Acts of Faith nerfed to near uselessness. SOB are Dead on Arrival.
This is assuming that they use the same type of limits that the Psychic Powers they are aping have. If you're able to just burn as many Faith Points as you want until you pass then that's fine.
BaconCatBug wrote: Acts of Faith nerfed to near uselessness. SOB are Dead on Arrival.
You could always play with the rules when CA comes out, get some actual experience in with the changes and provide GW with feedback so that they use this Beta period for its intended purpose and adjust rules where they need adjusting for the actual codex when it drops next year?
BaconCatBug wrote: Acts of Faith nerfed to near uselessness. SOB are Dead on Arrival.
You could always play with the rules when CA comes out, get some actual experience in with the changes and provide GW with feedback so that they use this Beta period for its intended purpose and adjust rules where they need adjusting for the actual codex when it drops next year?
But that would make these BETA rules and we're not paying GW for BETA ru... oh.
Holy hell. I need to buy more storm bolter sisters. That strategem looks great. Especially if Acts of Faith have been moved to occurring in-phase; that's a lot of hurt.
Also, is the AoF roll a D6 or 2d6? If it's a D6, it's basically a not-happening anymore, and a pretty low probability of success for what the IG does automatically. Especially if the Faith Points are generated as a per-game pool, as opposed to a per-turn pool.
I look forward to playing, and seeing how things shake out. I suspect that Ebon Chalice or Our Martyred Lady will be best; Martyred Lady because of Saint Celestine, and Ebon Chalice because +1 to AoF seems fairly essential. That said Valorous Heart does not look great; and Bloody Rose is strictly ok.
BaconCatBug wrote: Acts of Faith nerfed to near uselessness. SOB are Dead on Arrival.
This is assuming that they use the same type of limits that the Psychic Powers they are aping have. If you're able to just burn as many Faith Points as you want until you pass then that's fine.
Not even psychic powers. It looks like it's a 1d6 roll. So they actually are useless. Even if you CAN spend multiple points, you'll burn your entire store on a single round of extra combat.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Holy hell. I need to buy more storm bolter sisters. That strategem looks great. Especially if Acts of Faith have been moved to occurring in-phase; that's a lot of hurt.
Also, is the AoF roll a D6 or 2d6? If it's a D6, it's basically a not-happening anymore, and a pretty low probability of success for what the IG does automatically.
I look forward to playing, and seeing how things shake out.
It doesn't actually say 1d6 or 2d6, but I am betting 1, unfortunately. That's the bugbear - the number of Faith Points you get scales with army size, now, but those faith points don't actually "do" anything.
But it looks like you can burn everything in one turn for a huge alpha. Might even be worth using a CP to reroll the AoF turn 1 then burn the 3CP strat to spread that one buff to the entire army, take Ebon Chalice to increase your odds.
The issue with this of course is range, so probably T2 is the earliest you get in range for your firepower to go off.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Holy hell. I need to buy more storm bolter sisters. That strategem looks great. Especially if Acts of Faith have been moved to occurring in-phase; that's a lot of hurt.
Also, is the AoF roll a D6 or 2d6? If it's a D6, it's basically a not-happening anymore, and a pretty low probability of success for what the IG does automatically.
I look forward to playing, and seeing how things shake out.
It doesn't actually say 1d6 or 2d6, but I am betting 1, unfortunately. That's the bugbear - the number of Faith Points you get scales with army size, now, but those faith points don't actually "do" anything.
If you get 1 faith point for every 10 infantry EVERY turn AND can spend multiple points trying to get the same AoF, the system might work with 1d6. With anything less than that you'll likely see a greater improvement in the army's performance by simply not bothering to remember any of the AoF rules and focusing on getting the rest of the armies rules memorized more completely.
So Acts of Faith are sort of like IG orders, but they can fail to work at all? Sounds terrible.
Maybe giving each ability a Faith Point cost and having them work every time would be better. But that's stepping on CP territory a bit much I suppose. Or have a character lead an act of faith, and one nearby unit gains the benefit per point spent; like "IG Orders with benefits".
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Holy hell. I need to buy more storm bolter sisters. That strategem looks great. Especially if Acts of Faith have been moved to occurring in-phase; that's a lot of hurt.
Also, is the AoF roll a D6 or 2d6? If it's a D6, it's basically a not-happening anymore, and a pretty low probability of success for what the IG does automatically.
I look forward to playing, and seeing how things shake out.
It doesn't actually say 1d6 or 2d6, but I am betting 1, unfortunately. That's the bugbear - the number of Faith Points you get scales with army size, now, but those faith points don't actually "do" anything.
Yeah. The list to be is probably going to be massed Ebon Chalice infantry with Imagifiers [I'd put thrones on the Simulacrum Imperalis or Laud Hailers buffing the roll], since power armor horde isn't actually bad; and double-moving double-shooting power armor horde is outright scary sounding. Basically plod a big giant block of Battle Sisters up the board and gun down anything within 12". It doesn't sound terrible, but it sound way less fun than Mech Dominions.
If we're going back to faith points as a finite game resource; I'd bet there's a good chance that there's a way to generate faith on the destruction of units. An unhealthy obsession with martyrdom is a hallmark of our army's theme.
Also, given that the Valorous Heart's theme is stoic feel-no-pain, Bloody Rose is being stabby, and Ebon Chalice is being the most faithful, I'm cautiously hopeful that my order's trait is like Tallarn, since St. Silvana was noted for being the first to take to crusading.
It depends on what the Ordo Dialogous sister and Simulacrum Imperialis do. If each of those buff the roll with a +1 and/or a reroll, then you can make Acts of Faith work, even if the die roll is only a D6.
The new system might very well be terrible. But I'll wait to see the whole thing before I damn it.
Quickjager wrote: But it looks like you can burn everything in one turn for a huge alpha. Might even be worth using a CP to reroll the AoF turn 1 then burn the 3CP strat to spread that one buff to the entire army, take Ebon Chalice to increase your odds.
The issue with this of course is range, so probably T2 is the earliest you get in range for your firepower to go off.
Still worth.
Not really, every weapon that you'd want to use an AoF on has a 12" range and if fighting again is a 5+ then shooting again is almost certainly 6. You'd have to use every single AoF point to reliably get the AoF off ASSUMING a reroll, you'd have to have a character within 6" of multiple squads who are themselves within 12" of multiple targets. That's a tall ask considering the good SoB shooting unit has scout and SoB character outside of Celestine only move 6.
It's not...necessarily the worst rule in the game, but it's a lot worse than the old system was.
Kcalehc wrote: So Acts of Faith are sort of like IG orders, but they can fail to work at all? Sounds terrible.
Maybe giving each ability a Faith Point cost and having them work every time would be better. But that's stepping on CP territory a bit much I suppose. Or have a character lead an act of faith, and one nearby unit gains the benefit per point spent; like "IG Orders with benefits".
Or maybe the system we already had.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.
Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.
Not when you realize the rest of the army is non-functional around it.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Holy hell. I need to buy more storm bolter sisters. That strategem looks great. Especially if Acts of Faith have been moved to occurring in-phase; that's a lot of hurt.
Also, is the AoF roll a D6 or 2d6? If it's a D6, it's basically a not-happening anymore, and a pretty low probability of success for what the IG does automatically.
I look forward to playing, and seeing how things shake out.
It doesn't actually say 1d6 or 2d6, but I am betting 1, unfortunately. That's the bugbear - the number of Faith Points you get scales with army size, now, but those faith points don't actually "do" anything.
Yeah. The list to be is probably going to be massed Ebon Chalice infantry with Imagifiers [I'd put thrones on the Simulacrum Imperalis or Laud Hailers buffing the roll], since power armor horde isn't actually bad; and double-moving double-shooting power armor horde is outright scary sounding.
If we're going back to faith points as a finite game resource; I'd bet there's a good chance that there's a way to generate faith on the destruction of units. An unhealthy obsession with martyrdom is a hallmark of our army's theme.
My greatest fear is that SoB become an infantry horde army. Infantry heavy armies are the worst, most boring armies in the game.
Quickjager wrote: But it looks like you can burn everything in one turn for a huge alpha. Might even be worth using a CP to reroll the AoF turn 1 then burn the 3CP strat to spread that one buff to the entire army, take Ebon Chalice to increase your odds.
The issue with this of course is range, so probably T2 is the earliest you get in range for your firepower to go off.
Still worth.
Not really, every weapon that you'd want to use an AoF on has a 12" range and if fighting again is a 5+ then shooting again is almost certainly 6. You'd have to use every single AoF point to reliably get the AoF off ASSUMING a reroll, you'd have to have a character within 6" of multiple squads who are themselves within 12" of multiple targets. That's a tall ask considering the good SoB shooting unit has scout and SoB character outside of Celestine only move 6.
It's not...necessarily the worst rule in the game, but it's a lot worse than the old system was.
If we're making assumptions like that then, the army obviously has access to rerolls of AoF dice without a CP; I'd go so far as to say Celestine probably autopasses her Aof most likely. Who is likely an auto include in a SoB army. Besides we already had this discussion of how easy it is to daisychain months ago in regards to IG officers. I agree the optimal range is 12 inch though.
Ironically my Sororitas is a foot infantry horde. But still, the Acts of Faith thing is a bummer.
I'm worried that people who don't play Sororitas will call for the single stratagem to be nerfed, and drown out the people who do play the army who would buff other areas.
IOW I don't want Sororitas to become a one-trick pony around the single good strat we've seen so far, and then have that get nerfed for the 'dex with no further buffs. We'll see.
Umm...in case anyone didn't notice. For 3 CP you can activate shoot twice act of faith (in a 6 inch aura) So basically your whole army can try to shoot twice. Plus if it's a squad with 10 storm bolters and using the 1 CP stratagem to do 2 flat with AP -2. Just kiss your army goodbye. These leaks are incredibly powerful.
Question. Does the Ebon Chalice order get +1 to their devotion roll? They called it +1 to Test of faith.
We know for a fact that Psybolts is really really bad. Shouldn't that mean we want new but similarly themed stratagems to not be Psybolts?
-2 ap +1 damage for 1 point / compared to +1 Str -1 AP for 2 points. They should just hotfix psybolt ammo to be 1 CP if they are going to make a strat like this AND the blessed bolts will still be better.
Assuming sisters can still shoot out of phase, it'll be fun to watch someone pay 3CP and shoot with their entire army before the round starts. That's not broken at all.
Xenomancers wrote: Umm...in case anyone didn't notice. For 3 CP you can activate shoot twice act of faith (in a 6 inch aura) So basically your whole army can try to shoot twice. Plus if it's a squad with 10 storm bolters and using the 1 CP stratagem to do 2 flat with AP -2. Just kiss your army goodbye. These leaks are incredibly powerful.
Question. Does the Ebon Chalice order get +1 to their devotion roll? They called it +1 to Test of faith.
1) To use the 3CP stratagem you have to get the Act of Faith off on the Character first, so still that 5+ or 6+ or whatever.
2) 10 Storm Bolter squads are literally impossible. Dominions can have exactly 5, and that's the most we'll have in a squad. Meanwhile, GK can have 10. If we could have 10 Storm Bolter squads, I'd agree with you.
EDIT: Additionally, there's no reason to suspect a shoot twice AOF still exists aside from speculation.
If we're making assumptions like that then, the army obviously has access to rerolls of AoF dice without a CP; I'd go so far as to say Celestine probably autopasses her Aof most likely. Who is likely an auto include in a SoB army. Besides we already had this discussion of how easy it is to daisychain months ago in regards to IG officers. I agree the optimal range is 12 inch though.
Stop Xeno, it hurts.
The strategem requires the unit to pass a roll, so if St. C just does and doesn't roll, she can't prok it for the stratagem. That's besides the point, though, because Celestine is Our Martyred Lady not Ebon Chalice, and I'd put good money of there being means to buff that roll; almost certainly Simulacrum Imperalii and potentially Laud Hailers. I am almost certain that we're going to see an Act of Faith centric Ebon Chalice footslogging horde that walks up the board and murderizes everything that it can get within 12" of on turn 2 or 3. Power armor is actually pretty viable if you have enough of it on the board; and we have superior special weapon density to Space Marines.
That said, traditional sisters mechanized infantry will probably either disappear, like most other mechanized infantry lists, or will basically work as if Acts of Faith did not exist. This set up is really bad for Seraphim, basically ignored by Dominions, and really good for massed infantry.
Wayniac wrote: That stratagem looks ridiculous OP when you remember that there exist CP batteries.
SoB ARE a CP battery. Our battalion is only like 45pts more expensive than the loyal 32 and is A LOT more useful. As much as I don't like the AoF changes, the Strats are great.
We know for a fact that Psybolts is really really bad. Shouldn't that mean we want new but similarly themed stratagems to not be Psybolts?
-2 ap +1 damage for 1 point / compared to +1 Str -1 AP for 2 points. They should just hotfix psybolt ammo to be 1 CP if they are going to make a strat like this AND the blessed bolts will still be better.
Blessed bolts is just absurd.
It makes sense that a 60 point unit should be able to cleave through a terminator squad?
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Terminators.
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Primaris.
Xenomancers wrote: Umm...in case anyone didn't notice. For 3 CP you can activate shoot twice act of faith (in a 6 inch aura) So basically your whole army can try to shoot twice. Plus if it's a squad with 10 storm bolters and using the 1 CP stratagem to do 2 flat with AP -2. Just kiss your army goodbye. These leaks are incredibly powerful.
Question. Does the Ebon Chalice order get +1 to their devotion roll? They called it +1 to Test of faith.
The only weapon SoB actually use that isn't a 12" range is a heavy bolter. We're not slinging lascannons or anything. Plus, with the way AoFs work, it'll take every point you have for the whole game to do it once. Most likely.
Xenomancers wrote: Umm...in case anyone didn't notice. For 3 CP you can activate shoot twice act of faith (in a 6 inch aura) So basically your whole army can try to shoot twice. Plus if it's a squad with 10 storm bolters and using the 1 CP stratagem to do 2 flat with AP -2. Just kiss your army goodbye. These leaks are incredibly powerful.
Question. Does the Ebon Chalice order get +1 to their devotion roll? They called it +1 to Test of faith.
1) To use the 3CP stratagem you have to get the Act of Faith off on the Character first, so still that 5+ or 6+ or whatever.
2) 10 Storm Bolter squads are literally impossible. Dominions can have exactly 5, and that's the most we'll have in a squad. Meanwhile, GK can have 10. If we could have 10 Storm Bolter squads, I'd agree with you.
EDIT:
Additionally, there's no reason to suspect a shoot twice AOF still exists aside from speculation.
That's weird - I thought Sisters had a full strombolter squad. Kind of like a vertren space marine squad.
We know for a fact that Psybolts is really really bad. Shouldn't that mean we want new but similarly themed stratagems to not be Psybolts?
-2 ap +1 damage for 1 point / compared to +1 Str -1 AP for 2 points. They should just hotfix psybolt ammo to be 1 CP if they are going to make a strat like this AND the blessed bolts will still be better.
Blessed bolts is just absurd.
It makes sense that a 60 point unit should be able to cleave through a terminator squad?
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Terminators.
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Primaris.
For less than half the points.
Except that you can have 3 Disintegrator Ravagers and save your CP for something else. They are also far, far more durable than 5 Dominions, and have a longer range with greater mobility.
You can only have 1 Blessed Bolts squad per shooting phase.
Xenomancers wrote: Umm...in case anyone didn't notice. For 3 CP you can activate shoot twice act of faith (in a 6 inch aura) So basically your whole army can try to shoot twice. Plus if it's a squad with 10 storm bolters and using the 1 CP stratagem to do 2 flat with AP -2. Just kiss your army goodbye. These leaks are incredibly powerful.
Question. Does the Ebon Chalice order get +1 to their devotion roll? They called it +1 to Test of faith.
1) To use the 3CP stratagem you have to get the Act of Faith off on the Character first, so still that 5+ or 6+ or whatever.
2) 10 Storm Bolter squads are literally impossible. Dominions can have exactly 5, and that's the most we'll have in a squad. Meanwhile, GK can have 10. If we could have 10 Storm Bolter squads, I'd agree with you.
EDIT:
Additionally, there's no reason to suspect a shoot twice AOF still exists aside from speculation.
That's weird - I thought Sisters had a full strombolter squad. Kind of like a vertren space marine squad.
Nope.
They can get 5 storm bolters in a 5 girl squad, which can look like a full stormbolter squad right up until you buy the sixth-through-tenth girl and realize they're far more like CSM havocs (max 4 specials per squad plus the Sergeant's weapon) than Sternguard.
We know for a fact that Psybolts is really really bad. Shouldn't that mean we want new but similarly themed stratagems to not be Psybolts?
-2 ap +1 damage for 1 point / compared to +1 Str -1 AP for 2 points. They should just hotfix psybolt ammo to be 1 CP if they are going to make a strat like this AND the blessed bolts will still be better.
Blessed bolts is just absurd.
It makes sense that a 60 point unit should be able to cleave through a terminator squad?
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Terminators.
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Primaris.
Ironically, this may actually be an attempt to give Sororitas plasma-like firepower without actually giving them plasma guns (though it doesn't actually do that as Blessed Ammo storm bolters aren't quite as good as plasma guns).
Wayniac wrote: That stratagem looks ridiculous OP when you remember that there exist CP batteries.
SoB ARE a CP battery. Our battalion is only like 45pts more expensive than the loyal 32 and is A LOT more useful. As much as I don't like the AoF changes, the Strats are great.
We'll hit a shortage of HQ's. Most CP we can get natively is 13, from a Brigade and another detachment led by Celestine. I'm also hoping for a Palantine lieutenant-character come eventually when we get models.
Xenomancers wrote:Umm...in case anyone didn't notice. For 3 CP you can activate shoot twice act of faith (in a 6 inch aura) So basically your whole army can try to shoot twice. Plus if it's a squad with 10 storm bolters and using the 1 CP stratagem to do 2 flat with AP -2. Just kiss your army goodbye. These leaks are incredibly powerful.
There is no such thing as a 10 SB squad. 5 max. They MIGHT shoot twice though, depending if there is a "shoot twice in the shooting phase" act of faith.
Edit : Ok, you've been corrected o nthat already, sorry
Marmatag wrote:Assuming sisters can still shoot out of phase, it'll be fun to watch someone pay 3CP and shoot with their entire army before the round starts. That's not broken at all.
We only saw one AoF and it wasn't out of phase (fight twice in cc), pretty sure it will be the same for anything else SoBs might get.
Wayniac wrote: That stratagem looks ridiculous OP when you remember that there exist CP batteries.
SoB ARE a CP battery. Our battalion is only like 45pts more expensive than the loyal 32 and is A LOT more useful. As much as I don't like the AoF changes, the Strats are great.
We'll hit a shortage of HQ's. Most CP we can get natively is 13, from a Brigade and another detachment led by Celestine. I'm also hoping for a Palantine lieutenant-character come eventually when we get models.
Well, remember you can get 16 because you get the +3 for existing.
We know for a fact that Psybolts is really really bad. Shouldn't that mean we want new but similarly themed stratagems to not be Psybolts?
-2 ap +1 damage for 1 point / compared to +1 Str -1 AP for 2 points. They should just hotfix psybolt ammo to be 1 CP if they are going to make a strat like this AND the blessed bolts will still be better.
Blessed bolts is just absurd.
It makes sense that a 60 point unit should be able to cleave through a terminator squad?
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Terminators.
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Primaris.
For less than half the points.
Charge em. The gun barely does any damage outside of 12" even with the strat and SoB are made of tissue paper.
We know for a fact that Psybolts is really really bad. Shouldn't that mean we want new but similarly themed stratagems to not be Psybolts?
-2 ap +1 damage for 1 point / compared to +1 Str -1 AP for 2 points. They should just hotfix psybolt ammo to be 1 CP if they are going to make a strat like this AND the blessed bolts will still be better.
Blessed bolts is just absurd.
It makes sense that a 60 point unit should be able to cleave through a terminator squad?
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Terminators.
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Primaris.
For less than half the points.
Charge em. The gun barely does any damage outside of 12" even with the strat and SoB are made of tissue paper.
Have you played 8th edition? Serious question.
You can bring a full sisters army, and also take any screens, knights, etc, you want. On top of the sisters. Because they are so cheap.
Xenomancers wrote:
That's weird - I thought Sisters had a full strombolter squad. Kind of like a vertren space marine squad.
Dominions, but it's 5 max, everybody after that doesn't get a special weapon and is just a warm body.
ERJAK wrote:
The only weapon SoB actually use that isn't a 12" range is a heavy bolter. We're not slinging lascannons or anything. Plus, with the way AoFs work, it'll take every point you have for the whole game to do it once. Most likely.
I've seen a lot of copy-pasta there, like the ever present 6+++ Order trait, stuff that is universally regarded as "meh, at least not TOTALLY useless".
Also, remember that the Ebon Chalice adds 1 to all Faith rolls. Even if the Simulacrum is +1, that's faith rolls going off on 3+. That one previewed, The Passion, may also be one of the harder ones to pull off, and many of the normal ones that are used may be 4s (3 with Ebon Chalice, 2 with the Simulacrum and Order).
I'll be playing Bloody Rose, but it looks like Ebon Chalice may be the "go to" Order for those who want to compete, just to make the faith much more reliable. Dialogus may be an aura to allow Faith rerolls, I doubt they'll double up on +1s, that just seems bleh for design. But Ebon Chalice with Simulacrum being escorted by a Dialogus (if that's how they shake out)... sounds like a pretty solid way to rip off Acts of Faith fairly consistently.
Suffer not the Witch is going to be hilarious. Grey Knights and Thousand Sons both are going to be very not happy. Then there's everything else that comes up as "situational", like Dominions or Seraphim getting into melta range of a Daemon Prince or something leading more from the front.
I saw Blessed Bolts and laughed. I played with a Grey Knight Strike Squad of 10 guys using Teleport Strike to get down to the ground in Stormbolter range with Psybolt Ammo to basically be a bunch of Heavy Bolter shots melting something in a turn. It was for funsies, and I landed near a chaff line so I never used Psybolt Ammo to melt the Cultists... but I always felt that Stratagem should have either been a unit upgrade, or 1 CP. I think Blessed Bolts is going to be great, but ultimately won't be considered stupidly OP (oh hi, Veterans of the Long War). The most you can get pelted with is 5 Stormbolters in a squad (Dominions with a Sergeant toting one, too). And while that one target will most likely get melted... I'm pretty sure those stormbolter gals are toast, too. I'm also not sure how that'll work with Repressors, so... figure that mess out when we get there on if the unit embarked can use said Stratagem to level stuff from the security of a Repressor (but a BSS with 3 stormbolters costs less than half of a Repressor, so I doubt you'll see that tactic, too much, as you just spam more BSS with Stormbolters for efficiency/CP).
