I attended a 40k ITC ranked tournament this weekend. It was a lot of fun however, one of my opponents cheated me quite badly.
The player in question was my round 4 Tau Opponent.
He cheated me on 7 separate things and I asked him to check his codex each time. I was able to catch him on 3 of them:
1) Neuroweb Jammer - Said it gave 1 of his units -1 to hit. It actually picks 1 of my units and makes it minus 1 to hit and that unit has to be within 18". This obs made killing longstrike much harder.
2) Said orbital ion beam hits all units on 4s - actually it hits characters on 5s and he used it to target 2 of my characters.
3) Claimed seeker missiles were AP-4 - they are ap-2, I asked him to check, he looked in a borrowed codex (he did not have any of his own books) and said they were AP-4, he shot them all and was able to kill 2 of my russes. I checked whilst about 2 mins after for myself and said they were AP-2. It was ruled to late to go back but this was a big deal (not arguing with TO decision, I respect the ruling of TO always, just pointing it out)
4) Claimed heavy burst cannons (on his tigersharks, he had no riptides) were AP-2 which made my steel legion trait useless (ignore ap -1), they are AP-1. Again he checked the codex and still said they were AP -2. This was HUGE! I would say this lost me the game. He was struggling to kill my tanks when I had a 5+ save with the heavy burst cannon, if I had had my 3+ it would have made a massive difference.
5) He said longstrike has 14 wounds - he actuallyhas 13 wounds. I did 13 wounds to him turn 1.
6) I asked him if I controlled an objective, he said yes. At the end of the turn he revealed a firewarrior hidden out of LOS which meant i didn't claim it. This lost me the mission bonus point.
7) Also, he tried to claim fire warriors have a 7" movemenent. This was really imporant as it tried to surround a chimera to stop the guys getting out when he killed it. But fortunately I was able to call him out on that and stop him.
I would also like to point out that he did not have any of his books, he had to borrow a codex when I called him out.
I contacted the TO with my issues.
As for my own lessons learned , I should have been more vigilant and asked him to show his rules more often, benefit of hindsight. Also I have no issues with the TOs and the event. I feel like they have dealt with issue quite well.
I still think this issue needs to be brought into the public eye I have been contacted by several people who have also had issues with (Fixing his own events to farm ITC points, blatantly cheating nearly every game, poor sportsmen ship).
I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
Putting aside the issues with this specific person for a moment, I can't understand how anyone who attends a tournament without their rules can be allowed to play in that tournament. If you don't have your own rules, and can't borrow a copy for your sole use during the event you shouldn't be allowed to play. The above incident shows why - every single one of the issues above except point 6 could be cleared up by looking at the Codex. Having said that, yes, you should have asked him to show you the rules, not just tell you, though this is also a question of gamer etiquette. If a rule query comes up and the answer favours me I will always show my opponent the relevant rule. It's just good practice to do so.
Specifics of this individual aside this highlights why tournaments should have a rule that all players attending bring the full rules for their army at the very least. It's not out of the question to expect players to bring the Battletome/Codex for their army and any related FAQ printouts from GW and one would expect all of them to own access to such material if they are at a stage where they can afford to field a tournament capable army (ergo several thousand points of models).
At the very least this prevents casual cheating by mistaken values being stated as it puts on the table all the values for both sides from the official information source. IT also escalates situations where people overtly change what is written to suit them on the hope that the other player doesn't check the codex themselves. And by escalates I mean makes cheating far more apparent.
And if its not cheating it shows significant learning difficulties in an individual who as such might not be well suited to the tournament gaming environment.
Slipspace wrote: Putting aside the issues with this specific person for a moment, I can't understand how anyone who attends a tournament without their rules can be allowed to play in that tournament. If you don't have your own rules, and can't borrow a copy for your sole use during the event you shouldn't be allowed to play. The above incident shows why - every single one of the issues above except point 6 could be cleared up by looking at the Codex. Having said that, yes, you should have asked him to show you the rules, not just tell you, though this is also a question of gamer etiquette. If a rule query comes up and the answer favours me I will always show my opponent the relevant rule. It's just good practice to do so.
Problem though is that if you ask every single rule and stat every time good luck getting more than 2 turns.
Games(not just 40k) tends to work on basic assumption of trust.
Slipspace wrote: Putting aside the issues with this specific person for a moment, I can't understand how anyone who attends a tournament without their rules can be allowed to play in that tournament. If you don't have your own rules, and can't borrow a copy for your sole use during the event you shouldn't be allowed to play. The above incident shows why - every single one of the issues above except point 6 could be cleared up by looking at the Codex. Having said that, yes, you should have asked him to show you the rules, not just tell you, though this is also a question of gamer etiquette. If a rule query comes up and the answer favours me I will always show my opponent the relevant rule. It's just good practice to do so.
Problem though is that if you ask every single rule and stat every time good luck getting more than 2 turns.
Games(not just 40k) tends to work on basic assumption of trust.
This is very true, asking someone to check in their codex normally goes with the assumption that the person will check and be honest with what they report from the codex; thus allowing the game to continue without adding in the extra step of showing the information. It helps speed things up just a little and does run on the general assumption that most players are honest - and generally they are and that's why it works.
This is where tournament policies can come into play; you can make it a policy/rule to require all players bring all rule material for their army to the event; you can also make it that any challenge to a rule must not only be met with checking the codex/rules but also showing your opponent the relevant segment of the rules. Sure not everyone would do the latter, but it would at least set it as a formal rule for the event - that in itself can be a good fallback in a game where many are not highly socially gifted* and where challenging their opponent to "prove" in the book might be more than they feel confident to do; having it in the tournament rules adds a layer of formal protection
*and even the socially competent can feel out of water when at an event that they might have travelled outside of their normal gaming circle to attend. And as such are playing total strangers.
No but really. A player muddies the perceptions of 40k tournament players and you blame the guy who was decent enough to take another person's word for it while looking him directly in the eye. As a fellow decent human if someone looks me directly in the eye and says they're not lying and I'm not sure either way I have to go with it because 1. They're just scum and they'll be punished in some way later on. 2. If i did check every time and turned out to be wrong I'd look like a jerk who was slow playing.
Slipspace wrote: Putting aside the issues with this specific person for a moment, I can't understand how anyone who attends a tournament without their rules can be allowed to play in that tournament. If you don't have your own rules, and can't borrow a copy for your sole use during the event you shouldn't be allowed to play. The above incident shows why - every single one of the issues above except point 6 could be cleared up by looking at the Codex. Having said that, yes, you should have asked him to show you the rules, not just tell you, though this is also a question of gamer etiquette. If a rule query comes up and the answer favours me I will always show my opponent the relevant rule. It's just good practice to do so.
Problem though is that if you ask every single rule and stat every time good luck getting more than 2 turns.
Games(not just 40k) tends to work on basic assumption of trust.
Agreed, you can't stop and ask about every single rule or stat. But the OP mentioned asking the opponent to check a couple of things and not then verifying it themselves which seems odd. I assume they were at least suspicious of the facts in order to ask the question. Might just be hindsight though. Difficult to say without being there at the time and seeing how the conversations went.
BaconCatBug wrote: I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
LOLWUT?
I... I have no words. I've heard of blaming the victim but this is ridiculous.
BaconCatBug wrote: I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
LOLWUT?
I... I have no words. I've heard of blaming the victim but this is ridiculous.
This is hardly victim blaming. If I went to light a barbecue, poured 30 litres of kerosene on it, lit it, got burned, then blamed the person who sold me the kerosene, who is at fault? At some point there needs to be some personal responsibility. Not asking for your opponent to show you the rules he is claiming is true, then finding out you are being cheated, is one of those instances where, yes it is the "victims" fault.
BaconCatBug wrote: Not asking for your opponent to show you the rules he is claiming is true, then finding out you are being cheated, is one of those instances where, yes it is the "victims" fault.
Except it isn't at all.
It's a basic expectation of trust in a complex game where most of us are used to looking up a stat or checking the values for an attack or unit. We do it all time, heck some people play with cards on the table or a cheat sheet with their unit stats written out because its not memorized. And most of the time the opponent doesn't need to look at that sheet for the match. If your opponent says their model has 5 wounds and just checked their codex for the fact most people would accept it as true.
The way you word it people would have to bring two codex for their army to every game; one for them and one for their opponent ot reference for the entire match.
BaconCatBug wrote: I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
LOLWUT?
I... I have no words. I've heard of blaming the victim but this is ridiculous.
This is hardly victim blaming. If I went to light a barbecue, poured 30 litres of kerosene on it, lit it, got burned, then blamed the person who sold me the kerosene, who is at fault? At some point there needs to be some personal responsibility. Not asking for your opponent to show you the rules he is claiming is true, then finding out you are being cheated, is one of those instances where, yes it is the "victims" fault.
Now I see why you're so bitter, your BBQs suck.
Also on the packet of thr kerosene there is a bunch of kegal stuff and warnings to stop you from doing this. There isn't any signs or training guides at a 40k tournament telling you you must be at inquisitor level suspicion with every player. Everyone lies all thentime, be bad humans!
Baconcatbug, I'm not gonna be a dork like the others and sass you into the ground, but I don't agree with your statement.
That being said, it's ridiculous that this Tau player was even allowed to play without bringing his codex or at least the PDF on a tablet. After the first rules breaking, i'd be busting that PDF out MYSELF every time he did an attack just to make sure.
BaconCatBug wrote: I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
LOLWUT?
I... I have no words. I've heard of blaming the victim but this is ridiculous.
This is hardly victim blaming. If I went to light a barbecue, poured 30 litres of kerosene on it, lit it, got burned, then blamed the person who sold me the kerosene, who is at fault? At some point there needs to be some personal responsibility. Not asking for your opponent to show you the rules he is claiming is true, then finding out you are being cheated, is one of those instances where, yes it is the "victims" fault.
Sure, the guy who got cheated could have been more forceful and asked to see the rules himself. That doesn't stop the cheater being the one at fault. You can tell he's at fault because he's cheating. It's not difficult to figure out.
Also "this is hardly victim blaming". Really? You literally say "It's your own fault you got cheated".
Did I say the cheater was blameless? No, because he isn't. However, it's trivial to not be cheated, and the fact the OP didn't do so is HIS fault, not the cheaters. Every single one of his points would have been avoided if he had taken on the tiniest shred of personal responsibility.
BaconCatBug wrote: I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
LOLWUT?
I... I have no words. I've heard of blaming the victim but this is ridiculous.
This is hardly victim blaming. If I went to light a barbecue, poured 30 litres of kerosene on it, lit it, got burned, then blamed the person who sold me the kerosene, who is at fault? At some point there needs to be some personal responsibility. Not asking for your opponent to show you the rules he is claiming is true, then finding out you are being cheated, is one of those instances where, yes it is the "victims" fault.
That... isn't very similar to asking an opponent if they're sure of a rule and them lying to you. Your comparison would be better as someone asks for someone to light their barbecue but the person uses 30 litres on purpose and the victim gets burned. Technically their fault but not to the level where as they're being wheeled into hospital you go "Tut tut, you should've checked."
vaklor4 wrote: Baconcatbug, I'm not gonna be a dork like the others and sass you into the ground, but I don't agree with your statement.
That being said, it's ridiculous that this Tau player was even allowed to play without bringing his codex or at least the PDF on a tablet. After the first rules breaking, i'd be busting that PDF out MYSELF every time he did an attack just to make sure.
Dude, you're on dakkadakka. You're way past being a dork.
I guess it's been a while since Доверяй, но проверяй was in the public eye. "Trust, but verify" is something everyone should take to heart in all walks of life.
This is one of the reason I hope that they make Datasheets a la Age of Sigmar. Playing Age of Sigmar and using my own units it is very handy to just hand your opponent the datasheet for the army while you roll for the unit. As good as a codex it is a bit of a timesink to leaf through the codex finding the right unit, especially since most armies are perhaps only using about 20-30% of the listed units.
I'll also echo some of the other posters' sentiment. This guy should not have been allowed to play codex less.
vaklor4 wrote: Baconcatbug, I'm not gonna be a dork like the others and sass you into the ground, but I don't agree with your statement.
That being said, it's ridiculous that this Tau player was even allowed to play without bringing his codex or at least the PDF on a tablet. After the first rules breaking, i'd be busting that PDF out MYSELF every time he did an attack just to make sure.
Dude, you're on dakkadakka. You're way past being a dork.
Nah, we're all /nerds/. But some of the people around here are total dorks.
BaconCatBug wrote: I guess it's been a while since Доверяй, но проверяй was in the public eye. "Trust, but verify" is something everyone should take to heart in all walks of life.
Not the best idea to quote russia for reasonable ideologies That's not trusting actually trusting them though, it's close but is just on the level where you check everything including things that for all you know could be extremely reasonable (14 wound longstrike instead of 13)
BaconCatBug wrote: I guess it's been a while since Доверяй, но проверяй was in the public eye. "Trust, but verify" is something everyone should take to heart in all walks of life.
But where does that end? If I'm not too familiar with an army I can't ask about every weapon without slowing the game down. With Tau especially, a player who hasn't played against them before will be confronted with a whole range of weird weapons with wide-ranging stats that don't follow much of a pattern. Then you have the various ways Tau can buff their weapons, from suit systems to markerlights. At some point you have to take what your opponent says at face value and hope they aren't a douche. The Seeker Missile thing is a good example. Plenty of one-shot weapons have good AP so if you're not familiar with the weapon and your opponent tells you it's AP-4 that doesn't come across as unbelievable.
Just watched the video. It seems that the fact he had to borrow the codex (but only when he needed it as it seems (i might be wrong) he was boring fro m another table also playing) makes the checking worse. On some of the stuff he would have had to have not only disrupted his game but may have also have had to disrupt another game. Don't know about you guys but the majority of 40k players are unlikely to be confrontational (we paint and play with plastic toys). The majority of us, I hope, are good people in real life. If I had that much pressure on me and on a time limit I'd have likely made the decision to acdept what he said (especially because I do not play tau) and move on. Right now we need to focus on the justice for the cheater then we can use this event as an example for what needs to be done at later dates.
BaconCatBug wrote: I guess it's been a while since Доверяй, но проверяй was in the public eye. "Trust, but verify" is something everyone should take to heart in all walks of life.
But where does that end? If I'm not too familiar with an army I can't ask about every weapon without slowing the game down. With Tau especially, a player who hasn't played against them before will be confronted with a whole range of weird weapons with wide-ranging stats that don't follow much of a pattern. Then you have the various ways Tau can buff their weapons, from suit systems to markerlights. At some point you have to take what your opponent says at face value and hope they aren't a douche. The Seeker Missile thing is a good example. Plenty of one-shot weapons have good AP so if you're not familiar with the weapon and your opponent tells you it's AP-4 that doesn't come across as unbelievable.
You only have to ask once per game? If he was asking every single time he fired a Pulse Rifle what the stats were, then I could see the problem. Asking once what a Seeker Missile stats are, and verifying that it's true does not slow down the game.
Just had a quick read through and while I fully believe you should be completly up-to-date and competent with what your army does, the examples you've given do give the impression that it may not have been deliberate.
Claimed seeker missiles were AP-4 - they are ap-2, I asked him to check, he looked in a borrowed codex (he did not have any of his own books) and said they were AP-4
He may have got mixed up with Destroyer Missiles.
Claimed heavy burst cannons (on his tigersharks, he had no riptides) were AP-2 which made my steel legion trait useless (ignore ap -1), they are AP-1.
Would the Advanced Targeting System possibly be affecting this?
Also, he tried to claim fire warriors have a 7" movemenent.
Pathfinders actually do have a 7" movement, there may have been confusion there.
Now I'm not making up excuses for him; like I said you should be fully aware of what your army does or have a Codex/Index on hand in case you're unsure, but the point I do make is that perhaps this is less deliberate cheating and more the mistakes of someone who needs to learn the rules more.
The important thing here is that from how OP presented it he was suspicious of the stats his opponent was giving him. If a bunch of things keep seeming off you should check for yourself. Once you've checked and they're right, probably give them the benefit of the doubt for the rest of the game. If they were wrong, don't straight up assume they're doing it maliciously to intentionally cheat but check next time something else seems off. If they get several things wrong then there's a real problem. "Trust but verify" doesn't mean be polite but assume every word that comes out of their mouth is a lie. It means giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're not cheating, but maybe they remembered something wrong, so check. That way you catch cheating but you also know for the future what the book says. If someone says the turned the gas off it doesn't hurt to take two seconds to check. If it's still on it doesn't mean they're trying to burn down your house, they probably genuinely thought they did turn it off.
On the matter of showing up a tournament without your rules that is unacceptable. It should be a requirement of entry to have the relevant rules for your models on hand when you sign up. Expecting the average person to have all their units stats and rules memorised verbatim is insanity. If you show up without your rules in either hardcopy or digital you should be denied entry and have any fees paid in advance refunded.
Okay Bacon, let's analyse your orginal comment in detail to see where I think you went wrong:
You typed:
I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
Now, you must really believe in this comment as you put in the effort to say 'I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there'. This shows you are doubling down on the belief that everything you said is, in your opinion, 100% true.
Moreover, let's get to the heart of the comment:
1. 'Instead of whining': I don't see him as whining like you say. I see him as suspecting a man of cheating, going away to research/gather evidence for the cheating, reportingthe guy as a cheater to the tournament boards and calling the guy out so others can be aware thathe might cheat.
2.'It's your own fault you got cheated': this is factually wrong. Firstly, he didn't mind control the man into cheating. Secondly, even if he did call him out earlier he still got cheated so it dtill wouldn't be his fault. Finally, Mordian did make a mistake (he even says this in his video) but it is not his fault he got cheated, it is the cheaters fault.
3. 'to kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty': going over what already was said. Mordian admits it's a mistake he didn't call him out. But he goes over how he saw him physically check the codex and reassure him that there was no cheating so he believed them (those are his rules, he asks for a double check then moves on and wouldn't expeft someone to just blatantly lie to his face). But he appears to be making this video not to kick up a fuss or drama, he stays emotionless throughout the video, but to highlight the cheater to others so they do not make a similar mistake and just don't ven play him. Nobody but you sees him as petty, maybe he is upset someone in the community would be such a douche, but we see him as a hero for cleaning up the community.
4.'you're the one at fault'. Again, no... no he is not the one at fault. The only way he could be at fault is if he put a gun to the other guys head and told him to cheat. The only way he could ever avoid cheating is if he just didn't play 40k.
When I worked as a sales man we had a policy. Never confront a potential thief or liar. If they're desperate or evil enough to steal valuable jewellery then they're likely to have a plan if it goes wrong and that plan always end up with you losing more than just a ring. The best thing to do is let them leave the shop and deal with the event afterwards. I remember people would take things behind my back so obviously and struggle to keep a straight face... they're bad people. I was not at blame for them stealing and lying. One time one of my colleagues tried to stop the guy and ended up with a slash across his for arm and a night in A&E. It's honestly not worth all the effort and discomfort. Mordian did the right thing and called this guy out after the fact so multiple people can avoid him.
To the OP, you may want to remove the guys name your shaming. By all means explain what happened but I think naming and shaming goes against forum rules.
Huron black heart wrote: To the OP, you may want to remove the guys name your shaming. By all means explain what happened but I think naming and shaming goes against forum rules.
If the mods request I remove it, I will do without any issue.
