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 Sleep Spell wrote:

A fair number of people who go to tournaments 'play hard' usually most of them don't have a poor rep; that's kind of a bad omen to begin with. When the same hard playing person doesn't know his main army's own rules it becomes kind of suspicious.

How is it the first time playing seekers, tigersharks, FW and stratagems and at the same time one feels comfortable enough to dismiss the opponents doubts? Why pick up the codex if you're not going to bother getting the right values/rules?

If the casual teen who plays once every couple of weeks would have made fewer mistakes by checking his dex now and again, most will assume its malicious rather than just a series of blunders.

That is so true. A guy who maybe plays his 2-3ed event with the army or at least some of the units, has god knows how many training games behind him, suddenly forgets that his FW unit X doesn't have -1AP or that some rules interactions can't happen. And what is worse, if you don't call them out the very second they do it, it all ends like the last Interplanetario did for a polish player. TO tell you that the next round is already fixed, your opponent says he is "sorry" but of course he does get ruling in his favor etc.

Here is the response:

"First off I would like to apologise if you feel you have been cheated against.
I will address each complain you made against me, but first off I'll point out that there is a big big difference between cheating and making rules mistakes. Cheating is a deliberate action made with intent. If you believe this is something I did then I am frankly offended and can categorically state I do not cheat!!
You stated I checked my codex. Actually Adam had my codex next to you, and at many points YOU looked up the rules, not me. Since you had constant access to the codex, please don't blame me for reading anything wrong.



Now to get to your complaints.
1. You have made reference to orbital bombard. It does indeed hit on 4+. And i do not remember trying to ever hit a character with. Why would I? They are anti tank one use.

2. The ap-2 burst cannons. This was my mistake. Not cheating!! I have spent the whole of 8th using riptides, this is my first time ever using tigersharks.
But your claim it cost you the game is simply false. When a game is close, its close, when you have 1 model left and your opponent has most of his army left.... Its not close. So it didn't cost you the match.

3. The ap value of the seekers. This was done and pointed out in front of the T.O and frankly its rediculous you are mentioning a issue that was resolved that caused no problems, and I even let loose any missiles I had left. You then said in front of the T.O that you were.... Quote "Very happy with that"

4. Your mention of - 1 to hit I played right. Remember I had 2 commanders and they were always near your unit I made - 1. I'm not sure where your confusion with my play in this is, but I did play it correct. The only thing I can think is you may have interpreted my wording as a - 1 to hit for the unit. This is a misunderstanding.

5. Your complaint about my hidden fire warrior. This one makes no sense. You had a warlord near an objective. You asked if he was on the objective. I said yes. Because yes your warlord was in 3" of it. But my firewarrior controlled it. Thats tactical play and its not my job to tell you where my stuff is.

6. Wounds on longstrike. I can't comment on this because I don't remember saying that nor you doing 13 wounds right off. If I comment on this I would be lieing, so I can only apologise if this is the case.

Also I have all my books for all my units with me. Why wouldn't I.

Now while I understand loosing a game is never fun, I am a little upset given I really enjoyed playing you and our game. I have zero interest in. Cheating as it means any win I have is worthless. It degrades me as a player, and de values any standing I have.
So I once again state I did not cheat. I may have made a rule mistake, but these things do happen. And I apologise once again."

Make of that what you will.

 Sleep Spell wrote:

secretForge wrote:

If any or all of these claims are truthful or not, it should not matter at this point because there is no way to verify them. I'll admit that my friend doesn't have the most stellar of reputations, because he plays hard, and sometimes that kind of effort doesn't win over people.

A fair number of people who go to tournaments 'play hard' usually most of them don't have a poor rep; that's kind of a bad omen to begin with. When the same hard playing person doesn't know his main army's own rules it becomes kind of suspicious.

How is it the first time playing seekers, tigersharks, FW and stratagems and at the same time one feels comfortable enough to dismiss the opponents doubts? Why pick up the codex if you're not going to bother getting the right values/rules?