Warlord trait and relic were very "this is what I expect". Not too powerful, but still could have a place in the right army. So kinda par for design I guess.
Penitent Engine rules look just enough to make it worth the points it costs now, but with things trending down for points in Chapter Approved, it may also get a point decrease. That'd make them super useful, I think.
Overall, seems very "in-line" with what I've seen power-wise for quite a few factions. Like we've seen what... 4 stratagems from Sororitas, and only 1 will likely see regular usage (Blessed Bolts). The other three are either situational or incredibly hard to pull off in a meaningful manner? 3 Order traits... one of which deals with faith, one is the generic have a 6+++, and the other helps the army fight back for half a turn in melee. Again, not overtly broken, but all have a possible place.
Marmatag wrote: Yeah sure, when plasma guns start putting out 4 shots without overheating.
Also keep in mind that Sisters don't get rerolls on their short range weapons because our characters can't keep up with dominions. Every other army rocks around with reroll to hit, reroll to wound all the dam time.
Xenomancers wrote: Umm...in case anyone didn't notice. For 3 CP you can activate shoot twice act of faith (in a 6 inch aura) So basically your whole army can try to shoot twice. Plus if it's a squad with 10 storm bolters and using the 1 CP stratagem to do 2 flat with AP -2. Just kiss your army goodbye. These leaks are incredibly powerful.
Question. Does the Ebon Chalice order get +1 to their devotion roll? They called it +1 to Test of faith.
1) To use the 3CP stratagem you have to get the Act of Faith off on the Character first, so still that 5+ or 6+ or whatever.
2) 10 Storm Bolter squads are literally impossible. Dominions can have exactly 5, and that's the most we'll have in a squad. Meanwhile, GK can have 10. If we could have 10 Storm Bolter squads, I'd agree with you.
EDIT:
Additionally, there's no reason to suspect a shoot twice AOF still exists aside from speculation.
That's weird - I thought Sisters had a full strombolter squad. Kind of like a vertren space marine squad.
Dominions, but it's 5 max, everybody after that doesn't get a special weapon and is just a warm body.
ERJAK wrote:
Xenomancers wrote: Umm...in case anyone didn't notice. For 3 CP you can activate shoot twice act of faith (in a 6 inch aura) So basically your whole army can try to shoot twice. Plus if it's a squad with 10 storm bolters and using the 1 CP stratagem to do 2 flat with AP -2. Just kiss your army goodbye. These leaks are incredibly powerful.
Question. Does the Ebon Chalice order get +1 to their devotion roll? They called it +1 to Test of faith.
The only weapon SoB actually use that isn't a 12" range is a heavy bolter. We're not slinging lascannons or anything. Plus, with the way AoFs work, it'll take every point you have for the whole game to do it once. Most likely.
Also, the Exorcist [48"] and Multimelta [24"]
Exorcist doesn't have AoF, no one brings multimeltas.
We know for a fact that Psybolts is really really bad. Shouldn't that mean we want new but similarly themed stratagems to not be Psybolts?
-2 ap +1 damage for 1 point / compared to +1 Str -1 AP for 2 points. They should just hotfix psybolt ammo to be 1 CP if they are going to make a strat like this AND the blessed bolts will still be better.
Blessed bolts is just absurd.
It makes sense that a 60 point unit should be able to cleave through a terminator squad?
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Terminators.
This is more efficient than a Disintigrator Ravager against Primaris.
Hey honestly I am happy for you sisters players. I will likely build an army with the new models when they come out. I'd just like to see some action from GW. If you are going to make a stratagem like blessed bolts which is just a copy cat of psybolt ammo - could you also fix psybolt ammo which is close to 1/3 of the power of blessed bolts?
I've seen a lot of copy-pasta there, like the ever present 6+++ Order trait, stuff that is universally regarded as "meh, at least not TOTALLY useless".
Also, remember that the Ebon Chalice adds 1 to all Faith rolls. Even if the Simulacrum is +1, that's faith rolls going off on 3+. That one previewed, The Passion, may also be one of the harder ones to pull off, and many of the normal ones that are used may be 4s (3 with Ebon Chalice, 2 with the Simulacrum and Order).
I'll be playing Bloody Rose, but it looks like Ebon Chalice may be the "go to" Order for those who want to compete, just to make the faith much more reliable. Dialogus may be an aura to allow Faith rerolls, I doubt they'll double up on +1s, that just seems bleh for design. But Ebon Chalice with Simulacrum being escorted by a Dialogus (if that's how they shake out)... sounds like a pretty solid way to rip off Acts of Faith fairly consistently.
Suffer not the Witch is going to be hilarious. Grey Knights and Thousand Sons both are going to be very not happy. Then there's everything else that comes up as "situational", like Dominions or Seraphim getting into melta range of a Daemon Prince or something leading more from the front.
I saw Blessed Bolts and laughed. I played with a Grey Knight Strike Squad of 10 guys using Teleport Strike to get down to the ground in Stormbolter range with Psybolt Ammo to basically be a bunch of Heavy Bolter shots melting something in a turn. It was for funsies, and I landed near a chaff line so I never used Psybolt Ammo to melt the Cultists... but I always felt that Stratagem should have either been a unit upgrade, or 1 CP. I think Blessed Bolts is going to be great, but ultimately won't be considered stupidly OP (oh hi, Veterans of the Long War). The most you can get pelted with is 5 Stormbolters in a squad (Dominions with a Sergeant toting one, too). And while that one target will most likely get melted... I'm pretty sure those stormbolter gals are toast, too. I'm also not sure how that'll work with Repressors, so... figure that mess out when we get there on if the unit embarked can use said Stratagem to level stuff from the security of a Repressor (but a BSS with 3 stormbolters costs less than half of a Repressor, so I doubt you'll see that tactic, too much, as you just spam more BSS with Stormbolters for efficiency/CP).
Warlord trait and relic were very "this is what I expect". Not too powerful, but still could have a place in the right army. So kinda par for design I guess.
Penitent Engine rules look just enough to make it worth the points it costs now, but with things trending down for points in Chapter Approved, it may also get a point decrease. That'd make them super useful, I think.
Overall, seems very "in-line" with what I've seen power-wise for quite a few factions. Like we've seen what... 4 stratagems from Sororitas, and only 1 will likely see regular usage (Blessed Bolts). The other three are either situational or incredibly hard to pull off in a meaningful manner? 3 Order traits... one of which deals with faith, one is the generic have a 6+++, and the other helps the army fight back for half a turn in melee. Again, not overtly broken, but all have a possible place.
Just to chime in a bit, can't target units inside a vehicle for Stratagems, so that'll be fine.
The big problem I have with Simulcrums and Dialogus is that they'll almost certainly be an aura...which means they'll never be usable on Dominions and they won't effect seraphim past turn one. Which is the same problem that Imagifiers had before.
Marmatag wrote: That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.
Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.
Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.
I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.
If you're making an army around Acts of Faith, you will be walking and hanging out with your Canonesses.
That said; almost all of this is going to fall flat on traditional mechanized sisters armies; who are probably going to ditch the faith support and count on Immolators and Repressors and souped-in knights and guards.
20 shots max at 12" per shooting phase requiring 1CP, hitting on 3, wounding at least on 4 (against target worth the AP-2 Damage 2).
Not sure imperial soup is going to change stuff around to allow picking that.
Edit : It's a good strat, it's not earth shattering.
Well with what they've shown so far I can confidently say the new sisters are somewhere between awesome and utterly crap. Still missing some fairly critical bits of information to see which way they've fallen.
dhallnet wrote: 20 shots max at 12" per shooting phase requiring 1CP, hitting on 3, wounding at least on 4 (against target worth the AP-2 Damage 2).
Not sure imperial soup is going to change stuff around to allow picking that.
Edit : It's a good strat, it's not earth shattering.
Double tap them with an Act of Faith, for 40. And use it on a squad of 20 BSS with 3 Storm Bolters, for 92 shots! Yikes!
That said; "remove that thing in particular" is pretty common, so I don't think the strategem is particularly egregious. It's just a lot better than the GK version; which I don't think is a useful complaint, because we know the GK one is really bad.
Marmatag wrote: I'll just soup them in with my Ultramarines, for example. Bobby G gives them rerolls.
Everyone has 180 points for the Loyal 32. Pay a little more for something far, far better.
And i will bet money sisters get new models or units with the codex, and aura based rerolls.
You're not listening.
Stormbolters and the other guns SoB use are a 12" Range and are on a unit with scout. We have character with rerolls, we just can't use them because they can't keep up with dominions SCOUT MOVES.
Your BobbyG idea is STUPID because, again, 12" range is necessary to get more than 10 Shots out of the Stormbolters. You won't be able to castle AND you'll be wasting your scout move.
Even if you bring BSS, you have to bring 6+ Units to have any survive long enough to close down on your opponent and they only get 3 stormbolters.
You really should play with/against the army before you start making up combos that don't work.
dhallnet wrote: 20 shots max at 12" per shooting phase requiring 1CP, hitting on 3, wounding at least on 4 (against target worth the AP-2 Damage 2). Not sure imperial soup is going to change stuff around to allow picking that.
Edit : It's a good strat, it's not earth shattering.
Double tap them with an Act of Faith, for 40. And use it on a squad of 20 BSS with 3 Storm Bolters, for 92 shots! Yikes!
That said; "remove that thing in particular" is pretty common, so I don't think the strategem is particularly egregious. It's just a lot better than the GK version; which I don't think is a useful complaint, because we know the GK one is really bad.
SoB can only go up into squads of 10 as of right now and only the shots from the stormbolters would even matter. No one cares about regular bolter shots.
If you're making an army around Acts of Faith, you will be walking and hanging out with your Canonesses.
That said; almost all of this is going to fall flat on traditional mechanized sisters armies; who are probably going to ditch the faith support and count on Immolators and Repressors and souped-in knights and guards.
They matter for the Stormbolter strat. Dominions on foot will never be good, even in an infantry spam list. Too obvious of a target, don't have ObSec. Regular BSS with the strat are w/e. They'll usually die before they hit 12" regardless.
dhallnet wrote: 20 shots max at 12" per shooting phase requiring 1CP, hitting on 3, wounding at least on 4 (against target worth the AP-2 Damage 2).
Not sure imperial soup is going to change stuff around to allow picking that.
Edit : It's a good strat, it's not earth shattering.
I don't think it will be that devastating at a competitive level - although with as yet unknown combinations of warlord traits, relics, other stratagems, acts of faith and order benefits it certainly could be. (Indeed I'd be amazed if Sisters are released entire "as is" rather than with new units, so this whole "dominions only have 5 stormbolters nah nah nah" may prove a red herring.
What it definitely does do however is put another nail through Primaris. Just the -2 AP would seem a potentially useful buff, why made it do 2 damage as well?
Also, that strategem doesn't have any good targets.
We can laugh at the potential damage, but there's nothing to shoot at to maximize that. It's basically good for ripping up Guardsmen, because despite the bonus damage, Storm Bolters still don't work on Knights.
Oddly, it's most useful against a mirror match. Space Marines are too infantry-light to make it worthwhile; Orks don't have saves or wounds to make it worthwhile, and it doesn't actually work on big tanks. It will work on DEldar tanks.
Quickjager wrote: Lol, I'm actually salty about the blessed bolts strat. Only 1 CP huh?
lol in deed. Still 1cp is a good stratagem am happy for sob players.
2) 10 Storm Bolter squads are literally impossible. Dominions can have exactly 5, and that's the most we'll have in a squad. Meanwhile, GK can have 10. If we could have 10 Storm Bolter squads, I'd agree with you.
We almost never run 10man squads though. They cost too much.
Wayniac wrote: That stratagem looks ridiculous OP when you remember that there exist CP batteries.
SoB ARE a CP battery. Our battalion is only like 45pts more expensive than the loyal 32 and is A LOT more useful. As much as I don't like the AoF changes, the Strats are great.
I might have to give that a try. I have a friend with a Sisters army she currently isn't using very much because she currently prefers Chaos Marines. Though if the beta codex is any good, she may go back to playing her Sisters for a while.
We can laugh at the potential damage, but there's nothing to shoot at to maximize that. It's basically good for ripping up Guardsmen, because despite the bonus damage, Storm Bolters still don't work on Knights.
Oddly, it's most useful against a mirror match. Space Marines are too infantry-light to make it worthwhile; Orks don't have saves or wounds to make it worthwhile, and it doesn't actually work on big tanks. It will work on DEldar tanks.
This is just bad info.
2 damage is a magic number that essentially nullifies feel no pain. You absolutely would use this when shooting at Catalyst Genestealers or FNP Orks.
These are fantastic against multi-wound models like Grotesques as well.
And we have already demonstrated that these are blisteringly efficient against Primaris and Terminators.
dhallnet wrote: 20 shots max at 12" per shooting phase requiring 1CP, hitting on 3, wounding at least on 4 (against target worth the AP-2 Damage 2).
Not sure imperial soup is going to change stuff around to allow picking that.
Edit : It's a good strat, it's not earth shattering.
I don't think it will be that devastating at a competitive level - although with as yet unknown combinations of warlord traits, relics, other stratagems, acts of faith and order benefits it certainly could be. (Indeed I'd be amazed if Sisters are released entire "as is" rather than with new units, so this whole "dominions only have 5 stormbolters nah nah nah" may prove a red herring.
What it definitely does do however is put another nail through Primaris. Just the -2 AP would seem a potentially useful buff, why made it do 2 damage as well?
I would be surprised if we get even one new unit. They aren't going to release minis before the codex so any new unit would be based on current metal sob range and nobody is going to buy any.
We can laugh at the potential damage, but there's nothing to shoot at to maximize that. It's basically good for ripping up Guardsmen, because despite the bonus damage, Storm Bolters still don't work on Knights.
Oddly, it's most useful against a mirror match. Space Marines are too infantry-light to make it worthwhile; Orks don't have saves or wounds to make it worthwhile, and it doesn't actually work on big tanks. It will work on DEldar tanks.
This is just bad info.
2 damage is a magic number that essentially nullifies feel no pain. You absolutely would use this when shooting at Catalyst Genestealers or FNP Orks.
These are fantastic against multi-wound models like Grotesques as well.
And we have already demonstrated that these are blisteringly efficient against Primaris and Terminators.
Who gives a f*** if it's effective against terminators? Terminators are total crap anyway.
It's a comment about how useful it is outside of theory. Obviously, there's an optimal target, but I don't think I've see that optimal target like, forever. It doesn't kill Knights; and its unnecessary to kill Orks. In short, it's good for killing guardsmen, and for killing us. If giant blob of Ebon Chalice infantry becomes really good; then we'll be really good and our strategem will be highly sought after for dealing with is. Otherwise, it's kind of niche.
It's strong, obviously; but it has occurred to me that it's not an every-turn-spend-CP-on thing. It's probably relatively less strong than Overlapping Fields of Fire; which I do use every turn, but more strong than Forward Observer, which I don't. It's definitely weaker than the Vostroyan 1CP +1 to hit one.
At the same time, while it's obviously better than Psybolts, why should we set the standard for effectiveness at an ability that's known to be total garbage.
It's a "kill that thing now" stratagem. In the scale of "kill that thing now" strategems; it's in the high end of the batch; I think. It's actually buff is strong, but it doesn't delete tanks and it doesn't buff heavy weapon carriers.
dhallnet wrote: I would be surprised if we get even one new unit. They aren't going to release minis before the codex so any new unit would be based on current metal sob range and nobody is going to buy any.
Sorry - yeah. I don't know what it is about Dakka, but for some reason I always post before finishing my thoughts and end up getting tenses mixed up.
I don't expect there will be new stuff in the beta rules.
When Sisters get a full release - late 2019 or whenever - I expect they will get new stuff.
And sure, by then stratagems like this could be changed, so I guess in someways its irrelevant, but not totally.
Marmatag wrote: That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.
Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.
Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.
I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.
Is it underwhelming for the points though?
Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.
So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.
Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.
We can laugh at the potential damage, but there's nothing to shoot at to maximize that. It's basically good for ripping up Guardsmen, because despite the bonus damage, Storm Bolters still don't work on Knights.
Oddly, it's most useful against a mirror match. Space Marines are too infantry-light to make it worthwhile; Orks don't have saves or wounds to make it worthwhile, and it doesn't actually work on big tanks. It will work on DEldar tanks.
This is just bad info.
2 damage is a magic number that essentially nullifies feel no pain. You absolutely would use this when shooting at Catalyst Genestealers or FNP Orks.
These are fantastic against multi-wound models like Grotesques as well.
And we have already demonstrated that these are blisteringly efficient against Primaris and Terminators.
Who gives a f*** if it's effective against terminators? Terminators are total crap anyway/
It's a comment about how useful it is outside of theory. Obviously, there's an optimal target, but I don't think I've see that optimal target like, forever. It doesn't kill Knights; and its unnecessary to kill Orks. In short, it's good for killing guardsmen, and for killing us. If giant blob of Ebon Chalice infantry becomes really good; then we'll be really good and our strategem will be highly sought after for dealing with is. Otherwise, it's kind of niche.
It's strong, obviously; but it has occurred to me that it's not an every-turn-spend-CP-on thing. It's probably relatively less strong than Overlapping Fields of Fire; which I do use every turn, but more strong than Forward Observer, which I don't.
No.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma. It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma. It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma. It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save) It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.
I hope, but I don't think so.
They would have trotted it out if it was; because the Exorcist is a favorite model that a lot of us are upset about it's general badness. It's an obvious target for hype building.
Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.
I hope, but I don't think so.
They would have trotted it out if it was; because the Exorcist is a favorite model that a lot of us are upset about it's general badness.
The whole line is getting new models and nothing was previewed basically. It'll be featured in another article just like what happens with every other faction: articles pop up and they feature a new unit.
Hell I would've put money that Engines were gonna be the previewed unit before even opening the link. My second guess would've been Seripham to really hone in the fact they have that one Strategem.
I currently play with lots of BSSMSU with Stormbolters, they are 51 points. They can lob some decent support fire down the field to support the forward units while moving up to secure midfield objectives. They also throw 16 shots at something that strays too close. 153 for 3 squads, plus another 90 or so for the two Canoness... gives you a BN for about 240 points. You lose Move, Move, Move! and FRFSRF, but gain a better gun and better save, and better HQs (Canoness with the relic blade is no joke when she dives into a unit swinging).
With Faith Pool scaling on models with the rule in the army, I think Repressors are going to stay like 1-3/army, depending on the army and player. Going full mech with Repressors is going to put a serious dent in the Faith Pool.
Back to Blessed Bolts. With the "Rule of 3" floating around, every squad of Dominions with Stormbolters is 1 less Dominion with Melta squad lurking around. Now, I know for my army that those Dominions do A LOT of lifting. Losing them for Stormbolters to use Blessed Bolts feels like I am totally losing on the trade. If I want to punish chaff, I play Immolators, Heavy Bolter Rets, MSUBSS with Stormbolters, etc. After the beta dex, I MAY play a squad of bolt pistol Seraphim for Burning Descent, but I've yet to get a solid run of them to see if the double-tapping pistols amounts for anything outside of "meh".
Honestly, Blessed Bolts is an AMAZING stratagem... and unless something crazy like Celestians get Stormbolters + Power Weapon (choices like Chaos Chosen), the stratagem won't be "steamroll opponent" type level. If you're getting a medium vehicle flattened with Blessed Bolts from Dominions... just be relieved that your army doesn't have to deal with those same Dominions armed with Melta, obliterating you from a high toughness transport rocking Heavy Flamers. Pretty sure you're still winning regardless of how strong Blessed Bolts is.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Who cares if it crushes W2 infantry? They're crap already.
Also, while you're excellenting picking out random things it's good compared too....
The real relevant units that are going to be out there to be targeted are going to be:
T3 [Guardsmen, Sisters], T4 [Orks, Marines], T6 [Ravagers], and T8 [Knights]
Which, as a back of the envelope estimation using of mean wounds:
Blessed Ammunition vs. Storm Bolter vs. Overloaded Plasmaguns
T3, 5+ [Guardsmen]: | 1.8 | 1.2 | [Not Relevant]
T4, 6+, 5+++ [Orks]: | 1.2 | 0.9 | [Not Relevant]
T3, 3+ [Sisters]: | 1.2 | 0.6 | 0.9
T6, 3+/5++ [Ravager]| 1.2 | 0.3 | 1.2
T8, 3+/5++ [Knights]: | 0.6 | N/A | 0.9
It's notably a major boost against some common units, but as noted, isn't really a super beneficial buff versus Orks and Knights. Ergo; it's relative awesome ubiquity will be somewhat dependent upon when AoF using footslogging sisters become a serious meta contributor [which, to be fair, seems possible].
Of other mention; the strategem's other relative weakness is that it doesn't extract a lot of value. Firstborn Pride can target a much more valuable unit of much greater power, like a tank or baneblade, to extract more value. Overlapping Fields of Fire essentially targets your whole army to really guarantee that what you want dies, though OFoF is 2CP. Anyway, I think it's good and very nice; but I don't think it's game breaking; unless your dream is an army of terminators, in which case it's been broken for the whole edition and I feel no pity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Purifying Tempest wrote: I currently play with lots of BSSMSU with Stormbolters, they are 51 points. They can lob some decent support fire down the field to support the forward units while moving up to secure midfield objectives. They also throw 16 shots at something that strays too close. 153 for 3 squads, plus another 90 or so for the two Canoness... gives you a BN for about 240 points. You lose Move, Move, Move! and FRFSRF, but gain a better gun and better save, and better HQs (Canoness with the relic blade is no joke when she dives into a unit swinging).
With Faith Pool scaling on models with the rule in the army, I think Repressors are going to stay like 1-3/army, depending on the army and player. Going full mech with Repressors is going to put a serious dent in the Faith Pool.
Back to Blessed Bolts. With the "Rule of 3" floating around, every squad of Dominions with Stormbolters is 1 less Dominion with Melta squad lurking around. Now, I know for my army that those Dominions do A LOT of lifting. Losing them for Stormbolters to use Blessed Bolts feels like I am totally losing on the trade. If I want to punish chaff, I play Immolators, Heavy Bolter Rets, MSUBSS with Stormbolters, etc. After the beta dex, I MAY play a squad of bolt pistol Seraphim for Burning Descent, but I've yet to get a solid run of them to see if the double-tapping pistols amounts for anything outside of "meh".
