so much of the time. Look at Istvaan.
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
The Emperor did treat them like people and even sons, you pick a handful of moments when he was an donkey-cave and say 'look they are people, treat them as such' Only chaos said the Emperor would get rid of them.
And logic. He killed two of them off and how many Thunder Warriors stuck around? None because somebody killed them all off.
No, he pretended they were people to him and thought of them as tools. Hence the awful way they were treated causing issues. The Emperor is not a good person or leader or guide for humanity. Deal with it.
And another point in logic is that he was going to keep them around as statesmen and a kind of policing force. Yeah he did pretend, so what. The awful way he treated them, give me a break. boo hoo. The emperor chastised me and humiliated me I'm going to follow the chaos gods, I mean seriously, who thought Lorgar would be so ridiculously petty and thin skinned. Don't study sorcery. I mean are these that monumental it would lead supposedly enlightened beings to selling their souls. He saved my life and didn't allow me to die. I mean I've never liked the Primarchs that much, even Angron, I much prefer Kharn. The Primarchs to me have always been nig babies.
Wow. You're so into the Emperor you're rewriting things in your head aren't you?
If I walked up to you and said "every single person you've ever cared about has just been murdered. By me." you'd just be cool with that and move on?
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
The Emperor did treat them like people and even sons, you pick a handful of moments when he was an donkey-cave and say 'look they are people, treat them as such' Only chaos said the Emperor would get rid of them.
And logic. He killed two of them off and how many Thunder Warriors stuck around? None because somebody killed them all off.
No, he pretended they were people to him and thought of them as tools. Hence the awful way they were treated causing issues. The Emperor is not a good person or leader or guide for humanity. Deal with it.
And another point in logic is that he was going to keep them around as statesmen and a kind of policing force. Yeah he did pretend, so what. The awful way he treated them, give me a break. boo hoo. The emperor chastised me and humiliated me I'm going to follow the chaos gods, I mean seriously, who thought Lorgar would be so ridiculously petty and thin skinned. Don't study sorcery. I mean are these that monumental it would lead supposedly enlightened beings to selling their souls. He saved my life and didn't allow me to die. I mean I've never liked the Primarchs that much, even Angron, I much prefer Kharn. The Primarchs to me have always been nig babies.
Wow. You're so into the Emperor you're rewriting things in your head aren't you?
If I walked up to you and said "every single person you've ever cared about has just been murdered. By me." you'd just be cool with that and move on?
And If I sent the Gal Vorbak into the eye to be ass-raped by daemons because I was too cowardly to go in first. Yeah I'm more for the Emperor, he was cold and calculating, not a hypocritical cry baby.
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
The Emperor did treat them like people and even sons, you pick a handful of moments when he was an donkey-cave and say 'look they are people, treat them as such' Only chaos said the Emperor would get rid of them.
And logic. He killed two of them off and how many Thunder Warriors stuck around? None because somebody killed them all off.
No, he pretended they were people to him and thought of them as tools. Hence the awful way they were treated causing issues. The Emperor is not a good person or leader or guide for humanity. Deal with it.
And another point in logic is that he was going to keep them around as statesmen and a kind of policing force. Yeah he did pretend, so what. The awful way he treated them, give me a break. boo hoo. The emperor chastised me and humiliated me I'm going to follow the chaos gods, I mean seriously, who thought Lorgar would be so ridiculously petty and thin skinned. Don't study sorcery. I mean are these that monumental it would lead supposedly enlightened beings to selling their souls. He saved my life and didn't allow me to die. I mean I've never liked the Primarchs that much, even Angron, I much prefer Kharn. The Primarchs to me have always been nig babies.
Wow. You're so into the Emperor you're rewriting things in your head aren't you?
If I walked up to you and said "every single person you've ever cared about has just been murdered. By me." you'd just be cool with that and move on?
And If I sent the Gal Vorbak into the eye to be ass-raped by daemons because I was too cowardly to go in first. Yeah I'm more for the Emperor, he was cold and calculating, not a hypocritical cry baby.
He completely was. I know that hurts your fanboy heart.
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
The Emperor did treat them like people and even sons, you pick a handful of moments when he was an donkey-cave and say 'look they are people, treat them as such' Only chaos said the Emperor would get rid of them.
And logic. He killed two of them off and how many Thunder Warriors stuck around? None because somebody killed them all off.
No, he pretended they were people to him and thought of them as tools. Hence the awful way they were treated causing issues. The Emperor is not a good person or leader or guide for humanity. Deal with it.
And another point in logic is that he was going to keep them around as statesmen and a kind of policing force. Yeah he did pretend, so what. The awful way he treated them, give me a break. boo hoo. The emperor chastised me and humiliated me I'm going to follow the chaos gods, I mean seriously, who thought Lorgar would be so ridiculously petty and thin skinned. Don't study sorcery. I mean are these that monumental it would lead supposedly enlightened beings to selling their souls. He saved my life and didn't allow me to die. I mean I've never liked the Primarchs that much, even Angron, I much prefer Kharn. The Primarchs to me have always been nig babies.
