No new models. Codex release is down to nothing. Good for orkies but this is taking too long anyways.

Where are the sisters of battle...where is ynnari? Where is codex space marines 2.0? Why a new mini game/ board game ever week but no new models?

Come on GW. It's almost like you don't want my money.

Think about we GSC players...1 year and half of gakky rules and NO CODEX ON SIGHT! I've entirely stopped my 40k purchases since the meta is SOOO STALE

 Xenomancers wrote:
No new models. Codex release is down to nothing. Good for orkies but this is taking too long anyways.

Where are the sisters of battle...where is ynnari? Where is codex space marines 2.0? Why a new mini game/ board game ever week but no new models?

Come on GW. It's almost like you don't want my money.

We have new Ork models that go on pre-order in the next 24 hours or so, we just got two new character models in Wake the Dead and Tooth and Claw did a rework on the Abberants and added a character to the Genestealer cult.

What are you talking about "no new models"?

It's good that GW is finally slowing down because the game is finished. Keeping up the early-edition pace of releases means having to throw out more low-quality rules bloat for the sake of having more releases on the calendar. And why would you want to have that?

 Peregrine wrote:
It's good that GW is finally slowing down because the game is finished. Keeping up the early-edition pace of releases means having to throw out more low-quality rules bloat for the sake of having more releases on the calendar. And why would you want to have that?

So finished that 4+ armies are still lacking a Codex and are playing demo rules from few years ago

AOS agrees.

auticus wrote:
AOS agrees.

Nope.

It's because they have to maneuver through various systems of releases right now.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
It's good that GW is finally slowing down because the game is finished. Keeping up the early-edition pace of releases means having to throw out more low-quality rules bloat for the sake of having more releases on the calendar. And why would you want to have that?

So finished that 4+ armies are still lacking a Codex and are playing demo rules from few years ago

You mean the indexes that were only released a year and some months ago?

 Peregrine wrote:
It's good that GW is finally slowing down because the game is finished. Keeping up the early-edition pace of releases means having to throw out more low-quality rules bloat for the sake of having more releases on the calendar. And why would you want to have that?

Yes I agree. To an extent I'm happy that things are slowing down. There was a point where I was shelling out for this for my armies every 2 weeks. Now things are nearly done and we can hopefully simmer down to a kit or two a month would be ideal. Barring major releases like sisters

I'd be happy for a little slowdown. My wallet needs rest already.

Wow, seriously, complaining about no new releases?

Ok, fine, if you only play 40k and you only play 2-3 armies, probably you have only received a new codex and nothing else in the past 1 and a half year.
But that does not mean we haven't had new things for 40k.

I'm very eager to the Warhammer Wekeender this 9th of November. I'm more excited for it that for Blizzcon.

It's getting closer to 2 years now and this is kinda different than previous editions. Yea you might of had an old codex but at least you had a completed book (for the most part). Orks, GSC, Sisters, Inquisition, Assassins and Ynarri have a lot less options, depth and GW dragging there feet after the previous break neck speed is probably aggravating to players who enjoy those armies. That's not even touching the metric mess that is FW right now and how some of those armies have really been left to rot.

As for no new models, I kinda agree. Space Marines got the Primaris and we saw death guard get a fairly comprehensive release. Other than that this edition has pretty much been new knights, and maybe a mono pose clam pack when your book came out. There are so many kits that could use a refresh and a lot of factions that haven't got anything in a while.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
So finished that 4+ armies are still lacking a Codex and are playing demo rules from few years ago

You mean orks, which are the next release and likely very soon? I don't care about the not-really-a-faction armies that shouldn't even exist, they're perfect examples of why maintaining a fast release schedule is bad.

Yeah, a slow down is very welcome. It was hard to keep up with all the changes. I'd like a bit of a cool down period for everyone to adjust. Keep up the FAQS and CA, but new releases (for rules at least) need to slow WAY down.
How about we catch up on currently Finecast models that need plastics and Factions without a Codex in 2019?

I certainly remember the Dark ages when there were months between releases and a Codex could stagnate for YEARS, but rapid-fire releases have draw backs too.
There are more speeds than "race track" and "school zone" and GW really needs to hit the balance in between now that they've all but updated every faction including new ones.

-

Personally I hope they don't put the brakes on just yet; just shift gear to AoS - Sigmar has a lot of legacy issues at present from its choppy start. A lot of factions are still shattered into bits that are all but useless outside of alliances. So those need adjusting to either full armies, putting together into allied groups or otherwise setting aside as mercenary factions only (And to be clearly shown as such on the GW store front).

Several armies also need updated Battletomes in line with how they are building and balancing the game now; mostly the early ones like Overlords, Fyreslayers and Slyvannath.


So there's loads of work so a year of AoS quickfire Battletome releases would be most welcome

I'd like to see full steam ahead with some more terrain. Perhaps some form of modular hill system. Or at least some form of ruins for every faction.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

auticus wrote:
AOS agrees.

Nope.

It's because they have to maneuver through various systems of releases right now.

AOS agrees ... that there are many factions / sub-lists that dont' have a proper book yet.

OHH MY GOD! IT'S BEEN A MONTH SINCE A NEW RELEASE! WHATEVER SHALL WE DO!

remember the days before 6th edition guys?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's getting closer to 2 years now and this is kinda different than previous editions. Yea you might of had an old codex but at least you had a completed book (for the most part). Orks, GSC, Sisters, Inquisition, Assassins and Ynarri have a lot less options, depth and GW dragging there feet after the previous break neck speed is probably aggravating to players who enjoy those armies. That's not even touching the metric mess that is FW right now and how some of those armies have really been left to rot.

If by closer to 2 years you mean 1 year and 4 months as of literally yesterday. Ain't close at all.

Orks are getting a boatload of new kits in the next few weeks, a new codex, both of which were already announced and previewed (or being previewed). Sisters are getting an entire plastic range. Ynarri are competitively amazing, and received their kits just before 8th. Same with Inquisition, but neither it nor Assassins are important in any way.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
As for no new models, I kinda agree. Space Marines got the Primaris and we saw death guard get a fairly comprehensive release. Other than that this edition has pretty much been new knights, and maybe a mono pose clam pack when your book came out. There are so many kits that could use a refresh and a lot of factions that haven't got anything in a while.

So far since Dark Imperium went up for preorder, we've had massive new launches for Primaris and Death Guard that spanned months, big releases for Knights and Custodes, Orks coming with their own massive release, and terrain kits back in the early part of the year to round it all out - all just for 40k. That's not including massive releases for AoS and a veritable fethton of specialist game releases that continue to this day.

If you're bored with the current GW release schedule, then maybe you have to take a look at why your tastes are so limited and if wargaming in this ecosystem is really where you should spend your hobby time and dollars.

I've loved the Terrain GW has put out, even if it is a bit pricey and kill team is amazing.

What has me kinda meh I guess isn't so much the volume of what is released so much as GW's design push towards increasingly sameness with a lot of the releases, particularly with characters. Take my main army, Space Marines

Compared to the older marine characters, who had so many options and potential for making unique minis via kit bashing, the newer clam packs are just kinda meh. Most of them don't even have options, it's just here is your Librarian, he has a sword and a bolt pistol. Want to take any upgrades or maybe build him a different way, to bad. I feel like more and more flavor is being lost which is a shame cause things like pistol, melee and combi weapons are finally decent to good again.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No new models. Codex release is down to nothing. Good for orkies but this is taking too long anyways.

Where are the sisters of battle...where is ynnari? Where is codex space marines 2.0? Why a new mini game/ board game ever week but no new models?

Come on GW. It's almost like you don't want my money.

We have new Ork models that go on pre-order in the next 24 hours or so, we just got two new character models in Wake the Dead and Tooth and Claw did a rework on the Abberants and added a character to the Genestealer cult.

What are you talking about "no new models"?

By "no new models" he means "no new Space Marine models".

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No new models. Codex release is down to nothing. Good for orkies but this is taking too long anyways.

Where are the sisters of battle...where is ynnari? Where is codex space marines 2.0? Why a new mini game/ board game ever week but no new models?

Come on GW. It's almost like you don't want my money.

We have new Ork models that go on pre-order in the next 24 hours or so, we just got two new character models in Wake the Dead and Tooth and Claw did a rework on the Abberants and added a character to the Genestealer cult.

What are you talking about "no new models"?

By "no new models" he means "no new Space Marine models".

Tooth & Claw and Wake The Dead each had one new Space Marine model even!

...Damn, you're absolutely right. Xeno's just a troll, I guess.

I don't get how anyone could be bored, how many games against how many different kinds of armies does one have time to get in over the course of a couple of months...? If this were a videogame where each match was 15-20 minutes and typical players were playing a dozen games a week, ok, but when your average player is only getting in a couple of games a month, and only the most active are getting in 2-3 games a week, it's hard to get bored too quickly just because new release slowed over a couple of months. It's not like the days of 4E or 5E where we'd get one or two releases a year and thats it.

Also, since when were we expecting a Space Marine 2.0 codex? Is this new?

 Vaktathi wrote:

Also, since when were we expecting a Space Marine 2.0 codex? Is this new?

There are semi-reliable rumours that Primaris Wave 2 isn't far off. It's not too far fetched based on previous editions to suspect that may mean a new version of the Codex.

It's far from confirmed though.

I don't think he's bored with the game itself. I know I'm not between kill team and normal 40k I'm having a ton of fun playing. I relate though to not feeling a lot of models that GW has put out. I have all the space marines I could ever want or need and for various reasons don't like Primaris Marines. I just finished up my Cadian army this year and GW has squatted most of the other IG lines I'd be interested in.

I have a moderate Ad Mech army that I might flesh out a bit more, and was working on a decent sized Inquisition squad before GW blew them up. I had wanted to get a grey knights army but I'm not spending money for the games current worse army.

The other two armies I would want to collect are Chaos space Marines, but a lot of those kits are ancient and haven't aged well, so that has me on the fence. The other is Sisters which is a year away.

Most of my purchases have been terrain because most of what GW has released lately is either new marines or even bigger knights which I have no interest in. My friends all play xenos armies so if I want to get a game in as Eldar, Tau or Ork, I can just borrow their stuff.

There a rumour going round that GW isn't the only game in town

So bored with people thinking GW exists to cater to their personal whims right now.

Look at it this way;
You know all that time spent analyzing, dissecting, & bitching about this/that/etc new thing? Now you can squeeze in a few games & catch up on whatever's sitting around in your modeling/paint queue.

At least until the Orks arrive.

It just feels so stale - plus nothing to look forward to. Orks are about the only army I don't wish to start ever. Though it's insane they have had to wait this long for rules...Why aren't sisters coming out right after? We've already waited forever for them.

I need new building projects to distract from my painting projects.

Know what I would buy immediately?
Plastic aspect warriors
New gardian kits
new primaris vehical or flyer
new primaris heavy weapons squad
If IG went to a new more modern looking battle tank look for their armor I'd instantly be hooked.
Anything Ynnari I'm in
Sisters - will buy an entire army
New tau units - Instant buy...

Seriously...Am I the only one that's been waiting multiple years of my life to have these things in exchange for my money?

Sisters aren't coming out right after because GW did not intend to reboot the army until after the survey results. They were going to get a ho hum standard update with no new models until the survey results came in and GW had to face the raw statistics of how many of their customers genuinely want to see new Sisters models.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So bored with people thinking GW exists to cater to their personal whims right now.

Agreed.
Ahh greed.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It just feels so stale - plus nothing to look forward to. Orks are about the only army I don't wish to start ever. Though it's
I need new building projects to distract from my painting projects.

You need a sense of perspective.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It just feels so stale - plus nothing to look forward to. Orks are about the only army I don't wish to start ever. Though it's
I need new building projects to distract from my painting projects.

You need a sense of perspective.

What do you mean? I enjoy building new models. Are you saying I should stop wanting to do what I enjoy?

Im just waiting for GW to actually balance close combat armies to balanced in a semi competetive enviroment.... But im not holding my breath by any means.

This edition...so many opportunities to fix general balance, but nothing is being done execpt shifting tournament meta :(

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It just feels so stale - plus nothing to look forward to. Orks are about the only army I don't wish to start ever. Though it's
I need new building projects to distract from my painting projects.

You need a sense of perspective.

What do you mean? I enjoy building new models. Are you saying I should stop wanting to do what I enjoy?

He means that you should possibly look at some Foregeworld or another army/game or finish up what you've got or expand some of your squads or such. Since GW itself isn't slowing down much; they've just been releasing more than marines and 40K stuff as of late. Plus go back2 years and this rate of updates that GW has given us would be unheard of - in fact it was a total dream not one gamer really thought would ever really happen!

Indexes at LAUNCH of a new edition - Nearly the entire game with codex released within a 2 year period - heck you would wait 3 or 4 years for your army to get attention without any guarantee that you'd see a new codex before another new game edition. Plus GW has been releasing new armies, new games, new models the whole time.

They are going at a crazy speed!

I guess people with good codex are all in for a slow down, the fewer changes and the fewer new stuff, the longer they can enjoy their armies, and their builds.

On the other side of the argument are people that did not get a new codex yet, or their codex is like the GK one. I can't wait for GW to start a new cycle, nerf all the bad armies and finally make GK good. From what I have been told they were good back in the past, so it is not like non one working at GW can't write a good GK codex.

Honestly I expected the second Primaris wave by now. Then again it's almost the holiday season...

But basically I've just been catching up on painting since I don't have to build things now. Well I mean I have things I can build but I cant fit them in lists, so they sit till a load out I don't have built become "usable"

Seriously...Am I the only one that's been waiting multiple years of my life to have these things in exchange for my money?

No. Anyone who’s played for a while has been frustrated at incomplete ranges, decades between updates etc. etc. etc.

But the sky is not falling, and we’re getting so much good stuff lately. Waiting one year is not ‘insane’ compared to previous editions. Sisters are getting an entirely new range... gird your wallet for next year. We have an entire Genestealer Cult range out of the blue not so very long ago.

That the GW range of factions is too big for them to release new stuff for your favourite army every month is just something you have to live with. The 24-hr news cycle and forum culture make minutes seem like years, but we really are getting more good stuff at a faster speed than ever it seems. If it’s not what you (general collective you not aimed at anyone) personally wanted or at a speed you find personally acceptable then eh, GW aren’t beholden to anyone and their sales are going gangbusters... they’re doing more right than wrong, clearly.

Knights duked so hard on the meta that it's problematic. We have a very stale meta because knights are gating a significant number of really cool lists.

Genestealer cults + Tyranids + Guard is absolutely viable if you don't encounter Knights. As an example. The new models are solid for GSC.

Can I ask how long you've been in the hobby? I've never seen GW with a release rate like this, in over 20 years of being a customer. Only thing I will fault though - an expansion in armies. When they had six armies, you got releases far more often. Now, the very existence of 25+ factions and lines of models means that you'll more or less never see a release except every couple of years. That, to me, is a negative.

I'd rather see 12 factions and a consistent release for each every month or two, instead of the "blitz of kits" each army gets every 2-3 years (unless you're Eldar). Regardless, the release pace has been staggering from ole Gee-Dubs.

 Elbows wrote:
Can I ask how long you've been in the hobby? I've never seen GW with a release rate like this, in over 20 years of being a customer. Only thing I will fault though - an expansion in armies. When they had six armies, you got releases far more often. Now, the very existence of 25+ factions and lines of models means that you'll more or less never see a release except every couple of years. That, to me, is a negative.

I'd rather see 12 factions and a consistent release for each every month or two, instead of the "blitz of kits" each army gets every 2-3 years (unless you're Eldar). Regardless, the release pace has been staggering from ole Gee-Dubs.

I know this probably wasn't directed at me but this will be my 12th year. While I love that some of the smaller ranges are getting models and table top time, I agree that does bog things down. And yea I really wish they would redo the aspect warriors and phoinix lords, many of them haven't aged well and fine cast is a meh material.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It just feels so stale - plus nothing to look forward to. Orks are about the only army I don't wish to start ever. Though it's
I need new building projects to distract from my painting projects.

You need a sense of perspective.

What do you mean? I enjoy building new models. Are you saying I should stop wanting to do what I enjoy?

I mean that existence precedes essence.