Honestly, Blessed Bolts is an AMAZING stratagem... and unless something crazy like Celestians get Stormbolters + Power Weapon (choices like Chaos Chosen), the stratagem won't be "steamroll opponent" type level. If you're getting a medium vehicle flattened with Blessed Bolts from Dominions... just be relieved that your army doesn't have to deal with those same Dominions armed with Melta, obliterating you from a high toughness transport rocking Heavy Flamers. Pretty sure you're still winning regardless of how strong Blessed Bolts is.
I don't think Canonesses are better than CC's. 15 points more per unit, and the CC is basically pure buff with no addition purchase like actually having fighty-bits.
Crimson wrote: Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.
It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.
Crimson wrote: Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.
It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.
Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.
Crimson wrote: Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.
It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.
Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.
Better effect, even, since plasma is "always-on" vs. this stratagem which is one-use per turn and can only be used while an expendable resource, CP, is available.
Imagine if you had to use a stratagem to overcharge plasma guns (but it didn't overheat)?
Crimson wrote: Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.
It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.
Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.
Better effect, even, since plasma is "always-on" vs. this stratagem which is one-use per turn and can only be used while an expendable resource, CP, is available.
Imagine if you had to use a stratagem to overcharge plasma guns (but it didn't overheat)?
Imagine if you remembered the price of Plasma Guns (13 points) compared to Storm Bolters (2 points).
Would it be possible for Blessed Bolts to be more balanced with a price hike for Doms/BSS? They seem to really be on a sweet spot regarding price/durability/firepower.
I think the problem with the strat is the 2 damage part. Taking that away, 1 CP to add AP-2 to a whole squad...aint bad. but that 2 damage part is just brutal.
Marmatag wrote: That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.
Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.
Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.
I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.
Is it underwhelming for the points though?
Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.
So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.
In a direct comparison like that, sure. However, the army doesn't otherwise have access to Razorbacks, squad carried plasma guns, heavy support units sporting quad lascannons, no super fast infantry units or deep strike, etc.
A T3 unit of sisters getting a strong bonus stratagem to otherwise lackluster weapons options, that have to be within 12" for optimal effect and can only be used once a turn in matched play, isnt going to terrify me just yet. Any opponent facing such a threat will quickly identify it, and it doesn't take much to mitigate or neutralize the one or two units in any army that will be able to really make good use of this stratagem.
If thats the most powerful thing this army will bring to the table, I don't think we'll see SoB breaking the meta much. Basically you're paying 1 CP to change the Storm Bolter into a Plasma Gun for a turn in terms of damage output against most targets. Powerful in certain circumstances, but within the greater context of the codex of the army and meta, probably not particularly astounding.
Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible, but within the context of sisters as we know them, what we have seen thus far, and the rest of the 8E meta, I'm not worried about it breaking the game.
Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.
Exorcists are literally the one thing in the entire army beyond Heavy Bolters able to reach out past 24", and the only one with big hard hitting ranged attacks aside from infantry carried meltaguns, and we don't know exactly how they'll end up. More to the point, they can't be expected to do everything all the time in every list.
Crimson wrote: Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.
It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.
Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.
Better effect, even, since plasma is "always-on" vs. this stratagem which is one-use per turn and can only be used while an expendable resource, CP, is available.
Imagine if you had to use a stratagem to overcharge plasma guns (but it didn't overheat)?
Imagine if you remembered the price of Plasma Guns (13 points) compared to Storm Bolters (2 points).
What's your point? That plasma shouldn't be 13 points or that Storm Bolters shouldn't be 2?
Does access to a stratagem that makes ≤5 Storm Bolters once per Battle Round pretend like they're really bad overcharged plasma guns somehow mean the Storm Bolter should be more than 2 points now?
Crimson wrote: Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.
It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.
Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.
Better effect, even, since plasma is "always-on" vs. this stratagem which is one-use per turn and can only be used while an expendable resource, CP, is available.
Imagine if you had to use a stratagem to overcharge plasma guns (but it didn't overheat)?
Imagine if you remembered the price of Plasma Guns (13 points) compared to Storm Bolters (2 points).
What's your point? That plasma shouldn't be 13 points or that Storm Bolters shouldn't be 2?
Does access to a stratagem that makes ≤5 Storm Bolters once per Battle Round pretend like they're really bad overcharged plasma guns somehow mean the Storm Bolter should be more than 2 points now?
Can you name any unit in the game with comparable damage output for 1CP and 60 points? I'm all ears.
Storm Bolter should have been more than 2 points in the first place, at least compared to Flamers. -_- Or perhaps more accurately, flamers should be less.
Anyway, the unit should not pay the cost for it's strategem [otherwise the unit will be gak since only one instance gets it's cost-value], so it's "how much more firepower can you get for a CP."
The answer, in weapon class, is Vostroyan Marcharius Vulcan or Stormlord. The answer, in general, is Machine Spirit Resurgent or using Firstborn Pride on a Shadowsword/Baneblade
As far as base firepower for 60 points: IG rifles+PC.
The strategem gives a lot of value increase to the cheap unit; but it's a cheap and kind of weak [absolute strength, not points-relative strength] unit in the first place. It's a big buff to a small unit; which isn't quite as valuable as medium buff to a larger unit [Firstborn Pride] or a large buff to a large unit [Machine Spirit Resurgent]
Considering that the Primaris are the new standard for the most popular faction in the game, probably quite a lot of people.
Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.
It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.
Triple basically nil is still pretty much nil.
There's a very narrow bracket of things that have a good enough armor save, low enough toughness, and more than one wound. And that very narrow bracket coincides largely with "things that are already terrible anyway," so like; no change there.
Sim-Life wrote:Not through every post but everyone is assuming all Acts of Faith are all done on a 5+ why?
Because if the melee one to fight twice is 5+; the other one that matters, shooting twice, is probably also 5+.
It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.
Yes. But the starting point wasn't stellar. IG and Scion command squads kitted with plasma are more effective against the target type you mention without using any CP.
Marmatag wrote: That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.
Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.
Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.
I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.
Is it underwhelming for the points though?
Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.
So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.
In a direct comparison like that, sure. However, the army doesn't otherwise have access to Razorbacks, squad carried plasma guns, heavy support units sporting quad lascannons, no super fast infantry units or deep strike, etc.
A T3 unit of sisters getting a strong bonus stratagem to otherwise lackluster weapons options, that have to be within 12" for optimal effect and can only be used once a turn in matched play, isnt going to terrify me just yet. Any opponent facing such a threat will quickly identify it, and it doesn't take much to mitigate or neutralize the one or two units in any army that will be able to really make good use of this stratagem.
If thats the most powerful thing this army will bring to the table, I don't think we'll see SoB breaking the meta much. Basically you're paying 1 CP to change the Storm Bolter into a Plasma Gun for a turn in terms of damage output against most targets. Powerful in certain circumstances, but within the greater context of the codex of the army and meta, probably not particularly astounding.
Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible, but within the context of sisters as we know them, what we have seen thus far, and the rest of the 8E meta, I'm not worried about it breaking the game.
Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.
Exorcists are literally the one thing in the entire army beyond Heavy Bolters able to reach out past 24", and the only one with big hard hitting ranged attacks aside from infantry carried meltaguns, and we don't know exactly how they'll end up. More to the point, they can't be expected to do everything all the time in every list.
1. Storm Bolters aren't lackluster. Arguably they're the only good Bolt weapon people try and take.
2. The availability of Razorbacks is moot because you're only talking about the Assault Cannon variant. Otherwise, you don't take the other options (which the Immolator has three of, anyway). That's dishonest of you. Honestly, you should even be ashamed you tried to make that a point.
3. Okay, they don't have Plasma Guns. It isn't like Marines get a cheap saturation of them; just because the option exists doesn't mean the option pops up a lot. That's why when people talk about nerfing Plasma Guns, all the complaints are related to the Scion platforms.
4. What has a Quad Lascannon? The 500 point Spartan? Lol k
5. Uh the unit of discussion is fast? Seripham are fast? We also don't know if they're gonna get a Deep Strike Strategem like everyone and their mother has at this point? Being able to rush Repressors up the field like a Rhino but not lose the firepower of the embarked squad makes even basic squads fast to engage?
The army is plenty fast.
6. T3 isn't a disadvantage because of damage output for the price. Units pay a lot for the additional Toughness because GW doesn't price durability correctly.
I can either have a Marine with T4 and a Bolter, or a Dominion with T3 and a Storm Bolter. Seeing as dead units don't fight back, the latter is a superior choice.
7. This is only a preview. We actually don't know what else the army is bringing, sure.
I want you to think about the escalation with the last few codices though and get back to me on what we can reasonably expect though.
8. They're still cheap at 140 points to supplement anything moving forward. They don't need to do ALL the work. This isn't a camping army like Guard.
It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.
Yes. But the starting point wasn't stellar. IG and Scion command squads kitted with plasma are more effective against the target type you mention without using any CP.
...and everyone considers Scion Plasma to be an issue still, even with the silly one-command-squad-per-HQ-dude restriction. What's the point you're making?
Considering that the Primaris are the new standard for the most popular faction in the game, probably quite a lot of people.
Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.
It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.
Triple basically nil is still pretty much nil.
There's a very narrow bracket of things that have a good enough armor save, low enough toughness, and more than one wound. And that very narrow bracket coincides largely with "things that are already terrible anyway," so like; no change there.
Sim-Life wrote:Not through every post but everyone is assuming all Acts of Faith are all done on a 5+ why?
Because if the melee one to fight twice is 5+; the other one that matters, shooting twice, is probably also 5+.
GW priced all the "fight again at the end of the phase" strategems at 3CP and the shooting twice ones at 2.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ...and everyone considers Scion Plasma to be an issue still, even with the silly one-command-squad-per-HQ-dude restriction. What's the point you're making?
If they had to pay a CP in order to overcharge, and you could only have one such unit, I really doubt anyone would consider them a problem!
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Just so you don't feel like the only sane man screaming into the wind, yes, this strategy is ridiculous.
It's existence alone elevates SoB to overpowered threats.
However, you're not going to make any headway into this echo chamber of misery. The SoB blockade, especially on Dakka, cannot stand to hear that they are anything more than the single crappiest faction in any game system ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ...and everyone considers Scion Plasma to be an issue still, even with the silly one-command-squad-per-HQ-dude restriction. What's the point you're making?
If they had to pay a CP in order to overcharge, and you could only have one such unit, I really doubt anyone would consider them a problem!
Let's say theoretically you had to do that for Plasma Guns, which are already a 13 point weapon. Yeah I would be annoyed because that's already a lot of investment.
You're instead paying for 2 point weapons to jump THAT much in effectiveness.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Just so you don't feel like the only sane man screaming into the wind, yes, this strategy is ridiculous.
It's existence alone elevates SoB to overpowered threats.
However, you're not going to make any headway into this echo chamber of misery. The SoB blockade, especially on Dakka, cannot stand to hear that they are anything more than the single crappiest faction in any game system ever.
Literally the only thing stopping the army from showing up anywhere is the cost.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Storm Bolter should have been more than 2 points in the first place, at least compared to Flamers. -_- Or perhaps more accurately, flamers should be less.
/quote]
no, no , no , no. Stay away from the SB cost. Keep your point adjustments to your army CP and unit costs. 2pts SB have a high enough cost.
However, you're not going to make any headway into this echo chamber of misery. The SoB blockade, especially on Dakka, cannot stand to hear that they are anything more than the single crappiest faction in any game system ever.
Let's say theoretically you had to do that for Plasma Guns, which are already a 13 point weapon. Yeah I would be annoyed because that's already a lot of investment.
You're instead paying for 2 point weapons to jump THAT much in effectiveness.
But you're paying CP to do it! And even with the Stratagem, the storm bolter is not nearly as good against Primaris Marines than the overcharged plasma.
Let's say theoretically you had to do that for Plasma Guns, which are already a 13 point weapon. Yeah I would be annoyed because that's already a lot of investment.
You're instead paying for 2 point weapons to jump THAT much in effectiveness.
But you're paying CP to do it! And even with the Stratagem, the storm bolter is not nearly as good against Primaris Marines than the overcharged plasma.
Once again you need to look at relative cost. You keep ignoring this for some reason.
The Sisters unit being outlined in this particular discussion is 60 points. Hypothetically, if they could equip Plasma, that's already more expensive than the former just by equipping ONE Plasma.
Also it isn't like the army won't be swimming in Command Points. They're easily an army that can get a Brigade without fielding a tax (though the Elite slot can be argued to mostly have tax units, depending on how saturated with Special Weapons their Command Squads get).
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Lets just look at the space marine relic (primarchs wrath) It's a str 5 ap-1 flat 2 storm bolter. It costs 1 CP. This stratagem basically gives you 3-10 (assuming shooting twice or a lowly sisters unit) of those on demand for 1 cp a turn. Honestly - that is the second best relic in the space marine codex IMO also.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Just so you don't feel like the only sane man screaming into the wind, yes, this strategy is ridiculous.
It's existence alone elevates SoB to overpowered threats.
However, you're not going to make any headway into this echo chamber of misery. The SoB blockade, especially on Dakka, cannot stand to hear that they are anything more than the single crappiest faction in any game system ever.
Its a powwerful strat - definately - Is it limited to a single vehicle or 5 sisters per shooting phase - probbaly
does it need looking at - maybe
Do we need your childish screaming and insults from you - not really.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Yeah a discussion is good but howling to the moon when the beta isn't even released because one unit per army can use a stratagem effectively while cutting other needed options in the army (dominions are the usual source of melta with seraphims) is kinda... premature.
Once again you need to look at relative cost. You keep ignoring this for some reason.
I am not. Sixty points worth of IG plasma command squaders (so threeish guys, the full squad costs 76 points) causes the about same amount of damage to the Primaris Marines than the sister squad using this stratagem. So IG can achieve comparable damage without burning the CP, and are not limited to one squad per turn shooting this way either. So based on this I really don't buy the argument that for a cost of one CP per turn, one sister squad in the whole army achieving comparable damage per point ratio than IG can without any CP expenditure is OP.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Yeah a discussion is good but howling to the moon when the beta isn't even released because one unit per army can use a stratagem effectively while cutting other needed options in the army (dominions are the usual source of melta with seraphims) is kinda... premature.
If you don't want uninformed, kneejerk reactions don't come to Dakka.
Xenomancers wrote: Lets just look at the space marine relic (primarchs wrath) It's a str 5 ap-1 flat 2 storm bolter. It costs 1 CP. This stratagem basically gives you 3-10 (assuming shooting twice or a lowly sisters unit) of those on demand for 1 cp a turn. Honestly - that is the second best relic in the space marine codex IMO also.
But Space Marine relics are bad. Still, for one CP you can shoot with it for the whole game, and the character is much easier to protect than a squad.
Xenomancers wrote: Lets just look at the space marine relic (primarchs wrath) It's a str 5 ap-1 flat 2 storm bolter. It costs 1 CP. This stratagem basically gives you 3-10 (assuming shooting twice or a lowly sisters unit) of those on demand for 1 cp a turn. Honestly - that is the second best relic in the space marine codex IMO also.
But Space Marine relics are bad. Still, for one CP you can shoot with it for the whole game, and the character is much easier to protect than a squad.
And we aren't talking about a marine army which as access to a wide range of weapons. It's SoB.
Someone made some "quick maths" about the stratagem effectiveness against monsters with invuls which led him to consider the strat OP while disregarding that as of now, SoB has no real good options against this kind of model (you either dump as much heavy bolter shots as you can or waste melta with these).
Not saying marines are in a better place or whatever. Just that different stuff are different.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Yeah a discussion is good but howling to the moon when the beta isn't even released because one unit per army can use a stratagem effectively while cutting other needed options in the army (dominions are the usual source of melta with seraphims) is kinda... premature.
I'm curious, people like Marmatag who immediately hit the wall over this; do you) Have you ever played with or against them before? Because you guys are missing out on some SERIOUS FACTIONWIDE LIMITATIONS that sisters deal with. To take the most advantage of the stratagem, an SoB army has to basically give up their ability to kill vehicles (thanks to the rule of 3). They also will only ever have 5 wounds worth of models to kill to stop them from doing it again (no real morale protection, have to jump out of their transport.). They'll also be isolated from the rest of the army, which means it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY they'll actually get to use an AoF, and even if they do that's likely going to cost MOST of the SoB player's AoF points.
Worrying about it for soup is silly. They won't have enough AoF points to reliably get an aof and SoB units are made of tissue paper.
It is an extremely good, extremely useful stratagem that might just barely make up for the fact that SoB Only have two types of weapons to shoot.
Hey guys, just a reminder that we don't have enough context to judge this strat. It is possible that SoB will be lacking in options to fulfill certain roles, and rely on strats like this to make up for it. That's just fine. You can't go comparing apples and oranges and all that.
That said, it is funny to see SoB players trying to pretend like this isn't really good. It IS really good. But we can't say if its too good or overpowered until we see the rest of the context.
I can't see how this Stratagem is breaking the bank when it only affects Storm Bolters for one unit, while people are used to seeing gobs of Disintegrator fire.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
I feel like GW need to do what PP do in regards to player beta testing and HEAVILY hold the weight of battle reports over that of random opinions.
The 40k community is prone to hyperbole at the best of times and I can already hear people furiously composing emails demanding they nerf the Blessed Bolt stratagem because maths.
Once again you need to look at relative cost. You keep ignoring this for some reason.
I am not. Sixty points worth of IG plasma command squaders (so threeish guys, the full squad costs 76 points) causes the about same amount of damage to the Primaris Marines than the sister squad using this stratagem. So IG can achieve comparable damage without burning the CP, and are not limited to one squad per turn shooting this way either. So based on this I really don't buy the argument that for a cost of one CP per turn, one sister squad in the whole army achieving comparable damage per point ratio than IG can without any CP expenditure is OP.
Three guys huh? Let's run that math real quick. In rapid fire that's 3.3 Marines dead from Plasma and 4.4 from the Storm Bolters. How many Lasguns you got after that to even up the numbers? With BS3+ that'll be 13 Lasgun shots needed.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
We do have complete information in this case though. We have the cost of the Strategem and the squads available to use it.
Once again you need to look at relative cost. You keep ignoring this for some reason.
I am not. Sixty points worth of IG plasma command squaders (so threeish guys, the full squad costs 76 points) causes the about same amount of damage to the Primaris Marines than the sister squad using this stratagem. So IG can achieve comparable damage without burning the CP, and are not limited to one squad per turn shooting this way either. So based on this I really don't buy the argument that for a cost of one CP per turn, one sister squad in the whole army achieving comparable damage per point ratio than IG can without any CP expenditure is OP.
Three guys huh? Let's run that math real quick. In rapid fire that's 3.3 Marines dead from Plasma and 4.4 from the Storm Bolters. How many Lasguns you got after that to even up the numbers? With BS3+ that'll be 13 Lasgun shots needed.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
We do have complete information in this case though. We have the cost of the Strategem and the squads available to use it.
Do we now - so how much are Dominons? How many can be in a squad? How any Storm Bolters can they take, do they still have the same rules etc etc As seen by the Ork, units can go up in price as well as down.
We have the index squads but no stats or points for sisters units have been released that I have seen?
How do they interact with Acts of Faith - how many do we get per battle, do we roll on a D6 ? Unless you have Chapter Approved - if so please share
Sim-Life wrote: The 40k community is prone to hyperbole at the best of times and I can already hear people furiously composing emails demanding they nerf the Blessed Bolt stratagem because maths.
Was always going to be the risk of the beta codex.
Do we now - so how much are Dominons? How many can be in a squad? How any Storm Bolters can they take, do they still have the same rules etc etc As seen by the Ork, units can go up in price as well as down.
We have the index squads but no stats or points for sisters units have been released that I have seen?
How do they interact with Acts of Faith - how many do we get per battle, do we roll on a D6 ? Unless you have Chapter Approved - if so please share
Even if we take it at face value 5 storm bolters kills 2 primaris or puts 2 wounds on T7 3+ in short range for a CP. Very far from game breaking.
Marmatag wrote: That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.
Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.
Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.
I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.
Is it underwhelming for the points though?
Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.
So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.
In a direct comparison like that, sure. However, the army doesn't otherwise have access to Razorbacks, squad carried plasma guns, heavy support units sporting quad lascannons, no super fast infantry units or deep strike, etc.
A T3 unit of sisters getting a strong bonus stratagem to otherwise lackluster weapons options, that have to be within 12" for optimal effect and can only be used once a turn in matched play, isnt going to terrify me just yet. Any opponent facing such a threat will quickly identify it, and it doesn't take much to mitigate or neutralize the one or two units in any army that will be able to really make good use of this stratagem.
If thats the most powerful thing this army will bring to the table, I don't think we'll see SoB breaking the meta much. Basically you're paying 1 CP to change the Storm Bolter into a Plasma Gun for a turn in terms of damage output against most targets. Powerful in certain circumstances, but within the greater context of the codex of the army and meta, probably not particularly astounding.
Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible, but within the context of sisters as we know them, what we have seen thus far, and the rest of the 8E meta, I'm not worried about it breaking the game.
Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.
Exorcists are literally the one thing in the entire army beyond Heavy Bolters able to reach out past 24", and the only one with big hard hitting ranged attacks aside from infantry carried meltaguns, and we don't know exactly how they'll end up. More to the point, they can't be expected to do everything all the time in every list.
1. Storm Bolters aren't lackluster. Arguably they're the only good Bolt weapon people try and take.
On things like Rhinos and the occasional squad leader? Yeah. As a squad upgrade special weapon for an infantry unit to rely on for its flexibility and major hitting power? Not so much.
2. The availability of Razorbacks is moot because you're only talking about the Assault Cannon variant. Otherwise, you don't take the other options (which the Immolator has three of, anyway). That's dishonest of you. Honestly, you should even be ashamed you tried to make that a point.
The point was that their equivalents are generally much more shorter ranged (particularly for optimal effectiveness) and/or ar less flexibly armed. The Immolator weapons options just arent that thrilling next to the RB, even setting points effectiveness aside.
3. Okay, they don't have Plasma Guns. It isn't like Marines get a cheap saturation of them; just because the option exists doesn't mean the option pops up a lot. That's why when people talk about nerfing Plasma Guns, all the complaints are related to the Scion platforms.
Sure, Marines dont get to take 50 plasma guns in a list. However, they have do have access to them, Sisters do not, and PG's are by far the most effective and flexible special weapon option in 8E in general. Sisters have no such access. Allowing one squad a turn to basically treat Storm Bolters as Plasma Guns, given the lack of such firepower otherwise, may not be the most horrific thing in the world.
4. What has a Quad Lascannon? The 500 point Spartan? Lol k
Land Raiders, Predators, Devastators?
5. Uh the unit of discussion is fast?
Dominions? They get a Scout move, but are not otherwise particularly fast.
Seripham are fast?
They are, but they also dont have access to Storm Bolters IIRC, and their special weapons options have a 6" range (and an optimal 3" range for inferno pistols).
