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 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"

Well, currently all I'm seeing is non-Sister players complaining about not getting what Sisters got.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"

Well, currently all I'm seeing is non-Sister players complaining about not getting what Sisters got.

Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.
Like the Engines fighting twice and getting a 5+++. Compare that to any other walker and it seems a bit silly.

Penitent Engines now? You know, the glass cannon that cannot survive a stiff breeze of bullets flying past it? Come on guys. Penitent engines are like -1 on every stat from Hellbrutes/Dreadnoughts. They have no kit options, so no lascannon + ML from 4' away, no... it is 8" heavy flamers + charge.

They have no rides, no pods, no protection, and 7" movement. No Acts of Faith to help push them forward, sinners don't get such nice things.

If a Penitent Engine dives into your lines and destroys your army, it is because you misplayed it and didn't prioritize it. You have every effort (1-2 turns) to do something about it before it arrives to kick your teeth in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.

And it is a guess - as you've not played the new rules yet.

And possibly not the old rules either. Lot of people complaining about penitents with double attacks and rerolls to hit as if they didn't already do that (and one particularly poorly thought out troll post on facebook complaining that three penitent engines were tabling his tau/guard gunlines on the first turn).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable

Of course. That's why we've been playing sisters all these years, the most broken of all tournament dominating factions. Makes total sense.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Penitent Engines now? You know, the glass cannon that cannot survive a stiff breeze of bullets flying past it? Come on guys. Penitent engines are like -1 on every stat from Hellbrutes/Dreadnoughts. They have no kit options, so no lascannon + ML from 4' away, no... it is 8" heavy flamers + charge.

They have no rides, no pods, no protection, and 7" movement. No Acts of Faith to help push them forward, sinners don't get such nice things.

If a Penitent Engine dives into your lines and destroys your army, it is because you misplayed it and didn't prioritize it. You have every effort (1-2 turns) to do something about it before it arrives to kick your teeth in.

Exalted. Penitent Engines are extremely limited in what they can do, the new rules seem appropriate.

A.T. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.

And it is a guess - as you've not played the new rules yet.

And possibly not the old rules either. Lot of people complaining about penitents with double attacks and rerolls to hit as if they didn't already do that (and one particularly poorly thought out troll post on facebook complaining that three penitent engines were tabling his tau/guard gunlines on the first turn).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable

Of course. That's why we've been playing sisters all these years, the most broken of all tournament dominating factions. Makes total sense.

They're the only army you can blame price on for them not showing up anywhere.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, currently all I'm seeing is non-Sister players complaining about not getting what Sisters got.

Thats because the first thoughts are always "oooh new shinies, why do I not have?" and "how will these new updates break my I Win button?"

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're the only army you can blame price on for them not showing up anywhere.

I would only ever blame price on discouraging casual adoption by new players.

Still the case for another year of course.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.

Dunno duncare, my point was that BlaxicanX was predicting the exact opposite of what's happening right now lol.
Looking forward to him predicting how we'll see the sun rise in the West and set in the East soon!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.

Dunno duncare, my point was that BlaxicanX was predicting the exact opposite of what's happening right now lol.
Looking forward to him predicting how we'll see the sun rise in the West and set in the East soon!

Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
No.

It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.

It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).

Yeah, it's absolutely insane. Definitely should be around 2cp or toned down to +1 pen.

I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"

We're already seeing it ITT. The new AoF look extremely powerful, but it's not good enough because it's not as reliable as orders.

And you plan on doing that by...taking the record yourself first? Because holy goodness, have I never heard anything as bad as this in all my time on Dakka, and I got some DOOZIES leading up to 8th's launch. Also, you're probably wrong? We only know what the top tier, hardest to pull of AoF is and it's...fight twice...in an army that's terrible at melee. For all we know the other AoFs could be: +1" range, +1 bravery, +3" movement, +1 to run, reroll charges(in an army that doesn't really fight).

Oh and another thing, this entire discussion of the strat STARTED because grey knights have a similar strat that, in a vacuum, isn't as good. The VERY CORE of this argument comes from 'b-but Sisters get that and marines only g-get this?! *UGLY SOBS*.




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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably because some stuff is over the top. I dunno, just a guess.

Dunno duncare, my point was that BlaxicanX was predicting the exact opposite of what's happening right now lol.
Looking forward to him predicting how we'll see the sun rise in the West and set in the East soon!

Well the Sisters fanbase on this forum is at minimum proving him right about how entitled they feel.