To be fair you might be wise to remove it, with the name alone i did hardly any googling and found his email address and what might be family members etc on facebook .
this is the internet, some moron/s will go after him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did email him to let him know and he had a community response
Hi XXX, XXX here.
First off I would like to apologise if you feel you have been cheated against.
I will address each complain you made against me, but first off I'll point out that there is a big big difference between cheating and making rules mistakes. Cheating is a deliberate action made with intent. If you believe this is something I did then I am frankly offended and can categorically state I do not cheat!!
You stated I checked my codex. Actually XXX had my codex next to you, and at many points YOU looked up the rules, not me. Since you had constant access to the codex, please don't blame me for reading anything wrong.
Now to get to your complaints.
1. You have made reference to orbital bombard. It does indeed hit on 4+. And i do not remember trying to ever hit a character with. Why would I? They are anti tank one use.
2. The ap-2 burst cannons. This was my mistake. Not cheating!! I have spent the whole of 8th using riptides, this is my first time ever using tigersharks.
But your claim it cost you the game is simply false. When a game is close, its close, when you have 1 model left and your opponent has most of his army left.... Its not close. So it didn't cost you the match.
3. The ap value of the seekers. This was done and pointed out in front of the T.O and frankly its rediculous you are mentioning a issue that was resolved that caused no problems, and I even let loose any missiles I had left. You then said in front of the T.O that you were.... Quote "Very happy with that"
4. Your mention of - 1 to hit I played right. Remember I had 2 commanders and they were always near your unit I made - 1. I'm not sure where your confusion with my play in this is, but I did play it correct. The only thing I can think is you may have interpreted my wording as a - 1 to hit for the unit. This is a misunderstanding.
5. Your complaint about my hidden fire warrior. This one makes no sense. You had a warlord near an objective. You asked if he was on the objective. I said yes. Because yes your warlord was in 3" of it. But my firewarrior controlled it. Thats tactical play and its not my job to tell you where my stuff is.
6. Wounds on longstrike. I can't comment on this because I don't remember saying that nor you doing 13 wounds right off. If I comment on this I would be lieing, so I can only apologise if this is the case.
Also I have all my books for all my units with me. Why wouldn't I.
Now while I understand loosing a game is never fun, I am a little upset given I really enjoyed playing you and our game. I have zero interest in. Cheating as it means any win I have is worthless. It degrades me as a player, and de values any standing I have.
So I once again state I did not cheat. I may have made a rule mistake, but these things do happen. And I apologise once again.
Seems like case closed with an apology. Take the bloody name down this is the internet in 2018 with all the insane entitled self righteousness that goes with that.
Clearly Imperial propaganda to discredit the greater good!
On a more serious note it's a shame you've run into such a dishonest opponent, but good to hear its the first major one in 10yrs of tournament play. Not sure calling him out by name in public forums is for the good of the community though...
Also must disagree with Bacon, if we can't trust other players at all it might as well be a contest of con jobs and sleight of hand.
BaconCatBug wrote: I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
I actually think this is a terrible suggestion, and a rather horrid post about the mentalaty of the gamr.
First off you do not know you are being cheated. Where do you stop assuming something is fine, and start asking questions? Do you calculate the opponents army list to make sure he does not cheat there? How about double cheking his movement, he could be cheating on the inches? Do the unit in question actually have the movement range stated? Do you check all weapon profiles every turn? As you can see this leads down a rabbit hole and we would just end up discussing semantics about where to draw the line in the sand about when to see if your opponent is cheating.
Instead, cheating should not be allowed. In Magic the Gathering Criss Picula organised a stand against cheating. The mentalaty was that cheating was like getting a foul in football. If it went unoticed all the better for the cheater. Picula instead wanted a better state of game where cheating is not allowed. The warhammer enviorment should thrive to that same degree of sportsmanship.
BaconCatBug saying it i the cheated persons fault for not notesign it is wrong. You are blaming the victim. You are saying that not notesign you got cheated is on you, as opposed to it being on the one who cheated. While I am not speculating in your motive statements like that can be interpreted by people who thinks cheating is 'just part of the game' and are fine doing it that you are on their side.
Calling some one out on a forum is a consquence of cheating. Once a message is sent you do not know how it will be interpreted by the reviever, the cheater being here called out. I am not a fan of the justice of the mob, but if no other revenue for stoping cheaters excists this is what happens.
As a last note, please do not condone cheating in your local gaming store or on tournaments. It is bad for the game, it should not be tolerated.
tneva82 wrote: Problem though is that if you ask every single rule and stat every time good luck getting more than 2 turns.
Games(not just 40k) tends to work on basic assumption of trust.
I usually ask for my opponent's codex during their movement phase, when there is little to do for me outside of standing around and checking that they don't move more than they should.
If a rule strikes me as odd, I'll also interrupt the game and ask to see it, but that happens less than once per game.
BaconCatBug wrote: I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
LOLWUT?
I... I have no words. I've heard of blaming the victim but this is ridiculous.
Yup. Pretty low.
Maybe a fellow rules manipulator?
Someone said it best (this topic has become more about cheaters in general rather than this 1 guy so i'll refer to all cheating). When you enter a 40k tourney you most likely do it for fun. You would never suspect or even think the person you are playing would stoop so low as to cheat at what is effectively a game designed for children to young adults. So you take the person for their word and hope for the best that you are paranoid.
As for the apology, it's hard to tell. this is the usual list I see copy pasted every time someone gets accused. However, I wasn't there so I don't know. The evidence from past accusations leads me to believe it could be cheating but I can't call it either way.
I can tell you, that of the claims, the not having his rules, is not entirely accurate, the reason he got a codex from another table was because he was lending his codex to his friend on said table (who was also borrowing his army).
Of the other claims, I cant say one way or another because i wasn't there, but I will point out that at present the OP has made some very damaging claims about someone, with zero proof.
If any or all of these claims are truthful or not, it should not matter at this point because there is no way to verify them. I'll admit that my friend doesn't have the most stellar of reputations, because he plays hard, and sometimes that kind of effort doesn't win over people. but in the western world (and in the country that the event took place in), a person is innocent until proven guilty, we should extend this courtesy to our hobby also, because without it, we become a mob.
Lets treat people like human beings, and not ruin someones reputation, and hobby over a single game that went bad.
Regardless of my relationship with the accused, I would much rather believe in the altruism of a person, and mistakes, rather than that someone was actively malicious. And in the end, the OP could look back at this game, as just one game where he didn't get some ultimately meaningless points, and both he and his opponent learned some more about the rules.
So yeah, looking things up, the guy in question is in the top 100 on the ITC rankings.
Zero excuse for anything that OP referenced, especially not having a codex. Dakka may have an issue with sharing his name, but it's still being dragged out elsewhere. Dude will soon end up black listed, no question.
I can tell you, that of the claims, the not having his rules, is not entirely accurate, the reason he got a codex from another table was because he was lending his codex to his friend on said table (who was also borrowing his army).
No excuse, for either of them. You enter a tourney and you have your codex. End of.
If they both want to use Tau and only have one codex, tough gak. Either buy another one or use another army. That fact his "friend" has just happened to "borrow" his codex in a high stakes situation like this just looks so dodgy I wouldn't be surprised if they're in cahoots. I've played enough people pulling fast ones in my time to know when it's not a genuine mistake. Everything the OP says correlates with my own experiences with suspected cheaters.
I can tell you, that of the claims, the not having his rules, is not entirely accurate, the reason he got a codex from another table was because he was lending his codex to his friend on said table (who was also borrowing his army).
No excuse, for either of them. You enter a tourney and you have your codex. End of.
If they both want to use Tau and only have one codex, tough gak. Either buy another one or use another army. That fact his "friend" has just happened to "borrow" his codex in a high stakes situation like this just looks so dodgy I wouldn't be surprised if they're in cahoots. I've played enough people pulling fast ones in my time to know when it's not a genuine mistake. Everything the OP says correlates with my own experiences with suspected cheaters.
Yeah, this is utterly unsat. It reeks of gaming the system to try to gain advantage. Sorry bro, but none of your statement does anything to give this guy a pass. Especially the part where he blatantly lied about rules to gain advantage.
I don't want to break the forum rules, but I have an over all question about people caught cheating in US/UK tournaments. what is the sense of not showing their name/face? If people don't know who those people are, then the same people are going to cheat at other events or other games. They may rake up a huge toll of people having a very bad game expiriance. Plus am not 100% sure, but I think that people who dare to cheat at big events, where the chance to get caught is high, cheat in store games too. Wouldn't it be nice to have some sort of list of those people, at least for event orgs or store owners to look in to? If someone cheats and gets caught he shouldn't be given a free pass to play other games or just switching to playing other stores. Also a public shaming may stop more then a few people from trying to cheat, and people being more careful while they play to not end up black listed.
I can tell you, that of the claims, the not having his rules, is not entirely accurate, the reason he got a codex from another table was because he was lending his codex to his friend on said table (who was also borrowing his army).
No excuse, for either of them. You enter a tourney and you have your codex. End of.
If they both want to use Tau and only have one codex, tough gak. Either buy another one or use another army. That fact his "friend" has just happened to "borrow" his codex in a high stakes situation like this just looks so dodgy I wouldn't be surprised if they're in cahoots. I've played enough people pulling fast ones in my time to know when it's not a genuine mistake. Everything the OP says correlates with my own experiences with suspected cheaters.
A high stakes situation? Its a medium sized uk event, not LVO.
lets re-evaluate, based upon your previous experiences, your'e also willing to bring into question the reputation of another event attendee. How dare someone borrow some stuff and share a rulebook with someone else in a relatively minor (no offence to the TO) event?!
I kinda get how someone would be mad about being cheated (and like i say, in almost all situations I prefer to believe in altruism rather than malicious intent), but just not having a rule book immediately available, but having it within 30 seconds of you, is completely unacceptable?
Karol wrote: I don't want to break the forum rules, but I have an over all question about people caught cheating in US/UK tournaments. what is the sense of not showing their name/face? If people don't know who those people are, then the same people are going to cheat at other events or other games.
The problem with public naming and shaming includes, and is not limited to
1) Witch hunts. Someone gets outed as a cheater (false or true) and things go stupid. Someone finds their email and sends horrific hate mail; someone finds their facebook and spams it; someone finds friends or family and spams them; heck some people have been known to get their bosses called at their workplace about things totally unrelated to their professional work. Ergo it can spiral out of control - often within only a day or so - and yet do extreme lasting damage WAY beyond what any punishment should be for cheating at playing toy soldiers.
2) Opinion and Interpretation. Not everyone who gets one or several things wrong in a game is out to cheat; they could be playing a new army or such and make more mistakes than normal and get flagged as a cheater. Furthermore the person writing the accusation could be doing so from memory so already both sides could remember the same game in different ways. As a result even the accusations could be impossible to prove or disprove.
Note this one reduces only IF there is a live recording of the game itself, then at least there is a record of the game - now whilst this still isn't perfect, it at least reduces some of the errors of memory.
3) It's not really needed. Tournaments and major events don't need to publicaly out cheaters. Instead what SHOULD happen is that there should be a resource for tournament organisers to consult which allows them to review the playing history, and accusations or logged TO/Official rulings on players. Typically a cheater can only be told from a poor player when one looks at the long term history not one isolated game where the line between mistake and cheat can be very hazy and depends often on interpretation.
4) Again Witch Hunts - I'm highlighting it for a second time because this really is the biggest issue and the main reason why its a bad idea. Now yes you could argue that if option 3 were to come to pass then that formal setup would result in known banned individuals from events; but the whole approach of that is different. It's not "Dave" who was cheated in that recent game its "we've seen patterns and this is what we decided and that's it" which tends to result in a lot less drama. In fact the latter only tends to result in drama if the person who is accused MAKES it public drama on their own.
I can tell you, that of the claims, the not having his rules, is not entirely accurate, the reason he got a codex from another table was because he was lending his codex to his friend on said table (who was also borrowing his army).
No excuse, for either of them. You enter a tourney and you have your codex. End of.
If they both want to use Tau and only have one codex, tough gak. Either buy another one or use another army. That fact his "friend" has just happened to "borrow" his codex in a high stakes situation like this just looks so dodgy I wouldn't be surprised if they're in cahoots. I've played enough people pulling fast ones in my time to know when it's not a genuine mistake. Everything the OP says correlates with my own experiences with suspected cheaters.
Yeah, this is utterly unsat. It reeks of gaming the system to try to gain advantage. Sorry bro, but none of your statement does anything to give this guy a pass. Especially the part where he blatantly lied about rules to gain advantage.
my statement isn't meant to exonerate, its meant to simply point out that, there is 0 evidence, and all we have is the testimony of a single player. I don't intend to call into doubt his truthfulness either, I am merely pointing out that, we simply cannot know the exact truth of this situation, and therefore it would be wrong of us to arbitrarily mark this person as in the wrong.
If i had an argument with someone, and then that person accused me of assault, then without any evidence to back up this accusation, it should be ignored. Again I am not accusing the OP of lying, I'm just merely stating that our concepts of justice should require a proof, and without that proof we become savages and are thrown to the whims of the accusers.
You know very well it is not 30 sec, it wouldn't be 30 sec even if both players were playing on tables next to each other. And if a timer was being used, then checking the rules happens durning the asking dude timer. And that would be bad. Imagine the dudes would share something like a tape or dice with each other, would you be ok with it then?
I can tell you, that of the claims, the not having his rules, is not entirely accurate, the reason he got a codex from another table was because he was lending his codex to his friend on said table (who was also borrowing his army).
No excuse, for either of them. You enter a tourney and you have your codex. End of.
If they both want to use Tau and only have one codex, tough gak. Either buy another one or use another army. That fact his "friend" has just happened to "borrow" his codex in a high stakes situation like this just looks so dodgy I wouldn't be surprised if they're in cahoots. I've played enough people pulling fast ones in my time to know when it's not a genuine mistake. Everything the OP says correlates with my own experiences with suspected cheaters.
A high stakes situation? Its a medium sized uk event, not LVO.
lets re-evaluate, based upon your previous experiences, your'e also willing to bring into question the reputation of another event attendee. How dare someone borrow some stuff and share a rulebook with someone else in a relatively minor (no offence to the TO) event?!
I kinda get how someone would be mad about being cheated (and like i say, in almost all situations I prefer to believe in altruism rather than malicious intent), but just not having a rule book immediately available, but having it within 30 seconds of you, is completely unacceptable?
Firstly it was a GT. That's a big event. It shouldn't matter period though, if it was a little 8 man RTT, or a 350 man event. His actions affected this guy negatively. We can assume it affected all 5 of his opponents that way. Then you look at everyone else who were jostled around in placings because of his cheating. It tends to effect the entire event.
Secondly, the rules stated to bring a codex. He broke that rule the second he showed up.
Thirdly when he did look at a book, per the OP, he lied about what was in it. End of story, plain as day, clear cut cheating.
All that being said, a lot of this rests on the TO's shoulders as well. After making multiple trips to the table and saying "you caught him using his rules wrong to late, keep playing"... that's garbage. A clear pattern was being established and they just ignored it.
Karol wrote: I don't want to break the forum rules, but I have an over all question about people caught cheating in US/UK tournaments. what is the sense of not showing their name/face? If people don't know who those people are, then the same people are going to cheat at other events or other games. They may rake up a huge toll of people having a very bad game expiriance. Plus am not 100% sure, but I think that people who dare to cheat at big events, where the chance to get caught is high, cheat in store games too. Wouldn't it be nice to have some sort of list of those people, at least for event orgs or store owners to look in to? If someone cheats and gets caught he shouldn't be given a free pass to play other games or just switching to playing other stores. Also a public shaming may stop more then a few people from trying to cheat, and people being more careful while they play to not end up black listed.
The issue isn't so much with TO's having a list of confirmed cheaters that are excluded.
But public "outing" of people especially with real names can have some horrible unintended consequences.
Most people go oh remeber name If I play against him check his rules and all is fine.
Its the minority that go full psycho that are the problem, they start harassing them and their family via social media, email their employer. Some are even crazy enough to send actual death threats(not heard of this in 40K yet) to people, heck thats esentially what swatting is in the states and people have died as a result. Loosing your life for beating some dude at fifa shows something very wrong with modern society.
Karol wrote: I don't want to break the forum rules, but I have an over all question about people caught cheating in US/UK tournaments. what is the sense of not showing their name/face? If people don't know who those people are, then the same people are going to cheat at other events or other games. They may rake up a huge toll of people having a very bad game expiriance. Plus am not 100% sure, but I think that people who dare to cheat at big events, where the chance to get caught is high, cheat in store games too. Wouldn't it be nice to have some sort of list of those people, at least for event orgs or store owners to look in to? If someone cheats and gets caught he shouldn't be given a free pass to play other games or just switching to playing other stores. Also a public shaming may stop more then a few people from trying to cheat, and people being more careful while they play to not end up black listed.
The problem is that stating an allegation as if it's fact can do damage to someone's reputation that is very difficult to repair, which is why naming people is generally not done - a single false allegation can cause a lot of problems and it's pretty easy to maliciously accuse someone who has done nothing wrong (not saying that's what happened here). It's extremely difficult to repair that reputation after it's revealed the original allegation was a lie. You're correct, though, that this also helps out genuine cheats because they get to hide behind anonymity.
One of the interesting things that came out of the last two big cheating scandals at the LGT and ATC is that on both occasions the person or people involved apparently had a bit of a reputation for bending the rules. This was fairly common knowledge among regular tournament attendees. There was even one anecdote from a contributor on the FLG website that they requested a judge stationed at their table for a whole game at a big tournament because they were playing one of these guys who everyone knew played quite loose with the rules. The judge agreed after hearing who the player was. That doesn't paint the whole tournament scene in a good light, IMO.
I'd love to have some middle ground between the two extremes of complete anonymity and a Wild West where accusations can fly around without proof. I think having TOs adopt a system for reporting potential cheating and sharing that information with each other would be a good step. At the moment a lot of incidents are dealt with in isolation but building up a picture of repeated offences might help weed out the unscrupulous players. Also, anyone caught unequivocally cheating absolutely should be named and shamed. Again, you need a system for determining the threshold for that, but I think it's in the community's interests to know who these people are.
Ice_can wrote: Its the minority that go full psycho that are the problem, they start harassing them and their family via social media, email their employer. Some are even crazy enough to send actual death threats(not heard of this in 40K yet) to people, heck thats esentially what swatting is in the states and people have died as a result. Loosing your life for beating some dude at fifa shows something very wrong with modern society.
We have just enough "That Guy" in my area that this can become an issue. Not to the degree of SWATting, but we've had dudes start rumors that someone is a 'cheater' in some way, and without it being a big deal (dude was 2 points over because he forgot to take some Storm Bolter off or something)- and it's followed them to a point where they're banned from all tournaments in the area over a trivial mistake.
But public "outing" of people especially with real names can have some horrible unintended consequences.
And that is a a bad thing ? You do something wrong, you get punished. Don't want to get punished, don't break the law or if you still want to do it, learn to not get caught.
Most people go oh remeber name If I play against him check his rules and all is fine.
I am not a long time player, but from what I read about cheaters in w40k, it seems like people cheat at some events, then play other games or play at events run by other people constantly. Till something HUGE happens and they are caught on tape, and then all of the sudden half the internet points out that everyone knew that they do shady stuff.