If the casual teen who plays once every couple of weeks would have made fewer mistakes by checking his dex now and again, most will assume its malicious rather than just a series of blunders.

I'd like to point to exhibit A on the accused standings as an expert of the Tau codex. His claims that he didn't know the rules for the units, does not fly.

Edit: Before anyone gets upset that I linked something where his name is posted, I'll just clean it up. He wrote an Op-Ed for Frontline Gaming, about how to use Tau post big-FAQ, so rather recently. In it, he made it clear he was the best Tau player in the UK, listing a host of references to support his claim.

My 2c. I don’t know the OP, and since I wasn’t there I can’t corroborate whether this was as he says or no. I did think the video was well done through, and he kept his cool under what must have felt like a lot of disappointment at the supposed treatment he received.

However..

I have played this individual. Many of the people on the UK scene know this guy, and this type of behaviour is common place. Blatant lies and outrageous sportsmanship is his modus operandi.

Normally, i would agree that outing people on the internet is poor taste, but this guy has been trying to spoil weekends for 40k’ers around Scotland and England for years now. He really has brought it on himself. It must be horrible for those that have got reputations - deserved or no - if they want to enjoy a stress free weekend of tournament gaming meeting new gamers. However, if you are continually lying and bullying opponents to the point of ruining their weekend - which is what this individual does, I have witnessed this - then sooner or later you will get what’s coming to you. So, in this regard the OP is completely justified in acting the way he has.

One thing people didn't mention when talking about the potential side effects of naming and shaming is that other people can have the same name. A witch hunt is even worse when it results in problems for someone completely unrelated. For example their was a comedian who thought their first TV appearance went well, turns out all the abuse and vitriol but instead hurled at someone completely unrelated who just happened to have the same name.

With something like the ITC there needs to be a database of infractions similar to what the DCI does with magic. In magic if a judge is called to resolve an issue then there is either a rewind where they undo actions in the game if possible, a player or both players can be given a warning or there can be a game or match loss. All depending on the severity of the infraction. The infraction is also recorded and if a pattern emerges in an event that player is disqualified from the event. If a pattern emerges over several events they can be barred from events altogether. The important thing in judging is intent which can be difficult to prove without a pattern. IDK if the ITC has any sort of qualification needed to judge an event but they really should have a test if they don't already. People also need to get over the stigma of calling a judge to resolve an issue. If there is an issue call a judge to resolve it, even if you're the one who made the mistake. Happens in magic all the time where players will call a judge on themselves when they notice they've made a mistake. Judges are there to resolve issues in line with the events policy in the fairest way. Calling a judge isn't attacking the other player it's saying that you think a mistake may have been made and you want it resolved fairly.

ah i know the type, players like that are made not born.

I switch off when i face em, slow the game down to a crawl and cause them win by a tiny margin effectively cocking them up from winning the event XD.

other option which i have also done in the past is to literally tell them after the first turn i'm not having fun, and quit there and then.. just to give them that small uncertainly that the maximum pts were not earned tactically (in the traditional playing the game sense)

 Caranthir987 wrote:
My 2c. I don’t know the OP, and since I wasn’t there I can’t corroborate whether this was as he says or no. I did think the video was well done through, and he kept his cool under what must have felt like a lot of disappointment at the supposed treatment he received.

However..

I have played this individual. Many of the people on the UK scene know this guy, and this type of behaviour is common place. Blatant lies and outrageous sportsmanship is his modus operandi.

Normally, i would agree that outing people on the internet is poor taste, but this guy has been trying to spoil weekends for 40k’ers around Scotland and England for years now. He really has brought it on himself. It must be horrible for those that have got reputations - deserved or no - if they want to enjoy a stress free weekend of tournament gaming meeting new gamers. However, if you are continually lying and bullying opponents to the point of ruining their weekend - which is what this individual does, I have witnessed this - then sooner or later you will get what’s coming to you. So, in this regard the OP is completely justified in acting the way he has.

