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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Storm Bolter should have been more than 2 points in the first place, at least compared to Flamers. -_- Or perhaps more accurately, flamers should be less.
/quote]

no, no , no , no. Stay away from the SB cost. Keep your point adjustments to your army CP and unit costs. 2pts SB have a high enough cost.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It's existence alone elevates SoB to overpowered threats.

However, you're not going to make any headway into this echo chamber of misery. The SoB blockade, especially on Dakka, cannot stand to hear that they are anything more than the single crappiest faction in any game system ever.

You exaggerate [/unicron]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Let's say theoretically you had to do that for Plasma Guns, which are already a 13 point weapon. Yeah I would be annoyed because that's already a lot of investment.

You're instead paying for 2 point weapons to jump THAT much in effectiveness.

But you're paying CP to do it! And even with the Stratagem, the storm bolter is not nearly as good against Primaris Marines than the overcharged plasma.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Let's say theoretically you had to do that for Plasma Guns, which are already a 13 point weapon. Yeah I would be annoyed because that's already a lot of investment.

You're instead paying for 2 point weapons to jump THAT much in effectiveness.

But you're paying CP to do it! And even with the Stratagem, the storm bolter is not nearly as good against Primaris Marines than the overcharged plasma.

Once again you need to look at relative cost. You keep ignoring this for some reason.

The Sisters unit being outlined in this particular discussion is 60 points. Hypothetically, if they could equip Plasma, that's already more expensive than the former just by equipping ONE Plasma.

Also it isn't like the army won't be swimming in Command Points. They're easily an army that can get a Brigade without fielding a tax (though the Elite slot can be argued to mostly have tax units, depending on how saturated with Special Weapons their Command Squads get).

Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Lets just look at the space marine relic (primarchs wrath) It's a str 5 ap-1 flat 2 storm bolter. It costs 1 CP. This stratagem basically gives you 3-10 (assuming shooting twice or a lowly sisters unit) of those on demand for 1 cp a turn. Honestly - that is the second best relic in the space marine codex IMO also.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.

It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).

Just so you don't feel like the only sane man screaming into the wind, yes, this strategy is ridiculous.

It's existence alone elevates SoB to overpowered threats.

However, you're not going to make any headway into this echo chamber of misery. The SoB blockade, especially on Dakka, cannot stand to hear that they are anything more than the single crappiest faction in any game system ever.

Its a powwerful strat - definately - Is it limited to a single vehicle or 5 sisters per shooting phase - probbaly

does it need looking at - maybe

Do we need your childish screaming and insults from you - not really.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Yeah a discussion is good but howling to the moon when the beta isn't even released because one unit per army can use a stratagem effectively while cutting other needed options in the army (dominions are the usual source of melta with seraphims) is kinda... premature.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Once again you need to look at relative cost. You keep ignoring this for some reason.

I am not. Sixty points worth of IG plasma command squaders (so threeish guys, the full squad costs 76 points) causes the about same amount of damage to the Primaris Marines than the sister squad using this stratagem. So IG can achieve comparable damage without burning the CP, and are not limited to one squad per turn shooting this way either. So based on this I really don't buy the argument that for a cost of one CP per turn, one sister squad in the whole army achieving comparable damage per point ratio than IG can without any CP expenditure is OP.

dhallnet wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Yeah a discussion is good but howling to the moon when the beta isn't even released because one unit per army can use a stratagem effectively while cutting other needed options in the army (dominions are the usual source of melta with seraphims) is kinda... premature.

If you don't want uninformed, kneejerk reactions don't come to Dakka.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets just look at the space marine relic (primarchs wrath) It's a str 5 ap-1 flat 2 storm bolter. It costs 1 CP. This stratagem basically gives you 3-10 (assuming shooting twice or a lowly sisters unit) of those on demand for 1 cp a turn. Honestly - that is the second best relic in the space marine codex IMO also.

But Space Marine relics are bad. Still, for one CP you can shoot with it for the whole game, and the character is much easier to protect than a squad.

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets just look at the space marine relic (primarchs wrath) It's a str 5 ap-1 flat 2 storm bolter. It costs 1 CP. This stratagem basically gives you 3-10 (assuming shooting twice or a lowly sisters unit) of those on demand for 1 cp a turn. Honestly - that is the second best relic in the space marine codex IMO also.