Loosing your life for beating some dude at fifa shows something very wrong with modern society.
I don't understand the argument. First of all crazy people are going to do crazy things, no matter what rules are in effect. And in the American shoting example, the dudes opponents did not cheat, the guy had psychological problems and couldn't handle losing on that day. Also with the amount of dread socking being given as an example of how to deal with cheaters, sweaty people, people playing the game the wrong way, I thought that people playing GW games are used to physical threat. You know the same way, if you go to a football match and the teams hooligans have a fued, you assume there chance of getting beat up is there and probablly high, no matter if you yourself are an active hooligan or not.
We have just enough "That Guy" in my area that this can become an issue. Not to the degree of SWATting, but we've had dudes start rumors that someone is a 'cheater' in some way, and without it being a big deal (dude was 2 points over because he forgot to take some Storm Bolter off or something)- and it's followed them to a point where they're banned from all tournaments in the area over a trivial mistake.
Then either learn to not make mistakes, let people check your list if you can't do it yourself or don't play at events. Playing at events is not an obligatory thing to do.
I mean imagine someone in any type of sports, coming up and saying that he forgot that he was taking steroids or something like that, plus it is no biggy he is big without it anyway, it only gives him a small edge?
What if in one of the dudes games the wounds from the SB ment a squad went under half strenght, and wasn't able to score, and the game ended with a 13/7 instead of a 17/3 ? Just 2 points and the difference in rank could be huge.
But public "outing" of people especially with real names can have some horrible unintended consequences.
And that is a a bad thing ? You do something wrong, you get punished. Don't want to get punished, don't break the law or if you still want to do it, learn to not get caught.
A punishment must fit the crime. Caught cheating at Warhammer in a Tournament - Tournament ban from that event.
Caught cheating at several - likely a ban at most events - at most it could even extend to local clubs banning a player.
It doesn't mean getting death threats; harassment at your workplace and home; losing your job; losing friends and family; loss of income; allegations following a person for years if not decades etc..
They've cheated at toy soldiers, not killed someone in cold blooded murder.
Thing is with the internet you can't control who does stupid and sometimes these things spiral out of all proportion. An innocent 2 points over cheat suddenly ends up as the focus of hate and anger from people in a thread that spirals way into other situations and yet the original person takes the rap and the blame suddenly all upon their shoulders - suddenly they get death threats from one idiot - et c...
In short a curated list held by tournament officials at least contains the damage and influence of cheating within the hobby and community itself and assures that the punishment FITS the crime. Officials also tend to be a bit more level headed and less emotional about a situation and thus less likely to blow it out of proportion.
In the end the objective is to remove cheaters and discourage cheaters from the wargaming community not from society itself.
But public "outing" of people especially with real names can have some horrible unintended consequences.
And that is a a bad thing ? You do something wrong, you get punished. Don't want to get punished, don't break the law or if you still want to do it, learn to not get caught.
You do know people can lie, right? Or that people can misremember details, or simply be wrong about what happened? The problem with outing people is we can't know at the point they are outed whether the allegation is genuine or not. The problem isn't with what happens to genuine cheats, it's what happens to those wrongly accused.
Karol wrote: I don't understand the argument. First of all crazy people are going to do crazy things, no matter what rules are in effect. And in the American shoting example, the dudes opponents did not cheat, the guy had psychological problems and couldn't handle losing on that day. Also with the amount of dread socking being given as an example of how to deal with cheaters, sweaty people, people playing the game the wrong way, I thought that people playing GW games are used to physical threat. You know the same way, if you go to a football match and the teams hooligans have a fued, you assume there chance of getting beat up is there and probablly high, no matter if you yourself are an active hooligan or not.
Dude, people are crazy. Years ago, a relatively small MMORPG was shut down, but there were private servers out there capable of hosting games for a select few. You had to be invited, never share any links, and everyone was screened. They were trying to avoid the toxic players showing up. I invited a guy I had become friends with a year or so after the game shut down, and the dude was pretty chill... so I invited him, and he knew about it. Well, come to find out he had multiple accounts banned from the original game and was a pretty toxic person. He got declined, and I had to tell him. I had to tell him up front, "Your behavior was unacceptable, and if I would have known some of the things you did on your other accounts I'd have never invited you to begin with. Good luck finding a different server."
He demanded links. I declined. Then it got scary. Not just him, but DOZENS of people published my information online. This guy had a small cult of followers that were just as fethed up as he was, and they came at me and it is quite honestly one of the most harrowing experiences of my life other than actual combat in Afghanistan. Let that sink in.
Workplace, names of my family members, where I lived, my phone number, emails, pictures of my home and vehicles, who I was dating- I had to have a 3-year online blackout and move. It was scary enough that I had a gun with me everywhere I went. I had to jump through hoops and delete a lot of my online work and spend quite a bit of money to clean my tracks. And even through that, I'm sure that the only reason that it stopped was because the dude got caught taking pictures of his stepkids in very disturbing activities (related to the online activities I'd been told he'd done).
This was over a dead MMORPG. And not only that- one that had multiple bootleg private servers out there he could have found.
...Sorry, but you just never know who's psycho and how many supporters they have.
BaconCatBug wrote: I saw your post on reddit, and I'll say here what I said there.
Instead of whining, why not just ask your opponent to show you the rules next time? It's your own fault you got cheated. To kick up a fuss after the fact just comes across as petty, especially since you're the one at fault.
LOLWUT?
I... I have no words. I've heard of blaming the victim but this is ridiculous.
Yup. Pretty low.
Maybe a fellow rules manipulator?
Given the smattering of of recent events (that were reported) don’t you mean, “He must be a top tournament winning wh40k player?”
If any or all of these claims are truthful or not, it should not matter at this point because there is no way to verify them. I'll admit that my friend doesn't have the most stellar of reputations, because he plays hard, and sometimes that kind of effort doesn't win over people.
A fair number of people who go to tournaments 'play hard' usually most of them don't have a poor rep; that's kind of a bad omen to begin with. When the same hard playing person doesn't know his main army's own rules it becomes kind of suspicious.
How is it the first time playing seekers, tigersharks, FW and stratagems and at the same time one feels comfortable enough to dismiss the opponents doubts? Why pick up the codex if you're not going to bother getting the right values/rules?
If the casual teen who plays once every couple of weeks would have made fewer mistakes by checking his dex now and again, most will assume its malicious rather than just a series of blunders.
This is the internet. People forget how crazy other people can be. I've seen people murdered over stuff online (actually killed by people who think they're just serving justice over a stupid game. Let's not forget the recent e sports shootings).
It's why I'm okay with people hiding their identity or refusing to be a part of events (good example is when a female gamers boyfriend was harassed by people online who would send prostitutes and private detectives to them in an attempt to split them up). Any mention of me saying he should be called out I now redact. I meant cheaters shouod be called out in an official sense to the right authority.
As for this dude, I hear Mordian only did this video and announcement because several people have come forward with similar experiences and asked him to do it. I also hear (not sure how true this is so could do with someone sending sources or something) that thr guy in question and threatened violence in the past to previous accusers. But again, no idea how true this is so can't comment but would be great if someone could correct me on this as I'd hate to find out that was true.
A fair number of people who go to tournaments 'play hard' usually most of them don't have a poor rep; that's kind of a bad omen to begin with. When the same hard playing person doesn't know his main army's own rules it becomes kind of suspicious.
How is it the first time playing seekers, tigersharks, FW and stratagems and at the same time one feels comfortable enough to dismiss the opponents doubts? Why pick up the codex if you're not going to bother getting the right values/rules?
If the casual teen who plays once every couple of weeks would have made fewer mistakes by checking his dex now and again, most will assume its malicious rather than just a series of blunders.
That is so true. A guy who maybe plays his 2-3ed event with the army or at least some of the units, has god knows how many training games behind him, suddenly forgets that his FW unit X doesn't have -1AP or that some rules interactions can't happen. And what is worse, if you don't call them out the very second they do it, it all ends like the last Interplanetario did for a polish player. TO tell you that the next round is already fixed, your opponent says he is "sorry" but of course he does get ruling in his favor etc.
"First off I would like to apologise if you feel you have been cheated against.
I will address each complain you made against me, but first off I'll point out that there is a big big difference between cheating and making rules mistakes. Cheating is a deliberate action made with intent. If you believe this is something I did then I am frankly offended and can categorically state I do not cheat!!
You stated I checked my codex. Actually Adam had my codex next to you, and at many points YOU looked up the rules, not me. Since you had constant access to the codex, please don't blame me for reading anything wrong.
Now to get to your complaints.
1. You have made reference to orbital bombard. It does indeed hit on 4+. And i do not remember trying to ever hit a character with. Why would I? They are anti tank one use.
2. The ap-2 burst cannons. This was my mistake. Not cheating!! I have spent the whole of 8th using riptides, this is my first time ever using tigersharks.
But your claim it cost you the game is simply false. When a game is close, its close, when you have 1 model left and your opponent has most of his army left.... Its not close. So it didn't cost you the match.
3. The ap value of the seekers. This was done and pointed out in front of the T.O and frankly its rediculous you are mentioning a issue that was resolved that caused no problems, and I even let loose any missiles I had left. You then said in front of the T.O that you were.... Quote "Very happy with that"
4. Your mention of - 1 to hit I played right. Remember I had 2 commanders and they were always near your unit I made - 1. I'm not sure where your confusion with my play in this is, but I did play it correct. The only thing I can think is you may have interpreted my wording as a - 1 to hit for the unit. This is a misunderstanding.
5. Your complaint about my hidden fire warrior. This one makes no sense. You had a warlord near an objective. You asked if he was on the objective. I said yes. Because yes your warlord was in 3" of it. But my firewarrior controlled it. Thats tactical play and its not my job to tell you where my stuff is.
6. Wounds on longstrike. I can't comment on this because I don't remember saying that nor you doing 13 wounds right off. If I comment on this I would be lieing, so I can only apologise if this is the case.
Also I have all my books for all my units with me. Why wouldn't I.
Now while I understand loosing a game is never fun, I am a little upset given I really enjoyed playing you and our game. I have zero interest in. Cheating as it means any win I have is worthless. It degrades me as a player, and de values any standing I have.
So I once again state I did not cheat. I may have made a rule mistake, but these things do happen. And I apologise once again."
If any or all of these claims are truthful or not, it should not matter at this point because there is no way to verify them. I'll admit that my friend doesn't have the most stellar of reputations, because he plays hard, and sometimes that kind of effort doesn't win over people.
A fair number of people who go to tournaments 'play hard' usually most of them don't have a poor rep; that's kind of a bad omen to begin with. When the same hard playing person doesn't know his main army's own rules it becomes kind of suspicious.
How is it the first time playing seekers, tigersharks, FW and stratagems and at the same time one feels comfortable enough to dismiss the opponents doubts? Why pick up the codex if you're not going to bother getting the right values/rules?
If the casual teen who plays once every couple of weeks would have made fewer mistakes by checking his dex now and again, most will assume its malicious rather than just a series of blunders.
I'd like to point to exhibit A on the accused standings as an expert of the Tau codex. His claims that he didn't know the rules for the units, does not fly.
Edit: Before anyone gets upset that I linked something where his name is posted, I'll just clean it up. He wrote an Op-Ed for Frontline Gaming, about how to use Tau post big-FAQ, so rather recently. In it, he made it clear he was the best Tau player in the UK, listing a host of references to support his claim.
My 2c. I don’t know the OP, and since I wasn’t there I can’t corroborate whether this was as he says or no. I did think the video was well done through, and he kept his cool under what must have felt like a lot of disappointment at the supposed treatment he received.
However..
I have played this individual. Many of the people on the UK scene know this guy, and this type of behaviour is common place. Blatant lies and outrageous sportsmanship is his modus operandi.
Normally, i would agree that outing people on the internet is poor taste, but this guy has been trying to spoil weekends for 40k’ers around Scotland and England for years now. He really has brought it on himself. It must be horrible for those that have got reputations - deserved or no - if they want to enjoy a stress free weekend of tournament gaming meeting new gamers. However, if you are continually lying and bullying opponents to the point of ruining their weekend - which is what this individual does, I have witnessed this - then sooner or later you will get what’s coming to you. So, in this regard the OP is completely justified in acting the way he has.
One thing people didn't mention when talking about the potential side effects of naming and shaming is that other people can have the same name. A witch hunt is even worse when it results in problems for someone completely unrelated. For example their was a comedian who thought their first TV appearance went well, turns out all the abuse and vitriol but instead hurled at someone completely unrelated who just happened to have the same name.
With something like the ITC there needs to be a database of infractions similar to what the DCI does with magic. In magic if a judge is called to resolve an issue then there is either a rewind where they undo actions in the game if possible, a player or both players can be given a warning or there can be a game or match loss. All depending on the severity of the infraction. The infraction is also recorded and if a pattern emerges in an event that player is disqualified from the event. If a pattern emerges over several events they can be barred from events altogether. The important thing in judging is intent which can be difficult to prove without a pattern. IDK if the ITC has any sort of qualification needed to judge an event but they really should have a test if they don't already. People also need to get over the stigma of calling a judge to resolve an issue. If there is an issue call a judge to resolve it, even if you're the one who made the mistake. Happens in magic all the time where players will call a judge on themselves when they notice they've made a mistake. Judges are there to resolve issues in line with the events policy in the fairest way. Calling a judge isn't attacking the other player it's saying that you think a mistake may have been made and you want it resolved fairly.
ah i know the type, players like that are made not born.
I switch off when i face em, slow the game down to a crawl and cause them win by a tiny margin effectively cocking them up from winning the event XD.
other option which i have also done in the past is to literally tell them after the first turn i'm not having fun, and quit there and then.. just to give them that small uncertainly that the maximum pts were not earned tactically (in the traditional playing the game sense)
Caranthir987 wrote: My 2c. I don’t know the OP, and since I wasn’t there I can’t corroborate whether this was as he says or no. I did think the video was well done through, and he kept his cool under what must have felt like a lot of disappointment at the supposed treatment he received.
However..
I have played this individual. Many of the people on the UK scene know this guy, and this type of behaviour is common place. Blatant lies and outrageous sportsmanship is his modus operandi.
Normally, i would agree that outing people on the internet is poor taste, but this guy has been trying to spoil weekends for 40k’ers around Scotland and England for years now. He really has brought it on himself. It must be horrible for those that have got reputations - deserved or no - if they want to enjoy a stress free weekend of tournament gaming meeting new gamers. However, if you are continually lying and bullying opponents to the point of ruining their weekend - which is what this individual does, I have witnessed this - then sooner or later you will get what’s coming to you. So, in this regard the OP is completely justified in acting the way he has.
I disagree. Attacking people on the Internet is attacking people on the Internet. Petty, childish and demonstrating one's own inability to address real-life problems.
What's wrong with people like the OP is the culture of fear they stoke, which causes others to overestimate the size and significance of whatever issue they are bellyaching about. The solutions that are proposed get more and more draconian until they become far worse than the problem they were originally intended to solve. Empathy is not the answer, this person needs to be dealt with in an appropriate manner.
Here is an example: My 4 year old daughter came with me to NOVA. Standing in an elevator with about 10 people, we were joking about why she's there. I said she's the judge and posts information about cheaters online. Everyone froze, conversation stopped, everyone was terrified by the mention of cheating. Not just that, but by the idea someone was there to shitpost. The suggestion this could happen immediately sucked the air out of the room, forget that I was talking about a 4 year old. Absolutely disgusting that the community would allow this kind of paranoia to fester, I'm still kind of shocked by what I saw happening.
TOs need to ban people like the OP from all organized play in a very public way. Sure, he was the victim of some cheating and that sucks. But it's the witchhunt that's scaring people and we need to recognize the harm that does. This is not a chicken in the egg problem, it's just chickens looking to whip up mobs when they feel aggrieved. Chickens should not be the loudest voice in the room, they should have a nice, safe space to peck at the dirt that's out of sight and out of mind and nowhere near a tournament.
Think about it for a minute: who would actually want to play games against someone who thinks it's reasonable to go and crap all over you on YouTube if you screw up on some rule? How is that a community anyone would want to be a part of? Do you think this is something that's going to get better or worse over time?
Think about it for a minute: who would actually want to play games against someone who thinks it's reasonable to go and crap all over you on YouTube if you screw up on some rule? How is that a community anyone would want to be a part of? Do you think this is something that's going to get better or worse over time?
No, I don't think anyone would like to play against such a person, but that's not quite representative of what the OP did. He didn't crap all over that guy because he screwed up some rule, but because he is convinced that his opponent has been blatantly cheating multiple times and systematically so.
If the events transpired as the OP says they did (to be fair, he could be lying for all we know), I feel his reaction is justified. If you check out the video, you'll find that it is measured and in no way inciting - at least I didn't get that impression.
Now to answer your second question: Yes, it will most definitely get better if cheaters get called out within their gaming environment and in an appropriate context. I personally cannot believe that honest players would so much as flinch on the mention of shitposting, because they should have nothing to fear.
Also, unsportsmanlike conduct covers a whole spectrum of things. Rolling and picking up (too) fast, getting caught multiple times trying to alter dice rolls, giving false information to your opponent etc. If you just don't do any of these things, your opponent will have no reason to call you out - easy as that.
Think about it for a minute: who would actually want to play games against someone who thinks it's reasonable to go and crap all over you on YouTube if you screw up on some rule? How is that a community anyone would want to be a part of? Do you think this is something that's going to get better or worse over time?
No, I don't think anyone would like to play against such a person, but that's not quite representative of what the OP did. He didn't crap all over that guy because he screwed up some rule, but because he is convinced that his opponent has been blatantly cheating multiple times and systematically so.
If the events transpired as the OP says they did (to be fair, he could be lying for all we know), I feel his reaction is justified. If you check out the video, you'll find that it is measured and in no way inciting - at least I didn't get that impression.
Now to answer your second question: Yes, it will most definitely get better if cheaters get called out within their gaming environment and in an appropriate context. I personally cannot believe that honest players would so much as flinch on the mention of shitposting, because they have nothing to fear.
Also, unsportsmanlike conduct covers a whole spectrum of things. Rolling and picking up (too) fast, getting caught multiple times trying to alter dice rolls, giving false information to your opponent etc. If you just don't do any of these things, your opponent will have no reason to call you out - easy as that.
Again, I disagree. Justifying the bad actions of one person based on the bad actions of someone else is just magnifying the problem, not a deterrent. What this is is a cultural poison that makes players paranoid of one another over a problem that affects a tiny number of games. It's the 40k version of Bear Patrol and it stinks.
This is not some random idiot complaining, the OP has a YouTube channel with about 3500 subscribers, he posted to Dakka and Reddit, there's no way he could have created a bigger spotlight. Many of the things he's complaining about are borderline at best. There are dozens of other ways he could have dealt with this and the idea he had no choice but to call him out on these social media channels is ridiculous.
I guess if you give people an easy button to turn their complaints into a megaphone, they will use it. But we should take the time to realize how childish and petty it is to do so, and ask ourselves why we would spend time around people like the OP. There's nothing courageous about all this, I'd rather play against a cheater than deal with a roomful of self-righteous videographers waiting to call me out if I screw up.
Again, I disagree. Justifying the bad actions of one person based on the bad actions of someone else is just magnifying the problem, not a deterrent. What this is is a cultural poison that makes players paranoid of one another over a problem that affects a tiny number of games. It's the 40k version of Bear Patrol and it stinks.