You are currently firing canonballs in a house made entirely out of sugar glass.

And how would you know? You and everyone else who have been squawking about sister being OP because they have Meltaguns or whatever, know almost nothing about how Sisters of Battle play, or where the army was before these changes, or even what the changes ARE. Most of you haven't even SEEN an SoB army in the wild, let alone played against or WITH one. On top of that, the book hasn't even been leaked yet. For all you...people know a SoB stormbolter could be 200pts and the other AoFs we haven't seen could be different variations of 'kill off your own units for no gain'.

You're all terrified an army you never had to think about before might have a toy you don't get to play with.

It's pretty clear who the entitled ones are, and it's not the people who waited YEARS and MULTIPLE EDITIONS for something as basic as an actual printed, not crammed into a white dwarf codex. It's the people who have spent the last SIX PAGES projecting and raging over ONE stratagem and a bunch of abilities you don't even know for sure that Sisters HAVE yet.

I want to add that I do apologize for my initial visceral reaction to the proposed AoF changes when they dropped, but I knew, even as I typed that I was likely wrong. Because that's what happens when you go off of your first knee-jerk reaction. I learned that lesson in the lead up to 8th. Hell, it was almost 12 hours before I realized that SoB probably weren't getting the same abilities they had in the old AoF system, outside of fight twice. That said, it doesn't seem that that realization has hit the non-sisters people yet.

For me, the most important detail of this reveal was that the beta dex will present both Ministorum and Sororitas units. That's pretty huge, because it means that the official dex will likely do the same.

This is kind of a shame, because the Ministorum need some really important fixes, and sharing space with Sororitas makes that less likely. The lack of generic HQ cripples the Ministorum. You get one detachment, and even then, only if you like Jacobus.

The Blackstone Fortress priest has 40k rules, but I haven't seen them, so I don't know if he's HQ or Elite. Even then, that's only 2 HQ units.

Also, the Dialogus, Mistress of Repentence, Hospitaler and Imagifier need to be able to keep up with the squads they buff.
If we get that fix, faith will still be workable, even as pool (especially if the Martyrdom strat carries over).

Damn I can't wait for this book!

PenitentJake wrote:
For me, the most important detail of this reveal was that the beta dex will present both Ministorum and Sororitas units. That's pretty huge, because it means that the official dex will likely do the same.

This is kind of a shame, because the Ministorum need some really important fixes, and sharing space with Sororitas makes that less likely. The lack of generic HQ cripples the Ministorum. You get one detachment, and even then, only if you like Jacobus.

The Blackstone Fortress priest has 40k rules, but I haven't seen them, so I don't know if he's HQ or Elite. Even then, that's only 2 HQ units.

Also, the Dialogus, Mistress of Repentence, Hospitaler and Imagifier need to be able to keep up with the squads they buff.
If we get that fix, faith will still be workable, even as pool (especially if the Martyrdom strat carries over).

Damn I can't wait for this book!

The Twitch TV leaks have said that the priest datasheet is getting split into an Elite and an HQ. There are also murmurings that the imagifier is going to be a unit upgrade now, rather than a Character.

I don't think that strategem looks that bad or game breaking. It basically creates one very, very powerful unit in a dominion squad fully kitted out with stormbolters which is relatively easy to handle and neutralise. It's indeed very good, but it simply can't be game breaking due to its limited scope and damage output. If there is a trick for the strategem to affect more than one squad at a time, then it would be very problematic.

Are sisters still 9?

 fraser1191 wrote:
Are sisters still 9?

No one knows yet. None of the stuff from the SoB book that wasn't in the preview or the CA Twitch coverage has leaked. They could be 45ppm now for all we know.


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epronovost wrote:
I don't think that strategem looks that bad or game breaking. It basically creates one very, very powerful unit in a dominion squad fully kitted out with stormbolters which is relatively easy to handle and neutralise. It's indeed very good, but it simply can't be game breaking due to its limited scope and damage output. If there is a trick for the strategem to affect more than one squad at a time, then it would be very problematic.

There isn't. So far. We also have no idea if the new AoF system actually buffs shooting at all either. The latest buzz is that most of the AoFs outside of the one shown are rather nerfed from their previous iterations.


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fe40k wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, yeah.

The way I see it, it isn't exactly Machine Spirit Resurgent.

It's a good effect for a small unit.


And this is absolutely not going to replace melta-dominions. We have no other tank-breaking option; especially with the change to act of faith. The answer is Doms carry melta or lose.

