Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, that strategem doesn't have any good targets.

We can laugh at the potential damage, but there's nothing to shoot at to maximize that. It's basically good for ripping up Guardsmen, because despite the bonus damage, Storm Bolters still don't work on Knights.

Oddly, it's most useful against a mirror match. Space Marines are too infantry-light to make it worthwhile; Orks don't have saves or wounds to make it worthwhile, and it doesn't actually work on big tanks. It will work on DEldar tanks.

This is just bad info.

2 damage is a magic number that essentially nullifies feel no pain. You absolutely would use this when shooting at Catalyst Genestealers or FNP Orks.

These are fantastic against multi-wound models like Grotesques as well.

And we have already demonstrated that these are blisteringly efficient against Primaris and Terminators.

Tyel wrote:

dhallnet wrote:
20 shots max at 12" per shooting phase requiring 1CP, hitting on 3, wounding at least on 4 (against target worth the AP-2 Damage 2).
Not sure imperial soup is going to change stuff around to allow picking that.

Edit : It's a good strat, it's not earth shattering.

I don't think it will be that devastating at a competitive level - although with as yet unknown combinations of warlord traits, relics, other stratagems, acts of faith and order benefits it certainly could be. (Indeed I'd be amazed if Sisters are released entire "as is" rather than with new units, so this whole "dominions only have 5 stormbolters nah nah nah" may prove a red herring.

What it definitely does do however is put another nail through Primaris. Just the -2 AP would seem a potentially useful buff, why made it do 2 damage as well?

I would be surprised if we get even one new unit. They aren't going to release minis before the codex so any new unit would be based on current metal sob range and nobody is going to buy any.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, that strategem doesn't have any good targets.

We can laugh at the potential damage, but there's nothing to shoot at to maximize that. It's basically good for ripping up Guardsmen, because despite the bonus damage, Storm Bolters still don't work on Knights.

Oddly, it's most useful against a mirror match. Space Marines are too infantry-light to make it worthwhile; Orks don't have saves or wounds to make it worthwhile, and it doesn't actually work on big tanks. It will work on DEldar tanks.

This is just bad info.

2 damage is a magic number that essentially nullifies feel no pain. You absolutely would use this when shooting at Catalyst Genestealers or FNP Orks.

These are fantastic against multi-wound models like Grotesques as well.

And we have already demonstrated that these are blisteringly efficient against Primaris and Terminators.

Who gives a f*** if it's effective against terminators? Terminators are total crap anyway.

It's a comment about how useful it is outside of theory. Obviously, there's an optimal target, but I don't think I've see that optimal target like, forever. It doesn't kill Knights; and its unnecessary to kill Orks. In short, it's good for killing guardsmen, and for killing us. If giant blob of Ebon Chalice infantry becomes really good; then we'll be really good and our strategem will be highly sought after for dealing with is. Otherwise, it's kind of niche.

It's strong, obviously; but it has occurred to me that it's not an every-turn-spend-CP-on thing. It's probably relatively less strong than Overlapping Fields of Fire; which I do use every turn, but more strong than Forward Observer, which I don't. It's definitely weaker than the Vostroyan 1CP +1 to hit one.

At the same time, while it's obviously better than Psybolts, why should we set the standard for effectiveness at an ability that's known to be total garbage.


It's a "kill that thing now" stratagem. In the scale of "kill that thing now" strategems; it's in the high end of the batch; I think. It's actually buff is strong, but it doesn't delete tanks and it doesn't buff heavy weapon carriers.

dhallnet wrote:
I would be surprised if we get even one new unit. They aren't going to release minis before the codex so any new unit would be based on current metal sob range and nobody is going to buy any.

Sorry - yeah. I don't know what it is about Dakka, but for some reason I always post before finishing my thoughts and end up getting tenses mixed up.

I don't expect there will be new stuff in the beta rules.
When Sisters get a full release - late 2019 or whenever - I expect they will get new stuff.
And sure, by then stratagems like this could be changed, so I guess in someways its irrelevant, but not totally.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.

Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.

Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.

I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.

Is it underwhelming for the points though?

Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.

So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.

Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, that strategem doesn't have any good targets.

We can laugh at the potential damage, but there's nothing to shoot at to maximize that. It's basically good for ripping up Guardsmen, because despite the bonus damage, Storm Bolters still don't work on Knights.

Oddly, it's most useful against a mirror match. Space Marines are too infantry-light to make it worthwhile; Orks don't have saves or wounds to make it worthwhile, and it doesn't actually work on big tanks. It will work on DEldar tanks.

This is just bad info.