This is not some random idiot complaining, the OP has a YouTube channel with about 3500 subscribers, he posted to Dakka and Reddit, there's no way he could have created a bigger spotlight. Many of the things he's complaining about are borderline at best. There are dozens of other ways he could have dealt with this and the idea he had no choice but to call him out on these social media channels is ridiculous.
I guess if you give people an easy button to turn their complaints into a megaphone, they will use it. But we should take the time to realize how childish and petty it is to do so, and ask ourselves why we would spend time around people like the OP. There's nothing courageous about all this, I'd rather play against a cheater than deal with a roomful of self-righteous videographers waiting to call me out if I screw up.
Fair enough, you are of course entitled to your opinion and I do see a problem with witch hunts, too, but in this case I just don't see one happening. This is going to affect the cheater in the right context within the 40k hobby and tournament scene. Removed by BrookM
Again, I disagree. Justifying the bad actions of one person based on the bad actions of someone else is just magnifying the problem, not a deterrent. What this is is a cultural poison that makes players paranoid of one another over a problem that affects a tiny number of games. It's the 40k version of Bear Patrol and it stinks.
This is not some random idiot complaining, the OP has a YouTube channel with about 3500 subscribers, he posted to Dakka and Reddit, there's no way he could have created a bigger spotlight. Many of the things he's complaining about are borderline at best. There are dozens of other ways he could have dealt with this and the idea he had no choice but to call him out on these social media channels is ridiculous.
I guess if you give people an easy button to turn their complaints into a megaphone, they will use it. But we should take the time to realize how childish and petty it is to do so, and ask ourselves why we would spend time around people like the OP. There's nothing courageous about all this, I'd rather play against a cheater than deal with a roomful of self-righteous videographers waiting to call me out if I screw up.
Fair enough, you are of course entitled to your opinion and I do see a problem with witch hunts, too, but in this case I just don't see one happening. This is going to affect the cheater in the right context within the 40k hobby and tournament scene. Removed by BrookM
Fair enough. Maybe it's unfair to call it a witchhunt. I haven't seen anyone being attacked for choosing not to participate, which was a big part of the witchhunt culture.
It would probably be more fair to compare it to professional wrestling. Flamboyant posturing, outrageous accusations / ridiculous stances, faux speeches about how this had to happen, all done to whip up a crowd into a frenzy. The OP is less like King Harald and more like Randy Savage, minus any claims of personal resourcefulness. Still think his actions are very creepy and would not want him hanging around me or people I care about.
And sure, this isn't broadcast television, it's just a YouTube channel with thousands of subscribers and 2 of the biggest forums for discussing the hobby online. Surely this is a pure and honest attempt to correct a serious injustice plaguing the entire community...
I do not necaseraly think it is black and white calling out a cheater on the internett. Some of the people posting in this thread says he is a known cheater. That he frequently play matches and post articles about the Tau. That the mistaces that where made should not happen by anyone of his standar. While it is hard to prove intent, the above are certanly strong points to the fact that he should know better. (To cheat ypu need to knowingly make mistakes, it is not enough just to makr misplays. You need intension behind it.)
The responses like "I made an honest mistake." are common behavior amongst cheaters and one often gets away with it unless it gets tracked over time. His friends posting something like "I know him and he does not cheat." tells us he has loyal or naive friends. Not necaseraly that he does not cheat.
So you have cheater, you want to call attension to it. Either for petty revenge or because you want this kind of behavior to stop. The intent as to why is not important. What options are there for doing something about it? Are there official channels or other places where it can be handeled? Does it get the weigjted reapons it needs? If there are no good exciting options taking dramatic steps as to calling him out on the internett on several cites is a good way to do something about it. There is nothing wrong about demanding justice for a problem in the communaty and demanding better from the players and from the orgenicers. Stop laying this at the feet of the OP.
How is it a witch hunt?
This isn't some random guy who got the rules wrong. This is a guy who has done so deliberately in multiple tournaments. He repeatedly lies.
This defence is always "oh sorry my mistake" but in multiple tournaments after getting called out? At a certain point its case closed.
Sorry but cheats exist. The idea that those who publicise they were cheated against should be banned is insane.
techsoldaten wrote: I disagree. Attacking people on the Internet is attacking people on the Internet. Petty, childish and demonstrating one's own inability to address real-life problems.
What's wrong with people like the OP is the culture of fear they stoke, which causes others to overestimate the size and significance of whatever issue they are bellyaching about. The solutions that are proposed get more and more draconian until they become far worse than the problem they were originally intended to solve. Empathy is not the answer, this person needs to be dealt with in an appropriate manner.
Here is an example: My 4 year old daughter came with me to NOVA. Standing in an elevator with about 10 people, we were joking about why she's there. I said she's the judge and posts information about cheaters online. Everyone froze, conversation stopped, everyone was terrified by the mention of cheating. Not just that, but by the idea someone was there to shitpost. The suggestion this could happen immediately sucked the air out of the room, forget that I was talking about a 4 year old. Absolutely disgusting that the community would allow this kind of paranoia to fester, I'm still kind of shocked by what I saw happening.
TOs need to ban people like the OP from all organized play in a very public way. Sure, he was the victim of some cheating and that sucks. But it's the witchhunt that's scaring people and we need to recognize the harm that does. This is not a chicken in the egg problem, it's just chickens looking to whip up mobs when they feel aggrieved. Chickens should not be the loudest voice in the room, they should have a nice, safe space to peck at the dirt that's out of sight and out of mind and nowhere near a tournament.
Think about it for a minute: who would actually want to play games against someone who thinks it's reasonable to go and crap all over you on YouTube if you screw up on some rule? How is that a community anyone would want to be a part of? Do you think this is something that's going to get better or worse over time?
Do you think this would have blown up the way it did if the accused wasn't already infamous for this kind of behavior? I don't think I've ever seen an accusation in the gaming community turn into a full-on witch hunt just on the basis of hearsay. In this case when someone watches the video or reads the threads, they're seeing a lot of corroboration from others, and that gives it more credence.
Seeing that the guy's official response was 'sorry, I misremembered a bunch of rules' when they have previously self-described as an expert on the new codex, well, I know which side I'm more likely to believe at the moment.
Now, preemptively banning players from tournaments on account of online drama is not something I can get behind, but gagging people from stating their mind about players they have problems with is also wrong IMO. Let people air their grievances and then, if an event's management considers them credible, assign a staffer to shadow the suspected problem player and give them the boot if they pull anything shady. Nobody should have to be afraid that someone making empty accusations will get them banned, but nobody should be told to just shut up and deal with cheating either, because complaining about a problem player might rock the boat.
Oh, and this isn't a 'witch hunt'. It's a public accusation. When angry 40K players show up to the guy's house or get him banned from every event in the UK absent any additional evidence of prior bad behavior, then we can call it a witch hunt. At the moment no harm has been done besides to the guy's reputation, which, as it seems, was not exactly positive before now.
Seems some have issues around asking to see rules, can come over as an accusation of something.
Had this in a former job of mine, chemical plant, a key part of the job was the willingness if you see something slightly odd to ask about it - contractor you haven't seen before, ask them where the work permit is etc - to the point that when being assessed if you were not seen doing this you would have failed.
Q: would it be worth making a point of asking to see a rule or two in most games, break the semi-taboo and remove any undertones of accusation to it - just normalise the idea that rules will be asked about.
We all benefit, you find out where obscure stuff is in your own book and those who shall we say have the tendency to be flexible with rules cannot depend upon what can be intimidation to face down those who want to ask but dare not - e.g. a younger player facing an older one.
Its meant to be a game, a cooperative one, a lot of the rules are not well written and require people to be sensible about them, a willingness to openly ask, and an acceptance that this will happen with a willingness to answer could be extremely useful - it also normalises the requirement to actually have the rules to hand.
used to Play Star Fleet Battles, had a semi-rule for tournaments that if you were questioned on an action it was up to you to show where it was legal - in a rulebook you could murder people with (though very well indexed and cross referenced in a way only a lawyer would love) - guideline was if you can;t find it in a few minutes, for that game its not there - incentive to know your rules, and the rules of the game better than your opponent
Oh, and this isn't a 'witch hunt'. It's a public accusation. When angry 40K players show up to the guy's house or get him banned from every event in the UK absent any additional evidence of prior bad behavior, then we can call it a witch hunt. At the moment no harm has been done besides to the guy's reputation, which, as it seems, was not exactly positive before now.
A public accusation made by someone using a fake name.
Oh, and this isn't a 'witch hunt'. It's a public accusation. When angry 40K players show up to the guy's house or get him banned from every event in the UK absent any additional evidence of prior bad behavior, then we can call it a witch hunt. At the moment no harm has been done besides to the guy's reputation, which, as it seems, was not exactly positive before now.
A public accusation made by someone using a fake name.
this is why any accusation that does not also include evidence should be treated as worth the paper it isn't written on
I am not meaning this is as an insult or something wrong, but man this is so british it is crazy. How is someone suppose to prove anything after the game happens and there is no video material of it. All people that saw the game could be called biased and supporting one or the other side, so what they say it null and void.
You guys are often so nice, and try to be so not offending to anyone that, when someone really bad pops up, and I am not saying this about the situation here, you get screwed over and over again. Again am not saying that the supposed "cheater" here is the son of satan, but when we have problem like that it gets plastered everywhere, and not just polish forums.
TOs need to ban people like the OP from all organized play in a very public way.
Or maybe TOs should ban people whose response to cheating is to shoot the messenger. This obsession with hurt feelings and public image at the cost of truth is bizarre. You're not making the hobby better by sweeping problems under the rug, you're making it worse for everyone except cheaters, who will be all that more secure if they know that anyone ousting them will be the subject of a witch hunt. But of course there are people for whom this is the desired outcome... hmm.
TOs need to ban people like the OP from all organized play in a very public way.
TOs should ban people whose response to cheating is to shoot the messenger. This obsession with hurt feelings and public image at the cost of truth is bizarre.
welcome to the 21st century, where "feelz" trump "facts".
What would be useful, I sort of assume it exists "somewhere" is a slightly more private forum used by TO and moderators to discuss things.
Have been to a few events (only one 40k), only had one blatant bit of cheating (guess which event?) with an illegal list, forgeworld model with no book and stats that appeared post event to have been totally made up, apparently this was "ok as he didn't win".
hadn't been playing long enough to spot what was going on (only went to help make up numbers).
At other events I've seen a whole load of rulespack stuff being ignored - typically around "models must be painted", various bits on maximum unit sizes etc, all of which get shrugged off with "well hes come a long way" or "well hes a younger player".
To be honest some events are their own worst enemies for not actually enforcing rules they themselves have created.
Doesn't seem to crop up in other games anything like as much, either because people are swinging it a bit less or people just know the rules well enough its not worth anyone trying, no idea what it is about 40k that attracts such behaviour really, or why its considered acceptable
Tyel wrote: How is it a witch hunt?
This isn't some random guy who got the rules wrong. This is a guy who has done so deliberately in multiple tournaments. He repeatedly lies.
This defence is always "oh sorry my mistake" but in multiple tournaments after getting called out? At a certain point its case closed.
Sorry but cheats exist. The idea that those who publicise they were cheated against should be banned is insane.
Do you know this person and personally witnessed suspicious behavior from the person in question or are you just going along with what people say happened and declaring the person to be a cheater?
I don't know either party involved and not going to judge either on what was said to have happened. The OP should have brought this to the TO and let them handle it. Unfortunately this won't have immediately gratifying effects as they will now have to watch the suspected cheater (depending on when the TO was informed, this might mean putting them on a watch list for the next event) or reviewing the footage if there are cameras. I think the Tournament would be well within their right for banning the OP for engaging in a public smear campaign rather than allowing the TO to investigate and make a decision. Actual justice requires proof rather than popular opinion.
I've seen people swear up and down that the rules said one thing and were shocked when they went back and read it. Sometimes it was because the person misread something, the rules weren't as clear as they thought, or they were thinking about another edition. When I first played Tau in 3rd, for instance, I somehow thought Pulse carbines were rapid fire instead of assault 1. I have no idea how this happened other then my brain trying to edit reality so that they actually looked kind of useful. I was generally shocked when it was finally pointed out to me. I once got into an argument with a fellow CSM player who thought demonic strength and a powerfist gave you Str 10 because they hadn't read the FAQ that stated it was Str 9. I recently made a comment stating that Fusion guns had a range of 12", got corrected, and went back and found that the last time I played Tau they had a 12" range but went up in the next codex. Everyone, no matter how good they are, screws things up. Could the subject of the thread been cheating? Yes. Could the guy screwed up and the OP is the dishonest one, exaggerating and lying about what happened? Yes.
Honestly, are far better ways to cheat and most of them aren't obvious. Quickly rolling and lying about the number of successes on the far side of the table might get your opponent suspicious but it would be hard to prove that you're actually cheating. Loaded dice can work as long as you don't put in enough so it's obvious. Then you have more obvious questionable that is generally accepted, like conceding games against an opponent who was beating you so they can't get max points so you're buddy gets a higher score. I had a friend who got second place in a tournament because he played two games against friends of the guy who won first. Both conceded before they got tabled, ensuring their buddy edged my friend out in points. If the target of this thread can't come up with better ways to cheat than the ones listed, this thread is pointless. If true, the guy is already being shunned for his behavior and won't get any games in. Cheats exist, but so do liars and poor losers. Actually pulling off cheating and not getting caught at it is a lot harder and will generally correct itself without getting people on the other side of the world involved.
leopard wrote: Seems some have issues around asking to see rules, can come over as an accusation of something.
What, you mean the codex he asked to see but was currently being "borrowed" by a "friend" of the guy in a timed situation? Oh how fething convenient...
Tyel wrote: Sorry but cheats exist. The idea that those who publicise they were cheated against should be banned is insane.
Yeah, I accept cheaters exist. I just think cheaters are better people than the jerks who poop-post on the Internet.
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catbarf wrote: Do you think this would have blown up the way it did if the accused wasn't already infamous for this kind of behavior?
I don't care about the reputation of the person being accused. People who poop-post about cheaters in 40k are doing more harm then good. I would be more likely to boycott a tournament for allowing a shitposter to play than a known cheater.
It's like revenge porn. Sure, someone caught you with your clothes off. It's not their job to share it with the rest of the world, and make the rest of us look bad in the process.
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lord_blackfang wrote: Or maybe TOs should ban people whose response to cheating is to shoot the messenger.
That's an incredibly mature response.
You and the thousands of people like you, eager to find someone to pillory, are the reason poop-posters are worse than the worst cheaters. You're impressionable and ready to mob up at a moment's notice.
How about you give it a break and do something constructive?
-=Edit=- Lorek cleaned up the swears. Forum rules and all that.
leopard wrote: Seems some have issues around asking to see rules, can come over as an accusation of something.
What, you mean the codex he asked to see but was currently being "borrowed" by a "friend" of the guy in a timed situation? Oh how fething convenient...
OP asked to see his codex multiple times.
I saw that, my point was more general about the fact that everyone should be open to ask, open to being asked and this should be the normal state of affairs, not something that has issues around it
Tyel wrote: Sorry but cheats exist. The idea that those who publicise they were cheated against should be banned is insane.
Yeah, I accept cheaters exist. I just think cheaters are better people than the jerks who shitpost on the Internet.
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catbarf wrote: Do you think this would have blown up the way it did if the accused wasn't already infamous for this kind of behavior?
I don't care about the reputation of the person being accused. People who shitpost about cheaters in 40k are doing more harm then good. I would be more likely to boycott a tournament for allowing a shitposter to play than a known cheater.
It's like revenge porn. Sure, someone caught you with your clothes off. It's not their job to share it with the rest of the world, and make the rest of us look bad in the process.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: Or maybe TOs should ban people whose response to cheating is to shoot the messenger.
That's an incredibly mature response.
You and the thousands of people like you, eager to find someone to pillory, are the reason shitposters are worse than the worst cheaters. You're impressionable and ready to mob up at a moment's notice.
How about you give it a break and do something constructive?
why can't they both be bad? if this guy cheated? yeah a problem, I hear he's been banned from tournies, at the same time I agree the OP is attemtping to turn this into an internet crusade agaisnt the guy, which proably isn't proper eaither, I mean... foir what it's worth if I was a Dakka mod I'd have locked this thread. That said these cheating threads always have the same problem, so and so gets caught cheating, tons of people come forward to say he's a known cheater and they're glad he was finally caught, others come forward and defend the guy, claiming he's eaither a friend and never cheats, claiming the evidance isn't eneugh for a conviction (maybe not but most of the time it'd be eneugh for a verdict against the guy in a civil court) or just saying "whatever it's all GW's fault cause the game sucks" there are people who would leap to a known cheaters defence even with video to prove it, and THOSE people are the most toxic ones to the community, the people who, for whatever reason, send the signal cheating is ok.
A... middle ground, you say? On the internet? Tish, pshaw. How does one craft an edgy soundbite from that? Gotta rush to add your piece, and polarisation gets attention!
Cheating is never okay. And it should be dealt with appropriately by the TO at the event. Calling the Guy out on the internet anonymously is revenge, not justice.
JohnnyHell wrote: A... middle ground, you say? On the internet? Tish, pshaw. How does one craft an edgy soundbite from that? Gotta rush to add your piece, and polarisation gets attention!
... ohh right excuse me... THEY'RE BOTH BAD! KILL THEM BOTH! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! RAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!1111
To the OP.
I saw your video earlier today before I knew this thread was here.
I get it you needed to vent. I've been there a time or two.
I am wondering, knowing what you know now what would you do different to take the power away from the cheater?
How do you feel about how you have reacted to this event?
I don't know about where you play, local to me the TO changer match ups if the two players play against each other a lot. You might talk to your TO about a similar idea to not play people who you just don't get along with or have cheated you in the past. They might be willing. If that particular player is in fact a nasty cheater and enough people tell the TO's that they don't want to play, the cheater may have to find other places to play.
The big thing I would say is find a constructive solution and enhance your calm. It takes a clear mind to send little soldiers off to die over pointless objectives for the Emperor after all.
Crimson Devil wrote: Cheating is never okay. And it should be dealt with appropriately by the TO at the event. Calling the Guy out on the internet anonymously is revenge, not justice.
What's alarming about this video is the author is attacking other players to build a following. He's providing a model anyone can follow to build their own channel. This is very different from some anonymous poster going off on something he didn't like about the London GT, he's demonstrating how to amplify his complaints in a very loud manner that speaks to the culture of the hobby.
No thanks, I'm not down with a hobby driven by talking trash about other players. Just cancelled my subscription to his channel. Encouraging everyone to do the same, we need better batreps not callout streams.
I will address each complain you made against me, but first off I'll point out that there is a big big difference between cheating and making rules mistakes. Cheating is a deliberate action made with intent. If you believe this is something I did then I am frankly offended and can categorically state I do not cheat!!
That's the issue with accusing someone of cheating, they will deny at the time unless it was captured on a stream but even then they would deny.
You stated I checked my codex. Actually Adam had my codex next to you, and at many points YOU looked up the rules, not me. Since you had constant access to the codex, please don't blame me for reading anything wrong.
If you made the error, it is not up to the opponent to try and correct.
1. You have made reference to orbital bombard. It does indeed hit on 4+. And i do not remember trying to ever hit a character with. Why would I? They are anti tank one use.