I disagree. Attacking people on the Internet is attacking people on the Internet. Petty, childish and demonstrating one's own inability to address real-life problems.

What's wrong with people like the OP is the culture of fear they stoke, which causes others to overestimate the size and significance of whatever issue they are bellyaching about. The solutions that are proposed get more and more draconian until they become far worse than the problem they were originally intended to solve. Empathy is not the answer, this person needs to be dealt with in an appropriate manner.

Here is an example: My 4 year old daughter came with me to NOVA. Standing in an elevator with about 10 people, we were joking about why she's there. I said she's the judge and posts information about cheaters online. Everyone froze, conversation stopped, everyone was terrified by the mention of cheating. Not just that, but by the idea someone was there to shitpost. The suggestion this could happen immediately sucked the air out of the room, forget that I was talking about a 4 year old. Absolutely disgusting that the community would allow this kind of paranoia to fester, I'm still kind of shocked by what I saw happening.

TOs need to ban people like the OP from all organized play in a very public way. Sure, he was the victim of some cheating and that sucks. But it's the witchhunt that's scaring people and we need to recognize the harm that does. This is not a chicken in the egg problem, it's just chickens looking to whip up mobs when they feel aggrieved. Chickens should not be the loudest voice in the room, they should have a nice, safe space to peck at the dirt that's out of sight and out of mind and nowhere near a tournament.

Think about it for a minute: who would actually want to play games against someone who thinks it's reasonable to go and crap all over you on YouTube if you screw up on some rule? How is that a community anyone would want to be a part of? Do you think this is something that's going to get better or worse over time?

 techsoldaten wrote:

Think about it for a minute: who would actually want to play games against someone who thinks it's reasonable to go and crap all over you on YouTube if you screw up on some rule? How is that a community anyone would want to be a part of? Do you think this is something that's going to get better or worse over time?

No, I don't think anyone would like to play against such a person, but that's not quite representative of what the OP did. He didn't crap all over that guy because he screwed up some rule, but because he is convinced that his opponent has been blatantly cheating multiple times and systematically so.

If the events transpired as the OP says they did (to be fair, he could be lying for all we know), I feel his reaction is justified. If you check out the video, you'll find that it is measured and in no way inciting - at least I didn't get that impression.

Now to answer your second question: Yes, it will most definitely get better if cheaters get called out within their gaming environment and in an appropriate context. I personally cannot believe that honest players would so much as flinch on the mention of shitposting, because they should have nothing to fear.

Also, unsportsmanlike conduct covers a whole spectrum of things. Rolling and picking up (too) fast, getting caught multiple times trying to alter dice rolls, giving false information to your opponent etc. If you just don't do any of these things, your opponent will have no reason to call you out - easy as that.

BertBert wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Think about it for a minute: who would actually want to play games against someone who thinks it's reasonable to go and crap all over you on YouTube if you screw up on some rule? How is that a community anyone would want to be a part of? Do you think this is something that's going to get better or worse over time?

No, I don't think anyone would like to play against such a person, but that's not quite representative of what the OP did. He didn't crap all over that guy because he screwed up some rule, but because he is convinced that his opponent has been blatantly cheating multiple times and systematically so.

If the events transpired as the OP says they did (to be fair, he could be lying for all we know), I feel his reaction is justified. If you check out the video, you'll find that it is measured and in no way inciting - at least I didn't get that impression.

Now to answer your second question: Yes, it will most definitely get better if cheaters get called out within their gaming environment and in an appropriate context. I personally cannot believe that honest players would so much as flinch on the mention of shitposting, because they have nothing to fear.

Also, unsportsmanlike conduct covers a whole spectrum of things. Rolling and picking up (too) fast, getting caught multiple times trying to alter dice rolls, giving false information to your opponent etc. If you just don't do any of these things, your opponent will have no reason to call you out - easy as that.

Again, I disagree. Justifying the bad actions of one person based on the bad actions of someone else is just magnifying the problem, not a deterrent. What this is is a cultural poison that makes players paranoid of one another over a problem that affects a tiny number of games. It's the 40k version of Bear Patrol and it stinks.