Wow. You're so into the Emperor you're rewriting things in your head aren't you?
If I walked up to you and said "every single person you've ever cared about has just been murdered. By me." you'd just be cool with that and move on?
And If I sent the Gal Vorbak into the eye to be ass-raped by daemons because I was too cowardly to go in first. Yeah I'm more for the Emperor, he was cold and calculating, not a hypocritical cry baby.
He completely was. I know that hurts your fanboy heart.
Why would Lorgar being hypocritical hurt my fanboy heart. You are so emotionally invested in fictional characters... I don't get hurt over fiction, you have shown that you do in this thread though, you take it personally for some reason and are the only one that is emotional. I even gak on Angron, it really doesn't change your life in any way. The only reason people hate on the Emperor is, Primarchs feelings were hurt, especially since its the only thing they cite to when saying the Emperor made mistakes etc. What legion do you collect, I bet its the thousand sons.
The whole point of a story is is you have an emotional investment in the characters that's good writing although honestly I'm not that bothered about Warhammer characters as there are better stories out there.
This idea will rock your world mate - People gak on the Emperor because.....he's an ass. If you bothered to read anything you'd know people cite more.
pm713 wrote: Because you're very touchy about 40k.
The whole point of a story is is you have an emotional investment in the characters that's good writing although honestly I'm not that bothered about Warhammer characters as there are better stories out there.
This idea will rock your world mate - People gak on the Emperor because.....he's an ass. If you bothered to read anything you'd know people cite more.
You're wrong, what do I win?
I'm not touchy, you are, you are the only one being emotional here. I'm not touchy at all, I'm just a bit of an donkey-cave lol. Re-read what you have written here, you'll realise you are emotional and touchy when it comes to the Primarchs getting their feelings hurt. You are just projecting behaviour I said you are guilty of. <REMOVED> Yeah you have attachment to the characters but grown ups can divest themselves of that when talking objectively.
pm713 wrote: Because you're very touchy about 40k.
The whole point of a story is is you have an emotional investment in the characters that's good writing although honestly I'm not that bothered about Warhammer characters as there are better stories out there.
This idea will rock your world mate - People gak on the Emperor because.....he's an ass. If you bothered to read anything you'd know people cite more.
You're wrong, what do I win?
I'm not touchy, you are, you are the only one being emotional here. I'm not touchy at all, I'm just a bit of an donkey-cave lol. Re-read what you have written here, you'll realise you are emotional and touchy when it comes to the Primarchs getting their feelings hurt. You are just projecting behaviour I said you are guilty of. <REMOVED> Yeah you have attachment to the characters but grown ups can divest themselves of that when talking objectively.
Okay. I'm not the one who ignores everything they can't dispute then talks about flaming butts though...
pm713 wrote: Because you're very touchy about 40k.
The whole point of a story is is you have an emotional investment in the characters that's good writing although honestly I'm not that bothered about Warhammer characters as there are better stories out there.
This idea will rock your world mate - People gak on the Emperor because.....he's an ass. If you bothered to read anything you'd know people cite more.
You're wrong, what do I win?
I'm not touchy, you are, you are the only one being emotional here. I'm not touchy at all, I'm just a bit of an donkey-cave lol. Re-read what you have written here, you'll realise you are emotional and touchy when it comes to the Primarchs getting their feelings hurt. You are just projecting behaviour I said you are guilty of. <REMOVED> Yeah you have attachment to the characters but grown ups can divest themselves of that when talking objectively.
Okay. I'm not the one who ignores everything they can't dispute then talks about flaming butts though...
pm713 wrote: He could have very easily done things differently in a lot of ways. Some of those ways would probably have been much better. He was wrong about a fair few things and he wouldn't be the first to be wrong about Chaos.
True. Mornarchia for instance was a cluster feth. I always wondered though did the Emperor use Lorgars religious views as a reason to destroy Mornarchia because he realised how much taint existed within the city.
Or to get lorgar angry. Can't get rebellion on if some aren't unhappy
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
This boys and girls is a fantastic example of the pot calling the kettle black.
But "who cares if he has valid points" part really shows why you aren't great to talk around. You don't actually pay attention to anything and just hurl text walls at everyone while claiming they prove your point.
As an aside I don't know anyone else who routinely uses butthurt in life or on Dakka. Take from that what you will.
Haha you have noticed he does that too, I love the way he claims something then posts a quote which doesn’t actually say what he claimed.