2. The ap-2 burst cannons. This was my mistake. Not cheating!! I have spent the whole of 8th using riptides, this is my first time ever using tigersharks.
But your claim it cost you the game is simply false. When a game is close, its close, when you have 1 model left and your opponent has most of his army left.... Its not close. So it didn't cost you the match.
After so many mistakes you should just conceed. You have just ruined the game for someone and have gained an advantage how big or small.
3. The ap value of the seekers. This was done and pointed out in front of the T.O and frankly its rediculous you are mentioning a issue that was resolved that caused no problems, and I even let loose any missiles I had left. You then said in front of the T.O that you were.... Quote "Very happy with that"
You had a big advantage here. Of course you're happy to let it go. As an opponent you should have offered to reroll.
4. Your mention of - 1 to hit I played right. Remember I had 2 commanders and they were always near your unit I made - 1. I'm not sure where your confusion with my play in this is, but I did play it correct. The only thing I can think is you may have interpreted my wording as a - 1 to hit for the unit. This is a misunderstanding.
And if he fired multiple times with a penalty you should have corrected him. It is up to you to ensure he is applying the modifiers correctly.
5. Your complaint about my hidden fire warrior. This one makes no sense. You had a warlord near an objective. You asked if he was on the objective. I said yes. Because yes your warlord was in 3" of it. But my firewarrior controlled it. Thats tactical play and its not my job to tell you where my stuff is.
Intentionally misleading you opponent is unsportsmanlike conduct. You knew his intent and you let him make a move that was pointless.
6. Wounds on longstrike. I can't comment on this because I don't remember saying that nor you doing 13 wounds right off. If I comment on this I would be lieing, so I can only apologise if this is the case.
Another game changing mistake.
Also I have all my books for all my units with me. Why wouldn't I.
If you need to look up rules more than once you need to have the rules handy. Perhaps I can suggest you show your opponent in the future the rules and protect yourself.
Now while I understand loosing a game is never fun, I am a little upset given I really enjoyed playing you and our game. I have zero interest in. Cheating as it means any win I have is worthless. It degrades me as a player, and de values any standing I have
There have been a number of people come out against you, I dont think you have much standing in the community. Even your supposed friend knows of your poor standing. That says a lot.
So I once again state I did not cheat. I may have made a rule mistake, but these things do happen. And I apologise once again."
You made so many mistakes its a little bit suspicious don't you think? Once again at competitive level, you need to own up to your mistakes that are affecting other peoples enjoyment.
No thanks, I'm not down with a hobby driven by talking trash about other players. Just cancelled my subscription to his channel. Encouraging everyone to do the same, we need better batreps not callout streams.
I think you would be in the minority, this is hardly MG's modus operandi. MG is using his platform to express a distaste for cheating in a hobby most of us do for fun. All of his other content is positive to the game and tournaments he attends.
Also he barely even does batreps, its not his specialty so you are right do unsub. Maybe try Tabletop Tactics, those are some good batreps.
I just realised something... how pathetic are our lives that a child game is getting us so heated and angry at each other... I think i'm going to go afk for a while... I need to consider my life.
lolman1c wrote: I just realised something... how pathetic are our lives that a child game is getting us so heated and angry at each other... I think i'm going to go afk for a while... I need to consider my life.
1) its not a childs game, its a hobby forsome, important to life for others (Example it helped my depression a lot)
2) people put a lot of time and money into it, its more than a hobby for some
3) its poor sportsmanship, all competitive environments dont like cheaters, its highly disrespectful
The game might not be to important to you, and that is ok, but for some it is important, and someone soiling that, especially if that someone had to spend money and travel to an event just to be disrespected for hours can really make you feel bad.
lolman1c wrote: I just realised something... how pathetic are our lives that a child game is getting us so heated and angry at each other... I think i'm going to go afk for a while... I need to consider my life.
Its not trash talking players, its trash talking cheats.
Imagine you played golf with someone who was cheating repeatedly. Then over a beer a friend says they had the same experience. How are they worse for the hobby than the cheat?
On rules mistakes its about experience. Play one game of 40k every 6 months? Fine. Rules constantly change, new faqs, its not familiar.
When however you are active in the tournament scene, playing multiple games a month and by some weird fluke find all your mistakes are in your favour its very suspect that its by accident.
Maybe my perspective on this is skewed because 15 years or so ago (3rd edition) I was that guy. Twisting/forgetting rules, arguing distances to the millimetre, oh sorry my Codex is in another castle. Winning 40k was "my thing" - why should pesky things like sportsmanship get in the way?
Fortunately however I grew up and realised this behavior was toxic for the hobby and my enjoyment of it. Some people however won't change unless forced.
I think we need to get around to the understanding that publicly naming people (who aren't in the public eye) for negative things is not good form. Naming them in conversation with TOs, over emails to the organisers and to the ITC is logical and reasonable. However, naming can lead to a number of unforeseen consequences which far exceed the nature of the allegations. In person discussions are fine and natural, but there is a difference when something is published online.
There is no definitive proof of these allegations, but that isn't actually a problem. There almost never will be in these situations. 40k is a social game and relies on a social contract to function. If, for example, the -1 was miscommunicated, then there is a responsibility to do it better. The most damning thing for me is the hidden fire warrior on the objective. The opposing player SHOULD have mentioned him, to do otherwise is deliberate gamesmanship (and they do not deny that they did it). It isn't fair play and is abusing the social contract for game advantage. That is what really sours me on that particular player .
Also, people saying innocent until proven guilty - this isn't a court of law.
lolman1c wrote: I just realised something... how pathetic are our lives that a child game is getting us so heated and angry at each other... I think i'm going to go afk for a while... I need to consider my life.
Haha, I was joking (I play 40k... i'm not a child, please read my previous comments here and chill). I'm not actually going to spend time considering my life (I'm past 1k posts on dakkadakka, I'm way beyond the point of no return). But no seriously, it is just a game (a game for children or not doesn't mater). The fact anyone (not saying this guy or any other guy is a cheater) has to cheat at a game just to feel like they have achieved something in life is really sad. When you think about all the other stuff you can achieve in life cheating at a game about space nazis isn't at the top of what you might be wanted to be known for in life.
My friend is helping to research rare and endangered aquatic species and she still has fun not cheating at 40k.
I moved to Vietnam in order to teach English in a developing country, I still have fun not cheating at 40k.
Many people here are people who served in the armed forces, they still have fun not cheating at 40k.
By no means am i saying anyone's achievements are better than others but we all did achieve something without having to cheat at a game. Hell, to be known as the best X player in a game is an achievement in my mind but to be known as the best cheater just doesn't have the same ring. I feel like I earned my respect as a tutor because I achieved it, not because I said my imaginary plasma gun on a fish in a Japanese robot suit was -4ap. Sooner or kater the truth always comes out so the best thing you can do is not cheat and just take the loss until you're good enough to win.
People like this NEED to be named and shamed. The bad guys win when you prevent making it clear who these donkey-caves are. This is why cheating is so prevalent; every time you have a situation like this, including all the recent problems at major events, nobody mentions the person in question so they get away relatively unscathed or, worse, go on a tangent saying how this was a lapse in judgment and they're really a nice guy etc. etc. No, they aren't. Stop coddling and hiding the identities of these bastards, it's the only way to actually punish them for it. Otherwise nothing will ever be done.
Wayniac wrote: People like this NEED to be named and shamed. The bad guys win when you prevent making it clear who these donkey-caves are. This is why cheating is so prevalent; every time you have a situation like this, including all the recent problems at major events, nobody mentions the person in question so they get away relatively unscathed or, worse, go on a tangent saying how this was a lapse in judgment and they're really a nice guy etc. etc. No, they aren't. Stop coddling and hiding the identities of these bastards, it's the only way to actually punish them for it. Otherwise nothing will ever be done.
Except multiple posts have already pointed out that public naming and shaming rarely works well nor as intended.
1) It's super easy to miss interpret, miss remember and make mistakes when reporting a possible cheater. Even in this very own example there are counterpoints being made. As a result without a live recording of the match its one person against another in a slinging match of words when its well after the event. That's a very big and good reason NOT to publicly name and shame because it creates a situation where anyone can abuse it. Public naming and shaming shouldn't be done by the players in a match; its too powerful a tool to be abused; to open for abuse and too easy to make big mistakes that have a crippling lasting effect.
2) Public stupidity and witch hunts. This can backfire in not just shaming someone but generating actual hate and rage and aggression against a person. Someone should not be getting hate mail, death threats; have their boss at work called up; potentially lose their job and income all because of allegations of cheating in a toy soldiers game. Even if its proven 100% its still punishment WAY beyond the crime and is not conductive to a healthy community atmosphere.
3) It's dickish and encourages a toxic atmosphere. This is another big thing. If people fear the potential of someone just publicly naming and shaming because of one wrong stat; or two wrong stats or even baseless (knowing that neither defence of accusation can prove the case, but that "no smoke without fire" mentality will kick in to bias in favour of the accuser). That's a competitive atmosphere many won't engage with; and unlike League of Legends its not free to play nor pick up and drop off; Wargaming is hours of work and travel and cost- people won't engage with that if the atmosphere is nasty.
4) Mistakes - as said earlier not everyone has a unique name and even within the hobby there are many repeat names (heck there's at least one game developer who has a shared name with a miniature wargame/boxed game developer). So its very easy for someone else to take all the hate and punishment in public when they might not even have been the person who is the accused.
Now I DO agree that any issues that arise in games should be reported and logged. Tournament Organisers should be recording each interaction (positive and negative) where they have to step in; along with the details of who was involved and what happened. This data should be collated and stored and shared with other Tournament Organisers with the view that it presents a comprehensive document that allows people to revive - in a calm and impartial manner- the behaviour of members. Those with repeat warnings can be flagged up - identifying them as either cheaters or people with issues in play (eg they might be very new and making lots of mistakes). This might mean a TO with one of those people attending might put someone to watch that players games more closely; it means they might approach someone of low skill and suggest that they play in the freegames rather than the tournament and offer the mto return later when they've a better grasp - or even offer to help teach them outside of the event; it might mean some people get bans from one event or many because of repeated issues.
THAT is a fair system that tallies the results; monitors them and deals with them in an appropriate manner that fits the accusation. Remembering that many people make mistakes in this game. Got an army with nearly all 3+ to hit and its dead easy to forget the 1 unit that is 4+ to hit etc... Not every mistake is a cheat - in fact many times its only repeat observation and collating of info and proof that can find a cheater unelss they are doing very bold cheating methods (eg loaded dice)
Tyel wrote: Its not trash talking players, its trash talking cheats.
Imagine you played golf with someone who was cheating repeatedly. Then over a beer a friend says they had the same experience. How are they worse for the hobby than the cheat?
On rules mistakes its about experience. Play one game of 40k every 6 months? Fine. Rules constantly change, new faqs, its not familiar.
When however you are active in the tournament scene, playing multiple games a month and by some weird fluke find all your mistakes are in your favour its very suspect that its by accident.
Maybe my perspective on this is skewed because 15 years or so ago (3rd edition) I was that guy. Twisting/forgetting rules, arguing distances to the millimetre, oh sorry my Codex is in another castle. Winning 40k was "my thing" - why should pesky things like sportsmanship get in the way?
Fortunately however I grew up and realised this behavior was toxic for the hobby and my enjoyment of it. Some people however won't change unless forced.
I don't need to think about golf, it's a different game. Apples and oranges.
Some of the most enjoyable games of 40k I've ever played were against opponents who were actively cheating. Gregariously, with aplomb and panache. Those games were beautiful and I still laugh about them.
The problem with cheating won't be solved until GW implements a system that awards victory points for getting away with spectacular violations of the rules. It's not hard to recognize the creativity that goes into a good cheat, it shares something with the imagination fueling the desire to build a good army. You love it, you want it to be the best it can be, and sometimes the rules just don't reflect what you think it should do. So, consciously or unconsciously, this internal picture of how your army should operate affects how you play the game.
I don't see this as something to be discouraged so much as understood.
Hard-liners stomping down on infractions make me very uncomfortable because they are so far removed from the majority of 40k hobbyists. Most of my enjoyment of the game comes from meeting other players and my experience has been that there are many who are never going to get the rules right. More than the number who will. They're not necessarily malicious or stupid, operating in a closed system that requires players to precisely execute on a set of rules is simply not their strength. I'd argue this describes the majority of people who are into the 40k hobby and it's part of the reason we see so many more painters than players. No one wants to participate in a system where they feel they can't succeed and these highly-visible examples of public condemnation over relatively minor problems only makes the game seem less inviting. Similar to the way one might have reservations about signing up for Scientology over the white shirts...
I say 'minor problems' because - in all these threads about the epidemic problem with cheating - I have yet to see an example where someone's cheat actually affects the outcome of the game. I've read the arguments that any breach is too much, and it's fine some people feel that way. But I certainly would avoid these people, not because I'm looking to cheat, but because they sound ready to persecute anyone over the slightest perceived infraction. The response is immoderate. These people's obsession often extends beyond other players to tournament organizers and actual winners, to the point where I wonder why anyone would want to go through the hassle of trying to accommodate them. All the talk about trying to achieve some good, to fix a problem - it's hollow because the response is so extreme. No one deserves having an internet hate mob thrown in their face for not playing with little army men to your satisfaction. No one who sees this happening is going to say, yeah, I need to get in on that.
The OP is shining a pretty big spotlight on his opponent. His vigilante efforts to introduce a human flesh search engine into the 40k community are unimpressive other than for the masterful execution of the principle of going overboard. He's given us an example we can all learn from in where not to go. Those saying he's done right are giving us great examples in how reality warps trying to justify bad actions.
Tell yourself whatever you want, there's nothing good about this. Other people have flaws, deal with them in a way that makes you look like an adult and keeps the community from look like a bunch of persecutorial rules zealots.
It's definitely an interesting moral dilemma. If you know he is a cheater then this is a good was to punish him but also a way that could hurt him.
I still stand that naming always has a chance of extreme negative effects that I wouldn't even chance on someone. But then again, I do dislike cheating a lot. I once chated... it was about 10 years ago in a game called gmod. I downloaded a auto aim and just sat on a deathmatch server in the corner. I uninstalled it that day... was so incredibly boring. At first i loved the attention of being first but over time I never felt like I earned the top spot. Cheating is an interesting addiction and can easily be obtained. You cheat once and it feels good but over time it fades so you cheat more. Eventually you lie to yourself so much that you don't even realise you cheat anymore.
Good game to play is a game where you're expected to cheat and encouraged to do so. Games where you have to lie to your opponents. Then you genuinely earn the top spot. And a good way to spend an afternoon.
He entered a publically viewable tournament and used no code name or player tag. You put yourself in the public eye, it's on you if you behave as an ass. There's literally no other name to refer to him by than his real one, and we WILL address cheaters when it happens. Asking people not to will never happen, so pointless debate, and from a moral perspective it's thin, we cab discuss this stuff. Thanks.
CassianSol wrote: The most damning thing for me is the hidden fire warrior on the objective. The opposing player SHOULD have mentioned him, to do otherwise is deliberate gamesmanship (and they do not deny that they did it). It isn't fair play and is abusing the social contract for game advantage. That is what really sours me on that particular player .
The thing with this is it really depends on what was asked. The important thing in a case like this is to not lie to your opponent. If they ask if they control the objective tell them. If they ask if their character is in range of the objective you don't have to add anything other than yes or no. If they ask where your units are, point out each unit. If they forget a unit is somewhere you don't have to remind them. Saying otherwise is like saying it's poor sportmanship to point out in a tournament that they could easily kill your dark reapers instead of your guardians when they're about to shoot your guardians instead.
Playing tactically isn't poor sportsmanship, lying to your opponent to get an advantage is. You don't talk your opponent through all your plays as you make them or tell them what you're planning to do on your next turn when they're about to start their turn.
CassianSol wrote: The most damning thing for me is the hidden fire warrior on the objective. The opposing player SHOULD have mentioned him, to do otherwise is deliberate gamesmanship (and they do not deny that they did it). It isn't fair play and is abusing the social contract for game advantage. That is what really sours me on that particular player .
The thing with this is it really depends on what was asked. The important thing in a case like this is to not lie to your opponent. If they ask if they control the objective tell them. If they ask if their character is in range of the objective you don't have to add anything other than yes or no. If they ask where your units are, point out each unit. If they forget a unit is somewhere you don't have to remind them. Saying otherwise is like saying it's poor sportmanship to point out in a tournament that they could easily kill your dark reapers instead of your guardians when they're about to shoot your guardians instead.
Playing tactically isn't poor sportsmanship, lying to your opponent to get an advantage is. You don't talk your opponent through all your plays as you make them or tell them what you're planning to do on your next turn when they're about to start their turn.
I call BS on that.
When the guy asks about the distance to the objective, its's obvious what his intentions are, and his opponent should indicate the presence of the Tau Fire Warrior contesting it "you are within 3", but don't forget my guy here is still controlling it". A player shouldn't have to wander around the whole table looking for hidden troops.
CassianSol wrote: The most damning thing for me is the hidden fire warrior on the objective. The opposing player SHOULD have mentioned him, to do otherwise is deliberate gamesmanship (and they do not deny that they did it). It isn't fair play and is abusing the social contract for game advantage. That is what really sours me on that particular player .
The thing with this is it really depends on what was asked. The important thing in a case like this is to not lie to your opponent. If they ask if they control the objective tell them. If they ask if their character is in range of the objective you don't have to add anything other than yes or no. If they ask where your units are, point out each unit. If they forget a unit is somewhere you don't have to remind them. Saying otherwise is like saying it's poor sportmanship to point out in a tournament that they could easily kill your dark reapers instead of your guardians when they're about to shoot your guardians instead.
Playing tactically isn't poor sportsmanship, lying to your opponent to get an advantage is. You don't talk your opponent through all your plays as you make them or tell them what you're planning to do on your next turn when they're about to start their turn.
In MtG tournaments, lying about public information will get you game losses, match losses or even removed from the tournament (depending on how often you do it at what level of event). Things that anyone could see, like that hiding Tau warrior, number of wounds left on a model or the stats of a weapon.
MtG also punishes you for not telling your opponent when he is playing the rules wrong, especially if it's in your favor. You would have to tell your opponent if he is putting a -1 modifier on his shooting when he shouldn't. It's called failure to maintain the game state.
WH40kTOs (including GW) could learn a lot from the DCI. But history has shown that humanity usually doesn't learn from mistakes of the past
This thread, despite baconcat's attempt to derail it has been pretty interesting, but I haven't seen the TO's response discussed much.
Why is it that the TO just decided "its too late sorry" after OP pointed out that the cheater killed his tanks with -4ap weapons that were really -2ap?
It shouldn't really matter if it was an 'honest mistake' that he claimed they were -4ap. If it's 'too late' and you can't go back, then the person who made the mistake is disqualified and looses the match.
A more lenient approach would just be to nullify the damage completely and continue the game. That could be disruptive a turn after the fact, but frankly - too bad.
I know people don't want to bash TOs for their calls - and I'm not trying to do so. Players should be thankful to TOs who spend their time running things, but clear rules with consequences would go a long way in these situations.
SirWeeble wrote: This thread, despite baconcat's attempt to derail it has been pretty interesting, but I haven't seen the TO's response discussed much.