2 damage is a magic number that essentially nullifies feel no pain. You absolutely would use this when shooting at Catalyst Genestealers or FNP Orks.

These are fantastic against multi-wound models like Grotesques as well.

And we have already demonstrated that these are blisteringly efficient against Primaris and Terminators.

Who gives a f*** if it's effective against terminators? Terminators are total crap anyway/

It's a comment about how useful it is outside of theory. Obviously, there's an optimal target, but I don't think I've see that optimal target like, forever. It doesn't kill Knights; and its unnecessary to kill Orks. In short, it's good for killing guardsmen, and for killing us. If giant blob of Ebon Chalice infantry becomes really good; then we'll be really good and our strategem will be highly sought after for dealing with is. Otherwise, it's kind of niche.

It's strong, obviously; but it has occurred to me that it's not an every-turn-spend-CP-on thing. It's probably relatively less strong than Overlapping Fields of Fire; which I do use every turn, but more strong than Forward Observer, which I don't.

No.

It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.

It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.

I hope, but I don't think so.

They would have trotted it out if it was; because the Exorcist is a favorite model that a lot of us are upset about it's general badness. It's an obvious target for hype building.

And the squad is only 60 points! And Sisters have the best Transport outside Dark Eldar in the form of the Repressor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.

I hope, but I don't think so.

They would have trotted it out if it was; because the Exorcist is a favorite model that a lot of us are upset about it's general badness.

The whole line is getting new models and nothing was previewed basically. It'll be featured in another article just like what happens with every other faction: articles pop up and they feature a new unit.

Hell I would've put money that Engines were gonna be the previewed unit before even opening the link. My second guess would've been Seripham to really hone in the fact they have that one Strategem.

The line is getting models in 10 months. This isn't a codex release, you guys should chill.

I currently play with lots of BSS MSU with Stormbolters, they are 51 points. They can lob some decent support fire down the field to support the forward units while moving up to secure midfield objectives. They also throw 16 shots at something that strays too close. 153 for 3 squads, plus another 90 or so for the two Canoness... gives you a BN for about 240 points. You lose Move, Move, Move! and FRFSRF, but gain a better gun and better save, and better HQs (Canoness with the relic blade is no joke when she dives into a unit swinging).

With Faith Pool scaling on models with the rule in the army, I think Repressors are going to stay like 1-3/army, depending on the army and player. Going full mech with Repressors is going to put a serious dent in the Faith Pool.

Back to Blessed Bolts. With the "Rule of 3" floating around, every squad of Dominions with Stormbolters is 1 less Dominion with Melta squad lurking around. Now, I know for my army that those Dominions do A LOT of lifting. Losing them for Stormbolters to use Blessed Bolts feels like I am totally losing on the trade. If I want to punish chaff, I play Immolators, Heavy Bolter Rets, MSU BSS with Stormbolters, etc. After the beta dex, I MAY play a squad of bolt pistol Seraphim for Burning Descent, but I've yet to get a solid run of them to see if the double-tapping pistols amounts for anything outside of "meh".

Honestly, Blessed Bolts is an AMAZING stratagem... and unless something crazy like Celestians get Stormbolters + Power Weapon (choices like Chaos Chosen), the stratagem won't be "steamroll opponent" type level. If you're getting a medium vehicle flattened with Blessed Bolts from Dominions... just be relieved that your army doesn't have to deal with those same Dominions armed with Melta, obliterating you from a high toughness transport rocking Heavy Flamers. Pretty sure you're still winning regardless of how strong Blessed Bolts is.

 Marmatag wrote:


No.

It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.

It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).

Who cares if it crushes W2 infantry? They're crap already.

Also, while you're excellenting picking out random things it's good compared too....

The real relevant units that are going to be out there to be targeted are going to be:
T3 [Guardsmen, Sisters], T4 [Orks, Marines], T6 [Ravagers], and T8 [Knights]

Which, as a back of the envelope estimation using of mean wounds:
Blessed Ammunition vs. Storm Bolter vs. Overloaded Plasmaguns
T3, 5+ [Guardsmen]: | 1.8 | 1.2 | [Not Relevant]
T4, 6+, 5+++ [Orks]: | 1.2 | 0.9 | [Not Relevant]
T3, 3+ [Sisters]: | 1.2 | 0.6 | 0.9
T6, 3+/5++ [Ravager]| 1.2 | 0.3 | 1.2
T8, 3+/5++ [Knights]: | 0.6 | N/A | 0.9


It's notably a major boost against some common units, but as noted, isn't really a super beneficial buff versus Orks and Knights. Ergo; it's relative awesome ubiquity will be somewhat dependent upon when AoF using footslogging sisters become a serious meta contributor [which, to be fair, seems possible].