This is not some random idiot complaining, the OP has a YouTube channel with about 3500 subscribers, he posted to Dakka and Reddit, there's no way he could have created a bigger spotlight. Many of the things he's complaining about are borderline at best. There are dozens of other ways he could have dealt with this and the idea he had no choice but to call him out on these social media channels is ridiculous.

I guess if you give people an easy button to turn their complaints into a megaphone, they will use it. But we should take the time to realize how childish and petty it is to do so, and ask ourselves why we would spend time around people like the OP. There's nothing courageous about all this, I'd rather play against a cheater than deal with a roomful of self-righteous videographers waiting to call me out if I screw up.

 techsoldaten wrote:


Again, I disagree. Justifying the bad actions of one person based on the bad actions of someone else is just magnifying the problem, not a deterrent. What this is is a cultural poison that makes players paranoid of one another over a problem that affects a tiny number of games. It's the 40k version of Bear Patrol and it stinks.

This is not some random idiot complaining, the OP has a YouTube channel with about 3500 subscribers, he posted to Dakka and Reddit, there's no way he could have created a bigger spotlight. Many of the things he's complaining about are borderline at best. There are dozens of other ways he could have dealt with this and the idea he had no choice but to call him out on these social media channels is ridiculous.

I guess if you give people an easy button to turn their complaints into a megaphone, they will use it. But we should take the time to realize how childish and petty it is to do so, and ask ourselves why we would spend time around people like the OP. There's nothing courageous about all this, I'd rather play against a cheater than deal with a roomful of self-righteous videographers waiting to call me out if I screw up.

Fair enough, you are of course entitled to your opinion and I do see a problem with witch hunts, too, but in this case I just don't see one happening. This is going to affect the cheater in the right context within the 40k hobby and tournament scene. Removed by BrookM

BertBert wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


Again, I disagree. Justifying the bad actions of one person based on the bad actions of someone else is just magnifying the problem, not a deterrent. What this is is a cultural poison that makes players paranoid of one another over a problem that affects a tiny number of games. It's the 40k version of Bear Patrol and it stinks.

This is not some random idiot complaining, the OP has a YouTube channel with about 3500 subscribers, he posted to Dakka and Reddit, there's no way he could have created a bigger spotlight. Many of the things he's complaining about are borderline at best. There are dozens of other ways he could have dealt with this and the idea he had no choice but to call him out on these social media channels is ridiculous.

I guess if you give people an easy button to turn their complaints into a megaphone, they will use it. But we should take the time to realize how childish and petty it is to do so, and ask ourselves why we would spend time around people like the OP. There's nothing courageous about all this, I'd rather play against a cheater than deal with a roomful of self-righteous videographers waiting to call me out if I screw up.

Fair enough, you are of course entitled to your opinion and I do see a problem with witch hunts, too, but in this case I just don't see one happening. This is going to affect the cheater in the right context within the 40k hobby and tournament scene. Removed by BrookM

Fair enough. Maybe it's unfair to call it a witchhunt. I haven't seen anyone being attacked for choosing not to participate, which was a big part of the witchhunt culture.

It would probably be more fair to compare it to professional wrestling. Flamboyant posturing, outrageous accusations / ridiculous stances, faux speeches about how this had to happen, all done to whip up a crowd into a frenzy. The OP is less like King Harald and more like Randy Savage, minus any claims of personal resourcefulness. Still think his actions are very creepy and would not want him hanging around me or people I care about.

And sure, this isn't broadcast television, it's just a YouTube channel with thousands of subscribers and 2 of the biggest forums for discussing the hobby online. Surely this is a pure and honest attempt to correct a serious injustice plaguing the entire community...

Top tips gentlemen and gentlewomen for not only tournies but warhammer.

1. Communication
2. Understanding
3. Having fun

Simple but hard. I'm glad this looks like it was made clear but after it getting a bit messy.