Why is it that the TO just decided "its too late sorry" after OP pointed out that the cheater killed his tanks with -4ap weapons that were really -2ap?
It shouldn't really matter if it was an 'honest mistake' that he claimed they were -4ap. If it's 'too late' and you can't go back, then the person who made the mistake is disqualified and looses the match.
A more lenient approach would just be to nullify the damage completely and continue the game. That could be disruptive a turn after the fact, but frankly - too bad.
I know people don't want to bash TOs for their calls - and I'm not trying to do so. Players should be thankful to TOs who spend their time running things, but clear rules with consequences would go a long way in these situations.
Hard to know, but honestly in these situations making a call is better than prevaricating. The call the TO made isn't necessarily the right one, but it wasn't calling something incorrectly, it just swept away the immediate concern and got the game to continue to play. I can see the value in that.
CassianSol wrote: The most damning thing for me is the hidden fire warrior on the objective. The opposing player SHOULD have mentioned him, to do otherwise is deliberate gamesmanship (and they do not deny that they did it). It isn't fair play and is abusing the social contract for game advantage. That is what really sours me on that particular player .
The thing with this is it really depends on what was asked. The important thing in a case like this is to not lie to your opponent. If they ask if they control the objective tell them. If they ask if their character is in range of the objective you don't have to add anything other than yes or no. If they ask where your units are, point out each unit. If they forget a unit is somewhere you don't have to remind them. Saying otherwise is like saying it's poor sportmanship to point out in a tournament that they could easily kill your dark reapers instead of your guardians when they're about to shoot your guardians instead.
Playing tactically isn't poor sportsmanship, lying to your opponent to get an advantage is. You don't talk your opponent through all your plays as you make them or tell them what you're planning to do on your next turn when they're about to start their turn.
I call BS on that.
When the guy asks about the distance to the objective, its's obvious what his intentions are, and his opponent should indicate the presence of the Tau Fire Warrior contesting it "you are within 3", but don't forget my guy here is still controlling it". A player shouldn't have to wander around the whole table looking for hidden troops.
I heard someone was told by a judge (after calling out a mistake when watching two players) that their role wasn't to solve rule errors it was just to keep the game moving by picking a side when an argument starts.
There's certainly an argument that that's what the judge's role is - to keep the game moving swiftly and with optimal fairness, not necessarily to ensure the rules are followed to the letter.
We think 'Judge' means 'ensures the rules were followed'. Even legally (in the US), that's not what they do. The US courts system is an adversarial system: for something to come before a judge, there must be a specific argument between two people - the plaintiff and the defender, or the state and the accused.
The idea is that settling disputes or clarifying the law where there is no complaint is effectively wasted effort. Further, an individual getting a declaration from the court absent another individual trying to prevent it / arguing against it makes it very hard to ensure both sides of the issue are heard.
It's interesting stuff. Look at the Supreme Court opinions when DOMA got struck down (the precursor to homosexual marriage becoming legal in all 50). The dissenting opinion (those who didn't want to strike it down) didn't argue that DOMA was legal. They argued that there was no disagreement: a lower court had ruled that DOMA was illegal, and nobody (nobody who has a legal right to care) was disputing that. In essence, the justices that disagreed with overturning DOMA were saying "Nobody's saying it's legal in the first place - so we shouldn't even care". Now, that saga gets a lot more complicated as you dig into it, but I find that that's a cool bit of trivia.
Back on topic - the US Courts system has a similar setup. They don't exist to judge in a vacuum: they can only render judgement to settle a disagreement. Sounds like the judge you heard has a similar mandate - they're there to resolve disputes, not apply the rules.
2) the accuser is making his claims up because he lost to hurt the guy who beat him.
If your favorite sports team looses and a player or coach goes on a rant to the media that they only lost because the other team's star player dopes, what do you think would happen to the guy ranting? They'd probably get hit with fines and suspensions because it is poor behavior that reflects badly on the sport. The accusations also might not have any grounding in reality. If the player had suspicions, they should have gone to the people who run their organization.
Cheaters should be punished, yes. Accused cheaters shouldn't have to deal with Internet lynch mobs based on the words of their supposed victim. What happens if it turns out the accuser is making things up? I realize that waiting for TOs to investigate claims of cheating lacks the instant gratification of righteous indignation but unless there is real evidence than you could just be getting played by the OP.
Maybe the accused's reply indicated some sketchy behavior but using one's internet presence rather than going to the TO to get vindication is super sketchy in my book.
Skaorn wrote: So can anyone provide actual proof that:
1) the player in question was actually cheating.
Watch. The. Video. In. The. OP.
OP was motivated to make this video via corroborated evidence from several other gamers who have played the guy. No smoke without fire- Are you saying every single person who has had a negative play experience with this guy is making it up? Occam's razor would say no.
CassianSol wrote: The most damning thing for me is the hidden fire warrior on the objective. The opposing player SHOULD have mentioned him, to do otherwise is deliberate gamesmanship (and they do not deny that they did it). It isn't fair play and is abusing the social contract for game advantage. That is what really sours me on that particular player .
The thing with this is it really depends on what was asked. The important thing in a case like this is to not lie to your opponent. If they ask if they control the objective tell them. If they ask if their character is in range of the objective you don't have to add anything other than yes or no. If they ask where your units are, point out each unit. If they forget a unit is somewhere you don't have to remind them. Saying otherwise is like saying it's poor sportmanship to point out in a tournament that they could easily kill your dark reapers instead of your guardians when they're about to shoot your guardians instead.
Playing tactically isn't poor sportsmanship, lying to your opponent to get an advantage is. You don't talk your opponent through all your plays as you make them or tell them what you're planning to do on your next turn when they're about to start their turn.
I call BS on that.
When the guy asks about the distance to the objective, its's obvious what his intentions are, and his opponent should indicate the presence of the Tau Fire Warrior contesting it "you are within 3", but don't forget my guy here is still controlling it". A player shouldn't have to wander around the whole table looking for hidden troops.
I would personally have answered the question pointing out my model is controlling the objective. Though, if somebody answered "is my model controlling this objective" with "your model is withing 3 inches" then I would be seeing why that was the answer and not that I controlled it. of all the stuff listed this is one of the few I don't really have an issue with. I take much more offense with claiming ap-2 weapons are ap-4 and such. I don't play much in tournaments anymore, probably mostly because I can't help but giving my opponents advice before they make bad moves or chose bad targets reminding them of my units profiles.
Personally I don't see the issue with the objective complaint. If my guy's hidden, then yes you should think you have the objective. Just like if your guy is hidden, I should be led to believe I control the objective.
The guy wouldn't be hidden if everyone knew where he was!
It would be my fault for not remembering "Oh wait, he had a guy over here somewhere" That's part of getting good at a strategy game is paying attention to what your opponent is doing!
Jidmah wrote: In MtG tournaments, lying about public information will get you game losses, match losses or even removed from the tournament (depending on how often you do it at what level of event). Things that anyone could see, like that hiding Tau warrior, number of wounds left on a model or the stats of a weapon.
MtG also punishes you for not telling your opponent when he is playing the rules wrong, especially if it's in your favor. You would have to tell your opponent if he is putting a -1 modifier on his shooting when he shouldn't. It's called failure to maintain the game state.
WH40kTOs (including GW) could learn a lot from the DCI. But history has shown that humanity usually doesn't learn from mistakes of the past
Yes, lying about public information in mtg is a failure to maintain the game state. But when your opponent is getting ready to declare attacks you don't need to remind them that one of your creatures has deathtouch or that one of you untapped lands is a maze of ith. If the cards aren't physically blocked by other cards then you're not failing to maintain the game state or hiding anything. In the theoretical case of a firewarrior behind a wall controlling an objective it's your opponent's responsibility to remember he's there. You don't have to acknowledge its existence unless your opponent asks. The same as how you don't have to remind your opponent that they have a unit in reserve still during their turn 3. Also if your opponent asks if their unit is in range to shoot one of your units you only have to say yes or no, not "yes but you'd need a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound, you should probably shoot this other unit instead". The important thing of course is the wording of any question your opponent asks. In a friendly game it's good sportsmanship to give them reminder about something here or there but in a tournament you have no obligation to help your opponent with their tactics.
Skaorn wrote: So can anyone provide actual proof that:
1) the player in question was actually cheating.
Or
2) the accuser is making his claims up because he lost to hurt the guy who beat him.
If you're claiming that the op is just making up nonsense, i counter with a challenge: Do you really exist? Prove it!
But if we're assuming that OPs information isn't a absolute lie, then yes, the opponent did cheat. He may not have purposely cheated. Maybe he's just really bad, forgetful, or has problems seeing/reading. Even if that is true, he did cheat.
Skaorn wrote: So can anyone provide actual proof that:
1) the player in question was actually cheating.
Or
2) the accuser is making his claims up because he lost to hurt the guy who beat him.
If you're claiming that the op is just making up nonsense, i counter with a challenge: Do you really exist? Prove it!
But if we're assuming that OPs information isn't a absolute lie, then yes, the opponent did cheat. He may not have purposely cheated. Maybe he's just really bad, forgetful, or has problems seeing/reading. Even if that is true, he did cheat.
Ok, prove to me that your not the OP's friend, follower, or just the OP on a dummy account. If you actually read my post my issue is the OP running around YouTube and forums smearing this guy's name rather than working with the TO about it. In many places this would be deemed unacceptable in modern society. A person should not be harassed by someone over something like this be someone on the other side of the planet who likely would have no contact with this guy other than the OP throwing a tantrum on the internet, instead of handling things like a responsible adult. Then again, I suppose any views for his channel are good views.
If you want to believe everything you read or see on the internet that is convenient for you, feel free. I wasn't there and it has no effect on me here in the USA. I don't know which one of these guys is telling the truth and which is lying. Both are biased which is why I'd rather base my opinion on what happened on the findings of the TO who should have an interest in being fair and impartial. But he has a reputation!!! So what, through most of my time in school people thought I was a hardcore drug using satanist. Reputation can be manipulated. In the areas I play in, cheaters get outed, they stop getting people to play with, and TOs watch them like a hawk, if they weren't banned from the tourney already. Sure it isn't the instant gratification of slamming someone on the internet but it's based on yours and your community's actual experiences. What happens if the accused is proven to be innocent by an investigation by the TO? You going to double down and claim it's a conspiracy or accept that maybe this was not the best behavior? Maybe I'm being too suspicious of both but there was this guy from Nigeria who seemed so trustworthy and in need of help...
kaotkbliss wrote: Personally I don't see the issue with the objective complaint. If my guy's hidden, then yes you should think you have the objective. Just like if your guy is hidden, I should be led to believe I control the objective.
The guy wouldn't be hidden if everyone knew where he was!
It would be my fault for not remembering "Oh wait, he had a guy over here somewhere" That's part of getting good at a strategy game is paying attention to what your opponent is doing!
It isn't hidden from you the player, it is hidden from your models. There is a distinction.
I wouldn't criticise him for not saying, "oh don't forget this model is over here" (although it would be nice), but I think it is outrageous to do what he did when specifically asked about it.
Tell yourself whatever you want, there's nothing good about this. Other people have flaws, deal with them in a way that makes you look like an adult and keeps the community from look like a bunch of persecutorial rules zealots.
The OP raising this issue doesn't make the community toxic, far from it. There are certain members of our community that are the toxic ones and hopefully this extra attention makes them address their own behaviour. it will mean that anyone that comes up against said target players will be sure to keep an eye on the rules like a hawk. This will be even more important to people who are new to the game that these toxic players are known to take advantage of.
Remember the ATC incident. Many of the opponents of the targeted players stated they kept an extra eye on making sure the targeted players kept to the rules. It's actually healthy for the game.
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Skaorn wrote: So can anyone provide actual proof that:
1) the player in question was actually cheating.
Or
2) the accuser is making his claims up because he lost to hurt the guy who beat him.
If your favorite sports team looses and a player or coach goes on a rant to the media that they only lost because the other team's star player dopes, what do you think would happen to the guy ranting? They'd probably get hit with fines and suspensions because it is poor behavior that reflects badly on the sport. The accusations also might not have any grounding in reality. If the player had suspicions, they should have gone to the people who run their organization.
Cheaters should be punished, yes. Accused cheaters shouldn't have to deal with Internet lynch mobs based on the words of their supposed victim. What happens if it turns out the accuser is making things up? I realize that waiting for TOs to investigate claims of cheating lacks the instant gratification of righteous indignation but unless there is real evidence than you could just be getting played by the OP.
Maybe the accused's reply indicated some sketchy behavior but using one's internet presence rather than going to the TO to get vindication is super sketchy in my book.
Well both parties get their say on it in the court of public opinion.
And it appears that the accused made multiple mistakes and poor sportsmanship choices, by his own admission. Further his character has been in question by multiple sources. Perhaps we could hear from the TO to get a final say on the matter.
Both the OP and the accused are well known in their community. Could the OP use his upstanding character to assassinate someone with already a sketchy history? Its possible but where there's smoke there's fire. You can't make stuff up for the most part and the OP has demonstrated that the accused made several mistakes.
At the end of the day there is very little punishment for those who break the rules so if you don't get a satisfactory response mid game, you just have to cop it. Arguing with a TO is unacceptable and in this case the OP did the right thing. You say cheaters should be punished when in reality finding out if someone cheated is almost impossible.
The best thing to come out of this is that future opponents of the accused will keep an eye out on his behaviour. Might be a little hard that his name has been removed.
Ok, prove to me that your not the OP's friend, follower, or just the OP on a dummy account.
Prove to me you're not a robot sent from the future to destroy the 40k community!!!
My point was to point out the ridiculousness of your previous statements, which you failed to catch onto. You can't prove something in the negative. You're just making random accusations, and are you really aren't following the discussion here.
The OP very well could be full of crap (as i said in my post), but the fact that some people do fudge things or straight out cheat does remain a valid point of discussion. Nobody is forming a lynch mob - people here are discussing what should/could be done about cheaters. Mods removed the named person.
WH40kTOs (including GW) could learn a lot from the DCI. But history has shown that humanity usually doesn't learn from mistakes of the past
Yes, lying about public information in mtg is a failure to maintain the game state. But when your opponent is getting ready to declare attacks you don't need to remind them that one of your creatures has deathtouch or that one of you untapped lands is a maze of ith. If the cards aren't physically blocked by other cards then you're not failing to maintain the game state or hiding anything. In the theoretical case of a firewarrior behind a wall controlling an objective it's your opponent's responsibility to remember he's there. You don't have to acknowledge its existence unless your opponent asks. The same as how you don't have to remind your opponent that they have a unit in reserve still during their turn 3. Also if your opponent asks if their unit is in range to shoot one of your units you only have to say yes or no, not "yes but you'd need a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound, you should probably shoot this other unit instead". The important thing of course is the wording of any question your opponent asks. In a friendly game it's good sportsmanship to give them reminder about something here or there but in a tournament you have no obligation to help your opponent with their tactics.
This is bad for getting games in time since it will require players to circle table over often though to ensure no hidden models...well guess if the tau player wants game end turn or two sooner due to time
40k is just the absolute worst game to try to make into a serious tournament game. Codexes with rules scattered throughout. No datacards or something similar. Player aversion to the point of silliness to any kinds of tokens or markers. It's like someone said "how can I make a game in the most tournament unfriendly way possible?". It's a recipe for easy cheating, lots of honest mistakes, and incredibly slow play, and it's nearly impossible for consistent TO policing. All that said, it is great beer and pretzels fun
Ok, prove to me that your not the OP's friend, follower, or just the OP on a dummy account.
Prove to me you're not a robot sent from the future to destroy the 40k community!!!
My point was to point out the ridiculousness of your previous statements, which you failed to catch onto. You can't prove something in the negative. You're just making random accusations, and are you really aren't following the discussion here.
The OP very well could be full of crap (as i said in my post), but the fact that some people do fudge things or straight out cheat does remain a valid point of discussion. Nobody is forming a lynch mob - people here are discussing what should/could be done about cheaters. Mods removed the named person.
Actually I am a robot sent from the future to destroy the future of the 40K community. You apparently miss the ridiculousness of your own statements by challenging me to prove that I exist, to question my previous statement, yet you can't seem to spare the brain power to question the OP's statements. Also you can prove something in the negative, ask any mathematician, scientist, lawyer, etc.
So my original statement ask if there was evidence that the accused cheated, my fault for not stating unbiased evidence. My next question could have been worded better, but was asking if there was (unbiased) evidence that the accuser was making stuff up, per the accused. Now I did not claim "the OP is just making up nonsense" just pointing out that taking the OP's statements may not be honest and commenting on the crappy behavior I have gotten to witness first hand from the OP on this very thread, using the accused's real life information and calling him a cheater, rather than trying to work things out with the TO. This is the only thing I have actually accused the OP of and I fail to see how that is random or that others haven't been discussing this same exact thing on this thread. I think you seem to be mistaking "hey guys, it's possible the OP might be lying" for "the OP is a damn dirty liar", which are two rather different statements.
Now, maybe your statement that "but if we're assuming that the OP's information isn't an absolute lie, then yes, he did cheat" wasn't supposed to sound so black and white, but I think you might understand why I might not have perceived your statement as saying "the OP could very well be full of crap". You did follow that up with "he may not have purposely cheated" ( ). "Maybe he's just really bad, forgetful, or has problems seeing/reading. Even if that is true, he did cheat". Now I'm sure you'll state that the reason you gave for the accused to have made mistakes was to point out how ridiculous his rebuttals were, but that kind of indicates that you were taking the OP's claims at face value or that you have a very bizarre definition of cheating. I don't think I've ever met someone before who didn't think cheating didn't need knowledge of what they're doing and active intent to cheat. Every time I've cheated at something, I knew exactly what I was doing.
If you want to back the OP's actions against an alleged cheater then feel free to believe what you want to believe, just know you could be getting played. My problem with the OP are from the actions that the OP took on this thread not about whatever might have happened on the other side of the Atlantic for, apparently, both of us. This is separate from my problem with all the people who seem to take the OP's statement of what actually happened. If the TO investigates and finds the accused did cheats and bans him from future events, great! One problem solved as it should be. If the accused starts getting harassment from all over because the OP outed him, though, because nut jobs used that info to track the accused down, that's a problem; especially if the guy is innocent of the OP's claims. There is a reason why the mods at least removed the guy's name here, to at least protect the site from legal entanglements (though hopefully because they also view it as sketchy behavior too). In short I don't think that shouting someone's name out over the Internet as a cheater is an appropriate response to someone who does "fudge things or straight out cheats". Considering your previous stance on cheating though, I'm kind of curious how fudging something would be any different than cheating in your mind.
BaconCatBug wrote: I just want to point out again that it's trivial to not be "cheated" the way the OP states. This whole witch hunt / brouhaha is an embarrassment.
You're right when you say it's embarrassing. However, everything else you said is incorrect. It doesn't matter how little or how much, how easy or how hard it was for the cheater to succeed. It's still cheating, and it's obvious from reading this that the cheater had a reputation before this came up.
Since we're posting our opinions: My opinion is that the fact that people are condoning cheating is disgusting. The fact that people are victim shaming is disgusting. Whether or not you believe the OP on if he was cheated against or not, the idea that several of you have both glorified the act of cheating, and blamed the victim for it is toxic for the community. I'm not talking about the people who disagree with the OP's response. I'm also not talking about the people who said that it never happened and left it at that. Reading these has lowered my opinion of several of you, and will effect my opinion of what you post in the future.