Yes you do, you have every other Imperial codex to draw units from.

Technically speaking everyone has every codex to draw units from, if you're going with the classic 'Why don't you just try NOT being your army?' route.

"Don't think orkz are strong enough on their own? Just play Eldar! I don't understand why you'd complain about Orkz when you can just buy all Eldar stuff and bring that!" lol.

Summarised from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRsWI76gqNw

<Orders> - one of
- 6+ FnP
- Faith roll +1
- Gain faith point when unit wiped out
- Gain faith point when enemy unit wiped out on 4+
- During first round of combat gain +1 S, +1 A
- Cannot lose more than 1 model to moral, and overwatch hits on 5+
(Celestine, hospitaller, dialogus don't get any of these)

<Faith>
Army has 3 faith points, plus 1 for every 10 full models
Each act of faith can only be attempted once per turn (per army, not per unit)
Roll equal or higher than target value to use power
Add +1 to tests of faith rolls for units with simulacrum imperialis (for 10 points per squad)
Vehicles don't have act of faith, nor to priests
-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase

<Faction Rules>
Shield of faith, 6++
Deny the witch on 1d6 (aka - a 1.3% chance of stopping the first smite each round)

<HQ>
<Celestine> 160pts +gemini, returns on the same spot rather than deepstriking, same old shield bonus, no faith bonus noted. Apparently weaker now as well (lost a wound).
<Canoness> - no sign of the illusive jump canoness
<Jacobus> - 50pts, +1 leadership banner
<Missionary> - potentially reduces losses from moral

<TROOPS>
<Battle Sisters> Sill 9 points each. Simulacrum is part of the unit

<FAST>
<Seraphim> - gain +1 shield of faith save rather than the old reroll. Rumours that hand flamers are back to d6 shots.
<Dominions> - nothing mentioned

<ELITE>
<Gemini> Are here now apparently, which means Celestines old squad-level bodyguard protection and faith sharing is gone and replaced with the regular 2+ mortal wound bodyguard. Also celestine can't revive them if they are all killed, only if at least one survives. So there is that.
<Celestians> - nothing mentioned
<Repentia> - reportedly still have the gimpy mini-eviscerators
<Mistress of Repentance> - nothing mentioned
<Preachers> - nothing mentioned
<Death Cultists> - don't take up slots if you have a priest
<Arco Flagellants> - don't take up slots if you have a priest
<Crusaders> - don't take up slots if you have a priest
<Hospitallers> - nothing mentioned
<Dialogus> - apparently an AoF reroll aura, and much more expensive now

<HEAVY>
<Retributors> - nothing mentioned
<Exorcists> - 125pts, up to D6 damage
<Penitent Engines> 5+ FnP, no longer needs to roll for the second attack. Still over 100pts each even after the heavy flamer points drop.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Early impressions:

Celestine has been pretty viciously nerf batted, her mobility is _gone_
The sisters alpha strike (such that it was) appears to be gone, down to the three scouting dominions. No fast moving seraphim, no double-shooting retributors, and the exorcist still languishes.
Points savings on meltaguns but seemingly little else. Perhaps enough across the board for an extra retributor squad.
No meaningful defense against psychic heavy armies.


Stratagems, relics, and points costs still to consider.

Well, I don't think there's need to worry that the Sisters will be gamebreakingly OP...

What Order is Celestine? Can she be used by any order without losing the boni?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:


Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.

I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.

Kinda like how Conscripts were NEVER a problem and Infantry still aren't a problem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?

Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?

The answer is things will either stay the same or go down. Anything going up in price has always been the exception, not the rule, and not being touched in the last Chapter Approved means we can say they'll stay the same price.

Now then, go ahead and actually answer my question in how many units went up in price when a codex was released. I'll be waiting.

its likely they will stay the same or go down - so one ot TWO options which odily enough are NOT the same.

"Sigh" - so you don't know any of the answers but claimed you did - well done.

We DONT KNOW how exactly the new AOF system works, WE DON:T KNOW what if any the Dominions have, do they have the same weapons choices, but hey you just keep making assumptions.

You don't even know what the CA Marine pts are now do you???

Well the leaks are coming in, so.. yeah. Chaos Marines apparently stayed the same price so we can expect Tactical Marines to do the same.

Also I did see Melta Guns somewhere go down to 14. So there's that.