But anyway, on topic, has anyone else noticed there seems to be an overarching theme regarding the emperor since master of mankind and first lord of the imperium, before when he or malcador would send a legion somewhere I would just read it and go “fair enough” since those books I see the iron warriors get sent to fight a pointless war and think “ah, he wanted to break the legion for later” or when he sent the lion and leman Russ tonthe same warzone with the same target I think “hmm, they were testing to see if the primarchs would fight each other”
The primarchs books seem to also be pushing this overarching narrative, anyone else noticed this.
This boys and girls is a fantastic example of the pot calling the kettle black.
But "who cares if he has valid points" part really shows why you aren't great to talk around. You don't actually pay attention to anything and just hurl text walls at everyone while claiming they prove your point.
As an aside I don't know anyone else who routinely uses butthurt in life or on Dakka. Take from that what you will.
Haha you have noticed he does that too, I love the way he claims something then posts a quote which doesn’t actually say what he claimed.
But anyway, on topic, has anyone else noticed there seems to be an overarching theme regarding the emperor since master of mankind and first lord of the imperium, before when he or malcador would send a legion somewhere I would just read it and go “fair enough” since those books I see the iron warriors get sent to fight a pointless war and think “ah, he wanted to break the legion for later” or when he sent the lion and leman Russ tonthe same warzone with the same target I think “hmm, they were testing to see if the primarchs would fight each other”
The primarchs books seem to also be pushing this overarching narrative, anyone else noticed this.
Seems to be a slightly different direction, yes. I do wonder if that's possibly more down to the BL realising they've written the Emperor as being more of a bumbling idiot than a genius though and are now trying to claw back some of that by insinuating it was the plan all along. There are implications that Russ may have fought at least one of the 2 unnamed Primarchs in the Thousand Sons books and Fear to Tread where it's mentioned that the Space Wolves are seen as the executioners of the Emperor. The problem is the Emperor seems to have so little understanding of the emotions of the Primarchs I can equally see him thinking sending the Wolves and Dark Angels to the same warzone as being a way to bring the two Primarchs closer together.
But anyway, on topic, has anyone else noticed there seems to be an overarching theme regarding the emperor since master of mankind and first lord of the imperium, before when he or malcador would send a legion somewhere I would just read it and go “fair enough” since those books I see the iron warriors get sent to fight a pointless war and think “ah, he wanted to break the legion for later” or when he sent the lion and leman Russ tonthe same warzone with the same target I think “hmm, they were testing to see if the primarchs would fight each other”
Yep, you can connect the dots. But then from the perspective of EoM you could argue that he had no notion of emotion (ha!) of what he was doing as the Primarchs were only tools to him so he sent them to do their jobs without consideration of how they would react or the situations they would get into. The Dark Angels might have simply been the most logical resource to use at that time to assist Russ on Dulan. I do also think that Celliphone(?), Perturabo's adopted sister, had Perturabo labelled right and that he was in fact to blame for the hardship of the Iron Warriors. The Emperor did send the Iron Warriors on the thankless tasks but knew that they were the ones for the job. It was Perturabo choice to do things the hard way, expecting to get the adulation when the Emperor probably just saw him doing his job.
I've not gone through the whole thread as it started to devolve into name calling and bickering but it's a bit hard to know what the outcome of the bargain would be if he upheld his side of it without actually knowing what the bargain was. I guess we can assume that it's to do with the Primarch project. The issue is that the Emperor would not have ever had upheld his side of the bargain. He knows the nature of Chaos and the threat to mankind it represents. As with everything available to the Emp, the CG were another tool available and he beat them at their own game. The problem is, you can't trust a daemon. Or can you? Something that always struck a note with me was in Fear to Tread where Ka'Bandha fights the Angel. Sanguinius accuses the Daemon of lying about Horus turning traitor to which Ka'bandha replies along the lines of why would I lie. We know the nature of the Imperium, perhaps Daemons are the only real truth teller.
Did some A LOT OF cleaning up here, I would like to remind people to STAY ON TOPIC and to keep RULE #1 in mind as well from now on. Failure to do so will result in a more direct action or some time off.
pm713 wrote: No they were people. That's obvious. The Emperor was the one who couldn't see things clearly which caused a whole bunch of problems.
I don't need to know what happens in the future to say causing someones entire family to die, making war their only motive and then planning to get rid of them later is a bad idea.
They were only people because of the scattering.
I'd argue that they were always going to be people. Granted if they'd grown up with Big E they would probably have been brainwashed into being happy as tools but there was always a random factor that needed to be taken into account by the Emperor.
Doesn't Perty upon meeting his legion send them straight into a meatgrinder to test worthyness? You can't complain about how people ask you to wage war when that's how you wage it of your own volition.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Doesn't Perty upon meeting his legion send them straight into a meatgrinder to test worthyness? You can't complain about how people ask you to wage war when that's how you wage it of your own volition.
Actually I belive he decimated the Legion killing one in ten of his troops.