Thank god I don't know any of you in real life. After this thread, I'd never want to play you. It wouldn't be fun.
BaconCatBug wrote: I just want to point out again that it's trivial to not be "cheated" the way the OP states. This whole witch hunt / brouhaha is an embarrassment.
You're right when you say it's embarrassing. However, everything else you said is incorrect. It doesn't matter how little or how much, how easy or how hard it was for the cheater to succeed. It's still cheating, and it's obvious from reading this that the cheater had a reputation before this came up.
Since we're posting our opinions: My opinion is that the fact that people are condoning cheating is disgusting. The fact that people are victim shaming is disgusting. Whether or not you believe the OP on if he was cheated against or not, the idea that several of you have both glorified the act of cheating, and blamed the victim for it is toxic for the community. I'm not talking about the people who disagree with the OP's response. I'm also not talking about the people who said that it never happened and left it at that. Reading these has lowered my opinion of several of you, and will effect my opinion of what you post in the future.
Thank god I don't know any of you in real life. After this thread, I'd never want to play you. It wouldn't be fun.
If I stick my <APPENDAGE> into a hornets nest, is is blaming the victim when you tell me I am an idiot?
Thank god I don't know any of you in real life. After this thread, I'd never want to play you. It wouldn't be fun.
If I stick my <APPENDAGE> into a hornets nest, is is blaming the victim when you tell me I am an idiot?
That doesn't make any sense at all unless your attitude toward wargaming is to treat every single opponent as an outright cheater and expect every single action they take to be support with a full Harvord style reference if the specific rule and stat from all the rules materials.
I mean sure that would work, but darn it if its not going to slow things down (unless your opponent happens to have indexed and sticky noted their entire rules setup).
In the end if your opponent asks you something and you check it one expects what you checked to be conveyed faithfully and accurately.
Also the hornets nest still doesn't make any sense; why are you abusing poor innocent friendly hornets? What have they ever done to you for you stick your appendage into their personal space!
Overread wrote: That doesn't make any sense at all unless your attitude toward wargaming is to treat every single opponent as an outright cheater and expect every single action they take to be support with a full Harvord style reference if the specific rule and stat from all the rules materials.
Like I said earlier, Trust, but Verify. I admit, I am lucky enough to have 99% of the rules committed to memory, but even then I will always double check by either looking at my own codex or asking to see the opponents copy.
You only ever need to check once per game, if that. It doesn't "slow down" the game in the slightest.
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Mmmpi wrote: Thank god I don't know any of you in real life. After this thread, I'd never want to play you. It wouldn't be fun.
Funny, I've never had problems with any person I have played with.
Like I said earlier, Trust, but Verify. I admit, I am lucky enough to have 99% of the rules committed to memory, but even then I will always double check by either looking at my own codex or asking to see the opponents copy.
You only ever need to check once per game, if that. It doesn't "slow down" the game in the slightest.
It's a good way of handling things in general, but it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. It is not the players responsibility to mitigate the cheating attempts of their opponent. There shouldn't be any attempts in the first place.
The goal is not for an individual not to get cheated, but to foster a culture that condemns cheating and punishes it accordingly.
Like I said earlier, Trust, but Verify. I admit, I am lucky enough to have 99% of the rules committed to memory, but even then I will always double check by either looking at my own codex or asking to see the opponents copy.
You only ever need to check once per game, if that. It doesn't "slow down" the game in the slightest.
It's a good way of handling things in general, but it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. It is not the players responsibility to mitigate the cheating attempts of their opponent. There shouldn't be any attempts in the first place.
And there also shouldn't be any police because people shouldn't steal things. We live in an imperfect world. To be so naïve to think that people won't cheat is a problem on your end, not the cheaters.
BertBert wrote: The goal is not for an individual not to get cheated, but to foster a culture that condemns cheating and punishes it accordingly.
It would be better to prevent cheating in the first place by taking the tiniest shred of personal responsibility and prevent yourself from being cheated.
BertBert wrote: The goal is not for an individual not to get cheated, but to foster a culture that condemns cheating and punishes it accordingly.
It would be better to prevent cheating in the first place by taking the tiniest shred of personal responsibility and prevent yourself from being cheated.
It's not my responsibility not to become a victim of a crime (in a larger sense - cheating is obviously not a crime) – the responsibility lies solely with the perpetrator. You are right in that there are ways of avoiding this, and I'd personally handle the situation very similar to what you describe, but when we are talking about a case like this after the fact, it's utter nonsense to blame the guy who got cheated for not being careful enough. There should be no cheating period. In reality, there will always be cheaters, so they need to be dealt with accordingly.
Like I said earlier, Trust, but Verify. I admit, I am lucky enough to have 99% of the rules committed to memory, but even then I will always double check by either looking at my own codex or asking to see the opponents copy.
You only ever need to check once per game, if that. It doesn't "slow down" the game in the slightest.
It's a good way of handling things in general, but it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. It is not the players responsibility to mitigate the cheating attempts of their opponent. There shouldn't be any attempts in the first place.
And there also shouldn't be any police because people shouldn't steal things. We live in an imperfect world. To be so naïve to think that people won't cheat is a problem on your end, not the cheaters.
just because you lock your door at night doesn't mean the guy who robbed a buncha places shouldn't be dealt with harshly and condemned for his behavior
Same here. That is why it is important to act at the very second a cheater gets caught. Post everything you will get two stores or cities or countries of people siding with one dude over the other no matter what. Specially as they do not gain anything from their side being the wrong one.
Thank god I don't know any of you in real life. After this thread, I'd never want to play you. It wouldn't be fun.
If I stick my <APPENDAGE> into a hornets nest, is is blaming the victim when you tell me I am an idiot?
That doesn't make any sense at all unless your attitude toward wargaming is to treat every single opponent as an outright cheater and expect every single action they take to be support with a full Harvord style reference if the specific rule and stat from all the rules materials.
I mean sure that would work, but darn it if its not going to slow things down (unless your opponent happens to have indexed and sticky noted their entire rules setup).
In the end if your opponent asks you something and you check it one expects what you checked to be conveyed faithfully and accurately.
Also the hornets nest still doesn't make any sense; why are you abusing poor innocent friendly hornets? What have they ever done to you for you stick your appendage into their personal space!
Well. Seeing he's not looking to even finish any games(if you believe his 100% RAW) he doesn't mind that. After all he won't get any game finished anyway so wasting time double checking everything is OK before game locks up when RAW doesn't say either way.
tneva82 wrote: Well. Seeing he's not looking to even finish any games(if you believe his 100% RAW) he doesn't mind that. After all he won't get any game finished anyway so wasting time double checking everything is OK before game locks up when RAW doesn't say either way.
And like I say every time people bring up this libellous nonsense, there are only two situations where the game "locks up" RaW, and it's simple enough to avoid them.
BaconCatBug wrote: I just want to point out again that it's trivial to not be "cheated" the way the OP states. This whole witch hunt / brouhaha is an embarrassment.
You're right when you say it's embarrassing. However, everything else you said is incorrect. It doesn't matter how little or how much, how easy or how hard it was for the cheater to succeed. It's still cheating, and it's obvious from reading this that the cheater had a reputation before this came up.
Since we're posting our opinions: My opinion is that the fact that people are condoning cheating is disgusting. The fact that people are victim shaming is disgusting. Whether or not you believe the OP on if he was cheated against or not, the idea that several of you have both glorified the act of cheating, and blamed the victim for it is toxic for the community. I'm not talking about the people who disagree with the OP's response. I'm also not talking about the people who said that it never happened and left it at that. Reading these has lowered my opinion of several of you, and will effect my opinion of what you post in the future.
Thank god I don't know any of you in real life. After this thread, I'd never want to play you. It wouldn't be fun.
If I stick my <APPENDAGE> into a hornets nest, is is blaming the victim when you tell me I am an idiot?
In your example, you're to blame. But then the hornets will make it well known that they don't want you to literally have sex with their house. A cheater meanwhile tries to hide it. Why don't you spend some time coming up with a more relevant reply before you post here again.
In your example, you're to blame. But then the hornets will make it well known that they don't want you to literally have sex with their house. A cheater meanwhile tries to hide it. Why don't you spend some time coming up with a more relevant reply before you post here again.
For your example, I'm not blaming a victim, I'm blaming a perpetrator. One who got exactly what was advertised by said wasp's advertisements.
Still waiting for you to give a RELEVANT example.
As for playing you, I've already said that I refuse to, not that I know who you are to even try. (And I'm not asking either.) Or to check your references.
tneva82 wrote: Well. Seeing he's not looking to even finish any games(if you believe his 100% RAW) he doesn't mind that. After all he won't get any game finished anyway so wasting time double checking everything is OK before game locks up when RAW doesn't say either way.
And like I say every time people bring up this libellous nonsense, there are only two situations where the game "locks up" RaW, and it's simple enough to avoid them.
In your example, you're to blame. But then the hornets will make it well known that they don't want you to literally have sex with their house. A cheater meanwhile tries to hide it. Why don't you spend some time coming up with a more relevant reply before you post here again.
Feel free to find a single person who's played a game with me who had a bad time. I'm willing to even play a game with you via TTS if you wish.
Would he have to double check your list for points, re measure each move, memorize all weapon profiles, track your CP expenditure, and ensure dice are not loaded to not be at fault if you decided to bend the rules a little?
Not saying that you or anyone here would, but its just an example of how easily a game can become a chore if you can't trust the other player to do anything... Sure it would be prudent to verify now and again, but you really shouldn't have to police up your opponent to that degree or be the one to blame should things go sideways.
Jidmah wrote: In MtG tournaments, lying about public information will get you game losses, match losses or even removed from the tournament (depending on how often you do it at what level of event). Things that anyone could see, like that hiding Tau warrior, number of wounds left on a model or the stats of a weapon.
MtG also punishes you for not telling your opponent when he is playing the rules wrong, especially if it's in your favor. You would have to tell your opponent if he is putting a -1 modifier on his shooting when he shouldn't. It's called failure to maintain the game state.
WH40kTOs (including GW) could learn a lot from the DCI. But history has shown that humanity usually doesn't learn from mistakes of the past
Yes, lying about public information in mtg is a failure to maintain the game state. But when your opponent is getting ready to declare attacks you don't need to remind them that one of your creatures has deathtouch or that one of you untapped lands is a maze of ith.
You must tell him that your creature has deathtouch once it deals damage though. If your opponent asks if there is any obvious way to prevent damage from his attacker you must not lie about your Maze of Ith. Depending on your REL you can tell your opponent that you are not obligated to tell him derived information, but you cannot lie to him.
According to the OP: "I asked him if I controlled an objective, he said yes." His opponent clearly lied to a question with an answer that was public knowledge and would be punished for such in MtG.
If the cards aren't physically blocked by other cards then you're not failing to maintain the game state or hiding anything. In the theoretical case of a firewarrior behind a wall controlling an objective it's your opponent's responsibility to remember he's there. You don't have to acknowledge its existence unless your opponent asks.The same as how you don't have to remind your opponent that they have a unit in reserve still during their turn 3. Also if your opponent asks if their unit is in range to shoot one of your units you only have to say yes or no, not "yes but you'd need a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound, you should probably shoot this other unit instead".
Sure, you don't have to tell him before he moves. You don't even need to tell him when he asks - multiple opponents I have played over the years answered similar question with "we'll see when it's time to count VP" or "we can check when you are done moving your models". The only thing that you can't do is lie about it.
In more recent rules you are even required to tell your opponent about optional triggers that he has no reason to miss, like "you may gain 1 life" when there is no drawback to it.
The important thing of course is the wording of any question your opponent asks. In a friendly game it's good sportsmanship to give them reminder about something here or there but in a tournament you have no obligation to help your opponent with their tactics.
This is the core of it. Apparently he lied about it, and that is not OK, friendly game or not.
In your example, you're to blame. But then the hornets will make it well known that they don't want you to literally have sex with their house. A cheater meanwhile tries to hide it. Why don't you spend some time coming up with a more relevant reply before you post here again.
Feel free to find a single person who's played a game with me who had a bad time. I'm willing to even play a game with you via TTS if you wish.
Would he have to double check your list for points, re measure each move, memorize all weapon profiles, track your CP expenditure, and ensure dice are not loaded to not be at fault if you decided to bend the rules a little?
Not saying that you or anyone here would, but its just an example of how easily a game can become a chore if you can't trust the other player to do anything... Sure it would be prudent to verify now and again, but you really shouldn't have to police up your opponent to that degree or be the one to blame should things go sideways.
Any thought to prevent cheating aside, the game would be a chore. Based on his sig, he and I have a very different interpretation of quite a few rules. I'm sure at some point he'll say that I'm wrong about them, but that just makes our gaming incompatibility even more obvious.
BaconCatBug wrote: I just want to point out again that it's trivial to not be "cheated" the way the OP states. This whole witch hunt / brouhaha is an embarrassment.
You're right when you say it's embarrassing. However, everything else you said is incorrect. It doesn't matter how little or how much, how easy or how hard it was for the cheater to succeed. It's still cheating, and it's obvious from reading this that the cheater had a reputation before this came up.
Since we're posting our opinions: My opinion is that the fact that people are condoning cheating is disgusting. The fact that people are victim shaming is disgusting. Whether or not you believe the OP on if he was cheated against or not, the idea that several of you have both glorified the act of cheating, and blamed the victim for it is toxic for the community. I'm not talking about the people who disagree with the OP's response. I'm also not talking about the people who said that it never happened and left it at that. Reading these has lowered my opinion of several of you, and will effect my opinion of what you post in the future.
Thank god I don't know any of you in real life. After this thread, I'd never want to play you. It wouldn't be fun.
If I stick my <APPENDAGE> into a hornets nest, is is blaming the victim when you tell me I am an idiot?
There are strange hills to choose to die on, of which defending and condoning cheaters is one, but layering that with wasp’s nest/genital-based false equivalence fallacies is amazing. Watching this guy dig that hole deeper and deepe is just super entertaining.
Well, those who choose to die on that hill you're seeing are seeing it called 'Defending the general community from name-and-shame epidemics'. Or 'Defending their beloved community from becoming witchhunters operating on heresay'. Or 'Defending their community from getting overly involved in a petty dispute that should be relegated to the two involved parties and the relevant TO".
It sure seems like a strange hill when you only see the label most appropriate to you.
Not saying I see any of those particular labels myself, but I'm seeing a lot of talking past eachother.
Bharring wrote: Well, those who choose to die on that hill you're seeing are seeing it called 'Defending the general community from name-and-shame epidemics'. Or 'Defending their beloved community from becoming witchhunters operating on heresay'. Or 'Defending their community from getting overly involved in a petty dispute that should be relegated to the two involved parties and the relevant TO".
It sure seems like a strange hill when you only see the label most appropriate to you.
Not saying I see any of those particular labels myself, but I'm seeing a lot of talking past eachother.
You can absolutely disagree with the specific behaviour of the OP in this specific event without generally condoning cheating or generally victim-blaming, as some are choosing to do. Don’t pretend there are just two polar opposite stances here.
And if you choose to throw in wasp’s nest/genital fallacies (a thing I can’t believe I’ve typed twice) you’re just into the realm of utterly comical.
Lets try this: I forgot to lock my front door this morning.
Some kid tried the door, saw some stuff inside he liked, and stole it.
I should have locked my door. It's ok to tell me I should have locked my door.
The difference is who gets what 'blame'. IMO, blaming me for not locking my door is OK *provided* doing so in no way diminishes the blame on the kid for stealing my stuff.
In other words, the kid is 100% to blame. But somehow, I'm partly to blame, too. This works perfectly fine: contrary to most peoples' conception, blame (and glory) doesn't "add up" to 100%. It's entirely possible for the kid to be entirely at fault, and there still be things I could have done to prevent it.
Writing off locking my door as 'blaming the victim' incorrectly downplays what I must do, every day. It incorrectly claims that it's fine to not lock your door.
The problem with 'blaming the victim' is when you try to paint that kid as not a problem, because I should have locked my door. The kid is a thief. He needs to be punished. Just because his victim is stupid doesn't mean it's ok.
It’s not an entirely apt analogy though. Real-world crime and cheating at toy soldiers aren’t really the same thing at all. Cheating at a game is all on the cheater, as you’re breaking the social contact as well as the rules. You agree to abide by rules and a level of trust is assumed. One player is not obliged to police the other... that’s the difference here.
A good part of this game is knowing the rules for the units you are going up against. How can you realistically prioritize targets if you don't know what you are shooting at?
If someone tells me their non eldar infantry moves more than 6" I am going to ask them to show me. If someone is playing a forge world unit I've never seen - I am going to ask them to show me it at the start of the game. If they don't have rules for it - I am not going to play them - it's that simple.
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JohnnyHell wrote: It’s not an entirely apt analogy though. Real-world crime and cheating at toy soldiers aren’t really the same thing at all. Cheating at a game is all on the cheater, as you’re breaking the social contact as well as the rules. You agree to abide by rules and a level of trust is assumed. One player is not obliged to police the other... that’s the difference here.
The social contract is kind of null and void when you go to a tournament. At tournaments - you are enemies.
Lets try this: I forgot to lock my front door this morning.
Some kid tried the door, saw some stuff inside he liked, and stole it.
I should have locked my door. It's ok to tell me I should have locked my door.
The difference is who gets what 'blame'. IMO, blaming me for not locking my door is OK *provided* doing so in no way diminishes the blame on the kid for stealing my stuff.
In other words, the kid is 100% to blame. But somehow, I'm partly to blame, too. This works perfectly fine: contrary to most peoples' conception, blame (and glory) doesn't "add up" to 100%. It's entirely possible for the kid to be entirely at fault, and there still be things I could have done to prevent it.
Writing off locking my door as 'blaming the victim' incorrectly downplays what I must do, every day. It incorrectly claims that it's fine to not lock your door.
The problem with 'blaming the victim' is when you try to paint that kid as not a problem, because I should have locked my door. The kid is a thief. He needs to be punished. Just because his victim is stupid doesn't mean it's ok.
This is an excellent way to describe it. It's okay to hold two specific views distinctly about a complex subject.
A good part of this game is knowing the rules for the units you are going up against. How can you realistically prioritize targets if you don't know what you are shooting at?
If someone tells me their non eldar infantry moves more than 6" I am going to ask them to show me. If someone is playing a forge world unit I've never seen - I am going to ask them to show me it at the start of the game. If they don't have rules for it - I am not going to play them - it's that simple.
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JohnnyHell wrote: It’s not an entirely apt analogy though. Real-world crime and cheating at toy soldiers aren’t really the same thing at all. Cheating at a game is all on the cheater, as you’re breaking the social contact as well as the rules. You agree to abide by rules and a level of trust is assumed. One player is not obliged to police the other... that’s the difference here.
The social contract is kind of null and void when you go to a tournament. At tournaments - you are enemies.
Going to disagree about the social contract being void. Even in high level sports there is an expectation that neither team will cheat. I would say the same applies to 40k even in a tournament setting.
Yeah...no. Tournament games are not like casual games. In a casual game I expect that everyone is going to let you go back and fix a simple mistake.
You should actually expect that everyone at a tournament is trying to cheat you. They aren't your friends. They are trying to take your money. Not saying that you should be mean to them - I am very nice. I expect everyone is trying to cheat me though - that's why I catch lots of cheaters and never get cheated myself.