We've all hit a hobby wall not of our own making. Some of us figure out how to get around, over or under the wall; some people sit down, complain and say its someone else's job to knock the wall down.

I find this topic quite amusing.

I want a codex, I want new minis...etc.

Spare a thought for R&H players, myself on a very casual basis, who not only had their army range canned but a crap index nerfed on top.

Then start complaining...perspective people.

 Elbows wrote:
Can I ask how long you've been in the hobby? I've never seen GW with a release rate like this, in over 20 years of being a customer. Only thing I will fault though - an expansion in armies. When they had six armies, you got releases far more often. Now, the very existence of 25+ factions and lines of models means that you'll more or less never see a release except every couple of years. That, to me, is a negative.

I'd rather see 12 factions and a consistent release for each every month or two, instead of the "blitz of kits" each army gets every 2-3 years (unless you're Eldar). Regardless, the release pace has been staggering from ole Gee-Dubs.

You know, this is probably the prime reason that many players are feeling left out in recent years. There might be a swathe of releases coming out for certain armies, but if you don't collect that army, or have no interest in that army, then chances are you're going to be feeling left out wondering when "your turn" might be. And with the release schedule as it is now, it wouldn't surprise me if that has exacerbated this problem, and Games Workshop would be best trying to find a solution to the issue. Making more sub-factions as stand alone codexes may be a good way to make money in the short term, but it's not at all sustainable, and it's time that Games Workshop start making decisions on how they want to handle this.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It just feels so stale - plus nothing to look forward to. Orks are about the only army I don't wish to start ever. Though it's
I need new building projects to distract from my painting projects.

You need a sense of perspective.

What do you mean? I enjoy building new models. Are you saying I should stop wanting to do what I enjoy?

I mean that existence precedes essence.

We've all hit a hobby wall not of our own making. Some of us figure out how to get around, over or under the wall; some people sit down, complain and say its someone else's job to knock the wall down.

You know - I appreciate the deep ideas you are bringing up here. I really do. I've considered learning how to make my own models but...it seems like a pretty big thing to invest time into.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Can I ask how long you've been in the hobby? I've never seen GW with a release rate like this, in over 20 years of being a customer. Only thing I will fault though - an expansion in armies. When they had six armies, you got releases far more often. Now, the very existence of 25+ factions and lines of models means that you'll more or less never see a release except every couple of years. That, to me, is a negative.

I'd rather see 12 factions and a consistent release for each every month or two, instead of the "blitz of kits" each army gets every 2-3 years (unless you're Eldar). Regardless, the release pace has been staggering from ole Gee-Dubs.

Played most of 5th edition - skipped most of 6th - played all 7th. The end of 7th saw some unprecedented stuff - the rate of release was amazing. Loved it. It's probably the main reason I stuck around for 8th. Plus I agree - this isn't uncommon from GW I just thought they turned over a new leaf and decided to actually start running a company better.

You do know that the sister trial list will be out in about 2 months right?

The hyperbole is amazing. Waiting years for new primaris? They haven't even been out for "years". Last new primaris model to come out was tooth and claw... like 2 months ago.
Has it always been like this? Back in the 90's did people complain if it was more than a few months since their army got an update?

If there's one problem with 40k, it's that Space Marines players don't get enough new model releases.

meleti wrote:
If there's one problem with 40k, it's that Space Marines players don't get enough new model releases.

I hope this is a sarcastic post. I play Marines, and I don't want new releases, I want better rules. The Marine line doesn't NEED anything, it just needs a rules update to get it back in line with the newer books.

I wish they would have not made Primaris, and spent that time on rules writing, and to release updated/new models for the other factions who desperately need them.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

meleti wrote:
If there's one problem with 40k, it's that Space Marines players don't get enough new model releases.

I hope this is a sarcastic post. I play Marines, and I don't want new releases, I want better rules. The Marine line doesn't NEED anything, it just needs a rules update to get it back in line with the newer books.

I wish they would have not made Primaris, and spent that time on rules writing, and to release updated/new models for the other factions who desperately need them.

This so much. I have been a loyalist marine player since day one and I don't want new models, and I didn't want the Primaris. The only kit I kinda want recut/redone is scouts. What I want is GW to go back to the older existing lines and refresh/ update some of the older kits. There are a ton of kits/ lines/ factions that have not gotten much for a few years especially infantry models and older characters. That combined with GW increasingly cutting options even among existing kits is just annoying.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

meleti wrote:
If there's one problem with 40k, it's that Space Marines players don't get enough new model releases.

I hope this is a sarcastic post. I play Marines, and I don't want new releases, I want better rules. The Marine line doesn't NEED anything, it just needs a rules update to get it back in line with the newer books.

I wish they would have not made Primaris, and spent that time on rules writing, and to release updated/new models for the other factions who desperately need them.

I want standardized size to models. Few years away from the hobby, I come back and i was like "Cool!Primaris Marines!". Then I take a look at the models, and my OCD alarms kicked off all over the place.

I DID hear that Primaris Rhino's are going to be released soon. I'm looking forward to that. I'm going to buy Primaris Rhino's for my regular marines

It is definitely safe to assume a Primaris 2nd wave at some point in the next 12 months.

The GW community is so spoilt these days, a couple of weeks of "inactivity" and people are sharpening pitchforks already? Shall we go back to the days of old where a codex was released every 6 months? Where factions would go entire editions (sometimes several) before even a sniff of an updated codex.

In 13 months we've had 20 40k codexes release, not even taking into account all the boxsets and revival of speciality games and AOS.

Stay classy Dakka...

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I wish they would have not made Primaris, and spent that time on rules writing, and to release updated/new models for the other factions who desperately need them.

You expect an awful lot out of about 20 minutes of effort....

I am not at all bored with their releases. We have 6 new ork vehicles coming out in the next few weeks and 2 exclusive minis coming out this Saturday. Honestly it's hard to not buy models for armies I don't have.

Primaris are reason why I postponed collecting Dark Angels. IMO primaris marines and normal marines do not look good together. I like some primaris models but RW has any primaris unit. They should get primaris land speeders.

Or if we could know that original marines prevails... Maybe I should start to collect mechanicus instead.

The last thing this game needs is even more Space Marine units/models... the one thing I'm bored by is a new Space Marine every month. It's also the one thing that hasn't changed with "new GW". 40K is still a game about Space Marines fighting against some NPC races.
Other than that there are a lot of interesting things. Orks, terrain, Kill Team, that Eldar box, Chapter approved is coming in 3 months, Genestealers should be shortly after Orks.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

meleti wrote:
If there's one problem with 40k, it's that Space Marines players don't get enough new model releases.

I hope this is a sarcastic post. I play Marines, and I don't want new releases, I want better rules. The Marine line doesn't NEED anything, it just needs a rules update to get it back in line with the newer books.

I wish they would have not made Primaris, and spent that time on rules writing, and to release updated/new models for the other factions who desperately need them.

I don't think it's very reasonable to say the Primaris release has actually delayed any releases for other factions... 2018 has seen new or updated models for Nurgle, Necrons, Eldar, Imperial Knights, Orks, Genestealer Cults... probably a couple more I'm forgetting. Like, I detest loyalist Marines and groan every time I see a new release for them but it's not really fair to claim the rest of us aren't getting anything.

Darsath wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Can I ask how long you've been in the hobby? I've never seen GW with a release rate like this, in over 20 years of being a customer. Only thing I will fault though - an expansion in armies. When they had six armies, you got releases far more often. Now, the very existence of 25+ factions and lines of models means that you'll more or less never see a release except every couple of years. That, to me, is a negative.

I'd rather see 12 factions and a consistent release for each every month or two, instead of the "blitz of kits" each army gets every 2-3 years (unless you're Eldar). Regardless, the release pace has been staggering from ole Gee-Dubs.

You know, this is probably the prime reason that many players are feeling left out in recent years. There might be a swathe of releases coming out for certain armies, but if you don't collect that army, or have no interest in that army, then chances are you're going to be feeling left out wondering when "your turn" might be. And with the release schedule as it is now, it wouldn't surprise me if that has exacerbated this problem, and Games Workshop would be best trying to find a solution to the issue. Making more sub-factions as stand alone codexes may be a good way to make money in the short term, but it's not at all sustainable, and it's time that Games Workshop start making decisions on how they want to handle this.

They did exactly that, about 3 editions ago (but for some reason people only complain now).
GW has consolidated the factions into bigger factions, so that there are bigger chances that you will get interested in a new release, we call it "souping".

Necrons and Eldar have had.... one model(?) this year. I wouldn't include them in factions that have got stuff.

But still you probably have sisters, slaanesh and primaris on the horizon.

Tyel wrote:
Necrons and Eldar have had.... one model(?) this year. I wouldn't include them in factions that have got stuff.

But still you probably have sisters, slaanesh and primaris on the horizon.

It not like you can even get the new Cryptek now. I'd buy one if I could.

I don't care for new models as long as they would balance out the rules for the ones they have available.

I'll take a good, balanced game over an abundance of useless new models any day of the week.

But yeah... any sane person would probably have rage quit by now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Where are the sisters of battle...where is ynnari? Where is codex space marines 2.0?

1) Next year.
2) Last year.
3) Waiting on the next wave of primaris models.

I wish AoS had 40k's release rate. 40k has had about the same amount of codexes released so far for 8th as AoS since launch. With both being around 20ish (I'm not including indexs or AOS legacy rules). But 40k was in June 2017 and AoS was in 2015. I know some of you, or maybe a lot, don't like AoS. But some people do. And IMHO neglect is what killed the old WHFB.

20ish releases in a year. Wow. We have never had a release rate that fast before.

Tygre wrote:
I wish AoS had 40k's release rate. 40k has had about the same amount of codexes released so far for 8th as AoS since launch. With both being around 20ish (I'm not including indexs or AOS legacy rules). But 40k was in June 2017 and AoS was in 2015. I know some of you, or maybe a lot, don't like AoS. But some people do. And IMHO neglect is what killed the old WHFB.

20ish releases in a year. Wow. We have never had a release rate that fast before.

WHFB wasn't really neglected. Or at least GW were continuing to update armies at a rate of about 3-4 per year as it had done for a decade. The problem was that with such a large roster this meant armies were going 4 years without anything new and that's a long time. (Or in the case of certain factions, far longer - insert Bret moaning here).

This was compounded by zero balance updates and the - possibly heretical claim - that 8th edition's rules were just not that great. I had some good times when two casual armies deliberately blundered into each other, and you forged a narrative to generate some laughs - but the moment people started optimising lists, or strategies the whole thing collapsed. "I'm 6 dicing dwellers" etc wasn't fun.

There was also the fact that GW faced proper competition from X-Wing, Warmachine 2.0 etc. Factions in these games seemed to be getting updated every 6 months rather than every 6 years and this was a lot more exciting. (Admittedly I think model/rules bloat eventually harmed them both - especially Warmahordes, much like it caused problems for GW, but ymmv).

I think the real issue for 40k is not the model releases - but that the FAQ update was a major let down. I was hoping for something to shake up the meta because while Soup domination isn't yet as dull as 7th's, its really going that way. I was hoping it would start a new "season" for want of a better word - and send people back to the drawing board in the way limiting deep striking and the rule of 3 did before. Instead the crap stuff remained crap, and some of the good stuff got a slight knock.

But hey, maybe Chapter Approved will act like a Codex 2.0 for most factions in the game.
Unfortunately I'm not betting on it.

Tyel wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I wish AoS had 40k's release rate. 40k has had about the same amount of codexes released so far for 8th as AoS since launch. With both being around 20ish (I'm not including indexs or AOS legacy rules). But 40k was in June 2017 and AoS was in 2015. I know some of you, or maybe a lot, don't like AoS. But some people do. And IMHO neglect is what killed the old WHFB.

20ish releases in a year. Wow. We have never had a release rate that fast before.

WHFB wasn't really neglected. Or at least GW were continuing to update armies at a rate of about 3-4 per year as it had done for a decade. The problem was that with such a large roster this meant armies were going 4 years without anything new and that's a long time. (Or in the case of certain factions, far longer - insert Bret moaning here).

This was compounded by zero balance updates and the - possibly heretical claim - that 8th edition's rules were just not that great. I had some good times when two casual armies deliberately blundered into each other, and you forged a narrative to generate some laughs - but the moment people started optimising lists, or strategies the whole thing collapsed. "I'm 6 dicing dwellers" etc wasn't fun.

There was also the fact that GW faced proper competition from X-Wing, Warmachine 2.0 etc. Factions in these games seemed to be getting updated every 6 months rather than every 6 years and this was a lot more exciting. (Admittedly I think model/rules bloat eventually harmed them both - especially Warmahordes, much like it caused problems for GW, but ymmv).

I think the real issue for 40k is not the model releases - but that the FAQ update was a major let down. I was hoping for something to shake up the meta because while Soup domination isn't yet as dull as 7th's, its really going that way. I was hoping it would start a new "season" for want of a better word - and send people back to the drawing board in the way limiting deep striking and the rule of 3 did before. Instead the crap stuff remained crap, and some of the good stuff got a slight knock.

But hey, maybe Chapter Approved will act like a Codex 2.0 for most factions in the game.
Unfortunately I'm not betting on it.

The time between now and the release of Chapter Approved is longer than some people seem to think, so I do think that most people will be sick of the stale state the game is in by then. Hopefully Chapter Approved has a fair few large changes in it to really make the game more interesting, because chances are it'll be too late to just wait to do this next year.

I simply see this issue as personal burnout, and not anything on GW's part.

You can't stay enthused about one thing indefinitely. You'll get bored and want something different. If you're feeling that, play something else for a while. It'll come back around.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No new models. Codex release is down to nothing. Good for orkies but this is taking too long anyways.

Where are the sisters of battle...where is ynnari? Where is codex space marines 2.0? Why a new mini game/ board game ever week but no new models?

Come on GW. It's almost like you don't want my money.

They seem to be roughly apace. July 2018 was the only month without at least one Codex release.

June 2017 - Indexes
July 2017 - Marines
August 2017 - Chaos Marines, Grey Knights
September 2017 - Death Guard, Mechanicus
October 2017 - Astra Militarum, Craftworlds
November 2017 - Tyranids
December 2017 - Blood Angels, Dark Angels
January 2018 - Custodes, Demons
February 2018 - Thousand Sons
March 2018 - Tau, Necrons
April 2018 - Drukhari
May 2018 - Deathwatch, Harlequins
June 2018 - Imperial Knights
July 2018 - Times of Sorrow
August 2018 - Space Wolves
September 2018 - Elucidian Starstriders, Gellerpox Infected
October 2018 - Orks [?]
November 2018 - Genestealer Cults [?]

I'm sure there will be something big to push Christmas sales as well.

At any rate, I'm still got enough of a painting queue to last the winter. Should keep me busy till Primaris 2.0 or Sisters are out.

 Stux wrote:
I simply see this issue as personal burnout, and not anything on GW's part.

You can't stay enthused about one thing indefinitely. You'll get bored and want something different. If you're feeling that, play something else for a while. It'll come back around.

Not sure about the others but I know I'm burned out from the game because of how 8th edition plays and the general lack of fun that I experience in 8th. Whenever I get to play a game of 7th I have a ton of fun but sadly it's difficult to get people to play 7th these days.

 Stux wrote:
I simply see this issue as personal burnout, and not anything on GW's part.

You can't stay enthused about one thing indefinitely. You'll get bored and want something different. If you're feeling that, play something else for a while. It'll come back around.

Ok I started a few months after my friends. We play in the same place against each other, and other people around here. If I feel burned out, they should feel the same. Oddly enough, it does not seem the case for some people. Those that play eldar feel just fine, and felt fine when they started. Same with the guy who plays IG soups. On the other hand the one that started BA quit 3 months ago, the one that played primaris sm and then DW quit too. I would quit too, but unlike the BA/DW player, I did not get a few months of fun playing the lists.

As the play something else, how do you play something else with a GK list? The primaris player here, could switch to DW, there is no other faction that looks like GK.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I simply see this issue as personal burnout, and not anything on GW's part.

You can't stay enthused about one thing indefinitely. You'll get bored and want something different. If you're feeling that, play something else for a while. It'll come back around.