Happy wargaming

I do not necaseraly think it is black and white calling out a cheater on the internett. Some of the people posting in this thread says he is a known cheater. That he frequently play matches and post articles about the Tau. That the mistaces that where made should not happen by anyone of his standar. While it is hard to prove intent, the above are certanly strong points to the fact that he should know better. (To cheat ypu need to knowingly make mistakes, it is not enough just to makr misplays. You need intension behind it.)


The responses like "I made an honest mistake." are common behavior amongst cheaters and one often gets away with it unless it gets tracked over time. His friends posting something like "I know him and he does not cheat." tells us he has loyal or naive friends. Not necaseraly that he does not cheat.

So you have cheater, you want to call attension to it. Either for petty revenge or because you want this kind of behavior to stop. The intent as to why is not important. What options are there for doing something about it? Are there official channels or other places where it can be handeled? Does it get the weigjted reapons it needs? If there are no good exciting options taking dramatic steps as to calling him out on the internett on several cites is a good way to do something about it. There is nothing wrong about demanding justice for a problem in the communaty and demanding better from the players and from the orgenicers. Stop laying this at the feet of the OP.

How is it a witch hunt?
This isn't some random guy who got the rules wrong. This is a guy who has done so deliberately in multiple tournaments. He repeatedly lies.

This defence is always "oh sorry my mistake" but in multiple tournaments after getting called out? At a certain point its case closed.

Sorry but cheats exist. The idea that those who publicise they were cheated against should be banned is insane.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I disagree. Attacking people on the Internet is attacking people on the Internet. Petty, childish and demonstrating one's own inability to address real-life problems.

What's wrong with people like the OP is the culture of fear they stoke, which causes others to overestimate the size and significance of whatever issue they are bellyaching about. The solutions that are proposed get more and more draconian until they become far worse than the problem they were originally intended to solve. Empathy is not the answer, this person needs to be dealt with in an appropriate manner.

Here is an example: My 4 year old daughter came with me to NOVA. Standing in an elevator with about 10 people, we were joking about why she's there. I said she's the judge and posts information about cheaters online. Everyone froze, conversation stopped, everyone was terrified by the mention of cheating. Not just that, but by the idea someone was there to shitpost. The suggestion this could happen immediately sucked the air out of the room, forget that I was talking about a 4 year old. Absolutely disgusting that the community would allow this kind of paranoia to fester, I'm still kind of shocked by what I saw happening.

TOs need to ban people like the OP from all organized play in a very public way. Sure, he was the victim of some cheating and that sucks. But it's the witchhunt that's scaring people and we need to recognize the harm that does. This is not a chicken in the egg problem, it's just chickens looking to whip up mobs when they feel aggrieved. Chickens should not be the loudest voice in the room, they should have a nice, safe space to peck at the dirt that's out of sight and out of mind and nowhere near a tournament.

Think about it for a minute: who would actually want to play games against someone who thinks it's reasonable to go and crap all over you on YouTube if you screw up on some rule? How is that a community anyone would want to be a part of? Do you think this is something that's going to get better or worse over time?

Do you think this would have blown up the way it did if the accused wasn't already infamous for this kind of behavior? I don't think I've ever seen an accusation in the gaming community turn into a full-on witch hunt just on the basis of hearsay. In this case when someone watches the video or reads the threads, they're seeing a lot of corroboration from others, and that gives it more credence.

Seeing that the guy's official response was 'sorry, I misremembered a bunch of rules' when they have previously self-described as an expert on the new codex, well, I know which side I'm more likely to believe at the moment.

Now, preemptively banning players from tournaments on account of online drama is not something I can get behind, but gagging people from stating their mind about players they have problems with is also wrong IMO. Let people air their grievances and then, if an event's management considers them credible, assign a staffer to shadow the suspected problem player and give them the boot if they pull anything shady. Nobody should have to be afraid that someone making empty accusations will get them banned, but nobody should be told to just shut up and deal with cheating either, because complaining about a problem player might rock the boat.