But Space Marine relics are bad. Still, for one CP you can shoot with it for the whole game, and the character is much easier to protect than a squad.

And we aren't talking about a marine army which as access to a wide range of weapons. It's SoB.
Someone made some "quick maths" about the stratagem effectiveness against monsters with invuls which led him to consider the strat OP while disregarding that as of now, SoB has no real good options against this kind of model (you either dump as much heavy bolter shots as you can or waste melta with these).
Not saying marines are in a better place or whatever. Just that different stuff are different.

dhallnet wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Yeah a discussion is good but howling to the moon when the beta isn't even released because one unit per army can use a stratagem effectively while cutting other needed options in the army (dominions are the usual source of melta with seraphims) is kinda... premature.

I'm curious, people like Marmatag who immediately hit the wall over this; do you) Have you ever played with or against them before? Because you guys are missing out on some SERIOUS FACTIONWIDE LIMITATIONS that sisters deal with. To take the most advantage of the stratagem, an SoB army has to basically give up their ability to kill vehicles (thanks to the rule of 3). They also will only ever have 5 wounds worth of models to kill to stop them from doing it again (no real morale protection, have to jump out of their transport.). They'll also be isolated from the rest of the army, which means it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY they'll actually get to use an AoF, and even if they do that's likely going to cost MOST of the SoB player's AoF points.

Worrying about it for soup is silly. They won't have enough AoF points to reliably get an aof and SoB units are made of tissue paper.

It is an extremely good, extremely useful stratagem that might just barely make up for the fact that SoB Only have two types of weapons to shoot.

Hey guys, just a reminder that we don't have enough context to judge this strat. It is possible that SoB will be lacking in options to fulfill certain roles, and rely on strats like this to make up for it. That's just fine. You can't go comparing apples and oranges and all that.

That said, it is funny to see SoB players trying to pretend like this isn't really good. It IS really good. But we can't say if its too good or overpowered until we see the rest of the context.

I can't see how this Stratagem is breaking the bank when it only affects Storm Bolters for one unit, while people are used to seeing gobs of Disintegrator fire.

Does not compute.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.

We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.

We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.

I feel like GW need to do what PP do in regards to player beta testing and HEAVILY hold the weight of battle reports over that of random opinions.

The 40k community is prone to hyperbole at the best of times and I can already hear people furiously composing emails demanding they nerf the Blessed Bolt stratagem because maths.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Once again you need to look at relative cost. You keep ignoring this for some reason.

I am not. Sixty points worth of IG plasma command squaders (so threeish guys, the full squad costs 76 points) causes the about same amount of damage to the Primaris Marines than the sister squad using this stratagem. So IG can achieve comparable damage without burning the CP, and are not limited to one squad per turn shooting this way either. So based on this I really don't buy the argument that for a cost of one CP per turn, one sister squad in the whole army achieving comparable damage per point ratio than IG can without any CP expenditure is OP.

Three guys huh? Let's run that math real quick. In rapid fire that's 3.3 Marines dead from Plasma and 4.4 from the Storm Bolters. How many Lasguns you got after that to even up the numbers? With BS3+ that'll be 13 Lasgun shots needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.

We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.

We do have complete information in this case though. We have the cost of the Strategem and the squads available to use it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Once again you need to look at relative cost. You keep ignoring this for some reason.

I am not. Sixty points worth of IG plasma command squaders (so threeish guys, the full squad costs 76 points) causes the about same amount of damage to the Primaris Marines than the sister squad using this stratagem. So IG can achieve comparable damage without burning the CP, and are not limited to one squad per turn shooting this way either. So based on this I really don't buy the argument that for a cost of one CP per turn, one sister squad in the whole army achieving comparable damage per point ratio than IG can without any CP expenditure is OP.

Three guys huh? Let's run that math real quick. In rapid fire that's 3.3 Marines dead from Plasma and 4.4 from the Storm Bolters. How many Lasguns you got after that to even up the numbers? With BS3+ that'll be 13 Lasgun shots needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.

We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.

We do have complete information in this case though. We have the cost of the Strategem and the squads available to use it.

Do we now - so how much are Dominons? How many can be in a squad? How any Storm Bolters can they take, do they still have the same rules etc etc As seen by the Ork, units can go up in price as well as down.