We also don't know if they're gonna get a Deep Strike Strategem like everyone and their mother has at this point?
Possible, but not something previewed or indicated as yet.
Being able to rush Repressors up the field like a Rhino but not lose the firepower of the embarked squad makes even basic squads fast to engage?
The army is plenty fast.
I forgot about Repressors, I havent see one in person in years. That would make for a more effective platform to be sure. That said, for a squad of dominions and a repressor, we're talking about 150-160pts if the squad is barebones. They'll kill half a squad of marines or half a vehicle, and then be an immediate priority target for everything else they just moved into range of.
That said, I also doubt anyone writing rules anywhere is considering the Repressor, GW seems to insist on pretending FW units dont exist when writing rules
6. T3 isn't a disadvantage because of damage output for the price. Units pay a lot for the additional Toughness because GW doesn't price durability correctly.
I can either have a Marine with T4 and a Bolter, or a Dominion with T3 and a Storm Bolter. Seeing as dead units don't fight back, the latter is a superior choice.
If all we're doing is looking at those two in a vacuum 12" apart, sure, the Sisters win every time, no argument from me. Again however, within the broader context of the two armies, I'm not super worried. Only one unit a turn can make use of that stratagem, the units will have to be kitted to make use of it, you'll know which units are capable of making use of it, the units have to get within assault range to optimally function, and that makes concentrating on, avoiding or mitigating that relatively easy.
Im also ok with the marines getting a price break.
7. This is only a preview. We actually don't know what else the army is bringing, sure.
I want you to think about the escalation with the last few codices though and get back to me on what we can reasonably expect though.
Honestly, given that this is going to be another CA book for Sisters, with their codex history through the editions, and against the backdrop of the larger 8E metagame, i expect we will see an overall mediocre army with one or two savage Soup combos with a crutch or two (maybe blessed bolts) keeping monosisters viable enough to not be total garbage. I don't expect them to upend the metagame.
We'll see how it shakes out, but im not ready to freak out about Blessed Bolts just yet. Its possible im wrong, but I just dont feel its all that bad with the context available.
8. They're still cheap at 140 points to supplement anything moving forward. They don't need to do ALL the work. This isn't a camping army like Guard.
The issue is that their other units dont really replicate that particular kind of fire, multishot AP reducung multidamage S7/8 firepower that does the lifting in many top meta lists today. More to the point, as they currently stand they're pretty garbage, and GW has failed to fix garbage units more than once before
The closest Sisters can get to Exorcist type firepower outside of it is Meltaguns. Nobody is making ultrascary armies built around meltaguns to my knowledge.
Yeah, I said awhile back that SB Dominions feels like a trap. An army that has to do all of its dirty business up close (within 12" across a WIDE portion of the army) cannot suffer losing one of their BEST heavy threat removal units (Dominions with Meltaguns in a Transport) to be downgraded into a glorified chaff cleaning unit. You're not taking on any really heavy threats in a meaningful way with 5x4 STR 4 -2 AP 2 D shots without an available source of rerolling those wound rolls. Most tanks that they're chasing at T7, so that's wounding on 5s... quick maths say that 33% miss, 66% then fail to wound... you're forcing what? 4-5 -2 saves for 2 damage? Most of those things have a 3+, so they save 1-2 of them? Congrats, you just paid 1 CP and did 4 damage to a T5-7 vehicle. Even worse vs. T8.
I would possibly be concerned if Celestians got the option to take a Special Weapon + Melee Weapon. 5 of them popping out of a transport with a Canoness can dish out some withering fire before diving into melee and causing more havoc. But that is a delayed engagement vs the speed of Dominions, so your opponent won't have to immediately deal with it (because Seraphim and Dominions are a thing). Even then, it is 1 unit army wide. Hardly broken, and hardly out of line vs what can be done with Veterans of the Long War (Obliterators with 12 shots dropping down with Veterans of the Long War + Endless Cacophony, going to wreck A LOT harder than anything Sisters can dream of). The points are much higher there, but the idea is to draw comparisons between Veterans and Blessed Bolts.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?
Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
Or when people lost their shirt over Khorne Berserkers?
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.
Kinda like how Conscripts were NEVER a problem and Infantry still aren't a problem?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?
Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?
The answer is things will either stay the same or go down. Anything going up in price has always been the exception, not the rule, and not being touched in the last Chapter Approved means we can say they'll stay the same price.
Now then, go ahead and actually answer my question in how many units went up in price when a codex was released. I'll be waiting.
Prices... I think the infantry is in a decent spot.. maybe look at the Repentia for a little drop.
I never feel like I am losing ground for buying an Immolator, but that is almost exclusively with the flamer-top, the multi-melta top needs some love. Rhinos just feel like Immolators without guns... so, not sure how they stand, but maybe they shed a couple of points? Repressors are probably not going anywhere points-wise, maybe a tick or two up a little more (but dropping the other Transports price a hair will accomplish the same goal).
Exorcist needs some love. Desperately wanting a reach around or something. The durability feels about right for the points, but that gun is not in the least scary atop it.
Penitent Engine just got a lot better, so maybe the points now are okayish, but it may tick down a few points because it is still very glass-cannon. I honestly expect it to stay the same.
Flamers need to come down to something stupid like 2 points... the extra potential hits are nothing compared to the range restrictions it places. I think over the game it'll do about as much work as a Stormbolter. Melta are okayish, but only ever good because Dominions can deliver them, I never feel like I am strictly worse off for paying 120 points for 4 melta-dominions. Lots of people think they're hurting, so they may go down a handful of points.
I don't think we're going to see massive drops in points like some codices (Craftworlds, and CA Grey Knights are supposed to be), but there shouldn't be a lot of upward trends either.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
Or when people lost their shirt over Khorne Berserkers?
People lost their gak over Berserker Marines for them being usable once again, not being broken. You mixed up enthusiasm with worry there.
Marmatag wrote: That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.
Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.
Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.
I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.
Is it underwhelming for the points though?
Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.
So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.
In a direct comparison like that, sure. However, the army doesn't otherwise have access to Razorbacks, squad carried plasma guns, heavy support units sporting quad lascannons, no super fast infantry units or deep strike, etc.
A T3 unit of sisters getting a strong bonus stratagem to otherwise lackluster weapons options, that have to be within 12" for optimal effect and can only be used once a turn in matched play, isnt going to terrify me just yet. Any opponent facing such a threat will quickly identify it, and it doesn't take much to mitigate or neutralize the one or two units in any army that will be able to really make good use of this stratagem.
If thats the most powerful thing this army will bring to the table, I don't think we'll see SoB breaking the meta much. Basically you're paying 1 CP to change the Storm Bolter into a Plasma Gun for a turn in terms of damage output against most targets. Powerful in certain circumstances, but within the greater context of the codex of the army and meta, probably not particularly astounding.
Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible, but within the context of sisters as we know them, what we have seen thus far, and the rest of the 8E meta, I'm not worried about it breaking the game.
Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.
Exorcists are literally the one thing in the entire army beyond Heavy Bolters able to reach out past 24", and the only one with big hard hitting ranged attacks aside from infantry carried meltaguns, and we don't know exactly how they'll end up. More to the point, they can't be expected to do everything all the time in every list.
1. Storm Bolters aren't lackluster. Arguably they're the only good Bolt weapon people try and take.
On things like Rhinos and the occasional squad leader? Yeah. As a squad upgrade special weapon for an infantry unit to rely on for its flexibility and major hitting power? Not so much.
2. The availability of Razorbacks is moot because you're only talking about the Assault Cannon variant. Otherwise, you don't take the other options (which the Immolator has three of, anyway). That's dishonest of you. Honestly, you should even be ashamed you tried to make that a point.
The point was that their equivalents are generally much more shorter ranged (particularly for optimal effectiveness) and/or ar less flexibly armed. The Immolator weapons options just arent that thrilling next to the RB, even setting points effectiveness aside.
3. Okay, they don't have Plasma Guns. It isn't like Marines get a cheap saturation of them; just because the option exists doesn't mean the option pops up a lot. That's why when people talk about nerfing Plasma Guns, all the complaints are related to the Scion platforms.
Sure, Marines dont get to take 50 plasma guns in a list. However, they have do have access to them, Sisters do not, and PG's are by far the most effective and flexible special weapon option in 8E in general. Sisters have no such access. Allowing one squad a turn to basically treat Storm Bolters as Plasma Guns, given the lack of such firepower otherwise, may not be the most horrific thing in the world.
4. What has a Quad Lascannon? The 500 point Spartan? Lol k
Land Raiders, Predators, Devastators?
5. Uh the unit of discussion is fast?
Dominions? They get a Scout move, but are not otherwise particularly fast.
Seripham are fast?
They are, but they also dont have access to Storm Bolters IIRC, and their special weapons options have a 6" range (and an optimal 3" range for inferno pistols).
We also don't know if they're gonna get a Deep Strike Strategem like everyone and their mother has at this point?
Possible, but not something previewed or indicated as yet.
Being able to rush Repressors up the field like a Rhino but not lose the firepower of the embarked squad makes even basic squads fast to engage?
The army is plenty fast.
I forgot about Repressors, I havent see one in person in years. That would make for a more effective platform to be sure. That said, for a squad of dominions and a repressor, we're talking about 150-160pts if the squad is barebones. They'll kill half a squad of marines or half a vehicle, and then be an immediate priority target for everything else they just moved into range of.
That said, I also doubt anyone writing rules anywhere is considering the Repressor, GW seems to insist on pretending FW units dont exist when writing rules
6. T3 isn't a disadvantage because of damage output for the price. Units pay a lot for the additional Toughness because GW doesn't price durability correctly.
I can either have a Marine with T4 and a Bolter, or a Dominion with T3 and a Storm Bolter. Seeing as dead units don't fight back, the latter is a superior choice.
If all we're doing is looking at those two in a vacuum 12" apart, sure, the Sisters win every time, no argument from me. Again however, within the broader context of the two armies, I'm not super worried. Only one unit a turn can make use of that stratagem, the units will have to be kitted to make use of it, you'll know which units are capable of making use of it, the units have to get within assault range to optimally function, and that makes concentrating on, avoiding or mitigating that relatively easy.
Im also ok with the marines getting a price break.
7. This is only a preview. We actually don't know what else the army is bringing, sure.
I want you to think about the escalation with the last few codices though and get back to me on what we can reasonably expect though.
Honestly, given that this is going to be another CA book for Sisters, with their codex history through the editions, and against the backdrop of the larger 8E metagame, i expect we will see an overall mediocre army with one or two savage Soup combos with a crutch or two (maybe blessed bolts) keeping monosisters viable enough to not be total garbage. I don't expect them to upend the metagame.
We'll see how it shakes out, but im not ready to freak out about Blessed Bolts just yet. Its possible im wrong, but I just dont feel its all that bad with the context available.
8. They're still cheap at 140 points to supplement anything moving forward. They don't need to do ALL the work. This isn't a camping army like Guard.
The issue is that their other units dont really replicate that particular kind of fire, multishot AP reducung multidamage S7/8 firepower that does the lifting in many top meta lists today. More to the point, as they currently stand they're pretty garbage, and GW has failed to fix garbage units more than once before
The closest Sisters can get to Exorcist type firepower outside of it is Meltaguns. Nobody is making ultrascary armies built around meltaguns to my knowledge.
Wew lad that needed a spoiler.
1. If you don't think people love their Storm Bolters you must've missed Company Vets, Deathwatch Vets, Sterngaurd, and Chosen (Combi-Bolters are the same thing really). Those are the only weapons you really take with them because it keeps them cheaper on top of doubling their firepower. Any other special weapons you basically defer to a different army. Heavy Weapons are of course a different topic.
2. Less thrilling weapons options. So you have the TL Lascannon, the Lascannon/TL Plasma Gun, a single Multi-Melta, the TL Heavy Bolter, TL Assault Cannon, and the TL Heavy Flamer.
The Immolator has three of those options already (and I'm pretty sure that Multi-Melta is TL but I can't remember), and then you have basically the Assault Cannon only ever being used. LasBacks are very niche.
Is it really less exciting when only 1 option is actually good anyway and therefore you only took that option?
3. It isn't that Plasma Guns are more flexible and more that the other options are just garbage. That's part of why people were upset with Plasma Guns: they forgot that even if you nerfed them you wouldn't take Melta still.
Assuming proper price cuts that won't matter. They'd just miss on one weapon. At least Sisters can accumulate them for much cheaper though thanks to the cheaper base cost.
4. Quad Lascannon is an actual weapon for the Spartan However, if you want to talk about Lascannons I'm all ears. CSM and their Loyalist Scum brethren certainly aren't getting them on the cheap. That's why it's the main niche of the LasBack after all. If you think Predators are a good source of Lascannons you're definitely lying to yourself.
It's almost like you're complaining Sisters aren't able to camp as an army.
5. Dominions ARE fast though. You know how much of a difference that move makes for an army trying to be in the opponent's face? A lot. Their transport moves with a free move, and then you move again. Two movement phases is pretty strong.
If anything but actual Infiltration isn't fast to you, you have over the top standards.
6. You asked for fast units in the army that were infantry, and they fit the qualification. If they weren't fast they would be terrible instead of mediocre.
7. You can't deny that Codices throw around a Strategem like that whenever they want though. I'm basically willing to bet money it'll happen.
8. It isn't like Repressors aren't durable for the price. They absolutely deserved the price hike they got in the last Chapter Approved.
9. It isn't a matter of it just one unit using it a turn. The issue is that it's the best unit to do it, as other Sisters units can specialize in other areas. Dominions are simply THE unit for Storm Bolter spam though. Now if we get similar Strategems with Melta and Flamer weapons, there might be competition for how to load out Dominions.
10. Sisters have always been upper mid-tier at worst though. They're simply the worst army ever for collecting though. Once these plastic kits come out you'll see them showing up a LOT more in tournaments, as they're already not terrible as an index army. They'll only get better with the codex.
11. Exorcists aren't great but they aren't terrible. I'm willing to even bet they'll get a silly fire-twice clause like everyone else got besides Hammerheads (which was definitely off).
Bob of War of Sigmar confirmed that Faith points are generated once at the beginning of the game, which means that most non-infantry spam lists are going to have 6-7, the roll is also a single D6 with the low being a 3+ and the high being 5+.
This is TERRIBLE compared to the old system. The old system was 5 AoFs on a 2+ per game, didn't have to do anything special to get them. Even WITH the ebon chalice CT AND getting to use multiple in a turn it's still worse. If Celestine doesn't keep her guaranteed AoF, they can basically pull the system out of the book for anyone who brings less than 100 infantry.
The additional characters are going to be pointless except for infantry spam lists. Their aura ranges will be too small to reach Dominions or Seraphim so you'll be stuck with Retributors and basic battle sisters only if you want to actually be able to use AoFs.
So this system pushes SoB players into take 120+ infantry and conga-lining them together around a character or two so that they can actually benefit from Vessels of the Emperor. It's a far more obnoxious(but ultimately less effective) version of the typical Guilleman bunker list. The problem is the only weapon SoB can actually use in a bunker list is a heavy bolter. Even the stupid stormbolter stratagem and shooting twice won't give them anywhere near the firepower a similar Guard/Eldar/or Marine list would have.
If you choose to still do a mech list, you can basically pull the pages detailing AoF out of the book because basing any strategy around MAYBE rolling a 5+ is suicide.
10. Sisters have always been upper mid-tier at worst though. They're simply the worst army ever for collecting though. Once these plastic kits come out you'll see them showing up a LOT more in tournaments, as they're already not terrible as an index army. They'll only get better with the codex.
11. Exorcists aren't great but they aren't terrible. I'm willing to even bet they'll get a silly fire-twice clause like everyone else got besides Hammerheads (which was definitely off).
I would like to point out that with the new AoF system, there is a legitimate chance they get worse with the Codex. They'd have to have A LOT of buffs and price drops to make up for gutting the thing that made Sisters a good index army in the first place.
9. It isn't a matter of it just one unit using it a turn. The issue is that it's the best unit to do it, as other Sisters units can specialize in other areas. Dominions are simply THE unit for Storm Bolter spam though. Now if we get similar Strategems with Melta and Flamer weapons, there might be competition for how to load out Dominions.
10. Sisters have always been upper mid-tier at worst though. They're simply the worst army ever for collecting though. Once these plastic kits come out you'll see them showing up a LOT more in tournaments, as they're already not terrible as an index army. They'll only get better with the codex.
11. Exorcists aren't great but they aren't terrible. I'm willing to even bet they'll get a silly fire-twice clause like everyone else got besides Hammerheads (which was definitely off).
9: Yeah, there might a competition.... but it's not with Storm Bolters, it's with Meltaguns. Dominions run Melta, because an army built on having a ton of light infantry killing weapons does not go far; especially in a meta filled with super heavy walkers that never degrade. Ask the Grey Knights how the whole "we don't have any AT guns" is working out for them. Dominions with Storm Bolters were pretty cool when the edition dropped; and then the rule of 3 dropped; and it's now basically only Dominions with Meltaguns. Sisters antitank is Dominions and Seraphim. The latter are a turn-2 threat, though.
10: Huh? Did I imagine a period of time spanning 2 editions where our army were our only antiaircraft source was literally "pray"?
11: They're basically a Vindicator with reduced strength and increased range. This is not a recipe for greatness. Toughness is irrelevant if your gun is too weak to warrant your removal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you think Predators are a good source of Lascannons you're definitely lying to yourself.
Why would Predators not be a good source of Lascannons?
They're a good source of lascannons, but they're not a good source of lascannons. That said, my friend swears by his Chaos Quadlas Predator, so they can't be that bad. I generally preferred the autocannon, but it's been falling short with more T8 out there.
The predator is a great platform for lascannons, especially if you run 3 for killshot. Havocs aren't bad platforms either. I usually bring about 4-8 lascannons to a game without breaking the bank and they usually do well.
Frankly given the amount of time it's been, I think if any army deserves time to be OP it's sisters. But without many ways to reach out and touch units across the board, I doubt this army will be OP. Half the deployments will hurt them heavily. Plus the army wants to be in 12" but not combat so it's always going to fight on a fine line.
ERJAK wrote: Bob of War of Sigmar confirmed that Faith points are generated once at the beginning of the game, which means that most non-infantry spam lists are going to have 6-7, the roll is also a single D6 with the low being a 3+ and the high being 5+
That's a no-doubter, plate clearing home run of a nerf batting if true. ~2-3 activations of faith per game, hoping against the odds that the unit you need it on manages to get it going.
Still faith in the index army was pretty much limited to moving/up-gunning seraphim, patching up celestine, and occasionally shooting twice with heavy bolters. I guess it's time to write off the seraphim charge and see what else in the army can pick up the slack.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
Or when people lost their shirt over Khorne Berserkers?
People lost their gak over Berserker Marines for them being usable once again, not being broken. You mixed up enthusiasm with worry there.
No. People were claiming they would destroy armies in one turn and fell warhound titans in single combat.
ERJAK wrote: Bob of War of Sigmar confirmed that Faith points are generated once at the beginning of the game, which means that most non-infantry spam lists are going to have 6-7, the roll is also a single D6 with the low being a 3+ and the high being 5+
That's a no-doubter, plate clearing home run of a nerf batting if true. ~2-3 activations of faith per game, hoping against the odds that the unit you need it on manages to get it going.
Still faith in the index army was pretty much limited to moving/up-gunning seraphim, patching up celestine, and occasionally shooting twice with heavy bolters. I guess it's time to write off the seraphim charge and see what else in the army can pick up the slack.
I'm seeing Seraphim taking on a different role. Right now the kind of overlap with Dominions as a rush-forward scalpel unit that can more-or-less reliably remove a targeted threat. Dominions will likely keep that role, unless something radically changes with their scout movement rule. They don't currently rely on anything else to achieve that. Seraphim I see a bit of the designer's intention there when you look at Burning Descent, which is obviously targeted for them. A squad of 10 Seraphim with 2 pairs of hand flamers dropping onto the battlefield to strategically wipe a softer unit off of an objective, or worse... pop onto said objective while eliminating a unit trying to sneak up on it. That is a WHOLE lot of firepower hitting a unit that likely won't be able to weather it very well. Currently, the hand flamers aren't worth the fuss even with Burning Descent, so it'd likely be 10 Sisters with 2 bolt pistols each, for a whopping 110 points that can come in and literally steal a victory point from your opponent (either by scoring one, or denying one).
I'm also looking at this from the prism of Acceptable Losses being in play, where simply wiping each other out is not exactly a path to victory. You can wipe me out in 3-4 turns, but then you only have 2-3 turns to score points after I was controlling the board for the whole time I was on the table. Horde armies got a huge boost... and that's all Sisters are: a near-hoard army with a better selection of arms and armor. Mobile horde armies got a massive boost, and Seraphim and Dominions can be mobile while also being a bit cheap.
I'm still broken up about the Faith system. They said they wanted the Faith system to be improved... but if what was previewed and rumored match up.. it doesn't sound like they landed the mark there. But I can still see some massive strengths. Fix Celestians to become our Close Combat unit, again, get them with a Canoness with the relic sword. Pass The Passion, use Vessel of the Emperor's Will... toss in a Priest, troll relentlessly, especially as Bloody Rose. If the goal is to get attention, that + Dominions rolling around with meltaguns should divert enough of it away that you can score points early and often.
9. It isn't a matter of it just one unit using it a turn. The issue is that it's the best unit to do it, as other Sisters units can specialize in other areas. Dominions are simply THE unit for Storm Bolter spam though. Now if we get similar Strategems with Melta and Flamer weapons, there might be competition for how to load out Dominions.
10. Sisters have always been upper mid-tier at worst though. They're simply the worst army ever for collecting though. Once these plastic kits come out you'll see them showing up a LOT more in tournaments, as they're already not terrible as an index army. They'll only get better with the codex.
11. Exorcists aren't great but they aren't terrible. I'm willing to even bet they'll get a silly fire-twice clause like everyone else got besides Hammerheads (which was definitely off).
9: Yeah, there might a competition.... but it's not with Storm Bolters, it's with Meltaguns. Dominions run Melta, because an army built on having a ton of light infantry killing weapons does not go far; especially in a meta filled with super heavy walkers that never degrade. Ask the Grey Knights how the whole "we don't have any AT guns" is working out for them. Dominions with Storm Bolters were pretty cool when the edition dropped; and then the rule of 3 dropped; and it's now basically only Dominions with Meltaguns. Sisters antitank is Dominions and Seraphim. The latter are a turn-2 threat, though.
10: Huh? Did I imagine a period of time spanning 2 editions where our army were our only antiaircraft source was literally "pray"?