Oh, and this isn't a 'witch hunt'. It's a public accusation. When angry 40K players show up to the guy's house or get him banned from every event in the UK absent any additional evidence of prior bad behavior, then we can call it a witch hunt. At the moment no harm has been done besides to the guy's reputation, which, as it seems, was not exactly positive before now.

Seems some have issues around asking to see rules, can come over as an accusation of something.

Had this in a former job of mine, chemical plant, a key part of the job was the willingness if you see something slightly odd to ask about it - contractor you haven't seen before, ask them where the work permit is etc - to the point that when being assessed if you were not seen doing this you would have failed.

Q: would it be worth making a point of asking to see a rule or two in most games, break the semi-taboo and remove any undertones of accusation to it - just normalise the idea that rules will be asked about.

We all benefit, you find out where obscure stuff is in your own book and those who shall we say have the tendency to be flexible with rules cannot depend upon what can be intimidation to face down those who want to ask but dare not - e.g. a younger player facing an older one.

Its meant to be a game, a cooperative one, a lot of the rules are not well written and require people to be sensible about them, a willingness to openly ask, and an acceptance that this will happen with a willingness to answer could be extremely useful - it also normalises the requirement to actually have the rules to hand.

used to Play Star Fleet Battles, had a semi-rule for tournaments that if you were questioned on an action it was up to you to show where it was legal - in a rulebook you could murder people with (though very well indexed and cross referenced in a way only a lawyer would love) - guideline was if you can;t find it in a few minutes, for that game its not there - incentive to know your rules, and the rules of the game better than your opponent

catbarf wrote:

Oh, and this isn't a 'witch hunt'. It's a public accusation. When angry 40K players show up to the guy's house or get him banned from every event in the UK absent any additional evidence of prior bad behavior, then we can call it a witch hunt. At the moment no harm has been done besides to the guy's reputation, which, as it seems, was not exactly positive before now.

A public accusation made by someone using a fake name.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

catbarf wrote:

Oh, and this isn't a 'witch hunt'. It's a public accusation. When angry 40K players show up to the guy's house or get him banned from every event in the UK absent any additional evidence of prior bad behavior, then we can call it a witch hunt. At the moment no harm has been done besides to the guy's reputation, which, as it seems, was not exactly positive before now.

A public accusation made by someone using a fake name.

this is why any accusation that does not also include evidence should be treated as worth the paper it isn't written on

I am not meaning this is as an insult or something wrong, but man this is so british it is crazy. How is someone suppose to prove anything after the game happens and there is no video material of it. All people that saw the game could be called biased and supporting one or the other side, so what they say it null and void.

You guys are often so nice, and try to be so not offending to anyone that, when someone really bad pops up, and I am not saying this about the situation here, you get screwed over and over again. Again am not saying that the supposed "cheater" here is the son of satan, but when we have problem like that it gets plastered everywhere, and not just polish forums.

 techsoldaten wrote:

TOs need to ban people like the OP from all organized play in a very public way.

Or maybe TOs should ban people whose response to cheating is to shoot the messenger. This obsession with hurt feelings and public image at the cost of truth is bizarre. You're not making the hobby better by sweeping problems under the rug, you're making it worse for everyone except cheaters, who will be all that more secure if they know that anyone ousting them will be the subject of a witch hunt. But of course there are people for whom this is the desired outcome... hmm.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

TOs need to ban people like the OP from all organized play in a very public way.

TOs should ban people whose response to cheating is to shoot the messenger. This obsession with hurt feelings and public image at the cost of truth is bizarre.

welcome to the 21st century, where "feelz" trump "facts".

What would be useful, I sort of assume it exists "somewhere" is a slightly more private forum used by TO and moderators to discuss things.

Have been to a few events (only one 40k), only had one blatant bit of cheating (guess which event?) with an illegal list, forgeworld model with no book and stats that appeared post event to have been totally made up, apparently this was "ok as he didn't win".

hadn't been playing long enough to spot what was going on (only went to help make up numbers).