Ok I started a few months after my friends. We play in the same place against each other, and other people around here. If I feel burned out, they should feel the same. Oddly enough, it does not seem the case for some people. Those that play eldar feel just fine, and felt fine when they started. Same with the guy who plays IG soups. On the other hand the one that started BA quit 3 months ago, the one that played primaris sm and then DW quit too. I would quit too, but unlike the BA/DW player, I did not get a few months of fun playing the lists.

As the play something else, how do you play something else with a GK list? The primaris player here, could switch to DW, there is no other faction that looks like GK.

I think he means play a different game. Something other than 40k or Games Workshop related. Check out the competition and see if anything interests you if 40k isn't quite doing it for you atm.

Wow this some 1st world problems right here. We've just got Big faq and CA coming out, let all the codex's get theirs then ask for new gak.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I simply see this issue as personal burnout, and not anything on GW's part.

You can't stay enthused about one thing indefinitely. You'll get bored and want something different. If you're feeling that, play something else for a while. It'll come back around.

Ok I started a few months after my friends. We play in the same place against each other, and other people around here. If I feel burned out, they should feel the same. Oddly enough, it does not seem the case for some people. Those that play eldar feel just fine, and felt fine when they started. Same with the guy who plays IG soups. On the other hand the one that started BA quit 3 months ago, the one that played primaris sm and then DW quit too. I would quit too, but unlike the BA/DW player, I did not get a few months of fun playing the lists.

As the play something else, how do you play something else with a GK list? The primaris player here, could switch to DW, there is no other faction that looks like GK.

As a SoB/Inquisition player I get the fatigue at seeing so much but seeing you're own army stagnant. And while I agree that it's part of the Internet/news culture, I think there are a few things that have been mentioned that are worth trying. The only new(?) thing I can think of to suggest is see if anyone is interested in games of Kill Team.

I really don't think GW is doing anything wrong, but I'm personally in waiting mode too. The Primaris line feels incomplete, and I already have most of the stuff that has been released thus far, and I'm not in hurry of getting more of the same. The Rogue Trader thing seemed awesome, but that is even more incomplete faction, I'm waiting to see whether they get a proper release that allows at least some customisation. My Eldar alliance project has stalled, as I'm waiting to see the eventual fate of the Ynnari, and of course (like most people) I'm waiting for the SoB.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Wow this some 1st world problems right here. We've just got Big faq and CA coming out, let all the codex's get theirs then ask for new gak.

The big faq was pathetic. We waited 6 months for a few rules that could have been written up in 6 minutes. Seriously. Why do you expect so little?
Last CA was also a joke. probably 300 entries or more need balancing and they adjusted like 10. Plus adjusted a few models that didn't need adjusting - like warlocks.

Anyways - unless you count new BA and DA primaris kits - which are basically not even new kits. We've had practically no new models for about 1 1/2 years. I mean rouge trades characters...who the heck cares? That is what I am mostly depressed about. You know writing codex does not prevent them from producing models right?

Darsath wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I simply see this issue as personal burnout, and not anything on GW's part.

You can't stay enthused about one thing indefinitely. You'll get bored and want something different. If you're feeling that, play something else for a while. It'll come back around.

Ok I started a few months after my friends. We play in the same place against each other, and other people around here. If I feel burned out, they should feel the same. Oddly enough, it does not seem the case for some people. Those that play eldar feel just fine, and felt fine when they started. Same with the guy who plays IG soups. On the other hand the one that started BA quit 3 months ago, the one that played primaris sm and then DW quit too. I would quit too, but unlike the BA/DW player, I did not get a few months of fun playing the lists.

As the play something else, how do you play something else with a GK list? The primaris player here, could switch to DW, there is no other faction that looks like GK.

I think he means play a different game. Something other than 40k or Games Workshop related. Check out the competition and see if anything interests you if 40k isn't quite doing it for you atm.

Bingo!

Karol, everyone has different tolerances for these things. And it's also affected by other things going on in your life. How positive we feel about different aspects of our lives is incredibly complex, so no basically. Just because you started at the same time doesn't mean you will burn out at the same time.

If your hobby is causing you more stress than joy, for whatever reason, you need to step away from that hobby for a while.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Seriously...Am I the only one that's been waiting multiple years of my life to have these things in exchange for my money?

I've been waiting 18 years for GW to update my IG regiment. To make matters worse they just axed every regiment model line except Catachans/Cadia. Perhaps they forgot they just exploded Cadia?

 Xenomancers wrote:
If IG went to a new more modern looking battle tank look for their armor I'd instantly be hooked.

Careful what you wish for. Have you seen the Taurox or the new ork vehicles? I think whomever is designing does an absolutely fantastic job with infantry. Vehicles on the other hand...they should stop.

 Stux wrote:

Darsath wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I simply see this issue as personal burnout, and not anything on GW's part.

You can't stay enthused about one thing indefinitely. You'll get bored and want something different. If you're feeling that, play something else for a while. It'll come back around.

Ok I started a few months after my friends. We play in the same place against each other, and other people around here. If I feel burned out, they should feel the same. Oddly enough, it does not seem the case for some people. Those that play eldar feel just fine, and felt fine when they started. Same with the guy who plays IG soups. On the other hand the one that started BA quit 3 months ago, the one that played primaris sm and then DW quit too. I would quit too, but unlike the BA/DW player, I did not get a few months of fun playing the lists.

As the play something else, how do you play something else with a GK list? The primaris player here, could switch to DW, there is no other faction that looks like GK.

I think he means play a different game. Something other than 40k or Games Workshop related. Check out the competition and see if anything interests you if 40k isn't quite doing it for you atm.

Bingo!

Karol, everyone has different tolerances for these things. And it's also affected by other things going on in your life. How positive we feel about different aspects of our lives is incredibly complex, so no basically. Just because you started at the same time doesn't mean you will burn out at the same time.

If your hobby is causing you more stress than joy, for whatever reason, you need to step away from that hobby for a while.

And sometimes its not just a case of stepping away from GW and moving to another wargame; but perhaps stepping away from wargames miniatures and models totally and trying something else. Football; nature walking; photography; self defence; art; reading; writing; juggling; smithing; crafting; swordplay; knitting etc.....

It's perfectly normal to get burnout and it can strike with little to no warning and sometimes has nothing to do with the hobby and can be influenced by factors totally outside of it. It's natural and normal and best to move on and try something else or focus on life for a bit. Then come back refreshed and ready.
The ones that doggedly hang on can often get very irate, irritable and stressy as the hobby stops being fun to them and becomes a chore/duty/obligation and they can get very bitter at others.

It can even happen with social groups - I've seen more than a few people outgrow a forum who are convinced everyone else is at fault and will scream and cry and cause all kinds of trouble against others or other groups (new people are often a fond target). When in truth they've just developed beyond the forum and have outgrown it and are best to move on. No one is at fault, its just natural normal change.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If IG went to a new more modern looking battle tank look for their armor I'd instantly be hooked.

Oh, I missed this bit. Hell no! The Cadians already look too modern. The Guard needs to be more of a weirdly steampunkish anachronism mess, not less. Vostroyans were the right direction.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Seriously...Am I the only one that's been waiting multiple years of my life to have these things in exchange for my money?

I've been waiting 18 years for GW to update my IG regiment. To make matters worse they just axed every regiment model line except Catachans/Cadia. Perhaps they forgot they just exploded Cadia?

 Xenomancers wrote:
If IG went to a new more modern looking battle tank look for their armor I'd instantly be hooked.

Careful what you wish for. Have you seen the Taurox or the new ork vehicles? I think whomever is designing does an absolutely fantastic job with infantry. Vehicles on the other hand...they should stop.

Well then - I am sure you have looked into 3rd party models for this - found some really awesome looking stuff out there. Russ that look like Abrams or challenger tanks - they look good. Meanwhile - GW producing rouge trade character kits that no one wants and waiting to conduct polls to find out if people want sisters armies.

Yea, gonna break with you on the above. I love that IG is a throw back to everything WW1 to the mid 80s.

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If IG went to a new more modern looking battle tank look for their armor I'd instantly be hooked.

Oh, I missed this bit. Hell no! The Cadians already look too modern. The Guard needs to be more of a weirdly steampunkish anachronism mess, not less. Vostroyans were the right direction.

IDK man. If you look at tank history - it only took about 30 years to go from WW1 tanks to modern looking battle tanks. I see no reason why IG tanks should still look like WW1 tanks.

Chimera has a modern look - It looks like a Warrior IFV to me. Valkeries look super futuristic. Russ just seem so behind the times. I hate the way they look.

This is the future of IG Tanks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Tank
*

I agree that they should keep the whole mad-ww1 style to them. Going modern would totally destroy their appeal. IG are about big tanks with bulky guns and turrets and all sorts of stuff like that. If you want a sleek efficient modern (Scifi) army then go for Eldar or Tau.



*For added power it should be equipped with rocket boosters on the main wheels (just like the mobile bomb from Dad's army)

 Xenomancers wrote:

IDK man. If you look at tank history - it only took about 30 years to go from WW1 tanks to modern looking battle tanks. I see no reason why IG tanks should still look like WW1 tanks.

Yeah, 40K so doesn't work like that...

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IDK man. If you look at tank history - it only took about 30 years to go from WW1 tanks to modern looking battle tanks. I see no reason why IG tanks should still look like WW1 tanks.

Yeah, 40K so doesn't work like that...

The dudes have laser weapons - they shouldn't be using the first tank in history as a base for their armored core. These are actually earthlings here.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The dudes have laser weapons - they shouldn't be using the first tank in history as a base for their armored core. These are actually earthlings here.

Just no. Nothing in this is supposed to make sense. House-sized walking battle robots don't make sense either. Guard aesthetic is WWI/WWII inspired, the more more modern aesthetic ques go to the Marines (now thankfully with some added grav flavour.) The end.

Dudes armed with lasers backed up by tanks with gun turrets too small to actually fit crew and led by dudes wielding chainsword saws in a universe where melee combat is somehow effective despite automatic weapons and orbital bombardment are in liberal use, 40k makes no sense in a ton of ways

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IDK man. If you look at tank history - it only took about 30 years to go from WW1 tanks to modern looking battle tanks. I see no reason why IG tanks should still look like WW1 tanks.

Yeah, 40K so doesn't work like that...

The dudes have laser weapons - they shouldn't be using the first tank in history as a base for their armored core. These are actually earthlings here.

The setting isn't supposed to make sense or be super modern. The Russ and other guard vehicles being a throw back is a deliberate choice and one that give IG character. It's a WW1 tank that can take down hover craft and run on wood if need be. It's awesome but impractical which is the definition of 40k.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Dudes armed with lasers backed up by tanks with gun turrets too small to actually fit crew and led by dudes wielding chainsword saws in a universe where melee combat is somehow effective despite automatic weapons and orbital bombardment are in liberal use, 40k makes no sense in a ton of ways

Whats wrong with making IG tanks look like actual functional tanks? I assure you. Design a new russ that looks more like an Abrams/challenger tank and it will sell tons.

To me - IG represent modern military - the more they look like modern military the better.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Dudes armed with lasers backed up by tanks with gun turrets too small to actually fit crew and led by dudes wielding chainsword saws in a universe where melee combat is somehow effective despite automatic weapons and orbital bombardment are in liberal use, 40k makes no sense in a ton of ways

Whats wrong with making IG tanks look like actual functional tanks? I assure you. Design a new russ that looks more like an Abrams/challenger tank and it will sell tons.

To me - IG represent modern military - the more they look like modern military the better.

Just no! Nothing could be more boring. Modern military is boring as feth. Sure, IG could use new tanks, but not modern inspired ones.


Somethink like this Keith Thompson concept art would be cool and fitting.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Dudes armed with lasers backed up by tanks with gun turrets too small to actually fit crew and led by dudes wielding chainsword saws in a universe where melee combat is somehow effective despite automatic weapons and orbital bombardment are in liberal use, 40k makes no sense in a ton of ways

Whats wrong with making IG tanks look like actual functional tanks? I assure you. Design a new russ that looks more like an Abrams/challenger tank and it will sell tons.

To me - IG represent modern military - the more they look like modern military the better.

Well, the setting has always been rather anachronistic. Space Marine armor is patterned far more off knightly medieval plate than modern body armor for instance. Tanks have long been rather clunky steampunky designs, and the Guard has always been heavy on the WW1 aesthetic (inlcuding the old 2E Russ tank having box art with WW1 british tank stripe markings).

That said, they could definitely be done a bit better. I often use a shrunken Macharius design for my Russ tanks where it looks like a crew could actually fit (I don't think the guy that did these makes them anymore though).

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If IG went to a new more modern looking battle tank look for their armor I'd instantly be hooked.

Oh, I missed this bit. Hell no! The Cadians already look too modern. The Guard needs to be more of a weirdly steampunkish anachronism mess, not less. Vostroyans were the right direction.

Hell no, give me tacticool Guardsmen.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Dudes armed with lasers backed up by tanks with gun turrets too small to actually fit crew and led by dudes wielding chainsword saws in a universe where melee combat is somehow effective despite automatic weapons and orbital bombardment are in liberal use, 40k makes no sense in a ton of ways

Whats wrong with making IG tanks look like actual functional tanks? I assure you. Design a new russ that looks more like an Abrams/challenger tank and it will sell tons.

To me - IG represent modern military - the more they look like modern military the better.

Well, the setting has always been rather anachronistic. Space Marine armor is patterned far more off knightly medieval plate than modern body armor for instance. Tanks have long been rather clunky steampunky designs, and the Guard has always been heavy on the WW1 aesthetic (inlcuding the old 2E Russ tank having box art with WW1 british tank stripe markings).

That said, they could definitely be done a bit better. I often use a shrunken Macharius design for my Russ tanks where it looks like a crew could actually fit (I don't think the guy that did these makes them anymore though).

Those tanks look great BTW.

Yeah, the Macharius design still looks anachronistic, but doesn't look quite as goofy as the Russ, so fits very well once reduced in size, wish they were still around

Darsath wrote:


I think he means play a different game. Something other than 40k or Games Workshop related. Check out the competition and see if anything interests you if 40k isn't quite doing it for you atm.

That makes it even worse. even in AoS, which is a GW rule, there is no army I could use the GK as anything. I put all my money in to a GK army, and I don't have money to start another one, Worse now am too scared to start anything else. What if it gets nerfed in 2 months, what if the firm decides to drop the faction, what if I will wait for 2-3 years and the stuff I have never gets better.

My dad told me that his friend that played WFB waited for like 8 years for a faction fix, and in the end GW made AoS and his army doesn't exist in AoS. Still 8 years is more then half of my life. Maybe it won't matter to someone that is 40, but to me it seems like an eternity.

Football; nature walking; photography; self defence; art; reading; writing; juggling; smithing; crafting; swordplay; knitting etc.....

Well my options are be a hooligan and end up in jail, beat up or killed. Go in to drinking or doing drugs. I am not good enough to do sports in any official teams, plus I don't like the people in school teams, they are crazy because of all the roids they take. Sword play or HEMA is actually interesting and there even is a Polish Saber club near where I live, only the gear costs almost as much as a w40k army, plus the trainer would have to be ok.

If your hobby is causing you more stress than joy, for whatever reason, you need to step away from that hobby for a while.

I don't get a lot of games anymore. most people told me it is a "waste of time" to play vs GK. they only let me play if I pay for the table and when I lose they can use it to play someone else, so if they table me in 15-20 min, they still get 40 min "free" time to play, they don't have to pay for. I want to at least get back the money I put in to the army and the play time cost. How I don't care. I know I can't sell the army, so I hope GW is going to fix the army. It makes no sense to me, why they aren't doing it. While keeping good armies good. They could at least nerf all armies.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Whats wrong with making IG tanks look like actual functional tanks? I assure you. Design a new russ that looks more like an Abrams/challenger tank and it will sell tons.

To me - IG represent modern military - the more they look like modern military the better.

It's a stylistic thing, in fitting with the whole brutalistic industrial sort of production line of guard equipment. Guard vehicles operate like WWI vehicles, slowly grinding forwards toward the enemy, surrounded by guardsmen. A modern design gives off much more of a vibe of driving around the battlefield at 40mph making computer-stabilised shots against a target a mile away. It doesn't fit. A Russ that looks like a modern MBT is a Russ that I absolutely won't be buying. I love the WWI aesthetic on guard vehicles. It's fitting, and anything that looks more modern than WWIIish is too modern for me. As for the troops, I want guardsmen who look like they've marched straight out of the 19th century. Praetoria over Cadia any day.