And oh look we had some points increrases and a wound decrease on St C, Sisters same pts cost, Acts of Faith appear to be both crap and hard to do, we lost our old ones that did stuff. But hey Plasma guns (which we can't have went down for Feths sake)

Yeah but we got a single good strat and you want to take that away - sheesh

 Crimson wrote:
Well, I don't think there's need to worry that the Sisters will be gamebreakingly OP...

Going to play a few games of new sisters against index sisters once the book comes through - initial impressions are that even without stratagems and <orders> the index will hold the edge.

 Crimson wrote:
What Order is Celestine? Can she be used by any order without losing the boni?

Appears to be no <Order> for celestine or the non-militant units, so no restriction on taking them.

Lol at people worrying Penitent Engines will be OP. At best they can hide behind terrain to counter attack. At worst they are just like before, too slow to get into combat and die to medium S weaponry.
On top of that, the models are top candidates for being the hardest to put together, so no one actually has more than a few in their collection so it's unlikely you'll actually see them outside of proxies. Oh wait, they're still over 100pts and can't use faith, yeah you won't see them.

As for the larger leak drop from A.T.:
That's pretty rough.
Long range firepower is nearly halved. Rets lose double tap, and rule of 3 prevents adding any more long range firepower. And the super duper ultra strong strat that has everyone in the internet losing their minds won't work on them anyway.
Exorcists look like a no go still, unless they are super cheap?
Celestine looks questionable.
Faith powers looking decidedly lackluster, especially considering they aren't even guaranteed to work. Sure there's a 'fight twice' power, in many armies that would be good, in Sisters it's a tiny bit better than giving a 'fight twice' strat to Tau (that means not very good at all). Faith is roughly the power level of that terrible WD codex, decidedly less useful than it is currently or than it was in the Witchhunters Codex. Vessel of the Emperor looks way overcosted now if the actual faith powers are this bad.
Building a list to try to maximize faith sees like it might be a bad idea, especially considering you can only attempt each once per turn, don't imagine you'll run out of Faith points too soon, and even if you do, it wouldn't even hamper your plans that much.

Deny the Witch is still a complete waste of ink.

Still no way to handle a Knight without Souping, which is really the litmus test of a Codex these days. If you don't have a reasonable way to outlast or destroy a Castellan in a reasonable amount of time, then the Codex isn't going to hold up.

Hopes:
Maybe Immolators came way down in points and we can resurrect Immo Spam days?
Maybe this reveal isn't accurate?
Maybe more strats are really good?
Maybe all the units that were unmentioned are really good?
*Edit* nevermind, saw the full video, Hope is officially Dashed

All based on rumors still of course. Maybe it won't be this bad. Lists still looking like max Dom's, Seraphim (though not a priority due to mobility nerf), Rets (just with way less damage output), index Repressors, and BSS squads. Soup to fill in the massive deficiencies in long range firepower, close combat, and superheavy elimination.

<Warlord Traits>
- gain 1 faith point of a 4+ at the start of each turn (Celestine has this, seemingly replacing both her old optional trait and her automatic faith gen)
- reroll failed charge rolls for warlord, and re-roll failed wounds on the charge (Jacobus, he of no close combat ability, has this)
- re-roll failed moral in 6", and units in 6" can use warlords Ld for tests
- subtract 1 from Ld of enemy units within 6"
- shield of faith save for units within 6" of warlord is improved to 5+
- one extra deny the witch per turn (note that this is the 1d6 deny the witch - and the chance of denying a second smite in any given turn is _0%_), but it does also grant a 12" aura of -1 to psychic tests which is handy


<Relics>
- add 3" to the models aura effects
- power sword +2 strength, -3 save, 3 damage
- pistol 3, strength 5, -1 save, 2 damage
- 6" aura that improves the shield of faith deny rolls to 2d6 - a character castled amongst a group of units generates a fair number of 24" full deny rolls with this
- 6" aura that refunds faith points on 5+
- 3++, canoness only - yes, sisters get a mundane storm shield as a 1/army relic.