11: They're basically a Vindicator with reduced strength and increased range. This is not a recipe for greatness. Toughness is irrelevant if your gun is too weak to warrant your removal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you think Predators are a good source of Lascannons you're definitely lying to yourself.
Why would Predators not be a good source of Lascannons?
They're a good source of lascannons, but they're not a good source of lascannons. That said, my friend swears by his Chaos Quadlas Predator, so they can't be that bad. I generally preferred the autocannon, but it's been falling short with more T8 out there.
1. Grey Knights also don't have as good a Storm Bolter Strategem.
I also say that this Strategem is busted enough that Dominions will only ever be ran with Storm Bolters. Regular Battle Sisters can carry the Melta Guns. I also made mention that there will indeed be competition if Flamer and Melta weapons get special Strategems too.
2. The only aircraft that posed a threat was Heldrakes. Even the Flying Croissants of Doom were just good at their best.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
Or when people lost their shirt over Khorne Berserkers?
People lost their gak over Berserker Marines for them being usable once again, not being broken. You mixed up enthusiasm with worry there.
No. People were claiming they would destroy armies in one turn and fell warhound titans in single combat.
ERJAK wrote: Bob of War of Sigmar confirmed that Faith points are generated once at the beginning of the game, which means that most non-infantry spam lists are going to have 6-7, the roll is also a single D6 with the low being a 3+ and the high being 5+
That's a no-doubter, plate clearing home run of a nerf batting if true. ~2-3 activations of faith per game, hoping against the odds that the unit you need it on manages to get it going.
Still faith in the index army was pretty much limited to moving/up-gunning seraphim, patching up celestine, and occasionally shooting twice with heavy bolters. I guess it's time to write off the seraphim charge and see what else in the army can pick up the slack.
Ebon Chalice is clearly the best Sorority
Blessed Bolts is really good for 1 cp Vessel of the Emperors Will is nuts; basically shoot twice on your whole army
...but the worst preview, by far?
Penitence Engines are better fighters than Ork Walkers in melee.
What?
Fight twice
Free 5++
Rerolling to-hit rolls
-
It’s ok, this is codex powercreep 100%
Oh wait, it’s the newest Imperial book
Xenos; we’ll try to balance you, but Imperial, "it’s fine"
ffs
Oh, and never mind any "but x y z weakness" is covered entirely by being able to soup with everything.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Yeah, it's absolutely insane. Definitely should be around 2cp or toned down to +1 pen.
I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
We're already seeing it ITT. The new AoF look extremely powerful, but it's not good enough because it's not as reliable as orders.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Yeah, it's absolutely insane. Definitely should be around 2cp or toned down to +1 pen.
I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
We're already seeing it ITT. The new AoF look extremely powerful, but it's not good enough because it's not as reliable as orders.
The hyperbole from naysayers is almost as high as the zeal from the faithful. I mean, in a meta chocked full of fully regenerating 30 man cultist or ork squads, giant death contraptions that can level hundreds of points a turn while weathering thousands of points of fire before showing wear... we're seriously going to take a detour to fuss about AT MOST 20 STR 4 AP -2 D2 shots WITHIN 12"? It absolutely is powerful, but the most it is going to affect EVER is 5 models in 1 turn, and those 5 models would have otherwise been toting melta and blowing up tanks. Now they're clearing chaff/elite infantry (which elite infantry is a MASSIVE hole in the Sister's arsenal). I haven't seen many Primaris or Terminator lists dotting the upper fringes of the competitive landscape, so I'm pretty sure efficiently killing them isn't going to wildly swing the meta. Those storm bolters aren't killing Knights, and they're only marginally better at killing garbage models than they would normally be. I guess there's a lot of Death Guard players here, clutching their army-wide disgustingly resilient, god forbid someone makes them have to reconsider waddling into the middle of the battlefield and controlling everything with their unshiftable mobs.
The way I see it, it isn't exactly Machine Spirit Resurgent.
It's a good effect for a small unit.
And this is absolutely not going to replace melta-dominions. We have no other tank-breaking option; especially with the change to act of faith. The answer is Doms carry melta or lose.
The way I see it, it isn't exactly Machine Spirit Resurgent.
It's a good effect for a small unit.
And this is absolutely not going to replace melta-dominions. We have no other tank-breaking option; especially with the change to act of faith. The answer is Doms carry melta or lose.
Yes you do, you have every other Imperial codex to draw units from.
The way I see it, it isn't exactly Machine Spirit Resurgent.
It's a good effect for a small unit.
And this is absolutely not going to replace melta-dominions. We have no other tank-breaking option; especially with the change to act of faith. The answer is Doms carry melta or lose.
Yes you do, you have every other Imperial codex to draw units from.
Let's walk this back right quick...
Sororitas have one of the best melta units in the game, possibly the best. Dominions are ridiculously strong, and they can do all of their business currently from the safety of a Repressor.
Why on earth, with the rule of 3, would be DEMOTE them to Stormbolters, then disembark and expose them, and then spend CP to get a little muscle for clearly models that clearly don't matter to the meta?
With flamers, and troops that can take 3 Stormbolters for LESS points/model, and cheep efficient sources of bolters + power armor... and jump troops that can drop in and deliver up to 40 bolt pistol shots in 12"... why would you give up one of the best armor crushers in the game? Allies aside, demoting Dominions to anything without melta just feels like a HORRIBLE misplay.
fe40k wrote: Ebon Chalice is clearly the best Sorority
Blessed Bolts is really good for 1 cp Vessel of the Emperors Will is nuts; basically shoot twice on your whole army
...but the worst preview, by far?
Penitence Engines are better fighters than Ork Walkers in melee.
What?
Fight twice
Free 5++
Rerolling to-hit rolls
-
It’s ok, this is codex powercreep 100%
Oh wait, it’s the newest Imperial book
Xenos; we’ll try to balance you, but Imperial, "it’s fine"
ffs
Oh, and never mind any "but x y z weakness" is covered entirely by being able to soup with everything.
BlaxicanX wrote: "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
Right now it looks more like "b-but my armies doesn't have this, why sisters do" tho. It's all over this thread.
But hey, continue making nice posts like this one, you're sure to get a listening ear from anyone.
I sit here with my cigar swirling a glass of 2018 chateau sister tears du salt. Mmm this shall be a fine vintage.
Love how people are math hammering away so hard over a single freaking unit for a max of 5 freaking s4 guns. Oh these are juicy grapes.
All the while assuming:
A)sisters points dont move
B) sisters squad composition doesnt change
There was a time where BSS squads were min 10
There was a time dominions could only take 2 special weapons per 5 models.
With the emphasis being on model count, i could see sisters squads going that route again. Why not? GW will want to sell models and what better way than to make us buy more boxes of sisters to fill out those min requirements?
Thos in itself is speculation but if it turned out that way, it effectively doubles the cost of those oh so mean and nasty dominion squads. Suddenly theyre 120pts. Im sure even then, the whiners still wouldnt be happy.
Personally i hate the storm bolter stratagem. Why? Because i hate storm bolters and wont use them unless i absolutely have to because im ocd with wysiwyg and have run out of other models for my sisters brigade.
I hate that it applies only to storm bolters.
Would much rather preferred that it applied to all bolt weapons. it could have been 'increase the ap value of bolt weapons in the squad by -1ap and if the unit being fired at has the chaos keyword increase the damage by 1.'
But no. Stupid storm bolters.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.
Kinda like how Conscripts were NEVER a problem and Infantry still aren't a problem?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?
Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?
The answer is things will either stay the same or go down. Anything going up in price has always been the exception, not the rule, and not being touched in the last Chapter Approved means we can say they'll stay the same price.
Now then, go ahead and actually answer my question in how many units went up in price when a codex was released. I'll be waiting.
its likely they will stay the same or go down - so one ot TWO options which odily enough are NOT the same.
"Sigh" - so you don't know any of the answers but claimed you did - well done.
We DONT KNOW how exactly the new AOF system works, WE DON:T KNOW what if any the Dominions have, do they have the same weapons choices, but hey you just keep making assumptions.
You don't even know what the CA Marine pts are now do you???
Sim-Life wrote:If you don't want uninformed, kneejerk reactions don't come to DakkaThe Internet.
Fixed that one for you
Vaktathi wrote:
Being able to rush Repressors up the field like a Rhino but not lose the firepower of the embarked squad makes even basic squads fast to engage?
The army is plenty fast.
I forgot about Repressors, I havent see one in person in years. That would make for a more effective platform to be sure. That said, for a squad of dominions and a repressor, we're talking about 150-160pts if the squad is barebones. They'll kill half a squad of marines or half a vehicle, and then be an immediate priority target for everything else they just moved into range of.
That said, I also doubt anyone writing rules anywhere is considering the Repressor, GW seems to insist on pretending FW units dont exist when writing rules
I worry about Repressors too, and would suspect that FW wont update their rules any time soon. But that said, miracles happen and it isnt like CA hasnt provided updates to FW points/rules before.
I need to finish painting my semi-kitbashed one, before the apocalypse happens an GW release a full plastic kit along with the new SoBs.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.
Kinda like how Conscripts were NEVER a problem and Infantry still aren't a problem?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?
Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?
The answer is things will either stay the same or go down. Anything going up in price has always been the exception, not the rule, and not being touched in the last Chapter Approved means we can say they'll stay the same price.
Now then, go ahead and actually answer my question in how many units went up in price when a codex was released. I'll be waiting.
its likely they will stay the same or go down - so one ot TWO options which odily enough are NOT the same.
"Sigh" - so you don't know any of the answers but claimed you did - well done.
We DONT KNOW how exactly the new AOF system works, WE DON:T KNOW what if any the Dominions have, do they have the same weapons choices, but hey you just keep making assumptions.
You don't even know what the CA Marine pts are now do you???
Well the leaks are coming in, so.. yeah. Chaos Marines apparently stayed the same price so we can expect Tactical Marines to do the same.
Also I did see Melta Guns somewhere go down to 14. So there's that.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
Well, currently all I'm seeing is non-Sister players complaining about not getting what Sisters got.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
Well, currently all I'm seeing is non-Sister players complaining about not getting what Sisters got.
Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.
Like the Engines fighting twice and getting a 5+++. Compare that to any other walker and it seems a bit silly.
Penitent Engines now? You know, the glass cannon that cannot survive a stiff breeze of bullets flying past it? Come on guys. Penitent engines are like -1 on every stat from Hellbrutes/Dreadnoughts. They have no kit options, so no lascannon + ML from 4' away, no... it is 8" heavy flamers + charge.
They have no rides, no pods, no protection, and 7" movement. No Acts of Faith to help push them forward, sinners don't get such nice things.
If a Penitent Engine dives into your lines and destroys your army, it is because you misplayed it and didn't prioritize it. You have every effort (1-2 turns) to do something about it before it arrives to kick your teeth in.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.
And it is a guess - as you've not played the new rules yet.
And possibly not the old rules either. Lot of people complaining about penitents with double attacks and rerolls to hit as if they didn't already do that (and one particularly poorly thought out troll post on facebook complaining that three penitent engines were tabling his tau/guard gunlines on the first turn).
BlaxicanX wrote: Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable
Of course. That's why we've been playing sisters all these years, the most broken of all tournament dominating factions. Makes total sense.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Penitent Engines now? You know, the glass cannon that cannot survive a stiff breeze of bullets flying past it? Come on guys. Penitent engines are like -1 on every stat from Hellbrutes/Dreadnoughts. They have no kit options, so no lascannon + ML from 4' away, no... it is 8" heavy flamers + charge.
They have no rides, no pods, no protection, and 7" movement. No Acts of Faith to help push them forward, sinners don't get such nice things.
If a Penitent Engine dives into your lines and destroys your army, it is because you misplayed it and didn't prioritize it. You have every effort (1-2 turns) to do something about it before it arrives to kick your teeth in.
Exalted. Penitent Engines are extremely limited in what they can do, the new rules seem appropriate.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.
And it is a guess - as you've not played the new rules yet.
And possibly not the old rules either. Lot of people complaining about penitents with double attacks and rerolls to hit as if they didn't already do that (and one particularly poorly thought out troll post on facebook complaining that three penitent engines were tabling his tau/guard gunlines on the first turn).
BlaxicanX wrote: Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable
Of course. That's why we've been playing sisters all these years, the most broken of all tournament dominating factions. Makes total sense.
They're the only army you can blame price on for them not showing up anywhere.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.
Dunno duncare, my point was that BlaxicanX was predicting the exact opposite of what's happening right now lol. Looking forward to him predicting how we'll see the sun rise in the West and set in the East soon!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.
Dunno duncare, my point was that BlaxicanX was predicting the exact opposite of what's happening right now lol.
Looking forward to him predicting how we'll see the sun rise in the West and set in the East soon!
Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma. It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma. It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma. It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save) It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Yeah, it's absolutely insane. Definitely should be around 2cp or toned down to +1 pen.
I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
We're already seeing it ITT. The new AoF look extremely powerful, but it's not good enough because it's not as reliable as orders.
And you plan on doing that by...taking the record yourself first? Because holy goodness, have I never heard anything as bad as this in all my time on Dakka, and I got some DOOZIES leading up to 8th's launch. Also, you're probably wrong? We only know what the top tier, hardest to pull of AoF is and it's...fight twice...in an army that's terrible at melee. For all we know the other AoFs could be: +1" range, +1 bravery, +3" movement, +1 to run, reroll charges(in an army that doesn't really fight).
Oh and another thing, this entire discussion of the strat STARTED because grey knights have a similar strat that, in a vacuum, isn't as good. The VERY CORE of this argument comes from 'b-but Sisters get that and marines only g-get this?! *UGLY SOBS*.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.
Dunno duncare, my point was that BlaxicanX was predicting the exact opposite of what's happening right now lol. Looking forward to him predicting how we'll see the sun rise in the West and set in the East soon!
Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.
You are currently firing canonballs in a house made entirely out of sugar glass.
And how would you know? You and everyone else who have been squawking about sister being OP because they have Meltaguns or whatever, know almost nothing about how Sisters of Battle play, or where the army was before these changes, or even what the changes ARE. Most of you haven't even SEEN an SoB army in the wild, let alone played against or WITH one. On top of that, the book hasn't even been leaked yet. For all you...people know a SoB stormbolter could be 200pts and the other AoFs we haven't seen could be different variations of 'kill off your own units for no gain'.
You're all terrified an army you never had to think about before might have a toy you don't get to play with.
It's pretty clear who the entitled ones are, and it's not the people who waited YEARS and MULTIPLE EDITIONS for something as basic as an actual printed, not crammed into a white dwarf codex. It's the people who have spent the last SIX PAGES projecting and raging over ONE stratagem and a bunch of abilities you don't even know for sure that Sisters HAVE yet.
I want to add that I do apologize for my initial visceral reaction to the proposed AoF changes when they dropped, but I knew, even as I typed that I was likely wrong. Because that's what happens when you go off of your first knee-jerk reaction. I learned that lesson in the lead up to 8th. Hell, it was almost 12 hours before I realized that SoB probably weren't getting the same abilities they had in the old AoF system, outside of fight twice. That said, it doesn't seem that that realization has hit the non-sisters people yet.
For me, the most important detail of this reveal was that the beta dex will present both Ministorum and Sororitas units. That's pretty huge, because it means that the official dex will likely do the same.
This is kind of a shame, because the Ministorum need some really important fixes, and sharing space with Sororitas makes that less likely. The lack of generic HQ cripples the Ministorum. You get one detachment, and even then, only if you like Jacobus.
The Blackstone Fortress priest has 40k rules, but I haven't seen them, so I don't know if he's HQ or Elite. Even then, that's only 2 HQ units.
Also, the Dialogus, Mistress of Repentence, Hospitaler and Imagifier need to be able to keep up with the squads they buff.
If we get that fix, faith will still be workable, even as pool (especially if the Martyrdom strat carries over).
PenitentJake wrote: For me, the most important detail of this reveal was that the beta dex will present both Ministorum and Sororitas units. That's pretty huge, because it means that the official dex will likely do the same.
This is kind of a shame, because the Ministorum need some really important fixes, and sharing space with Sororitas makes that less likely. The lack of generic HQ cripples the Ministorum. You get one detachment, and even then, only if you like Jacobus.
The Blackstone Fortress priest has 40k rules, but I haven't seen them, so I don't know if he's HQ or Elite. Even then, that's only 2 HQ units.
Also, the Dialogus, Mistress of Repentence, Hospitaler and Imagifier need to be able to keep up with the squads they buff.
If we get that fix, faith will still be workable, even as pool (especially if the Martyrdom strat carries over).
Damn I can't wait for this book!
The Twitch TV leaks have said that the priest datasheet is getting split into an Elite and an HQ. There are also murmurings that the imagifier is going to be a unit upgrade now, rather than a Character.
I don't think that strategem looks that bad or game breaking. It basically creates one very, very powerful unit in a dominion squad fully kitted out with stormbolters which is relatively easy to handle and neutralise. It's indeed very good, but it simply can't be game breaking due to its limited scope and damage output. If there is a trick for the strategem to affect more than one squad at a time, then it would be very problematic.
No one knows yet. None of the stuff from the SoB book that wasn't in the preview or the CA Twitch coverage has leaked. They could be 45ppm now for all we know.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote: I don't think that strategem looks that bad or game breaking. It basically creates one very, very powerful unit in a dominion squad fully kitted out with stormbolters which is relatively easy to handle and neutralise. It's indeed very good, but it simply can't be game breaking due to its limited scope and damage output. If there is a trick for the strategem to affect more than one squad at a time, then it would be very problematic.
There isn't. So far. We also have no idea if the new AoF system actually buffs shooting at all either. The latest buzz is that most of the AoFs outside of the one shown are rather nerfed from their previous iterations.
The way I see it, it isn't exactly Machine Spirit Resurgent.
It's a good effect for a small unit.
And this is absolutely not going to replace melta-dominions. We have no other tank-breaking option; especially with the change to act of faith. The answer is Doms carry melta or lose.
Yes you do, you have every other Imperial codex to draw units from.
Technically speaking everyone has every codex to draw units from, if you're going with the classic 'Why don't you just try NOT being your army?' route.
"Don't think orkz are strong enough on their own? Just play Eldar! I don't understand why you'd complain about Orkz when you can just buy all Eldar stuff and bring that!" lol.
<Orders> - one of
- 6+ FnP - Faith roll +1
- Gain faith point when unit wiped out
- Gain faith point when enemy unit wiped out on 4+
- During first round of combat gain +1 S, +1 A
- Cannot lose more than 1 model to moral, and overwatch hits on 5+
(Celestine, hospitaller, dialogus don't get any of these)
<Faith>
Army has 3 faith points, plus 1 for every 10 full models
Each act of faith can only be attempted once per turn (per army, not per unit)
Roll equal or higher than target value to use power
Add +1 to tests of faith rolls for units with simulacrum imperialis (for 10 points per squad)
Vehicles don't have act of faith, nor to priests
-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase
<Faction Rules>
Shield of faith, 6++
Deny the witch on 1d6 (aka - a 1.3% chance of stopping the first smite each round)
<HQ>
<Celestine> 160pts +gemini, returns on the same spot rather than deepstriking, same old shield bonus, no faith bonus noted. Apparently weaker now as well (lost a wound).
<Canoness> - no sign of the illusive jump canoness
<Jacobus> - 50pts, +1 leadership banner
<Missionary> - potentially reduces losses from moral
<TROOPS>
<Battle Sisters> Sill 9 points each. Simulacrum is part of the unit
<FAST>
<Seraphim> - gain +1 shield of faith save rather than the old reroll. Rumours that hand flamers are back to d6 shots.
<Dominions> - nothing mentioned
<ELITE>
<Gemini> Are here now apparently, which means Celestines old squad-level bodyguard protection and faith sharing is gone and replaced with the regular 2+ mortal wound bodyguard. Also celestine can't revive them if they are all killed, only if at least one survives. So there is that.
<Celestians> - nothing mentioned
<Repentia> - reportedly still have the gimpy mini-eviscerators
<Mistress of Repentance> - nothing mentioned
<Preachers> - nothing mentioned
<Death Cultists> - don't take up slots if you have a priest
<Arco Flagellants> - don't take up slots if you have a priest
<Crusaders> - don't take up slots if you have a priest
<Hospitallers> - nothing mentioned
<Dialogus> - apparently an AoF reroll aura, and much more expensive now
<HEAVY>
<Retributors> - nothing mentioned
<Exorcists> - 125pts, up to D6 damage
<Penitent Engines> 5+ FnP, no longer needs to roll for the second attack. Still over 100pts each even after the heavy flamer points drop.
Celestine has been pretty viciously nerf batted, her mobility is _gone_
The sisters alpha strike (such that it was) appears to be gone, down to the three scouting dominions. No fast moving seraphim, no double-shooting retributors, and the exorcist still languishes.
Points savings on meltaguns but seemingly little else. Perhaps enough across the board for an extra retributor squad.
No meaningful defense against psychic heavy armies.
Stratagems, relics, and points costs still to consider.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.
Kinda like how Conscripts were NEVER a problem and Infantry still aren't a problem?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?
Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?
The answer is things will either stay the same or go down. Anything going up in price has always been the exception, not the rule, and not being touched in the last Chapter Approved means we can say they'll stay the same price.
Now then, go ahead and actually answer my question in how many units went up in price when a codex was released. I'll be waiting.
its likely they will stay the same or go down - so one ot TWO options which odily enough are NOT the same.
"Sigh" - so you don't know any of the answers but claimed you did - well done.
We DONT KNOW how exactly the new AOF system works, WE DON:T KNOW what if any the Dominions have, do they have the same weapons choices, but hey you just keep making assumptions.
You don't even know what the CA Marine pts are now do you???
Well the leaks are coming in, so.. yeah. Chaos Marines apparently stayed the same price so we can expect Tactical Marines to do the same.
Also I did see Melta Guns somewhere go down to 14. So there's that.
And oh look we had some points increrases and a wound decrease on St C, Sisters same pts cost, Acts of Faith appear to be both crap and hard to do, we lost our old ones that did stuff. But hey Plasma guns (which we can't have went down for Feths sake)
Yeah but we got a single good strat and you want to take that away - sheesh
Crimson wrote: Well, I don't think there's need to worry that the Sisters will be gamebreakingly OP...
Going to play a few games of new sisters against index sisters once the book comes through - initial impressions are that even without stratagems and <orders> the index will hold the edge.
Crimson wrote: What Order is Celestine? Can she be used by any order without losing the boni?
Appears to be no <Order> for celestine or the non-militant units, so no restriction on taking them.
Lol at people worrying Penitent Engines will be OP. At best they can hide behind terrain to counter attack. At worst they are just like before, too slow to get into combat and die to medium S weaponry.