How do I do this? I know the rules to the frigging game.
The social contract is kind of null and void when you go to a tournament. At tournaments - you are enemies.
I can't agree with that. I understand where your coming from but I'll be a good sport even if it costs me a game, chances are I wont realize it's costing me the game anyway.
I can be nice and still pull your teeth out. Well, most of them any way. I think that attitude of being ruthless is something most players out grow.
A good part of this game is knowing the rules for the units you are going up against. How can you realistically prioritize targets if you don't know what you are shooting at?
If someone tells me their non eldar infantry moves more than 6" I am going to ask them to show me. If someone is playing a forge world unit I've never seen - I am going to ask them to show me it at the start of the game. If they don't have rules for it - I am not going to play them - it's that simple.
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JohnnyHell wrote: It’s not an entirely apt analogy though. Real-world crime and cheating at toy soldiers aren’t really the same thing at all. Cheating at a game is all on the cheater, as you’re breaking the social contact as well as the rules. You agree to abide by rules and a level of trust is assumed. One player is not obliged to police the other... that’s the difference here.
The social contract is kind of null and void when you go to a tournament. At tournaments - you are enemies.
Going to disagree about the social contract being void. Even in high level sports there is an expectation that neither team will cheat. I would say the same applies to 40k even in a tournament setting.
That's not really true. If you pay attention to sports at all. You will see people cheat all the time. There is holding on literally every play in the NFL. Performance enhancing drugs are a huge thing. Lance armstrong was captain America until everyone found out hes the biggest fraud in the history of the sport - then he said he cleaned his act up - and he was still cheating. I could go on and on. There is lots of cheating.
I'd even wager that a lot of the "famous" 40k players are also cheaters. Cheating is pretty rampant in my experience. It's why I don't like to go to tournaments. I'd rather play with my good friends. You know - the ones that I don't even have to watch roll dice. Because I know they aren't cheating me.
The social contract is kind of null and void when you go to a tournament. At tournaments - you are enemies.
I can't agree with that. I understand where your coming from but I'll be a good sport even if it costs me a game, chances are I wont realize it's costing me the game anyway.
I can be nice and still pull your teeth out. Well, most of them any way. I think that attitude of being ruthless is something most players out grow.
Just trying to make a point. Your opponent at a tournament - wants nothing more than for you to lose. They get a bigger score the worse you lose. It's not like a casual game with your buds...It is a lot different. No I am also not a dick. I am super friendly - there is a switch that goes off though when I suspect something is off. Fast dice me one time and I am watching every dice roll. That kind of thing. You have to be proactive to no get cheated sometimes.
JohnnyHell wrote: If you cheat to win at something and thereby prove yourself, you prove only that you’re a fraud.
I don't cheat - I am highly opposed to it. I'm sure lance armstrong didn't feel like a fraud after 7 tour de France wins. The dude literally didn't even think he was cheating. Obviosuly this isn't Tour de France - but it's the same concept. There will be cheaters because people prefer winning to losing. So watch yourself - watch everyone around you.
JohnnyHell wrote: If you cheat to win at something and thereby prove yourself, you prove only that you’re a fraud.
No argument there. The question is who gets to administer justice. The Authorities or the Mob?
Who administers justice if you just sit there and let them cheat you? You go home a loser and they move on and win. Then you make a post and lots of people say..."hey that's too bad". That doesn't do much to fix the problem does it? The only one that can protect you from cheaters is you.
I find in any tournament setting ESPECIALLY if there are prizes to be had, cheating is pretty much a certainty, for many it seems to be a portion of their overall strategy.
I keep having visions of soccer/football with players going for a dive if an opponent so much as goes near them... some people "enhance" their interpretations of rules (Got one unit that moves 7"? They all do right??).
The game is entirely governed by rules.
It is dumb in the extreme to not have all your rulebooks (BRB and any Codex army you bring) and I agree that should be a disqualifier right there if you do not have it.
I swear every time I run into that kind of folk they run on the premise that not bringing the books give them permission to "remember" whatever rule they like.
NOTE: I have seen the angry aftermath of a Magic the Gathering player steals a card out of his opponent's deck and at some point demand a count for an illegal deck (if they know they are running a minimum size or playing Commander), it would be a simple matter to steal one of your opponent's books in 40k...
Seeing a few moments of "blaming the victim" this is how many people justify why they are allowed to cheat: if you are too "stupid" or too "meek" to say anything, you get what you deserve.
Let that one sink in a bit.
If you do not loudly and forcibly stand up for your rights and angrily nail that turkey to the wall, you do not deserve to play a game according to the rules but by whatever your opponent thinks best.
I am a bit beyond tired of that attitude, because nice polite people use that behavior as a last resort while the "cheater" it seems to be the first.
Worst thing is, you cannot pack your things up and refuse to play them since they would regard it as a win, it may even reward them to play worse so they can get others to quit.
I find I just point out the rules calmly and firmly, I can usually find the page to point to easily, lately it is easy to get hold of the opposing Codex's so I tend to bring those along.
Just having it next to you visible remarkably reduces the shenanigans, but not everyone likes to "waste" their money like that.
Yeah, call out the cheater but people really do make terrible errors so keep it in mind when pointing out "errors".
It becomes pretty apparent quickly (the loud confident voice speaking BS is easy to recognize) those who are accustomed to twisting rules.
JohnnyHell wrote: There are strange hills to choose to die on, of which defending and condoning cheaters is one, but layering that with wasp’s nest/genital-based false equivalence fallacies is amazing. Watching this guy dig that hole deeper and deepe is just super entertaining.
Fallacies or... phallicies?
Just harking back to the point about the apparently missing Codex - if the OP's opponent had lent his book to a friend, surely one of them shouldn't've been allowed to play in the event? Every tournament I've attended has mandated you have both the core rules for the game and all rules for your army with you, either in DTF or electronically. Is this something that has changed in the last couple of years?
JohnnyHell wrote: There are strange hills to choose to die on, of which defending and condoning cheaters is one, but layering that with wasp’s nest/genital-based false equivalence fallacies is amazing. Watching this guy dig that hole deeper and deepe is just super entertaining.
Fallacies or... phallicies?
Just harking back to the point about the apparently missing Codex - if the OP's opponent had lent his book to a friend, surely one of them shouldn't've been allowed to play in the event? Every tournament I've attended has mandated you have both the core rules for the game and all rules for your army with you, either in DTF or electronically. Is this something that has changed in the last couple of years?
"How do I do this? I know the rules to the frigging game."
You haven't shown that you *do* do this.
Trusting to my read of the maturity of this thread, I expect between 3 and 5 replies of the next 10 to include "hehe... he said DODO".
I think I subscribe to the realm of thought that this game isn't a tight enough rulesset to be SRZ BIZNIZ.
You shouldn't be watching like a hawk to ensure your opponent doesn't cheat you. At most, you should be watching like a hawk to ensure no mistakes are made. It might seem like a distinction without a difference, but the difference in mindset has a massive impact on the results. Because the social contract is probably the most important and comprehensive rulesset in the game. Especially at tournaments.
JohnnyHell wrote: There are strange hills to choose to die on, of which defending and condoning cheaters is one, but layering that with wasp’s nest/genital-based false equivalence fallacies is amazing. Watching this guy dig that hole deeper and deepe is just super entertaining.
Fallacies or... phallicies?
Just harking back to the point about the apparently missing Codex - if the OP's opponent had lent his book to a friend, surely one of them shouldn't've been allowed to play in the event? Every tournament I've attended has mandated you have both the core rules for the game and all rules for your army with you, either in DTF or electronically. Is this something that has changed in the last couple of years?
I find it odd how everyone instantly thought <APPENDAGE> was related to genitals. Really says a lot about their state of mind.
And to reiterate, both people are at fault here. The cheater for cheating, and the cheated for not taking the bare minimum effort to not be cheated. It's embarrassing that so many people are getting upset about objective facts. Next you'll be telling me people get angry when you follow the rules and insist that re-rolls happen before modifiers or something.
BaconCatBug wrote: I find it odd how everyone instantly thought <APPENDAGE> was related to genitals. Really says a lot about their state of mind.
It says that they're familiar with a common turn of phrase.
And to reiterate, both people are at fault here. The cheater for cheating, and the cheated for not taking the bare minimum effort to not be cheated. It's embarrassing that so many people are getting upset about objective facts. Next you'll be telling me people get angry when you follow the rules and insist that re-rolls happen before modifiers or something.
One person is at fault when cheating happens, the cheater. The cheated can only be admonished for not better protecting themselves from being cheated, but the cheater is the only one who has wronged someone. The cheated, at best, didn't do enough to prevent themselves from being wronged. They didn't cause the situation. They didn't do the bad thing. They just may not have stopped the bad thing from getting worse after the other person did the bad thing.
If I go to a rough neighborhood and get mugged, the mugger is at fault. I may be dumb for having gone there or not taken precautions, but the mugger is still the only one who deserves jail time.
Yes, lying about public information in mtg is a failure to maintain the game state. But when your opponent is getting ready to declare attacks you don't need to remind them that one of your creatures has deathtouch or that one of you untapped lands is a maze of ith.
You must tell him that your creature has deathtouch once it deals damage though. If your opponent asks if there is any obvious way to prevent damage from his attacker you must not lie about your Maze of Ith. Depending on your REL you can tell your opponent that you are not obligated to tell him derived information, but you cannot lie to him.
According to the OP: "I asked him if I controlled an objective, he said yes." His opponent clearly lied to a question with an answer that was public knowledge and would be punished for such in MtG.
You can't lie about having a Maze of Ith, but you can absolutely decline to answer a question like "Is there an on-board way to prevent damage" - you could respond to that question by saying "I only control these lands" and be fine, as long as the Maze isn't literally hidden from view in a stack on lands. But if the opponent asks "Do you control a Maze of Ith", you are obliged to answer "Yes".
Similarly, the exact question asked in this example matters. Here are four possible questions and responses:
"Is my guy within 3 inches?" "Yes" - absolutely fine, no obligation to mention the fire warrior.
"My guy's good for that objective, right?" "Yes" - Borderline, as the question is vague. It could mean "Is he in range?" or "Does he control it?" I personally would seek clarification, but I would not consider it cheating for the opponent to take the broader interpretation. After all, the guy could be checking if he's in range to confirm whether or not it's worth devoting resources to killing the fire warrior.
"My guy's good for that objective, right?" "He is within 3 inches" - Also fine, responding to an unclear question with an answer that is free knowledge.
"Does my guy control the objective?" "Yes" - Absolutely unacceptable. This would be an outright lie.
Now tell me - we have two conflicting accounts. Are you 100% sure you know what actually happened at that table? What the exact wording of the question and the response were?
Because I suspect the actual situation was a touch more nuanced and that neither account is exactly right. Of course, if things did go down exactly as described in the OP, then yes, that is cheating. But I've learned in my years as an MTG judge never to take a single account as gospel.
The upshot of this is that tournaments need to be run with well-defined rules, which are easily available, and competent and knowledgeable judging staff. What exactly that means depends on the event size.
In more recent rules you are even required to tell your opponent about optional triggers that he has no reason to miss, like "you may gain 1 life" when there is no drawback to it.
This is not true. In MTG, you are under no obligation to inform your opponent of triggers they control.
Medicinal Carrots wrote: If I go to a rough neighborhood and get mugged, the mugger is at fault. I may be dumb for having gone there or not taken precautions, but the mugger is still the only one who deserves jail time.
And this is where we fundamentally disagree. Yes, the mugger is the only one who deserves jail time, but he isn't the only one to blame. Call me old fashioned, but I am of the opinion that if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. When you go to a 40k tournament, it should be assumed that everyone will be WAAC, up to and including "cheating" or "unsportsmanlike" play.
WH40kTOs (including GW) could learn a lot from the DCI. But history has shown that humanity usually doesn't learn from mistakes of the past
Yes, lying about public information in mtg is a failure to maintain the game state. But when your opponent is getting ready to declare attacks you don't need to remind them that one of your creatures has deathtouch or that one of you untapped lands is a maze of ith. If the cards aren't physically blocked by other cards then you're not failing to maintain the game state or hiding anything. In the theoretical case of a firewarrior behind a wall controlling an objective it's your opponent's responsibility to remember he's there. You don't have to acknowledge its existence unless your opponent asks. The same as how you don't have to remind your opponent that they have a unit in reserve still during their turn 3. Also if your opponent asks if their unit is in range to shoot one of your units you only have to say yes or no, not "yes but you'd need a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound, you should probably shoot this other unit instead". The important thing of course is the wording of any question your opponent asks. In a friendly game it's good sportsmanship to give them reminder about something here or there but in a tournament you have no obligation to help your opponent with their tactics.
This is bad for getting games in time since it will require players to circle table over often though to ensure no hidden models...well guess if the tau player wants game end turn or two sooner due to time
The difference is that I can see the entire game state from my seat in a game of magic. I might not be able to see an entire card if it's partially covered (is that a thing in Magic?), but I should always be able to see the card title and from that know what it does. However in a miniatures game, miniatures can be easily hidden from one side of the table. In games at my club, that's easy to resolve - I walk round and look. In a large tornament, where the tables are laid out in rows? I may have to walk dozens of metres just to get to the other side of the table, which is unfeasible, especially in a timed game. I would, and I would expect my opponent to, point out such easily-missed models when required.
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BaconCatBug wrote: When you go to a 40k tournament, it should be assumed that everyone will be WAAC, up to and including "cheating" or "unsportsmanlike" play.
In that case, I would say that 40k tournaments are a toxic influence on the hobby as a whole and should be discouraged.
WH40kTOs (including GW) could learn a lot from the DCI. But history has shown that humanity usually doesn't learn from mistakes of the past
Yes, lying about public information in mtg is a failure to maintain the game state. But when your opponent is getting ready to declare attacks you don't need to remind them that one of your creatures has deathtouch or that one of you untapped lands is a maze of ith. If the cards aren't physically blocked by other cards then you're not failing to maintain the game state or hiding anything. In the theoretical case of a firewarrior behind a wall controlling an objective it's your opponent's responsibility to remember he's there. You don't have to acknowledge its existence unless your opponent asks. The same as how you don't have to remind your opponent that they have a unit in reserve still during their turn 3. Also if your opponent asks if their unit is in range to shoot one of your units you only have to say yes or no, not "yes but you'd need a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound, you should probably shoot this other unit instead". The important thing of course is the wording of any question your opponent asks. In a friendly game it's good sportsmanship to give them reminder about something here or there but in a tournament you have no obligation to help your opponent with their tactics.
This is bad for getting games in time since it will require players to circle table over often though to ensure no hidden models...well guess if the tau player wants game end turn or two sooner due to time
The difference is that I can see the entire game state from my seat in a game of magic. I might not be able to see an entire card if it's partially covered (is that a thing in Magic?), but I should always be able to see the card title and from that know what it does. However in a miniatures game, miniatures can be easily hidden from one side of the table. In games at my club, that's easy to resolve - I walk round and look. In a large tornament, where the tables are laid out in rows? I may have to walk dozens of metres just to get to the other side of the table, which is unfeasible, especially in a timed game. I would, and I would expect my opponent to, point out such easily-missed models when required.
In magic, it's common practice to place your graveyard or your exile as single stack (some people even put their exile face-down to distinguish it from their graveyard), so certain cards that are public information are in places where you cannot see them from your seat. Your opponent is still obligated to tell you what and how many cards are in those stacks.
But I agree with your assessment, especially under the premise that most tournament setups don't support circling around the table without effort.
Feel free to hide models from other models, but models hidden from PLAYERS are not part of the game.
Pretty much the last two pages of this this thread have totally derailed onto the tangent sidetrack.
The whole point of the OP posting was to highlight to the wider 40k community this player’s unwholesome reputation, his shocking sportsmanship and his propensity to use dishonest tactics to win - aka cheating. Which myself and many others in the U.K. 40k community have witnesssd.
A lot of the more recent posts are focusing on the marginal internet ethics regarding possible witch hunts. The Mods have removed the personal information, so.. what’s the point?
As a side point, it should not, and in my experience is not, the case that you should assume that people are your ‘enemies’ at tournaments or you assume opponent is cheating you. Been a couple of years since I played at a decent level in 40k but aside from only two very poor exceptions (in more than 20+ tournaments of 5 games or over) that was not representative of the UK40k competitive community. Very much the opposite.
Yeah but from the way it looks right now, someone calling out a cheater publiclly is branded as being at least just as bad as the cheater himself, regardless of the repution the cheater has. Some people from Poland, that went to grey foam GT in UK this year pointed out that it goes as far as people trying to correct rules durning game play or calling TOs if the opposing side keeps being stubborn, being viewed as being unfair, even by the TOs. Which imo is mind blowing.
UK is still better then some other countries. The spaniards don't care if someone cheated, specially if the cheater was spanish and the cheated was not. they just roll the next round and tell you it is tought luck.
A mass of victim blaming, 'x is as bad as y' and other 'enlightened centrist' though processes that try to paint a situation as too complex to properly understand. Probably the worst position taken here so far was that the cheaters were 'in the right' for cheating, because it makes the game more 'fun'. OP was the bad guy for daring to be mildly upset that he be treated in a way that many others would find abhorrent.
Karol wrote: Yeah but from the way it looks right now, someone calling out a cheater publiclly is branded as being at least just as bad as the cheater himself, regardless of the repution the cheater has.
Two wrongs simply don't make a right.
Cheating is bad.
Calling out people by their real names on the internet is bad.
If you do either, you're scum, no matter the reason.
Just do a little research what happens to people that got their personal information posted. Stuff ordered to their place, swat teams called, death threats, family members being threatened, breaking up families, people being forced to move, change/lose their job, leave the country, people getting psychic illnesses over all the things happening up to them commiting suicide.
Medicinal Carrots wrote: If I go to a rough neighborhood and get mugged, the mugger is at fault. I may be dumb for having gone there or not taken precautions, but the mugger is still the only one who deserves jail time.
And this is where we fundamentally disagree. Yes, the mugger is the only one who deserves jail time, but he isn't the only one to blame. Call me old fashioned, but I am of the opinion that if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.
"Old fashioned" is not the phrase I'd use to describe that attitude. I can't use the phrase I want to, so let's settle for calling it abhorrent. Your attitude is exactly the same as the one that states a woman who dresses provocatively is at fault for being sexually assaulted. If you truly believe that you need to take a long, hard look at your attitude towards...well, everything.
Medicinal Carrots wrote: If I go to a rough neighborhood and get mugged, the mugger is at fault. I may be dumb for having gone there or not taken precautions, but the mugger is still the only one who deserves jail time.
And this is where we fundamentally disagree. Yes, the mugger is the only one who deserves jail time, but he isn't the only one to blame. Call me old fashioned, but I am of the opinion that if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.
"Old fashioned" is not the phrase I'd use to describe that attitude. I can't use the phrase I want to, so let's settle for calling it abhorrent. Your attitude is exactly the same as the one that states a woman who dresses provocatively is at fault for being sexually assaulted. If you truly believe that you need to take a long, hard look at your attitude towards...well, everything.
Way to put words in my mouth. This is why nothing can ever be discussed these days, because people like you poison the well like it's going out of style.
We're talking about a toy soldier game for children, get a grip.
"Organised"