Depends on the regiments, the Guard is the most varied faction there is, so saying it as a whole operates the way you prefer is false, some regiments do, and most likely yours do, but it doesn't mean that a more modern/tacticool IG is impossible within the setting.

 Stux wrote:
I simply see this issue as personal burnout, and not anything on GW's part.

You can't stay enthused about one thing indefinitely. You'll get bored and want something different. If you're feeling that, play something else for a while. It'll come back around.

And this is why I rotate between painting, reading books, podcasts, and games. 40k is more than just playing the game itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Dudes armed with lasers backed up by tanks with gun turrets too small to actually fit crew and led by dudes wielding chainsword saws in a universe where melee combat is somehow effective despite automatic weapons and orbital bombardment are in liberal use, 40k makes no sense in a ton of ways

Part of the problem is 40k vehicles have always been on a smaller scale than the rest of the models in the game leading to problems like that.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Depends on the regiments, the Guard is the most varied faction there is, so saying it as a whole operates the way you prefer is false, some regiments do, and most likely yours do, but it doesn't mean that a more modern/tacticool IG is impossible within the setting.

look what happens when you ad a more modern looking turret and hull to a human type tank. It just looks better. Imagine how cool a predator would look if it had an even bigger turret and gun.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Anyways - unless you count new BA and DA primaris kits - which are basically not even new kits. We've had practically no new models for about 1 1/2 years. I mean rouge trades characters...who the heck cares? That is what I am mostly depressed about. You know writing codex does not prevent them from producing models right?

Just cause YOU don't like the rogue trader characters..doesn't mean other people don't them ..like my whole group. Saying no new models are out and then saying..except these new models..but i don't like those so Im just ignoring them comes across as whiney. Same with orks. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they don't exist.

I actually like the first Predator there quite a lot. Probably about on even footing.

Not a fan of the first Predator though, the one before that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Depends on the regiments, the Guard is the most varied faction there is, so saying it as a whole operates the way you prefer is false, some regiments do, and most likely yours do, but it doesn't mean that a more modern/tacticool IG is impossible within the setting.

Isn't that basically what Millitarum Tempests are though? Both in lore and mechanics.

Sure they don't have a Battle Tank, but they could. Would that make everyone happy? Regular guard keep their WWI monstrosity (which I do have a big soft spot for) and Tempestus get a shiny modern design?

 rayphoton wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Anyways - unless you count new BA and DA primaris kits - which are basically not even new kits. We've had practically no new models for about 1 1/2 years. I mean rouge trades characters...who the heck cares? That is what I am mostly depressed about. You know writing codex does not prevent them from producing models right?

Just cause YOU don't like the rogue trader characters..doesn't mean other people don't them ..like my whole group. Saying no new models are out and then saying..except these new models..but i don't like those so Im just ignoring them comes across as whiney. Same with orks. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Not dismissing orks - I am happy they are getting their rules final after a year and a half - (wow amazing pace) pretty sad pace if you compare to any other company other than GW on earth. Like 8 people on earth care about 3 little human characters. Most of us want battle tanks - war machines - titans - flyers - gargants and stuff and not monopose LT. characters.

 Stux wrote:
I actually like the first Predator there quite a lot. Probably about on even footing.

Not a fan of the first Predator though, the one before that.

Yeah. And people even buy crazy expensive resin variants that mimic the style of that old Predator!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rayphoton wrote:

Just cause YOU don't like the rogue trader characters..doesn't mean other people don't them ..like my whole group. Saying no new models are out and then saying..except these new models..but i don't like those so Im just ignoring them comes across as whiney. Same with orks. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they don't exist.

I was over the moon when I first heard about the Rogue Trader thing, but I was super disappointed when I found out that they were just bunch of special characters with zero options. I want my own customisable Rogue Traders! Nice models nevertheless.

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I actually like the first Predator there quite a lot. Probably about on even footing.

Not a fan of the first Predator though, the one before that.

Yeah. And people even buy crazy expensive resin variants that mimic the style of that old Predator!

Agreed. Though it looks a little better in resin. Would never buy it still!

That thing is ugly. People who buy crazy expensive resin are special in their own way anyways. More than likely they bought it for it's rules and because it has different options compared to the other predators.

I can say objectively that thing looks like garbage compared to the new pred variant.

 Stux wrote:
I actually like the first Predator there quite a lot. Probably about on even footing.

Not a fan of the first Predator though, the one before that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Depends on the regiments, the Guard is the most varied faction there is, so saying it as a whole operates the way you prefer is false, some regiments do, and most likely yours do, but it doesn't mean that a more modern/tacticool IG is impossible within the setting.

Isn't that basically what Millitarum Tempests are though? Both in lore and mechanics.

Sure they don't have a Battle Tank, but they could. Would that make everyone happy? Regular guard keep their WWI monstrosity (which I do have a big soft spot for) and Tempestus get a shiny modern design?

Scions, to me, are more baroque than modern. The large decorative plate armour doesn't really fit modern armour that much. Heck, the IG's flak armour looks closer to modern wargear with the basic Cadian trooper looking like he's a take on Desert Storm era military which I don't think fits quite the setting as much as it could. I just feel like we need something more archaic in design that feels more like it's less generic sci-fi (which is largely based on the modern military with blockier guns).

That said, I'm also the person who wants to use the Solar Auxilia on the table in 40k games because I feel like they feel very 30s-50s scifi in design and it scratches an itch I have to run an army that looks like it's out of a B movie.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
That thing is ugly. People who buy crazy expensive resin are special in their own way anyways. More than likely they bought it for it's rules and because it has different options compared to the other predators.

I can say objectively that thing looks like garbage compared to the new pred variant.

Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

And I like the FW old school Predator and Rhino call backs for HH because it helps set the game apart from modern 40k and helps make the setting feel like a different time with different approaches to war.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That thing is ugly. People who buy crazy expensive resin are special in their own way anyways. More than likely they bought it for it's rules and because it has different options compared to the other predators.

I can say objectively that thing looks like garbage compared to the new pred variant.

Look. You just have really bad taste. You like boring modern stuff, instead of cool antiques. That's okay, some people are like that. However, I think you're kinda missing the whole aesthetics of 40K, it has never meant to be modern, not even the Space Marines.

It would be nice to see new models for Eldar & Dark Eldar. Some of those kits are ancient, and look really terrible. Also they should update those Klu Klux Kraftworld hats, really not a good look. IMO.

And I will never buy another resin model unless i have no other choice.

My castellan crowe with a boomerang sword is the prized jewel of my resin collection.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:


Just cause YOU don't like the rogue trader characters..doesn't mean other people don't them ..like my whole group. Saying no new models are out and then saying..except these new models..but i don't like those so Im just ignoring them comes across as whiney. Same with orks. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they don't exist.

(wow amazing pace) pretty sad pace if you compare to any other company other than GW on earth. Like 8 people on earth care about 3 little human characters. Most of us want battle tanks - war machines - titans - flyers - gargants and stuff and not monopose LT. characters.

Hyperbole much?

 rayphoton wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:


Just cause YOU don't like the rogue trader characters..doesn't mean other people don't them ..like my whole group. Saying no new models are out and then saying..except these new models..but i don't like those so Im just ignoring them comes across as whiney. Same with orks. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they don't exist.

(wow amazing pace) pretty sad pace if you compare to any other company other than GW on earth. Like 8 people on earth care about 3 little human characters. Most of us want battle tanks - war machines - titans - flyers - gargants and stuff and not monopose LT. characters.

Hyperbole much?

It's definitely hyperbole. I think the big thing holding the RT back in regular 40k is the inability to run them like army as a stand alone faction. Closest you could get to doing that is is build Guard and buy a LOT of Voidsmen to build the army out of. Which isn't quite the same thing.

 Marmatag wrote:
It would be nice to see new models for Eldar & Dark Eldar. Some of those kits are ancient, and look really terrible. Also they should update those Klu Klux Kraftworld hats, really not a good look. IMO.

To be fair, the DE line is probably one of the newest and most up to date, having been rebooted entirely from top to bottom in 5E.

 Marmatag wrote:
It would be nice to see new models for Eldar & Dark Eldar. Some of those kits are ancient, and look really terrible. Also they should update those Klu Klux Kraftworld hats, really not a good look. IMO.

I always rather liked the more ornate Farseer style helms on the Eldar- it made them feel and appear far more alien than just space elves with pointy hats. I'd love them to re-do eldar with more Farseer style so far more ornate and decorated and alien looking - perfectly within GW's capacity now with plastics

They're too busy pumping out specialist games. Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Kill Team, Rogue Trader expansion for kill team, commander expansion for kill team, adeptus titanicus... Why make stuff for 40k when you can pump out stuff for a new specialist game system and only support it for a year?

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I actually like the first Predator there quite a lot. Probably about on even footing.

Not a fan of the first Predator though, the one before that.

Yeah. And people even buy crazy expensive resin variants that mimic the style of that old Predator!

Agreed. Though it looks a little better in resin. Would never buy it still!

Honestly I love that thing. I've often thought about including some of those in my army over the current Predator models, which I'm not too keen on. The current turret looks great with the twin Assault Cannon Baal bits, but I'm really not a fan of the sponsons. I'm collecting the Baal turrets to use for TLAC Razorbacks. But if I were to go for a full Predator, Imo the FW one altogether looks way cooler.

 Toofast wrote:
They're too busy pumping out specialist games. Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Kill Team, Rogue Trader expansion for kill team, commander expansion for kill team, adeptus titanicus... Why make stuff for 40k when you can pump out stuff for a new specialist game system and only support it for a year?

Necromunda has been pretty well supported, Titanicus is seeing support, and Kill Team is definitely well supported.

And didn't Blood Bowl just get another team added in?

I wouldn't say I'm personally bored as much as I'm just patiently waiting for Chapter Approved. I won't be starting a new army any time soon (Harlequins!) so I'm just looking forward to improvements on Deathwatch, CSM, and AdMech.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:


Just cause YOU don't like the rogue trader characters..doesn't mean other people don't them ..like my whole group. Saying no new models are out and then saying..except these new models..but i don't like those so Im just ignoring them comes across as whiney. Same with orks. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they don't exist.

(wow amazing pace) pretty sad pace if you compare to any other company other than GW on earth. Like 8 people on earth care about 3 little human characters. Most of us want battle tanks - war machines - titans - flyers - gargants and stuff and not monopose LT. characters.

Hyperbole much?

It's definitely hyperbole. I think the big thing holding the RT back in regular 40k is the inability to run them like army as a stand alone faction. Closest you could get to doing that is is build Guard and buy a LOT of Voidsmen to build the army out of. Which isn't quite the same thing.

It's a lot closer to the truth than exaggeration. Man you guys are out of touch with the world.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's a lot closer to the truth than exaggeration. Man you guys are out of touch with the world.

Says the guy who wants 40k to look more like generic sci-fi setting by basing it off of modern military equipment....

You know who isn't excited about the RT stuff? People who play don't play KT and mainly play competetive 40k. Everyone else has some level of interest in the army, though most of us wish it all went a bit deeper than it does.

I'm actually considering getting a box and mixing GSC parts in to imply my GSC has ties to a RT that is helping them spread.

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That thing is ugly. People who buy crazy expensive resin are special in their own way anyways. More than likely they bought it for it's rules and because it has different options compared to the other predators.

I can say objectively that thing looks like garbage compared to the new pred variant.

Look. You just have really good taste. You like boring antique stuff, instead of cool modern gear. That's okay, some people are like that.

Fixed that for you.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
They're too busy pumping out specialist games. Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Kill Team, Rogue Trader expansion for kill team, commander expansion for kill team, adeptus titanicus... Why make stuff for 40k when you can pump out stuff for a new specialist game system and only support it for a year?

Necromunda has been pretty well supported, Titanicus is seeing support, and Kill Team is definitely well supported.

And didn't Blood Bowl just get another team added in?

Those games were all well supported the last time around. So was epic, BFG, etc... I will believe in 2-3 years when they're still updating the rulesets for all these specialist games. However, given their previous history, I'm not holding my breath. Luckily my SO plays with me and we have a nice table setup at home so if GW abandons them and my FLGS stops holding events, I'll still get to use my models and rules for these specialist games. Many weren't so lucky when they shitcanned all their specialist games in the past.

 Toofast wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
They're too busy pumping out specialist games. Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Kill Team, Rogue Trader expansion for kill team, commander expansion for kill team, adeptus titanicus... Why make stuff for 40k when you can pump out stuff for a new specialist game system and only support it for a year?

Necromunda has been pretty well supported, Titanicus is seeing support, and Kill Team is definitely well supported.

And didn't Blood Bowl just get another team added in?

Those games were all well supported the last time around. So was epic, BFG, etc... I will believe in 2-3 years when they're still updating the rulesets for all these specialist games. However, given their previous history, I'm not holding my breath. Luckily my SO plays with me and we have a nice table setup at home so if GW abandons them and my FLGS stops holding events, I'll still get to use my models and rules for these specialist games. Many weren't so lucky when they shitcanned all their specialist games in the past.

Don't forget that Kirby killed Specialist Games and he's not working in GW anymore. Context of what was going on and who pulled that trigger is important.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That thing is ugly. People who buy crazy expensive resin are special in their own way anyways. More than likely they bought it for it's rules and because it has different options compared to the other predators.

I can say objectively that thing looks like garbage compared to the new pred variant.

I don't think you know what the word "objectively" means...

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That thing is ugly. People who buy crazy expensive resin are special in their own way anyways. More than likely they bought it for it's rules and because it has different options compared to the other predators.

I can say objectively that thing looks like garbage compared to the new pred variant.

Look. You just have really good taste. You like boring antique stuff, instead of cool modern gear. That's okay, some people are like that.

Fixed that for you.

I have to disagree with your fix. Maybe it's because I play 40k as a way to step away from reality and take a break from real life paired with spending around 8 years in the Army (7 years, 9 months, 15 days but who is counting, right?) but I don't want modern military stuff mixed into 40k. A lot of scifi already treads that ground anyways and I rather like the way 40k is both moving forward with tech (laser weapons, anti-grav, FTL, ect) but is also moving backwards (melee fighting, ground engagements, tanks that look like they were nicked from a WWI museum). It's a beautiful blend that makes 40k feel different from other settings and I really like it that way.

Messed up edit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That thing is ugly. People who buy crazy expensive resin are special in their own way anyways. More than likely they bought it for it's rules and because it has different options compared to the other predators.

I can say objectively that thing looks like garbage compared to the new pred variant.

Look. You just have really good taste. You like boring antique stuff, instead of cool modern gear. That's okay, some people are like that.

Fixed that for you.

I have to disagree with your fix. Maybe it's because I play 40k as a way to step away from reality and take a break from real life paired with spending around 8 years in the Army (7 years, 9 months, 15 days but who is counting, right?) but I don't want modern military stuff mixed into 40k. A lot of scifi already treads that ground anyways and I rather like the way 40k is both moving forward with tech (laser weapons, anti-grav, FTL, ect) but is also moving backwards (melee fighting, ground engagements, tanks that look like they were nicked from a WWI museum). It's a beautiful blend that makes 40k feel different from other settings and I really like it that way.

Funny, I am on 5th year in the infantry and I'd much rather have a modern Guard than not, also had a sergeant who made very cool modern conversions when he was deployed in Afghanistan. But I think we'll never agree on the aesthetics part. Which is another nice thing from 40k, the setting is so large that anything fits, I have Scions that look like Navy Seals fighting alongside Kasrkins and beret wearing Scions wearing shirts. But its all good, because they're from different units getting issued gear from different Forgeworlds.

Seems to me (could be wrong) that GW is focusing on AoS right now. Wonderful new models coming out on that side, new Battletomes, new/resurrected factions, Warhammer Underworlds just got a new core set with Nighthaunt vs. Stormcast to go along with Soul Wars which didn't launch too long ago. It makes it even better that all the models that are part of Underworlds can be used in AoS as well.