On top of that, the models are top candidates for being the hardest to put together, so no one actually has more than a few in their collection so it's unlikely you'll actually see them outside of proxies. Oh wait, they're still over 100pts and can't use faith, yeah you won't see them.
As for the larger leak drop from A.T.:
That's pretty rough.
Long range firepower is nearly halved. Rets lose double tap, and rule of 3 prevents adding any more long range firepower. And the super duper ultra strong strat that has everyone in the internet losing their minds won't work on them anyway.
Exorcists look like a no go still, unless they are super cheap?
Celestine looks questionable.
Faith powers looking decidedly lackluster, especially considering they aren't even guaranteed to work. Sure there's a 'fight twice' power, in many armies that would be good, in Sisters it's a tiny bit better than giving a 'fight twice' strat to Tau (that means not very good at all). Faith is roughly the power level of that terrible WD codex, decidedly less useful than it is currently or than it was in the Witchhunters Codex. Vessel of the Emperor looks way overcosted now if the actual faith powers are this bad.
Building a list to try to maximize faith sees like it might be a bad idea, especially considering you can only attempt each once per turn, don't imagine you'll run out of Faith points too soon, and even if you do, it wouldn't even hamper your plans that much.
Deny the Witch is still a complete waste of ink.
Still no way to handle a Knight without Souping, which is really the litmus test of a Codex these days. If you don't have a reasonable way to outlast or destroy a Castellan in a reasonable amount of time, then the Codex isn't going to hold up.
Hopes:
Maybe Immolators came way down in points and we can resurrect Immo Spam days?
Maybe this reveal isn't accurate?
Maybe more strats are really good?
Maybe all the units that were unmentioned are really good?
*Edit* nevermind, saw the full video, Hope is officially Dashed
All based on rumors still of course. Maybe it won't be this bad. Lists still looking like max Dom's, Seraphim (though not a priority due to mobility nerf), Rets (just with way less damage output), index Repressors, and BSS squads. Soup to fill in the massive deficiencies in long range firepower, close combat, and superheavy elimination.
<Warlord Traits>
- gain 1 faith point of a 4+ at the start of each turn (Celestine has this, seemingly replacing both her old optional trait and her automatic faith gen)
- reroll failed charge rolls for warlord, and re-roll failed wounds on the charge (Jacobus, he of no close combat ability, has this)
- re-roll failed moral in 6", and units in 6" can use warlords Ld for tests
- subtract 1 from Ld of enemy units within 6"
- shield of faith save for units within 6" of warlord is improved to 5+
- one extra deny the witch per turn (note that this is the 1d6 deny the witch - and the chance of denying a second smite in any given turn is _0%_), but it does also grant a 12" aura of -1 to psychic tests which is handy
<Relics>
- add 3" to the models aura effects
- power sword +2 strength, -3 save, 3 damage
- pistol 3, strength 5, -1 save, 2 damage
- 6" aura that improves the shield of faith deny rolls to 2d6 - a character castled amongst a group of units generates a fair number of 24" full deny rolls with this
- 6" aura that refunds faith points on 5+
- 3++, canoness only - yes, sisters get a mundane storm shield as a 1/army relic.
<Stratagems>
-generic extra relics
-3cps, share faith with units within 6"
-2cps, arcos automatically roll 3 on their d3 attacks, but have a one in six chance of being instantly killed (per model in the unit)
-1cp, deepstriking seraphim shoot twice after deepstriking, plus the bonus range for hand flamers for one of those
-1cp, reroll failed wound rolls against a psyker
-1cp, chance for repentia to inflict a mortal wound when killed in assault
-1cp, stormbolters in unit gain damage 2 and AP-2 for a single shot
-1cp, a unit with a melta, flame, and bolter weapon gains +1 to wound for a single shot (gimped VotLW)
-1cp, reroll wound rolls of 1 for a phase... but only after a successful faith test
-1cp, sacred banner grants +1 shield of faith for a single phase - but has to be spent pre-emptively at the start of the game and requires a simulacrum in the unit
-1cp, after failing a moral test, halve the number of casualties
-1cp, 4+ psychic deny
-1cp, gain d3 faith points when a character dies (or 3 if warlord)
-1cp, convert 1 cp into 1 faith point
Further thoughts:
- the deny the witch of a cluster of units supported by the deny relic is quite impressive. A static gunline/castle could be generating a great many full deny rolls
- 6" faith sharing and potentially buffed exorcist damage further promotes castling
- a lot of very circumstantial and/or marginal stratagems. The previously powerful martyrdom stratagem has been replaced by a somewhat mediocre faith regen strat
- no mobility. The sisters are down to rhino rush without stratagems/faith, or a crawling 6" infantry advance with poor disengagement options.
- nothing reactive, aside from potential mortal wounds from repentia.
I've seen it suggested that arco-flagellants have -1 AP on their weapons. And exorcists may be up to d6 strength making them a gimpy but tough las-predator rather than a gimpy but tough las-razorback.
A.T. wrote: ...- one extra deny the witch per turn (note that this is the 1d6 deny the witch - and the chance of denying a second smite in any given turn is _0%_), but it does also grant a 12" aura of -1 to psychic tests which is handy...
Stack with a Culexis and suddenly 1d6 deny doesn't look as bad.
AnomanderRake wrote: Stack with a Culexis and suddenly 1d6 deny doesn't look as bad.
The 1d6 deny is always bad as it only works when your opponent passes a test with a 5 (aside from the rare rating 4 powers) and then is only denied on a 6.
For for your basic smites this is a 1.3% chance against the first and a 0% chance against the second and subsequent casting.
The second part of the trait has potential though.
I gotta say I'm very disappointed with the new Act of Faith system - it adds another layer of bookkeeping for a benefit that is weaker than the previous system, and much less reliable. Even worse is that it scales with army size even worse than the previous Acts of Faith since it seems you can use each AoF only once per round.
Anything else is pretty much unchanged apart from having some pretty decent stratagems and one that seemed too cheap for what it potentially does, but since we don't get to double-tap in the shooting phase it's probably just a good one, not an OP one at 1CP
A.T. wrote: ...- one extra deny the witch per turn (note that this is the 1d6 deny the witch - and the chance of denying a second smite in any given turn is _0%_), but it does also grant a 12" aura of -1 to psychic tests which is handy...
Stack with a Culexis and suddenly 1d6 deny doesn't look as bad.
it doesn't look bad when compared to not having a Culexus, but it's still very unlikely - less than 5% probably.
nekooni wrote: I gotta say I'm very disappointed with the new Act of Faith system - it adds another layer of bookkeeping for a benefit that is weaker than the previous system, and much less reliable. Even worse is that it scales with army size even worse than the previous Acts of Faith since it seems you can use each AoF only once per round.
Anything else is pretty much unchanged apart from having some pretty decent stratagems and one that seemed too cheap for what it potentially does, but since we don't get to double-tap in the shooting phase it's probably just a good one, not an OP one at 1CP
Acts of Faith gave Sisters some chance - they fethed that up and gave a few paltry toys in exchange.
Celestine is also much weaker.
Matyrdom fethed
Vehicles don't get Convinctions only Infantry.
Its a very very poor attempt at a Codex when you at ones they obviously gave a damn about - Dark Elder, Guard etc.
But essential. You'll not be able to chase down a fast opponent like DE now that hand of the emperor is gone, and the slower seraphim are going to cut down on the melta you can get in against knights and other big targets.
It's still some considerable way short of a predator against T8, but it's cheap. And frankly what else are you going to field if not taking allies.
But essential. You'll not be able to chase down a fast opponent like DE now that hand of the emperor is gone, and the slower seraphim are going to cut down on the melta you can get in against knights and other big targets.
It's still some considerable way short of a predator against T8, but it's cheap. And frankly what else are you going to field if not taking allies.
That's a bit how I feel about Sororitas in general. "what else will you field if you aren't taking allies?" is not a good look.
Been working on making a Sisters list that I think would be ok taking to a tournament and it's... difficult. The a detatchment that does seem decent is a Sacred Rose Outrider with 3 Dominion units. One with 5 SBs, the others with 4 meltas a combine flamer and the rest with Bolters. The SB unit to make use of Blessed Ammo, the others to allow activation of the Holy Trinity. Those Strats increase the Dom's effectiveness reasonably well. Really just using Faith to increase some to hit roll, once per turn Add a Canoness to run around a punch stuff. Not sure what to have them ride in, if anything. Rhinos I guess.
The other strat that will see some use will probably be the one to help Deny the Witch.
Beyond that I don't know. Won't need to load up on bodies for more Faith points, and really don't need a ton of CPs for Sisters Strats either. I'm just not sure what to take to do the heavy lifting, what is going to be the backbone?
The other use I've thought of is a Cheap Battalion to generate CPs for another force like Custodes or Knights. 250ish pts for 3 BSS squads and 2 Canoness, with max Storm Bolters to occasionally use Blessed Ammo. You could even take 2 of those detatchment (one would have to have a Missionary) to keep the Custodes or Knights with enough CPs. They'll be tougher to shift than the loyal 32, and might give some extra ways to deny Psychic powers, but won't generate quite as many CPs.
Creeping Dementia wrote: Beyond that I don't know. Won't need to load up on bodies for more Faith points, and really don't need a ton of CPs for Sisters Strats either. I'm just not sure what to take to do the heavy lifting, what is going to be the backbone?
Three exorcists, a canoness with the deny relic, and an infantry screen.
Divine Guidance unfortunately does not stack with the canoness re-roll, which throws both it and the shared faith stratagem out the window for this lot. And it all costs as much as a castellan for quite significantly less firepower. But it is what it is, and brings a fair few deny the witch rolls.
Creeping Dementia wrote: Been working on making a Sisters list that I think would be ok taking to a tournament and it's... difficult. The a detatchment that does seem decent is a Sacred Rose Outrider with 3 Dominion units. One with 5 SBs, the others with 4 meltas a combine flamer and the rest with Bolters. The SB unit to make use of Blessed Ammo, the others to allow activation of the Holy Trinity. Those Strats increase the Dom's effectiveness reasonably well. Really just using Faith to increase some to hit roll, once per turn Add a Canoness to run around a punch stuff. Not sure what to have them ride in, if anything. Rhinos I guess.
The other strat that will see some use will probably be the one to help Deny the Witch.
Beyond that I don't know. Won't need to load up on bodies for more Faith points, and really don't need a ton of CPs for Sisters Strats either. I'm just not sure what to take to do the heavy lifting, what is going to be the backbone?
The other use I've thought of is a Cheap Battalion to generate CPs for another force like Custodes or Knights. 250ish pts for 3 BSS squads and 2 Canoness, with max Storm Bolters to occasionally use Blessed Ammo. You could even take 2 of those detatchment (one would have to have a Missionary) to keep the Custodes or Knights with enough CPs. They'll be tougher to shift than the loyal 32, and might give some extra ways to deny Psychic powers, but won't generate quite as many CPs.
Quick note on Holy Trinity: you need one Bolter, one flamer and one melta - a combiflamer will only count as either the flamer or the bolter, but not both. At least thats how Id read it.
If these leaks are true, and unless there's all kinds of awesome we don't know about yet, this is very disappointing.
How could GW think we might like this? I mean, that's the really depressing thing- somebody actually thought this was a good idea, and editorial oversight failed to stop them from making a terrible mistake.
It's a beta, so hopefully we can still do something.
PenitentJake wrote: If these leaks are true, and unless there's all kinds of awesome we don't know about yet, this is very disappointing.
How could GW think we might like this? I mean, that's the really depressing thing- somebody actually thought this was a good idea, and editorial oversight failed to stop them from making a terrible mistake.
It's a beta, so hopefully we can still do something.
PenitentJake wrote: If these leaks are true, and unless there's all kinds of awesome we don't know about yet, this is very disappointing.
How could GW think we might like this? I mean, that's the really depressing thing- somebody actually thought this was a good idea, and editorial oversight failed to stop them from making a terrible mistake.
It's a beta, so hopefully we can still do something.
We need to be sure to get plenty of play testing in. My biggest concern at this point is that no one will play the beta after a month because of how bad it is and GW doesn't fix anything in the actual release due to lack of in game feedback.
Sim-Life wrote: Everything seems fine to me. I've been doing well with Sisters up till now and they got cheaper and have more options. Don't see the problem.
I don't believe that you've seen the new CA. Either that or you haven't actually played Sisters. Because they haven't really gotten cheaper, and they have less options.
Even if you're fine with what they do have now, it's definitely less options for right around the same cost.
Creeping Dementia wrote: Been working on making a Sisters list that I think would be ok taking to a tournament and it's... difficult. The a detatchment that does seem decent is a Sacred Rose Outrider with 3 Dominion units. One with 5 SBs, the others with 4 meltas a combine flamer and the rest with Bolters. The SB unit to make use of Blessed Ammo, the others to allow activation of the Holy Trinity. Those Strats increase the Dom's effectiveness reasonably well. Really just using Faith to increase some to hit roll, once per turn Add a Canoness to run around a punch stuff. Not sure what to have them ride in, if anything. Rhinos I guess.
The other strat that will see some use will probably be the one to help Deny the Witch.
Beyond that I don't know. Won't need to load up on bodies for more Faith points, and really don't need a ton of CPs for Sisters Strats either. I'm just not sure what to take to do the heavy lifting, what is going to be the backbone?
The other use I've thought of is a Cheap Battalion to generate CPs for another force like Custodes or Knights. 250ish pts for 3 BSS squads and 2 Canoness, with max Storm Bolters to occasionally use Blessed Ammo. You could even take 2 of those detatchment (one would have to have a Missionary) to keep the Custodes or Knights with enough CPs. They'll be tougher to shift than the loyal 32, and might give some extra ways to deny Psychic powers, but won't generate quite as many CPs.
Quick note on Holy Trinity: you need one Bolter, one flamer and one melta - a combiflamer will only count as either the flamer or the bolter, but not both. At least thats how Id read it.
Also, the 4 melta Holy Trinity Setup Maths out to actually be worse than 5 Meltas and a command point reroll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sim-Life wrote: Tabletop Tactics batrep said Exorcists went down by 10pts and do d6 damage now.
Also Tabletop tactics is full of gak. They were going off from the index. They haven't changed points from last year's chapter approved.
So, there's a lot to digest about the Sisters Beta Codex now that I've seen some reviews and read the leaks myself.
In short: the changes are a slight nerf overall and I'll explain that as I go.
There are two parts of the Beta Codex that concern me the most. Acts of Faith and... the rest of the Codex.
The Acts of Faith system previously didn't scale well with the army. You could take Imagifiers but they'd often be left in the dust by other sisters units getting the benefit of the acts of faith. Now, it... sort of scales? There's a two-sided issue.
For one, if it was solely based on Faith Points, then you would burn through all of your Faith Points turn 1 using the +1 to hit stratagem across your army for a potent alpha strike, or move your whole army an extra 3" to get to a better position and take objectives early on, and then you wouldn't have any Acts of Faith left for the rest of the game.
On the other hand, if they only had the limit of 1 type of Act of Faith each turn, then you'd use each of the Acts of Faith EVERY turn and there would be very little flavor to your army. You'd also be throwing your army to the whims of the dice, seeing which of your units actually get a benefit and which don't.
The combination of Faith Points PLUS limiting you to one type of AoF per turn creates an odd middle ground where you're likely to still run out of Faith Points by turn 2 or 3 and not get a ton out of them.
Then the Acts of Faith themselves are... meh. They're nowhere near where they were before. Now, to be fair, moving and shooting out of sequence is garbage that people are sick of from the Ynnari faction. It needed to go. It really, really needed to go. That said, going from moving twice to only going an extra 3" is an INCREDIBLE nerf. That, on top of having a relatively lower chance of getting the Acts of Faith to pop off means the whole system is much, much less powerful than where it was.
So that's the first part. On the whole, Acts of Faith are down. It's sad because it's the most unique thing about this faction. In my opinion, you could play the Sisters of Battle entirely without using Acts of Faith as they are, and you're likely to have the exact same outcome than if you had actually used them. That's how meh they are.
The rest of the codex is... pretty good. Points decreases across the board, really fantastic stratagems, some really solid non-faith-based Orders and warlord traits and relics. Overlapping invul saves that also apply to vehicles is also amazing. Your rhinos, immolators, and repressors can potentially have a 4+ invul save just for hanging around a Cannoness and Celestine. I see castling lists being very powerful for that, slowly trundling up the table and blowing things away once they get into melta range. Now, that's not great because Sisters NEED to get up close where their flamers, bolters, and meltas can do the most damage, but having a 4+ or 5+ invul save across a bundle of units is really, really nice, especially in a meta where there's a LOT of high ap and high strength weapons.
I think there are going to be lists that do well with Sisters, but they aren't going to rely entirely on Celestine and Acts of Faith. I think that was GW's plan all along. The trouble is, they've given us no 'generic' living saint that could benefit from Order bonuses and the Acts of Faith system now is flavorless, cumbersome, and frankly, just weak.
My main feedback when CA comes out is to find a better balance of points, because as it stands, Faith Points are just Command Points that can fail :/
Also, the 4 melta Holy Trinity Setup Maths out to actually be worse than 5 Meltas and a command point reroll.
That is a good point. Bolter and flamer emphasis with a combimelta will be the better use of that Strategem. Real question is should Sisters be involved in anti-tank at all, or just focus on anti-horde/elite infantry and soup in decent anti-tank.
I've not seen much on that front. Repentia may have shed a couple of points, Jacobus isn't ludicrous anymore, and Celestine is cheaper (though arguably not enough to cover her nerfing).
The rest are game wide changes with the sisters just keeping pace on weapons. Need the book of course but at least one unit (the dialogus) has gone up and the core sisters and vehicles haven't moved.
drbored wrote: My main feedback when CA comes out is to find a better balance of points, because as it stands, Faith Points are just Command Points that can fail :/
Raises the interesting though of going all the way - making faith abilities cost different amounts of points just like stratagems and ditching the roll.
I've not seen much on that front. Repentia may have shed a couple of points, Jacobus isn't ludicrous anymore, and Celestine is cheaper (though arguably not enough to cover her nerfing).
The rest are game wide changes with the sisters just keeping pace on weapons. Need the book of course but at least one unit (the dialogus) has gone up and the core sisters and vehicles haven't moved.
drbored wrote: My main feedback when CA comes out is to find a better balance of points, because as it stands, Faith Points are just Command Points that can fail :/
Raises the interesting though of going all the way - making faith abilities cost different amounts of points just like stratagems and ditching the roll.
I'd honestly be down for that, but they'd have to give us more points to work with and figure out a way to make that scale with army size without using detachments.
I think a better system would be to get rid of faith points and keep the randomness, but say we can only use two or three Acts of Faith per turn. Gives us tactical flexibility, keeps us going even to turn 6, but there's always that chance that a sister's faith isn't strong enough, which I think is better from a fluff standpoint even if it's worse from a competitive standpoint. Competitive types tend to hate randomness after all.
I mean, if you're going to have the abilities be a lot weaker, you may as well let us use them for the full game instead of giving us another arbitrary point value to keep track of throughout a game.
Also, the 4 melta Holy Trinity Setup Maths out to actually be worse than 5 Meltas and a command point reroll.
That is a good point. Bolter and flamer emphasis with a combimelta will be the better use of that Strategem. Real question is should Sisters be involved in anti-tank at all, or just focus on anti-horde/elite infantry and soup in decent anti-tank.
Sisters should have workable mid range anti tank to at least have the ability to work as a mono faction without having to constantly rely on triple doms, also we should have a flyer since forge world took away access to the avenger strike fighter.
drbored wrote: I'd honestly be down for that, but they'd have to give us more points to work with and figure out a way to make that scale with army size without using detachments.
Points per unit taken (multiple points for characters) and the same again when the unit is destroyed.
Right out of codex witch hunters. Small units give more points but less bang for buck and faith is gradually restored throughout the game so it never entirely dries up, but you don't have enough that you can just throw out the 3 point powers all of the time.
drbored wrote: I'd honestly be down for that, but they'd have to give us more points to work with and figure out a way to make that scale with army size without using detachments.
Points per unit taken (multiple points for characters) and the same again when the unit is destroyed.
Right out of codex witch hunters. Small units give more points but less bang for buck and faith is gradually restored throughout the game so it never entirely dries up, but you don't have enough that you can just throw out the 3 point powers all of the time.
Yeah, that might be the way to do it if that's the way they decide to go.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.
Oh look who's talking! The resident entitled Chaos player! How cute! Can you make a cute smile when you say this? Are you going to give us a small speech on how chaos marines deserved new models more than Sisters of Battle? I'm really looking forward to hearing it you know!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also can't believe they kept the stupid shield of faith as is. One part only work of AP-4 weapons (not on mortal wounds, not on ap-3 weapons, …) and the other one only work on WC5 spells that are cast with rolling EXACTLY a 5. And in both case, they then require a 6 to work. Ridiculous waste of ink.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.
Oh look who's talking! The resident entitled Chaos player! How cute! Can you make a cute smile when you say this? Are you going to give us a small speech on how chaos marines deserved new models more than Sisters of Battle? I'm really looking forward to hearing it you know!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also can't believe they kept the stupid shield of faith as is. One part only work of AP-4 weapons (not on mortal wounds, not on ap-3 weapons, …) and the other one only work on WC5 spells that are cast with rolling EXACTLY a 5. And in both case, they then require a 6 to work. Ridiculous waste of ink.
They actually do need some new official models, so you would be correct.
However I'm primarily a Necrons player. You just wouldn't guess it because the army is bad enough I hardly join that Tactica thread and Marines create more discussion.
drbored wrote: So, there's a lot to digest about the Sisters Beta Codex now that I've seen some reviews and read the leaks myself.
In short: the changes are a slight nerf overall and I'll explain that as I go.
There are two parts of the Beta Codex that concern me the most. Acts of Faith and... the rest of the Codex.
The Acts of Faith system previously didn't scale well with the army. You could take Imagifiers but they'd often be left in the dust by other sisters units getting the benefit of the acts of faith. Now, it... sort of scales? There's a two-sided issue.
For one, if it was solely based on Faith Points, then you would burn through all of your Faith Points turn 1 using the +1 to hit stratagem across your army for a potent alpha strike, or move your whole army an extra 3" to get to a better position and take objectives early on, and then you wouldn't have any Acts of Faith left for the rest of the game.
On the other hand, if they only had the limit of 1 type of Act of Faith each turn, then you'd use each of the Acts of Faith EVERY turn and there would be very little flavor to your army. You'd also be throwing your army to the whims of the dice, seeing which of your units actually get a benefit and which don't.
The combination of Faith Points PLUS limiting you to one type of AoF per turn creates an odd middle ground where you're likely to still run out of Faith Points by turn 2 or 3 and not get a ton out of them.