<Stratagems>
-generic extra relics
-3cps, share faith with units within 6"
-2cps, arcos automatically roll 3 on their d3 attacks, but have a one in six chance of being instantly killed (per model in the unit)
-1cp, deepstriking seraphim shoot twice after deepstriking, plus the bonus range for hand flamers for one of those
-1cp, reroll failed wound rolls against a psyker
-1cp, chance for repentia to inflict a mortal wound when killed in assault
-1cp, stormbolters in unit gain damage 2 and AP-2 for a single shot
-1cp, a unit with a melta, flame, and bolter weapon gains +1 to wound for a single shot (gimped VotLW)
-1cp, reroll wound rolls of 1 for a phase... but only after a successful faith test
-1cp, sacred banner grants +1 shield of faith for a single phase - but has to be spent pre-emptively at the start of the game and requires a simulacrum in the unit
-1cp, after failing a moral test, halve the number of casualties
-1cp, 4+ psychic deny
-1cp, gain d3 faith points when a character dies (or 3 if warlord)
-1cp, convert 1 cp into 1 faith point


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Further thoughts:
- the deny the witch of a cluster of units supported by the deny relic is quite impressive. A static gunline/castle could be generating a great many full deny rolls
- 6" faith sharing and potentially buffed exorcist damage further promotes castling
- a lot of very circumstantial and/or marginal stratagems. The previously powerful martyrdom stratagem has been replaced by a somewhat mediocre faith regen strat
- no mobility. The sisters are down to rhino rush without stratagems/faith, or a crawling 6" infantry advance with poor disengagement options.
- nothing reactive, aside from potential mortal wounds from repentia.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
Maybe all the units that were unmentioned are really good?

I've seen it suggested that arco-flagellants have -1 AP on their weapons. And exorcists may be up to d6 strength making them a gimpy but tough las-predator rather than a gimpy but tough las-razorback.

A.T. wrote:
...- one extra deny the witch per turn (note that this is the 1d6 deny the witch - and the chance of denying a second smite in any given turn is _0%_), but it does also grant a 12" aura of -1 to psychic tests which is handy...

Stack with a Culexis and suddenly 1d6 deny doesn't look as bad.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Stack with a Culexis and suddenly 1d6 deny doesn't look as bad.

The 1d6 deny is always bad as it only works when your opponent passes a test with a 5 (aside from the rare rating 4 powers) and then is only denied on a 6.
For for your basic smites this is a 1.3% chance against the first and a 0% chance against the second and subsequent casting.

The second part of the trait has potential though.

This proves GW vastly overvalues, at all times, a 6+++. Every faction with that is the the most disappointing.

Clear winners are the Overwatch + Morale bonus, the +1 to Acts, and lastly the melee one.

I gotta say I'm very disappointed with the new Act of Faith system - it adds another layer of bookkeeping for a benefit that is weaker than the previous system, and much less reliable. Even worse is that it scales with army size even worse than the previous Acts of Faith since it seems you can use each AoF only once per round.

Anything else is pretty much unchanged apart from having some pretty decent stratagems and one that seemed too cheap for what it potentially does, but since we don't get to double-tap in the shooting phase it's probably just a good one, not an OP one at 1CP


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

A.T. wrote:
...- one extra deny the witch per turn (note that this is the 1d6 deny the witch - and the chance of denying a second smite in any given turn is _0%_), but it does also grant a 12" aura of -1 to psychic tests which is handy...

Stack with a Culexis and suddenly 1d6 deny doesn't look as bad.

it doesn't look bad when compared to not having a Culexus, but it's still very unlikely - less than 5% probably.

nekooni wrote:
I gotta say I'm very disappointed with the new Act of Faith system - it adds another layer of bookkeeping for a benefit that is weaker than the previous system, and much less reliable. Even worse is that it scales with army size even worse than the previous Acts of Faith since it seems you can use each AoF only once per round.

Anything else is pretty much unchanged apart from having some pretty decent stratagems and one that seemed too cheap for what it potentially does, but since we don't get to double-tap in the shooting phase it's probably just a good one, not an OP one at 1CP

Acts of Faith gave Sisters some chance - they fethed that up and gave a few paltry toys in exchange.
Celestine is also much weaker.
Matyrdom fethed
Vehicles don't get Convinctions only Infantry.

Its a very very poor attempt at a Codex when you at ones they obviously gave a damn about - Dark Elder, Guard etc.

Tabletop Tactics batrep said Exorcists went down by 10pts and do d6 damage now.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Tabletop Tactics batrep said Exorcists went down by 10pts and do d6 damage now.

Ah another paltry toy - still pretty weak

 Mr Morden wrote:
Ah another paltry toy - still pretty weak

But essential. You'll not be able to chase down a fast opponent like DE now that hand of the emperor is gone, and the slower seraphim are going to cut down on the melta you can get in against knights and other big targets.

It's still some considerable way short of a predator against T8, but it's cheap. And frankly what else are you going to field if not taking allies.