I've seen this happen quite a lot overy my 3+ years in Warhammer... the pendulum swings back and forth between 40K and AoS. It'll swing back to 40K before long with the new Ork releases, remaining codices, and probably even more Kill Team content.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
Seems to me (could be wrong) that GW is focusing on AoS right now. Wonderful new models coming out on that side, new Battletomes, new/resurrected factions, Warhammer Underworlds just got a new core set with Nighthaunt vs. Stormcast to go along with Soul Wars which didn't launch too long ago. It makes it even better that all the models that are part of Underworlds can be used in AoS as well.

I've seen this happen quite a lot overy my 3+ years in Warhammer... the pendulum swings back and forth between 40K and AoS. It'll swing back to 40K before long with the new Ork releases, remaining codices, and probably even more Kill Team content.

SG

It used to swing back and forth during the same year, with model releases for both games and around 4 releases a year in total (two per game) but with this fast paced release pattern it seems GW is trying something new to balance it between the two games.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's a lot closer to the truth than exaggeration. Man you guys are out of touch with the world.

Says the guy who wants 40k to look more like generic sci-fi setting by basing it off of modern military equipment....

You know who isn't excited about the RT stuff? People who play don't play KT and mainly play competetive 40k. Everyone else has some level of interest in the army, though most of us wish it all went a bit deeper than it does.

I'm actually considering getting a box and mixing GSC parts in to imply my GSC has ties to a RT that is helping them spread.

I said I want IG tanks to look more like modern tanks because it will look better and might get me into the army. I don't want to change the setting. Plus it's mainly a load of gak anyways - your basic infantry have laser rifles. They fly around in hover jets that have laser cannons. They get around in 5 mile long ships that are capable of inter-dimensional travel. The only thing out of place really is russes looking like the first tank ever built. It might have something to do with the fact the mold was made for the kit in 1994. OVER 20 YEARS AGO.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's a lot closer to the truth than exaggeration. Man you guys are out of touch with the world.

Says the guy who wants 40k to look more like generic sci-fi setting by basing it off of modern military equipment....

You know who isn't excited about the RT stuff? People who play don't play KT and mainly play competetive 40k. Everyone else has some level of interest in the army, though most of us wish it all went a bit deeper than it does.

I'm actually considering getting a box and mixing GSC parts in to imply my GSC has ties to a RT that is helping them spread.

I said I want IG tanks to look more like modern tanks because it will look better. I don't want to change the setting. Plus it's mainly a load of gak anyways - your basic infantry have laser rifles. They fly around in hover jets that have laser cannons. They get around in 5 mile long ships that are capable of inter-dimensional travel. The only thing out of place really is russes looking like the first tank ever built. It might have something to do with the fact the mold was made for the kit in 1994. OVER 20 YEARS AGO.

It doesn't change the core of the setting, but it does change the asthetics of the setting.

And let's not get into a measuring contest over how old models are because there are models even older than the Russ still in the game (hey Blackmane!).

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That thing is ugly. People who buy crazy expensive resin are special in their own way anyways. More than likely they bought it for it's rules and because it has different options compared to the other predators.

I can say objectively that thing looks like garbage compared to the new pred variant.

I don't think you know what the word "objectively" means...

No - it is totally objective if more people would agree with me than not. Or that most people would say the old pred is uglier than the new pred. There is also the idea of proportion. Bad proportion is ugly - better proportion is less ugly (this is actual science if you care to look into it). Just depends on how you look at things. Really though - it's ugly. It looks like a toy - the newer pred looks more like a tank.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I said I want IG tanks to look more like modern tanks because it will look better and might get me into the army.

It would look better to you. But you can buy modern model tanks and use them to play 40K if you want, no need to change the aesthetic of the setting to conform to your terrible taste.

I don't want to change the setting. Plus it's mainly a load of gak anyways - your basic infantry have laser rifles. They fly around in hover jets that have laser cannons. They get around in 5 mile long ships that are capable of inter-dimensional travel. The only thing out of place really is russes looking like the first tank ever built. It might have something to do with the fact the mold was made for the kit in 1994. OVER 20 YEARS AGO.

Dear, Athe! You didn't seriously claim IG tanks look like they're from WWI because they were designed in 1994, eight decades after said war!

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's a lot closer to the truth than exaggeration. Man you guys are out of touch with the world.

Ahhhh, My bad...this is a Troll post. I didn't realize.

By all means carry on

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If IG went to a new more modern looking battle tank look for their armor I'd instantly be hooked.

Oh, I missed this bit. Hell no! The Cadians already look too modern. The Guard needs to be more of a weirdly steampunkish anachronism mess, not less. Vostroyans were the right direction.

IDK man. If you look at tank history - it only took about 30 years to go from WW1 tanks to modern looking battle tanks. I see no reason why IG tanks should still look like WW1 tanks.

Chimera has a modern look - It looks like a Warrior IFV to me. Valkeries look super futuristic. Russ just seem so behind the times. I hate the way they look.

No. Russes are meant to look like that- It's 100% intentional.

From GW themselves:

White Dwarf 366, June 2010 wrote:"What is interesting about the tanks of the 41st millennium," Dave (Andrews) says, leaning back in his chair and pointing to a nearby Leman Russ, "is that they're sci-fi vehicles, but unlike any you'll see elsewhere, take the Imperial Guard tanks. In truth they share more in common with a tank from the interwar period of the 20th century than they do a modern battle tank or anything 'futuristic'. They have curiously misshapen hulls, riveted armour plates and absolutely no aesthetic concession to the technological advances we have nowadays. Imperial Guard tanks don't even have proper, sloped armour and that is quite deliberate.

Their design spawns from the thought process of what a fundamentally 'backwards' tank would look like 38,000 years in the future in a place where technological understanding has collapsed and innovation is outlawed. The Imperium is archaic and backwards, clinging to the remnants of incredible technologies such as Plasma Cannons and Las weapons. The image is so exciting and unusual because these misunderstood innovations are embedded in fighting vehicles that make a modern tank look like a technical marvel."

 rayphoton wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's a lot closer to the truth than exaggeration. Man you guys are out of touch with the world.

Ahhhh, My bad...this is a Troll post. I didn't realize.

By all means carry on

No, it's a statement and an opinion. Want to see some troll posts - go read people defending infantry squads as being fair and balanced units rules wise in approximately 4 active threads ATM.

 Grimtuff wrote:

From GW themselves:

White Dwarf 366, June 2010 wrote:"What is interesting about the tanks of the 41st millennium," Dave (Andrews) says, leaning back in his chair and pointing to a nearby Leman Russ, "is that they're sci-fi vehicles, but unlike any you'll see elsewhere, take the Imperial Guard tanks. In truth they share more in common with a tank from the interwar period of the 20th century than they do a modern battle tank or anything 'futuristic'. They have curiously misshapen hulls, riveted armour plates and absolutely no aesthetic concession to the technological advances we have nowadays. Imperial Guard tanks don't even have proper, sloped armour and that is quite deliberate.

Their design spawns from the thought process of what a fundamentally 'backwards' tank would look like 38,000 years in the future in a place where technological understanding has collapsed and innovation is outlawed. The Imperium is archaic and backwards, clinging to the remnants of incredible technologies such as Plasma Cannons and Las weapons. The image is so exciting and unusual because these misunderstood innovations are embedded in fighting vehicles that make a modern tank look like a technical marvel."

And this makes sense too from the STC standpoint. Not all world would have ease manufacturing an advanced Battle tank, but old industrial-style tanks can be more easily mass produced.

That said, I do agree with Xenos that the old Pred is just ugly. I far prefer the updated Rhino-Chasis rectangular Pred

-

 Galef wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

From GW themselves:

White Dwarf 366, June 2010 wrote:"What is interesting about the tanks of the 41st millennium," Dave (Andrews) says, leaning back in his chair and pointing to a nearby Leman Russ, "is that they're sci-fi vehicles, but unlike any you'll see elsewhere, take the Imperial Guard tanks. In truth they share more in common with a tank from the interwar period of the 20th century than they do a modern battle tank or anything 'futuristic'. They have curiously misshapen hulls, riveted armour plates and absolutely no aesthetic concession to the technological advances we have nowadays. Imperial Guard tanks don't even have proper, sloped armour and that is quite deliberate.

Their design spawns from the thought process of what a fundamentally 'backwards' tank would look like 38,000 years in the future in a place where technological understanding has collapsed and innovation is outlawed. The Imperium is archaic and backwards, clinging to the remnants of incredible technologies such as Plasma Cannons and Las weapons. The image is so exciting and unusual because these misunderstood innovations are embedded in fighting vehicles that make a modern tank look like a technical marvel."

And this makes sense too from the STC standpoint. Not all world would have ease manufacturing an advanced Battle tank, but old industrial-style tanks can be more easily mass produced.

That said, I do agree with Xenos that the old Pred is just ugly. I far prefer the updated Rhino-Chasis rectangular Pred

-

Not to mention the Leman Russ runs on just about anything you can burn in its tank while something like an Abrams needs a very specific fuel mix to run properly.

Funny, that's not what I heard about the Abrams. However, the Abrams would be twice as fast and about three to four times as armored as a Land Raider.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Funny, that's not what I heard about the Abrams. However, the Abrams would be twice as fast and about three to four times as armored as a Land Raider.

An Abrams has a turbine engine that runs on jet fuel, gasoline, diesel or Marine Diesel, but remember not every world has the ability to refine these things and for all we know Promethium might just be barely refined crude oil, if it gets refined at all. Plus the Leman Russ can run almost anything it can burn, which makes it far more versatile and easy to maintain than an Abrams engine.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Funny, that's not what I heard about the Abrams. However, the Abrams would be twice as fast and about three to four times as armored as a Land Raider.

Also while we have some stats on relative thickness of armour, bare in mind we have no real idea of how strong or impact resistant 40k materials are in real terms.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

Problem is I like a good heavy stout, not this pale ale junk we have. I want a beer so heavy that if I run out of bread I can use it to make sandwiches. American beer usually doesn't quite measure up to that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

Problem is I like a good heavy stout, not this pale ale junk we have. I want a beer so heavy that if I run out of bread I can use it to make sandwiches. American beer usually doesn't quite measure up to that.

There’s a lot of good American stouts. American craft beer isn’t just IPAs, and if anything it’s drifted away from more and hoppier IPAs in the past few years.

 Stux wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Funny, that's not what I heard about the Abrams. However, the Abrams would be twice as fast and about three to four times as armored as a Land Raider.

Also while we have some stats on relative thickness of armour, bare in mind we have no real idea of how strong or impact resistant 40k materials are in real terms.

The equivalent of 300mm of conventionnal steel is what is said, not plasteel or special 40k material, just steel.

No, there aren't.

I am REALLY surprised people are stating they thinking releases are too slow. Just 4-5 years ago things were SO much slower. Remember armies going years without even a nod? Remember Dark Eldar waiting something like 4 freaking editions to get a new codex? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Heck even if its not a codex we literally have no units in the game with a stat line that was created less that 1.5 years ago. They might not be the greatest but I don't think that could be said for nearly any other point in the games history outside something like 2nd/ 3rd edition.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

Problem is I like a good heavy stout, not this pale ale junk we have. I want a beer so heavy that if I run out of bread I can use it to make sandwiches. American beer usually doesn't quite measure up to that.

There are some absolutely glorious US stouts and porters, thick as bread.

That said, they're usually buried under a billion liters of pale ales at the store or are on the rotating tap at bars, but they're out there. Deschutes, Rogue, Stone, Kona, Widmer, etc all do great porters and stouts.

I feel ya on the pale ale glut though, never saw the appeal or why every store needs 90% of their stock to be IPAs

meleti wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

Problem is I like a good heavy stout, not this pale ale junk we have. I want a beer so heavy that if I run out of bread I can use it to make sandwiches. American beer usually doesn't quite measure up to that.

There’s a lot of good American stouts. American craft beer isn’t just IPAs, and if anything it’s drifted away from more and hoppier IPAs in the past few years.

Check out some of the things Evil Twin, based in New York, are putting out. Some insanely good imperial stouts coming out of that brewery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

Problem is I like a good heavy stout, not this pale ale junk we have. I want a beer so heavy that if I run out of bread I can use it to make sandwiches. American beer usually doesn't quite measure up to that.

There are some absolutely glorious US stouts and porters, thick as bread.

That said, they're usually buried under a billion liters of pale ales at the store or are on the rotating tap at bars, but they're out there. Deschutes, Rogue, Stone, Kona, Widmer, etc all do great porters and stouts.

I feel ya on the pale ale glut though, never saw the appeal or why every store needs 90% of their stock to be IPAs

To be fair, 90% of sales are pale. I've worked in craft beer.

Hatachi wrote:
I am REALLY surprised people are stating they thinking releases are too slow. Just 4-5 years ago things were SO much slower. Remember armies going years without even a nod? Remember Dark Eldar waiting something like 4 freaking editions to get a new codex? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Pepperidge Farm also doesn't exaggerate.

The revisionist history of some people.... Yes, DE went 12 years without a new codex (unless you count the revised edition), but it was hardly "4 editions". They got their codex at the beginning of 3rd, got an update halfway through. Had nothing until their update in 2010 in 5th. So 2 editions.

Actually, this is a nice analogy for 40k. Doesn't matter if 9/10 of the beers you are selling are unusual and interesting sales, 90% will still be that one IPA you have on.

Same deal for the heroic human faction in games, that is Space Marines.

meleti wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

Problem is I like a good heavy stout, not this pale ale junk we have. I want a beer so heavy that if I run out of bread I can use it to make sandwiches. American beer usually doesn't quite measure up to that.

There’s a lot of good American stouts. American craft beer isn’t just IPAs, and if anything it’s drifted away from more and hoppier IPAs in the past few years.

There is a reason I've said "most American beers" and "usually doesn't measure up": because there are always exceptions.

Doesn't change that most American beers are just bad.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Hatachi wrote:
I am REALLY surprised people are stating they thinking releases are too slow. Just 4-5 years ago things were SO much slower. Remember armies going years without even a nod? Remember Dark Eldar waiting something like 4 freaking editions to get a new codex? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Pepperidge Farm also doesn't exaggerate.

The revisionist history of some people.... Yes, DE went 12 years without a new codex (unless you count the revised edition), but it was hardly "4 editions". They got their codex at the beginning of 3rd, got an update halfway through. Had nothing until their update in 2010 in 5th.

Sorry, no one plays Dark Eldar in my area. I didn't know about the 5th edition drop and thought it went from 3rd to 7th. Even then, the revised 3rd came out in 03' and the 5th edition came in 08'. That's a heck of a difference compared to "I haven't seen a codex this month. It's super dead."

*edit* Fixed quote boxes

 ClockworkZion wrote:

meleti wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

Problem is I like a good heavy stout, not this pale ale junk we have. I want a beer so heavy that if I run out of bread I can use it to make sandwiches. American beer usually doesn't quite measure up to that.

There’s a lot of good American stouts. American craft beer isn’t just IPAs, and if anything it’s drifted away from more and hoppier IPAs in the past few years.

There is a reason I've said "most American beers" and "usually doesn't measure up": because there are always exceptions.

Doesn't change that most American beers are just bad.

I agree. I strongly dislike IPAs. Shiner bock is my favorite all around beer. If you really want to chew on a beer, get a Stone Brewing - Double Bastard. I'm not even sure if Mortarian could stand it.

Sweet Emperors mercy, another whingefest where someone cant wait a while and wants 'MOAR STUFF NAOOW!!!!'

GW will keep releasing things, we've just had Kill Team, The new AoS (2nd ed), new ork vehicles are coming up. GW have released a phenomenal amount of product over the last few years, theyve even said Sisters will be next year and we've seen some digital sculpts for them already. Just sit back for a bit and enjoy your hobby, new stuff is coming soon..

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

meleti wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tastes vary and bashing taste is weaker than most American beers.

Have you tried the limited run of the Budweiser Jim Beam? It's pretty tasty and 6%. But yes, bud light is the Space Marine of beers.

Problem is I like a good heavy stout, not this pale ale junk we have. I want a beer so heavy that if I run out of bread I can use it to make sandwiches. American beer usually doesn't quite measure up to that.

There’s a lot of good American stouts. American craft beer isn’t just IPAs, and if anything it’s drifted away from more and hoppier IPAs in the past few years.

There is a reason I've said "most American beers" and "usually doesn't measure up": because there are always exceptions.

Doesn't change that most American beers are just bad.