Then the Acts of Faith themselves are... meh. They're nowhere near where they were before. Now, to be fair, moving and shooting out of sequence is garbage that people are sick of from the Ynnari faction. It needed to go. It really, really needed to go. That said, going from moving twice to only going an extra 3" is an INCREDIBLE nerf. That, on top of having a relatively lower chance of getting the Acts of Faith to pop off means the whole system is much, much less powerful than where it was.
So that's the first part. On the whole, Acts of Faith are down. It's sad because it's the most unique thing about this faction. In my opinion, you could play the Sisters of Battle entirely without using Acts of Faith as they are, and you're likely to have the exact same outcome than if you had actually used them. That's how meh they are.
The rest of the codex is... pretty good. Points decreases across the board, really fantastic stratagems, some really solid non-faith-based Orders and warlord traits and relics. Overlapping invul saves that also apply to vehicles is also amazing. Your rhinos, immolators, and repressors can potentially have a 4+ invul save just for hanging around a Cannoness and Celestine. I see castling lists being very powerful for that, slowly trundling up the table and blowing things away once they get into melta range. Now, that's not great because Sisters NEED to get up close where their flamers, bolters, and meltas can do the most damage, but having a 4+ or 5+ invul save across a bundle of units is really, really nice, especially in a meta where there's a LOT of high ap and high strength weapons.
I think there are going to be lists that do well with Sisters, but they aren't going to rely entirely on Celestine and Acts of Faith. I think that was GW's plan all along. The trouble is, they've given us no 'generic' living saint that could benefit from Order bonuses and the Acts of Faith system now is flavorless, cumbersome, and frankly, just weak.
My main feedback when CA comes out is to find a better balance of points, because as it stands, Faith Points are just Command Points that can fail :/
There aren't any real points decreases that weren't also shared by every other army in the game. The actual units themselves are largely unchanged. Which considering how much worse their army rules got, it's a big problem.
I do absolutely agree with you about AoFs. The bonuses are so small, they're hardly worth thinking about. I mean, the shooting bonus is +1 to HIT. Why is it +1 to HIT? Half of our weapons are flamers! We can't even use this stratagem on the entire holy trinity!
When you say 'really fantastic stratagems'...there are 2 really good ones and 3-4 usable ones. The rest are all either about getting more Faith points(which you don't need) or subpar. Warlord traits and relics are solid, but the Order tactics are actually trash. +1 to overwatch is an incredibly small bonus and +1S +1A is only good for one unit and one HQ in the entire book.
We already had overlapping Invul saves. It's not very good. Even a 4++ isn't going to keep vehicles alive. For infantry, that blob is so awful to play with, and so awful to play against, that if it turns out to be even semi-competitive, it's going to need to be nerfed immediately just to keep people who play with or against sisters off of suicide watch. It's likely not good though, because Azrael already does that same thing, but in a better army, and sees only moderate success.
I don't think there are going to be lists that do well with sisters. The lists that didn't rely on Celestine and AoFs got worse and the ones that did go WAY worse. The infantry spam list will get a few people to send GW angry emails about how frustraing it is to play against, but I doubt it will start winning much.
GW's plan was to cock up this army so bad that no one asked them about plastic sisters ever again. Even the lists that look like they might be useful are an absolute slog to deal with and play. Acts of Faith aren't worth bothering with, despite the entire army being built around them.
The index is superior in just about every way. If the codex that comes out next november is anywhere near as bad as this one is, the line is going to flop FAST.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.
Oh look who's talking! The resident entitled Chaos player! How cute! Can you make a cute smile when you say this? Are you going to give us a small speech on how chaos marines deserved new models more than Sisters of Battle? I'm really looking forward to hearing it you know!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also can't believe they kept the stupid shield of faith as is. One part only work of AP-4 weapons (not on mortal wounds, not on ap-3 weapons, …) and the other one only work on WC5 spells that are cast with rolling EXACTLY a 5. And in both case, they then require a 6 to work. Ridiculous waste of ink.
Actually, this is the one part of the book that does kind of work.
There's a warlord trait or relic or w/e that gives everyone within 6" of the model 2d6 deny and it's possible to stack invul bonuses up to 4++(3++ on Seraphim and one Simulacrum unit) The deny one is good and the Invul stacking is fairly useful...it's just going to make the entire army unpleasant to play with or against.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: How do AoF look if put into the setting of Kill Team? Not familiar with KT and am curious.
Kill Team had no official AoF rules. Trialing them, they were useful as they were. (though I didn't use the healing, Commander set wasn't available at that point)
Now they are even more of a waste effort.
drbored wrote: So, there's a lot to digest about the Sisters Beta Codex now that I've seen some reviews and read the leaks myself.
In short: the changes are a slight nerf overall and I'll explain that as I go.
There are two parts of the Beta Codex that concern me the most. Acts of Faith and... the rest of the Codex.
The Acts of Faith system previously didn't scale well with the army. You could take Imagifiers but they'd often be left in the dust by other sisters units getting the benefit of the acts of faith. Now, it... sort of scales? There's a two-sided issue.
For one, if it was solely based on Faith Points, then you would burn through all of your Faith Points turn 1 using the +1 to hit stratagem across your army for a potent alpha strike, or move your whole army an extra 3" to get to a better position and take objectives early on, and then you wouldn't have any Acts of Faith left for the rest of the game.
On the other hand, if they only had the limit of 1 type of Act of Faith each turn, then you'd use each of the Acts of Faith EVERY turn and there would be very little flavor to your army. You'd also be throwing your army to the whims of the dice, seeing which of your units actually get a benefit and which don't.
The combination of Faith Points PLUS limiting you to one type of AoF per turn creates an odd middle ground where you're likely to still run out of Faith Points by turn 2 or 3 and not get a ton out of them.
Then the Acts of Faith themselves are... meh. They're nowhere near where they were before. Now, to be fair, moving and shooting out of sequence is garbage that people are sick of from the Ynnari faction. It needed to go. It really, really needed to go. That said, going from moving twice to only going an extra 3" is an INCREDIBLE nerf. That, on top of having a relatively lower chance of getting the Acts of Faith to pop off means the whole system is much, much less powerful than where it was.
So that's the first part. On the whole, Acts of Faith are down. It's sad because it's the most unique thing about this faction. In my opinion, you could play the Sisters of Battle entirely without using Acts of Faith as they are, and you're likely to have the exact same outcome than if you had actually used them. That's how meh they are.
The rest of the codex is... pretty good. Points decreases across the board, really fantastic stratagems, some really solid non-faith-based Orders and warlord traits and relics. Overlapping invul saves that also apply to vehicles is also amazing. Your rhinos, immolators, and repressors can potentially have a 4+ invul save just for hanging around a Cannoness and Celestine. I see castling lists being very powerful for that, slowly trundling up the table and blowing things away once they get into melta range. Now, that's not great because Sisters NEED to get up close where their flamers, bolters, and meltas can do the most damage, but having a 4+ or 5+ invul save across a bundle of units is really, really nice, especially in a meta where there's a LOT of high ap and high strength weapons.
I think there are going to be lists that do well with Sisters, but they aren't going to rely entirely on Celestine and Acts of Faith. I think that was GW's plan all along. The trouble is, they've given us no 'generic' living saint that could benefit from Order bonuses and the Acts of Faith system now is flavorless, cumbersome, and frankly, just weak.
My main feedback when CA comes out is to find a better balance of points, because as it stands, Faith Points are just Command Points that can fail :/
There aren't any real points decreases that weren't also shared by every other army in the game. The actual units themselves are largely unchanged. Which considering how much worse their army rules got, it's a big problem.
I do absolutely agree with you about AoFs. The bonuses are so small, they're hardly worth thinking about. I mean, the shooting bonus is +1 to HIT. Why is it +1 to HIT? Half of our weapons are flamers! We can't even use this stratagem on the entire holy trinity!
When you say 'really fantastic stratagems'...there are 2 really good ones and 3-4 usable ones. The rest are all either about getting more Faith points(which you don't need) or subpar. Warlord traits and relics are solid, but the Order tactics are actually trash. +1 to overwatch is an incredibly small bonus and +1S +1A is only good for one unit and one HQ in the entire book.
We already had overlapping Invul saves. It's not very good. Even a 4++ isn't going to keep vehicles alive. For infantry, that blob is so awful to play with, and so awful to play against, that if it turns out to be even semi-competitive, it's going to need to be nerfed immediately just to keep people who play with or against sisters off of suicide watch. It's likely not good though, because Azrael already does that same thing, but in a better army, and sees only moderate success.
I don't think there are going to be lists that do well with sisters. The lists that didn't rely on Celestine and AoFs got worse and the ones that did go WAY worse. The infantry spam list will get a few people to send GW angry emails about how frustraing it is to play against, but I doubt it will start winning much.
GW's plan was to cock up this army so bad that no one asked them about plastic sisters ever again. Even the lists that look like they might be useful are an absolute slog to deal with and play. Acts of Faith aren't worth bothering with, despite the entire army being built around them.
The index is superior in just about every way. If the codex that comes out next november is anywhere near as bad as this one is, the line is going to flop FAST.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.
Oh look who's talking! The resident entitled Chaos player! How cute! Can you make a cute smile when you say this? Are you going to give us a small speech on how chaos marines deserved new models more than Sisters of Battle? I'm really looking forward to hearing it you know!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also can't believe they kept the stupid shield of faith as is. One part only work of AP-4 weapons (not on mortal wounds, not on ap-3 weapons, …) and the other one only work on WC5 spells that are cast with rolling EXACTLY a 5. And in both case, they then require a 6 to work. Ridiculous waste of ink.
Actually, this is the one part of the book that does kind of work.
There's a warlord trait or relic or w/e that gives everyone within 6" of the model 2d6 deny and it's possible to stack invul bonuses up to 4++(3++ on Seraphim and one Simulacrum unit) The deny one is good and the Invul stacking is fairly useful...it's just going to make the entire army unpleasant to play with or against.
I've literally never seen someone complain about having a 4++ for their vehicle not being enough until now.
I've literally never seen someone complain about having a 4++ for their vehicle not being enough until now.
That's some entitlement.
The problem isn't that a 4++ "isn't enough", it is that it alone won't carry the army. It is a gimmick, but not a good one. Harlequins have a 4++ on their entire army and aren't really good.
A 4++ on a Leman Russ or Baneblade would be ridiculous, because the army already does other things. A 4++ on an Exorcist (which requires investment of 2 HQs including Celestine and a warlord trait) isn't scary. It doesn't mean anything.
drbored wrote: So, there's a lot to digest about the Sisters Beta Codex now that I've seen some reviews and read the leaks myself.
In short: the changes are a slight nerf overall and I'll explain that as I go.
There are two parts of the Beta Codex that concern me the most. Acts of Faith and... the rest of the Codex.
The Acts of Faith system previously didn't scale well with the army. You could take Imagifiers but they'd often be left in the dust by other sisters units getting the benefit of the acts of faith. Now, it... sort of scales? There's a two-sided issue.
For one, if it was solely based on Faith Points, then you would burn through all of your Faith Points turn 1 using the +1 to hit stratagem across your army for a potent alpha strike, or move your whole army an extra 3" to get to a better position and take objectives early on, and then you wouldn't have any Acts of Faith left for the rest of the game.
On the other hand, if they only had the limit of 1 type of Act of Faith each turn, then you'd use each of the Acts of Faith EVERY turn and there would be very little flavor to your army. You'd also be throwing your army to the whims of the dice, seeing which of your units actually get a benefit and which don't.
The combination of Faith Points PLUS limiting you to one type of AoF per turn creates an odd middle ground where you're likely to still run out of Faith Points by turn 2 or 3 and not get a ton out of them.
Then the Acts of Faith themselves are... meh. They're nowhere near where they were before. Now, to be fair, moving and shooting out of sequence is garbage that people are sick of from the Ynnari faction. It needed to go. It really, really needed to go. That said, going from moving twice to only going an extra 3" is an INCREDIBLE nerf. That, on top of having a relatively lower chance of getting the Acts of Faith to pop off means the whole system is much, much less powerful than where it was.
So that's the first part. On the whole, Acts of Faith are down. It's sad because it's the most unique thing about this faction. In my opinion, you could play the Sisters of Battle entirely without using Acts of Faith as they are, and you're likely to have the exact same outcome than if you had actually used them. That's how meh they are.
The rest of the codex is... pretty good. Points decreases across the board, really fantastic stratagems, some really solid non-faith-based Orders and warlord traits and relics. Overlapping invul saves that also apply to vehicles is also amazing. Your rhinos, immolators, and repressors can potentially have a 4+ invul save just for hanging around a Cannoness and Celestine. I see castling lists being very powerful for that, slowly trundling up the table and blowing things away once they get into melta range. Now, that's not great because Sisters NEED to get up close where their flamers, bolters, and meltas can do the most damage, but having a 4+ or 5+ invul save across a bundle of units is really, really nice, especially in a meta where there's a LOT of high ap and high strength weapons.
I think there are going to be lists that do well with Sisters, but they aren't going to rely entirely on Celestine and Acts of Faith. I think that was GW's plan all along. The trouble is, they've given us no 'generic' living saint that could benefit from Order bonuses and the Acts of Faith system now is flavorless, cumbersome, and frankly, just weak.
My main feedback when CA comes out is to find a better balance of points, because as it stands, Faith Points are just Command Points that can fail :/
There aren't any real points decreases that weren't also shared by every other army in the game. The actual units themselves are largely unchanged. Which considering how much worse their army rules got, it's a big problem.
I do absolutely agree with you about AoFs. The bonuses are so small, they're hardly worth thinking about. I mean, the shooting bonus is +1 to HIT. Why is it +1 to HIT? Half of our weapons are flamers! We can't even use this stratagem on the entire holy trinity!
When you say 'really fantastic stratagems'...there are 2 really good ones and 3-4 usable ones. The rest are all either about getting more Faith points(which you don't need) or subpar. Warlord traits and relics are solid, but the Order tactics are actually trash. +1 to overwatch is an incredibly small bonus and +1S +1A is only good for one unit and one HQ in the entire book.
We already had overlapping Invul saves. It's not very good. Even a 4++ isn't going to keep vehicles alive. For infantry, that blob is so awful to play with, and so awful to play against, that if it turns out to be even semi-competitive, it's going to need to be nerfed immediately just to keep people who play with or against sisters off of suicide watch. It's likely not good though, because Azrael already does that same thing, but in a better army, and sees only moderate success.
I don't think there are going to be lists that do well with sisters. The lists that didn't rely on Celestine and AoFs got worse and the ones that did go WAY worse. The infantry spam list will get a few people to send GW angry emails about how frustraing it is to play against, but I doubt it will start winning much.
GW's plan was to cock up this army so bad that no one asked them about plastic sisters ever again. Even the lists that look like they might be useful are an absolute slog to deal with and play. Acts of Faith aren't worth bothering with, despite the entire army being built around them.
The index is superior in just about every way. If the codex that comes out next november is anywhere near as bad as this one is, the line is going to flop FAST.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.
Oh look who's talking! The resident entitled Chaos player! How cute! Can you make a cute smile when you say this? Are you going to give us a small speech on how chaos marines deserved new models more than Sisters of Battle? I'm really looking forward to hearing it you know!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also can't believe they kept the stupid shield of faith as is. One part only work of AP-4 weapons (not on mortal wounds, not on ap-3 weapons, …) and the other one only work on WC5 spells that are cast with rolling EXACTLY a 5. And in both case, they then require a 6 to work. Ridiculous waste of ink.
Actually, this is the one part of the book that does kind of work.
There's a warlord trait or relic or w/e that gives everyone within 6" of the model 2d6 deny and it's possible to stack invul bonuses up to 4++(3++ on Seraphim and one Simulacrum unit) The deny one is good and the Invul stacking is fairly useful...it's just going to make the entire army unpleasant to play with or against.
I've literally never seen someone complain about having a 4++ for their vehicle not being enough until now.
That's some entitlement.
How many pts does that cost to make a single vehicle get a 4++ save - just the two Characters will be pushing 300pts - one of which has just suffered a major nerf as well.
If SOB vehciles had an inherent 4++ you wouild have a point - but they don't.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They actually do need some new official models, so you would be correct.
"My army has some model that are old. That means I should have precedence over those people whose whole army is super old and in metal. I'm not entitled, you are!"
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: However I'm primarily a Necrons player. You just wouldn't guess it because the army is bad enough I hardly join that Tactica thread
Whaaa whaa whaa!
Why are you so entitled ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: There's a warlord trait or relic or w/e that gives everyone within 6" of the model 2d6 deny
Doesn't make the 1d6 deny any less useful. You can keep the relic as “give everyone withing 6" the 2d6 deny" without having the useless 1d6 deny.
Acts of Faith are kind of a side bonus now, which wouldn't itself be terrible but the army-wide convictions and stratagems are treating them as a high water measurement to take into account for. If AoF remain this way I hope that at least some of the convictions change to something more consistently useful.
If players are building around AoF, Ebon Chalice wins without argument, it saves 10 points per unit (by replacing a simulacrum imperialis) and gives simulacrum imperialis to units that wouldn't be able to have one. It's almost always going to be better to have an AoF activate when you need it to rather than getting a point to spend on one later.
On the side, the fact that there's virtually no support for flame weapons in the Acts of Faith, Convctions, Warlord Traits, Relics or Stratagems makes me a bit sad. They're already a choice against Melta, which you kind of need if you aren't souping, and now you're worse off for taking them because so little of the army rules benefits their use.
I should note that I only ever play sisters casually, so I'm just going off a layman's observations. That said, I've also never met another sisters player in person, so I'm also not very familiar with facing the army.
Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free. Every unit gets one attempt per turn. Bookkeeping is annoying anyway, and now they're just another set of stratagems, except you need to roll dice to see whether they actually work or whether you just wasted your points.
Crimson wrote: Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.
I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.
Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.
Crimson wrote: Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.
I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.
Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.
Yes, that would work too. Though it basically makes them identical to stratagems, at which point you might as well combine AoFs into the Sister stratagems.
Crimson wrote: Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.
I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.
Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.
I disagree with both of you. I like the new system as it isn't to be seen as a massive gimmick, just slight potential buffs to differentiate from other armies and makes Sisters unique. Also one thing that bears mentioning is Sisters with the new system will be one of the few factions with a seperate pool of points to use, freeing up command points for other things. Late game potential advantage if your opponent burned through all theirs on turn 1-2. Strategem to convert CMD points to Faith is nice as well, shame it can't be used the other way around. Potential thing to propose to GW???
Twoshoes23 wrote: Late game potential advantage if your opponent burned through all theirs on turn 1-2. Strategem to convert CMD points to Faith is nice as well, shame it can't be used the other way around. Potential thing to propose to GW???
If you could convert them both ways then at least you might as well make AoFs into stratagems, as the two separate pools would be a mere illusion.
Turn the Acts of Faith into a select group of Stratagems with appropriate cost by how powerful they are, with no rolls to succeed.
Faith Points become bonus Command Points that can only be spent on a select group of "Acts of Faith" Stratagems.
Redo all the various Faith Point based rules into something that either interact with "Acts of Faith" Stratagems or replace with something more useful.
Crimson wrote: Yes, that would work too. Though it basically makes them identical to stratagems, at which point you might as well combine AoFs into the Sister stratagems.
The principles behind them being separate would be -
1) no cp farming for faith, instead it scales to the sororitas alone
2) allows for faith points to be more spread across the game - i.e. awarded on unit destruction - rather than all front-loaded
3) allows for various regen, booster, and combination effects and bonuses that can be separated from the other stratagems.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I don't have a problem with most of the current system, it reminds me of the old system, except...
It's been stated that it was desired that they would scale with game size; but at 1 instance per turn, it still doesn't, so there's still a choke.
They apparently did come up with whole load of BS about this beta dex.
The one consistent problem that I find most problematic about the edition in general is the rules-of-one. Strategems, Psychics, etc.
What is most annoying is that they had a decent Index force but they decided to make it more complicated, less interesting and massively less powerful, they even buffed non Sisters units rather than Sisters ones. Finally they could not be bothered to include new units that they already make models for liek Canoness Veridan and Canoness with jump pack.
Presumably too busy making rules up for other armies in the Campaign book.
Crimson wrote: Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.
I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.
Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.
But their power doesn't "fluctuate wildly". You occasionally get a small boost. Acts shouldn't be what props the army up, they should provide a slight edge. Ideally you want the army to function well without Acts at all then introduce Acts using a system that gives them a tactical advantage to counter your opponents tactical advantages.
Mr Morden wrote: What is most annoying is that they had a decent Index force but they decided to make it more complicated, less interesting and massively less powerful, they even buffed non Sisters units rather than Sisters ones. Finally they could not be bothered to include new units that they already make models for liek Canoness Veridan and Canoness with jump pack.
There is no Canoness with a Jump Pack model
There is the Gemeni Superia, who are now their own unit in the Beta Codex. They are not Canoness with a Jump Pack. Just search the GW Website and you will see that.
Mr Morden wrote: What is most annoying is that they had a decent Index force but they decided to make it more complicated, less interesting and massively less powerful, they even buffed non Sisters units rather than Sisters ones. Finally they could not be bothered to include new units that they already make models for liek Canoness Veridan and Canoness with jump pack.
There is no Canoness with a Jump Pack model
There is the Gemeni Superia, who are now their own unit in the Beta Codex. They are not Canoness with a Jump Pack. Just search the GW Website and you will see that.
except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try
Mr Morden wrote: What is most annoying is that they had a decent Index force but they decided to make it more complicated, less interesting and massively less powerful, they even buffed non Sisters units rather than Sisters ones. Finally they could not be bothered to include new units that they already make models for liek Canoness Veridan and Canoness with jump pack.
There is no Canoness with a Jump Pack model
There is the Gemeni Superia, who are now their own unit in the Beta Codex. They are not Canoness with a Jump Pack. Just search the GW Website and you will see that.
Yes they are - read the actual fething lore. They died and were brought back but that was exactly what they were!
warmaster21 wrote: except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try
were being the operative word, both died, so are no longer Canonesses.
So if you bother to think abut it:
We have a model of two Cannoness that used Jump Packs and they could not make that basic step to "Duh yeah Cannoness use jump packs - we make a model that you can use for this."
Or allowed super basic kit bashing - you know like the Grandmaster Baby carrier that absoluetly does not have a model unless you - guess what - kit bash.
Then there is Veridyan - I guess they just could not be bothered to make up a single rule for her
It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.
Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.
alextroy wrote: It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.
Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.
Half the space Marine codex doesn't exist by that logic.
Crimson wrote: Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.
I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.
Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.