Of other mention; the strategem's other relative weakness is that it doesn't extract a lot of value. Firstborn Pride can target a much more valuable unit of much greater power, like a tank or baneblade, to extract more value. Overlapping Fields of Fire essentially targets your whole army to really guarantee that what you want dies, though OFoF is 2CP. Anyway, I think it's good and very nice; but I don't think it's game breaking; unless your dream is an army of terminators, in which case it's been broken for the whole edition and I feel no pity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I currently play with lots of BSS MSU with Stormbolters, they are 51 points. They can lob some decent support fire down the field to support the forward units while moving up to secure midfield objectives. They also throw 16 shots at something that strays too close. 153 for 3 squads, plus another 90 or so for the two Canoness... gives you a BN for about 240 points. You lose Move, Move, Move! and FRFSRF, but gain a better gun and better save, and better HQs (Canoness with the relic blade is no joke when she dives into a unit swinging).

With Faith Pool scaling on models with the rule in the army, I think Repressors are going to stay like 1-3/army, depending on the army and player. Going full mech with Repressors is going to put a serious dent in the Faith Pool.

Back to Blessed Bolts. With the "Rule of 3" floating around, every squad of Dominions with Stormbolters is 1 less Dominion with Melta squad lurking around. Now, I know for my army that those Dominions do A LOT of lifting. Losing them for Stormbolters to use Blessed Bolts feels like I am totally losing on the trade. If I want to punish chaff, I play Immolators, Heavy Bolter Rets, MSU BSS with Stormbolters, etc. After the beta dex, I MAY play a squad of bolt pistol Seraphim for Burning Descent, but I've yet to get a solid run of them to see if the double-tapping pistols amounts for anything outside of "meh".

Honestly, Blessed Bolts is an AMAZING stratagem... and unless something crazy like Celestians get Stormbolters + Power Weapon (choices like Chaos Chosen), the stratagem won't be "steamroll opponent" type level. If you're getting a medium vehicle flattened with Blessed Bolts from Dominions... just be relieved that your army doesn't have to deal with those same Dominions armed with Melta, obliterating you from a high toughness transport rocking Heavy Flamers. Pretty sure you're still winning regardless of how strong Blessed Bolts is.

I don't think Canonesses are better than CC's. 15 points more per unit, and the CC is basically pure buff with no addition purchase like actually having fighty-bits.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Who cares if it crushes W2 infantry?

Considering that the Primaris are the new standard for the most popular faction in the game, probably quite a lot of people.

Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

 Crimson wrote:
Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.

Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.

 Crimson wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.

Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.

Better effect, even, since plasma is "always-on" vs. this stratagem which is one-use per turn and can only be used while an expendable resource, CP, is available.

Imagine if you had to use a stratagem to overcharge plasma guns (but it didn't overheat)?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.

Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.

Better effect, even, since plasma is "always-on" vs. this stratagem which is one-use per turn and can only be used while an expendable resource, CP, is available.

Imagine if you had to use a stratagem to overcharge plasma guns (but it didn't overheat)?

Imagine if you remembered the price of Plasma Guns (13 points) compared to Storm Bolters (2 points).

Would it be possible for Blessed Bolts to be more balanced with a price hike for Doms/BSS? They seem to really be on a sweet spot regarding price/durability/firepower.

I think the problem with the strat is the 2 damage part. Taking that away, 1 CP to add AP-2 to a whole squad...aint bad. but that 2 damage part is just brutal.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.

Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.

Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.

I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.

Is it underwhelming for the points though?

Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.

So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.

In a direct comparison like that, sure. However, the army doesn't otherwise have access to Razorbacks, squad carried plasma guns, heavy support units sporting quad lascannons, no super fast infantry units or deep strike, etc.

A T3 unit of sisters getting a strong bonus stratagem to otherwise lackluster weapons options, that have to be within 12" for optimal effect and can only be used once a turn in matched play, isnt going to terrify me just yet. Any opponent facing such a threat will quickly identify it, and it doesn't take much to mitigate or neutralize the one or two units in any army that will be able to really make good use of this stratagem.

If thats the most powerful thing this army will bring to the table, I don't think we'll see SoB breaking the meta much. Basically you're paying 1 CP to change the Storm Bolter into a Plasma Gun for a turn in terms of damage output against most targets. Powerful in certain circumstances, but within the greater context of the codex of the army and meta, probably not particularly astounding.

Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible, but within the context of sisters as we know them, what we have seen thus far, and the rest of the 8E meta, I'm not worried about it breaking the game.

Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.