I agree. I strongly dislike IPAs. Shiner bock is my favorite all around beer. If you really want to chew on a beer, get a Stone Brewing - Double Bastard. I'm not even sure if Mortarian could stand it.

This is so weird, I was recommending Double Bastard to a friend earlier today!

Talking about how Stone Brewing's marketing inspired what BrewDog did in their earlier days over here.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
Sweet Emperors mercy, another whingefest where someone cant wait a while and wants 'MOAR STUFF NAOOW!!!!'

GW will keep releasing things, we've just had Kill Team, The new AoS (2nd ed), new ork vehicles are coming up. GW have released a phenomenal amount of product over the last few years, theyve even said Sisters will be next year and we've seen some digital sculpts for them already. Just sit back for a bit and enjoy your hobby, new stuff is coming soon..

Again, I think the issue is the large increase is number of factions/armies in the game. If a new release isn't for someone's army, then it's usually ignored as most people only have a couple of armies that they play (or perhaps only 1). The increase in releases from Games Workshop would be thought to solve this issue, but the larger amount of armies that the game now hosts mitigates almost all of this benefit in the first place. It would be improper to demand that people be grateful for any release, and a little ignorant to assume the game hasn't changed in past 5-10 years.

 Stux wrote:

Check out some of the things Evil Twin, based in New York, are putting out. Some insanely good imperial stouts coming out of that brewery.

I'm in the Midwest and I'm not sure if we get much Evil Twin stocked around here, but I'll keep an eye out. My go to stout these days is Uncle Jacobs from Avery Brewing.

How did this thread devolve into talking about alcohol?

Anyway. I get where you're coming from. GW has spoiled us over the past year with releases, but most of those have been for Space Marines, Death Guard, Imperial Knights, and then some big shake-ups for Age of Sigmar. AoS got several new factions, boatloads of new models, and of course a new edition with models for spells and such.

There's a lot of factions that have been waiting a long time for any sort of attention. Glad that Orks and GSC are getting some new models here shortly, and I'm REALLY glad that Slaanesh is getting new models in the future...

But all of that is in the future. It's not now. Now is when I want to spend my money, and get an even larger backlog than I already have.

drbored wrote:
How did this thread devolve into talking about alcohol?

I mocked most American beers and here we are.

Besides, it's always topical since 40k is a beer and pretzels game.

drbored wrote:
How did this thread devolve into talking about alcohol?

Anyway. I get where you're coming from. GW has spoiled us over the past year with releases, but most of those have been for Space Marines, Death Guard, Imperial Knights, and then some big shake-ups for Age of Sigmar. AoS got several new factions, boatloads of new models, and of course a new edition with models for spells and such.

There's a lot of factions that have been waiting a long time for any sort of attention. Glad that Orks and GSC are getting some new models here shortly, and I'm REALLY glad that Slaanesh is getting new models in the future...

But all of that is in the future. It's not now. Now is when I want to spend my money, and get an even larger backlog than I already have.

Clearly we're so bored of GW's releases that we're resorting to alcoholism as a coping method.

I'm pretty content with GW though, frankly. I wish they'd go rescue the Eldar range from finecast, but the Orks and GSC ranges are deserving too.

Also, Xeno, you really meed to read this article!

Thanks to Crimson for steering us back toward the topic. Folks, please discuss alcohol in the Off-Topic Section, Thanks!

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
Sweet Emperors mercy, another whingefest where someone cant wait a while and wants 'MOAR STUFF NAOOW!!!!'

GW will keep releasing things, we've just had Kill Team, The new AoS (2nd ed), new ork vehicles are coming up. GW have released a phenomenal amount of product over the last few years, theyve even said Sisters will be next year and we've seen some digital sculpts for them already. Just sit back for a bit and enjoy your hobby, new stuff is coming soon..

that is an argument only if someone buys and plays absoltuly every game GW makes. I understand that marine players are unhappy that a lot of their stuff aged bad in 8th ed, but at least they got new stuff. Most of the armies coming up did get new stuff, marines other then GK, were given a lot by solo virtue of getting primaris. But what does someone like a necron player get out of 8th ed? a new cryptek model, when crypteks are already falling out of his ears. Stuff can be balanced by getting good rules though. I doubt the number of eldar players unhappy about 8th ed is very large.

. The increase in releases from Games Workshop would be thought to solve this issue, but the larger amount of armies that the game now hosts mitigates almost all of this benefit in the first place.

but GW doesn't have to make new models to give them new rules. they have WD, they could print rules for whole pre build armies that are cool and have good rules. They could give special rules to brotherhoods, IG regiments, kabals etc If someone has to wait years for an update it is crazy. I get that a very good or good codex, can be switched in game play with a CA, but if the codex is bad and there is nothing to save in it, then the amount of text they can dedict to a faction is too small to help with just a CA. And because bad factions are played less, the chance for an update are really small. I bet that if by some strange star aligment eldar suddenly became bad, they would get a codex in 3 months, and a FAQ fix after 2-3 weeks.

Necrons players get the same stuff other factions like Tau got: updated rules for the new edition. The Necrons kits are slightly older than Tau kits, I'll concede, but there's ranges that are in worse shape than Necrons, too.

meleti wrote:
Necrons players get the same stuff other factions like Tau got: updated rules for the new edition. The Necrons kits are slightly older than Tau kits, I'll concede, but there's ranges that are in worse shape than Necrons, too.

What do age of kits has to do if anything, if the units that they make are so bad, no one wants to buy them in the first place? It is like tau, pre CA 6-9 cmds in every army. Same with nids and tyrants. Good units, people buy and run it, Bad units few people buy it and ever fewer resell it for cheap.

Karol wrote:

meleti wrote:
Necrons players get the same stuff other factions like Tau got: updated rules for the new edition. The Necrons kits are slightly older than Tau kits, I'll concede, but there's ranges that are in worse shape than Necrons, too.

What do age of kits has to do if anything, if the units that they make are so bad, no one wants to buy them in the first place? It is like tau, pre CA 6-9 cmds in every army. Same with nids and tyrants. Good units, people buy and run it, Bad units few people buy it and ever fewer resell it for cheap.

Not even talking about quality of rules, just new kit releases. I don't think GW is looking at how successful an army is in tournament play - several years beforehand, given the length of production - when they decide who to make new model kits for.

But the rules GW makes are not suited to tournament play to begin with, and if GW doesn't care about them, then why is CA not a free update, but a book that costs like a codex.
They seem to make rules at random for most factions, aside for eldar. Because there is no way in hell that somehow when other factions had their ups and downs, eldar remain top tier for 8 out of 8 editions.

Karol wrote:
But the rules GW makes are not suited to tournament play to begin with, and if GW doesn't care about them, then why is CA not a free update, but a book that costs like a codex.
They seem to make rules at random for most factions, aside for eldar. Because there is no way in hell that somehow when other factions had their ups and downs, eldar remain top tier for 8 out of 8 editions.

CA is more than just a book for balance and as such justifies its cost.

The problem is the balancing stuff inside should be available for free as well (aka the points costs pages). Unless GW assumes we'll just get those off the internet via other means I guess.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
But the rules GW makes are not suited to tournament play to begin with, and if GW doesn't care about them, then why is CA not a free update, but a book that costs like a codex.
They seem to make rules at random for most factions, aside for eldar. Because there is no way in hell that somehow when other factions had their ups and downs, eldar remain top tier for 8 out of 8 editions.

CA is more than just a book for balance and as such justifies its cost.

The problem is the balancing stuff inside should be available for free as well (aka the points costs pages). Unless GW assumes we'll just get those off the internet via other means I guess.

Which most players do, anecdotally. Battlescribe and forum/Facebook posts will have updated points values within hours of CA releasing, if not earlier.

Karol wrote:
But the rules GW makes are not suited to tournament play to begin with, and if GW doesn't care about them, then why is CA not a free update, but a book that costs like a codex.

Because GW is a business that exists to make money and is, in fact, under a legal mandate maximize value to its shareholders and not a charity that exists to cater to your whim?

I can't help but feel that this is just a lot of whining. GW is moving significantly faster than they have done in the past. The sheer number of codices released within the year and a half or so since 8th edition dropped is unprecedented as far as I can recall.

Can't help but feel that with the "new" Geedubs, there are a lot of individuals sounding akin to self entitled 12 year olds. Not saying there aren't valid complaints to be made - Grey Knights players certainly have legitimate complaints for example - but the speed of things coming out? I can't help but scoff.

Thankfully dozens of other wargaming companies exist.
Dozens upon dozens of rulesets exist.
And dozens upon dozens upon dozens of manufacturers exist.

So plenty is out there to break the stale GW bubble of boredom and mediocrity

That would require effort, rather than someone else knocking the wall down for him/her.

It seems like people have absolute ZERO clue about how freaking long it takes to actually make a model, from the start of the first concept sketches, to the wire armature to the actual mold. It doesn't take hours, days or weeks. It takes months months. And since it's expensive as tits, they have to make absolute extremely sure that the model is just as they want it.

Or just CAD design it...it'll look gak but who cares? Your customers will still buy it

I think even with CAD it still probably takes a long time. I think people misunderstand why CAD is advantageous. When I learned to use CAD for architectural engineering in college, it wasn't really quicker, in fact it was quite a bit slower. The advantage was that you could make amendments to the finished product more easily and digital drawings are far easier to store, share and collaborate on.

I find this topic quite amusing.

I want a codex, I want new minis...etc.

Spare a thought for R&H players, myself on a very casual basis, who not only had their army range canned but a crap index nerfed on top.

Then start complaining...perspective people.

Shhh. It's ok. So long GW and FW are fighting a mini war behind the scenes we will not see anything.
Then GW will finaly take over FW and we will get a new and overpowered Codex made by GW with no soul but utterly destroying the meta until the next release.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

I find this topic quite amusing.

I want a codex, I want new minis...etc.

Spare a thought for R&H players, myself on a very casual basis, who not only had their army range canned but a crap index nerfed on top.

Then start complaining...perspective people.

Shhh. It's ok. So long GW and FW are fighting a mini war behind the scenes we will not see anything.
Then GW will finaly take over FW and we will get a new and overpowered Codex made by GW with no soul but utterly destroying the meta until the next release.

Shadow War: Nottinghamshire.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

I find this topic quite amusing.

I want a codex, I want new minis...etc.

Spare a thought for R&H players, myself on a very casual basis, who not only had their army range canned but a crap index nerfed on top.

Then start complaining...perspective people.

Shhh. It's ok. So long GW and FW are fighting a mini war behind the scenes we will not see anything.
Then GW will finaly take over FW and we will get a new and overpowered Codex made by GW with no soul but utterly destroying the meta until the next release.

Shadow War: Nottinghamshire.

"Ein Gespenst geht um in Europa" (historical joke, potentially interpreted edgy. If unhappy pls consider the complaintdepartment is a Gulag)

I honestly have a feeling that R&H players (as my self ) are short before we just decide to make our own Codex. The whole situations is unsatisfactory for the whole list (we lost a 3rd of our options in units and 90 % of our options and playstyles, GG NO RE FW/GW).
Especially mindboggling since the IA13 list was what many considered a masterpiece filling the holly trifecta of any codex/army list off: Fluffy choices, crunch choices and charachter for the army. (The list was neither Overpowered except the vraks supplement but feth that one, it had options for any and all kinds of uprisings, and managed to get the feel over off the desperation and fate of many imperial citizens.)
Now all R&H lists are a bunch of murderous Hobbos that worship the panthoen out of sheree stupidity, i guess and have successfully raided a weapons cache......
YAY

R&H?

 rayphoton wrote:
R&H?

Renegades and Heretics:

Basically: Mutants, traitor guardsmen, revolutionaires, Heretics or just plain discontent people. Rogue psykers etc.
The vast numbers of any chaos legion, sometimes champions want to build their own warbands out of them. Some of their leaders are Hereteks.

Chaos or general revolutionairies, fighting against the IoM.

Edit: Forgot mercenaries and pirates and ofcourse mercenary pirates.

Simply put . SCUM in various states of organisation.

Is it not kosher to make a IG army and call them chaos? (I ask cause that's what I'm doing)

 rayphoton wrote:
Is it not kosher to make a IG army and call them chaos? (I ask cause that's what I'm doing)

Yes and No:
Because you can't ally in with their repsective faction thanks to keywords.Basically you play Chaos but can't ally in Chaos in such a case.

Secondly: You can represent traitor guard with that. something quite alot of people do actually but the problem is you will be missing quite alot of interesting and fluffy choices. (Renegade Grenadiers for exemple, etc)

Additionally not all of these traitors are as organised as a guard force. Some of them are paramilitary in nature, others are literally just workers rioting, other again are mutants rising up from their slums,etc.
What you can represent is a small fraction of R&H with the imp codex and you are constantly at the mercy of your opponent, letting you do fluff choices,etc so suboptimally.

I recommend you that you get yourself some pictures of the IA13 list and then beginn to compare, it is a deeper list with way more options, only problem it is 7th edition and therefore atm Illegal.

Ahh..thank you for the new info to digest.

Only tangentially on topic, (and no on may care) I'm making a chaos army using IG and imperial fists and just calling and modeling them as chaos and Iron warriors.

But that book DOES look pretty cool....

ValentineGames wrote:
Or just CAD design it...it'll look gak but who cares? Your customers will still buy it

CAD lets you cheat a little by having a library of parts you can use, or the ability to take an old design and give it some new tweaks to make something new, but that doesn't make it instantaneous. It still takes time to sculpt stuff.

And personally I rather like most of their CAD designs. So much better than some of the stuff we've gotten in the past.

My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

For clarity, you cannot use units with Keyword ASTRA MILITARUM in a Renegades and Heretics list but it is perfectly permissible to use the Astra MIlitarum/Imperial Guard miniatures to represent Renegades and Heretics.

There's also nothing stopping you modelling AM/IG miniatures as R&H but running them as AM/IG. Of course, you can't ally in Daemons or CSM/Heretic Astartes then but AM/IG are so strong that you don't need to.

Don't buy IA13, it is obsolete. The 8th Ed. R&H army list is in Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

I fail to see how any sort of release cycle is "unacceptable". I mean, sure, I'd like to see updates for every army every edition, but when you're doing 2 codex releases a year on average and the edition runs around 5 years or so, you're not going to get through all the armies in that amount of time. Some level of reasonable expectations need to be laid out. Even with GW's accelerated release schedule (a schedule that may have people burnt out already), 40k isn't their only game and because they're working on multiple different games at the same time it means they're not going to just chuck out books for everyone right away.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

That's such a meaningless statement though. They've release a lot of stuff, for a lot of game but a lot for 40k.

The fact that not enough of it (in your opinion) interests you, specifically, does not make it in some way objectively unacceptable.

If it's unacceptable to you, fair enough. Take a break from GW for a while.

Honestly with the speed GW is cranking stuff out right now I can't think of any other company in the miniatures world working at this pace barring one or two Kickstarters - and that is only after they've had one to two years of production and development after funding (and thus have a glut of product to bring to market) (Warcradle would also fit into this as WWE was KS launched before they sold to WC)

GW is developing at a record pace that we've never seen - times have never been better, esp for 40K! Indexes at launch, Codex for the entire game within 2 years including several new armies as well as several (at least 3) new specialist games and Age of Sigmar releases all alongside that. It's a huge volume of stuff.

Heck I can never remember a time when I WEEKLY saw new stuff from GW marketed. Monthly was the best we could hope for in the past and even then one might wait years for an army update - all the while worrying that your army could be "Squatted"

 Excommunicatus wrote:
For clarity, you cannot use units with Keyword ASTRA MILITARUM in a Renegades and Heretics list but it is perfectly permissible to use the Astra MIlitarum/Imperial Guard miniatures to represent Renegades and Heretics.

There's also nothing stopping you modelling AM/IG miniatures as R&H but running them as AM/IG. Of course, you can't ally in Daemons or CSM/Heretic Astartes then but AM/IG are so strong that you don't need to.

Don't buy IA13, it is obsolete. The 8th Ed. R&H army list is in Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.

That's why i recommended him to get pictures.

People keep talking about how sisters should be immediately after orks... we haven't even seen a pic of a model yet. I think it's going to be mid 2019 for them.