I disagree with both of you. I like the new system as it isn't to be seen as a massive gimmick, just slight potential buffs to differentiate from other armies and makes Sisters unique. Also one thing that bears mentioning is Sisters with the new system will be one of the few factions with a seperate pool of points to use, freeing up command points for other things. Late game potential advantage if your opponent burned through all theirs on turn 1-2. Strategem to convert CMD points to Faith is nice as well, shame it can't be used the other way around. Potential thing to propose to GW???
There are two problems with them being 'slight potential buffs'. One: They are WAY too slight. The buffs are basically irrelevant. You could go an entire game forgetting to use them and lose NOTHING. Two: The army DIDN'T CHANGE between this system and the MUCH more powerful old system. We're still balanced around one of the best army special rules in the game! They ripped out the old act of faith system and exchanged it for what are essentially 6 of the worst stratagems anywhere, WITHOUT CHANGING THE REST OF THE ARMY! We didn't even get points drops!
Imagine if, when the necron codex came out, it was just the Index Necron force copypasted into the book but instead of their normal Reanimation Protocols they got 'Roll a D6, on a 6 you may restore one slain model to the unit. This ability can only be used by One unit per turn and can only be used once per turn.' and that's about where sisters are at.
warmaster21 wrote: except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try
were being the operative word, both died, so are no longer Canonesses.
So if you bother to think abut it:
We have a model of two Cannoness that used Jump Packs and they could not make that basic step to "Duh yeah Cannoness use jump packs - we make a model that you can use for this."
Or allowed super basic kit bashing - you know like the Grandmaster Baby carrier that absoluetly does not have a model unless you - guess what - kit bash.
Then there is Veridyan - I guess they just could not be bothered to make up a single rule for her
Yeah, there was some hardcore laziness in this book.
Crimson wrote: Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.
I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.
Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.
But their power doesn't "fluctuate wildly". You occasionally get a small boost. Acts shouldn't be what props the army up, they should provide a slight edge. Ideally you want the army to function well without Acts at all then introduce Acts using a system that gives them a tactical advantage to counter your opponents tactical advantages.
None of these things are happening. The army doesn't fluctuate AT ALL in power because the acts of faith are so bad it doesn't matter if they fail. OR if they succeed.
The army doesn't function without Act of Faiths. They tore out the old VERY powerful system and then made ZERO significant improvements to the list. It's exactly the same as the index list except far, FAR worse without the old AoF system to prob the army up.
Acts of Faith don't give a tactical advantage. The impact of even the 2 'good' acts of faith is incredibly small. 2 of the acts of faith are so situational that by the time you run into a situation where you might actually get to use one, you forgot what they do. The last two don't do anything at all.
warmaster21 wrote: except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try
were being the operative word, both died, so are no longer Canonesses.
So if you bother to think abut it:
We have a model of two Cannoness that used Jump Packs and they could not make that basic step to "Duh yeah Cannoness use jump packs - we make a model that you can use for this."
Or allowed super basic kit bashing - you know like the Grandmaster Baby carrier that absoluetly does not have a model unless you - guess what - kit bash.
Then there is Veridyan - I guess they just could not be bothered to make up a single rule for her
Stop thinking using proper logic, you need to apply GW Logic.
Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".
Not disputing that having a Canoness with a Jump Pack wouldnt be either nice nor logical, it just isnt, and so GW didnt.
alextroy wrote: It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.
Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.
Urghh - THEY ARE canoness's - again read the fething lore.
The fact the GW can;t be bothered to use them as such is just insulting.
Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".
Apparently we are getting several different Priests becase they can use the models as different thngs to count as.....
alextroy wrote: It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.
Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.
Urghh - THEY ARE canoness's - again read the fething lore.
The fact the GW can;t be bothered to use them as such is just insulting.
Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".
Apparently we are getting several different Priests becase they can use the models as different thngs to count as.....
"Canonness with jump pack" is a weird hill to die on.
alextroy wrote: It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.
Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.
Urghh - THEY ARE canoness's - again read the fething lore.
The fact the GW can;t be bothered to use them as such is just insulting.
Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".
Apparently we are getting several different Priests becase they can use the models as different thngs to count as.....
"Canonness with jump pack" is a weird hill to die on.
Is it though? It's something the rules supported once and it's something that would help make our close range army work now.
alextroy wrote: It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.
Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.
Urghh - THEY ARE canoness's - again read the fething lore.
The fact the GW can;t be bothered to use them as such is just insulting.
Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".
Apparently we are getting several different Priests becase they can use the models as different thngs to count as.....
"Canonness with jump pack" is a weird hill to die on.
Is it though? It's something the rules supported once and it's something that would help make our close range army work now.
I'd love a Canoness with Jump Pack, but from what I can tell from the Beta Codex they're clearly limiting themself to the available model lineup, without having to point people to possible conversions. As a consequence I hope they're going to add new units/models once the range gets relaunched - although I find it REALLY odd that they would not just let us proxy stuff until then. It's not like SoBs are a newbie army anyway
"Canonness with jump pack" is a weird hill to die on.
Is it though? It's something the rules supported once and it's something that would help make our close range army work now.
I'd love a Canoness with Jump Pack, but from what I can tell from the Beta Codex they're clearly limiting themself to the available model lineup, without having to point people to possible conversions. As a consequence I hope they're going to add new units/models once the range gets relaunched - although I find it REALLY odd that they would not just let us proxy stuff until then. It's not like SoBs are a newbie army anyway
GW sat on their hands for so long when it comes to SoB models that a small army of minor model companies created their own pseudo Sister of Battle lines in the hopes of selling those models to people intersted in SoB, but unwilling to pay for the old and very pricey models of GW. I don't think they would allow or even encourage people to make conversions or proxies by fear of throwing money at those other companies.
-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase
Tests made on one dice. Each act can only be attempted once per game turn. Tests use one faith point regardless of success. Faith points are limited per game.
-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase
Tests made on one dice. Each act can only be attempted once per game turn. Tests use one faith point regardless of success. Faith points are limited per game.
Some of those are pretty cool but what is up with the limitations? Once per turn seems reasonable.
Seems like the limited nature of the points - the roll for going off should just be removed. Just have them good off automatically or on a 2+ like before. +1 to hit is REALLY good to be able to have on demand for any unit you want. Auto morale pass could be powerful if not for the fact that sisters aren't really taking huge squads anyways. The mortal wound save is actually REALLY good but is also situational.
This seems pretty weak. To go from 1 on demand ability per turn that was really good like - move again - shoot again...Now it's just a bunch of micro abilities that aren't nearly as powerful. I think the idea behind the changes is decent BUT the abilities reliability is REALLY weak. It's needs to be more reliable if the powers are going to be this weak. Then maybe a stratagem that gives you an automatic activation of any one of these acts for 2 CP...or something like that.
I mean, they're not terrible.
Spirit of the Martyr isn't particularly awesome. It's only better than Divine Guidance if you're down to 1 or 2 models.
Aegis of the Emperor is cool. I think it's the only counter to smite-spam armies, which is really neat. It's super situational, though, and will not get used like 90% of the time.
Light of the Emperor... morale? We don't have morale problems, but I guess it might be valuable if we start running giant blocks of infantry.
Divine Guidance is neat. It's a strong effect, but if you're not spreading it you're not really getting a whole lot of value back. This will be your go-to act, though.
Hand of the Emperor isn't particularly good, but sometimes that 3" will just make the difference, so it's at least situational.
The Passion is a hard pass. Celestine, and maybe a Canoness, are really our only useful CQC units.
The key, I think is the 3CP strategem that lets you target a character and spread the Act to everybody around them. With Ebon Chalice; you blob up around a Dialogus, and get re-rollable 3+ +1 to hit for probably around half your army. It'll take a lot of CP's, though, but if Ministorium won't break our detachments any more, we at least won't have the choke of only being allowed 4 HQ's. I think an Ebon Chalice brigade just walking up the board sounds pretty good. Our slot-fillers for the FA/HS/Elite slots are pretty cheap, so we can get in quite a bit of CP in our own big detachment, and then bring a battalion or brigade of Guardsmen for more CP. There still won't be much left for other stratagems. You will have lots of faith points, lots of CP, and lots of bodies, which is a recipe for being good. Deficiency in general antitank is a shortcoming, but can be remedied by taking in the discounted Tank Commanders into the IGCP block.
Otherwise, you just tag a meltagun squad with Divine Guidance and hope you get a neat buff, but don't really focus on faith, since odds are you won't get the one you want when you want it.
The big nerf to Hand of the Emperor makes me sad. It was the best one, and really contributed to our general good-ness and aggressive character; I feel.
-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase
Tests made on one dice. Each act can only be attempted once per game turn. Tests use one faith point regardless of success. Faith points are limited per game.
Some of those are pretty cool but what is up with the limitations? Once per turn seems reasonable.
Seems like the limited nature of the points - the roll for going off should just be removed. Just have them good off automatically or on a 2+ like before. +1 to hit is REALLY good to be able to have on demand for any unit you want. Auto morale pass could be powerful if not for the fact that sisters aren't really taking huge squads anyways. The mortal wound save is actually REALLY good but is also situational.
This seems pretty weak. To go from 1 on demand ability per turn that was really good like - move again - shoot again...Now it's just a bunch of micro abilities that aren't nearly as powerful. I think the idea behind the changes is decent BUT the abilities reliability is REALLY weak. It's needs to be more reliable if the powers are going to be this weak. Then maybe a stratagem that gives you an automatic activation of any one of these acts for 2 CP...or something like that.
The other problem with them is they only work on Infantry units, IIRC. So it's not even +1 to-hit on any unit you want, like the IG stratagem.
There are several problems that I think I wrote in a different forum but can't remember.
Currently the Faith System runs on 3 features. Faith Points, the Faith Roll, and the limit of 1 of each per turn.
If you remove Faith Points, then you will use every faith ability every turn, from turn 1 to turn 7. There would be no reason not to. You would always want to give your army as many chances to be better as possible. It'll be an annoying headache to keep track of which units have which bonuses, but you'll do it because that's what gives you an edge.
If you remove the Faith Roll then the Acts of Faith lose their flavor. They become a thing that you will always do and always get off and they will become perfectly predictable. This could be a good thing for some, but in the end, they become a stratagem that cost a different resource, which is boring and redundant.
If you remove the limit of 1 per turn, then your entire army will undergo acts of faith in turn 1 and 2 for the alpha strike potential and then you won't have any faith points for the rest of the game, making the ability bland.
So I can see why GW included each of the restrictions. The trouble is that in their current incarnation they're just... meh.
Half of the Acts have a 1/3rd chance to fail and the rest have a 1/2 chance or worse to fail, and they still cost the faith points. Honestly, Faith Points aren't even that big of an issue. With some of the Orders, you can get quite a lot of Faith Points and end up actually having LOTS leftover by the end of the game. Plus, they're another resource you have to track, which slows the game down.
Going back a step, anyway, spending a limited resource on a *chance* to get something just doesn't feel good. You have Canticles, Orders, and other things that other factions get that don't have a chance to fail (or at least not as bad of a chance) and that also affect THE ENTIRE ARMY, or at least multiple units instead of just 1. Having only 1 unit benefit from an act of faith is not what I'd call 'scaling up with the army'.
Many of the acts of faith are also underwhelming. Spirit of the Martyr is similar to what Apothecaries or Techpriests get. Hand of the Emperor is a far cry from a double-move for many units and it having a 1/2 chance to fail means you can't properly strategize your movement phase. Passing a morale test automatically is next to pointless in this edition. Probably the best acts of faith are getting +1 to hit half of the time or getting a 1/3rd chance to get a 1/2 chance to save against a mortal wound from smite. The best is fighting twice with a unit, particularly Repentia (actually... only Repentia, any other unit this at of faith is worthless on). But it's got a 2/3rd chance to fail base, which is abysmal and could lose you the game if it doesn't go off after a critical charge. Your opponent can also counter it by interrupting in between fights and neutering the unit that you used it on, making it even worse.
Honestly, with many of the acts of faith, I feel that you could run the entire army without using them and the outcome would still be much the same, such is the combination of their weakness, their abyssmal chances, and the limitation of using only one of each and having limited faith points.
The system just does not inspire fun gameplay in my opinion.
The system just does not inspire fun gameplay in my opinion.
That what it seems like to me, too. It almost feels like you'd just ignore the whole system largely just to save time on the book keeping. But we'll see how it plays on the actual table.
Now that I've seen the "beta codex" explanation text it seems like this isn't really a beta codex to test stuff out, but more of a "here's some stuff we cobbled together to shorten the wait till the actual codex comes out"
The system just does not inspire fun gameplay in my opinion.
That what it seems like to me, too. It almost feels like you'd just ignore the whole system largely just to save time on the book keeping. But we'll see how it plays on the actual table.
Now that I've seen the "beta codex" explanation text it seems like this isn't really a beta codex to test stuff out, but more of a "here's some stuff we cobbled together to shorten the wait till the actual codex comes out"
I can understand that feeling, but when the CA comes out, we REALLY need to give GW our feedback. This is the time to let them know they need to change stuff, or else we'll be stuck with this same system when the full codex comes out and then we'll be stuck with THAT for another 20+ years.
I'd leave their effect level where they are, but allow them to be used multiple times per turn. I'm not particularly concerned about frontloading the effects.
IIRC, the old-old system worked where you got faith back on the destruction of faithful units; and the test was naturally difficult but modified by unit casualties. That wouldn't be bad, gaining points from the death of units [which is currently a trait] isn't a bad feature in general, because it spreads out point generation and helps turn the tide if your losing. Making the test easier with fallen models weakens the powers, since they wind up granting less effect.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I'd leave their effect level where they are, but allow them to be used multiple times per turn. I'm not particularly concerned about frontloading the effects.
IIRC, the old-old system worked where you got faith back on the destruction of faithful units; and the test was naturally difficult but modified by unit casualties. That wouldn't be bad, gaining points from the death of units [which is currently a trait] isn't a bad feature in general, because it spreads out point generation and helps turn the tide if your losing. Making the test easier with fallen models weakens the powers, since they wind up granting less effect.
This is also a solid solution.
The system is super weird, tbh. Like someone(maybe dbored himself?) on B&C said, it feels like they built the entire faith point system around the OLD acts of faith and then someone was like "Vessels of the Emperor?' And then everyone cheered before going"...maybe that's a bit too much...I know! We'll just make the Acts of Faith really weak!" And then they all left for lunch patting each other on the back...not realizing that they had left the entire system built around much stronger abilities.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: There are several problems that I think I wrote in a different forum but can't remember.
Currently the Faith System runs on 3 features. Faith Points, the Faith Roll, and the limit of 1 of each per turn.
If you remove Faith Points, then you will use every faith ability every turn, from turn 1 to turn 7. There would be no reason not to. You would always want to give your army as many chances to be better as possible. It'll be an annoying headache to keep track of which units have which bonuses, but you'll do it because that's what gives you an edge.
If you remove the Faith Roll then the Acts of Faith lose their flavor. They become a thing that you will always do and always get off and they will become perfectly predictable. This could be a good thing for some, but in the end, they become a stratagem that cost a different resource, which is boring and redundant.
If you remove the limit of 1 per turn, then your entire army will undergo acts of faith in turn 1 and 2 for the alpha strike potential and then you won't have any faith points for the rest of the game, making the ability bland.
So I can see why GW included each of the restrictions. The trouble is that in their current incarnation they're just... meh.
Half of the Acts have a 1/3rd chance to fail and the rest have a 1/2 chance or worse to fail, and they still cost the faith points. Honestly, Faith Points aren't even that big of an issue. With some of the Orders, you can get quite a lot of Faith Points and end up actually having LOTS leftover by the end of the game. Plus, they're another resource you have to track, which slows the game down.
Going back a step, anyway, spending a limited resource on a *chance* to get something just doesn't feel good. You have Canticles, Orders, and other things that other factions get that don't have a chance to fail (or at least not as bad of a chance) and that also affect THE ENTIRE ARMY, or at least multiple units instead of just 1. Having only 1 unit benefit from an act of faith is not what I'd call 'scaling up with the army'.
Many of the acts of faith are also underwhelming. Spirit of the Martyr is similar to what Apothecaries or Techpriests get. Hand of the Emperor is a far cry from a double-move for many units and it having a 1/2 chance to fail means you can't properly strategize your movement phase. Passing a morale test automatically is next to pointless in this edition. Probably the best acts of faith are getting +1 to hit half of the time or getting a 1/3rd chance to get a 1/2 chance to save against a mortal wound from smite. The best is fighting twice with a unit, particularly Repentia (actually... only Repentia, any other unit this at of faith is worthless on). But it's got a 2/3rd chance to fail base, which is abysmal and could lose you the game if it doesn't go off after a critical charge. Your opponent can also counter it by interrupting in between fights and neutering the unit that you used it on, making it even worse.
Honestly, with many of the acts of faith, I feel that you could run the entire army without using them and the outcome would still be much the same, such is the combination of their weakness, their abyssmal chances, and the limitation of using only one of each and having limited faith points.
The system just does not inspire fun gameplay in my opinion.
(
When you lay out those restrictions it becomes VERY clear that the system was not built around the Acts of Faith that actually shipped. If the acts were very powerful abilities, let's say... +1 to hit and +1 to wound or +6" of movement, or fighting twice but NOT on a 5+ for no real reason, then the system would make sense. As it stands now...You're spending 3CP per turn to (assuming a Canoness) get an 8% better version of the same Aura ability that space marines can buy for 3CP FOR THE WHOLE GAME.
Yeah, Vessels of the emperor, in an absolute best case usage scenario, is worse than just being a Chapter master. Which is a stratagem I don't think anyone has ever used outside of beer and pretzels time.
-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase
Tests made on one dice. Each act can only be attempted once per game turn. Tests use one faith point regardless of success. Faith points are limited per game.
Some of those are pretty cool but what is up with the limitations? Once per turn seems reasonable.
Seems like the limited nature of the points - the roll for going off should just be removed. Just have them good off automatically or on a 2+ like before. +1 to hit is REALLY good to be able to have on demand for any unit you want. Auto morale pass could be powerful if not for the fact that sisters aren't really taking huge squads anyways. The mortal wound save is actually REALLY good but is also situational.
This seems pretty weak. To go from 1 on demand ability per turn that was really good like - move again - shoot again...Now it's just a bunch of micro abilities that aren't nearly as powerful. I think the idea behind the changes is decent BUT the abilities reliability is REALLY weak. It's needs to be more reliable if the powers are going to be this weak. Then maybe a stratagem that gives you an automatic activation of any one of these acts for 2 CP...or something like that.
The other problem with them is they only work on Infantry units, IIRC. So it's not even +1 to-hit on any unit you want, like the IG stratagem.
If you spend 3CP on Vessels, the 6" range act will spread to vehicles.
HOWEVER, the acts are so weak I don't understand why you couldn't just use them on the vehicles anyway. They don't even need to help generate faith points, just let them 'benefit'(for lack of a more accurate word) from Faith Points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I mean, they're not terrible.
Spirit of the Martyr isn't particularly awesome. It's only better than Divine Guidance if you're down to 1 or 2 models.
Aegis of the Emperor is cool. I think it's the only counter to smite-spam armies, which is really neat. It's super situational, though, and will not get used like 90% of the time.
Light of the Emperor... morale? We don't have morale problems, but I guess it might be valuable if we start running giant blocks of infantry.
Divine Guidance is neat. It's a strong effect, but if you're not spreading it you're not really getting a whole lot of value back. This will be your go-to act, though.
Hand of the Emperor isn't particularly good, but sometimes that 3" will just make the difference, so it's at least situational.
The Passion is a hard pass. Celestine, and maybe a Canoness, are really our only useful CQC units.
The key, I think is the 3CP strategem that lets you target a character and spread the Act to everybody around them. With Ebon Chalice; you blob up around a Dialogus, and get re-rollable 3+ +1 to hit for probably around half your army. It'll take a lot of CP's, though, but if Ministorium won't break our detachments any more, we at least won't have the choke of only being allowed 4 HQ's. I think an Ebon Chalice brigade just walking up the board sounds pretty good. Our slot-fillers for the FA/HS/Elite slots are pretty cheap, so we can get in quite a bit of CP in our own big detachment, and then bring a battalion or brigade of Guardsmen for more CP. There still won't be much left for other stratagems. You will have lots of faith points, lots of CP, and lots of bodies, which is a recipe for being good. Deficiency in general antitank is a shortcoming, but can be remedied by taking in the discounted Tank Commanders into the IGCP block.
Otherwise, you just tag a meltagun squad with Divine Guidance and hope you get a neat buff, but don't really focus on faith, since odds are you won't get the one you want when you want it.
The big nerf to Hand of the Emperor makes me sad. It was the best one, and really contributed to our general good-ness and aggressive character; I feel.
I mentioned this in reply to one of your other comments but I really want to drive this point home.
Vessels of the Emperor's Will costs 3CP(6" range), is an 8% boost over a standard Chapter Master reroll assuming you have a Canoness and no -1s to hit. (It's 3% worse at -1), and can only be used once per turn.
Space Marine's 'Chapter Masters' stratagem (6" range) Costs 3CP and is only 8% worse(or several percent better against Eldar Flyers) than a BEST CASE usage of Vessels of the Emperor's Will. That stratagem lasts the entire game. And literally no one anywhere uses it.
Even accounting for the fact that Vessels can target different characters AND the fact that it can spread other bonuses(paltry as they are. The Passion is almost impossible to use with this for about 2 pages worth of reasons I won't get into right now) it is STILL weaker than a 3CP stratagem, in an army better suited to take advantage of that stratagem, that no one ever bothers to use.
Oh YEAH, I actually totally forgot, Vessels is only active for one PHASE. The chapter master reroll buff is active 100% of the time in both turns! Man AoFs suck.
drbored wrote: If you remove the Faith Roll then the Acts of Faith lose their flavor. They become a thing that you will always do and always get off and they will become perfectly predictable. This could be a good thing for some, but in the end, they become a stratagem that cost a different resource, which is boring and redundant.
I disagree - if there is one thing that the last few editions of 40k should have drilled into players is that adding lots of random rolls != fun.
Because it becomes less about conserving your resources and setting up optimal situations for there use and instead becomes a coin-flip that you are best off using as early as possible because there are no guarantees it'll work. Giving up the faction trait and a bunch of points for bonuses to the random roll inevitably results in lists becoming more generic.
Mr Morden wrote: Then there is Veridyan - I guess they just could not be bothered to make up a single rule for her
To be fair, it's not like this is new incidence. DW used to have special Chaplain, Librarian, and Dread in 7th, plus two sergeants, all are just generic models now, ditto with Overkill guys...
Thanks, I'll update that above to save confusion!
and gave a few paltry toys in exchange.
?
box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for 