At other events I've seen a whole load of rulespack stuff being ignored - typically around "models must be painted", various bits on maximum unit sizes etc, all of which get shrugged off with "well hes come a long way" or "well hes a younger player".

To be honest some events are their own worst enemies for not actually enforcing rules they themselves have created.

Doesn't seem to crop up in other games anything like as much, either because people are swinging it a bit less or people just know the rules well enough its not worth anyone trying, no idea what it is about 40k that attracts such behaviour really, or why its considered acceptable

Tyel wrote:
How is it a witch hunt?
This isn't some random guy who got the rules wrong. This is a guy who has done so deliberately in multiple tournaments. He repeatedly lies.

This defence is always "oh sorry my mistake" but in multiple tournaments after getting called out? At a certain point its case closed.

Sorry but cheats exist. The idea that those who publicise they were cheated against should be banned is insane.

Do you know this person and personally witnessed suspicious behavior from the person in question or are you just going along with what people say happened and declaring the person to be a cheater?

I don't know either party involved and not going to judge either on what was said to have happened. The OP should have brought this to the TO and let them handle it. Unfortunately this won't have immediately gratifying effects as they will now have to watch the suspected cheater (depending on when the TO was informed, this might mean putting them on a watch list for the next event) or reviewing the footage if there are cameras. I think the Tournament would be well within their right for banning the OP for engaging in a public smear campaign rather than allowing the TO to investigate and make a decision. Actual justice requires proof rather than popular opinion.

I've seen people swear up and down that the rules said one thing and were shocked when they went back and read it. Sometimes it was because the person misread something, the rules weren't as clear as they thought, or they were thinking about another edition. When I first played Tau in 3rd, for instance, I somehow thought Pulse carbines were rapid fire instead of assault 1. I have no idea how this happened other then my brain trying to edit reality so that they actually looked kind of useful. I was generally shocked when it was finally pointed out to me. I once got into an argument with a fellow CSM player who thought demonic strength and a powerfist gave you Str 10 because they hadn't read the FAQ that stated it was Str 9. I recently made a comment stating that Fusion guns had a range of 12", got corrected, and went back and found that the last time I played Tau they had a 12" range but went up in the next codex. Everyone, no matter how good they are, screws things up. Could the subject of the thread been cheating? Yes. Could the guy screwed up and the OP is the dishonest one, exaggerating and lying about what happened? Yes.

Honestly, are far better ways to cheat and most of them aren't obvious. Quickly rolling and lying about the number of successes on the far side of the table might get your opponent suspicious but it would be hard to prove that you're actually cheating. Loaded dice can work as long as you don't put in enough so it's obvious. Then you have more obvious questionable that is generally accepted, like conceding games against an opponent who was beating you so they can't get max points so you're buddy gets a higher score. I had a friend who got second place in a tournament because he played two games against friends of the guy who won first. Both conceded before they got tabled, ensuring their buddy edged my friend out in points. If the target of this thread can't come up with better ways to cheat than the ones listed, this thread is pointless. If true, the guy is already being shunned for his behavior and won't get any games in. Cheats exist, but so do liars and poor losers. Actually pulling off cheating and not getting caught at it is a lot harder and will generally correct itself without getting people on the other side of the world involved.

leopard wrote:
Seems some have issues around asking to see rules, can come over as an accusation of something.

What, you mean the codex he asked to see but was currently being "borrowed" by a "friend" of the guy in a timed situation? Oh how fething convenient...

OP asked to see his codex multiple times.

Tyel wrote:
Sorry but cheats exist. The idea that those who publicise they were cheated against should be banned is insane.

Yeah, I accept cheaters exist. I just think cheaters are better people than the jerks who poop-post on the Internet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

catbarf wrote:
Do you think this would have blown up the way it did if the accused wasn't already infamous for this kind of behavior?

I don't care about the reputation of the person being accused. People who poop-post about cheaters in 40k are doing more harm then good. I would be more likely to boycott a tournament for allowing a shitposter to play than a known cheater.