Technically we have seen a pic of one model and it looks amazing. But yea with sisters getting a beta codex in CA I doubt that they will get their release until deep in 2019.

GW has flat out stated that Sisters were 2019 (Emperor Willing) and that CA only has beta rules so they can get feedback to make the codex better than they think they could do on their own.

I've heard people making rumblings that GSC were going to be next (in November) but considering that GW said they were "working on the codex" in the change to reserves when they mentioned Cult Ambush I'm going to say that they're not this year either. They could get expanded extra rules in CA again though.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW has flat out stated that Sisters were 2019 (Emperor Willing) and that CA only has beta rules so they can get feedback to make the codex better than they think they could do on their own.

I've heard people making rumblings that GSC were going to be next (in November) but considering that GW said they were "working on the codex" in the change to reserves when they mentioned Cult Ambush I'm going to say that they're not this year either. They could get expanded extra rules in CA again though.

The turnaround for Codexes isn't that long. It's certainly not as long as it takes them to make models. After all, when they pushed out the Space Wolves codex, they made a fix to all the languages except English in time to make the final print.

I wouldn't be surprised to see GSC in November or even beginning of December. There's people that will say that GW never releases anything in December, but they did last year.

As for the Sisters of Battle, expect mid 2019 at the earliest. We still haven't seen full renders of the sisters' armor except that one model that they're planning on releasing ahead of time. The heads they showed off were also still not final, and there's the idea floating around that the sisters release won't just be old models redone, but that there will be some new things in there as well. The Beta Codex will likely contain only the old models to get a feel for the balance and give people time to give feedback. And man, I'm going to be all over that giving as much feedback as possible!

There's lots of things to look forward to. When it comes to GW, the problem with every edition is always wading through the first 2 years of space marines (in this case Primaris) and THEN getting to the interesting stuff. Until that point, the hobby is what you make of it.

drbored wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW has flat out stated that Sisters were 2019 (Emperor Willing) and that CA only has beta rules so they can get feedback to make the codex better than they think they could do on their own.

I've heard people making rumblings that GSC were going to be next (in November) but considering that GW said they were "working on the codex" in the change to reserves when they mentioned Cult Ambush I'm going to say that they're not this year either. They could get expanded extra rules in CA again though.

The turnaround for Codexes isn't that long. It's certainly not as long as it takes them to make models. After all, when they pushed out the Space Wolves codex, they made a fix to all the languages except English in time to make the final print.

I wouldn't be surprised to see GSC in November or even beginning of December. There's people that will say that GW never releases anything in December, but they did last year.

As for the Sisters of Battle, expect mid 2019 at the earliest. We still haven't seen full renders of the sisters' armor except that one model that they're planning on releasing ahead of time. The heads they showed off were also still not final, and there's the idea floating around that the sisters release won't just be old models redone, but that there will be some new things in there as well. The Beta Codex will likely contain only the old models to get a feel for the balance and give people time to give feedback. And man, I'm going to be all over that giving as much feedback as possible!

There's lots of things to look forward to. When it comes to GW, the problem with every edition is always wading through the first 2 years of space marines (in this case Primaris) and THEN getting to the interesting stuff. Until that point, the hobby is what you make of it.

I think people are underestimating the lead time on printing. And due to the lack of a need for translation, the English version of a codex can go to print yonks ahead of other languages meaning the Space Wolves codex thing could have easily just been the result of the English version being read to go to the printers far earlier than other versions.

 Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

That's such a meaningless statement though. They've release a lot of stuff, for a lot of game but a lot for 40k.

The fact that not enough of it (in your opinion) interests you, specifically, does not make it in some way objectively unacceptable.

If it's unacceptable to you, fair enough. Take a break from GW for a while.

But to make this good you would have to have the majority of people play at least multiple w40k armies, and to be really safe also other games, maybe not even GW ones. So no model transitioning. I don't know about other countries, but here people that actually own more then one army are either 40+year old veteran players or store owners. Everyone else has max 1 army, and unless someone plays demons the number of people playing AoS or any other game, and w40k is close to zero too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly with the speed GW is cranking stuff out right now I can't think of any other company in the miniatures world working at this pace barring one or two Kickstarters - and that is only after they've had one to two years of production and development after funding (and thus have a glut of product to bring to market) (Warcradle would also fit into this as WWE was KS launched before they sold to WC)

GW is developing at a record pace that we've never seen - times have never been better, esp for 40K! Indexes at launch, Codex for the entire game within 2 years including several new armies as well as several (at least 3) new specialist games and Age of Sigmar releases all alongside that. It's a huge volume of stuff.

Heck I can never remember a time when I WEEKLY saw new stuff from GW marketed. Monthly was the best we could hope for in the past and even then one might wait years for an army update - all the while worrying that your army could be "Squatted"

I don't know most of their codex came with zero new models, and a lot of the codex were the index copy pasted with added stratagems and relics. And a lot of those were re used, in different books.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

That's such a meaningless statement though. They've release a lot of stuff, for a lot of game but a lot for 40k.

The fact that not enough of it (in your opinion) interests you, specifically, does not make it in some way objectively unacceptable.

If it's unacceptable to you, fair enough. Take a break from GW for a while.

But to make this good you would have to have the majority of people play at least multiple w40k armies, and to be really safe also other games, maybe not even GW ones. So no model transitioning. I don't know about other countries, but here people that actually own more then one army are either 40+year old veteran players or store owners. Everyone else has max 1 army, and unless someone plays demons the number of people playing AoS or any other game, and w40k is close to zero too.

Ok, but that's still not really GW's fault. They can't have such a variety of faction and constantly release stuff for all of them.

I think my advice stands - this sounds like personal burnout, so give the game a rest.

How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

Now I understand why they don't make a batch of models to different factions each month. It is not their style. But it is one thing not doing that, and making games with the assumption that the only way to be safe playing it, is spending 3000-4000$ on 3-4 factions, and maybe having some 500$ spare in some specialist game or even a non GW game. They should at least warn people about it. Or do stuff like this is codex X, we are not planning to update it or give it good rules, but we have models for the faction and there are those faction players asking for rules , so we put it out, but don't expect it to be playable, we didn't playtest it at all.

Karol wrote:
How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

Now I understand why they don't make a batch of models to different factions each month. It is not their style. But it is one thing not doing that, and making games with the assumption that the only way to be safe playing it, is spending 3000-4000$ on 3-4 factions, and maybe having some 500$ spare in some specialist game or even a non GW game. They should at least warn people about it. Or do stuff like this is codex X, we are not planning to update it or give it good rules, but we have models for the faction and there are those faction players asking for rules , so we put it out, but don't expect it to be playable, we didn't playtest it at all.

The burnout isn't just getting tired of them giving you stuff, or even playing games. I get the impression that engaging with the hobby at all is having a negative affect for you at the moment basically.

And we come full circle to "GW owes me the models I want when I want them".

Speaking of models that I want when I want them, I was on board to bang on about blisterpacks for GSC characters, but after my FLGS got me a Broodcoven box I can see why the GSC HQs aren't packaged seperately at the moment (it's one well put together sprue and not 3 small sprues as it'd make you think it was).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW has flat out stated that Sisters were 2019 (Emperor Willing) and that CA only has beta rules so they can get feedback to make the codex better than they think they could do on their own.

I've heard people making rumblings that GSC were going to be next (in November) but considering that GW said they were "working on the codex" in the change to reserves when they mentioned Cult Ambush I'm going to say that they're not this year either. They could get expanded extra rules in CA again though.

My thinking is that the "beta codex" will have most of the rules that work with the metal models that already exist; datasheets, probably some stratagems and faction traits. The actual Sisters release will certainly come with new units and new wargear for the existing units so they wouldn't be able to publically playtest that stuff even if they wanted to.

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

The burnout isn't just getting tired of them giving you stuff, or even playing games. I get the impression that engaging with the hobby at all is having a negative affect for you at the moment basically.

I don't understand that, my therapist told me I should engage in hobby activity to start feeling better. This would make no sense at all. I spend money on the army, I should get something in return. I understand it is scaled, and that someone who spends 10 times as much will get more out of his army. But are you telling me my "fun" was having those 5-6 games vs the primaris player, before he got the custodes bikers and a knight? that I spent all my money for 5 games>?

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

The burnout isn't just getting tired of them giving you stuff, or even playing games. I get the impression that engaging with the hobby at all is having a negative affect for you at the moment basically.

I don't understand that, my therapist told me I should engage in hobby activity to start feeling better. This would make no sense at all. I spend money on the army, I should get something in return. I understand it is scaled, and that someone who spends 10 times as much will get more out of his army. But are you telling me my "fun" was having those 5-6 games vs the primaris player, before he got the custodes bikers and a knight? that I spent all my money for 5 games>?

Burn out can happen to anyone, regardless of the hobby. Sometimes you need to step back from the game itself and tackle other projects or change which army you're working on, or even just read a book. Maybe you just find a specific opponent less fun to play, or maybe you're boxing yourself in too much on how you do your own hobby that you need a little time to decompress before coming at it with a new perspective.

The models and the game will still be there if you take a couple days or even a couple months off away from the game. Don't think of it as leaving the hobby as much as recharging your batteries so when you play games again it doesn't feel as draining as it seems to be for you right now.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

The burnout isn't just getting tired of them giving you stuff, or even playing games. I get the impression that engaging with the hobby at all is having a negative affect for you at the moment basically.

I don't understand that, my therapist told me I should engage in hobby activity to start feeling better. This would make no sense at all. I spend money on the army, I should get something in return. I understand it is scaled, and that someone who spends 10 times as much will get more out of his army. But are you telling me my "fun" was having those 5-6 games vs the primaris player, before he got the custodes bikers and a knight? that I spent all my money for 5 games>?

I don't know you, I don't know your exact circumstances or anything. Just going off my own experience.

All I'm saying is that sometimes a hobby becomes a chore, and then it's time to try a new hobby. To do otherwise is likely succumbing to the sunk cost fallacy, something we all do from time to time.

You got something in return; you got a bunch of miniatures.

You give them money, they give you miniatures. That's the contract.

End of. Fin. Dokończony.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Burn out can happen to anyone, regardless of the hobby. Sometimes you need to step back from the game itself and tackle other projects or change which army you're working on, or even just read a book. Maybe you just find a specific opponent less fun to play, or maybe you're boxing yourself in too much on how you do your own hobby that you need a little time to decompress before coming at it with a new perspective.

The models and the game will still be there if you take a couple days or even a couple months off away from the game. Don't think of it as leaving the hobby as much as recharging your batteries so when you play games again it doesn't feel as draining as it seems to be for you right now.

What other projects? I can't take my GK and say that they are BA or SW or DW like some dudes around here do. There are no armies with same load outs of weapons, plus all the special weapons would be non WYSIWYG. Am not even sure there are armies other then BA who can have hvy flamers in their troop units. And for the last month and a half I had zero opponents. I go to the store, ask people if they would like to play and they don't want to, most common anwser is that it is a waste of time. Worse because of how GK units are mostly termintors, I can't take part in any of the smaller games, because those ban +2sv models. Plus what would I do in the mean time, I have to write bi weekly reports to my therapists about what I am doing, otherwise it is back to the hospital or juvi for me.

You got something in return; you got a bunch of miniatures.

If something doesn't work, then it is not a thing. If someone sold you a care and forgot to mention the engine isn't actualy in the car, you would expect a refund. Or at least feel cheated.

All I'm saying is that sometimes a hobby becomes a chore, and then it's time to try a new hobby. To do otherwise is likely succumbing to the sunk cost fallacy, something we all do from time to time.

Sorry, but I don't get it. Plus I don't know what a sunk cost fallacy, no translator says what that means.

It means that because you've paid money into your hobby (ergo bought models and paint and glue) you continue to feel like you must stick with that hobby. That you must play with your army no matter what because you've got money tied up in it and that if you don't use it that money was a "waste".

It's a fallacy because its not true, you paid money and got the joy of building and painting and playing with those models. Then you reach a point where you are no longer getting enjoyment from them.

At that point you can
1) Change to a different hobby - put the models and tools in a box and try something else. Sports, walking, drawing, writing, reading etc.... Ergo you try out something else. The money on the first hobby isn't wasted, its just invested into something you're not using right now and which you can always come back too.

2) Try something different within the hobby. You might start converting; or a new paint scheme; or a new army. IF you've not bought any new models for your current army in a long while you might buy some to change your army composition etc...
This can often work when you're just in a small bored phase and you do something a little different. Games like Necromunda and Bloodbowl are ideal GW examples of smaller games many shift to for a change in pace. Kill Team is another; or you could try Infinity or Malifaux if they are played locally - again low investment changes within the hobby to give you renewed interest.


Remembering that you might just be "burned out" ergo bored with your current hobby.


That's life. Some people latch onto one thing and never burn out; others burn out almost every week. Different people react differently but the key is realising it and then adjusting and accepting the change. Sometimes that means putting the army in a box for a week/month/year or more.

The sunk cost fallacy is where you keep putting money into something, because you've already spent money on it. Because otherwise the money you initially spent was a 'waste'.

So you buy a car for $5000, but it requires $2000 of maintenance and repairs every year and you keep paying it rather than scrapping the car and buying a new one because if you scrap it, you've 'wasted' all the money you've previously spent on it.

You weren't sold a car that has no engine, though. You were sold a car that has three modes of performance and you don't like how it performs in one of those modes. It also appears that you didn't do any research before buying your car.

GW has long been explicit in selling a 'hobby'. Their release schedule is quite deliberate because they know we're impulsive adultchildren by and large and they want us to buy their other ranges too.

I'm quite happy with all those smaller board game / starter set releases, since they invariably lead to cheap single sprue sales on eBay well below GW pricing. Forgebane was the sole reason I was able to start Necrons on a tiny budget, so by all means, let them release more of those.

Karol wrote:

You got something in return; you got a bunch of miniatures.

If something doesn't work, then it is not a thing. If someone sold you a care and forgot to mention the engine isn't actualy in the car, you would expect a refund. Or at least feel cheated.

I would have no right to feel cheated if I didn't check under the hood prior to purchase.

Herbington wrote:

Karol wrote:

You got something in return; you got a bunch of miniatures.

If something doesn't work, then it is not a thing. If someone sold you a care and forgot to mention the engine isn't actualy in the car, you would expect a refund. Or at least feel cheated.

I would have no right to feel cheated if I didn't check under the hood prior to purchase.

To be fair to Karol, I don't think someone new to the game (or even the edition) should be expected to have a comprehensive view of the meta and faction power levels before making a purchase.

That said, there's no guarantee when buying miniatures that you'll have fun with them. Different people derive fun in all kinds of different ways after all.

The sunk cost fallacy, as others have commented on, is the usually incorrect idea that once you've put money into something you are stuck with it purely because of the money you've spent (the sunk cost), often leading to spending more money on it because you feel invested. Often times you'd be better off in the long run letting it go.

To be unfair to Karol, wargaming forums and discussions of relative power are so widespread and commonplace that I find it impossible to believe that a person cannot get a decent read on a Faction before signing up.

Of course, this logic falls down if he/she bought them in a previous edition and they then got nerfed.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
To be unfair to Karol, wargaming forums and discussions of relative power are so widespread and commonplace that I find it impossible to believe that a person cannot get a decent read on a Faction before signing up.

Of course, this logic falls down if he/she bought them in a previous edition and they then got nerfed.

Yeah but consider how many people are actually active online.
In most gamer clubs only a handful of people are ever online chatting about wargames on wargame forums and some clubs don't even do much if anything online. Even if you head over to Steam, where to play games you're also already registered on their forums, even the biggest of games doesn't have hundreds of thousands chatting on the forums about the game.

Many more either glance and read or just don't go online to "research" things; those that do often do sign up and chat on forums so it can seem that its normal, when in fact its not always. In addition information is rife on the net - as is missinforation. When you know little to nothing about a subject its very very easy to get the wrong end of the stick (that's why Universities have lectures and lecturers to guide students, they don't just give you subjects, reading lists and then an exam after a few months). Or to miss out huge chunks of information because you don't know its even there to Google* it.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp
Google is great, but its not fantastic. The results it shows are based purely on popularity not accuracy or quality; furthermore the way it searches means you've often got to know part of the answer in order to ask the right question to get the right results. Sifting through them also requires some understanding to weed out the exceptions from the accurate. Plus there are a lot more "shock" sites now that work by having titles and articles that are brazenly wrong or highly controversial, just to get attention and clicks.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
To be unfair to Karol, wargaming forums and discussions of relative power are so widespread and commonplace that I find it impossible to believe that a person cannot get a decent read on a Faction before signing up.