Exorcists are literally the one thing in the entire army beyond Heavy Bolters able to reach out past 24", and the only one with big hard hitting ranged attacks aside from infantry carried meltaguns, and we don't know exactly how they'll end up. More to the point, they can't be expected to do everything all the time in every list.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.

Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.

Better effect, even, since plasma is "always-on" vs. this stratagem which is one-use per turn and can only be used while an expendable resource, CP, is available.

Imagine if you had to use a stratagem to overcharge plasma guns (but it didn't overheat)?

Imagine if you remembered the price of Plasma Guns (13 points) compared to Storm Bolters (2 points).

What's your point? That plasma shouldn't be 13 points or that Storm Bolters shouldn't be 2?

Does access to a stratagem that makes ≤5 Storm Bolters once per Battle Round pretend like they're really bad overcharged plasma guns somehow mean the Storm Bolter should be more than 2 points now?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It's an interesting one for the sisters are they lack any other form of 2 wound damage outside of eviscerators and the exorcist - without any other changes this is bridging the gap for them between inefficient bolter/flamer fire and overkill melta, albeit for only one unit.

Yep. Many other armies can kit their their units with plasma for pretty much the same effect.

Better effect, even, since plasma is "always-on" vs. this stratagem which is one-use per turn and can only be used while an expendable resource, CP, is available.

Imagine if you had to use a stratagem to overcharge plasma guns (but it didn't overheat)?

Imagine if you remembered the price of Plasma Guns (13 points) compared to Storm Bolters (2 points).

What's your point? That plasma shouldn't be 13 points or that Storm Bolters shouldn't be 2?

Does access to a stratagem that makes ≤5 Storm Bolters once per Battle Round pretend like they're really bad overcharged plasma guns somehow mean the Storm Bolter should be more than 2 points now?

Can you name any unit in the game with comparable damage output for 1CP and 60 points? I'm all ears.

It also means the Strategem should be 2CP, not 1.

Storm Bolter should have been more than 2 points in the first place, at least compared to Flamers. -_- Or perhaps more accurately, flamers should be less.

Anyway, the unit should not pay the cost for it's strategem [otherwise the unit will be gak since only one instance gets it's cost-value], so it's "how much more firepower can you get for a CP."

The answer, in weapon class, is Vostroyan Marcharius Vulcan or Stormlord. The answer, in general, is Machine Spirit Resurgent or using Firstborn Pride on a Shadowsword/Baneblade

As far as base firepower for 60 points: IG rifles+PC.


The strategem gives a lot of value increase to the cheap unit; but it's a cheap and kind of weak [absolute strength, not points-relative strength] unit in the first place. It's a big buff to a small unit; which isn't quite as valuable as medium buff to a larger unit [Firstborn Pride] or a large buff to a large unit [Machine Spirit Resurgent]

It feels a lot like psy powers but you pay to try to me. I like the model though.

Not through every post but everyone is assuming all Acts of Faith are all done on a 5+ why?

 Crimson wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Who cares if it crushes W2 infantry?

Considering that the Primaris are the new standard for the most popular faction in the game, probably quite a lot of people.

Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Who cares if it crushes W2 infantry?

Considering that the Primaris are the new standard for the most popular faction in the game, probably quite a lot of people.

Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.

Triple basically nil is still pretty much nil.

There's a very narrow bracket of things that have a good enough armor save, low enough toughness, and more than one wound. And that very narrow bracket coincides largely with "things that are already terrible anyway," so like; no change there.

Sim-Life wrote:Not through every post but everyone is assuming all Acts of Faith are all done on a 5+ why?

Because if the melee one to fight twice is 5+; the other one that matters, shooting twice, is probably also 5+.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.

Yes. But the starting point wasn't stellar. IG and Scion command squads kitted with plasma are more effective against the target type you mention without using any CP.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.

Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.

Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.

I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.

Is it underwhelming for the points though?

Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.

So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.

In a direct comparison like that, sure. However, the army doesn't otherwise have access to Razorbacks, squad carried plasma guns, heavy support units sporting quad lascannons, no super fast infantry units or deep strike, etc.

A T3 unit of sisters getting a strong bonus stratagem to otherwise lackluster weapons options, that have to be within 12" for optimal effect and can only be used once a turn in matched play, isnt going to terrify me just yet. Any opponent facing such a threat will quickly identify it, and it doesn't take much to mitigate or neutralize the one or two units in any army that will be able to really make good use of this stratagem.

If thats the most powerful thing this army will bring to the table, I don't think we'll see SoB breaking the meta much. Basically you're paying 1 CP to change the Storm Bolter into a Plasma Gun for a turn in terms of damage output against most targets. Powerful in certain circumstances, but within the greater context of the codex of the army and meta, probably not particularly astounding.

Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible, but within the context of sisters as we know them, what we have seen thus far, and the rest of the 8E meta, I'm not worried about it breaking the game.

Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.

Exorcists are literally the one thing in the entire army beyond Heavy Bolters able to reach out past 24", and the only one with big hard hitting ranged attacks aside from infantry carried meltaguns, and we don't know exactly how they'll end up. More to the point, they can't be expected to do everything all the time in every list.

1. Storm Bolters aren't lackluster. Arguably they're the only good Bolt weapon people try and take.
2. The availability of Razorbacks is moot because you're only talking about the Assault Cannon variant. Otherwise, you don't take the other options (which the Immolator has three of, anyway). That's dishonest of you. Honestly, you should even be ashamed you tried to make that a point.
3. Okay, they don't have Plasma Guns. It isn't like Marines get a cheap saturation of them; just because the option exists doesn't mean the option pops up a lot. That's why when people talk about nerfing Plasma Guns, all the complaints are related to the Scion platforms.
4. What has a Quad Lascannon? The 500 point Spartan? Lol k
5. Uh the unit of discussion is fast? Seripham are fast? We also don't know if they're gonna get a Deep Strike Strategem like everyone and their mother has at this point? Being able to rush Repressors up the field like a Rhino but not lose the firepower of the embarked squad makes even basic squads fast to engage?
The army is plenty fast.
6. T3 isn't a disadvantage because of damage output for the price. Units pay a lot for the additional Toughness because GW doesn't price durability correctly.
I can either have a Marine with T4 and a Bolter, or a Dominion with T3 and a Storm Bolter. Seeing as dead units don't fight back, the latter is a superior choice.
7. This is only a preview. We actually don't know what else the army is bringing, sure.
I want you to think about the escalation with the last few codices though and get back to me on what we can reasonably expect though.
8. They're still cheap at 140 points to supplement anything moving forward. They don't need to do ALL the work. This isn't a camping army like Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.

Yes. But the starting point wasn't stellar. IG and Scion command squads kitted with plasma are more effective against the target type you mention without using any CP.

...and everyone considers Scion Plasma to be an issue still, even with the silly one-command-squad-per-HQ-dude restriction. What's the point you're making?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Who cares if it crushes W2 infantry?

Considering that the Primaris are the new standard for the most popular faction in the game, probably quite a lot of people.

Though I still feel that the panic about this stratagem is a bit overblown, it is hella good, that's for sure, but it still affects only one unit.

It will tripple the damage at a minimum of that one unit against multiple wound models with armor saves.

Triple basically nil is still pretty much nil.

There's a very narrow bracket of things that have a good enough armor save, low enough toughness, and more than one wound. And that very narrow bracket coincides largely with "things that are already terrible anyway," so like; no change there.

Sim-Life wrote:Not through every post but everyone is assuming all Acts of Faith are all done on a 5+ why?

Because if the melee one to fight twice is 5+; the other one that matters, shooting twice, is probably also 5+.

GW priced all the "fight again at the end of the phase" strategems at 3CP and the shooting twice ones at 2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...and everyone considers Scion Plasma to be an issue still, even with the silly one-command-squad-per-HQ-dude restriction. What's the point you're making?

If they had to pay a CP in order to overcharge, and you could only have one such unit, I really doubt anyone would consider them a problem!

 Marmatag wrote:

It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.

It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).

Just so you don't feel like the only sane man screaming into the wind, yes, this strategy is ridiculous.

It's existence alone elevates SoB to overpowered threats.

However, you're not going to make any headway into this echo chamber of misery. The SoB blockade, especially on Dakka, cannot stand to hear that they are anything more than the single crappiest faction in any game system ever.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...and everyone considers Scion Plasma to be an issue still, even with the silly one-command-squad-per-HQ-dude restriction. What's the point you're making?

If they had to pay a CP in order to overcharge, and you could only have one such unit, I really doubt anyone would consider them a problem!

Let's say theoretically you had to do that for Plasma Guns, which are already a 13 point weapon. Yeah I would be annoyed because that's already a lot of investment.

You're instead paying for 2 point weapons to jump THAT much in effectiveness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.

It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).

Just so you don't feel like the only sane man screaming into the wind, yes, this strategy is ridiculous.

It's existence alone elevates SoB to overpowered threats.

However, you're not going to make any headway into this echo chamber of misery. The SoB blockade, especially on Dakka, cannot stand to hear that they are anything more than the single crappiest faction in any game system ever.

Literally the only thing stopping the army from showing up anywhere is the cost.