It's like revenge porn. Sure, someone caught you with your clothes off. It's not their job to share it with the rest of the world, and make the rest of us look bad in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Or maybe TOs should ban people whose response to cheating is to shoot the messenger.

That's an incredibly mature response.

You and the thousands of people like you, eager to find someone to pillory, are the reason poop-posters are worse than the worst cheaters. You're impressionable and ready to mob up at a moment's notice.

How about you give it a break and do something constructive?

-=Edit=- Lorek cleaned up the swears. Forum rules and all that.

 Grimtuff wrote:

leopard wrote:
Seems some have issues around asking to see rules, can come over as an accusation of something.

What, you mean the codex he asked to see but was currently being "borrowed" by a "friend" of the guy in a timed situation? Oh how fething convenient...

OP asked to see his codex multiple times.

I saw that, my point was more general about the fact that everyone should be open to ask, open to being asked and this should be the normal state of affairs, not something that has issues around it

 techsoldaten wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Sorry but cheats exist. The idea that those who publicise they were cheated against should be banned is insane.

Yeah, I accept cheaters exist. I just think cheaters are better people than the jerks who shitpost on the Internet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

catbarf wrote:
Do you think this would have blown up the way it did if the accused wasn't already infamous for this kind of behavior?

I don't care about the reputation of the person being accused. People who shitpost about cheaters in 40k are doing more harm then good. I would be more likely to boycott a tournament for allowing a shitposter to play than a known cheater.

It's like revenge porn. Sure, someone caught you with your clothes off. It's not their job to share it with the rest of the world, and make the rest of us look bad in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Or maybe TOs should ban people whose response to cheating is to shoot the messenger.

That's an incredibly mature response.

You and the thousands of people like you, eager to find someone to pillory, are the reason shitposters are worse than the worst cheaters. You're impressionable and ready to mob up at a moment's notice.

How about you give it a break and do something constructive?

why can't they both be bad? if this guy cheated? yeah a problem, I hear he's been banned from tournies, at the same time I agree the OP is attemtping to turn this into an internet crusade agaisnt the guy, which proably isn't proper eaither, I mean... foir what it's worth if I was a Dakka mod I'd have locked this thread. That said these cheating threads always have the same problem, so and so gets caught cheating, tons of people come forward to say he's a known cheater and they're glad he was finally caught, others come forward and defend the guy, claiming he's eaither a friend and never cheats, claiming the evidance isn't eneugh for a conviction (maybe not but most of the time it'd be eneugh for a verdict against the guy in a civil court) or just saying "whatever it's all GW's fault cause the game sucks" there are people who would leap to a known cheaters defence even with video to prove it, and THOSE people are the most toxic ones to the community, the people who, for whatever reason, send the signal cheating is ok.

A... middle ground, you say? On the internet? Tish, pshaw. How does one craft an edgy soundbite from that? Gotta rush to add your piece, and polarisation gets attention!

Cheating is never okay. And it should be dealt with appropriately by the TO at the event. Calling the Guy out on the internet anonymously is revenge, not justice.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
A... middle ground, you say? On the internet? Tish, pshaw. How does one craft an edgy soundbite from that? Gotta rush to add your piece, and polarisation gets attention!

... ohh right excuse me... THEY'RE BOTH BAD! KILL THEM BOTH! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! RAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!1111

To the OP.
I saw your video earlier today before I knew this thread was here.
I get it you needed to vent. I've been there a time or two.
I am wondering, knowing what you know now what would you do different to take the power away from the cheater?
How do you feel about how you have reacted to this event?
I don't know about where you play, local to me the TO changer match ups if the two players play against each other a lot. You might talk to your TO about a similar idea to not play people who you just don't get along with or have cheated you in the past. They might be willing. If that particular player is in fact a nasty cheater and enough people tell the TO's that they don't want to play, the cheater may have to find other places to play.
The big thing I would say is find a constructive solution and enhance your calm. It takes a clear mind to send little soldiers off to die over pointless objectives for the Emperor after all.