Of course, this logic falls down if he/she bought them in a previous edition and they then got nerfed.

Are they though? Are they really?

Not to mention the fact that whenever someone asks about power level or relative power between factions there's people that jump in to tell them that everything will be great as long as they buy models they like. It can be incredibly misleading to someone trying to get started in a competitive meta and wanting a competitive army to be told this, and can lead to them believing that the power level disparity is small enough that they can succeed as long as they play well, when the power level disparity in such a meta will be soulcrushing to someone taking models just because they like them.

Plus, when starting a game like this because you see it being played in store and people are pumped to talk to you about it in person, why would you assume you even need to go online and research what's weak and strong? Why would you not believe it to be relatively balanced without evidence to the contrary? Nobody told me I wouldn't be able to win with my first faction, yet I had no reason to suspect that to be the case until I played several games with them. THEN I got online and started doing research on how to win and discovered "Oh crap I've wasted money and time."

Yes, they are. They're everywhere.

I have very little sympathy for anyone who buys into a salesperson's puffery, makes purchases without conducting their own research and then later claims they were hoodwinked.

GW is not your friend. They are a company that exists to separate you from your money. Caveat Emptor.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Yes, they are. They're everywhere.

I have very little sympathy for anyone who buys into a salesperson's puffery, makes purchases without conducting their own research and then later claims they were hoodwinked.

GW is not your friend. They are a company that exists to separate you from your money. Caveat Emptor.

How visible are they? Overread had a better response to this, so I'll just let that stand, considering you didn't even respond to it yet.

Just a salesperson's "puffery?" I didn't even mention employees, but I guess it could be implied by what I wrote. I just meant "people around you" being excited to talk another person about playing, and maybe you go online to a facebook group, where people tell you it's all gonna be great as long as you like the models. Then you play some games and the power disparity between some factions becomes clear. Then you go online and try to figure out what you're doing wrong - turns out it's nothing, the faction just can't compete like that. It's a feel-bad moment, where a new player finds out how unbalanced factions are.

There's a difference between "misleading information" and being "hoodwinked," the former being very possibly well-intentioned, in a genuine belief of what the person is saying.

Also lets not forget that the local meta, the competitive meta and player skill and interpretation of events all come into play too. I've seen it many times (esp with Warmachine/Hordes) where a faction is considered "weak" until it wins a major competition and then its focused on like crazy.

So even power discussions on armies are not cut and dry affairs with clear answers. Plus who the heck are you people anyway? No seriously anyone online can post anything - I can write an entire website on a faction - it could be all true or all fake. For an experienced person they will spot the fake bits now and then and then realise that most of it is fake (or highly opinionated); whilst a new person can't do that.

Online research is good, don't get me wrong, but its not the be all and end all that will make perfect choices



Plus most people are rubbish players when they get started. No joke; same as in any hobby most people are bad when they get started*. So sometimes its not the game that is at fault but the person playing. Many a gamer starts out thinking "Oh cool I'm going to build the most shooty army ever and its going to be awesome" only to find that they don't actually like it. That they actually prefer close combat. Or they thought they'd like 40k, but instead find Infinity far more fun.
Games and companies and online forums didn't get them wrong, it was just inexperience and then experience that shifted their viewpoint.

*unless the hobby relies heavily on skills they've developed in other hobbies or work

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
To be unfair to Karol, wargaming forums and discussions of relative power are so widespread and commonplace that I find it impossible to believe that a person cannot get a decent read on a Faction before signing up.

Of course, this logic falls down if he/she bought them in a previous edition and they then got nerfed.

Are they though? Are they really?

Not to mention the fact that whenever someone asks about power level or relative power between factions there's people that jump in to tell them that everything will be great as long as they buy models they like. It can be incredibly misleading to someone trying to get started in a competitive meta and wanting a competitive army to be told this, and can lead to them believing that the power level disparity is small enough that they can succeed as long as they play well, when the power level disparity in such a meta will be soulcrushing to someone taking models just because they like them.

Plus, when starting a game like this because you see it being played in store and people are pumped to talk to you about it in person, why would you assume you even need to go online and research what's weak and strong? Why would you not believe it to be relatively balanced without evidence to the contrary? Nobody told me I wouldn't be able to win with my first faction, yet I had no reason to suspect that to be the case until I played several games with them. THEN I got online and started doing research on how to win and discovered "Oh crap I've wasted money and time."

The reason we tell people to start with the faction they like the look of is because you're going to suck for a while using it. So enjoy the models while you learn. Because You have to learn how to play before you can understand how to play competitively. Sure you can buy only the top models and the best net list, but it doesn't mean anything if you don't understand how to use it. And with the current edition any net list you buy has an expiration date on it.

If you hate to waste money then don't play this game competitively, because that is what you're going to do.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
To be unfair to Karol, wargaming forums and discussions of relative power are so widespread and commonplace that I find it impossible to believe that a person cannot get a decent read on a Faction before signing up.

Of course, this logic falls down if he/she bought them in a previous edition and they then got nerfed.

Are they though? Are they really?

Not to mention the fact that whenever someone asks about power level or relative power between factions there's people that jump in to tell them that everything will be great as long as they buy models they like. It can be incredibly misleading to someone trying to get started in a competitive meta and wanting a competitive army to be told this, and can lead to them believing that the power level disparity is small enough that they can succeed as long as they play well, when the power level disparity in such a meta will be soulcrushing to someone taking models just because they like them.

Plus, when starting a game like this because you see it being played in store and people are pumped to talk to you about it in person, why would you assume you even need to go online and research what's weak and strong? Why would you not believe it to be relatively balanced without evidence to the contrary? Nobody told me I wouldn't be able to win with my first faction, yet I had no reason to suspect that to be the case until I played several games with them. THEN I got online and started doing research on how to win and discovered "Oh crap I've wasted money and time."

The reason we tell people to start with the faction they like the look of is because you're going to suck for a while using it. So enjoy the models while you learn. Because You have to learn how to play before you can understand how to play competitively. Sure you can buy only the top models and the best net list, but it doesn't mean anything if you don't understand how to use it. And with the current edition any net list you buy has an expiration date on it.

If you hate to waste money then don't play this game competitively, because that is what you're going to do.

Not to mention that hobby scores are becoming more and more of a thing among tournaments meaning you'll want to paint something you like over something you hate.

Further, probably half the armies in the game have had a place in the top list at one point or another over the course of the last year. Off the top of my head:

-IG
-Marines
-CWE
-DE
-Harlies
-Custodes
-BA
-CSM
-DG
-TS
-Nids
-Custodes
-Knights

 Excommunicatus wrote:
To be unfair to Karol, wargaming forums and discussions of relative power are so widespread and commonplace that I find it impossible to believe that a person cannot get a decent read on a Faction before signing up.

Of course, this logic falls down if he/she bought them in a previous edition and they then got nerfed.

If we all just listened to wargaming forums like this one to identify relative power, then a prospective new hobbyist would be led to believe that every opponent is a top 16 tournament player, every game is determined entirely on the first turn, every unit is bad because focus fire can kill it, every faction is horribly broken and needs a full rewrite, and unless you buy knights you're doing it wrong.

Since none of those things represent actual reality in 99.9% of gaming communities, I'm hesitant to agree that communities like this one (where the hardcore discuss the minutiae of the game) is of any real use to newbies. I mean, the servers that host dakka haven't been plugged in for 5 years - they're run entirely on a constant stream of hyperbole, Ork whining, and poking fun at Tau players.

The only real advice we can provide is this - things change in this game. Things have been changing pretty quickly and pretty regularly in this game. We've had the longest period of time with a stable meta in 8th edition, and it's only been 5 months.

Lemondish wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
To be unfair to Karol, wargaming forums and discussions of relative power are so widespread and commonplace that I find it impossible to believe that a person cannot get a decent read on a Faction before signing up.

Of course, this logic falls down if he/she bought them in a previous edition and they then got nerfed.

If we all just listened to wargaming forums like this one to identify relative power, then a prospective new hobbyist would be led to believe that every opponent is a top 16 tournament player, every game is determined entirely on the first turn, every unit is bad because focus fire can kill it, every faction is horribly broken and needs a full rewrite, and unless you buy knights you're doing it wrong.

Since none of those things represent actual reality in 99.9% of gaming communities, I'm hesitant to agree that communities like this one (where the hardcore discuss the minutiae of the game) is of any real use to newbies. I mean, the servers that host dakka haven't been plugged in for 5 years - they're run entirely on a constant stream of hyperbole, Ork whining, and poking fun at Tau players.

There are plenty of people here who recommend playing what you like over the current hotness to maintain some level of interest in the faction. Furthermore, we all recognize that even if you play what you like (say Grey Knights) you may need to balance that by taking the best stuff in the book if you want a strong crunch even if you like certain units better.

This is largely why I tend to approach the game from more of a hobbyist approach: I can collect the stuff I like and even if my army isn't the most finely tuned I can still field what I enjoy fielding. Plus not grabbing the faction crutches has made me a better player over the years as I've learned to run stuff I like more effectively in order to play the mission and win more games.

I would also add that there are more than a few people who I've had conversations with along the lines of: "So, I've been looking at my first army, and I've zeroed it down to armies X, Y and Z based on the models/aesthetic. Beyond that, I'd be happy with any of them, so is there anything about the rules that might sway me?" In that case, if one of those armies is Grey Knights you bet I'm gonna try to warn them off.
On the other hand, if they were to say "I definitely want to play Grey Knights, they look really cool, how do they play?" then my answer is "Not great at a comp. level, but nothing we can't correct for in our friendlies." If they truly like the models, that should be enough. If not then they shouldn't be playing the army, nor should they be sneered at for wanting an army with a functional rule-set.

 rayphoton wrote:
Is it not kosher to make a IG army and call them chaos? (I ask cause that's what I'm doing)

Nobody is going to give you a hard time, though certain rules, options, or allies interactions may not work or be available.

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
I would also add that there are more than a few people who I've had conversations with along the lines of: "So, I've been looking at my first army, and I've zeroed it down to armies X, Y and Z based on the models/aesthetic. Beyond that, I'd be happy with any of them, so is there anything about the rules that might sway me?" In that case, if one of those armies is Grey Knights you bet I'm gonna try to warn them off.
On the other hand, if they were to say "I definitely want to play Grey Knights, they look really cool, how do they play?" then my answer is "Not great at a comp. level, but nothing we can't correct for in our friendlies." If they truly like the models, that should be enough. If not then they shouldn't be playing the army, nor should they be sneered at for wanting an army with a functional rule-set.

Yeah, some people will play anything regardless, but if they want sometbing that plays well, noting that factor is totally valid, and being stuck with an army that doesnt play well is a huge turn off for most people even if its of secondary importance.

Y'all can find as many ways as you like to excuse willful ignorance. None of them wash.

The information is out there. Don't cry later on because you chose to remain ignorant.

Caveat Emptor is a thing for a reason..

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Y'all can find as many ways as you like to excuse willful ignorance. None of them wash.

The information is out there. Don't cry later on because you chose to remain ignorant.

Caveat Emptor is a thing for a reason..

There is willful ignorance and then their is unwillful ignorance. A lot of new players suffer from the later instead of the former.

That said, hobby vets who know the game better should be steering new players away from the duds and more towards armies they like, so you can argue it's a community problem that extends past the internet.

Herbington wrote:

Karol wrote:

You got something in return; you got a bunch of miniatures.

If something doesn't work, then it is not a thing. If someone sold you a care and forgot to mention the engine isn't actualy in the car, you would expect a refund. Or at least feel cheated.

I would have no right to feel cheated if I didn't check under the hood prior to purchase.

I did. On polish forums the advice was to buy a 1100$ army, which I couldn't afford. On 4chan people just insulted me. Then I found about this forum. I never played table top games before, and the friends that did, that told me to start playing had no such problems with their armies. Or the problems were not visible at the time of me starting. The guy that played BA quit for example, after the deep strike FAQs. At the store I didn't knew any of the vets, and all the info I got from the store owner was that I need 2000pts to play the game. No where on the GW site or anywhere else did I find someone saying that GK are unplayable. In fact it there was little to no info about them, specially in polish.

Also even here people weren't very specific on how bad GK had. When I came to this forum, people said they are hard to play, that it depends on the meta, that I will have to wait for FAQ changes etc. I expected that this ment GK were like a bottom mid tier MtG deck. Destroy by any real tournament deck, that probablly costs 10 times as much, but still fun to play on sundays with some friends. No told me GK are unplayable, till after I got the army, played 4-5 games and started to ask question about what am missing from the list.

Karol wrote:

Herbington wrote:

Karol wrote:

You got something in return; you got a bunch of miniatures.

If something doesn't work, then it is not a thing. If someone sold you a care and forgot to mention the engine isn't actualy in the car, you would expect a refund. Or at least feel cheated.

I would have no right to feel cheated if I didn't check under the hood prior to purchase.

I did. On polish forums the advice was to buy a 1100$ army, which I couldn't afford. On 4chan people just insulted me. Then I found about this forum. I never played table top games before, and the friends that did, that told me to start playing had no such problems with their armies. Or the problems were not visible at the time of me starting. The guy that played BA quit for example, after the deep strike FAQs. At the store I didn't knew any of the vets, and all the info I got from the store owner was that I need 2000pts to play the game. No where on the GW site or anywhere else did I find someone saying that GK are unplayable. In fact it there was little to no info about them, specially in polish.

Also even here people weren't very specific on how bad GK had. When I came to this forum, people said they are hard to play, that it depends on the meta, that I will have to wait for FAQ changes etc. I expected that this ment GK were like a bottom mid tier MtG deck. Destroy by any real tournament deck, that probablly costs 10 times as much, but still fun to play on sundays with some friends. No told me GK are unplayable, till after I got the army, played 4-5 games and started to ask question about what am missing from the list.

As a rule, 4chan insults everyone. It's their way of being edgy and inclusive all at the same time.

GK are casually playable, but they are the lowest possible tier right now. I wouldn't call them completely unplayable, but competetive play is a different story.

The thing is, no one on here knows what gets played in your local meta, or how CA or FAQs are going to change any army. Heck, my GSC just got popped in the gob by the change to reserves affecting their Cult Ambush and I'm still building the army regardless. Point is we all get surprises and it's up to us as individuals if we keep on playing the army that way.

If your only enjoyment in the game is winning games, then you're going to struggle quite a bit at the start regardless. No player becomes great overnight, and while your army choice can make it harder to win, it doesn't change that fact at the end of the day.

And in the meantime, have you considered proxying your army as Vanilla Marines or Deathwatch to try something else out without dropping the cash on a new army right away?

 Overread wrote:

1) Change to a different hobby - put the models and tools in a box and try something else. Sports, walking, drawing, writing, reading etc.... Ergo you try out something else. The money on the first hobby isn't wasted, its just invested into something you're not using right now and which you can always come back too.

2) Try something different within the hobby. You might start converting; or a new paint scheme; or a new army. IF you've not bought any new models for your current army in a long while you might buy some to change your army composition etc...
This can often work when you're just in a small bored phase and you do something a little different. Games like Necromunda and Bloodbowl are ideal GW examples of smaller games many shift to for a change in pace. Kill Team is another; or you could try Infinity or Malifaux if they are played locally - again low investment changes within the hobby to give you renewed interest.

My problems is I put all my money in to w40k. I can't start buying books or other games, because I don't have a way to buy more stuff. I asked about kill team or the AoS version of it, but no body plays it around here. It is only w40k, AoS/9th age, infinity and warmachine. Some dudes play wwII skirmish games, but it is in a different district. They are supporters of other team, and I would risk being beat up every time I go to play. Plus I doubt, I could use the GK models in it.

Thank you for explaining the fallacy thing.

The exact circumstances are unfortunate, because I think that came from people forgetting how fundamentally stupid the GK codex is. As a Necron player, I'd prefer a minor re-write, but sufficient point drops in CA will do just fine. You could crater the costs in the GK codex, and the design of that codex would still be too much for me.