We have the index squads but no stats or points for sisters units have been released that I have seen?

How do they interact with Acts of Faith - how many do we get per battle, do we roll on a D6 ? Unless you have Chapter Approved - if so please share

You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?

 Sim-Life wrote:
The 40k community is prone to hyperbole at the best of times and I can already hear people furiously composing emails demanding they nerf the Blessed Bolt stratagem because maths.

Was always going to be the risk of the beta codex.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Do we now - so how much are Dominons? How many can be in a squad? How any Storm Bolters can they take, do they still have the same rules etc etc As seen by the Ork, units can go up in price as well as down.

We have the index squads but no stats or points for sisters units have been released that I have seen?

How do they interact with Acts of Faith - how many do we get per battle, do we roll on a D6 ? Unless you have Chapter Approved - if so please share

Even if we take it at face value 5 storm bolters kills 2 primaris or puts 2 wounds on T7 3+ in short range for a CP. Very far from game breaking.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.

Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.

Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.

I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.

Is it underwhelming for the points though?

Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.

So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.

In a direct comparison like that, sure. However, the army doesn't otherwise have access to Razorbacks, squad carried plasma guns, heavy support units sporting quad lascannons, no super fast infantry units or deep strike, etc.

A T3 unit of sisters getting a strong bonus stratagem to otherwise lackluster weapons options, that have to be within 12" for optimal effect and can only be used once a turn in matched play, isnt going to terrify me just yet. Any opponent facing such a threat will quickly identify it, and it doesn't take much to mitigate or neutralize the one or two units in any army that will be able to really make good use of this stratagem.

If thats the most powerful thing this army will bring to the table, I don't think we'll see SoB breaking the meta much. Basically you're paying 1 CP to change the Storm Bolter into a Plasma Gun for a turn in terms of damage output against most targets. Powerful in certain circumstances, but within the greater context of the codex of the army and meta, probably not particularly astounding.

Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible, but within the context of sisters as we know them, what we have seen thus far, and the rest of the 8E meta, I'm not worried about it breaking the game.

Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.

Exorcists are literally the one thing in the entire army beyond Heavy Bolters able to reach out past 24", and the only one with big hard hitting ranged attacks aside from infantry carried meltaguns, and we don't know exactly how they'll end up. More to the point, they can't be expected to do everything all the time in every list.

1. Storm Bolters aren't lackluster. Arguably they're the only good Bolt weapon people try and take.

On things like Rhinos and the occasional squad leader? Yeah. As a squad upgrade special weapon for an infantry unit to rely on for its flexibility and major hitting power? Not so much.

2. The availability of Razorbacks is moot because you're only talking about the Assault Cannon variant. Otherwise, you don't take the other options (which the Immolator has three of, anyway). That's dishonest of you. Honestly, you should even be ashamed you tried to make that a point.

The point was that their equivalents are generally much more shorter ranged (particularly for optimal effectiveness) and/or ar less flexibly armed. The Immolator weapons options just arent that thrilling next to the RB, even setting points effectiveness aside.

3. Okay, they don't have Plasma Guns. It isn't like Marines get a cheap saturation of them; just because the option exists doesn't mean the option pops up a lot. That's why when people talk about nerfing Plasma Guns, all the complaints are related to the Scion platforms.

Sure, Marines dont get to take 50 plasma guns in a list. However, they have do have access to them, Sisters do not, and PG's are by far the most effective and flexible special weapon option in 8E in general. Sisters have no such access. Allowing one squad a turn to basically treat Storm Bolters as Plasma Guns, given the lack of such firepower otherwise, may not be the most horrific thing in the world.

4. What has a Quad Lascannon? The 500 point Spartan? Lol k

Land Raiders, Predators, Devastators?

5. Uh the unit of discussion is fast?

Dominions? They get a Scout move, but are not otherwise particularly fast.

Seripham are fast?

They are, but they also dont have access to Storm Bolters IIRC, and their special weapons options have a 6" range (and an optimal 3" range for inferno pistols).

We also don't know if they're gonna get a Deep Strike Strategem like everyone and their mother has at this point?

Possible, but not something previewed or indicated as yet.

Being able to rush Repressors up the field like a Rhino but not lose the firepower of the embarked squad makes even basic squads fast to engage?
The army is plenty fast.

I forgot about Repressors, I havent see one in person in years. That would make for a more effective platform to be sure. That said, for a squad of dominions and a repressor, we're talking about 150-160pts if the squad is barebones. They'll kill half a squad of marines or half a vehicle, and then be an immediate priority target for everything else they just moved into range of.

That said, I also doubt anyone writing rules anywhere is considering the Repressor, GW seems to insist on pretending FW units dont exist when writing rules

6. T3 isn't a disadvantage because of damage output for the price. Units pay a lot for the additional Toughness because GW doesn't price durability correctly.
I can either have a Marine with T4 and a Bolter, or a Dominion with T3 and a Storm Bolter. Seeing as dead units don't fight back, the latter is a superior choice.

If all we're doing is looking at those two in a vacuum 12" apart, sure, the Sisters win every time, no argument from me. Again however, within the broader context of the two armies, I'm not super worried. Only one unit a turn can make use of that stratagem, the units will have to be kitted to make use of it, you'll know which units are capable of making use of it, the units have to get within assault range to optimally function, and that makes concentrating on, avoiding or mitigating that relatively easy.

Im also ok with the marines getting a price break.

7. This is only a preview. We actually don't know what else the army is bringing, sure.
I want you to think about the escalation with the last few codices though and get back to me on what we can reasonably expect though.

Honestly, given that this is going to be another CA book for Sisters, with their codex history through the editions, and against the backdrop of the larger 8E metagame, i expect we will see an overall mediocre army with one or two savage Soup combos with a crutch or two (maybe blessed bolts) keeping monosisters viable enough to not be total garbage. I don't expect them to upend the metagame.


We'll see how it shakes out, but im not ready to freak out about Blessed Bolts just yet. Its possible im wrong, but I just dont feel its all that bad with the context available.

8. They're still cheap at 140 points to supplement anything moving forward. They don't need to do ALL the work. This isn't a camping army like Guard.

The issue is that their other units dont really replicate that particular kind of fire, multishot AP reducung multidamage S7/8 firepower that does the lifting in many top meta lists today. More to the point, as they currently stand they're pretty garbage, and GW has failed to fix garbage units more than once before

The closest Sisters can get to Exorcist type firepower outside of it is Meltaguns. Nobody is making ultrascary armies built around meltaguns to my knowledge.

Yeah, I said awhile back that SB Dominions feels like a trap. An army that has to do all of its dirty business up close (within 12" across a WIDE portion of the army) cannot suffer losing one of their BEST heavy threat removal units (Dominions with Meltaguns in a Transport) to be downgraded into a glorified chaff cleaning unit. You're not taking on any really heavy threats in a meaningful way with 5x4 STR 4 -2 AP 2 D shots without an available source of rerolling those wound rolls. Most tanks that they're chasing at T7, so that's wounding on 5s... quick maths say that 33% miss, 66% then fail to wound... you're forcing what? 4-5 -2 saves for 2 damage? Most of those things have a 3+, so they save 1-2 of them? Congrats, you just paid 1 CP and did 4 damage to a T5-7 vehicle. Even worse vs. T8.

I would possibly be concerned if Celestians got the option to take a Special Weapon + Melee Weapon. 5 of them popping out of a transport with a Canoness can dish out some withering fire before diving into melee and causing more havoc. But that is a delayed engagement vs the speed of Dominions, so your opponent won't have to immediately deal with it (because Seraphim and Dominions are a thing). Even then, it is 1 unit army wide. Hardly broken, and hardly out of line vs what can be done with Veterans of the Long War (Obliterators with 12 shots dropping down with Veterans of the Long War + Endless Cacophony, going to wreck A LOT harder than anything Sisters can dream of). The points are much higher there, but the idea is to draw comparisons between Veterans and Blessed Bolts.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.

We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.

Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?

Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?

 Quickjager wrote:


Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.

I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus guys. BETA codex. B-E-T-A.

- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.

Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?

I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).

Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.

We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.

Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.

Or when people lost their shirt over Khorne Berserkers?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Even if we take it at face value 5 storm bolters kills 2 primaris or puts 2 wounds on T7 3+ in short range for a CP. Very far from game breaking.

No math in your background? It's 6 wounds vs T7 3+.

RE: It's just Beta!
It's never to early to provide feedback to a design team which moves this slowly.